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(Huffington Post)   Drug companies won't let you use their products to execute people anymore, do you C) mix up your own brew and hope it doesn't leave people gasping and choking for 15 minutes before they die   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 615
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9553 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Jan 2014 at 2:59 PM (28 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-16 04:50:26 PM

McFifenstein: He was from Ohio, he probably wanted to die anyways.
I know I would if I lived in Ohio.


31.media.tumblr.com

/oblig.

Also interesting that about every 50 miles or so, there's a sign in Kansas that says "home of astronaut so-and-so."
 
2014-01-16 04:51:26 PM

Kit Fister: Coder: A lot of people in this thread mistakenly think we want them to have compassion for this guy. Not at all. We want you to have an ethics system more robust than "Do I feel compassion for this guy?"

My ethics system boils down to:

Is he a nice guy? Yes/no
Is his condition the result of his own actions? yes/no
Was he capable of understanding the consequences of his own actions? yes/no
Is he legitimately sorry for what he did? Yes/no
Will he do it again? Yes/no
Does his existence pose a threat to others? Yes/no


Beyond that, I see death as simply a form of cold storage. I don't promote death as a means of revenge, but simply as a means of permanently removing the person from the gene pool and freeing up a cell, guards, and resources for others.


I find it interesting that you missed the most important and probably should be the first thought:

did he commit the crime: yes/no
 
2014-01-16 04:53:31 PM

Joe Blowme: Mirandized: Joe Blowme: Dog Welder: "And more importantly, the people of the state of Ohio should be appalled at what was done here today in their names."

As a resident of Ohio, I'm more appalled at what this jerk did to warrant the death penalty.

THIS times eleventy billion

I don't understand this at all. You are not responsible for what this piece of shiat did. You are responsible for what the State does in your name. He acted as a monster so the State in our name should also act as a monster? That lowers us to his level. I want my government to be better than this piece of shiat.

Like abortion? Better like that? At least this guy was guilty (DNA), unlike the unborn


Sorry, I didn't realize you were trolling.
 
2014-01-16 04:54:22 PM

jshine: Kit Fister: Beyond that, I see death as simply a form of cold storage. I don't promote death as a means of revenge, but simply as a means of permanently removing the person from the gene pool and freeing up a cell, guards, and resources for others.


"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."
-- J.R.R. Tolkien


He admitted to killing her.
 
2014-01-16 04:55:07 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: Kit Fister: Coder: A lot of people in this thread mistakenly think we want them to have compassion for this guy. Not at all. We want you to have an ethics system more robust than "Do I feel compassion for this guy?"

My ethics system boils down to:

Is he a nice guy? Yes/no
Is his condition the result of his own actions? yes/no
Was he capable of understanding the consequences of his own actions? yes/no
Is he legitimately sorry for what he did? Yes/no
Will he do it again? Yes/no
Does his existence pose a threat to others? Yes/no


Beyond that, I see death as simply a form of cold storage. I don't promote death as a means of revenge, but simply as a means of permanently removing the person from the gene pool and freeing up a cell, guards, and resources for others.

I find it interesting that you missed the most important and probably should be the first thought:

did he commit the crime: yes/no


He admitted to killing her.
 
2014-01-16 04:55:17 PM

dameron: BigOle8point: [img.fark.net image 205x246]

To those who say its cruel and unusual  .... go eat a snickers. You act like a whiny biatch when you're hungry.
If you don't like the death penalty, too bad. If you are a man posting here and object to killing a psychopath who brutalized an 8 month pregnant woman, you are a pussy.

From your own bio:

The Fark comments section used to be the hands down best on the web. Current state is people being dicks to each other. I hate you all for ruining what was once a very witty, very funny comments section.

I see you've changed your mind.


Nope. I still hate everyone.
 
2014-01-16 04:56:03 PM

jshine: Kit Fister: Beyond that, I see death as simply a form of cold storage. I don't promote death as a means of revenge, but simply as a means of permanently removing the person from the gene pool and freeing up a cell, guards, and resources for others.


"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."
-- J.R.R. Tolkien


Yeah?  Why didn't they just fly the ring to Mount Doom with the f*cking giant eagles?

So much for clever J.R.R. Tolkien.
 
