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(Huffington Post)   Drug companies won't let you use their products to execute people anymore, do you C) mix up your own brew and hope it doesn't leave people gasping and choking for 15 minutes before they die   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 189
    More: Sick, Dennis McGuire, federal public defender, TV star, official receiver, Hard Rock Hotel, Howard K. Stern, Biggie Smalls, Allen Bohnert  
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9552 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Jan 2014 at 2:59 PM (27 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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2014-01-16 03:03:46 PM
14 votes:
QFTA:

A federal judge sided with the state but acknowledged the new method was an experiment.

Please have this judge removed from the bench. This is an idiot. A cruel, nasty idiot.
2014-01-16 03:05:09 PM
11 votes:
"And more importantly, the people of the state of Ohio should be appalled at what was done here today in their names."

As a resident of Ohio, I'm more appalled at what this jerk did to warrant the death penalty.
2014-01-16 02:53:31 PM
9 votes:
So why don't we just overdose them with morphine?  We know it works, and we know it's painless, and it's less messy than my idea of using explosive lenses to implode the heads of criminals like the pit of an atomic bomb, which, btw, is quite humane, because the explosive shockwave is faster than nerve conduction speed, so it's like instantly turning off a light.  They'd never even know when the end happens, because they'd be dead before the sensations could reach their brains.
2014-01-16 03:15:31 PM
8 votes:
I'm honestly a bit baffled by people who think torture is ok as long as you're just torturing bad guys.  Torture is not ok.  Ever.  No matter what.  It's TORTURE.
Kill them quickly and painlessly and move on.

/Though if it were up to me we'd have a very very high burden of proof that the person was guilty before actually executing them.   Can't absolutely prove that the person did it, no execution.
2014-01-16 03:05:17 PM
8 votes:
So, does he usually snore?

I wonder of the pregnant lady he raped and stabbed to death suffered more or less than he did.....
2014-01-16 03:06:27 PM
6 votes:
Gee. I wonder how long the pregnant woman had to suffer at his hands before she punched the clock? I guess that doesn't matter to the FARK.com brigade huh?
2014-01-16 03:33:28 PM
5 votes:
When was the last time a rich person was executed for their crimes in the US?

Think about that.
2014-01-16 02:41:42 PM
5 votes:
so, both cruel AND unusual.

farking barbaric.
2014-01-16 03:39:58 PM
4 votes:

Random Anonymous Blackmail: So you wanted him to die in a more humane way than his victim.. F that.

He does not deserve the right to die a comfortable, painless death.


The 8th Amendment to the United States Constitution says you are 100% wrong.  When the state is executing a horrible criminal for his crimes, it is SUPPOSED to be akin to putting down a rabid dog.  Permanently removing someone from society for a crime so horrible that he should pay for it with his life.  Cold and emotionless.  It is not supposed to be farking torture.  You want to torture a man to death for being a living piece of garbage?  Move to the Congo.  I'm sure there are loads of acceptable targets for you to whit your bloodlust on there.

And before you ask why I care so much about this...thing instead of its victim, I don't.  He can burn in Hell for all I care.  But if we allow the state to start torturing people who it deems fit to death, well, that's it then.  We will have become no better than the worst totalitarian dictatorships of history.  It's easy to say that a "man" who raped and murdered a pregnant woman has such a fate coming, but who's to say that the acceptable range of criminals to inflict such a punishment on doesn't grow?

/of course, some people actually think that capital punishment shouldn't be something our government is in the process of doling out
//One can have all the compassion in the world for the victim while still upholding the mores of civilization.  Despite what you might have been told, you do not have to let yourself become a monster to fight monsters.
2014-01-16 03:07:39 PM
4 votes:
I think a bullet behind the ear should the SOP. Cheap, easy, and plenty of people in prisons who would do it for an extra tray at dinner.

If there is any travesty here it's the forgotten pain, anguish, and fear a woman felt as she was raped, beaten, and murdered. While pregnant with child. FFFFFF*ck this animal. SHE is the victim, not him.
2014-01-16 03:01:43 PM
4 votes:

dittybopper: So why don't we just overdose them with morphine?  We know it works, and we know it's painless, and it's less messy than my idea of using explosive lenses to implode the heads of criminals like the pit of an atomic bomb, which, btw, is quite humane, because the explosive shockwave is faster than nerve conduction speed, so it's like instantly turning off a light.  They'd never even know when the end happens, because they'd be dead before the sensations could reach their brains.


Mystery to me. Mind you, I don't really favor the death penalty - even if some folks richly deserve it. The methods they use now are just plain idiotic.
2014-01-16 02:39:51 PM
4 votes:
I miss the guillotine.
2014-01-16 05:10:28 PM
3 votes:

aspAddict: If you don't want to die a potentially slow, painful, agonizing death then perhaps you might try a little less rapey-stabby shenanigans. Actions do have consequences, you know.


Chances are this guy just fell asleep in his own awareness. Versed also causes anterograde amnesia after administration, so he wouldn't have been aware of anything going on afterwords if they gave him the massive dose I suspect they did.

In combination with the hydromorphone in high doses, despite the unpleasant physical appearance of agonal response, (which used to be masked by a paralytic drug - which also masked if they were underdosed, which was very VERY bad.), he didn't know anything was happening to him. The lights were off and no one was home.
2014-01-16 03:33:09 PM
3 votes:

lennavan: It does when you're guilty of raping and murdering a pregnant girl and the family of the victim supports it.


No, it doesn't, and your idea of how a justice system ought to function is insanely terrifying. Thank god nobody ever asked you how things should work and let's hope nobody ever does.
2014-01-16 03:09:59 PM
3 votes:
Good.    He killed a pregnant woman with a knife!     I am sure that he was as concerned about her last moments as some of you fools will be for his.

I don't care if they let pigs eat him to death....don't kill people if you don't want to be killed.
2014-01-16 03:09:09 PM
3 votes:
" put McGuire to death for the 1989 rape and fatal stabbing of a pregnant woman"

Can't really muster a shiat to give.
2014-01-16 03:09:03 PM
3 votes:
Agonal breathing while someone is dying. I am shocked. SHOCKED.

Honestly though, the guillotine was a marvelous invention. Less than 1 second and it was over, guaranteed. Even firing squad can't guarantee that. PLUS they're great for politicians.
2014-01-16 03:07:47 PM
3 votes:
Fkin barbaric is raping and stabbing an 8 months pregnant woman.

So..im ok with this.
2014-01-16 03:05:46 PM
3 votes:
I certainly know we wouldn't try to farking grow up and not satiate our bloodlust through executing people! We have murderboners to beat off, god damn it!
2014-01-16 03:05:19 PM
3 votes:
Rope, guillotine, firing squad, nitrogen narcosis chamber (apparently no pain like cyanide, no toxic cleanup afterward).  How hard is this people?
2014-01-16 03:02:57 PM
3 votes:

dittybopper: So why don't we just overdose them with morphine?  We know it works, and we know it's painless, and it's less messy than my idea of using explosive lenses to implode the heads of criminals like the pit of an atomic bomb, which, btw, is quite humane, because the explosive shockwave is faster than nerve conduction speed, so it's like instantly turning off a light.  They'd never even know when the end happens, because they'd be dead before the sensations could reach their brains.


And now I need to go re-write my living will...
2014-01-16 07:58:42 PM
2 votes:
...I'm sorry, have we  completely lost our knowledge of poisons as a society? Holy fark, if you're gonna kill 'em, do it fast, painless, problem-free.
2014-01-16 07:10:41 PM
2 votes:

udhq: You don't know the level of suffering he went through.


Ah, but I do. Because I know how versed and hydromorphone works. Something you clearly have no clue about, since you keep arguing that he "suffered".

udhq: And even if he was minimally conscious of it, HIS EXECUTION TOOK 15 FARKING MINUTES.


And that's the thing: he wasn't conscious. His body was on autonomic autopilot. Any consciousness or awareness was obliterated the moment the  ASSLOAD OF VERSED AND DILAUDIDcrossed his blood-brain barrier and shut down his higher nervous system functions. Everything that was witnessed was not his desperate, conscious attempt at hanging on to life, it was his body's basic reflexes towards losing muscle control of his airway and carbon dioxide buildup in his blood. To be quite frank: his death was far more humane than even your beloved family pet would get

udhq: Once again, you're clearly running your mouth off without having read the article, where the judge himself admitted that this was a non-consenting medical experiment on a human subject.


I'll be quite frank with you. I honestly don't care what you or the judge says. There was nothing "experimental" about the drugs being used. In fact, megadoses of versed and dilaudid have been used for years as assisted suicide drugs in countries which allow it, and hospice agencies have been using the same cocktail for years to relieve patient anxiety and awareness of oxygen hunger and eliminate the "suffocation" feeling of hypercarbia in patients who are dying. Doctors use megadoses of these drugs frequently to ease suffering in patients who are being removed from ventilator support for end-of-life.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

udhq: That's a major human rights abuse in and of itself, and I can't help but get chills at people like you who are ok with abuses of human rights, as long as they are done to what you judge to be the right subset of people.


Well, let me tell you how much your moral disgust at the fact I'm OK with the death penalty being selectively applied with incredible oversight and strict criteria, which NEEDS to be reformed.

I'm going to get off here, go have a drink or two, and enjoy some yummy mexican food. And then sleep soundly tonight knowing I give you chills.
2014-01-16 05:42:36 PM
2 votes:

for good or for awesome: I heard in Russia they told you they needed to take your picture.  Put you in a little booth and tell you to look at the "camera".  Can't get much more "humane" than that.


You know what they do in Russia?

They put you in prison.  The government of Russia doesn't murder their own citizens in cold blood.  That's right, the United States is more barbaric than Russia.

It's well past time to end murder by the state forever.
2014-01-16 05:19:30 PM
2 votes:

Serious Post on Serious Thread: There are way too many fark ups and injustices perpetrated by the 'justice' system. And the disparate application by race and class is a given.


Uh, the guy was white, and aside from the overwhelmingly scientifically defensible evidence of his guilt, he confessed to the crime while not under any duress. In fact, his race and class gave him a great chance of NOT getting the death penalty for his crime.

I get what you are saying, but this guy is the exception to all of your rules you just stated.
2014-01-16 05:14:46 PM
2 votes:

js34603: Sorry he didn't suffer enough for some of you or the method of his death was not entertaining enough or cheap enough. I'll continue to absolutely abhor the fact we trust the government to kill people.


To be quite frank, in this case I'm quite OK with the death penalty being used. Not only was there overwhelming evidence of his guilt and his own confession that was NOT elicited under duress, the heinousness of the crime would indicate that there was no hope of rehabilitation for this guy.

In that case, this guy died more humanely than your loved family pet would if you took him to the vet to be put down.
2014-01-16 05:11:55 PM
2 votes:

Dr Dreidel: Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't TFA say that they used different concentrations for this cocktail than are used in hospitals? If that's the case, while interviews with patients who've taken the same drugs might be informative, until we have someone experience the cocktail (at close to those concentrations/dosages) for themselves and report back, we'll have to use auxiliary methods to figure out what is "felt" during the execution.

But generally speaking, we want executions to be as quick and painless as possible. We don't execute criminals to sate peoples' bloodlust.

// and there is something exceedingly perverse, IMO, about a state "winging it" at an execution, or fighting just as hard as they can to kill people in untested ways


as someone who has spent a lot of time in ORs I can tell you that this execution method was essentially general anesthesia induction minus the breathing tube and ventilation. Basically when an anesthesiologist puts you to sleep they either give you either enough sedative drug to make you stop breathing on your own prior to intubation, or they give you enough to snow you, and then give you a paralytic agent which stops your breathing and relaxes your airway.  You will occasionally see non-paralyzed patients, gasp and agonally breath right prior to intubation. They look uncomfortable, but they are so deep they have no recollection of the event.

I guarantee you this guy were he intubated, ventilated and given narcan (essentially saved from the massive over dose he was given) he would have woken up with not the foggiest memory of discomfort.


Not endorsing institutional killing, just saying this hysteria over the method is baseless.
2014-01-16 04:39:44 PM
2 votes:

Kit Fister: Beyond that, I see death as simply a form of cold storage. I don't promote death as a means of revenge, but simply as a means of permanently removing the person from the gene pool and freeing up a cell, guards, and resources for others.



"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."
-- J.R.R. Tolkien
2014-01-16 04:16:50 PM
2 votes:
I don't mean to harsh anyone's mellow in here, but to be perfectly fair, his symptoms were exactly what happens when a person is given a massive overdose of narcotics, namely snoring and agonal respiration. And something tells me that he wasn't aware of anything around him, let alone the fact he was choking to death.

