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(Today I Found Out)   Scientists have been sitting around for decades trying to answer the compelling question of what happens when you freeze water and don't allow it to expand. Finally, there is an answer   (todayifoundout.com) divider line 90
    More: Strange, scientists, containers, hydrochloric acid  
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8739 clicks; posted to Geek » on 16 Jan 2014 at 12:31 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-16 08:39:01 AM  

DrBenway: TwistedIvory: The majority of ice's final forms were discovered in part by a group of researchers in the Chemistry department of Oxford University who were able to create Ice XII, XIV and XV for the first time.

Vonnegut beat you to it.

Ice 14? Huh.


Error. Ice IX. I need to brush up on my Roman numerals apparently.
 
2014-01-16 08:44:44 AM  

dragonchild: For fiction writing research I GIS-ed for various forms of ice and got. . . stock photos of hexagonal ice.

I understand the more exotic ones are difficult to create in quantity, but all I'm really interested in is the "hot ice" (Ice VII or Ice X) that would form if, say, Earth's oceans were hundreds of miles deep instead of just a few.  The crystalline structure would be different so it may have a different appearance, but I lack the knowledge to determine how.



Ice VII:

image.yaymicro.com
 
2014-01-16 08:46:55 AM  

dragonchild: You're talking about removing the pressure that was keeping the ice stable; if you suddenly removed that the ice would disintegrate in a violent explosion.


This.  Similar to how water boiling at different altitudes(ie pressures) does so at different temperatures.(at at different levels of heat rather)

The less pressure(in a short time frame), the more explosive the action.
 
2014-01-16 08:51:53 AM  

Eddie Adams from Torrance: So if you create Ice II , or III or eleventy at high pressure and low temperature, does it change back to regular ice when you relieve the pressure or does the structure remain?


WIkipedia says, "With care all these phases except ice X can be recovered at ambient pressure and low temperature."
 
2014-01-16 09:10:37 AM  

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: Ice VII:


You know, or is that a stock photo tagged to an article about exotic ice?
 
2014-01-16 09:31:01 AM  
i406.photobucket.com
 
2014-01-16 09:35:22 AM  
Well, now I'm all curious about these different phases of ice. Do they float differently? If you mix something into them before freezing, how will that change their unique properties? Etc, etc.
 
2014-01-16 09:37:17 AM  

Smoking GNU: uttertosh: Lith: "It is theorized that at pressures somewhere between 1.55-5.62 terapascals ice will become metallic."

I knew it, ice bullets are real!

yeah, at the centre of the sun - have you any idea how many zeroes in a terapascal?!?

Wouldn't anything at that kind of pressure heat up enormously? That's partly the reason the stun stays explody and planet cores stay hot (like earths, i mean) isn't it? How would it *Stay* ice, then?


It's pretty easy to keep something at -196 C in a normal chemistry lab and even -269 C is relatively easy with the right equipment.  You just need plenty of coolant.  Using ultra high tech equipment -273 C is feasible (~0.15K)

/liquid nitrogen is -196, and liquid helium is -269
 
2014-01-16 09:49:15 AM  

cgraves67: Do they float differently?


If the density exceeds 1g/cc, it won't float at all.  Since most of these are made under high pressures, I'd expect that to be the case.
 
2014-01-16 10:21:58 AM  
Last portion of the asininely verbose article:

"So, to answer the initial question, if you froze water inside a container so strong it couldn't turn into ice, it would still turn into ice, just a slightly different type of ice in terms of scientific classification and its internal structure. Science! "

FFFUUUUUUUUUUUU
 
2014-01-16 10:23:18 AM  

TwistedIvory: The majority of ice's final forms were discovered in part by a group of researchers in the Chemistry department of Oxford University who were able to create Ice XII, XIV and XV for the first time.

Vonnegut beat you to it.


Really? Vonnegut actually made the physical substances and didn't just write stories about their speculated properties? I did not know that. Where was this work published?
 
2014-01-16 10:26:26 AM  
What happens? Stupid-ass boutique "ice" that raises the price of a cocktail by 150% or more, that's what happens. Then the idiot drink snobs who would soil themselves at the idea of drinking plain whiskey write reams of crap about how it "improves the mouthfeel" of their silly little cocktails that all boil down to "vodka and fruity stuff" or "yet another version of a Manhattan or old-fashioned".
 