2014-01-16 04:56:08 PM

i478.photobucket.com

 
2014-01-16 04:57:07 PM

HindiDiscoMonster: Kit Fister: Coder: A lot of people in this thread mistakenly think we want them to have compassion for this guy. Not at all. We want you to have an ethics system more robust than "Do I feel compassion for this guy?"

My ethics system boils down to:

Is he a nice guy? Yes/no
Is his condition the result of his own actions? yes/no
Was he capable of understanding the consequences of his own actions? yes/no
Is he legitimately sorry for what he did? Yes/no
Will he do it again? Yes/no
Does his existence pose a threat to others? Yes/no


Beyond that, I see death as simply a form of cold storage. I don't promote death as a means of revenge, but simply as a means of permanently removing the person from the gene pool and freeing up a cell, guards, and resources for others.

I find it interesting that you missed the most important and probably should be the first thought:

did he commit the crime: yes/no


If one is assuming the same ethical code for all walks of life, that is a precursor question to the ones posed above.
 
2014-01-16 04:57:58 PM
Just go back to the firing squad, no prolonged pain and suffering (if you aim right).
 
2014-01-16 05:00:17 PM
anesthetized people gasp and agonal breathing when they are over sedated, and about to become apneic. Awareness and consciousness have nothing to do with these primitive responses. This guy was in a deeply unconscious state, which would put regular sleep to shame.

None of this makes institutionalized killing any less distasteful and barbaric.
 
2014-01-16 05:00:23 PM

Coder: And I largely agree with you. But killing them is enough. Put them to death quick, clean, painless. No justice system worth its name inflicts unnecessary suffering to satiate blood-lust.


oh I agree. There's no reason to torture a person if your intent is to simply remove them. A quick, clean kill. No reason to draw it out, except for Kiddie rapers.  Blood eagle them and hang their bodies on pikes outside the jail as a warning to others,
 
2014-01-16 05:00:33 PM

lennavan: That is an amazingly "squishy" case, I agree. Midazolam is used to put you to sleep for surgery and hydromorphone is a morphine derivative, widely used pain relief drug. You can't ask a fetus "can you feel this" or "are you awake." But you can ask millions of different adult surgery patients over years and years of usage whether or not they can feel pain before/after hydromorphone.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't TFA say that they used different concentrations for this cocktail than are used in hospitals? If that's the case, while interviews with patients who've taken the same drugs might be informative, until we have someone experience the cocktail (at close to those concentrations/dosages) for themselves and report back, we'll have to use auxiliary methods to figure out what is "felt" during the execution.

But generally speaking, we want executions to be as quick and painless as possible. We don't execute criminals to sate peoples' bloodlust.

// and there is something exceedingly perverse, IMO, about a state "winging it" at an execution, or fighting just as hard as they can to kill people in untested ways
 
2014-01-16 05:02:01 PM

Mr.Hawk: [i478.photobucket.com image 500x318]


To be fair, that technique was used to extract confessions, so they could justly execute you. Sure, you might die from it, but that's incidental.
 
2014-01-16 05:02:44 PM
probably already been said...

but who gives a crap if he died in pain, choking, and afraid....

how did his victim die? After being brutally raped, do you think she just fell asleep and went peacefully? I don't have the details, but the man raped and killed a woman, and then got to sit around getting free food, heat, healtcare for 20 years.

Executions could quite literally be free if we just used the old method of hanging. Quick/easy/painless/cheap, what the hell else do you want?

I hope he suffered a ton -- just like what he did to his victim
 
2014-01-16 05:03:20 PM

Lem Motlow: jshine: Kit Fister: Beyond that, I see death as simply a form of cold storage. I don't promote death as a means of revenge, but simply as a means of permanently removing the person from the gene pool and freeing up a cell, guards, and resources for others.

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."
-- J.R.R. Tolkien

He admitted to killing her.



It's a statement of general principle regarding the death penalty, not about this case in particular.

/ though even with a confession, certainty isn't 100% -- there have been plenty of false confessions, both voluntary and coerced
 
2014-01-16 05:03:23 PM

Coder: never trust a bunny: I'm astonishedoso many people in this thread are whining about sympathy for this guy. Most are saying kill him humanly but by all means kill him. I don't really see that as sympathy. For the record I vote guillotine.

A lot of people in this thread mistakenly think we want them to have compassion for this guy. Not at all. We want you to have an ethics system more robust than "Do I feel compassion for this guy?"


