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(Huffington Post)   Drug companies won't let you use their products to execute people anymore, do you C) mix up your own brew and hope it doesn't leave people gasping and choking for 15 minutes before they die   (huffingtonpost.com ) divider line
    More: Sick, Dennis McGuire, federal public defender, TV star, official receiver, Hard Rock Hotel, Howard K. Stern, Biggie Smalls, Allen Bohnert  
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9570 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Jan 2014 at 2:59 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-16 07:18:05 PM  

hardinparamedic: I'm going to get off here, go have a drink or two, and enjoy some yummy mexican food. And then sleep soundly tonight knowing I give you chills.


Cool beans, no sense in arguing with someone coming to the table with their own set of "facts."

I'm sure he had himself convinced of the minimal suffering of his victim before he did what he did too.  He is going to heaven, after all.
 
2014-01-16 07:21:03 PM  

BigOle8point: You can cry an ocean of tears over this but in comparison of what he put his victim through, 15 minutes in a drug induced haze is less than fitting. We know you don't like it, you've over stated it. Feel free to continue to shed tears for this POS, but you aren't changing anything or anyone's minds.


I'm not necessarily shedding a tear for him, I'm arguing that we've had 2000 years to grow the fark up from the bronze age "eye for an eye" crap.

If the only way we can figure out to deliver justice is to become ourselves as bad as he is, then we've failed.
 
2014-01-16 07:22:11 PM  
hardinparamedic: Even when they used phenobarb, they gave beyond the LD50 amount in a single bolus dose.

One would hope so, otherwise upwards of 50% of those injected wouldn't expire ;)
 
2014-01-16 07:23:18 PM  

udhq: Banned on the Run: Did you read the facts of the case? If you think there is no difference between the value of his life and his victim's, then I can't help you.
If you lack the ability to make a moral judgment or to tell the difference between right and wrong, I'd like to know what city you're in so I can stay away. You are as sociopathic as the murderer.

Yeah, I'M the sociopath.....

Except I'm the one arguing against murder, you're the one who's ok with it, so long as it's done to who you judge to be the right people.


Killing another human being is ok under the right circumstances, so you can just stop there. Whether or not it should be used as a form of punishment by the State is another matter. By-and-large the reason why LWOP should be used in lieu of the Death Penalty, isn't that it is more appropriate or civilized, but rather it is impermanent and therefore does not end the life of an innocent person prematurely. Further, you could argue that it limits the power of the State to execute its own people, which is a good thing. For all intents and purposes, if we were able to be 100% certain someone was guilty of a crime to warrant LWOP, they should be put to death instead. LWOP is simply a deferred Death Penalty.
 
2014-01-16 07:27:23 PM  

udhq: BigOle8point: You can cry an ocean of tears over this but in comparison of what he put his victim through, 15 minutes in a drug induced haze is less than fitting. We know you don't like it, you've over stated it. Feel free to continue to shed tears for this POS, but you aren't changing anything or anyone's minds.

I'm not necessarily shedding a tear for him, I'm arguing that we've had 2000 years to grow the fark up from the bronze age "eye for an eye" crap.

If the only way we can figure out to deliver justice is to become ourselves as bad as he is, then we've failed.


He was eight months pregnant at home in peace when we broke in and tortured, raped and terrorized him for hours and hours before strangling him with our hands and took joy when the light of life left her eyes?

Then you're absolutely right. We reduced ourselves to his level.
 
2014-01-16 07:27:53 PM  

udhq: Except I'm the one arguing against murder


Murder is illegally killing a person.
People do not rape and kill a woman that is 8 months pregnant.
Sub-human animals perhaps, but not people.
Dennis McGuire forfeited the rights of personhood by his own choices.
Dennis McGuire deserved to be treated like a subhuman piece of swine waste.
Dennis McGuire should have been drowned in the shiat tank at a hog farm.
Dennis McGuire is not a person so killing him is not murder.
Also, execution is legal so, again, it is not murder.
 