The only difference between this and previous executions is that they don't use the paralytic to mask the symptoms, and the potassium bolus to cause cardiac arrest.

Sounds like the State got exactly what they wanted.

However, it's hard for me to feel sorry for a man who raped and murdered a pregnant woman with a knife. He still died far easier than she did.
2014-01-16 04:09:28 PM
2 votes:

theflatline: [...]  He then explained that because she was so pregnant, it was difficult to engage in sex with her, so instead he anally sodomized her. Joy then became "hysterical," which made McGuire nervous. He ended up killing Joy for fear that he would go to jail for raping a pregnant woman.



dameron: [...] One day the U.S. will get over this bloodthirsty urge and join the rest of the civilized world. Hopefully this thread will be archived somewhere so the grandchildren of certain posters in this thread can see what kind of savages they were when they were young and stupid.


No nation is civilized if they DON'T execute a man for raping and killing a woman who is eight months pregnant.  If you can't execute scumbag subhumans like that then your society is not civilized.
You don't value the life of your own citizens.
2014-01-16 04:04:16 PM
2 votes:

Marcus Aurelius: WTFDYW: r1niceboy: WTFDYW: I'm ok with this jpg.

But are you absolutely confident that every single person in the US on death row is there legitimately? Would you be okay with doing this to someone because the cops wanted to get back to their donuts, and the DA was making a run for congress?

When the DNA says you did it, you DID it. Thanks for playing. Please come back later.

You didn't answer the question.

So here's another one: is it OK to only execute poor people?


Do you know of any rich people who have raped and murdered eight month pregnant women? Rich people are rich because they have more to do than kill and maim people.
2014-01-16 03:48:14 PM
2 votes:
i.chzbgr.com
2014-01-16 03:47:52 PM
2 votes:

ShadowKamui: Just gas them w/ nitrous or CO2


Carbon monoxide works better, faster and leaves their skin a cheery pink colour for the cameras.  There is a  slight chance of convulsions, but those will happen after brain death which usually occurs within twenty to thirty seconds.  The best thing about carbon monoxide is that fools the body into thinking it's getting enough oxygen thus there is no gasping or hyperventilating etc.  Helium is another usable option, but the convict should be mildly sedated first.  These methods mind you are far too humane for the typical death row inmate, but they are no muss and no fuss, which is what the politicians would want in order to maintain their rep as tough but fair.

source: google carbon monoxide poisoning  or for helium look up, "The final exit"
2014-01-16 03:44:52 PM
2 votes:

Kit Fister: ElwoodCuse: Certainty of guilt does not automatically make the death penalty "right"

I think you're going to find that the people who support the death penalty fairly unwavering in their agreement with it.

Like me. There is nothing wrong with killing an attacker, a rapist, or a murderer where proof of guilt is established beyond the shadow of a doubt, and all due care has been exhausted to ensure that nothing is left unchecked.

Likewise, if I see someone raping a woman, or molesting a kid, or doing some other thing of that nature, I will sure as hell have no second thoughts about killing him to stop it.


I'm 100% with you.  I have no moral problem with killing someone to stop a crime in action.

However, I have a huge problem allowing the state to kill.  It's not about compassion or "sinking to their level", it's a simple matter of mistrust.
2014-01-16 03:34:50 PM
2 votes:

dittybopper: So why don't we just overdose them with morphine?  We know it works, and we know it's painless, and it's less messy than my idea of using explosive lenses to implode the heads of criminals like the pit of an atomic bomb, which, btw, is quite humane, because the explosive shockwave is faster than nerve conduction speed, so it's like instantly turning off a light.  They'd never even know when the end happens, because they'd be dead before the sensations could reach their brains.


The hydrocodone they used is 10 time more powerful than morphine. The procedure should OD him on a powerful sedative, use artificial ventilation to keep him oxygenated, and then stop the heart with sodium bicarbonate solution. After a few minutes the ventilation can be stopped because his brain will be dead.

People rarely ever die in the peaceful way they depict in movies. Almost everyone with at least a bit of a function nervous system will have an agonal response similar to the one described in the FA. This is why executions should not have non-professional witnesses. Certainly not family.
2014-01-16 03:33:13 PM
2 votes:

dittybopper: So why don't we just overdose them with morphine?  We know it works, and we know it's painless


Or put them in an airtight room and flood it with Carbon Monoxide. They'll painlessly pass out in seconds without even knowing the execution has started, and we know it's painless from testimony of people who have survived Carbon Monoxide poisoning, and die very shortly after.

Wait 30 mins or so, vent the room and send the body over to the morgue.
2014-01-16 03:31:05 PM
2 votes:

Joe Blowme: Dog Welder: "And more importantly, the people of the state of Ohio should be appalled at what was done here today in their names."

As a resident of Ohio, I'm more appalled at what this jerk did to warrant the death penalty.

THIS times eleventy billion


I don't understand this at all. You are not responsible for what this piece of shiat did. You are responsible for what the State does in your name. He acted as a monster so the State in our name should also act as a monster? That lowers us to his level. I want my government to be better than this piece of shiat.
2014-01-16 03:29:30 PM
2 votes:
I'm against the death penalty, not because I have any issues with a piece of shiat like McGuire dying a prolonged, agonizing death, but because the justice system is so incompetent and corrupt.
Bf+
2014-01-16 03:27:57 PM
2 votes:

dittybopper: So why don't we just overdose them with morphine? We know it works, and we know it's painless


I think you just answered your own question.
The purpose of the death penalty isn't to remove a person from society or some such bullshiat.  It is to extract tortuous vengeance upon the person and their loved ones.  Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.
2014-01-16 03:24:44 PM
2 votes:

EyeballKid: The Muthaship:
I wonder of the pregnant lady he raped and stabbed to death suffered more or less than he did.....

What does it matter, since killing him will magically bring her back to life?

Oh wait...


No, but it does pretty much guarantee he'll never, ever do it again.
2014-01-16 03:23:52 PM
2 votes:
I don't support the death penalty and I don't feel sorry for the guy.

I do, however, feel sorry for a society that thinks that any human being can be used as an experiment.
2014-01-16 03:21:46 PM
2 votes:
Ohio officials used intravenous doses of two drugs, the sedative midazolam and the painkiller hydromorphone, to put McGuire to death for the 1989 rape and fatal stabbing of a pregnant woman, Joy Stewart.... a newlywed who was eight months pregnant at the time of her death

So a guy who raped and murdered a girl who was 8 months pregnant suffocated for 15 minutes before he died and I'm supposed to feel bad for him?  I'll see what I can do for you but so far I'm coming up empty here.
2014-01-16 03:21:16 PM
2 votes:
He raped and killed a pregnant woman? fark him.
2014-01-16 03:21:05 PM
2 votes:

Lando Lincoln: The Muthaship: So, does he usually snore?

I wonder of the pregnant lady he raped and stabbed to death suffered more or less than he did.....

Nobody was ever wrongfully convicted. Nope.


he wasn't.
2014-01-16 03:18:25 PM
2 votes:
Funny. I thought the article was about what the state of Ohio did to one of its prisoners. I guess the article was about what a murderer did to victims.

Oops. Same thing.

/the killer was an complete animal. The state of Ohio doesn't need to sink to his level. You can't hold a man (and in this case his actions tend to denigrate that label) unless you linger there with him. More importantly, as other people have posted in this thread, capital punishment has killed many innocent people. The criminal justice system has imprisoned innocent people for sentences of decades, sometimes long enough for them to die in prison. Capital punishment needs to be banned. I don't mind long sentences but when prosecutors can only get elected governor if they are "hard on crime" you are going to have innocent people murdered by the state.
2014-01-16 03:18:03 PM
2 votes:

WhyKnot: Lando Lincoln: The Muthaship: So, does he usually snore?

I wonder of the pregnant lady he raped and stabbed to death suffered more or less than he did.....

Nobody was ever wrongfully convicted. Nope.

DNA and he admitted to it.   Try again.


This isn't about him, or his case. It's about a system.
2014-01-16 03:16:40 PM
2 votes:

Running a-puck: I'm honestly a bit baffled by people who think torture is ok as long as you're just torturing bad guys.  Torture is not ok.  Ever.  No matter what.  It's TORTURE.
Kill them quickly and painlessly and move on.


I'm honestly baffled by people who think murder is OK as long as you're just murdering bad guys.
2014-01-16 03:15:18 PM
2 votes:
So you wanted him to die in a more humane way than his victim.. F that.

He does not deserve the right to die a comfortable, painless death.
2014-01-16 03:14:36 PM
2 votes:
My inner monologue:

"Gasped and snorted for 15 minutes.....that's awful, he doesn't.....raped and stabbed a pregnant woman....fark  him."
2014-01-16 03:13:17 PM
2 votes:

Lando Lincoln: The Muthaship: So, does he usually snore?

I wonder of the pregnant lady he raped and stabbed to death suffered more or less than he did.....

Nobody was ever wrongfully convicted. Nope.


DNA and he admitted to it.   Try again.
2014-01-16 03:13:04 PM
2 votes:
Dennis McGuire was convicted for the 1989 rape and fatal stabbing of 22-year-old Joy Stewart, who was newly married and pregnant. He tried to have his execution stayed because the jury never heard the full extent of his abuse as a child.

Uh huh. I think that's not a good enough reason to appeal, or change the sentence he received...

Good riddance.

Next!
2014-01-16 03:12:18 PM
2 votes:
My other headline....

pbs.twimg.com


VS


fc03.deviantart.net
2014-01-16 03:11:58 PM
2 votes:
If we're GOING to have the death penalty then it really behooves us to do things as humanely as possible. Gasmask seems like a good solution -- give 'em nitrous & oxygen and then cut the oxygen.
2014-01-16 03:10:25 PM
2 votes:
boisdejustice.com
Quick, Painless, Flawless.  Why fark around?  If drug companies dont want to be associated with executions then we have plenty of alternatives.  Make sure to publisize it and hold up a sign that says "This needlessly brutal execution brought to you by big pharma, be sure to thank them!"
Also bring back Burning at the stake for kiddy diddlers, we could run round the clock footage of all the states executions on its own cable channel with comercials to make up the cost.

Would be the most viewed channel in farking history, and you farking know it.
2014-01-16 03:10:04 PM
2 votes:

nmrsnr: dittybopper: So why don't we just overdose them with morphine?

Or knock them out with it and use cyanide, that'll kill you way faster than 15 minutes.


It sounds like the guy was unconscious and the snorting and gasping were the body's involuntary reactions.

If this is true then he wasn't aware of any suffering, but the procedure/drugs should be changed.

I feel more empathy for the witnesses.
2014-01-16 03:09:23 PM
2 votes:

The Muthaship: So, does he usually snore?

I wonder of the pregnant lady he raped and stabbed to death suffered more or less than he did.....


Nobody was ever wrongfully convicted. Nope.
2014-01-16 03:08:49 PM
2 votes:

jigger: He was convicted 25 years ago? The swift sword of justice, I guess.


You have the right to a speedy trial (though that seems to be going out the window thanks to budget cutbacks in both prosecution and public defenders), and the right to appeal your sentence. The good thing to do is drag it out for all the people who may have been falsely convicted, because I know Texas has killed a couple of innocent people.
2014-01-16 03:07:07 PM
2 votes:
The Muthaship:
I wonder of the pregnant lady he raped and stabbed to death suffered more or less than he did.....

What does it matter, since killing him will magically bring her back to life?

Oh wait...
2014-01-16 03:04:05 PM
2 votes:

dittybopper: So why don't we just overdose them with morphine?


Or knock them out with it and use cyanide, that'll kill you way faster than 15 minutes.
2014-01-16 03:00:38 PM
2 votes:
Piece of rope works well and cheaper too.
2014-01-16 11:02:26 PM
1 votes:

PsiChick: ...I'm sorry, have we  completely lost our knowledge of poisons as a society? Holy fark, if you're gonna kill 'em, do it fast, painless, problem-free.


The difficulty in that is pretty much the same difficulty as the problem we have in "dual use" of surgical pharmaceuticals in executions, only multiplied.

A big part of the problem is that a number of countries that have prohibited the death penalty are also signatories to an international convention that essentially prohibits giving tools to "do the deed" to a country which still has the death penalty (kind of like how we have sanctions on countries that tend to engage in chemical weapons).  This is why Ohio is having to go to a Versed/Dilaudid cocktail in the hope of finding SOME drug combo to execute people with that will NOT result in triggering a de facto international sanction program that won't cause the loss of pharmaceutical agents for everyone--execution or otherwise.