Pretty much yeah. I don't feel sorry for him one little bit. I just don't see how torturing anybody can be considered acceptable. What worries me is what it says about us as a society. This guy deserved to die. That's that the issue in my mind.
 
2014-01-16 05:05:28 PM

dittybopper: So why don't we just overdose them with morphine?  We know it works, and we know it's painless, and it's less messy than my idea of using explosive lenses to implode the heads of criminals like the pit of an atomic bomb, which, btw, is quite humane, because the explosive shockwave is faster than nerve conduction speed, so it's like instantly turning off a light.  They'd never even know when the end happens, because they'd be dead before the sensations could reach their brains.


Largely because of the following reasons:

a) A lot (a LOT) of pharmaceutical companies are based overseas in jurisidictions that have signed laws against selling anything to be used for purposes of capital punishment (basically the reason we don't use morphine is the same reason we stopped using the propofol/paralytic two-step)

b) A LOT of those same pharmaceutical companies have stated outright that they will not sell ANY product to the US if the stuff is at risk of being used for capital punishment even via diversion (which is why they had to stop using propofol and are now using Versed in the homebrew cocktail--there was a real risk that NO company would sell propofol to the US due to its use in capital punishment, and at least Versed is technically in generic status).

c) Pretty much all the drugs commonly used for executions (both now and in past in the US) have been "dual-use" drugs that are used in surgery in humans.  Pretty much anything we can use to execute humans without it ending up in a literal Supreme Court case...ends up in the same problem.

And now I'm just waiting for companies to say they aren't going to sell Versed (or its generic version) unless they stop use in capital punishment.  I also expect this particular form of chucklefarkery will continue up to the point where there are entire states which can no longer use humane methods of euthanising animals because the local DoC decided to start using Fatal Plus on their death-row inmates to avoid putting human drugs at risk of not being available during surgery.

As for answers...the easiest answer is to really avoid anything "dual use" altogether, but the one major method of executing humans chemically (not using pharmaceuticals usually meant for surgery) has tended to be frowned upon for some time (legally in the US since the 80s, and in general since its invention by a group of folks in Europe back in the 40s for crimes against humanity); I really don't see the gas chamber coming back.

There's also the option of not using chemical means (in the traditional sense) of execution, instead using more tried-and-true physics-based methods of execution....decapitation, basilar skull fracture (by being dropped in a manner that ensures a clean basilar skull fracture and snappage of the brain stem), or firearms.  These tend to bring the reality of death a bit closer, however, and do require some amount of skill to do properly.  The same people who tend to be squeamish re gas executions and the use of electricity as a Thomas Edison-tested method of sure execution also tend to be squeamish about these methods, though...

(Note that I don't mention bringing back the chair--that's pretty much out for the same reason gas is out--nor do I mention doing away with capital punishment save in cases of treason (which--knowing some parts of the US--I think will probably happen about the time the NHL announces the Winter Classic is to be played in downtown Hades due to the latter being about as cold as Moosetits, Alberta in January).  I also think that at least in some parts of the country there might not be that much of a PROBLEM getting a proper firing squad together, to be honest.)
 
2014-01-16 05:05:39 PM
The badass sci-fi novel Legion of the Damned by William C. Dietz includes the execution of an armed robber/murderer in which he is strapped naked to a table and shot in the same exact spots his victim was. I'm ok with that.
 
2014-01-16 05:06:37 PM

jshine: The combination of an opiate (hydromorphone) + a benzodiazepine (midazolam) is pretty common for anesthesia in the hospital for minor procedures.  Anyone who's had a colonoscopy or other similar exam has probably had some combination of these drugs (fentanyl would probably be more common than hydromorphone, but midazolam would probably still be used).


Fentanyl is popular because of it's short life (30 minutes, versus four hours for hydromorphone).

Still, I'm willing to bet that the doses they gave this guy were far above and beyond what even the anesthesia or drug-facilitated intubation doses were, and into the realm of irreversable circulatory collapse/shock levels. Even when they used phenobarb, they gave beyond the LD50 amount in a single bolus dose.
 
2014-01-16 05:07:20 PM

Dimensio: EyeballKid: Running a-puck: I'm honestly a bit baffled by people who think torture is ok as long as you're just torturing bad guys.  Torture is not ok.  Ever.  No matter what.  It's TORTURE.
Kill them quickly and painlessly and move on.

I'm honestly baffled by people who think murder is OK as long as you're just murdering bad guys.