2014-01-16 07:28:19 PM  

udhq: BigOle8point: You can cry an ocean of tears over this but in comparison of what he put his victim through, 15 minutes in a drug induced haze is less than fitting. We know you don't like it, you've over stated it. Feel free to continue to shed tears for this POS, but you aren't changing anything or anyone's minds.

I'm not necessarily shedding a tear for him, I'm arguing that we've had 2000 years to grow the fark up from the bronze age "eye for an eye" crap.

If the only way we can figure out to deliver justice is to become ourselves as bad as he is, then we've failed.


I'm not saying the Death Penalty is the solution, but I am curious, what is your solution. Take this guy as a prime example. Be explicitly clear what you would favor and the right course of action would be. You don't get to criticize others and not state what you believe.
 
2014-01-16 07:29:26 PM  
Still to good for Cheney.
 
2014-01-16 07:29:42 PM  

udhq: Banned on the Run: Did you read the facts of the case? If you think there is no difference between the value of his life and his victim's, then I can't help you.
If you lack the ability to make a moral judgment or to tell the difference between right and wrong, I'd like to know what city you're in so I can stay away. You are as sociopathic as the murderer.

Yeah, I'M the sociopath.....

Except I'm the one arguing against murder, you're the one who's ok with it, so long as it's done to who you judge to be the right people.


Yes.  Some people need to die.
You think that all living beings have the same right to life, regardless of what they have done.

www.biography.com

And you think that the German state executing this guy would have been the moral equivalent his crimes?

If you still can't see that, based on their actions, not all humans have the same right to life -- after I Godwinned this thread -- then I truly feel sorry for you.
 
2014-01-16 07:30:14 PM  

udhq: hardinparamedic: I'm going to get off here, go have a drink or two, and enjoy some yummy mexican food. And then sleep soundly tonight knowing I give you chills.

Cool beans, no sense in arguing with someone coming to the table with their own set of "facts."

I'm sure he had himself convinced of the minimal suffering of his victim before he did what he did too.  He is going to heaven, after all.


Pretty sure there was minimal suffering. We give the same drugs to thousands of people every day.  They get used for anesthesia induction.  Pretty much, the difference between anesthesia induction and this guy is airway support.

Unless you're trying to tell me that everyone who gets inducted for surgery is going through amazing amounts of suffering....

Personal experience when I got hit with versed and dilaudid.....about 3 seconds of "Oh wow this feels awesome", then everything was gone.  I literally went from that moment, to blinking and opening my eyes in a recovery ward.  Absolutely no awareness.  Pretty sure that the mechanism of action doesn't change, just because they're using the meds to terminate a life.


(before you mention anesthesia awareness, that happens when the short action IV drugs wear off, and for some reason, the inhaled anesthetic doesn't kick in.)
 
2014-01-16 07:32:46 PM  

the money is in the banana stand: LWOP is simply a deferred Death Penalty.


The problem with LWOP is that defendants that are not facing death do not get a FREE expert defense attorney provided with abundant resources like independent lab testing, defense investigators, expert witnesses, psychologists and free automatic appeals on the state and federal levels and all the other stuff that makes a death penalty case cost a million dollars. An innocent person is much MUCH more likely to be sentenced to LWOP than sentenced to die.
 
2014-01-16 07:33:12 PM  
the money is in the banana stand:

What makes segregating that person from society morally superior? How would you propose the person segregated be treated?

Well you've already pointed out one item in the moral superiority column which is that this allows a mistake to be corrected and person to be exonerated prior to it not mattering at all.  Per amnesty international "Since 1973, over 130 people have been released from death rows throughout the country due to evidence of their wrongful convictions."  http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us-death-pena l ty-facts/death-penalty-and-innocence

so there's that.  Beyond that primarily my concern is what makes a persons moral judgment that a person deserves death valid?  Once you start making decisions about who should live and who should die you start sounding a lot more like the person you're choosing to kill for their crime.  Finally I believe that killing is generally wrong.  I would kill in self defense or in defense of a third party.  That's about the extent of the exception though.  Therefore, morally, living bad man is superior to dead bad man if certain criteria are met which leads us to part two of your question.

