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(Huffington Post)   Drug companies won't let you use their products to execute people anymore, do you C) mix up your own brew and hope it doesn't leave people gasping and choking for 15 minutes before they die   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 614
    More: Sick, Dennis McGuire, federal public defender, TV star, official receiver, Hard Rock Hotel, Howard K. Stern, Biggie Smalls, Allen Bohnert  
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9564 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Jan 2014 at 2:59 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-16 05:21:52 PM  
Re-usable and effective:
wannaberapper.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-01-16 05:21:52 PM  
oh noes!
the man who sodomized a pregnant woma, tearing her open
before pushing metal into her body over and over until she and her child died..
..expired surrounded by his loved ones,
given a nice meal, a chance to make his spiritual preparation
 and a chance to speak his final words to his family

 you have a problem because he snorted and twitched on a bed

interesting
 
2014-01-16 05:21:54 PM  

Banned on the Run: Just enough propofol to induce unconsciousness, then succinylcholine to paralyze.

/As you know, same combo used routinely in anesthesia induction.  They just skip that important "stick a tube in the trachea and turn on the ventilator" step.


The problem is that the combination used was explicitly developed because of the short half-lives of both drugs. Propofol has a two minute half-life after the infusion is cut off, and about five to ten minutes after bolusing. Anectine (Sux) has a life of about five minutes after the fasiculations stop.

They used Pavulon for the paralytic before going to the one drug/two drug methods with a sedative and opiate they use now. fourty five minute to two hour life span depending on patient.

Which, would be a bad thing if the propofol wore off, or was underdosed before cardiac arrest was induced. That would mean the person was aware of everything happening to him, including suffocating.

Hardly humane. And I wouldn't wish that on the most heinous monster.
 
2014-01-16 05:24:22 PM  
Just kill death row inmates by oxygen displacement. Nitrogen is readily available, cheap, we're certainly not going to run out of it, it's painless... Not sure about whether it damages organs, but I'd suspect not, since you're basically just asphyxiating.

As for why it should be painless, why not? Just because someone is a monster doesn't mean we have to be one too. Just kill them quickly and painlessly and be done with it.

Threads like this are great for expanding my collection of names in 'ITG Yellow' though!
 
2014-01-16 05:24:38 PM  

The Fett: Yellow Beard: I find it fascinating that the people who are staunch anti-death penalty types are by and large huge supporters of abortion. I wonder what those future generations will think of that.

I find it fascinating that the people who support the death penalty by and large are anti-abortion with the justification that, "all life is sacred"


That's why I'm pro-death -- pro-death penalty and pro-choice.
 
2014-01-16 05:24:49 PM  

Millennium: Which is impossible, yet that impossibility does not obviate the need to have this option.


I see no need of any kind.  Obviously there's a need to prevent criminals from re-offending, but that can be accomplished in other ways that are less final.

Millennium: This is enough.


It is not.
 
2014-01-16 05:25:05 PM  
Are we ACTUALLY having a problem figuring how to kill human beings?  REALLY?

Sometime about 200 years ago someone figured out a good method.  You put a metal ball in a big metal tube, and pack explosives behind it.  The ball is expelled with such force it can penetrate a human body and come flying out the other side.

Why the fark is this a problem?
 
2014-01-16 05:26:27 PM  
I wonder why we never see the Right to Lifers in these threads?
 
2014-01-16 05:26:36 PM  

hardinparamedic: Which, would be a bad thing if the propofol wore off, or was underdosed before cardiac arrest was induced. That would mean the person was aware of everything happening to him, including suffocating.


I'm pretty sure the woman who was anally raped and then stabbed to death was aware of everything that was happening to her.  This guy not only wished that but actually inflicted that upon her.

hardinparamedic: Hardly humane. And I wouldn't wish that on the most heinous monster.


Worst case scenario as you have outlined, this guy's last moments on earth would have been spent realizing to a tiny degree what it would have been like to be his victim.

I'm really comin up empty with the empathy here today.
 
2014-01-16 05:26:39 PM  

Rreal: This then, leaves but 2 reasons for the death penalty,  punishment of the guilty and the enjoyment of those watching/performing the punishment.


whalethen.com

Revenge is plenty sufficient justification for the execution of killers.  Spectacle is bonus.
 
