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(io9)   How to power a starship with an artificial black hole. NERDGASM   (io9.com) divider line 51
    More: Interesting, Dyson Cap, micro black hole, quantum systems, nearest stars, kinetic energy, fusion reactors, speed of light, energy consumption  
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3357 clicks; posted to Geek » on 17 Jan 2014 at 8:39 AM (27 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-17 08:12:04 AM
4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-01-17 08:42:21 AM
Romulans did it.
 
2014-01-17 08:42:52 AM
static3.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-01-17 08:44:25 AM
Done in one.
 
2014-01-17 08:46:31 AM
A typical SK weighs more than two Empire State Buildings, and has a power output of approximately 129 petawatts (1 petawatt = 10 quadrillion watts). This is 10 million times the July 2013 power consumption record of New York City!

Wow, petawatts of energy!

Alternatively, a Dyson Cap that absorbs radiation that would be fed into a heat engine, would have a lower mass, but would also deliver an inferior acceleration.

And we'll feed those petawatts into a heat engine, albeit at a lower efficiency, but it's tons of energy!

Furthermore, a gamma-ray laser is currently the only conceivable technology that could be used to make a Schwarzschild Kugelblitz. However, such a laser's output frequency would need to exceed current technology by more than a billion times. Its pulse duration would have to be a hundred billion times shorter than that of lasers today. The total energy of a single laser pulse would need to be equivalent to the energy the sun puts out in 1/10 of a second.

... which is 10^31/8640000, or 1.16*10^24, or 1000000000 petawatts. To get 129 petawatts.
ಠ_ಠ
 
2014-01-17 08:47:03 AM
"... from an evaporating black hole, a so-called Schwarzschild Kugelblitz drive. "

uh, yeah, can we get the guys down in marketing to come up with a better name, please?
 
2014-01-17 08:53:16 AM

Theaetetus: A typical SK weighs more than two Empire State Buildings, and has a power output of approximately 129 petawatts (1 petawatt = 10 quadrillion watts). This is 10 million times the July 2013 power consumption record of New York City!

Wow, petawatts of energy!

Alternatively, a Dyson Cap that absorbs radiation that would be fed into a heat engine, would have a lower mass, but would also deliver an inferior acceleration.

And we'll feed those petawatts into a heat engine, albeit at a lower efficiency, but it's tons of energy!

Furthermore, a gamma-ray laser is currently the only conceivable technology that could be used to make a Schwarzschild Kugelblitz. However, such a laser's output frequency would need to exceed current technology by more than a billion times. Its pulse duration would have to be a hundred billion times shorter than that of lasers today. The total energy of a single laser pulse would need to be equivalent to the energy the sun puts out in 1/10 of a second.

... which is 10^31/8640000, or 1.16*10^24, or 1000000000 petawatts. To get 129 petawatts.
ಠ_ಠ


Yeah. This whole article amounts to "ridiculous theoretical and completely impractical technology that will never be implemented because it is completely theoretical and impractical, but we'll half-ass like it may happen in the future because .... science."

I get that most breakthroughs start out similarly, but this is beyond ridiculous. As mentioned, some form of fusion drive is the most likely candidate for any long haul space propulsion system in the foreseeable future rather than trying to generate and then basically surf the edge of a black hole.
 
2014-01-17 08:54:22 AM

RobotSpider: "... from an evaporating black hole, a so-called Schwarzschild Kugelblitz drive. "

uh, yeah, can we get the guys down in marketing to come up with a better name, please?


Sounds like Jewish vagina exercises.
 
2014-01-17 08:58:53 AM

RobotSpider: "... from an evaporating black hole, a so-called Schwarzschild Kugelblitz drive. "

uh, yeah, can we get the guys down in marketing to come up with a better name, please?


I'm particularly fond of "Portable Portzebie".
 
2014-01-17 09:02:13 AM

SMB2811: [static3.wikia.nocookie.net image 730x544]


You beat me to it! That was my first thought. A singularity core that the Romulans use in their Warbirds.
 
2014-01-17 09:02:32 AM

jboy: Yeah. This whole article amounts to "ridiculous theoretical and completely impractical technology that will never be implemented because it is completely theoretical and impractical, but we'll half-ass like it may happen in the future because .... science."