(As I noted above, basically executions used to use a propofol/paralytic "two-step", occasionally followed up with a potassium chloride injection to the heart to trigger a heart attack.  First they got the propofol to knock them out, then the paralytic, then (in states that did the KCl injection) the injection.  This stopped because in essence the makers of propofol worldwide AND the makers of the paralytics (usually succhinylchloride) threated to block all drug sales to the US of those medicines UNLESS their use in executions was banned; seeing as those are very common agents in use in surgery, this would be a Bad Thing all around.)

The last agent we used as a "single use" chemical poison in capital punishment was the good old gas chamber, which was rapidly phased out after a remarkably similar fiasco in its last known use (where a guy took a good fifteen minutes to die, at least seven of which consisted of him literally beating his head bloody against the restraint chair) to what happened in Ohio.  It was based on pretty much an execution method known since Germany in the 40s; the gas chamber typically used hydrogen cyanide, aka Zyklon B.

Of course, one of the reasons it's hard to find single-use poisons for capital punishment is because the most effective poisons tend to be extremely strictly regulated because they have a bad tendency to be diverted towards the sorts of thing that is getting the Syrian government in worlds of trouble now (and got Germany in scads of trouble back in 1917).  Cyanide is very restricted now; many effective poisons like strychnine can be argued to be cruel and unusual due to the convulsions caused; the same can be argued for, say, the use of something like 1080 (sodium fluoroacetate, still used in the US and particularly in Australia and New Zealand for "predator control" aka poisoning the shiat out of wild canids).  Quite a lot of the really quick poisons--those that can be described literally as "human Raid bug spray"--tend to be extremely strictly regulated as chemical warfare agents, with the production of even the precursors regulated more strictly than, say, the basic ingredients of how to make meth.  Some others are just as dangerous to the person administering the poison as to the death row inmate...

Basically, yes, we've gotten very good (as a species) on how to kill each other chemically.  Finding ways to kill each other chemically (even if it's a case of someone gone Old Yeller) in a way that meets the muster of the Constitution and the Supreme Court's judgement (not to mention federal district courts) that it's not a particularly cruel or unusual method of execution...that's trickier.  (Pretty much it's now felt that both Death By Lungfuls-O-Zyklon-B and Death By Holy-Shiat-Livewire-Laxative-Invented-As-A-Fark-You-To-Niki-Tesla no longer meet Constitutional muster for Not Being Cruel or Unusual.  Hence why we did the propofol two-step at first, and why (after the non-capital-punishment countries threatened NO MOAR SURGERY DRUGS FOR YOU) Ohio went to the Versed/Dilaudid Cocktail.  This gives you the basic difficulty level here; unlike with critters, there really ARE no agents with an actual Prescribing Information indication for "putting down murderous farkwits".)

Even using animal euthanasia drugs isn't really a solution--if memory serves me right (and it well may not) there WAS a state that was essentially resorting to Fatal-Plus (which is a common veterinary euthanasia solution consisting of essentially One Metric Shiatload of Barbituates; pretty much ALL the major vet euthanasia agents are One Metric Shiatload of Barbituates, sometimes mixed with phenytoin to prevent agonal convulsions)...until the maker pretty much threatened to quit selling ANY barbituate-based drug to US companies unless they made sure it was NOT diverted to capital punishment.  (Seeing as barbituates are used occasionally in surgery and more frequently in treatment of status epilepticus...again, Not A Good Thing.)
2014-01-16 10:57:42 PM
1 votes:

Dr Jack Badofsky: No, vengeance is not part of any justice system. Depending on the society,  punishment might be, but punishment is not and never has been vengeance. Vengeance is punishment without proof, without checks, and on the basis of emotion. Punishment without vengeance is what can be shown as demonstrably based on non-emotional criteria and is for society's supposed benefit.

Then, by your own definition, what this guy got was punishment.  There was no uncertainty, no lack of proof, no lack of checks.  It was proven he did it, someone said he admitted it, and apparently, the evidence points to him as the only suspect.  Staggering how people can feel more sorry for a murderer than the multiple victims he killed that we're no threat to him at all.  If this was drug dealers killing drug dealers, I bet you'd not be so critical.  This guy is worse than them.  By far, yet people still defend him.  Why?


Yes, what he got was punishment. However, there are different  types of punishment.  If the USA wants to introduce painful deaths instead of painless standardized deaths as part of the punishment,  then the USA must differentiate each type, class them according to crime, and otherwise fit them into our justice system (and find reasonable arguments that it should be that way). No one is defending this guy; they  are saying he was given  more punishment than he should have been by law. That's a problem. Why? Well, if you get pulled over for speeding, you don't want to end up in jail for two months, right? Yeah, that's why adding on punishments outside of the law is bad.
2014-01-16 10:33:34 PM
1 votes:

TheWhoppah: PsiChick: TheWhoppah: You equate the infliction of pain with uncivilized behavior.  You mention vengeance as if it were a dirty word.  Yet you've offered nothing in support of either proposition.   Vengeance is the root of all justice.  Citizens cede their natural right to seek justice to the government in return for orderly professional-grade high quality vengeance.  This is a fundamental element of the social contract between man and government.

...That's a  really interesting take on it, but most of us cede our right to vengeance to the government because we recognize we might one day be on the wrong end of the stick, and would prefer the law to treat us fairly, so we acknowledge other people have to be treated fairly too. That's called 'justice'. I mean,  you might be doing that, but I don't think the rest of us are...

So if you cede your right to vengeance to the government, why do you suppose government-administered vengeance is, or should be, distinct from government sponsored justice?  I say that vengeance is the most basic element of justice and that, without vengeance there is no justice.  Mercy is primarily a private concern rather than a function of government sponsored justice.


No, vengeance is not part of any justice system. Depending on the society,  punishment might be, but punishment is not and never has been vengeance. Vengeance is punishment without proof, without checks, and on the basis of emotion. Punishment without vengeance is what can be shown as demonstrably based on non-emotional criteria and is for society's supposed benefit.
2014-01-16 10:29:30 PM
1 votes:

TheWhoppah: udhq: There seems to be some debate as to whether this situation could be considered "cruel", but even if it's not, you can't deny that gurgling and gasping for air for 15 minutes on an experimental drug cocktail that has never been successfully used in an execution is certainly unusual by any measure.

OK so it seems clear that you agree that unusual punishments are not unconstitutional if they are not also cruel. So whats your angle?  Are you saying that any punishment that causes death is inherently cruel, even if there is no pain or consciousness?  Are you suggesting we can infer pain from the reflexive noises he produced?


Look up the definition of the word "cruel".  I'll bet that it doesn't include the words "unless they deserve it" at the end.
2014-01-16 10:12:31 PM
1 votes:

Fano: PsiChick: TheWhoppah: You equate the infliction of pain with uncivilized behavior.  You mention vengeance as if it were a dirty word.  Yet you've offered nothing in support of either proposition.   Vengeance is the root of all justice.  Citizens cede their natural right to seek justice to the government in return for orderly professional-grade high quality vengeance.  This is a fundamental element of the social contract between man and government.

...That's a  really interesting take on it, but most of us cede our right to vengeance to the government because we recognize we might one day be on the wrong end of the stick, and would prefer the law to treat us fairly, so we acknowledge other people have to be treated fairly too. That's called 'justice'. I mean,  you might be doing that, but I don't think the rest of us are...

What about Batman? He is Vengeance. He is THE NIGHT.


/Snark on:

Gotham City is not a how-to manual

/snark
2014-01-16 10:04:34 PM
1 votes:

TheWhoppah: You equate the infliction of pain with uncivilized behavior.  You mention vengeance as if it were a dirty word.  Yet you've offered nothing in support of either proposition.   Vengeance is the root of all justice.  Citizens cede their natural right to seek justice to the government in return for orderly professional-grade high quality vengeance.  This is a fundamental element of the social contract between man and government.


...That's a  really interesting take on it, but most of us cede our right to vengeance to the government because we recognize we might one day be on the wrong end of the stick, and would prefer the law to treat us fairly, so we acknowledge other people have to be treated fairly too. That's called 'justice'. I mean,  you might be doing that, but I don't think the rest of us are...
2014-01-16 08:48:36 PM
1 votes:

OldDog: Fkin barbaric is raping and stabbing an 8 months pregnant woman.

So..im ok with this.


I would agree with you, and if I had a chance to look at the evidence against him, I might still. However, there have been SO MANY people released from death row (and regular prison) because they were falsely convicted that I simply can't automatically agree.

As for the horrific nature of the crime, granted it is horrific, and if he really did it, he should have been put to death 25 years ago. HOWEVER, when I think about the horrendous nature of a crime I immediately think of the West Memphis Three case. Three teens were convicted of an absolutely brutal rape and slaughter of three little 8-year-old boys. Everyone wanted to kill them with their bare hands....but it turned out that the three teens did NOT kill those little boys and the cops farked up the case so badly that the actual perpetrator (or perpetrators) will never be caught.

So HORRIFIC CRIME does not equal KILL ANYONE IN RETALIATION. You have to get the right ones, and I'm not sure in every instance that that's the case.

West Memphis Three has tempered my urge for revenge quite a bit.
2014-01-16 08:33:26 PM
1 votes:

TheWhoppah: PsiChick: TheWhoppah: PsiChick: ...I'm sorry, have we  completely lost our knowledge of poisons as a society? Holy fark, if you're gonna kill 'em, do it fast, painless, problem-free.

Painless?  Why?  In case we got the wrong guy?  Screw that!  Don't kill him unless you are sure you got the right guy.  If he did something worthy of execution, it might as well hurt.  This painless crap seems like hedging your bets against wrongful execution.  We shouldn't kill anyone that we are not willing to stake to a bed of hungry ants.

Because the point of the death penalty isn't the painfulness of the death, it's just the death. Introducing painfulness means you have to legislate how painful deaths are for various crimes and test each individual method against the Eighth Amendment. Easier to just poison 'em quickly.

The death penalty is a penalty.  A punishment. Its OK for punishment to hurt.  When the 8th amendment was written people were still beheaded, drawn and quartered and boiled in oil. Those deaths may be cruel but they were not necessarily unusual. On the other hand hanging and firing squad were classy and humane ways to die.


Well, if you want to argue that we should kill people in painful ways, you go right ahead, but I and the rest of civilized society will be more than slightly disgusted by that notion. We're a civilized people, not a mob out for vengeance.
2014-01-16 08:14:02 PM
1 votes:

TheWhoppah: PsiChick: ...I'm sorry, have we  completely lost our knowledge of poisons as a society? Holy fark, if you're gonna kill 'em, do it fast, painless, problem-free.

Painless?  Why?  In case we got the wrong guy?  Screw that!  Don't kill him unless you are sure you got the right guy.  If he did something worthy of execution, it might as well hurt.  This painless crap seems like hedging your bets against wrongful execution.  We shouldn't kill anyone that we are not willing to stake to a bed of hungry ants.


Because the point of the death penalty isn't the painfulness of the death, it's just the death. Introducing painfulness means you have to legislate how painful deaths are for various crimes and test each individual method against the Eighth Amendment. Easier to just poison 'em quickly.
2014-01-16 07:05:27 PM
1 votes:
Eye for an eye. Yeah!!!

www.esquire.com
2014-01-16 07:03:51 PM
1 votes:

udhq: Banned on the Run: udhq: WTFDYW: Gee. I wonder how long the pregnant woman had to suffer at his hands before she punched the clock? I guess that doesn't matter to the FARK.com brigade huh?

So great, everything worked out: the guy is dead, and the state of Ohio and all of their residents have lowered themselves to his level.  Congratulations to all.

No.  He killed someone worthy of life.  The state of Ohio killed someone not worthy of life.

And you're not at all worried that people like yourself feel entitled to decide who is and who isn't worthy of life?

I'm sure he made a very similar calculation towards his victim.


Did you read the facts of the case?  If you think there is no difference between the value of his life and his victim's, then I can't help you.
If you lack the ability to make a moral judgment or to tell the difference between right and wrong, I'd like to know what city you're in so I can stay away.  You are as sociopathic as the murderer.
2014-01-16 07:01:12 PM
1 votes:

IRQ12: Not a fan of intentionally causing harm but I could give a fark less if this person had to experience a bit of the horrifying experience of dying before he went.


Then why not use the iron maiden, the bronze bull, or the pear of anguish?  He's a murderer, who cares how grizzly his death is?