A murderer should be treated in a humane and reasonable manner.  They should be fed, clothed, and sheltered to such an extent that they do not starve, and are not subject to the elements.  They should be given a task that might add some value to society be it stamping license plates or some other menial task that is useful in keeping society functioning.
 
2014-01-16 07:35:45 PM  

Banned on the Run: udhq: Banned on the Run: Did you read the facts of the case? If you think there is no difference between the value of his life and his victim's, then I can't help you.
If you lack the ability to make a moral judgment or to tell the difference between right and wrong, I'd like to know what city you're in so I can stay away. You are as sociopathic as the murderer.

Yeah, I'M the sociopath.....

Except I'm the one arguing against murder, you're the one who's ok with it, so long as it's done to who you judge to be the right people.

Yes.  Some people need to die.
You think that all living beings have the same right to life, regardless of what they have done.

[www.biography.com image 402x402]

And you think that the German state executing this guy would have been the moral equivalent his crimes?

If you still can't see that, based on their actions, not all humans have the same right to life -- after I Godwinned this thread -- then I truly feel sorry for you.


You know who else thought that not all humans have the same right to life?
 
2014-01-16 07:38:10 PM  

angry bunny: A murderer should be treated in a humane and reasonable manner.  They should be fed, clothed, and sheltered to such an extent that they do not starve, and are not subject to the elements.  They should be given a task that might add some value to society be it stamping license plates or some other menial task that is useful in keeping society functioning.


... or we could just chop them up and donate their organs to good honest people.  Parting them out might be their best value to society.  Killers aren't really human.  They are subhuman garbage.  There is need to be humane about it.
 
2014-01-16 07:55:12 PM  

StRalphTheLiar: Oldiron_79: Piece of rope works well and cheaper too.

And 100% recyclable for the next guy.


And when done right, is instant death.
 
2014-01-16 07:56:17 PM  
This was always effective.
i.dailymail.co.uk
And the sing-alongs were fun!
 
2014-01-16 07:58:42 PM  
...I'm sorry, have we  completely lost our knowledge of poisons as a society? Holy fark, if you're gonna kill 'em, do it fast, painless, problem-free.
 
2014-01-16 08:00:17 PM  

EnglishMan: You know who else thought that not all humans have the same right to life?


Zeus, Osiris, Jehovah, Odin, Marduk, Brahma, Cronus, Isis, Uranus, Jupiter, Hadad, Shiva, Tezcatlipoca, Inti, Dagda, Ra, Shangdi, Yahweh, and Vishnu.  In other words, pretty much everyone ever to live on this planet beside you and some new-age hippies and maybe JesusFyckingChrist.
 
2014-01-16 08:04:49 PM  

PsiChick: ...I'm sorry, have we  completely lost our knowledge of poisons as a society? Holy fark, if you're gonna kill 'em, do it fast, painless, problem-free.


Painless?  Why?  In case we got the wrong guy?  Screw that!  Don't kill him unless you are sure you got the right guy.  If he did something worthy of execution, it might as well hurt.  This painless crap seems like hedging your bets against wrongful execution.  We shouldn't kill anyone that we are not willing to stake to a bed of hungry ants.
 
2014-01-16 08:05:27 PM  
I vote for Wu's pigs
 
2014-01-16 08:06:25 PM  

scubamage: Agonal breathing while someone is dying. I am shocked. SHOCKED.

Honestly though, the guillotine was a marvelous invention. Less than 1 second and it was over, guaranteed. Even firing squad can't guarantee that. PLUS they're great for politicians.


The French used them so much the channels for the blade would clog and they'd have to hit someone two or three times.

The only good guillotine is a clean guillotine.
 
