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(io9)   Not news: A Sci-Fi convention is cancelled. News: Because the hotel didn't agree to the convention's anti-harassment policy. FARK: The hotel staff called the attendees "costumed freaks"   (observationdeck.io9.com) divider line 136
    More: Asinine, science fiction convention, hotel staff, harassment  
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4165 clicks; posted to Geek » on 15 Jan 2014 at 2:34 PM (40 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



136 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-01-15 01:21:17 PM  
NERDS!
 
2014-01-15 01:27:46 PM  
I know nothing about these folks except that there are a lot of them. That's gonna be an expensive cancellation.
 
2014-01-15 01:38:38 PM  
So the hotel lost $100,000 in business, and another hotel will get it.

What's the problem, again?
 
2014-01-15 01:48:28 PM  

Pocket Ninja: So the hotel lost $100,000 in business, and another hotel will get it.

What's the problem, again?


Exactly. Someone's gonna lose their job over this.
 
2014-01-15 01:50:23 PM  

Calmamity: Pocket Ninja: So the hotel lost $100,000 in business, and another hotel will get it.

What's the problem, again?

Exactly. Someone's gonna lose their job over this.


Yep!  The customer is always right.  Hope that sneering contempt pays the mortgage...
 
2014-01-15 01:55:11 PM  
Sounds like a furry situation.

Sounds like the fur was flying
.

Sounds like someone got their back hair up.

I could probably go on.
 
2014-01-15 01:57:49 PM  
Let's be honest here - those sci-fi conventions scare most of us.
 
2014-01-15 02:02:59 PM  
Yeah, that's a tenuous situation.  Scifi geeks overwhelmingly tend to be Grammar Nazis as well, so misspelling the word "costumed" around them might be a bad idea.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-01-15 02:03:39 PM  
Seems to be a win-win situation. The hotel is better off without the demanding freaks and the freaks are better off without the uptight hotel.

The article reminds me of a type of person who used to pop up in book related discussions. He/she would complain that he/she liked to go into bookstores, grab a book, and read. Eventually the staff would tire of this and make a request like, buy something if you're going to sit here all day. The browser would get outraged, return the book to the shelf, walk out, and NEVER GO BACK. Each thought the other had been taught a lesson and lost the exchange. Win-win.

(For you younger Farkers, bookstores used to be places you could go to find bound paper versions of books. Like modern bookstores, they often allowed patrons to read excerpts of books before buying the whole thing.)
 
2014-01-15 02:06:29 PM  
img.gawkerassets.com

"To them you're just a freak...like me."
 
2014-01-15 02:20:57 PM  
The ghost of Disclave still haunts the halls of the New Carrollton Ramada.
 
2014-01-15 02:29:07 PM  

StrikitRich: Sounds like a furry situation.

Sounds like the fur was flying.

Sounds like someone got their back hair up.

I could probably go on.


Furries don't normally furry at Sci-Fi conventions. They usually geek/nerd out instead.

2wolves: The ghost of Disclave still haunts the halls of the New Carrollton Ramada.


fc09.deviantart.net

I'm thinking of cosplaying as Arcade Gannon at Midsouth Con this year. :)
 
2014-01-15 02:32:44 PM  
GM probably found out what "yiffing " meant.
 
2014-01-15 02:36:21 PM  
The "costumed freaks" are the best part.
 
2014-01-15 02:40:28 PM  
So many other nice hotels suck it up and deal with us "costume freaks" for conventions. Hell, most of them welcome us nerds and our money (many of us have lots of money). I go to DragonCon every year, and pretty much the entirety of downtown Atlanta welcomes the con attendees. I know one of the offsite hotels throws their guests a goddamned barbecue, because they're happy to be full up for 4 or 5 nights. And this is definitely not a Westin thing... I've stayed in the Westin in Atlanta during con. they did everything they could to make my stay even better. The local Westin in my city is hosting a Doctor Who con in June.

So yeah... someone is gonna lose his job over this. Good.

/can I have it please...
 