I see these things more like thought-experiments. Not likely to happen, but it helps us explore the design-requirements of building an interstellar vehicle. It's disappointing that it's so impossible, practically speaking, but at least they're talking about it.  And yes, fusion is the most likely candidate for GEN1 propulsion for those vehicles. But between the time a GEN1 ship leaves SOL system and arrives at the next nearest star, it's likely GEN2 drives will be developed and get another ship there before the GEN1 ship arrives. Imagine being the captain of the first ship to leave, and the second ship to arrive.
 
2014-01-17 09:12:55 AM

RobotSpider: Imagine being the captain of the first ship to leave, and the second ship to arrive.


"Being stuck in this tiny ship was worth it, because I'll plant my flag on this new plant and declare myself sovereign! I'll be rich beyond my wildest dreams! ... hey, what's that in orbit?"
 
2014-01-17 09:14:26 AM

RobotSpider: "... from an evaporating black hole, a so-called Schwarzschild Kugelblitz drive. "

uh, yeah, can we get the guys down in marketing to come up with a better name, please?


"All ready got one, you see."
 
2014-01-17 09:17:54 AM
How do you make a Starship to travel faster than light?

You point forward and say "Engage" according to Captain Picard (or Patrick Stewart if you prefer).

/Just need to boost him in to orbit and the universe is ours!
 
2014-01-17 09:26:12 AM

mike_d85: RobotSpider: "... from an evaporating black hole, a so-called Schwarzschild Kugelblitz drive. "

uh, yeah, can we get the guys down in marketing to come up with a better name, please?

Sounds like Jewish vagina exercises.


Sounds like the old WWII German armored vehicle naming.  The Sonderkraftfahrzeug 251 halftrack was called the Sdkfz 251.

Maybe we can call this the SsKb 1
 
2014-01-17 09:48:12 AM
I though you powered Starship with awful 80's Rock
 
2014-01-17 09:48:56 AM

Primitive Screwhead: I though you powered Starship with awful 80's Rock


*thought

/goddammit so much..
 
2014-01-17 09:50:18 AM
I'd still prefer to stick to a Matter-Antimatter drive core. At least that way if you lose control of the reaction, you know exactly what is going to happen.

/kaboom
 
2014-01-17 10:01:05 AM

jboy: Theaetetus: A typical SK weighs more than two Empire State Buildings, and has a power output of approximately 129 petawatts (1 petawatt = 10 quadrillion watts). This is 10 million times the July 2013 power consumption record of New York City!

Wow, petawatts of energy!

Alternatively, a Dyson Cap that absorbs radiation that would be fed into a heat engine, would have a lower mass, but would also deliver an inferior acceleration.

And we'll feed those petawatts into a heat engine, albeit at a lower efficiency, but it's tons of energy!

Furthermore, a gamma-ray laser is currently the only conceivable technology that could be used to make a Schwarzschild Kugelblitz. However, such a laser's output frequency would need to exceed current technology by more than a billion times. Its pulse duration would have to be a hundred billion times shorter than that of lasers today. The total energy of a single laser pulse would need to be equivalent to the energy the sun puts out in 1/10 of a second.

... which is 10^31/8640000, or 1.16*10^24, or 1000000000 petawatts. To get 129 petawatts.
ಠ_ಠ

Yeah. This whole article amounts to "ridiculous theoretical and completely impractical technology that will never be implemented because it is completely theoretical and impractical, but we'll half-ass like it may happen in the future because .... science."

I get that most breakthroughs start out similarly, but this is beyond ridiculous. As mentioned, some form of fusion drive is the most likely candidate for any long haul space propulsion system in the foreseeable future rather than trying to generate and then basically surf the edge of a black hole.


I look forward to what NASA and JPL manage to come up with with their warp field experiments. It seemed absolutely ridiculous when I read the papers back in 2012 but they recently made some announcements some possibly successful experiments, so who knows.

/Also, if you're having a hard to get around the German name, just call it the Lightning Ball Drive.
 
2014-01-17 10:18:23 AM

imashark: I'd still prefer to stick to a Matter-Antimatter drive core. At least that way if you lose control of the reaction, you know exactly what is going to happen.

/kaboom


And you can always eject the core and safely get away in time for it to explode... then some how replace it in the next episode.

Or if you manage to freeze time during a core breach. You could draw a happy face in it.
 
2014-01-17 10:25:32 AM

Gaddiel: jboy: Theaetetus: A typical SK weighs more than two Empire State Buildings, and has a power output of approximately 129 petawatts (1 petawatt = 10 quadrillion watts). This is 10 million times the July 2013 power consumption record of New York City!

Wow, petawatts of energy!

Alternatively, a Dyson Cap that absorbs radiation that would be fed into a heat engine, would have a lower mass, but would also deliver an inferior acceleration.