2014-01-16 08:08:49 PM  
Lets do it the best korea way, single bullet to the head, bill the family for the bullet.
 
2014-01-16 08:14:02 PM  

TheWhoppah: PsiChick: ...I'm sorry, have we  completely lost our knowledge of poisons as a society? Holy fark, if you're gonna kill 'em, do it fast, painless, problem-free.

Painless?  Why?  In case we got the wrong guy?  Screw that!  Don't kill him unless you are sure you got the right guy.  If he did something worthy of execution, it might as well hurt.  This painless crap seems like hedging your bets against wrongful execution.  We shouldn't kill anyone that we are not willing to stake to a bed of hungry ants.


Because the point of the death penalty isn't the painfulness of the death, it's just the death. Introducing painfulness means you have to legislate how painful deaths are for various crimes and test each individual method against the Eighth Amendment. Easier to just poison 'em quickly.
 
2014-01-16 08:19:17 PM  

TheWhoppah: PsiChick: ...I'm sorry, have we  completely lost our knowledge of poisons as a society? Holy fark, if you're gonna kill 'em, do it fast, painless, problem-free.

Painless?  Why?  In case we got the wrong guy?  Screw that!  Don't kill him unless you are sure you got the right guy.  If he did something worthy of execution, it might as well hurt.  This painless crap seems like hedging your bets against wrongful execution.  We shouldn't kill anyone that we are not willing to stake to a bed of hungry ants.


Above everything else, ^^^this^^^ is what I object to; people who think our criminal justice system exists for the sole purpose of satisfying their own bloodlust.
 
2014-01-16 08:23:01 PM  

PsiChick: TheWhoppah: PsiChick: ...I'm sorry, have we  completely lost our knowledge of poisons as a society? Holy fark, if you're gonna kill 'em, do it fast, painless, problem-free.

Painless?  Why?  In case we got the wrong guy?  Screw that!  Don't kill him unless you are sure you got the right guy.  If he did something worthy of execution, it might as well hurt.  This painless crap seems like hedging your bets against wrongful execution.  We shouldn't kill anyone that we are not willing to stake to a bed of hungry ants.

Because the point of the death penalty isn't the painfulness of the death, it's just the death. Introducing painfulness means you have to legislate how painful deaths are for various crimes and test each individual method against the Eighth Amendment. Easier to just poison 'em quickly.


The death penalty is a penalty.  A punishment. Its OK for punishment to hurt.  When the 8th amendment was written people were still beheaded, drawn and quartered and boiled in oil. Those deaths may be cruel but they were not necessarily unusual. On the other hand hanging and firing squad were classy and humane ways to die.
 
2014-01-16 08:23:56 PM  

udhq: TheWhoppah: PsiChick: ...I'm sorry, have we  completely lost our knowledge of poisons as a society? Holy fark, if you're gonna kill 'em, do it fast, painless, problem-free.

Painless?  Why?  In case we got the wrong guy?  Screw that!  Don't kill him unless you are sure you got the right guy.  If he did something worthy of execution, it might as well hurt.  This painless crap seems like hedging your bets against wrongful execution.  We shouldn't kill anyone that we are not willing to stake to a bed of hungry ants.

Above everything else, ^^^this^^^ is what I object to; people who think our criminal justice system exists for the sole purpose of satisfying their own bloodlust.


Revenge is the primary function of justice.  No it is not the ONLY function but it is the primary function.
 
2014-01-16 08:26:36 PM  

abiigdog: Lets do it the best korea way, single bullet to the head, bill the family for the bullet.


What if the family can't pay, you shoot the next in line and bill the family for two bullets?   .....three bullets?   ......four bullets?    ......five bullets?   .....six bullets?    Uh oh, gun is empty.
 
2014-01-16 08:28:51 PM  

TheWhoppah: Revenge is the primary function of justice. No it is not the ONLY function but it is the primary function.


Nope.  The organizing principle of our criminal justice system is restorative justice, not retributive justice, like they have in most 3rd world shiat holes.
 