2014-01-15 02:45:14 PM  
As a veteran of Sci Fi conventions in the late 80s and early 90s, I saw this occasionally flare up.   One time the hotel had inadvisably booked our SciFi con together with some evangelicals, and a few encounters resulted in some complaints.  As a result of that, the hotel posted a set of rules for the SciFi guests.  Rule 6 had to do with PDAs (public displays of affection) which immediately backfired and for many years afterwards T-shirts and stickers and buttons were worn with the phrase "hugs and backrubs, I break rule 6!"
 
2014-01-15 02:46:04 PM  
Also, something that is worth mentioning is that in most cases, SciFi cons fill up hotels on otherwise dead weekends where there would be nothing else.   So they are likely losing that money in its entirety, it won't be replaced by another event.
 
2014-01-15 02:46:37 PM  
I'm going to SCARAB gaming con Friday, so I'm getting a kick out of this.
 
2014-01-15 02:49:54 PM  

harlock: T-shirts and stickers and buttons were worn with the phrase "hugs and backrubs, I break rule 6!"


Whoa easy there chief. That's really pushing the limits there.
 
2014-01-15 02:52:13 PM  

2wolves: The ghost of Disclave still haunts the halls of the New Carrollton Ramada.


I was working security at that event.  So a chance for a Star Wars quote:  "It's not my fault."
 
2014-01-15 02:52:57 PM  

Pocket Ninja: So the hotel lost $100,000 in business, and another hotel will get it.

What's the problem, again?


It's gonna cost more than $100,000 to get rid of the resulting smell.
 
2014-01-15 02:53:53 PM  
It wasn't cancelled.  It just moved.
 
2014-01-15 02:55:14 PM  
what a costume freak may look like

img6.imageshack.us
img21.imageshack.us
 
2014-01-15 02:56:36 PM  
I'd like to get me some Doom Kitty...
 
2014-01-15 02:56:50 PM  
I remember talking to the hotel staff during an anime convention in the D.C. area some time ago and asking them how the anime/sci-fi conventions were compared to the other conventions and events that took place there. The staff said that they looked forward to the anime convention more than almost anything else because it was both interesting to watch and the attendees were better behaved on the whole than the drunken businessmen that populated the business meetings/conventions that also took place at the hotel.
 
2014-01-15 02:58:35 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: what a costume freak may look like

[img6.imageshack.us image 850x850]
[img21.imageshack.us image 630x960]


Too bad most o the women attending those conventions don't look like that, or the women that are featured in the pictures from the conventions that show up on the internet. Most of the women at those conventions are about 20-30 pounds, or more, heavier and trying to squeeze into a costume the size of the one the girl in your picture is wearing.
 
2014-01-15 03:03:23 PM  

ongbok: Too bad most o the women attending those conventions don't look like that, or the women that are featured in the pictures from the conventions that show up on the internet. Most of the women at those conventions are about 20-30 pounds, or more, heavier and trying to squeeze into a costume the size of the one the girl in your picture is wearing.


well, there is no reason to dwell on the negative.
img12.imageshack.us

img836.imageshack.us


And it's not just the ladies that do that.....

the horror the horror
 
2014-01-15 03:05:01 PM  
back in the 80's I attended a few SciFi conventions, V-Con, NorwestCon and the like.  there was a contingent of Republican Jesus types who would walk in and accuse everyone of being Satanists, go through the merchant rooms and claim that every piece of merchandise was Satanic,  even crosses.   I recall walking up beside them and asking about Satanist discounts, or posting room numbers for black mass.

those were the days.
 
2014-01-15 03:06:48 PM  
There was a sort of similar incident a few years ago that threatened to derail one of Virginia's conventions a few years ago, only that the hotel spokesman used the excuse of customer safety when a person got stabbed while the con was going on. Eventually, the spokesman got yanked aside and had it patiently explained to her that the con is one of the hotel's more lucrative days (and that stabbing thing was gang related). Every now and then I hear stories about the hotel still short selling congoers who stay there, but a overall, I think they got the hint.