And we'll feed those petawatts into a heat engine, albeit at a lower efficiency, but it's tons of energy!

Furthermore, a gamma-ray laser is currently the only conceivable technology that could be used to make a Schwarzschild Kugelblitz. However, such a laser's output frequency would need to exceed current technology by more than a billion times. Its pulse duration would have to be a hundred billion times shorter than that of lasers today. The total energy of a single laser pulse would need to be equivalent to the energy the sun puts out in 1/10 of a second.

... which is 10^31/8640000, or 1.16*10^24, or 1000000000 petawatts. To get 129 petawatts.
ಠ_ಠ

Yeah. This whole article amounts to "ridiculous theoretical and completely impractical technology that will never be implemented because it is completely theoretical and impractical, but we'll half-ass like it may happen in the future because .... science."

I get that most breakthroughs start out similarly, but this is beyond ridiculous. As mentioned, some form of fusion drive is the most likely candidate for any long haul space propulsion system in the foreseeable future rather than trying to generate and then basically surf the edge of a black hole.

I look forward to what NASA and JPL manage to come up with with their warp field experiments. It seemed absolutely ridiculous when I read the papers back in 2012 but they recently made some announcements some possibly successful experiments, so who knows.

/Also, if you're having a hard to get around the German name, just call it the Lig ...


This. This is where we should funnel our research, not some singularity-based power hog like the article describes. When I heard about the possibly successful warp bubble experiments, I knew that history had been made. Now we need more tests and a group of engineers to apply what we have learned.
 
2014-01-17 10:28:22 AM

RobotSpider: "... from an evaporating black hole, a so-called Schwarzschild Kugelblitz drive. "

uh, yeah, can we get the guys down in marketing to come up with a better name, please?


www.cliffdweller.com
 
2014-01-17 10:28:57 AM

Sybarite: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 772x397]


I was going to use the exact same image.


The first half of that movie is so amazing at creating tension and fear... its second half is ok though not nearly as good.
 
2014-01-17 10:30:41 AM
The article is incorrect in Labelling Voyager 1 as the fastest man made object at 18 miles / per second. Oct 2013 Juno (Bound for Jupiter) became the fasterst man made object at 24.16 miles per second.
 
2014-01-17 10:31:19 AM
Yeah, too bad there's something called the Laws of Thermodynamics that make this completely impractical.

If you can get more energy out of your fuel (the SK) than it took to make your fuel, congratulations! You just invented perpetual motion.
If you can't, you might as well just burn whatever fuel you were going to use to make your new fuel.
 
2014-01-17 10:33:22 AM

bill4935: RobotSpider: "... from an evaporating black hole, a so-called Schwarzschild Kugelblitz drive. "

uh, yeah, can we get the guys down in marketing to come up with a better name, please?

[www.cliffdweller.com image 300x74]


How about the INFINATE IMPROBABILITY DRIVE!!!!
 
2014-01-17 10:40:50 AM
Aren't Minbari warships also powered by artificial black holes?

/Thanks YouTubers for all the B5 clips you post.
 
2014-01-17 10:50:23 AM

Facetious_Speciest: Romulans did it.


You meant Rassilon and Omega, right?
 
2014-01-17 10:52:46 AM

nmrsnr: Yeah, too bad there's something called the Laws of Thermodynamics that make this completely impractical.

If you can get more energy out of your fuel (the SK) than it took to make your fuel, congratulations! You just invented perpetual motion.
If you can't, you might as well just burn whatever fuel you were going to use to make your new fuel.


So why do we make gasoline from crude petroleum? Why don't we just burn the crude oil? It can be used for fuel. Oh that's right crude petroleum is not very efficient. Sure we spend a shiat ton of energy making gasoline, but it is compact and efficient fuel. We may spend a shiat ton of energy making a black hole reactor, but it sure beats powering rocket ships with liquid or solid carbon based fuel.
 
2014-01-17 11:00:03 AM

yves0010: imashark: I'd still prefer to stick to a Matter-Antimatter drive core. At least that way if you lose control of the reaction, you know exactly what is going to happen.

/kaboom

And you can always eject the core and safely get away in time for it to explode... then some how replace it in the next episode.