2014-01-16 05:27:52 PM  

WTFDYW: Gee. I wonder how long the pregnant woman had to suffer at his hands before she punched the clock? I guess that doesn't matter to the FARK.com brigade huh?


TIL our sense of human decency and rule of law goes out the window when vengeance is at stake.
 
2014-01-16 05:28:30 PM  

edmo: I wonder why we never see the Right to Lifers in these threads?


You do -- they're waving torches & pitchforks and baying for blood.
 
2014-01-16 05:29:05 PM  
They gave me Hydromorphone plenty of times when I had diverticulitis and ended up in the ER curled up in a ball crying like a beeyotch. They gave me that and I didn't feel a damn thing until it wore off...
 
2014-01-16 05:29:37 PM  

lennavan: hardinparamedic: Which, would be a bad thing if the propofol wore off, or was underdosed before cardiac arrest was induced. That would mean the person was aware of everything happening to him, including suffocating.

I'm pretty sure the woman who was anally raped and then stabbed to death was aware of everything that was happening to her.  This guy not only wished that but actually inflicted that upon her.

hardinparamedic: Hardly humane. And I wouldn't wish that on the most heinous monster.

Worst case scenario as you have outlined, this guy's last moments on earth would have been spent realizing to a tiny degree what it would have been like to be his victim.

I'm really comin up empty with the empathy here today.


Same here.  This guy gave up any right to be treated like a person the moment her carried out his act.  Gave over Johnny.  You get nothing.  You have no more say, no more value.  You crossed the line and you can't come back.
 
2014-01-16 05:29:55 PM  

lennavan: I'm really comin up empty with the empathy here today.


And that's not sociopathic in the least.

The purpose of the death penalty is to remove someone who's actions, beyond a reasonable doubt, are so heinous that society can no longer tolerate their existence. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you want torture, steal obama's magic time machine and go back a few hundred years.
 
2014-01-16 05:31:01 PM  

Lem Motlow: lennavan: hardinparamedic: Which, would be a bad thing if the propofol wore off, or was underdosed before cardiac arrest was induced. That would mean the person was aware of everything happening to him, including suffocating.

I'm pretty sure the woman who was anally raped and then stabbed to death was aware of everything that was happening to her.  This guy not only wished that but actually inflicted that upon her.

hardinparamedic: Hardly humane. And I wouldn't wish that on the most heinous monster.

Worst case scenario as you have outlined, this guy's last moments on earth would have been spent realizing to a tiny degree what it would have been like to be his victim.

I'm really comin up empty with the empathy here today.

Same here.  This guy gave up any right to be treated like a person the moment her carried out his act.  Gave  Game over Johnny.  You get nothing.  You have no more say, no more value.  You crossed the line and you can't come back.


FTFM
 
2014-01-16 05:32:04 PM  

hardinparamedic: Banned on the Run: Just enough propofol to induce unconsciousness, then succinylcholine to paralyze.

/As you know, same combo used routinely in anesthesia induction.  They just skip that important "stick a tube in the trachea and turn on the ventilator" step.

The problem is that the combination used was explicitly developed because of the short half-lives of both drugs. Propofol has a two minute half-life after the infusion is cut off, and about five to ten minutes after bolusing. Anectine (Sux) has a life of about five minutes after the fasiculations stop.

They used Pavulon for the paralytic before going to the one drug/two drug methods with a sedative and opiate they use now. fourty five minute to two hour life span depending on patient.

Which, would be a bad thing if the propofol wore off, or was underdosed before cardiac arrest was induced. That would mean the person was aware of everything happening to him, including suffocating.

Hardly humane. And I wouldn't wish that on the most heinous monster.


CSB:
A friend in the ER had a drunk combative patient who needed an emergent procedure (peritoneal lavage, I think).  They gave him the succs and as he was lying there paralyzed, calmly explained to him that if he didn't behave, the next time he might not get intubated.  They tubed him, did the procedure, and 15 minutes later when the tube came out, the patient was a perfect gentleman.

Illegal, maybe.  Unethical, yes.  Funny, you're goddamned right
 
2014-01-16 05:32:34 PM  

Enigmamf: TIL our sense of human decency and rule of law goes out the window when vengeance is at stake.


Vengeance is the bedrock upon which the rule of law was built,  There is no justice without vengeance.
 