2014-01-16 08:29:14 PM  

EnglishMan: Banned on the Run: udhq: Banned on the Run: Did you read the facts of the case? If you think there is no difference between the value of his life and his victim's, then I can't help you.
If you lack the ability to make a moral judgment or to tell the difference between right and wrong, I'd like to know what city you're in so I can stay away. You are as sociopathic as the murderer.

Yeah, I'M the sociopath.....

Except I'm the one arguing against murder, you're the one who's ok with it, so long as it's done to who you judge to be the right people.

Yes.  Some people need to die.
You think that all living beings have the same right to life, regardless of what they have done.

[www.biography.com image 402x402]

And you think that the German state executing this guy would have been the moral equivalent his crimes?

If you still can't see that, based on their actions, not all humans have the same right to life -- after I Godwinned this thread -- then I truly feel sorry for you.

You know who else thought that not all humans have the same right to life?


*facepalm
 
2014-01-16 08:33:26 PM  

TheWhoppah: PsiChick: TheWhoppah: PsiChick: ...I'm sorry, have we  completely lost our knowledge of poisons as a society? Holy fark, if you're gonna kill 'em, do it fast, painless, problem-free.

Painless?  Why?  In case we got the wrong guy?  Screw that!  Don't kill him unless you are sure you got the right guy.  If he did something worthy of execution, it might as well hurt.  This painless crap seems like hedging your bets against wrongful execution.  We shouldn't kill anyone that we are not willing to stake to a bed of hungry ants.

Because the point of the death penalty isn't the painfulness of the death, it's just the death. Introducing painfulness means you have to legislate how painful deaths are for various crimes and test each individual method against the Eighth Amendment. Easier to just poison 'em quickly.

The death penalty is a penalty.  A punishment. Its OK for punishment to hurt.  When the 8th amendment was written people were still beheaded, drawn and quartered and boiled in oil. Those deaths may be cruel but they were not necessarily unusual. On the other hand hanging and firing squad were classy and humane ways to die.


Well, if you want to argue that we should kill people in painful ways, you go right ahead, but I and the rest of civilized society will be more than slightly disgusted by that notion. We're a civilized people, not a mob out for vengeance.
 
2014-01-16 08:48:36 PM  

OldDog: Fkin barbaric is raping and stabbing an 8 months pregnant woman.

So..im ok with this.


I would agree with you, and if I had a chance to look at the evidence against him, I might still. However, there have been SO MANY people released from death row (and regular prison) because they were falsely convicted that I simply can't automatically agree.

As for the horrific nature of the crime, granted it is horrific, and if he really did it, he should have been put to death 25 years ago. HOWEVER, when I think about the horrendous nature of a crime I immediately think of the West Memphis Three case. Three teens were convicted of an absolutely brutal rape and slaughter of three little 8-year-old boys. Everyone wanted to kill them with their bare hands....but it turned out that the three teens did NOT kill those little boys and the cops farked up the case so badly that the actual perpetrator (or perpetrators) will never be caught.

So HORRIFIC CRIME does not equal KILL ANYONE IN RETALIATION. You have to get the right ones, and I'm not sure in every instance that that's the case.

West Memphis Three has tempered my urge for revenge quite a bit.
 
2014-01-16 08:57:17 PM  
Sometimes I think humanity should be wiped off the face of the planet.  This guy deserved to die, but there is no logical reason why it should be long and painful.  Make it over quick We are supposed to have evolved from being barbarians into a civilized society.  A civilized society does not use torture as a punishment.  A bunch of un-evolved cavemen in this thread.
 
2014-01-16 08:58:20 PM  

WTFDYW: Gee. I wonder how long the pregnant woman had to suffer at his hands before she punched the clock? I guess that doesn't matter to the FARK.com brigade huh?


I agree, he is a rapist and murderer, I don't care one bit if he suffered.
 