Or if you manage to freeze time during a core breach. You could draw a happy face in it.


photos1.blogger.com
 
2014-01-17 11:02:11 AM
So why do we make gasoline from crude petroleum? Why don't we just burn the crude oil? It can be used for fuel. Oh that's right crude petroleum is not very efficient. Sure we spend a shiat ton of energy making gasoline, but it is compact and efficient fuel. We may spend a shiat ton of energy making a black hole reactor, but it sure beats powering rocket ships with liquid or solid carbon based fuel.

Here's the problem with your analogy:

Black holes evaporate over time, that's how you get the energy out of them. And they get evaporate because of the vacuum of space so you can't store them. If you make it, it will evaporate in X time, you you'd have to make them on the spot.

To complete your analogy, it would be like building cars with tanks for crude oil and a refinery so that they can make gasoline for the engine. In that case you bet your ass it'd be more efficient to just burn the crude.
 
2014-01-17 11:10:36 AM
The fastest object ever built by the human species is the Voyager 1 space probe, moving at a speed of 18 miles per second. If it were heading toward Proxima Centauri (which it's not), Voyager 1 would reach our nearest stellar neighbor in about 80,000 years.

WRONG! The NASA Juno probe is currently traveling at 24.17 miles per second... And for that matter, both the Helios I and II probes that went to the Sun managed to hit 41.67 miles per second.
 
2014-01-17 11:46:16 AM

nmrsnr: So why do we make gasoline from crude petroleum? Why don't we just burn the crude oil? It can be used for fuel. Oh that's right crude petroleum is not very efficient. Sure we spend a shiat ton of energy making gasoline, but it is compact and efficient fuel. We may spend a shiat ton of energy making a black hole reactor, but it sure beats powering rocket ships with liquid or solid carbon based fuel.

Here's the problem with your analogy:

Black holes evaporate over time, that's how you get the energy out of them. And they get evaporate because of the vacuum of space so you can't store them. If you make it, it will evaporate in X time, you you'd have to make them on the spot.

To complete your analogy, it would be like building cars with tanks for crude oil and a refinery so that they can make gasoline for the engine. In that case you bet your ass it'd be more efficient to just burn the crude.


Except the decay rate, according to the linked material in the article, is years, where as the time needed to generate the black hole is fractions of a second. At least if I understand their explanation of laser ignition properly.
 
2014-01-17 11:50:42 AM

Gaddiel: I look forward to what NASA and JPL manage to come up with with their warp field experiments. It seemed absolutely ridiculous when I read the papers back in 2012 but they recently made some announcements some possibly successful experiments, so who knows.

/Also, if you're having a hard to get around the German name, just call it the Lightning Ball Drive.


Wait, what.

Link please?
 
2014-01-17 11:54:12 AM
LHC's "micro black holes" turned out to be no real threat, but I thought part of the reason for this was that even if they were formed, they would evaporate almost instantaneously. Since this drive seems to be powered by a micro black hole, how would you keep it from just evaporating?
 
2014-01-17 12:21:14 PM
An exploding star in the act of becoming a black hole, ripped from its orbit and suspended in a permanent state of decay.

/obvious really
 
2014-01-17 12:38:52 PM

Millennium: LHC's "micro black holes" turned out to be no real threat, but I thought part of the reason for this was that even if they were formed, they would evaporate almost instantaneously. Since this drive seems to be powered by a micro black hole, how would you keep it from just evaporating?


You don't. The evaporation provides the thrust. Hawking Radiation is a feature not a bug in this design. Plus the author is talking about a black hole with enough energy/mass to take ~5 years to evaporate.
 
2014-01-17 12:56:11 PM

Felgraf: Gaddiel: I look forward to what NASA and JPL manage to come up with with their warp field experiments. It seemed absolutely ridiculous when I read the papers back in 2012 but they recently made some announcements some possibly successful experiments, so who knows.

/Also, if you're having a hard to get around the German name, just call it the Lightning Ball Drive.

Wait, what.

Link please?


http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/technology/warp/warpstat_prt.htm
"Is there any work being done to search for these breakthroughs? Yes, but not much."
 
2014-01-17 01:10:20 PM
A couple things, first off, how are they proposing to turn that captured radiation from a dyson shell into thrust? They don't even appear to hand-wavey the whole thing, they just take it for granted... " it would absorb the radiated energy of the Schwarzschild Kugelblitz. This would provide forward thrust for the starship" Um, how?

Secondly, the Empire State building is not a legitimate unit of measurement. It's not in anyway useful as comparison.
 
2014-01-17 01:43:54 PM

Felgraf: Gaddiel: I look forward to what NASA and JPL manage to come up with with their warp field experiments. It seemed absolutely ridiculous when I read the papers back in 2012 but they recently made some announcements some possibly successful experiments, so who knows.