TL;DR. Conventions get you money. Sci-fi cons get you damn lots of money. If you do not want costume freak money, there's something wrong with you.

Ask people in Pittsburgh about Anthrocon and its effect on local business. You'll be surprised.
 
2014-01-15 03:06:50 PM  
Oh no! He called me a name- kick him out!
So SF stands for "snow flake' now?
 
2014-01-15 03:09:23 PM  

madgordy: back in the 80's I attended a few SciFi conventions, V-Con, NorwestCon and the like.  there was a contingent of Republican Jesus types who would walk in and accuse everyone of being Satanists, go through the merchant rooms and claim that every piece of merchandise was Satanic,  even crosses.   I recall walking up beside them and asking about Satanist discounts, or posting room numbers for black mass.

those were the days.


See, this is why you get several people cosplaying as Jesus on Sunday at the cons.
 
2014-01-15 03:10:22 PM  

redsquid: So SF stands for "snow flake' now?


It didn't before?


img163.imageshack.us
img36.imageshack.us
 
2014-01-15 03:11:23 PM  
Yeah, you know what? If a business can't respect its customers, it doesn't deserve the business. Any service industry job I held, I would have gotten fired for calling the customers freaks. Go somewhere where you guys will at least get treated like customers, fark this shiat-ass hotel.
 
2014-01-15 03:11:54 PM  
Why would a hotel be adamantly pro-harassment?

/ They aren't wrong about the costumed freaks
 
2014-01-15 03:13:04 PM  
The last time I stayed at the convention center Hyatt in Seattle there was an anime convention that took place shortly after I arrived. For some reason there was a contingent of furries, so yes costumed freaks. It's bad when even the nerdiest 16 year old dressed as an obscure character is talking about how those people are making all of the "regular" cosplayers look bad.
 
2014-01-15 03:14:35 PM  

redsquid: Oh no! He called me a name- kick him out!
So SF stands for "snow flake' now?


I know this seems like a page from Rick Romero's school of business, but if a group of people are willing to spend a lot of money collectively for services you offer it's best not to insult them.  At least not until after they've given you have deposited their money.
 
2014-01-15 03:17:00 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: redsquid: So SF stands for "snow flake' now?

It didn't before?


[img163.imageshack.us image 497x750]
[img36.imageshack.us image 640x960]


I've loved to aim for their small thermal exhaust port, just below the main port.
 
2014-01-15 03:19:06 PM  

ongbok: Too bad most o the women attending those conventions don't look like that, or the women that are featured in the pictures from the conventions that show up on the internet. Most of the women at those conventions are about 20-30 pounds, or more, heavier and trying to squeeze into a costume the size of the one the girl in your picture is wearing.


Awww, you might have to see an "uggo" at all those SciFi conventions you don't go to.

Grow the fark up.
 
2014-01-15 03:23:03 PM  

Bunny Deville: So many other nice hotels suck it up and deal with us "costume freaks" for conventions. Hell, most of them welcome us nerds and our money (many of us have lots of money). I go to DragonCon every year, and pretty much the entirety of downtown Atlanta welcomes the con attendees. I know one of the offsite hotels throws their guests a goddamned barbecue, because they're happy to be full up for 4 or 5 nights. And this is definitely not a Westin thing... I've stayed in the Westin in Atlanta during con. they did everything they could to make my stay even better. The local Westin in my city is hosting a Doctor Who con in June.

So yeah... someone is gonna lose his job over this. Good.

/can I have it please...


I read the headline and was a-skeerd for a moment that DC was being cancelled. After a several year hiatus,
my husband and I are going this year - bringing our oldest son for his first Con ever. It should be a pretty cool
time.
 
2014-01-15 03:23:35 PM  

Dr Dreidel: ongbok: Too bad most o the women attending those conventions don't look like that, or the women that are featured in the pictures from the conventions that show up on the internet. Most of the women at those conventions are about 20-30 pounds, or more, heavier and trying to squeeze into a costume the size of the one the girl in your picture is wearing.