2014-01-16 09:01:21 PM  

TheWhoppah: When the 8th amendment was written people were still beheaded, drawn and quartered and boiled in oil.


And when the 8th Amendment was written you could still own a man.   Get a grip.  Society progresses whether you want it to or not.
 
2014-01-16 09:02:39 PM  

sore_bluto: Punishment way better than the death penalty:

Supermax isolation.  23.5 hour lockdown.  Other half hour can be spent showering or shuffling in a 10'x4' dog run.  No human contact ever.  Bland food delivered by mask wearing, silent guard.  No books, TV, radio, or stimulation of any kind.  No visitors.  No pillow.  No window. Just a 2" thick foam mat, concrete, and a steel crapper/sink.  Forever.

Way cheaper than the death penalty and guaranteed to drive any person insane.  And deemed perfectly legal.  Just set it and forget it.

Yes, the lawyer can visit, but only until the appeals are exhausted, and because this would be a garden variety prison term and not an execution, the appeals process would end quickly and the bastard wouldn't enjoy death row "cause celebre" status.


How is that cheaper than killing them and being done with them forever?

Even in your harsh picture, they still (assumedly) receive food/water, plus the required care and maintenance of the facility, shich doesn't come for free either...

Killing them once with a few dollars worth of whatever needs to be used is cheaper than a lifetime of keeping them alive.
 
2014-01-16 09:05:31 PM  

HindiDiscoMonster: Kit Fister: Coder: A lot of people in this thread mistakenly think we want them to have compassion for this guy. Not at all. We want you to have an ethics system more robust than "Do I feel compassion for this guy?"

My ethics system boils down to:

Is he a nice guy? Yes/no
Is his condition the result of his own actions? yes/no
Was he capable of understanding the consequences of his own actions? yes/no
Is he legitimately sorry for what he did? Yes/no
Will he do it again? Yes/no
Does his existence pose a threat to others? Yes/no


Beyond that, I see death as simply a form of cold storage. I don't promote death as a means of revenge, but simply as a means of permanently removing the person from the gene pool and freeing up a cell, guards, and resources for others.

I find it interesting that you missed the most important and probably should be the first thought:

did he commit the crime: yes/no


He admitted to the crime and DNA evidence proved it, dumbarse.
 
2014-01-16 09:08:42 PM  

dameron: TheWhoppah: When the 8th amendment was written people were still beheaded, drawn and quartered and boiled in oil.

And when the 8th Amendment was written you could still own a man.   Get a grip.  Society progresses whether you want it to or not.


This.  A lot of passionate defenders in this thread don't seem to mind that if nothing else, what happened here was clearly unconstitutional.
 
2014-01-16 09:19:08 PM  
It's been said better than I can word it in this thread but it bears repeating.  Just because I and others are against the death penalty doesn't me we want you to give a shiat about this guy. He was seemingly human garbage and the world won't miss him.  The point that many of us are making isn't that this man or any other scumbag should live. The point is that the state should not be killing them.
 
2014-01-16 09:25:05 PM  

Egoy3k: It's been said better than I can word it in this thread but it bears repeating.  Just because I and others are against the death penalty doesn't me we want you to give a shiat about this guy. He was seemingly human garbage and the world won't miss him.  The point that many of us are making isn't that this man or any other scumbag should live. The point is that the state should not be killing them.


Im ok with this. Lets start a sign up list.

1. bigole8point
 
2014-01-16 09:35:17 PM  

udhq: dameron: TheWhoppah: When the 8th amendment was written people were still beheaded, drawn and quartered and boiled in oil.

And when the 8th Amendment was written you could still own a man.   Get a grip.  Society progresses whether you want it to or not.

This.  A lot of passionate defenders in this thread don't seem to mind that if nothing else, what happened here was clearly unconstitutional.


You know how I know you don't know anything about the Constitution?

www.falconstormbooks.com

You have a Constitutional right to a FAIR trial.  If you are convicted in a fair trial, but happen to be actually innocent, you do NOT have a right to avoid the punishment accessed at trial.  Even capital punishment.
 