Murder is, by definition, unlawful. Therefore the legally authorized taking of human life -- even with premeditation and malice aforethought -- is not murder.


So what the Nazis did to the Jews was not murder?
 
2014-01-16 05:07:39 PM
Amazing that some people are against this shiatbag getting what he deserves.

If you don't want to die a potentially slow, painful, agonizing death then perhaps you might try a little less rapey-stabby shenanigans. Actions do have consequences, you know.

The most appalling part is that it took so long for them to finally go through with it.
 
2014-01-16 05:07:46 PM

Great Porn Dragon: a) A lot (a LOT) of pharmaceutical companies are based overseas in jurisidictions that have signed laws against selling anything to be used for purposes of capital punishment (basically the reason we don't use morphine is the same reason we stopped using the propofol/paralytic two-step)


What jurisdiction was using propofol? I know a lot of them were using phenobarbital, but propofol would be a horrible idea for an execution drug - the amount required would be insane.
 
2014-01-16 05:08:24 PM

sore_bluto: Punishment way better than the death penalty:

Supermax isolation.  23.5 hour lockdown.  Other half hour can be spent showering or shuffling in a 10'x4' dog run.  No human contact ever.  Bland food delivered by mask wearing, silent guard.  No books, TV, radio, or stimulation of any kind.  No visitors.  No pillow.  No window. Just a 2" thick foam mat, concrete, and a steel crapper/sink.  Forever.

Way cheaper than the death penalty and guaranteed to drive any person insane.  And deemed perfectly legal.  Just set it and forget it.

Yes, the lawyer can visit, but only until the appeals are exhausted, and because this would be a garden variety prison term and not an execution, the appeals process would end quickly and the bastard wouldn't enjoy death row "cause celebre" status.


Might as well send him to an asteroid with a fembot.
 
2014-01-16 05:08:25 PM

Coder: Bit'O'Gristle: And why should i give a ripe fark if this piece of shiat suffers before croaking? I don't, and ill bet the relatives of the victim dont either. I would bet, that they wish he suffered more. I'm sure his victim felt terror and pain as he raped and murdered her and her baby. This was a piece of shiat they flushed. Don't expect me to shed tears that he "gasped" and "felt fear". fark him, and fark his scumbag lawyers.

Yeah, let's build our justice system around that sentiment...


Forget it, it's derp town in Fark death penalty threads. It's apparently impossible for some people to quell their bloodlust long enough to consider the ramifications of actions throughout our justice system. Consideration beyond the thought process of "bad man dead! Good!" is too much for them.

The bad man is dead. Sorry he didn't suffer enough for some of you or the method of his death was not entertaining enough or cheap enough. I'll continue to absolutely abhor the fact we trust the government to kill people. Yes I know that means I love criminals and support what this guy did to some of you. Luckily, if you think that, you're a fool and I don't listen to the rantings of fools.

/I seriously don't get you bloodthirsty idiots...you want him to suffer? Life in jail is far worse than killing him, like much much worse. It's cheaper too because of the farking inefficiency of having the government kill people. It also removes them permanently from society which is the farking purpose of punishment in a justice system, not to satisfy bloodlust of the keyboard warriors
//oh wait I do get you, too many torture porn movies and revenge fantasies...ta da "let's torture him...blow up his head...hang him so he suffocates...unh yeah I'm almost there"
///how's that deterrent effect of the death penalty working out? Clearly worked on this guy, he was so deterred by it he killed someone
////it's totally not our base instinct for revenge motivating it at all
 
2014-01-16 05:09:55 PM

Kit Fister: Coder: And I largely agree with you. But killing them is enough. Put them to death quick, clean, painless. No justice system worth its name inflicts unnecessary suffering to satiate blood-lust.

oh I agree. There's no reason to torture a person if your intent is to simply remove them. A quick, clean kill. No reason to draw it out, except for Kiddie rapers. Blood eagle them and hang their bodies on pikes outside the jail as a warning to others,


I always thought drowning them in pus would be appropriate.
 
2014-01-16 05:10:07 PM
Good.
How long did the woman he raped and stabbed suffer? Hopefully not as long as he did.
 
2014-01-16 05:10:28 PM

aspAddict: If you don't want to die a potentially slow, painful, agonizing death then perhaps you might try a little less rapey-stabby shenanigans. Actions do have consequences, you know.