Awww, you might have to see an "uggo" at all those SciFi conventions you don't go to.

Grow the fark up.


I doesn't bother to me. I was pointing out that all of the pictures that people post on the internet aren't truly representative of what they will likely see. And if you didn't understand that, maybe you need to grow up.
 
2014-01-15 03:25:25 PM  

harlock: Also, something that is worth mentioning is that in most cases, SciFi cons fill up hotels on otherwise dead weekends where there would be nothing else.   So they are likely losing that money in its entirety, it won't be replaced by another event.


And the linked article said an expected 2,000 to 3,000 attendees. With a (very) conservative outlay of $200 per attendee, there would have to be some head rolling for this one.
 
2014-01-15 03:28:17 PM  

redsquid: Oh no! He called me a name- kick him out!
So SF stands for "snow flake' now?


It's more about, "they wanted to give us money, he/she insulted them so they went to the considerable time/expense of dissolving their contract with us and cost us $100,00 up front, and probably quite a bit more than from cancelled hotel reservations, etc.  Now it's public.  Fire him/her."

I can't blame the convention (if it's true).  Unless I'm in a Montey Python skit, I don't normally pay to be insulted by the staff.  If they feel the need to do so, then I and my $ will go somewhere else.
 
2014-01-15 03:30:39 PM  
The Prime Directive applies to Sci-Fi conventions too!
 
2014-01-15 03:31:49 PM  

meathome: redsquid: Oh no! He called me a name- kick him out!
So SF stands for "snow flake' now?

It's more about, "they wanted to give us money, he/she insulted them so they went to the considerable time/expense of dissolving their contract with us and cost us $100,00 up front, and probably quite a bit more than from cancelled hotel reservations, etc.  Now it's public.  Fire him/her."

I can't blame the convention (if it's true).  Unless I'm in a Montey Python skit, I don't normally pay to be insulted by the staff.  If they feel the need to do so, then I and my $ will go somewhere else.


You ever notice that the biggest assholes think that they have the right to insult people without any repercussion, and when a person retaliates against being insulted the asshole will claim something is wrong with the person for retaliating.
 
Ant
2014-01-15 03:32:54 PM  

ongbok: Most of the women at those conventions are about 20-30 pounds, or more, heavier and trying to squeeze into a costume the size of the one the girl in your picture is wearing.


OMG! They should be banned from showing themselves in public! They should live in shame!
 
2014-01-15 03:34:00 PM  
Betcha it has more to do with the average age of attendees than the purpose of the con.  "Let's go to a sedate, business oriented, uncontroversial convention to display our desire to conform to social norms by causing as little disruption to the people around us..." said absolutely NO ONE going to a sci-fi convention.  If you're going to one of those, you're doing it because it's FUN and you want to be around people who are going to let loose and have as much fun as you want to have.  Which is why those cons are awesome.  Except that they're also messier and louder, and they do more damage to the hotel and/or convention center, disrupt more of the other meetings/conventions going on at the same time, have more in-room events that make noise up and down the hallways (despite organizers' dire warnings and/or enforcement).

I've never been to a hotel and had the check-in clerk say "we apologize in advance for any inconvenience caused by the insurance agents' convention that's going on during your stay."  I've heard apologies for the sci-fi/comic-book/whatever conventions going on plenty of times.

So I can see it from the hotel's point of view - it might just be that the hassle isn't worth the money.

Personally, I don't mind the costumed freaks.  Let 'em have their fun.  You're only young once.

(That stated, if you could PLEASE not stampede through the halls the night before I have a big presentation with an important client, I'd appreciate it.  Just sayin'.)
 
2014-01-15 03:35:18 PM  

Ant: ongbok: Most of the women at those conventions are about 20-30 pounds, or more, heavier and trying to squeeze into a costume the size of the one the girl in your picture is wearing.

OMG! They should be banned from showing themselves in public! They should live in shame!


They quite obviously have the right to show themselves in public. And it's not a pretty sight.
 