At some point, it's not all about him, but about what kind of society and what kind of people we want to be.
2014-01-16 06:43:45 PM
1 votes:

udhq: Know how I know you didn't read the article?

I'll give you a hint:  The judge himself acknowledged that the execution was to be a deadly medical experiment on an non-consenting human subject.  Germans were executed for far less.

Read up on Unit 731 before you continue running your mouth off that the state should be allowed to run deadly medical experiments without consent on the "right" kind of person.


Yeah, I know all about Unit 731.

Killing someone with Versed and Dilaudid is not a "medical experiment". It's something that causes nurses, Paramedics, and doctors to lose their licenses every year for when they kill their patients through incompetence. It's also not torture, or inhumane.

You have an argument on moral grounds against the death penalty, and I would even grant that to you. If you stuck to that, rather than going into full potato crap about "medical experiments" and "torture", you might get some serious conversation rather than people pointing out how stupid you sound.
2014-01-16 06:40:45 PM
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: TheWhoppah: You are defending a killer and narrowly defining everyone else's right to justice and yet I am the sociopath.  Do you enjoy calling other people names?  Neener neener neener?  Am I doing it right?

No, actually, I'm going to go with you're just trolling the thread considering how over the top you are. Or mentally ill. It's either ONE or the other.

udhq: You're right, criminals should be tortured according to the severity of the crime they committed, because, hey man, it's the 1500s and we're still a nation of morally underdeveloped animals!

Being under tripping-balls levels of versed and hydromorphone is not torture. Agonal, biological chemoreceptor-driven reflexes not under conscious control are not torture. Ironically, this is the same cocktail that is used for assisted suicide in countries which it is legal in. Are they being tortured?

udhq: And PS, if a vet tortured a dog for 15 minutes before putting him under, that vet would go to prison.

Which is interesting, because a dog put down with the same type of medication will elicit the same type of reaction.

udhq: You're both defending killers.

And you have no idea what you're talking about.


Know how I know you didn't read the article?

I'll give you a hint:  The judge himself acknowledged that the execution was to be a deadly medical experiment on an non-consenting human subject.  Germans were executed for far less.

Read up on Unit 731 before you continue running your mouth off that the state should be allowed to run deadly medical experiments without consent on the "right" kind of person.
2014-01-16 06:39:52 PM
1 votes:

angry bunny: Is it your thought that the only available options are cramming people into a cell for the rest of their life or killing them?  Because, yeah you know, if you only posit two choices that are equally crappy and then say, see you can't make a moral selection between the two so the death penalty is valid, that's a pretty crappy rhetorical technique.  In summary your argument is bad and you should feel bad.


Not at all. I'm lampshading and openly mocking your idea that there should be black and white tolerance for the most heinous, unreasonable, and un-rehabilitatable individuals who comment monstrous acts of inhumanity against their fellow person, and that throwing them in a prison for X-number of years serves society justice, instead of just serving to alleviate your personal issues with the grey and grey morality of the matter.

I can make a moral selection for the death penalty for some people, because as a society we shouldn't have to justify or tolerate their continued existence for their crimes, which had no mitigating factors or circumstances worth a less severe sentence.
2014-01-16 06:36:26 PM
1 votes:

Dirtybird971: I think a bullet behind the ear should the SOP. Cheap, easy, and plenty of people in prisons who would do it for an extra tray at dinner.

If there is any travesty here it's the forgotten pain, anguish, and fear a woman felt as she was raped, beaten, and murdered. While pregnant with child. FFFFFF*ck this animal. SHE is the victim, not him.


I oppose the death penalty on all levels, but this, I think, is my strongest reason. HE should not be the center of attention. HE should not be a martyr. HE should not be pitied. HE should not have anyone fighting to save his life. HE should not be a celebrity. He should be locked up and forgotten. Done. Let's spend our effort remembering her life. Comforting her family. Doing good works in her name.

I f*cking HATE HATE HATE how the death row inmates become the story, not the victims. F*ck them. Forget them.
2014-01-16 06:30:56 PM
1 votes:
Don't feel like weighing in on the moral and ethical aspects of execution today but as far as methods go I think they should start using Nitrogen or Helium gas asphyxiation.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert_gas_asphyxiation
2014-01-16 06:30:05 PM
1 votes:

the money is in the banana stand: Your life without parole isn't morally superior.


People get the moral superiority of not directly causing someone to die, rather just letting them rot in a eight by eleven cell with only one hour a day for exercise for the rest of their natural lives.

Which, mind you, IS NOT TORTURE! Don't you dare suggest it is, you murdering murderer!
2014-01-16 06:26:06 PM
1 votes:

TheWhoppah: You are defending a killer and narrowly defining everyone else's right to justice and yet I am the sociopath.  Do you enjoy calling other people names?  Neener neener neener?  Am I doing it right?

No, actually, I'm going to go with you're just trolling the thread considering how over the top you are. Or mentally ill. It's either ONE or the other.

udhq: You're right, criminals should be tortured according to the severity of the crime they committed, because, hey man, it's the 1500s and we're still a nation of morally underdeveloped animals!


Being under tripping-balls levels of versed and hydromorphone is not torture. Agonal, biological chemoreceptor-driven reflexes not under conscious control are not torture. Ironically, this is the same cocktail that is used for assisted suicide in countries which it is legal in. Are they being tortured?

udhq: And PS, if a vet tortured a dog for 15 minutes before putting him under, that vet would go to prison.


Which is interesting, because a dog put down with the same type of medication will elicit the same type of reaction.

udhq: You're both defending killers.


And you have no idea what you're talking about.
2014-01-16 06:08:04 PM
1 votes:

TheShavingofOccam123: Yellow Beard: dameron: I find it fascinating that the people who think the government has too much power and is incompetent are by and large huge supporters of the death penalty.

One day the U.S. will get over this bloodthirsty urge and join the rest of the civilized world.  Hopefully this thread will be archived somewhere so the grandchildren of certain posters in this thread can see what kind of savages they were when they were young and stupid.

I find it fascinating that the people who are staunch anti-death penalty types are by and large huge supporters of abortion. I wonder what those future generations will think of that.

They will probably think that enlightened people thought women were more than factories or property to be controlled by the state. And that women should decide when and if they are to give birth and not some body of legislators or a handful of old men who have never been pregnant.


so killing innocent babies=good. Killing a guy that anally raped and then killed a woman that was 8 months preggers=bad. got it
2014-01-16 06:05:50 PM
1 votes:

The Fett: Yellow Beard: I find it fascinating that the people who are staunch anti-death penalty types are by and large huge supporters of abortion. I wonder what those future generations will think of that.

I find it fascinating that the people who support the death penalty by and large are anti-abortion with the justification that, "all life is sacred"


I'm not totally anti-abortion. Abortion as a matter of convenience is the part I find disgusting. To save the mother's life, sure. Rape victim, sure. You bang everybody in sight and realize you aren't quite ready for motherhood at 6 months? Nope

Rape and kill a woman that is 8 months preggers, actually anally rape her because her belly with the baby in it got in the way, then stab her. You deserve the worst possible death that can be implemented on your rabid animal arse
2014-01-16 06:05:43 PM
1 votes:

udhq: So great, everything worked out: the guy is dead, and the state of Ohio and all of their residents have lowered themselves to his level.  Congratulations to all.


He was pregnant, and the state stabbed him methodically and repeatedly until he died of profound hemorrhagic shock, and all the pain and horror that it induces?

That's abhorrent!

Think about this man next time you take your beloved family pet to the vet to be put down. You MURDERING MURDERER!
2014-01-16 05:44:49 PM
1 votes:

Solid Muldoon: Don't they have a bunch of heroin down in the police evidence room? Give him a hot shot and boom, you're done.


That's basically what they did.  Hydromorphone & heroin are both opiates -- variants on the same underlying molecule.

Hydromorphone:
upload.wikimedia.org

Heroin:
upload.wikimedia.org

Only the two substituent groups at left are different.
2014-01-16 05:38:19 PM
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: Serious Post on Serious Thread: There are way too many fark ups and injustices perpetrated by the 'justice' system. And the disparate application by race and class is a given.

Uh, the guy was white, and aside from the overwhelmingly scientifically defensible evidence of his guilt, he confessed to the crime while not under any duress. In fact, his race and class gave him a great chance of NOT getting the death penalty for his crime.

I get what you are saying, but this guy is the exception to all of your rules you just stated.


Your selective reading of my post missed the point entirely and utterly.

All practical reasons aside, execution is not a power I want vested in the state. It's the institutionalization of barbarism I object to the most. The practical stuff is just icing on the cake. Even if this was the whitest richest best defended fark ever, and even though there was even an admission, the existence of the death penalty is objectionable. And again, there is the ADDITIONAL SECONDARY issue that if the death penalty is ok in any situation, it will inevitably be used in a wrongful situation.
2014-01-16 05:32:04 PM
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: Banned on the Run: Just enough propofol to induce unconsciousness, then succinylcholine to paralyze.

/As you know, same combo used routinely in anesthesia induction.  They just skip that important "stick a tube in the trachea and turn on the ventilator" step.

The problem is that the combination used was explicitly developed because of the short half-lives of both drugs. Propofol has a two minute half-life after the infusion is cut off, and about five to ten minutes after bolusing. Anectine (Sux) has a life of about five minutes after the fasiculations stop.

They used Pavulon for the paralytic before going to the one drug/two drug methods with a sedative and opiate they use now. fourty five minute to two hour life span depending on patient.

Which, would be a bad thing if the propofol wore off, or was underdosed before cardiac arrest was induced. That would mean the person was aware of everything happening to him, including suffocating.

Hardly humane. And I wouldn't wish that on the most heinous monster.


CSB:
A friend in the ER had a drunk combative patient who needed an emergent procedure (peritoneal lavage, I think).  They gave him the succs and as he was lying there paralyzed, calmly explained to him that if he didn't behave, the next time he might not get intubated.  They tubed him, did the procedure, and 15 minutes later when the tube came out, the patient was a perfect gentleman.

Illegal, maybe.  Unethical, yes.  Funny, you're goddamned right
2014-01-16 05:29:55 PM
1 votes:

lennavan: I'm really comin up empty with the empathy here today.


And that's not sociopathic in the least.

The purpose of the death penalty is to remove someone who's actions, beyond a reasonable doubt, are so heinous that society can no longer tolerate their existence. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you want torture, steal obama's magic time machine and go back a few hundred years.
2014-01-16 05:26:36 PM
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: Which, would be a bad thing if the propofol wore off, or was underdosed before cardiac arrest was induced. That would mean the person was aware of everything happening to him, including suffocating.


I'm pretty sure the woman who was anally raped and then stabbed to death was aware of everything that was happening to her.  This guy not only wished that but actually inflicted that upon her.

hardinparamedic: Hardly humane. And I wouldn't wish that on the most heinous monster.


Worst case scenario as you have outlined, this guy's last moments on earth would have been spent realizing to a tiny degree what it would have been like to be his victim.

I'm really comin up empty with the empathy here today.
2014-01-16 05:24:22 PM
1 votes:
Just kill death row inmates by oxygen displacement. Nitrogen is readily available, cheap, we're certainly not going to run out of it, it's painless... Not sure about whether it damages organs, but I'd suspect not, since you're basically just asphyxiating.

As for why it should be painless, why not? Just because someone is a monster doesn't mean we have to be one too. Just kill them quickly and painlessly and be done with it.

Threads like this are great for expanding my collection of names in 'ITG Yellow' though!
2014-01-16 05:21:54 PM
1 votes:

Banned on the Run: Just enough propofol to induce unconsciousness, then succinylcholine to paralyze.

/As you know, same combo used routinely in anesthesia induction.  They just skip that important "stick a tube in the trachea and turn on the ventilator" step.


The problem is that the combination used was explicitly developed because of the short half-lives of both drugs. Propofol has a two minute half-life after the infusion is cut off, and about five to ten minutes after bolusing. Anectine (Sux) has a life of about five minutes after the fasiculations stop.

They used Pavulon for the paralytic before going to the one drug/two drug methods with a sedative and opiate they use now. fourty five minute to two hour life span depending on patient.

Which, would be a bad thing if the propofol wore off, or was underdosed before cardiac arrest was induced. That would mean the person was aware of everything happening to him, including suffocating.

Hardly humane. And I wouldn't wish that on the most heinous monster.
2014-01-16 05:21:52 PM
1 votes:
oh noes!
the man who sodomized a pregnant woma, tearing her open
before pushing metal into her body over and over until she and her child died..
..expired surrounded by his loved ones,
given a nice meal, a chance to make his spiritual preparation
 and a chance to speak his final words to his family

 you have a problem because he snorted and twitched on a bed

interesting
2014-01-16 05:21:00 PM
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: propofol would be a horrible idea for an execution drug - the amount required would be insane.