Chances are this guy just fell asleep in his own awareness. Versed also causes anterograde amnesia after administration, so he wouldn't have been aware of anything going on afterwords if they gave him the massive dose I suspect they did.

In combination with the hydromorphone in high doses, despite the unpleasant physical appearance of agonal response, (which used to be masked by a paralytic drug - which also masked if they were underdosed, which was very VERY bad.), he didn't know anything was happening to him. The lights were off and no one was home.
 
2014-01-16 05:11:55 PM

Dr Dreidel: Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't TFA say that they used different concentrations for this cocktail than are used in hospitals? If that's the case, while interviews with patients who've taken the same drugs might be informative, until we have someone experience the cocktail (at close to those concentrations/dosages) for themselves and report back, we'll have to use auxiliary methods to figure out what is "felt" during the execution.

But generally speaking, we want executions to be as quick and painless as possible. We don't execute criminals to sate peoples' bloodlust.

// and there is something exceedingly perverse, IMO, about a state "winging it" at an execution, or fighting just as hard as they can to kill people in untested ways


as someone who has spent a lot of time in ORs I can tell you that this execution method was essentially general anesthesia induction minus the breathing tube and ventilation. Basically when an anesthesiologist puts you to sleep they either give you either enough sedative drug to make you stop breathing on your own prior to intubation, or they give you enough to snow you, and then give you a paralytic agent which stops your breathing and relaxes your airway.  You will occasionally see non-paralyzed patients, gasp and agonally breath right prior to intubation. They look uncomfortable, but they are so deep they have no recollection of the event.

I guarantee you this guy were he intubated, ventilated and given narcan (essentially saved from the massive over dose he was given) he would have woken up with not the foggiest memory of discomfort.


Not endorsing institutional killing, just saying this hysteria over the method is baseless.
 
2014-01-16 05:12:04 PM

jshine: Kit Fister: Beyond that, I see death as simply a form of cold storage. I don't promote death as a means of revenge, but simply as a means of permanently removing the person from the gene pool and freeing up a cell, guards, and resources for others.


"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."
-- J.R.R. Tolkien


Said by a character who killed many people, to another whose hands did not end up clean, and acknowledging in the quote itself that sometimes it is right. The point of your quote is not that no one should ever be killed, only that it is a grave responsibility, to be exercised with the utmost care.
 
2014-01-16 05:12:14 PM

BigLuca: So what the Nazis did to the Jews was not murder?


Legal killing can be morally right or wrong.
 I'm not an absolutist.
 
2014-01-16 05:14:46 PM

js34603: Sorry he didn't suffer enough for some of you or the method of his death was not entertaining enough or cheap enough. I'll continue to absolutely abhor the fact we trust the government to kill people.


To be quite frank, in this case I'm quite OK with the death penalty being used. Not only was there overwhelming evidence of his guilt and his own confession that was NOT elicited under duress, the heinousness of the crime would indicate that there was no hope of rehabilitation for this guy.

In that case, this guy died more humanely than your loved family pet would if you took him to the vet to be put down.
 
2014-01-16 05:14:48 PM
I'm disappointed that no one finished the line from The Running Man.

/NOW: PLAIN ZERO
 
2014-01-16 05:15:02 PM

BigLuca: Dimensio: EyeballKid: Running a-puck: I'm honestly a bit baffled by people who think torture is ok as long as you're just torturing bad guys.  Torture is not ok.  Ever.  No matter what.  It's TORTURE.
Kill them quickly and painlessly and move on.

I'm honestly baffled by people who think murder is OK as long as you're just murdering bad guys.

Murder is, by definition, unlawful. Therefore the legally authorized taking of human life -- even with premeditation and malice aforethought -- is not murder.

So what the Nazis did to the Jews was not murder?


Godwinned!
 
2014-01-16 05:15:15 PM

dameron: I find it fascinating that the people who think the government has too much power and is incompetent are by and large huge supporters of the death penalty.

One day the U.S. will get over this bloodthirsty urge and join the rest of the civilized world.  Hopefully this thread will be archived somewhere so the grandchildren of certain posters in this thread can see what kind of savages they were when they were young and stupid.


Yeah. This article has really brought out the best in people. Unthinking blood lust and revenge fantasies. (I know welcometofark.jpg).

There's more to this than "killing bad people is OK". If that sick fark did that to a loved one, would I want to personally slowly torture him death? You betcha! Do I want to live in a society that would let me? Nope!