Ant
2014-01-15 03:36:26 PM  

redsquid: Oh no! He called me a name- kick him out!
So SF stands for "snow flake' now?


Oh no! Assholes don't get free reign to be assholes!
 
2014-01-15 03:37:29 PM  
Well any non obese freak who was staying at the hotel during this time caught a lucky break.
 
2014-01-15 03:39:49 PM  

Ant: ongbok: Most of the women at those conventions are about 20-30 pounds, or more, heavier and trying to squeeze into a costume the size of the one the girl in your picture is wearing.

OMG! They should be banned from showing themselves in public! They should live in shame!


Fat people should live in shame, even if we can't ban them from showing themselves in public.   However, the original point was not that, but that the pictures of professional models that losers put up in these threads is not exactly representative of the type of person who would actually be at the cons for something other than a paycheck.
 
2014-01-15 03:40:39 PM  

harlock: As a veteran of Sci Fi conventions in the late 80s and early 90s, I saw this occasionally flare up.   One time the hotel had inadvisably booked our SciFi con together with some evangelicals, and a few encounters resulted in some complaints.  As a result of that, the hotel posted a set of rules for the SciFi guests.  Rule 6 had to do with PDAs (public displays of affection) which immediately backfired and for many years afterwards T-shirts and stickers and buttons were worn with the phrase "hugs and backrubs, I break rule 6!"



No rishathra in the public spaces.
Save it for the room parties.
 
Ant
2014-01-15 03:41:36 PM  

ongbok: I doesn't bother to me. I was pointing out that all of the pictures that people post on the internet aren't truly representative of what they will likely see. And if you didn't understand that, maybe you need to grow up.


I think that point is so obvious it didn't even need to be expressed.
 
Ant
2014-01-15 03:42:55 PM  

lilplatinum: Fat people should live in shame


Why should they?
 
2014-01-15 03:45:58 PM  
What exactly was the hotel's duties in the harassment policy? It didn't seem very clear. It kind of seems like they wanted to be able to use hotel security every time someone got their feelings hurt?
 
2014-01-15 03:46:45 PM  

redsquid: Oh no! He called me a name- kick him out!
So SF stands for "snow flake' now?


I have the capacity to deal with harassment and bullying without the need for people to help me but it isn't something I enjoy.  I have never in my life sat down after a long day and said to myself, "You know Egoy, today was pretty good but it would have been much better if you had had to go so far as to physically assault someone just to get them to leave you alone.  Maybe tomorrow you should act much more pathetic to lure a would be bully in just so you can teach them a lesson."

Even though the vast majority of con attendees are capable of dealing with these situations just like the general public is (since they are the general public), they paid money to go to this event and shouldn't have to deal with assholes while they are there.  besides which it is the decision of the con organizers to set these policies.  If they feel they will have a better experience and thus more attendees with the policy in place then that is their business.  If they are wrong then the will suffer from reduced attendance each year.
 
2014-01-15 03:48:41 PM  

tillerman35: (That stated, if you could PLEASE not stampede through the halls the night before I have a big presentation with an important client, I'd appreciate it. Just sayin'.)


I've never been to a major hotel that didn't have a few "quiet floors". Floors set up for old funddy duddies that want it quiet after 9pm.


Fav-con pic evar:

img15.imageshack.us


If you get it, you're losing your mind right now because of the awesome.


also, for all the haters:

Mini Master Chief says:

img826.imageshack.us
 
Ant
2014-01-15 03:50:34 PM  

insertsnarkyusername: What exactly was the hotel's duties in the harassment policy? It didn't seem very clear. It kind of seems like they wanted to be able to use hotel security every time someone got their feelings hurt?


They just wanted to be able to kick out people who were making the con miserable for others. I don't see a problem. Keep your asshole comments to yourself and/or don't be a lecherous creep. Is that really so difficult?
 
2014-01-15 03:53:06 PM  

Ant: insertsnarkyusername: What exactly was the hotel's duties in the harassment policy? It didn't seem very clear. It kind of seems like they wanted to be able to use hotel security every time someone got their feelings hurt?