One would need to administer it in Jacksonian-quantities!
2014-01-16 05:19:56 PM
1 votes:

Yellow Beard: I find it fascinating that the people who are staunch anti-death penalty types are by and large huge supporters of abortion. I wonder what those future generations will think of that.


I find it fascinating that the people who support the death penalty by and large are anti-abortion with the justification that, "all life is sacred"
2014-01-16 05:19:13 PM
1 votes:

Dr Jack Badofsky: TheShavingofOccam123: QFTA:

A federal judge sided with the state but acknowledged the new method was an experiment.

Please have this judge removed from the bench. This is an idiot. A cruel, nasty idiot.

I dunno.  Depends on who they were experimenting on.  Was it a worst-of-the-worst pedophile?  Par for the course.  Went on a serial-killing spree?  Welcome to the "Serial Killer Victim Experience".  Kidnapped / tortured / raped people?  My sympathy meter just broke Trying to register lower than it was able to.  Not feeling very sorry at all for people on death row, especially when the evidence is overwhelmingly proof that they indeed were heinous individuals.  Ted Bundy, for example.  Don't let his looks and charisma fool you.  That's an unrepentant, cold, sadistic, devious person.  Not fixable, and not worth the oxygen he breathed.


Please have this judge kept on his bench forever. We need people like him (along with the repeal of the Eighth Amendment).

And anyone with a criminal record should be put to death, no matter how minor it is. Any kind of blemished, imperfect record should = DIEDIEDIEDIEDIE!!!!
2014-01-16 05:18:36 PM
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: Great Porn Dragon: a) A lot (a LOT) of pharmaceutical companies are based overseas in jurisidictions that have signed laws against selling anything to be used for purposes of capital punishment (basically the reason we don't use morphine is the same reason we stopped using the propofol/paralytic two-step)

What jurisdiction was using propofol? I know a lot of them were using phenobarbital, but propofol would be a horrible idea for an execution drug - the amount required would be insane.


Just enough propofol to induce unconsciousness, then succinylcholine to paralyze.

/As you know, same combo used routinely in anesthesia induction.  They just skip that important "stick a tube in the trachea and turn on the ventilator" step.
2014-01-16 05:16:46 PM
1 votes:

BigLuca: So what the Nazis did to the Jews was not murder?


fc06.deviantart.net.

That was stupid, and you should feel bad for posting it.
2014-01-16 05:16:32 PM
1 votes:
"As one whose husband and mother-in-law have both died the victims of murder assassination, I stand firmly and unequivocally opposed to the death penalty for those convicted of capital offenses. An evil deed is not redeemed by an evil deed of retaliation. Justice is never advanced in the taking of a human life. Morality is never upheld by legalized murder."

-- Coretta Scott King

I realize this guy was a POS, but the death penalty really is wrong. It's not cheaper than life in prison, and it doesn't bring the victim back to life, so really, what's the point.
2014-01-16 05:12:04 PM
1 votes:

jshine: Kit Fister: Beyond that, I see death as simply a form of cold storage. I don't promote death as a means of revenge, but simply as a means of permanently removing the person from the gene pool and freeing up a cell, guards, and resources for others.


"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."
-- J.R.R. Tolkien


Said by a character who killed many people, to another whose hands did not end up clean, and acknowledging in the quote itself that sometimes it is right. The point of your quote is not that no one should ever be killed, only that it is a grave responsibility, to be exercised with the utmost care.
2014-01-16 05:08:25 PM
1 votes:

Coder: Bit'O'Gristle: And why should i give a ripe fark if this piece of shiat suffers before croaking? I don't, and ill bet the relatives of the victim dont either. I would bet, that they wish he suffered more. I'm sure his victim felt terror and pain as he raped and murdered her and her baby. This was a piece of shiat they flushed. Don't expect me to shed tears that he "gasped" and "felt fear". fark him, and fark his scumbag lawyers.

Yeah, let's build our justice system around that sentiment...


Forget it, it's derp town in Fark death penalty threads. It's apparently impossible for some people to quell their bloodlust long enough to consider the ramifications of actions throughout our justice system. Consideration beyond the thought process of "bad man dead! Good!" is too much for them.

The bad man is dead. Sorry he didn't suffer enough for some of you or the method of his death was not entertaining enough or cheap enough. I'll continue to absolutely abhor the fact we trust the government to kill people. Yes I know that means I love criminals and support what this guy did to some of you. Luckily, if you think that, you're a fool and I don't listen to the rantings of fools.

/I seriously don't get you bloodthirsty idiots...you want him to suffer? Life in jail is far worse than killing him, like much much worse. It's cheaper too because of the farking inefficiency of having the government kill people. It also removes them permanently from society which is the farking purpose of punishment in a justice system, not to satisfy bloodlust of the keyboard warriors
//oh wait I do get you, too many torture porn movies and revenge fantasies...ta da "let's torture him...blow up his head...hang him so he suffocates...unh yeah I'm almost there"
///how's that deterrent effect of the death penalty working out? Clearly worked on this guy, he was so deterred by it he killed someone
////it's totally not our base instinct for revenge motivating it at all
2014-01-16 05:07:46 PM
1 votes:

Great Porn Dragon: a) A lot (a LOT) of pharmaceutical companies are based overseas in jurisidictions that have signed laws against selling anything to be used for purposes of capital punishment (basically the reason we don't use morphine is the same reason we stopped using the propofol/paralytic two-step)


What jurisdiction was using propofol? I know a lot of them were using phenobarbital, but propofol would be a horrible idea for an execution drug - the amount required would be insane.
2014-01-16 05:07:20 PM
1 votes:

Dimensio: EyeballKid: Running a-puck: I'm honestly a bit baffled by people who think torture is ok as long as you're just torturing bad guys.  Torture is not ok.  Ever.  No matter what.  It's TORTURE.
Kill them quickly and painlessly and move on.

I'm honestly baffled by people who think murder is OK as long as you're just murdering bad guys.

Murder is, by definition, unlawful. Therefore the legally authorized taking of human life -- even with premeditation and malice aforethought -- is not murder.


So what the Nazis did to the Jews was not murder?
2014-01-16 05:06:37 PM
1 votes:

jshine: The combination of an opiate (hydromorphone) + a benzodiazepine (midazolam) is pretty common for anesthesia in the hospital for minor procedures.  Anyone who's had a colonoscopy or other similar exam has probably had some combination of these drugs (fentanyl would probably be more common than hydromorphone, but midazolam would probably still be used).


Fentanyl is popular because of it's short life (30 minutes, versus four hours for hydromorphone).

Still, I'm willing to bet that the doses they gave this guy were far above and beyond what even the anesthesia or drug-facilitated intubation doses were, and into the realm of irreversable circulatory collapse/shock levels. Even when they used phenobarb, they gave beyond the LD50 amount in a single bolus dose.
2014-01-16 05:05:28 PM
1 votes:

dittybopper: So why don't we just overdose them with morphine?  We know it works, and we know it's painless, and it's less messy than my idea of using explosive lenses to implode the heads of criminals like the pit of an atomic bomb, which, btw, is quite humane, because the explosive shockwave is faster than nerve conduction speed, so it's like instantly turning off a light.  They'd never even know when the end happens, because they'd be dead before the sensations could reach their brains.


Largely because of the following reasons:

a) A lot (a LOT) of pharmaceutical companies are based overseas in jurisidictions that have signed laws against selling anything to be used for purposes of capital punishment (basically the reason we don't use morphine is the same reason we stopped using the propofol/paralytic two-step)

b) A LOT of those same pharmaceutical companies have stated outright that they will not sell ANY product to the US if the stuff is at risk of being used for capital punishment even via diversion (which is why they had to stop using propofol and are now using Versed in the homebrew cocktail--there was a real risk that NO company would sell propofol to the US due to its use in capital punishment, and at least Versed is technically in generic status).

c) Pretty much all the drugs commonly used for executions (both now and in past in the US) have been "dual-use" drugs that are used in surgery in humans.  Pretty much anything we can use to execute humans without it ending up in a literal Supreme Court case...ends up in the same problem.

And now I'm just waiting for companies to say they aren't going to sell Versed (or its generic version) unless they stop use in capital punishment.  I also expect this particular form of chucklefarkery will continue up to the point where there are entire states which can no longer use humane methods of euthanising animals because the local DoC decided to start using Fatal Plus on their death-row inmates to avoid putting human drugs at risk of not being available during surgery.

As for answers...the easiest answer is to really avoid anything "dual use" altogether, but the one major method of executing humans chemically (not using pharmaceuticals usually meant for surgery) has tended to be frowned upon for some time (legally in the US since the 80s, and in general since its invention by a group of folks in Europe back in the 40s for crimes against humanity); I really don't see the gas chamber coming back.

There's also the option of not using chemical means (in the traditional sense) of execution, instead using more tried-and-true physics-based methods of execution....decapitation, basilar skull fracture (by being dropped in a manner that ensures a clean basilar skull fracture and snappage of the brain stem), or firearms.  These tend to bring the reality of death a bit closer, however, and do require some amount of skill to do properly.  The same people who tend to be squeamish re gas executions and the use of electricity as a Thomas Edison-tested method of sure execution also tend to be squeamish about these methods, though...

(Note that I don't mention bringing back the chair--that's pretty much out for the same reason gas is out--nor do I mention doing away with capital punishment save in cases of treason (which--knowing some parts of the US--I think will probably happen about the time the NHL announces the Winter Classic is to be played in downtown Hades due to the latter being about as cold as Moosetits, Alberta in January).  I also think that at least in some parts of the country there might not be that much of a PROBLEM getting a proper firing squad together, to be honest.)
2014-01-16 05:02:44 PM
1 votes:
probably already been said...

but who gives a crap if he died in pain, choking, and afraid....

how did his victim die? After being brutally raped, do you think she just fell asleep and went peacefully? I don't have the details, but the man raped and killed a woman, and then got to sit around getting free food, heat, healtcare for 20 years.

Executions could quite literally be free if we just used the old method of hanging. Quick/easy/painless/cheap, what the hell else do you want?

I hope he suffered a ton -- just like what he did to his victim
2014-01-16 04:49:56 PM
1 votes:

BigOle8point: [img.fark.net image 205x246]

To those who say its cruel and unusual  .... go eat a snickers. You act like a whiny biatch when you're hungry.
If you don't like the death penalty, too bad. If you are a man posting here and object to killing a psychopath who brutalized an 8 month pregnant woman, you are a pussy.


From your own bio:

The Fark comments section used to be the hands down best on the web. Current state is people being dicks to each other. I hate you all for ruining what was once a very witty, very funny comments section.

I see you've changed your mind.
2014-01-16 04:46:24 PM
1 votes:
This guy was given a whopping dose of Versed.  There was no suffering on his part.  None.  He was fully unconscious/unaware in seconds.

His family, unfortunately, did suffer.
2014-01-16 04:44:34 PM
1 votes:

Kit Fister: Coder: A lot of people in this thread mistakenly think we want them to have compassion for this guy. Not at all. We want you to have an ethics system more robust than "Do I feel compassion for this guy?"

My ethics system boils down to:

Is he a nice guy? Yes/no
Is his condition the result of his own actions? yes/no
Was he capable of understanding the consequences of his own actions? yes/no
Is he legitimately sorry for what he did? Yes/no
Will he do it again? Yes/no
Does his existence pose a threat to others? Yes/no


Beyond that, I see death as simply a form of cold storage. I don't promote death as a means of revenge, but simply as a means of permanently removing the person from the gene pool and freeing up a cell, guards, and resources for others.


And I largely agree with you. But killing them is enough. Put them to death quick, clean, painless. No justice system worth its name inflicts unnecessary suffering to satiate blood-lust.
GBB
2014-01-16 04:38:23 PM
1 votes:

Bf+: GBB: Bf+: GBB: Bf+: WhyKnot: His children did not have to attend, that was their decision.

durbnpoisn: That was their own choice.

GBB: They didn't have to be, nor should they have been, there.

You convinced me-- They deserve far worse.

You are the only one claiming they deserve anything.


Bullshiat.


Don't project your depravity onto others.  Own it.


...Says the pro-torture guy.

And where did I indicate that I was pro-torture?
What filter of lenses are you looking through, bud?