Likewise I just don't like the idea of living in a society that executes its citizens. Regardless of circumstance. Practically too much room for error. There are way too many fark ups and injustices perpetrated by the 'justice' system. And the disparate application by race and class is a given. But even if there is no doubt whatsoever about guilt, it's just condoning vicious barbarism. Do you really want to condone and institutionalize that as part of the civil society you want to be a part of?
 
2014-01-16 05:16:15 PM

Millennium: jshine: Kit Fister: Beyond that, I see death as simply a form of cold storage. I don't promote death as a means of revenge, but simply as a means of permanently removing the person from the gene pool and freeing up a cell, guards, and resources for others.


"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."
-- J.R.R. Tolkien

Said by a character who killed many people, to another whose hands did not end up clean, and acknowledging in the quote itself that sometimes it is right. The point of your quote is not that no one should ever be killed, only that it is a grave responsibility, to be exercised with the utmost care.


Orcs aren't people.

*this message brought to you by the Elven Racial Purity League and the Pervy Hobbit Fancier's Guild
 
2014-01-16 05:16:32 PM
"As one whose husband and mother-in-law have both died the victims of murder assassination, I stand firmly and unequivocally opposed to the death penalty for those convicted of capital offenses. An evil deed is not redeemed by an evil deed of retaliation. Justice is never advanced in the taking of a human life. Morality is never upheld by legalized murder."

-- Coretta Scott King

I realize this guy was a POS, but the death penalty really is wrong. It's not cheaper than life in prison, and it doesn't bring the victim back to life, so really, what's the point.
 
2014-01-16 05:16:46 PM

BigLuca: So what the Nazis did to the Jews was not murder?


fc06.deviantart.net.

That was stupid, and you should feel bad for posting it.
 
2014-01-16 05:16:51 PM

BigOle8point: [img.fark.net image 205x246]

To those who say its cruel and unusual  .... go eat a snickers. You act like a whiny biatch when you're hungry.
If you don't like the death penalty, too bad. If you are a man posting here and object to killing a psychopath who brutalized an 8 month pregnant woman, you are a pussy.


This is in your bio:

The Fark comments section used to be the hands down best on the web. Current state is people being dicks to each other. I hate you all for ruining what was once a very witty, very funny comments section.


Just sayin...
 
2014-01-16 05:16:54 PM

Millennium: jshine: Kit Fister: Beyond that, I see death as simply a form of cold storage. I don't promote death as a means of revenge, but simply as a means of permanently removing the person from the gene pool and freeing up a cell, guards, and resources for others.


"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."
-- J.R.R. Tolkien

Said by a character who killed many people, to another whose hands did not end up clean, and acknowledging in the quote itself that sometimes it is right. The point of your quote is not that no one should ever be killed, only that it is a grave responsibility, to be exercised with the utmost care.



The point is that it's irreversible & shouldn't be employed unless there's 100% certainty that you've actually got the right guy.  In some cases, that may actually be possible (i.e., there might exist video of the guy committing the crime), but no legal system can guarantee that level of certainty in general.

Yes, in war or in self defense, situations can arise where you need to kill to prevent an obvious, immediate danger to your own life or the lives of others (probably what you're referring to), but that's not the case where punishment for past crimes is concerned.
 
2014-01-16 05:17:02 PM
Dog Welder


"And more importantly, the people of the state of Ohio should be appalled at what was done here today in their names."

As a resident of Ohio, I'm more appalled at what this jerk did to warrant the death penalty.

Any sane person is appalled. That doesn't mean you repeat his actions.
There is zero justification for killing a person who has been subdued and is not a threat. None.
 
2014-01-16 05:18:36 PM

hardinparamedic: Great Porn Dragon: a) A lot (a LOT) of pharmaceutical companies are based overseas in jurisidictions that have signed laws against selling anything to be used for purposes of capital punishment (basically the reason we don't use morphine is the same reason we stopped using the propofol/paralytic two-step)

What jurisdiction was using propofol? I know a lot of them were using phenobarbital, but propofol would be a horrible idea for an execution drug - the amount required would be insane.


Just enough propofol to induce unconsciousness, then succinylcholine to paralyze.

/As you know, same combo used routinely in anesthesia induction.  They just skip that important "stick a tube in the trachea and turn on the ventilator" step.
 