They just wanted to be able to kick out people who were making the con miserable for others. I don't see a problem. Keep your asshole comments to yourself and/or don't be a lecherous creep. Is that really so difficult?


For some people, it is.
 
2014-01-15 03:53:10 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: what a costume freak may look like

[img6.imageshack.us image 850x850]
[img21.imageshack.us image 630x960]


Yub Yub.
 
2014-01-15 03:53:15 PM  

ongbok: Dr Dreidel: ongbok: Too bad most o the women attending those conventions don't look like that, or the women that are featured in the pictures from the conventions that show up on the internet. Most of the women at those conventions are about 20-30 pounds, or more, heavier and trying to squeeze into a costume the size of the one the girl in your picture is wearing.

Awww, you might have to see an "uggo" at all those SciFi conventions you don't go to.

Grow the fark up.

I doesn't bother to me. I was pointing out that all of the pictures that people post on the internet aren't truly representative of what they will likely see. And if you didn't understand that, maybe you need to grow up.


Depends on the con in question.  Sure, you see some who are obviously the wrong body type to pull off the outfit, but you would be surprised in how many are indeed decent to hot.  There is something about being in their element, and knowing they will be the center of attention that drives a lot of cute geeks to dress up to show off what they got.
 
2014-01-15 03:54:41 PM  

Ant: insertsnarkyusername: What exactly was the hotel's duties in the harassment policy? It didn't seem very clear. It kind of seems like they wanted to be able to use hotel security every time someone got their feelings hurt?

They just wanted to be able to kick out people who were making the con miserable for others. I don't see a problem. Keep your asshole comments to yourself and/or don't be a lecherous creep. Is that really so difficult?


So they are asking the hotel to basically police the con and punish guests? That's a logistical nightmare that a lot of hotels would prefer to avoid. No matter what they do in any situation they are losing someone's business, even if that person is being an asshole.
 
Ant
2014-01-15 03:56:11 PM  

pxlboy: For some people, it is.


I know.

The thing that really pisses me off is that they act like it's a First Amendment issue if they don't get to harass people at a private event.
 
2014-01-15 03:56:55 PM  

tillerman35: Betcha it has more to do with the average age of attendees than the purpose of the con.  "Let's go to a sedate, business oriented, uncontroversial convention to display our desire to conform to social norms by causing as little disruption to the people around us..." said absolutely NO ONE going to a sci-fi convention.  If you're going to one of those, you're doing it because it's FUN and you want to be around people who are going to let loose and have as much fun as you want to have.  Which is why those cons are awesome.  Except that they're also messier and louder, and they do more damage to the hotel and/or convention center, disrupt more of the other meetings/conventions going on at the same time, have more in-room events that make noise up and down the hallways (despite organizers' dire warnings and/or enforcement).


In my experience having worked a number of cons and dealt with multiple hotels, this is simply not true.  As Ashkuyun mentioned above, business conventions are way more destructive and less willing to pay for damages.  I think this is partially image-related, and partially entitlement. A bunch of geeks and nerds are generally much more considerate with the staff and space, even though they look wild.
 
Ant
2014-01-15 03:57:52 PM  

insertsnarkyusername: Ant: insertsnarkyusername: What exactly was the hotel's duties in the harassment policy? It didn't seem very clear. It kind of seems like they wanted to be able to use hotel security every time someone got their feelings hurt?

They just wanted to be able to kick out people who were making the con miserable for others. I don't see a problem. Keep your asshole comments to yourself and/or don't be a lecherous creep. Is that really so difficult?

So they are asking the hotel to basically police the con and punish guests? That's a logistical nightmare that a lot of hotels would prefer to avoid. No matter what they do in any situation they are losing someone's business, even if that person is being an asshole.


I'm pretty sure they would just ask the hotel security with assistance in expelling someone who the Con staff had deemed to be a problem.
 