Apologies, I confused you with the person who Boobiesed, "I hope he did suffer", (to which you replied.)  Sorry.
My main point is that the only purpose of the death penalty is tortuous vengeance.  All the replies focused on the fault of his children for being present.  However, I stand by my bullshiat call-- I don't think innocent relatives deserve to watch, or even have to know about a botched (or otherwise) execution, and I never implied they should.


Gotcha.  I've been guilty of mis-reading replies as well.

I agree with your point on the death penalty and raise you that that the entirety of the justice system is revenge.  Revenge is even in the bible (Eye for an eye).
And no, they didn't need to watch.  My reply was that they shouldn't have been there.  But, I also don't know the circumstances.  How old were they?  Did the have a choice, or were they in-tow?
2014-01-16 04:37:33 PM
1 votes:

Bit'O'Gristle: And why should i give a ripe fark if this piece of shiat suffers before croaking? I don't, and ill bet the relatives of the victim dont either. I would bet, that they wish he suffered more. I'm sure his victim felt terror and pain as he raped and murdered her and her baby. This was a piece of shiat they flushed. Don't expect me to shed tears that he "gasped" and "felt fear". fark him, and fark his scumbag lawyers.


Yeah, let's build our justice system around that sentiment...
2014-01-16 04:36:15 PM
1 votes:

give me doughnuts: lennavan: give me doughnuts:No. If you can't guarantee 100% accuracy with  all death peanlty convictions, then there should be no death penalty.

I agree.

Which is why it was spectacular that this guy was executed.


And you are just as positive about every other person currently on death row?


Nope.

But I am about this guy.  So yay, some raping murdering asshole is dead.
2014-01-16 04:33:19 PM
1 votes:
knobmaker: overdosing on anesthetics and pain meds is as bad as being anally raped and stabbed to death.

I disagree.
2014-01-16 04:32:21 PM
1 votes:

lennavan: give me doughnuts:No. If you can't guarantee 100% accuracy with  all death peanlty convictions, then there should be no death penalty.

I agree.

Which is why it was spectacular that this guy was executed.



And you are just as positive about every other person currently on death row?
2014-01-16 04:29:18 PM
1 votes:

never trust a bunny: I'm astonishedoso many people in this thread are whining about sympathy for this guy. Most are saying kill him humanly but by all means kill him. I don't really see that as sympathy. For the record I vote guillotine.


A lot of people in this thread mistakenly think we want them to have compassion for this guy. Not at all. We want you to have an ethics system more robust than "Do I feel compassion for this guy?"
2014-01-16 04:28:53 PM
1 votes:

WTFDYW: Gee. I wonder how long the pregnant woman had to suffer at his hands before she punched the clock? I guess that doesn't matter to the FARK.com brigade huh?


I see the "the state should be at least as brutal as psychotic criminals" brigade has shown up.

Because that always ends so well.
GBB
2014-01-16 04:22:15 PM
1 votes:

Bf+: GBB: Bf+: WhyKnot: His children did not have to attend, that was their decision.

durbnpoisn: That was their own choice.

GBB: They didn't have to be, nor should they have been, there.

You convinced me-- They deserve far worse.

You are the only one claiming they deserve anything.


Bullshiat.


Don't project your depravity onto others.  Own it.


...Says the pro-torture guy.


And where did I indicate that I was pro-torture?
What filter of lenses are you looking through, bud?
2014-01-16 04:21:24 PM
1 votes:

EyeballKid: Running a-puck: I'm honestly a bit baffled by people who think torture is ok as long as you're just torturing bad guys.  Torture is not ok.  Ever.  No matter what.  It's TORTURE.
Kill them quickly and painlessly and move on.

I'm honestly baffled by people who think murder is OK as long as you're just murdering bad guys.


Yep. It's revenge, not punishment. Makes us no better than them. You can imprison them for much less money if they're on death row, and through a chain-gang, they can actually contribute to society again. We have the ability to protect our society from convicted criminals without murdering them.
2014-01-16 04:20:50 PM
1 votes:

Dimensio: I disagree. Executions should in fact be open to the public, and even publicly broadcast.

That may cause a reassessment of popular support for capital punishment.


Who are you kidding? In a country that obsesses over Duck Dynasty and Doomsday Preppers publicly broadcast executions would be the most popular show on TV.
2014-01-16 04:18:16 PM
1 votes:

the money is in the banana stand: -Abolish the Death Penalty
-Bring back Labor Camps
-Heavily scrutinize Labor Camps to ensure no illegal profiteering is occurring
-Folks unable to perform manual labor will perform something non-physical
-Trades and Skills taught to all inmates
-Inmates must pay for their stay by working
-Those with more valuable skills or that show strong signs of work ethic, receive proportionate benefits.


Change 'inmates' to 'citizens' and let's have some fun!
2014-01-16 04:14:58 PM
1 votes:

imfallen_angel: TheWhoppah: No nation is civilized if they DON'T execute a man for raping and killing a woman who is eight months pregnant. If you can't execute scumbag subhumans like that then your society is not civilized.
You don't value the life of your own citizens.

What if he was sent through time because the unborn child was to be the next Hitler?


Then he did his job and needed to be removed from our timeline before he accidentally changed anything else... so it still worked out for the best.
GBB
2014-01-16 04:14:48 PM
1 votes:

Bf+: WhyKnot: His children did not have to attend, that was their decision.

durbnpoisn: That was their own choice.

GBB: They didn't have to be, nor should they have been, there.

You convinced me-- They deserve far worse.


You are the only one claiming they deserve anything.  Don't project your depravity onto others.  Own it.
2014-01-16 04:14:45 PM
1 votes:

EyeballKid: theflatline: I give you Pedro Lopez,  who raped and killed over 300 young girls in Latin America in countries who do not have death penalties.

He only did 18 years in prison, and then was declared sane and released.  Is that the act of civilized society?

Anecdotal evidence?!
ONE anecdote?!
SHUT.
DOWN.
EVERYTHING.


You just promised to not argue against capital punishment with a single anecdote about an innocent person on death row.  You get that, right?
2014-01-16 04:09:57 PM
1 votes:

TheWhoppah: you are a puppet: TheWhoppah: DarkSoulNoHope: The good thing to do is drag it out for all the people who may have been falsely convicted, because I know Texas has killed a couple of innocent people.

More Willingham bullshiat?  The evidence of his guilt is overwhelming, regardless of what the Net Yorker magazine does to sell subscriptions.  I'll give you that Carl DeLuna in 1989 might have been innocent.  But most of those innocence claims from Texas are pure bullshiat.  Texas did have a bunch of RAPE exhortations because Dallas saved all the rape kits going back into the 1970s and then went back and DNA tested all of them.  Every other city in the nation disposed of their old rape kits so there was nothing left to test... so Texas gets a black-eye over it.  I guess no good deed goes unpunished.

How do you define overwhelming? IIRC the only actual evidence was the later disputed arson report? Unless you're including the Led Zeppelin posters and snake tattoos as evidence. Or his cowardice.

Willingham's own explanation for what happened:  I was napping in the back room with Amber when she woke me up yelling about the smoke so I got up and left out the front door.

Three year old Amber's body was found under the covers in the back bedroom.  The path from the back bedroom to the front door would have taken him past the room where the twin infants were sleeping.  Their bodies were found in that room.

So, even if you ignore the half-dozen empty bottles of lighter fluid and the neighbors that reported seeing him outside acting funny peeking in the windows and doors BEFORE any smoke came out of the house... even if you ignore the testimony of the fire investigators that spent 3 days going through the rubble.  Even if you take Willingham's explanation as 100% gospel truth... then he just walked out and left his three kids to die in a fire without even trying to save them... one of whom was in the same room with him and alerted him to the smoke.  The jury obviously didn't ...


I asked for evidence outside of his cowardice. I'm well aware that the reason people have no problem with his execution is because they have no respect for his non-criminal actions that night. I remember a guy who ran away from the Aurora Dark Knight shooting, got in his car and sped off while his fiance was still in the theater. He's a biatch but can we execute him based on that?

And as you stated, the arson clues were evidence "at the time" of his trial; at the time of his execution, not so much. So, the evidence is empty bottles of lighter fluid and him peeking in windows. Not so overwhelming.
2014-01-16 04:09:46 PM
1 votes:

TheWhoppah: Why should execution be painless?  That seems like a stupid prerequisite.


You mean, aside from the Eighth Amendment?
2014-01-16 04:09:03 PM
1 votes:

Kit Fister: I'm OK with his definition of a justice system. Remove those who commit the worst, most atrocious crimes from society and from the face of the earth. Permanent cold storage. We have enough humans on this planet that those who do especially evil things deserve to be removed from it.


Even ignoring the wrongness of that, the notion that a victim should automatically become an arbiter of right and wrong is insane.

Vengeance and justice are not the same thing.
2014-01-16 04:07:52 PM
1 votes:

Ghastly: I just love that the people who are all "get government outta our lives" are all "get government into our deaths". This experiment was cruel and barbaric regardless of what this man's crimes were. The death penalty is not the act of a civilized society.


I give you Pedro Lopez,  who raped and killed over 300 young girls in Latin America in countries who do not have death penalties.

He only did 18 years in prison, and then was declared sane and released.  Is that the act of civilized society?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_L%C3%B3pez_%28serial_killer%29
2014-01-16 04:07:47 PM
1 votes:

WTFDYW: Do you know of any rich people who have raped and murdered eight month pregnant women? Rich people are rich because they have more to do than kill and maim people.


You must have missed the whole affluenza epidemic recently.
2014-01-16 04:06:45 PM
1 votes:
This thread is what happens when you don't explain to your children before reading them Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery" or letting them watch "The Running Man" what a cautionary tale is.
2014-01-16 04:03:05 PM
1 votes:

Cold_Sassy: Marcus Aurelius: Dog Welder: "And more importantly, the people of the state of Ohio should be appalled at what was done here today in their names."

As a resident of Ohio, I'm more appalled at what this jerk did to warrant the death penalty.

He was too poor to afford good lawyers.  That's how he got the death penalty.

Well yeah, that and he raped and stabbed a 22 year old girl to death but hey, let's not split hairs, eh?


So you're OK with a wealthy person getting 15 to 25 for the same crime, solely on the basis that they are wealthy?
2014-01-16 04:02:42 PM
1 votes:

theflatline: My god the report on that guy...

He then explained that because she was so pregnant, it was difficult to engage in sex with her, so instead he anally sodomized her. Joy then became "hysterical," which made McGuire nervous. He ended up killing Joy for fear that he would go to jail for raping a pregnant woman.


His fear was undeniably justified.
GBB
2014-01-16 04:01:58 PM
1 votes:

Bf+: Cold_Sassy: I hope he did suffer

Trolling or not...
Unlike many pro-death penalty people, at least you are proudly pro-torture.
Do you also feel joy at the pain of his son and daughter having to watch their murderous father tortured before their eyes.


They didn't have to be, nor should they have been, there.  If they are willing to accept him as a monster, then they should be prepared to deal with those demons.
2014-01-16 04:01:25 PM
1 votes:

Yellow Beard: dameron: I find it fascinating that the people who think the government has too much power and is incompetent are by and large huge supporters of the death penalty.

One day the U.S. will get over this bloodthirsty urge and join the rest of the civilized world.  Hopefully this thread will be archived somewhere so the grandchildren of certain posters in this thread can see what kind of savages they were when they were young and stupid.

I find it fascinating that the people who are staunch anti-death penalty types are by and large huge supporters of abortion. I wonder what those future generations will think of that.


They will probably think that enlightened people thought women were more than factories or property to be controlled by the state. And that women should decide when and if they are to give birth and not some body of legislators or a handful of old men who have never been pregnant.
2014-01-16 04:01:06 PM
1 votes:

Yellow Beard: I find it fascinating that the people who are staunch anti-death penalty types are by and large huge supporters of abortion. I wonder what those future generations will think of that.


Like  the billion+ Catholics out there?   Go be dumb somewhere else.
2014-01-16 04:00:21 PM
1 votes:

durbnpoisn: jigger: He was convicted 25 years ago? The swift sword of justice, I guess.

And, see, here inlies the problem with capital punishment is in this country.  He's been sitting in jail for 25 years, with more than enough time to regret and repent what he had done.  This to such an extent, that you almost feel sorry for his manner of execution.
I can assure you, if he were executed immediately following the conviction of rape and murder of a pregnant woman, proponents of the death penalty (like myself), would have liked to have seen even MORE pain and suffering.  As it stands, it's just too far after the fact.


How the hell do you regret and repent for rape and murder?