2014-01-16 05:19:13 PM

Dr Jack Badofsky: TheShavingofOccam123: QFTA:

A federal judge sided with the state but acknowledged the new method was an experiment.

Please have this judge removed from the bench. This is an idiot. A cruel, nasty idiot.

I dunno.  Depends on who they were experimenting on.  Was it a worst-of-the-worst pedophile?  Par for the course.  Went on a serial-killing spree?  Welcome to the "Serial Killer Victim Experience".  Kidnapped / tortured / raped people?  My sympathy meter just broke Trying to register lower than it was able to.  Not feeling very sorry at all for people on death row, especially when the evidence is overwhelmingly proof that they indeed were heinous individuals.  Ted Bundy, for example.  Don't let his looks and charisma fool you.  That's an unrepentant, cold, sadistic, devious person.  Not fixable, and not worth the oxygen he breathed.


Please have this judge kept on his bench forever. We need people like him (along with the repeal of the Eighth Amendment).

And anyone with a criminal record should be put to death, no matter how minor it is. Any kind of blemished, imperfect record should = DIEDIEDIEDIEDIE!!!!
 
2014-01-16 05:19:30 PM

Serious Post on Serious Thread: There are way too many fark ups and injustices perpetrated by the 'justice' system. And the disparate application by race and class is a given.


Uh, the guy was white, and aside from the overwhelmingly scientifically defensible evidence of his guilt, he confessed to the crime while not under any duress. In fact, his race and class gave him a great chance of NOT getting the death penalty for his crime.

I get what you are saying, but this guy is the exception to all of your rules you just stated.
 
2014-01-16 05:19:56 PM

Yellow Beard: I find it fascinating that the people who are staunch anti-death penalty types are by and large huge supporters of abortion. I wonder what those future generations will think of that.


I find it fascinating that the people who support the death penalty by and large are anti-abortion with the justification that, "all life is sacred"
 
2014-01-16 05:20:27 PM
Punishment as deterrent simply doesn't work, anybody who's been spanked for stealing a cookie from the jar knows this.      The fact that there are still thefts in saudi arabia where such will get your hand chopped off, or rapes which will get your pecker chopped off prove this.

This then, leaves but 2 reasons for the death penalty,  punishment of the guilty and the enjoyment of those watching/performing the punishment.   Consider the witch trials of the past where the gruesome "tests" where the innocent were expected to die,

This was common knowledge, as was the fact that many people were accusing someone of being a witch purely because the accusation alone meant the person would die.  Yet still the trials went on.

This not a good enough defense,  let me close with a passage from my favorite book

"Many that live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them?  Do not be so quick to pass out death in judgement, for even the very wise cannot see all ends."
 
2014-01-16 05:21:00 PM

hardinparamedic: propofol would be a horrible idea for an execution drug - the amount required would be insane.


One would need to administer it in Jacksonian-quantities!
 
2014-01-16 05:21:07 PM

js34603: /I seriously don't get you bloodthirsty idiots


If it makes you feel better, I don't understand why you sympathize, defend and befriend murdering rapists.
 
2014-01-16 05:21:09 PM

jshine: The point is that it's irreversible & shouldn't be employed unless there's 100% certainty that you've actually got the right guy.


Which is impossible, yet that impossibility does not obviate the need to have this option. So you do the best you can, which I don't think we quite are: see my post above where I advocate capping the maximum sentence as short of death unless hard evidence with forensic verification can be produced.

This is enough. It has to be.
 
2014-01-16 05:21:11 PM

Banned on the Run: hardinparamedic: Great Porn Dragon: a) A lot (a LOT) of pharmaceutical companies are based overseas in jurisidictions that have signed laws against selling anything to be used for purposes of capital punishment (basically the reason we don't use morphine is the same reason we stopped using the propofol/paralytic two-step)

What jurisdiction was using propofol? I know a lot of them were using phenobarbital, but propofol would be a horrible idea for an execution drug - the amount required would be insane.

Just enough propofol to induce unconsciousness, then succinylcholine to paralyze.

/As you know, same combo used routinely in anesthesia induction.  They just skip that important "stick a tube in the trachea and turn on the ventilator" step.


midaz + (insert whatever opioid) is also used pretty routinely. paralytics have been used in the past and lawyers have successfully argued that the feeling of being paralyzed and unable to indicate your pain i.e. being locked in is cruel and unusual, so states have shied away from using them

(see my above comment)
 
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