2014-01-16 05:32:46 PM  
Vengeance and justice aren't the same things.  The United States should do away with the death penalty, then we don't have to worry about idiotic crap like this.  Keep murders and rapist segregated from society so they can't murder and rape. Deprive them of various freedoms.  Stop killing them though.

There's no net benefit here that can't be achieved through more humane means.  When the government executes someone it's sanctioning and in fact performing the act of killing another living breathing thinking person.  I can't justify that because that person can be contained and doesn't have to ever pose a threat to any one else.  You're not killing that person to make the society as whole safer, so why are you killing that person?  It's vengeance and it's wrong.
 
2014-01-16 05:35:25 PM  

hardinparamedic: lennavan: I'm really comin up empty with the empathy here today.

And that's not sociopathic in the least.


Failing to empathize with a raping murder is sociopathic in your mind?  Wow.

hardinparamedic: The purpose of the death penalty is to remove someone who's actions, beyond a reasonable doubt, are so heinous that society can no longer tolerate their existence. Nothing more, nothing less.


No, the purpose is vengeance.  Life in prison would remove them from society, dropping them off on an abandoned island in the ocean would also work.  Actively killing them is about providing vengeance for the surviving victims.

hardinparamedic: If you want torture, steal obama's magic time machine and go back a few hundred years.


Or back to the Bush years for waterboarding.
 
2014-01-16 05:35:30 PM  

hardinparamedic: BigLuca: So what the Nazis did to the Jews was not murder?

[fc06.deviantart.net image 600x457].

That was stupid, and you should feel bad for posting it.


Stop posting?? Hell I just got here!

And I was just trying to make a point that murder is a legal definition, but is used in general parlance more often as a moral judgement.  It doesn't matter what the technical definition of a word if people don't use it that way.

/which begs the question...
 
2014-01-16 05:36:38 PM  

hardinparamedic: [...] The purpose of the death penalty is to remove someone who's actions, beyond a reasonable doubt, are so heinous that society can no longer tolerate their existence. Nothing more, nothing less.


Bzzzt.  Wrong.  That is one reason but it is not the only reason.  Another is to exhibit our disgust with killers.  To show that they are subhuman and that their lives mean nothing.  We pile our collective need for vengeance for all our grievances onto the killers and then execute them.  They are scapegoats in the ancient sense of the word and we are cleansed by their blood.
 
2014-01-16 05:37:11 PM  

Tricky Chicken: I favor a Hunger Games like capital punishment system.  We take a hundred or so convicts put them in a reserve wired with cameras, and the last one living gets a pardon and is released to live in Hollywood and do the talk show circuit.  The proceeds from the show could go to the families of the victims.

Or you could just jail them for life which I would think is much worse than death.


Actually, I think the 'winner' should be secretly put to death and a look-alike can do the Hollywood thing to generate the proceeds for the victims' families (and a small, secret percentage for the double).
 
2014-01-16 05:38:19 PM  

hardinparamedic: Serious Post on Serious Thread: There are way too many fark ups and injustices perpetrated by the 'justice' system. And the disparate application by race and class is a given.

Uh, the guy was white, and aside from the overwhelmingly scientifically defensible evidence of his guilt, he confessed to the crime while not under any duress. In fact, his race and class gave him a great chance of NOT getting the death penalty for his crime.

I get what you are saying, but this guy is the exception to all of your rules you just stated.


Your selective reading of my post missed the point entirely and utterly.

All practical reasons aside, execution is not a power I want vested in the state. It's the institutionalization of barbarism I object to the most. The practical stuff is just icing on the cake. Even if this was the whitest richest best defended fark ever, and even though there was even an admission, the existence of the death penalty is objectionable. And again, there is the ADDITIONAL SECONDARY issue that if the death penalty is ok in any situation, it will inevitably be used in a wrongful situation.
 
2014-01-16 05:38:47 PM  

angry bunny: There's no net benefit here that can't be achieved through more humane means. When the government executes someone it's sanctioning and in fact performing the act of killing another living breathing thinking person. I can't justify that because that person can be contained and doesn't have to ever pose a threat to any one else. You're not killing that person to make the society as whole safer, so why are you killing that person? It's vengeance and it's wrong.