2014-01-16 10:30:27 AM  
Thanks, I enjoyed the article; I didn't know about the other forms of ice.

With this kind of "force" exhibited by normal ice I won't feel quite as angry the next time it bursts a chinese food container in my freezer.  (They are still the best storage containers ever.)
 
2014-01-16 10:39:42 AM  

dragonchild: cgraves67: Do they float differently?

If the density exceeds 1g/cc, it won't float at all.  Since most of these are made under high pressures, I'd expect that to be the case.


Yeah based on this article (linked within TFA), and this chart
www1.lsbu.ac.uk
It appears that ice Ih ("normal" hexagonal ice that we're all familiar with) is the only phase that's less dense than water.
 
2014-01-16 10:42:18 AM  

HumbertoEcho: Is no one concerned about one of the most dangerous chemicals ever?  Think of the children!

http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html


Holy crap! Why has our government not done anything to stop the use of this dangerous chemical? I will be writing my Congressman immediately and notifying all of my Facebook friends.
 
2014-01-16 11:08:21 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2014-01-16 11:21:03 AM  

Notabunny: Ever since high school chemistry, I've been teased because I thought water was pretty interesting. This article won't help.


Isn't it in a rare group because it expands both when it turns solid AND when it turns gaseous?
 
2014-01-16 11:23:14 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Gosling: Marcus Aurelius: They made Ice-Nine, you fools.  Everybody cash in your 401(k)s.

That's not even its final form.

This is its final form:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 200x214]

Change anything about it and life ceases to exist.


Looks alot like this.

4vector.com
 
2014-01-16 11:23:31 AM  

Far Cough: With this kind of "force" exhibited by normal ice I won't feel quite as angry the next time it bursts a chinese food container in my freezer.

 There's a reason why spring is known as "pothole season" around here.  Water seeps into asphalt and concrete during the winter months and when it freezes it chews up the rock like a diamond-toothed monster.

I remember when I was living in Ohio, they'd just spent a big chunk of the '08 stimulus money re-paving the highways.  Unfortunately that was followed by a particularly nasty winter in that the temperature oscillated between 40 and 20 degrees F on a daily basis.  Snow would fall, melt into water, then freeze.  By March all those renovated highways looked ten years old.  The highways that were ten years old were basically rubble.

The expansion of freezing water is no joke.
 
2014-01-16 11:40:13 AM  
I recall reading articles that said US road crew companies are basically morons, and that European countries are able to create far more forgiving and durable road surfaces despite bad winter weather and the cold/thaw cycles.

However I am too lazy to search up any links at the moment.
 
2014-01-16 11:45:26 AM  
www.suck.uk.com
 
2014-01-16 11:45:44 AM  

dragonchild: Depends on how strong the bonds are.  Diamond is formed at high pressure, but at 1atm those rocks do just fine because the bonds are very strong.  Considering how hard ice can get, I'd guess -- guessing, mind you, I'm not a chemist -- that most forms of ice are relatively stable.  Watching them melt/sublimate might be interesting, though -- the ice might fizzle and steam like dry ice dipped in water.


Only conventional (Hexagonal) ice can ever sublimate, for what it's worth.
 
2014-01-16 11:46:54 AM  

static.guim.co.uk

A suspicious-looking character with some fatherly advice for Justin Bieber

Could it be . . .?

Nah, that's just crazy.

 
2014-01-16 11:55:46 AM  

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: So...you're saying there was a problem, and yo, they solved it?


That's actually playing right now on the speakers here at work... LOL
 
2014-01-16 12:04:03 PM  

Mikey1969: Monkeyfark Ridiculous: So...you're saying there was a problem, and yo, they solved it?

That's actually playing right now on the speakers here at work... LOL


You should consider finding a new job.
 
2014-01-16 12:06:12 PM  
I wonder if you could keep some of these exotic ices stable by simultaneously reducing pressure and decreasing temperature.

How long would they take to melt?

Could you decrease pressure slowly enough to prevent them exploding, but not so slowly as to destabilize them?

Is there anything strong enough but transparent that would allow you to see them?

They (ices) raise many questions.

Presumably they could also raise a rocket a considerable distance without having to burn them, not unlike a dry ice rocket.

Water is strange stuff. If it didn't expand as it froze, there might be no life on Earth as ice could form at the bottom of the ocean and thus freeze the world from the bottom up. Also, it is a solvent of a very large number of compounds, another trait which is very important to life. Yet water is one of the deadliest elements as well in all of its forms
 
2014-01-16 12:08:53 PM  

brantgoose: I wonder if you could keep some of these exotic ices stable by simultaneously reducing pressure and decreasing temperature.