I can understand knocking over some banks and feeling bad about it later. Selling some drugs, destroying property - hell, I might even be able to forgive someone for beating up another guy, realizing the error of his ways, and then going back and making amends whatever way he can.

Some things, though, shouldn't be "erasable", so to speak. Violating a woman, man or child because no one else will sleep with you? No second chances. Taking someone else's life for any other reason outside of defending your own? No, you don't get a chance to say that you found Jesus and everything's peachy now. In fact, I'd hope that when you do get to the Pearly Gates, some big bouncers forcibly remove you from line and make you watch as all the gay people and other "godless heathens" cheerfully walk ahead of you before they drop kick your worthless ass into whatever hell you truly belong.

"25 Years enough time to regret and repent..." Please.
2014-01-16 04:00:16 PM
1 votes:

Marcus Aurelius: Dog Welder: "And more importantly, the people of the state of Ohio should be appalled at what was done here today in their names."

As a resident of Ohio, I'm more appalled at what this jerk did to warrant the death penalty.

He was too poor to afford good lawyers.  That's how he got the death penalty.


Well yeah, that and he raped and stabbed a 22 year old girl to death but hey, let's not split hairs, eh?
2014-01-16 03:57:23 PM
1 votes:
This is an OUTRAGE...

....reads part that says " put McGuire to death for the 1989 rape and fatal stabbing of a pregnant woman"

Changed my mind, let the coont suffer
2014-01-16 03:56:50 PM
1 votes:
I just love that the people who are all "get government outta our lives" are all "get government into our deaths". This experiment was cruel and barbaric regardless of what this man's crimes were. The death penalty is not the act of a civilized society.
2014-01-16 03:55:53 PM
1 votes:

you are a puppet: TheWhoppah: DarkSoulNoHope: The good thing to do is drag it out for all the people who may have been falsely convicted, because I know Texas has killed a couple of innocent people.

More Willingham bullshiat?  The evidence of his guilt is overwhelming, regardless of what the Net Yorker magazine does to sell subscriptions.  I'll give you that Carl DeLuna in 1989 might have been innocent.  But most of those innocence claims from Texas are pure bullshiat.  Texas did have a bunch of RAPE exhortations because Dallas saved all the rape kits going back into the 1970s and then went back and DNA tested all of them.  Every other city in the nation disposed of their old rape kits so there was nothing left to test... so Texas gets a black-eye over it.  I guess no good deed goes unpunished.

How do you define overwhelming? IIRC the only actual evidence was the later disputed arson report? Unless you're including the Led Zeppelin posters and snake tattoos as evidence. Or his cowardice.


Willingham's own explanation for what happened:  I was napping in the back room with Amber when she woke me up yelling about the smoke so I got up and left out the front door.

Three year old Amber's body was found under the covers in the back bedroom.  The path from the back bedroom to the front door would have taken him past the room where the twin infants were sleeping.  Their bodies were found in that room.

So, even if you ignore the half-dozen empty bottles of lighter fluid and the neighbors that reported seeing him outside acting funny peeking in the windows and doors BEFORE any smoke came out of the house... even if you ignore the testimony of the fire investigators that spent 3 days going through the rubble.  Even if you take Willingham's explanation as 100% gospel truth... then he just walked out and left his three kids to die in a fire without even trying to save them... one of whom was in the same room with him and alerted him to the smoke.  The jury obviously didn't believe him and neither should you... but even if you do and you are right .... well I still think he was a monster who deserved a lot worse than lethal injection.  Oh, and those fire reports were not debunked exactly.  They found almost two dozen "clues of arson" that, at the time, it was believed that those clues ONLY appeared in arson fires.  We now know that some of them can sometimes appear in non-arson fires too.  Still, there was plenty of forensic evidence to support the arson conviction even if some of those clues were only 90% likely causes instead of 100%.  What are the chances of over dozen 10% chances all going that way?  The prosecution theory was that he killed his three kids to spite his wife.  His last words were to her, "fark You, biatch!"
2014-01-16 03:51:51 PM
1 votes:
Submittard and HuffPo are exaggerating liars, trolling for clicks.

Headline:
...gasped and snorted for 15 minutes...

Article:
...inmate appeared to gasp several times and took 15 minutes to die...
McGuire was still for almost five minutes, then emitted a loud snot, as if snoring, and continued to make that sound over the next several minutes....A coughing sound was Dennis McGuire's last apparent movement, at 10:43 am.  He was pronounced dead 10 minutes later.


So, basically, he was quiet for 5 minutes, he snored for 5 minutes, was quiet again for 5 minutes, then coughed once and died.  But instead of that, let's write a headline that makes it sound like he was choking and writhing against his restraints for 15 minutes...
Bf+
2014-01-16 03:51:29 PM
1 votes:

Cold_Sassy: I hope he did suffer


Trolling or not...
Unlike many pro-death penalty people, at least you are proudly pro-torture.
Do you also feel joy at the pain of his son and daughter having to watch their murderous father tortured before their eyes.
2014-01-16 03:48:51 PM
1 votes:

KidneyStone: I would volunteer to be on the firing squad. I seriously doubt it would bother me much.


Wow, dude, you are like, so totally tough and bad-ass! I bet nobody's every messed with a bad-ass such as yourself, right? 'Cos you're so awesome and bad-ass and tough?
2014-01-16 03:47:01 PM
1 votes:
Good to know we're still on par with those other civilized countries. Murica!

farm3.staticflickr.com
2014-01-16 03:45:52 PM
1 votes:
Side note: does anyone give a rat's ass? OK, anyone important?
2014-01-16 03:43:00 PM
1 votes:

Target Builder: dittybopper: So why don't we just overdose them with morphine?  We know it works, and we know it's painless

Or put them in an airtight room and flood it with Carbon Monoxide. They'll painlessly pass out in seconds without even knowing the execution has started, and we know it's painless from testimony of people who have survived Carbon Monoxide poisoning, and die very shortly after.

Wait 30 mins or so, vent the room and send the body over to the morgue.


You know who else used Carbon Monoxide to execute people?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_camp#Pure_extermination_c am ps
2014-01-16 03:41:36 PM
1 votes:

Lando Lincoln: The Muthaship: So, does he usually snore?

I wonder of the pregnant lady he raped and stabbed to death suffered more or less than he did.....

Nobody was ever wrongfully convicted. Nope.


~~DNA evidence confirmed McGuire's guilt

Read harder next time.
2014-01-16 03:40:59 PM
1 votes:

Mirandized: Joe Blowme: Dog Welder: "And more importantly, the people of the state of Ohio should be appalled at what was done here today in their names."

As a resident of Ohio, I'm more appalled at what this jerk did to warrant the death penalty.

THIS times eleventy billion

I don't understand this at all. You are not responsible for what this piece of shiat did. You are responsible for what the State does in your name. He acted as a monster so the State in our name should also act as a monster? That lowers us to his level. I want my government to be better than this piece of shiat.


The guy had problems breathing for a few minutes while he was passed out.

I fail to see how that equates with raping and stabbing a pregnant woman to death.

Here's how much I care about this guy:

Not at all.  Not one fark is given about this guy's feelings or well-being.
2014-01-16 03:40:34 PM
1 votes:

WTFDYW: r1niceboy: WTFDYW: I'm ok with this jpg.

But are you absolutely confident that every single person in the US on death row is there legitimately? Would you be okay with doing this to someone because the cops wanted to get back to their donuts, and the DA was making a run for congress?

When the DNA says you did it, you DID it. Thanks for playing. Please come back later.


Every single person on death row has been convicted using DNA tests? Proof s'il vous plait.
2014-01-16 03:40:16 PM
1 votes:
You guys realize that being for or against the death penalty is just an opinion, right?  And that there's no factual basis to rule out either option, or consider one morally superior to the other?

It boils down to preference once you remove the doubt about guilt.
2014-01-16 03:37:47 PM
1 votes:

skozlaw: lennavan: It does when you're guilty of raping and murdering a pregnant girl and the family of the victim supports it.

No, it doesn't, and your idea of how a justice system ought to function is insanely terrifying. Thank god nobody ever asked you how things should work and let's hope nobody ever does.


I don't know why you're terrified of a justice system that executes raping murderers.  What exactly are you worried about, they'll come back as zombies or what?
2014-01-16 03:37:25 PM
1 votes:

Lando Lincoln: The Muthaship: So, does he usually snore?

I wonder of the pregnant lady he raped and stabbed to death suffered more or less than he did.....

Nobody was ever wrongfully convicted. Nope.


He farking admitted it.  Get off your soapbox.
2014-01-16 03:37:19 PM
1 votes:

The Muthaship: So, does he usually snore?

I wonder of the pregnant lady he raped and stabbed to death suffered more or less than he did.....


Exactly.

I ain't exactly playing a full-sized violin for this idiot.
2014-01-16 03:37:04 PM
1 votes:
Great job Ohio, now you're probably going to have to pay the man's family millions of dollars, while the victim's family only has their memories. Great 'experiment'

/you know who else did biochem experiments on convicts?
2014-01-16 03:36:57 PM
1 votes:

Running a-puck: I'm honestly a bit baffled by people who think torture is ok as long as you're just torturing bad guys.  Torture is not ok.  Ever.  No matter what.  It's TORTURE.
Kill them quickly and painlessly and move on.

/Though if it were up to me we'd have a very very high burden of proof that the person was guilty before actually executing them.   Can't absolutely prove that the person did it, no execution.


DNA evidence and a confession is the definition of a high burden of proof being fulfilled. 

You don't want to die a horrible death? Don't rape and kill. Pretty simple really.

TV's Vinnie: When was the last time a rich person was executed for their crimes in the US?

Think about that.


Probably a gangster or drug kingpin of some kind. Just because you are rich doesn't make you better or less likely to get death row. The thing is that most people whom are rich don't commit capital crimes... They just pay someone else to do it.
2014-01-16 03:36:30 PM
1 votes:

JackieRabbit: dittybopper: So why don't we just overdose them with morphine?  We know it works, and we know it's painless, and it's less messy than my idea of using explosive lenses to implode the heads of criminals like the pit of an atomic bomb, which, btw, is quite humane, because the explosive shockwave is faster than nerve conduction speed, so it's like instantly turning off a light.  They'd never even know when the end happens, because they'd be dead before the sensations could reach their brains.

The hydrocodone they used is 10 time more powerful than morphine. The procedure should OD him on a powerful sedative, use artificial ventilation to keep him oxygenated, and then stop the heart with sodium bicarbonate solution. After a few minutes the ventilation can be stopped because his brain will be dead.

People rarely ever die in the peaceful way they depict in movies. Almost everyone with at least a bit of a function nervous system will have an agonal response similar to the one described in the FA. This is why executions should not have non-professional witnesses. Certainly not family.


I disagree. Executions should in fact be open to the public, and even publicly broadcast.

That may cause a reassessment of popular support for capital punishment.
2014-01-16 03:35:48 PM
1 votes:
Why should execution be painless?  That seems like a stupid prerequisite.
2014-01-16 03:34:40 PM
1 votes:
It sounds like the guy was under the effect of general anesthesia. The whole point of using general anesthesia in these things: a fallback in case the method itself fails to work properly. It sounds like the fallback worked, but the drug did not, so I'd still call this botched, but not to the point of cruelty.

I guess I'm a bit strange, in that I support the death penalty but not life-without-parole, which I see as far more cruel. That said, I'd support tighter requirements before the death penalty can be applied: hard proof with forensic verification should be necessary, above and beyond the "reasonable doubt" standard needed to convict, or else the maximum sentence is capped at whatever we consider the most severe punishment short of death.
2014-01-16 03:34:25 PM
1 votes:
And while we are at it, this FTFA.


   "We have forgiven him, but that does not negate the need for him to pay for his actions," said a statement released by Carol Avery, Stewart's sister, after McGuire's death.

I would not presume to tell her that she should forgive him, but if this is her attitude, she hasn't forgiven him. That makes her statement just a meaningless sound bite.
2014-01-16 03:34:25 PM
1 votes:

WhyKnot: ElwoodCuse: lennavan: Lando Lincoln: WhyKnot: Lando Lincoln: The Muthaship: So, does he usually snore?

I wonder of the pregnant lady he raped and stabbed to death suffered more or less than he did.....

Nobody was ever wrongfully convicted. Nope.

DNA and he admitted to it.   Try again.

This isn't about him, or his case. It's about a system.

But in this case it was right to do.  You probably want to wait til the next thread to make your case.

Certainty of guilt does not automatically make the death penalty "right"

when such guilt is tied to the rape and killing of a young pregnant woman it does.