Because it's vengeance and you shouldn't get to say if it is or is not wrong until you are the surviving family members of a victim.  Then, if you want to say it's wrong to kill that person, I'm all for a judge listening to your wishes.
 
2014-01-16 05:39:00 PM  

BigOle8point: To those who say its cruel and unusual  .... go eat a snickers. You act like a whiny biatch when you're hungry.
If you don't like the death penalty, too bad. If you are a man posting here and object to killing a psychopath who brutalized an 8 month pregnant woman, you are a pussy.


ok, tough guy, i'll bite.

why not make it even more cruel - like perhaps having him drawn and quartered or ripped apart by dogs? wouldn't that be more of a deterrent?* it would certainly satisfy the public's medieval urge for bloody vengeance.

or why not behead him in a public square? or why not cut off his dick and feed it to him, letting him choke to death on his genitals?wouldn't that be appropriate?

*the death penalty is not a deterrent
 
2014-01-16 05:41:24 PM  
Don't they have a bunch of heroin down in the police evidence room? Give him a hot shot and boom, you're done.

Or for that matter, sit him in a chair, sneak up behind him and shoot him in the head. Much more humane than a ritualistic medical procedure.
 
2014-01-16 05:42:14 PM  

Serious Post on Serious Thread: All practical reasons aside, execution is not a power I want vested in the state. It's the institutionalization of barbarism I object to the most. The practical stuff is just icing on the cake. Even if this was the whitest richest best defended fark ever, and even though there was even an admission, the existence of the death penalty is objectionable. And again, there is the ADDITIONAL SECONDARY issue that if the death penalty is ok in any situation, it will inevitably be used in a wrongful situation.


^ This ^
 
2014-01-16 05:42:36 PM  

for good or for awesome: I heard in Russia they told you they needed to take your picture.  Put you in a little booth and tell you to look at the "camera".  Can't get much more "humane" than that.


You know what they do in Russia?

They put you in prison.  The government of Russia doesn't murder their own citizens in cold blood.  That's right, the United States is more barbaric than Russia.

It's well past time to end murder by the state forever.
 
2014-01-16 05:44:49 PM  

Solid Muldoon: Don't they have a bunch of heroin down in the police evidence room? Give him a hot shot and boom, you're done.


That's basically what they did.  Hydromorphone & heroin are both opiates -- variants on the same underlying molecule.

Hydromorphone:
upload.wikimedia.org

Heroin:
upload.wikimedia.org

Only the two substituent groups at left are different.
 
2014-01-16 05:46:09 PM  

SuperNinjaToad: for good or for awesome: I heard in Russia they told you they needed to take your picture.  Put you in a little booth and tell you to look at the "camera".  Can't get much more "humane" than that.

which if fine and dandy if you're the first guy and totally unaware but somehow if what you say is true and therefore common knowledge, I wouldn't exactly call it a comforting thought when the prison guards comes by and tell me it's picture day for me.


Who's going to make it common knowledge?

The guy who just 'had his picture taken' ain't talkin'...
 
2014-01-16 05:47:26 PM  

lennavan: angry bunny: There's no net benefit here that can't be achieved through more humane means. When the government executes someone it's sanctioning and in fact performing the act of killing another living breathing thinking person. I can't justify that because that person can be contained and doesn't have to ever pose a threat to any one else. You're not killing that person to make the society as whole safer, so why are you killing that person? It's vengeance and it's wrong.

Because it's vengeance and you shouldn't get to say if it is or is not wrong until you are the surviving family members of a victim.  Then, if you want to say it's wrong to kill that person, I'm all for a judge listening to your wishes.



Of course in all other crimes we also have the victims/families set the punishment...  Oh wait that never freaking happens!  I do get to say because whether it's wrong or not because I'm a part of that society.  When society kills someone whether I agree or not I'm in a way part of that action that gives me every right to comment.  The fact of the matter is we specifically don't have victims or their families choose the punishment because they are directly impacted by the crime.
 
2014-01-16 05:49:26 PM  

Mirandized: Joe Blowme: Dog Welder: "And more importantly, the people of the state of Ohio should be appalled at what was done here today in their names."

As a resident of Ohio, I'm more appalled at what this jerk did to warrant the death penalty.

THIS times eleventy billion

I don't understand this at all. You are not responsible for what this piece of shiat did. You are responsible for what the State does in your name. He acted as a monster so the State in our name should also act as a monster? That lowers us to his level. I want my government to be better than this piece of shiat.