2014-01-15 03:59:35 PM  

pxlboy: Ant: insertsnarkyusername: What exactly was the hotel's duties in the harassment policy? It didn't seem very clear. It kind of seems like they wanted to be able to use hotel security every time someone got their feelings hurt?

They just wanted to be able to kick out people who were making the con miserable for others. I don't see a problem. Keep your asshole comments to yourself and/or don't be a lecherous creep. Is that really so difficult?

For some people, it is.



yep,
img62.imageshack.us


FYI that's Jessica Nigri. She does cosplay and conventions for a living. She probably has had to deal with perverts and creeps on a scale I can't imagine. I would pay cash money to find out what would make her react that way.
 
2014-01-15 04:01:27 PM  

Ant: insertsnarkyusername: Ant: insertsnarkyusername: What exactly was the hotel's duties in the harassment policy? It didn't seem very clear. It kind of seems like they wanted to be able to use hotel security every time someone got their feelings hurt?

They just wanted to be able to kick out people who were making the con miserable for others. I don't see a problem. Keep your asshole comments to yourself and/or don't be a lecherous creep. Is that really so difficult?

So they are asking the hotel to basically police the con and punish guests? That's a logistical nightmare that a lot of hotels would prefer to avoid. No matter what they do in any situation they are losing someone's business, even if that person is being an asshole.

I'm pretty sure they would just ask the hotel security with assistance in expelling someone who the Con staff had deemed to be a problem.


And the hotel is supposed to kick someone out who paid to be there on the word of the con staff? Ban them from the convention areas you rented out and be done with it. There is no reason the hotel should be involved in this. It's a business, it doesn't care if someone's feelings get hurt, or some girl got leered at or any of that nonsense. If there is an incident that breaks a law the hotel will call the police but that's the extent of the involvement. Being a large customer doesn't give the con the right to decide who can be in the hotel.
 
2014-01-15 04:03:02 PM  
Oh, no! The most materially privileged social demographic in history is being oppressed again!
 
2014-01-15 04:04:56 PM  

AspectRatio: Oh, no! The most materially privileged social demographic in history is being oppressed again!


elves?

img17.imageshack.us
 
2014-01-15 04:06:11 PM  

AspectRatio: Oh, no! The most materially privileged social demographic in history is being oppressed again!


The Catholic Church?
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-01-15 04:08:59 PM  
insertsnarkyusername: What exactly was the hotel's duties in the harassment policy?

As far as I can tell, the hotel had no duty. A hotel employee said something along the lines of, "those freaks have an oversensitive hyper-politically correct policy." The hypersensitive overly politically correct freaks took it badly. Words were exchanged, and the hotel let them back out of the contract. Either party could have made the other's experience miserable if they stuck to the letter of the contract.

Quite likely a hotel employee has now been told not to say such things when freaks paying customers are within earshot.

Here is the official statement from the con, based on which I made up the quote above: A senior Westin employee referred to our staff, attendees, and guests as "freaks," and hotel staff expressed their disapproval of our anti-harassment policy.
 
2014-01-15 04:09:34 PM  

Gneisskate: tillerman35: Betcha it has more to do with the average age of attendees than the purpose of the con.  "Let's go to a sedate, business oriented, uncontroversial convention to display our desire to conform to social norms by causing as little disruption to the people around us..." said absolutely NO ONE going to a sci-fi convention.  If you're going to one of those, you're doing it because it's FUN and you want to be around people who are going to let loose and have as much fun as you want to have.  Which is why those cons are awesome.  Except that they're also messier and louder, and they do more damage to the hotel and/or convention center, disrupt more of the other meetings/conventions going on at the same time, have more in-room events that make noise up and down the hallways (despite organizers' dire warnings and/or enforcement).

In my experience having worked a number of cons and dealt with multiple hotels, this is simply not true.  As Ashkuyun mentioned above, business conventions are way more destructive and less willing to pay for damages.  I think this is partially image-related, and partially entitlement. A bunch of geeks and nerds are generally much more considerate with the staff and space, even though they look wild.


This.