2014-01-16 09:36:40 PM  

beaverfetus: anesthetized people gasp and agonal breathing when they are over sedated, and about to become apneic.


I've got sleep apnea, and from my my wife said it was like watching me choke to death all night long.  Now I got the CPAP, but I'm getting surgery later this year.
 
2014-01-16 09:48:01 PM  

udhq: TheWhoppah: Revenge is the primary function of justice. No it is not the ONLY function but it is the primary function.

Nope.  The organizing principle of our criminal justice system is restorative justice, not retributive justice, like they have in most 3rd world shiat holes.


Ignorance is not attractive so pay attention and you might learn something.  Criminal courts focus on retribution, deterrence and rehabilitation usually in that order.   Restorative justice is the realm of civil courts. And don't forget that civil courts primarily exist to prevent monetary disputes from escalating into criminal affairs.
 
2014-01-16 09:48:20 PM  

TheWhoppah: udhq: dameron: TheWhoppah: When the 8th amendment was written people were still beheaded, drawn and quartered and boiled in oil.

And when the 8th Amendment was written you could still own a man.   Get a grip.  Society progresses whether you want it to or not.

This.  A lot of passionate defenders in this thread don't seem to mind that if nothing else, what happened here was clearly unconstitutional.

You know how I know you don't know anything about the Constitution?

[www.falconstormbooks.com image 480x320]

You have a Constitutional right to a FAIR trial.  If you are convicted in a fair trial, but happen to be actually innocent, you do NOT have a right to avoid the punishment accessed at trial.  Even capital punishment.


You do, however, have a constitutional right not to be subject to "cruel or unusual" punishment.

There seems to be some debate as to whether this situation could be considered "cruel", but even if it's not, you can't deny that gurgling and gasping for air for 15 minutes on an experimental drug cocktail that has never been successfully used in an execution is certainly unusual by any measure.
 
2014-01-16 09:52:44 PM  

udhq: There seems to be some debate as to whether this situation could be considered "cruel", but even if it's not, you can't deny that gurgling and gasping for air for 15 minutes on an experimental drug cocktail that has never been successfully used in an execution is certainly unusual by any measure.


OK so it seems clear that you agree that unusual punishments are not unconstitutional if they are not also cruel. So whats your angle?  Are you saying that any punishment that causes death is inherently cruel, even if there is no pain or consciousness?  Are you suggesting we can infer pain from the reflexive noises he produced?
 
2014-01-16 09:59:51 PM  

dameron: TheWhoppah: When the 8th amendment was written people were still beheaded, drawn and quartered and boiled in oil.

And when the 8th Amendment was written you could still own a man.   Get a grip.  Society progresses whether you want it to or not.


PsiChick: TheWhoppah: PsiChick: TheWhoppah: PsiChick: ...I'm sorry, have we  completely lost our knowledge of poisons as a society? Holy fark, if you're gonna kill 'em, do it fast, painless, problem-free.

Painless?  Why?  In case we got the wrong guy?  Screw that!  Don't kill him unless you are sure you got the right guy.  If he did something worthy of execution, it might as well hurt.  This painless crap seems like hedging your bets against wrongful execution.  We shouldn't kill anyone that we are not willing to stake to a bed of hungry ants.

Because the point of the death penalty isn't the painfulness of the death, it's just the death. Introducing painfulness means you have to legislate how painful deaths are for various crimes and test each individual method against the Eighth Amendment. Easier to just poison 'em quickly.

The death penalty is a penalty.  A punishment. Its OK for punishment to hurt.  When the 8th amendment was written people were still beheaded, drawn and quartered and boiled in oil. Those deaths may be cruel but they were not necessarily unusual. On the other hand hanging and firing squad were classy and humane ways to die.

Well, if you want to argue that we should kill people in painful ways, you go right ahead, but I and the rest of civilized society will be more than slightly disgusted by that notion. We're a civilized people, not a mob out for vengeance.