If you put extra conditions on it then it's not automatic in the context of the post you were responding to now is it?
2014-01-16 03:34:01 PM
1 votes:
Any justice system that can't impose capital punishment isn't really a justice system at all.
2014-01-16 03:32:10 PM
1 votes:

hobnail: orclover: Also bring back Burning at the stake for kiddy diddlers

If you're trying to be intentionally brutal burning at the stake isn't really effective.  The victim usually asphyxiates before they burn.


I personally like the idea of taking two of the beetles used to strip the flesh off of bones for study and inserting them into the ear canals.
2014-01-16 03:31:07 PM
1 votes:

Lawnchair: Rope, guillotine, firing squad, nitrogen narcosis chamber (apparently no pain like cyanide, no toxic cleanup afterward).  How hard is this people?


I've heard the nitrogen method mentioned before. Basically, pure nitrogen (which is about 80% of what we breathe anyway) is used to displace all of the oxygen in the atmosphere of the chamber. Supposedly, it would avoid the reactions associated with toxic gasses, and also prevent the panic reactions associated with a build-up of carbon dioxide in the system, because the body would still be able to expel carbon dioxide.

Lethal injection is rapidly becoming a farce, and makes firing squads and hanging look like good options by comparison.
2014-01-16 03:28:35 PM
1 votes:

ElwoodCuse: lennavan: Lando Lincoln: WhyKnot: Lando Lincoln: The Muthaship: So, does he usually snore?

I wonder of the pregnant lady he raped and stabbed to death suffered more or less than he did.....

Nobody was ever wrongfully convicted. Nope.

DNA and he admitted to it.   Try again.

This isn't about him, or his case. It's about a system.

But in this case it was right to do.  You probably want to wait til the next thread to make your case.

Certainty of guilt does not automatically make the death penalty "right"


when such guilt is tied to the rape and killing of a young pregnant woman it does.
2014-01-16 03:27:57 PM
1 votes:

orclover: Also bring back Burning at the stake for kiddy diddlers


If you're trying to be intentionally brutal burning at the stake isn't really effective.  The victim usually asphyxiates before they burn.
2014-01-16 03:27:17 PM
1 votes:

Dimensio: EyeballKid: Running a-puck: I'm honestly a bit baffled by people who think torture is ok as long as you're just torturing bad guys.  Torture is not ok.  Ever.  No matter what.  It's TORTURE.
Kill them quickly and painlessly and move on.

I'm honestly baffled by people who think murder is OK as long as you're just murdering bad guys.

Murder is, by definition, unlawful. Therefore the legally authorized taking of human life -- even with premeditation and malice aforethought -- is not murder.


Yep.
2014-01-16 03:26:31 PM
1 votes:

dittybopper: EyeballKid: The Muthaship:
I wonder of the pregnant lady he raped and stabbed to death suffered more or less than he did.....

What does it matter, since killing him will magically bring her back to life?

Oh wait...

No, but it does pretty much guarantee he'll never, ever do it again.


THis.
2014-01-16 03:26:04 PM
1 votes:
...and make his family pay for the bullet.

///Or quit killing prisoners just in case Big Justice might occasionally fark up. Or give the convict the choice between life on death row or a quick bullet.

//Lawyers and their playbook aside, are we the kind of society that tortures prisoners to death?
2014-01-16 03:26:03 PM
1 votes:

ElwoodCuse: lennavan: Lando Lincoln: WhyKnot: Lando Lincoln: The Muthaship: So, does he usually snore?

I wonder of the pregnant lady he raped and stabbed to death suffered more or less than he did.....

Nobody was ever wrongfully convicted. Nope.

DNA and he admitted to it.   Try again.

This isn't about him, or his case. It's about a system.

But in this case it was right to do.  You probably want to wait til the next thread to make your case.

Certainty of guilt does not automatically make the death penalty "right"


It does when you're guilty of raping and murdering a pregnant girl and the family of the victim supports it.
2014-01-16 03:25:31 PM
1 votes:

Somaticasual: super_grass: Just use a firing squad if you want someone dead.

- no complex medical procedure
- hard to screw up
- bullets are pretty damn cheap
- quick death for the convict
- organs that aren't shot can be put to good use

The problem with firing squads is two-fold, though I agree it seems 1000x more merciful than this botched excecution.
1) it leaves most of the firing squad members wondering if they're a murderer for the rest of their life. With poison, at least the 'executioner' gets to tell themselves 'well, i just pressed a button, the timer on the machine did the execution..'
2) basically, it's gruesome for the families of both the victim and the perpetrator. OTOH, compared to this, it's not that gruesome.


A murderer? Seriously? Knowing several people who've killed criminals, either on the job or in self defense, sleep perfectly soundly at night. They get shook up because they had to shoot, but they have no qualms about having killed a vile, disgusting piece of human filth.
2014-01-16 03:25:08 PM
1 votes:

WTFDYW: r1niceboy: WTFDYW: I'm ok with this jpg.

But are you absolutely confident that every single person in the US on death row is there legitimately? Would you be okay with doing this to someone because the cops wanted to get back to their donuts, and the DA was making a run for congress?

When the DNA says you did it, you DID it. Thanks for playing. Please come back later.


You didn't answer the question.

So here's another one: is it OK to only execute poor people?
2014-01-16 03:24:00 PM
1 votes:

lennavan: Lando Lincoln: WhyKnot: Lando Lincoln: The Muthaship: So, does he usually snore?

I wonder of the pregnant lady he raped and stabbed to death suffered more or less than he did.....

Nobody was ever wrongfully convicted. Nope.

DNA and he admitted to it.   Try again.

This isn't about him, or his case. It's about a system.

But in this case it was right to do.  You probably want to wait til the next thread to make your case.


Certainty of guilt does not automatically make the death penalty "right"
2014-01-16 03:20:42 PM
1 votes:
~~put McGuire to death for the 1989 rape and fatal stabbing of a pregnant woman, Joy Stewart.

Why all the sympathy for that murdering POS?  Fark him.  I hope he did suffer, just like his victim.
2014-01-16 03:18:19 PM
1 votes:

Dog Welder: "And more importantly, the people of the state of Ohio should be appalled at what was done here today in their names."

As a resident of Ohio, I'm more appalled at what this jerk did to warrant the death penalty.


He was too poor to afford good lawyers.  That's how he got the death penalty.
2014-01-16 03:17:38 PM
1 votes:

r1niceboy: WTFDYW: I'm ok with this jpg.

But are you absolutely confident that every single person in the US on death row is there legitimately? Would you be okay with doing this to someone because the cops wanted to get back to their donuts, and the DA was making a run for congress?


When the DNA says you did it, you DID it. Thanks for playing. Please come back later.
2014-01-16 03:17:18 PM
1 votes:

dittybopper: using explosive lenses to implode the heads of criminals like the pit of an atomic bomb, which, btw, is quite humane, because the explosive shockwave is faster than nerve conduction speed, so it's like instantly turning off a light


A very messy light.  With lots of atomized brain matter floating around.
2014-01-16 03:17:07 PM
1 votes:

WTFDYW: Gee. I wonder how long the pregnant woman had to suffer at his hands before she punched the clock? I guess that doesn't matter to the FARK.com brigade huh?


Actually, I was thinking eventually a robot could be programmed to victimize the perp in tge same manner the perp victimized the victim(s), in this case sodomize him and slit his throat. Though 25 years in prison might have solved the sodomy bit.

I think death penalties like that would have more meaning.
2014-01-16 03:16:46 PM
1 votes:
I remember in the '70s, an anti-death penalty Senator from Alabama tried to pass legislation requiring all executions to be performed in the University of Alabama football stadium, with a lottery and mandatory attendance, much like jury duty. The executions were to be performed using four horses pulling in different directions, and ropes tied to to the executionee's extremities.

Probably not barbaric enough for today's sophisticated audiences.
2014-01-16 03:15:29 PM
1 votes:
The fact that we are too incompetent to decide who should be executed aside, why is this so hard? General anesthesia exists. Use it and you can stop the heart however you want.
2014-01-16 03:14:49 PM
1 votes:

FlashHarry: so, both cruel AND unusual.

farking barbaric.


It's OK since only poor people go to death row.
2014-01-16 03:14:23 PM
1 votes:

orclover: Quick, Painless, Flawless.  Why fark around?  If drug companies dont want to be associated with executions then we have plenty of alternatives.  Make sure to publisize it and hold up a sign that says "This needlessly brutal execution brought to you by big pharma, be sure to thank them!"
Also bring back Burning at the stake for kiddy diddlers, we could run round the clock footage of all the states executions on its own cable channel with comercials to make up the cost.

Would be the most viewed channel in farking history, and you farking know it.


Who can forget Whitman, Price, and Haddad?
2014-01-16 03:13:53 PM
1 votes:

super_grass: Just use a firing squad if you want someone dead.

- no complex medical procedure
- hard to screw up
- bullets are pretty damn cheap
- quick death for the convict
- organs that aren't shot can be put to good use


The problem with firing squads is two-fold, though I agree it seems 1000x more merciful than this botched excecution.
1) it leaves most of the firing squad members wondering if they're a murderer for the rest of their life. With poison, at least the 'executioner' gets to tell themselves 'well, i just pressed a button, the timer on the machine did the execution..'
2) basically, it's gruesome for the families of both the victim and the perpetrator. OTOH, compared to this, it's not that gruesome.
2014-01-16 03:13:06 PM
1 votes:

Joe Blowme: Dog Welder: "And more importantly, the people of the state of Ohio should be appalled at what was done here today in their names."

As a resident of Ohio, I'm more appalled at what this jerk did to warrant the death penalty.

THIS times eleventy billion


Why not both?
2014-01-16 03:11:26 PM
1 votes:

WTFDYW: I'm ok with this jpg.


But are you absolutely confident that every single person in the US on death row is there legitimately? Would you be okay with doing this to someone because the cops wanted to get back to their donuts, and the DA was making a run for congress?
2014-01-16 03:11:03 PM
1 votes:

super_grass: Just use a firing squad if you want someone dead.


You'd have to automate it. One of the reason they stopped was that the men on the firing squads were (for want of a better word) squeamish, so you got stories of three rounds of volleys from 15 feet that all missed the guys head, so he instead bleeds out very, very painfully.
2014-01-16 03:09:51 PM
1 votes:

Dog Welder: "And more importantly, the people of the state of Ohio should be appalled at what was done here today in their names."

As a resident of Ohio, I'm more appalled at what this jerk did to warrant the death penalty.


THIS times eleventy billion
2014-01-16 03:09:43 PM
1 votes:
Why in the hell would you want to go see your father executed?  Just collecting baggage for my damaged soul.
2014-01-16 03:09:38 PM
1 votes:

for good or for awesome: I heard in Russia they told you they needed to take your picture.  Put you in a little booth and tell you to look at the "camera".  Can't get much more "humane" than that.


Nope in USSR days the execution method if you was on death row your cell had a solid door and then one day when the food tray slot opened instead of your tray coming through the barrel of a pistol did.
2014-01-16 03:08:29 PM
1 votes:

dittybopper: So why don't we just overdose them with morphine?  We know it works, and we know it's painless, and it's less messy than my idea of using explosive lenses to implode the heads of criminals like the pit of an atomic bomb, which, btw, is quite humane, because the explosive shockwave is faster than nerve conduction speed, so it's like instantly turning off a light.  They'd never even know when the end happens, because they'd be dead before the sensations could reach their brains.


I'm curious to know more about humanely imploding human heads.  We routinely accept the euthenasia of animals.  If it's okay for them then it's okay for humans.

Too bad this guy suffered a full 15 minutes, but I imagine he made his victim suffer for at least that long.
2014-01-16 03:06:27 PM
1 votes:

WTFDYW: super_grass: Just use a firing squad if you want someone dead.

- no complex medical procedure
- hard to screw up
- bullets are pretty damn cheap
- quick death for the convict
- organs that aren't shot can be put to good use

Yeah but there's a pretty long waiting list for hearts.


Headshots for the win.
2014-01-16 03:05:22 PM
1 votes:
He was convicted 25 years ago? The swift sword of justice, I guess.
2014-01-16 03:02:34 PM
1 votes:
Just use a firing squad if you want someone dead.

- no complex medical procedure
- hard to screw up
- bullets are pretty damn cheap
- quick death for the convict
- organs that aren't shot can be put to good use
2014-01-16 03:02:34 PM
1 votes:

Oldiron_79: Piece of rope works well and cheaper too.


And 100% recyclable for the next guy.
 
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