How long would they take to melt?

Could you decrease pressure slowly enough to prevent them exploding, but not so slowly as to destabilize them?

Is there anything strong enough but transparent that would allow you to see them?

They (ices) raise many questions.

Presumably they could also raise a rocket a considerable distance without having to burn them, not unlike a dry ice rocket.

Water is strange stuff. If it didn't expand as it froze, there might be no life on Earth as ice could form at the bottom of the ocean and thus freeze the world from the bottom up. Also, it is a solvent of a very large number of compounds, another trait which is very important to life. Yet water is one of the deadliest elements as well in all of its forms



Check out the Phase Diagram. It answers a lot of those questions.
 
2014-01-16 12:15:30 PM  

Hollie Maea: Mikey1969: Monkeyfark Ridiculous: So...you're saying there was a problem, and yo, they solved it?

That's actually playing right now on the speakers here at work... LOL

You should consider finding a new job.


Nah, they try and mix it up fairly to represent all 100 people who work here. Besides, I work in my own office and can barely hear the music, so I play my own stuff.
 
2014-01-16 01:26:18 PM  

Clash City Farker: fusillade762: Ice II

Ice ice.


Rip off. The under pressure comment was made first and you are just stealing his ideas.


No, man, they're totally different.  That ice went da, dadada, dadada da, and his went da, dadada, da, dada.  His ice is from the street, yo!
 
2014-01-16 02:29:26 PM  
I just discovered that site today, and have spent about 2 hours reading the various results from the "surprise me" button.

/almost as addictive as tvtropes.org
 
2014-01-16 02:52:20 PM  
I may need to go back and read TFA again, but it seems like they went a long way just to fail to answer their own question.  "It still becomes ice, just different."  That's... not much of an explanation.

Also, watch out for Ice IX.  It's a real MF'er.
 
2014-01-16 02:54:03 PM  

extroverted_suicide: I may need to go back and read TFA again, but it seems like they went a long way just to fail to answer their own question.  "It still becomes ice, just different."  That's... not much of an explanation.



How so?  They provided some detail on how its structure was different from common ice.
 
2014-01-16 02:57:13 PM  
i.imgur.com

Ice VI? It does have a melting temp of about 86c and will freeze crap solid on contact.
 
2014-01-16 04:58:23 PM  

Clash City Farker: fusillade762: Ice II

Ice ice.

Rip off. The under pressure comment was made first and you are just stealing his ideas.


No, no. His post was like "'Dun dun dun dada dun dun" and mine was like "Dun dun dun dad dun dun tsss".
 
2014-01-16 04:59:43 PM  

Farker Soze: Clash City Farker: fusillade762: Ice II

Ice ice.

Rip off. The under pressure comment was made first and you are just stealing his ideas.

No, man, they're totally different.  That ice went da, dadada, dadada da, and his went da, dadada, da, dada.  His ice is from the street, yo!


DAMN IT.
 
2014-01-16 06:06:48 PM  

dragonchild: Monkeyfark Ridiculous: Ice VII:

You know, or is that a stock photo tagged to an article about exotic ice?



Actually, never mind, that's just ice.
 
2014-01-16 06:11:39 PM  
Is water wet?
 
2014-01-16 08:55:31 PM  

muck1969: Monkeyfark Ridiculous: So...you're saying there was a problem, and yo, they solved it?

No, it's under pressure.


That. Was. Brilliant.  Kudos to you both!
 
2014-01-16 10:47:33 PM  

uttertosh: Lith: "It is theorized that at pressures somewhere between 1.55-5.62 terapascals ice will become metallic."

I knew it, ice bullets are real!

yeah, at the centre of the sun - have you any idea how many zeroes in a terapascal?!?


3 more than in a gigapascal and 3 less than in a petapascal.
 
2014-01-17 07:22:44 AM  

Lith: uttertosh: Lith: "It is theorized that at pressures somewhere between 1.55-5.62 terapascals ice will become metallic."

I knew it, ice bullets are real!

yeah, at the centre of the sun - have you any idea how many zeroes in a terapascal?!?

3 more than in a gigapascal and 3 less than in a petapascal.


well, that took you a while to look up. ;-p
 
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