You equate the infliction of pain with uncivilized behavior.  You mention vengeance as if it were a dirty word.  Yet you've offered nothing in support of either proposition.   Vengeance is the root of all justice.  Citizens cede their natural right to seek justice to the government in return for orderly professional-grade high quality vengeance.  This is a fundamental element of the social contract between man and government.
 
2014-01-16 10:03:10 PM  

TheWhoppah: udhq: There seems to be some debate as to whether this situation could be considered "cruel", but even if it's not, you can't deny that gurgling and gasping for air for 15 minutes on an experimental drug cocktail that has never been successfully used in an execution is certainly unusual by any measure.

OK so it seems clear that you agree that unusual punishments are not unconstitutional if they are not also cruel. So whats your angle?  Are you saying that any punishment that causes death is inherently cruel, even if there is no pain or consciousness?  Are you suggesting we can infer pain from the reflexive noises he produced?


Give it up.
He thinks that Ohio executing this guy is the moral equivalent of raping and stabbing a pregnant woman.

You're debating someone with the rationality of PETA.
 
2014-01-16 10:04:34 PM  

TheWhoppah: You equate the infliction of pain with uncivilized behavior.  You mention vengeance as if it were a dirty word.  Yet you've offered nothing in support of either proposition.   Vengeance is the root of all justice.  Citizens cede their natural right to seek justice to the government in return for orderly professional-grade high quality vengeance.  This is a fundamental element of the social contract between man and government.


...That's a  really interesting take on it, but most of us cede our right to vengeance to the government because we recognize we might one day be on the wrong end of the stick, and would prefer the law to treat us fairly, so we acknowledge other people have to be treated fairly too. That's called 'justice'. I mean,  you might be doing that, but I don't think the rest of us are...
 
2014-01-16 10:08:24 PM  

PsiChick: TheWhoppah: You equate the infliction of pain with uncivilized behavior.  You mention vengeance as if it were a dirty word.  Yet you've offered nothing in support of either proposition.   Vengeance is the root of all justice.  Citizens cede their natural right to seek justice to the government in return for orderly professional-grade high quality vengeance.  This is a fundamental element of the social contract between man and government.

...That's a  really interesting take on it, but most of us cede our right to vengeance to the government because we recognize we might one day be on the wrong end of the stick, and would prefer the law to treat us fairly, so we acknowledge other people have to be treated fairly too. That's called 'justice'. I mean,  you might be doing that, but I don't think the rest of us are...


What about Batman? He is Vengeance. He is THE NIGHT.
 
2014-01-16 10:10:24 PM  
Although this whole story is full of fail from all sides, a good portion of the fail should be awarded to the drug company. First, they agreed to sell drugs to the state knowing full well what they were to be used for. Then they sold said drugs to the state for many years. Then, they have a change of heart which causes a considerable beaurocratic nightmare for the state that now has to get another cocktail approved. The end result? Scumbags taking a long time to die while the state experiments with new cocktails.
I'm not against the death penalty, but the entire process is unnecessarily expensive, prone to complications and hog-tied with red tape.
 
2014-01-16 10:12:31 PM  

Fano: PsiChick: TheWhoppah: You equate the infliction of pain with uncivilized behavior.  You mention vengeance as if it were a dirty word.  Yet you've offered nothing in support of either proposition.   Vengeance is the root of all justice.  Citizens cede their natural right to seek justice to the government in return for orderly professional-grade high quality vengeance.  This is a fundamental element of the social contract between man and government.

...That's a  really interesting take on it, but most of us cede our right to vengeance to the government because we recognize we might one day be on the wrong end of the stick, and would prefer the law to treat us fairly, so we acknowledge other people have to be treated fairly too. That's called 'justice'. I mean,  you might be doing that, but I don't think the rest of us are...

What about Batman? He is Vengeance. He is THE NIGHT.


/Snark on:

Gotham City is not a how-to manual

/snark
 
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