Fark this shiat about 'lowering to a level' - this is about delivering that which is deserved.

The criminal made a choice to do the crime in the method used to do it. Let it be that same choice that delivers the punishment. No 'lowering' required.
 
2014-01-16 05:49:32 PM  

DarkVader: You know what they do in Russia? [blah blah blah blah]


Nations that don't execute killers show a profound lack of respect for the value of the lives of the victims... the law-abiding citizens. Failing to execute killers is uncivilized.
 
2014-01-16 05:49:33 PM  
2.bp.blogspot.com
Once shot a man for snoring too loud....
 
2014-01-16 05:52:27 PM  

FlashHarry: it would certainly satisfy the public's medieval urge for bloody vengeance.


You say that like there is something wrong with vengeance.  There is nothing wrong with vengeance.  It is pure and natural.  Children less than 2 years old understand vengeance.  It is more natural than talking.
 
2014-01-16 05:53:00 PM  

DarkVader: They put you in prison. The government of Russia doesn't murder their own citizens in cold blood. That's right, the United States is more barbaric than Russia.

It's well past time to end murder by the state forever.


You sound liberal.

How about you start by disarming the state first. Then, and only then, will you have a rationalization for ending "murder by the state".

If you can't end the slaughter wholesale, why worry about singular cases?
 
2014-01-16 05:54:12 PM  

FlashHarry: BigOle8point: To those who say its cruel and unusual  .... go eat a snickers. You act like a whiny biatch when you're hungry.
If you don't like the death penalty, too bad. If you are a man posting here and object to killing a psychopath who brutalized an 8 month pregnant woman, you are a pussy.

ok, tough guy, i'll bite.

why not make it even more cruel - like perhaps having him drawn and quartered or ripped apart by dogs? wouldn't that be more of a deterrent?* it would certainly satisfy the public's medieval urge for bloody vengeance.

or why not behead him in a public square? or why not cut off his dick and feed it to him, letting him choke to death on his genitals?wouldn't that be appropriate?


Whatever floats your boat. I'm OK with the current method, but always open for suggestions.
 
2014-01-16 05:54:27 PM  
if you want vengeance, you need to take it, don't pass off your responsibilities to some government.

state execution is not vengeance, it's murder by bureaucracy.
 
2014-01-16 05:54:46 PM  
BigOle8point: To those who say its cruel and unusual .... go eat a snickers. You act like a whiny biatch when you're hungry.
If you don't like the death penalty, too bad. If you are a man posting here and object to killing a psychopath who brutalized an 8 month pregnant woman, you are a pussy.


Is pussy the work we use for civilized now?  You are what you eat I guess.
 
2014-01-16 05:56:01 PM  
To those saying, 'good, he was an evil murderer' - the point of all this isn't really whether his suffering was 'just' but what killing him makes of us - if you are going to have a death penalty then either it should be done clinically without point, more like pest control. If we start getting lax and saying, 'well, 15 minutes of chemically induced weatherboarding to death isn't so bad' then we take a step closer to being like the pitiless a55hole who was just executed. We shouldn't be complacent and let that happen to ourselves.
 
2014-01-16 05:56:12 PM  
I have zero problem with this.

Would gladly participate in a firing squad.
 
2014-01-16 05:56:46 PM  

angry bunny: Of course in all other crimes we also have the victims/families set the punishment... Oh wait that never freaking happens!


Well if by never freaking happens you mean happens all the goddamn time, then sure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_impact_statement
 
2014-01-16 05:57:58 PM  

TheWhoppah: hardinparamedic: [...] The purpose of the death penalty is to remove someone who's actions, beyond a reasonable doubt, are so heinous that society can no longer tolerate their existence. Nothing more, nothing less.

Bzzzt.  Wrong.  That is one reason but it is not the only reason.  Another is to exhibit our disgust with killers.  To show that they are subhuman and that their lives mean nothing.  We pile our collective need for vengeance for all our grievances onto the killers and then execute them.  They are scapegoats in the ancient sense of the word and we are cleansed by their blood.


I see my sociopath tag for you is well founded.

Or you fail miserably at Poe's law, and you're trying too hard.
 