/Also, if you're having a hard to get around the German name, just call it the Lightning Ball Drive.

Wait, what.

Link please?


It does a good job describing the theory, but they don't mention how they actually implement it.

Warp Field Mechanics 101 
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20110015936_201 10 16932.pdf

Warp Field Mechanics 102: Energy Optimization
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20130011213_201 30 10494.pdf
 
2014-01-17 01:46:21 PM

Gaddiel: Felgraf: Gaddiel: I look forward to what NASA and JPL manage to come up with with their warp field experiments. It seemed absolutely ridiculous when I read the papers back in 2012 but they recently made some announcements some possibly successful experiments, so who knows.

Link please?

It does a good job describing the theory, but they don't mention how they actually implement it.

Warp Field Mechanics 101 
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20110015936_201 10 16932.pdf

Warp Field Mechanics 102: Energy Optimization
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20130011213_201 30 10494.pdf


One more:  http://io9.com/5963263/how-nasa-will-build-its-very-first-warp-drive
 
2014-01-17 01:50:11 PM
"Liberate Tutemet Ex Infernis"
 
2014-01-17 05:08:01 PM
yay, pseudoscience!

My favorite parts were the part where they felt it necessary to describe what a proton was, and the part where they said "a Dyson Shell will almost certainly remain technologically impossible for our civilization for the foreseeable future" followed immediately by a link claiming "How to build a Dyson sphere in five (relatively) easy steps."

highly amused
 
2014-01-17 05:54:25 PM

Devil's Advocaat: An exploding star in the act of becoming a black hole, ripped from its orbit and suspended in a permanent state of decay.

/obvious really


Doctor?
 
2014-01-17 10:55:29 PM
Schwarzschild radius for fat people is slightly larger than the normals.
 
2014-01-17 11:48:01 PM
"Despite being so miniscule, Schwarzschild Kugelblitzes are incredibly heavy. A typical SK weighs more than two Empire State Buildings, and has a power output of approximately 129 petawatts (1 petawatt = 10 quadrillion watts). This is 10 million times the July 2013 power consumption record of New York City! "

I don't know how much this is. How many Milwaukee's of March 1965 is that?
 
2014-01-18 01:13:48 AM

Gone to Plaid: Devil's Advocaat: An exploding star in the act of becoming a black hole, ripped from its orbit and suspended in a permanent state of decay.

/obvious really

Doctor?


Doctor Who?
 
2014-01-18 10:11:57 AM

mrlewish: "Despite being so miniscule, Schwarzschild Kugelblitzes are incredibly heavy. A typical SK weighs more than two Empire State Buildings, and has a power output of approximately 129 petawatts (1 petawatt = 10 quadrillion watts). This is 10 million times the July 2013 power consumption record of New York City! "

I don't know how much this is. How many Milwaukee's of March 1965 is that?


I can only speculate, as that is the year before I was born, but..allowing for advances in industry and economic inflation..I posit it would be exactly 2.475 "Friday Night Milwaukee's (Best)" for me..

/maaaaaaaybe an even 2.5, on a particularly good night..
 
2014-01-18 01:58:51 PM

shifter_: How about the INFINATE IMPROBABILITY DRIVE!!!!


Really?

Gaddiel: Gaddiel: Felgraf: Gaddiel: I look forward to what NASA and JPL manage to come up with with their warp field experiments. It seemed absolutely ridiculous when I read the papers back in 2012 but they recently made some announcements some possibly successful experiments, so who knows.

Link please?

It does a good job describing the theory, but they don't mention how they actually implement it.

Warp Field Mechanics 101 
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20110015936_201 10 16932.pdf

Warp Field Mechanics 102: Energy Optimization
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20130011213_201 30 10494.pdf

One more:  http://io9.com/5963263/how-nasa-will-build-its-very-first-warp-drive


Still no cure for exotic matter.
 
2014-01-18 02:07:48 PM

MaliFinn: yay, pseudoscience!

My favorite parts were the part where they felt it necessary to describe what a proton was, and the part where they said "a Dyson Shell will almost certainly remain technologically impossible for our civilization for the foreseeable future" followed immediately by a link claiming "How to build a Dyson sphere in five (relatively) easy steps."

highly amused


You didn't read carefully.  They said that a Dyson shell around our sun was pretty much impossible to construct, but that the same concept applied to a smaller energy source (like a tiny black hole) was one way to extract thrust from a SK.
 
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