2014-01-16 05:57:59 PM  

Kit Fister: The system decides the punishment. If the victim has no issues with the punishment, there is no problem. If the victim takes umbrage with the punishment, let the judge review the punishment. Otherwise, no issues, carry it out after due appeals and reviews.


That's not how it works. Aside from letting the victim plead for leniency or harshness against his victimizer - which has only so much weight as any individual judge with optional sentencing cares to personally grant it - the victim's feelings on the punishment are immaterial because that's not how justice works.

The retribution of the law is not and should not be meted out based on the personal feelings of the victim. If you want that sort of bullshiat move to a country of underdeveloped barbarians where they still do that sort of thing. There are still a few around, sadly.
 
2014-01-16 05:58:34 PM  

mungo: To those saying, 'good, he was an evil murderer' - the point of all this isn't really whether his suffering was 'just' but what killing him makes of us - if you are going to have a death penalty then either it should be done clinically without point, more like pest control. If we start getting lax and saying, 'well, 15 minutes of chemically induced weatherboarding to death isn't so bad' then we take a step closer to being like the pitiless a55hole who was just executed. We shouldn't be complacent and let that happen to ourselves.


What if this guy passed out right away, had no farking clue what was going on, it wasn't bad at all for him and it took 15 minutes to be considered clinically dead but a liberal website against the death penalty decided to pick the story up and make it sound super bad.  Would it be alright if I saw right through the BS and said I didn't care?
 
2014-01-16 05:59:42 PM  

Serious Post on Serious Thread: All practical reasons aside, execution is not a power I want vested in the state. It's the institutionalization of barbarism I object to the most. The practical stuff is just icing on the cake. Even if this was the whitest richest best defended fark ever, and even though there was even an admission, the existence of the death penalty is objectionable. And again, there is the ADDITIONAL SECONDARY issue that if the death penalty is ok in any situation, it will inevitably be used in a wrongful situation.


No, I granted that you were entitled to your personal opinion on the matter.

I just happen not to agree or share your opinion beyond the need for serious and honest reform.
 
2014-01-16 05:59:56 PM  

theBigBigEye: Dr Jack Badofsky: TheShavingofOccam123: QFTA:

A federal judge sided with the state but acknowledged the new method was an experiment.

Please have this judge removed from the bench. This is an idiot. A cruel, nasty idiot.

I dunno.  Depends on who they were experimenting on.  Was it a worst-of-the-worst pedophile?  Par for the course.  Went on a serial-killing spree?  Welcome to the "Serial Killer Victim Experience".  Kidnapped / tortured / raped people?  My sympathy meter just broke Trying to register lower than it was able to.  Not feeling very sorry at all for people on death row, especially when the evidence is overwhelmingly proof that they indeed were heinous individuals.  Ted Bundy, for example.  Don't let his looks and charisma fool you.  That's an unrepentant, cold, sadistic, devious person.  Not fixable, and not worth the oxygen he breathed.

Please have this judge kept on his bench forever. We need people like him (along with the repeal of the Eighth Amendment).

And anyone with a criminal record should be put to death, no matter how minor it is. Any kind of blemished, imperfect record should = DIEDIEDIEDIEDIE!!!!


Hey, look at you!  You're pretty good at being a drama queen.  You go, girl!  Because what I said above clearly states "anybody committing ANY crime should die", and I can totally see how you interpreted it that way.  Wow.

You need to get out more.
 
2014-01-16 06:01:00 PM  

angry bunny: Of course in all other crimes we also have the victims/families set the punishment... Oh wait that never freaking happens! I do get to say because whether it's wrong or not because I'm a part of that society.


Okay, well you're right and society has decided capital punishment is okay.  Your concern is noted, thanks.
 
2014-01-16 06:01:01 PM  

mungo: To those saying, 'good, he was an evil murderer' - the point of all this isn't really whether his suffering was 'just' but what killing him makes of us - if you are going to have a death penalty then either it should be done clinically without point, more like pest control. If we start getting lax and saying, 'well, 15 minutes of chemically induced weatherboarding to death isn't so bad' then we take a step closer to being like the pitiless a55hole who was just executed. We shouldn't be complacent and let that happen to ourselves.


But your post IS a good idea that you don't have a clue what the hell you're talking about, and your opinion on the objection you raised is based on ignorance about the topic at hand.
 
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