Business conventions may smell less of body odor and shattered dreams, but when it comes to drunken rampages and property damage, it's business conventions hands-down.

Though now I'm curious which comicon that tillerman35 had run afoul of.
 
2014-01-15 04:10:34 PM  

AspectRatio: Oh, no! The most materially privileged social demographic in history is being oppressed again!


Choosing to spend money at a different hotel because an employee insulted you at the original isn't oppression, and aside from what you wrote, no one is claiming that they're being oppressed.
 
2014-01-15 04:14:50 PM  

Ant: lilplatinum: Fat people should live in shame

Why should they?


The same reason people in Ed Hardy and MMA shirts should, they are visually disgusting (and not by accident, but by choice) and choose to inflict their obscene appearance upon their betters.
 
2014-01-15 04:16:55 PM  

ZAZ: insertsnarkyusername: What exactly was the hotel's duties in the harassment policy?

As far as I can tell, the hotel had no duty. A hotel employee said something along the lines of, "those freaks have an oversensitive hyper-politically correct policy." The hypersensitive overly politically correct freaks took it badly. Words were exchanged, and the hotel let them back out of the contract. Either party could have made the other's experience miserable if they stuck to the letter of the contract.

Quite likely a hotel employee has now been told not to say such things when freaks paying customers are within earshot.

Here is the official statement from the con, based on which I made up the quote above: A senior Westin employee referred to our staff, attendees, and guests as "freaks," and hotel staff expressed their disapproval of our anti-harassment policy.


This is also part of that statement. ""As we want to put the safety and enjoyment of our guests and attendees first, we requested that the hotel make changes to ensure that our attendees and guests be treated with the same respect as any other Westin hotel guests. By mutual decision, we agreed to part ways with the hotel.".

They don't mention what changes they asked the hotel to make. Not only that but the statement the hotel released basically says Chicon is full of shiat. Which is an odd move for a business, usually it's just easier to sack someone and say you changed. Not deny that the event actually happened.
 
2014-01-15 04:32:19 PM  
img.fark.net
 
2014-01-15 04:35:07 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: tillerman35: (That stated, if you could PLEASE not stampede through the halls the night before I have a big presentation with an important client, I'd appreciate it. Just sayin'.)

I've never been to a major hotel that didn't have a few "quiet floors". Floors set up for old funddy duddies that want it quiet after 9pm.


Fav-con pic evar:

[img15.imageshack.us image 800x684]


If you get it, you're losing your mind right now because of the awesome.


also, for all the haters:

Mini Master Chief says:

[img826.imageshack.us image 416x529]


Molly Exclamation Point Exclamation Point Exclamation Point
 
2014-01-15 04:37:36 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: pxlboy: Ant: insertsnarkyusername: What exactly was the hotel's duties in the harassment policy? It didn't seem very clear. It kind of seems like they wanted to be able to use hotel security every time someone got their feelings hurt?

They just wanted to be able to kick out people who were making the con miserable for others. I don't see a problem. Keep your asshole comments to yourself and/or don't be a lecherous creep. Is that really so difficult?

For some people, it is.


yep,
[img62.imageshack.us image 480x270]


FYI that's Jessica Nigri. She does cosplay and conventions for a living. She probably has had to deal with perverts and creeps on a scale I can't imagine. I would pay cash money to find out what would make her react that way.


It's a joke. The concept of "hover hand: is when awkward geeks try to get their picture taken with celebrities/girls in cosplay, but are shy/awkward about where to put their hand so it hovers just around the shoulder of the person whose picture they want. The picture posted is one that's been staged where the guy told her about "hover hand" and they exaggerated it for comedic effect.

/make checks payable to Dr. Hunk Steadman...I have a tax thing....
 
2014-01-15 04:38:33 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: pxlboy: Ant: insertsnarkyusername: What exactly was the hotel's duties in the harassment policy? It didn't seem very clear. It kind of seems like they wanted to be able to use hotel security every time someone got their feelings hurt?

They just wanted to be able to kick out people who were making the con miserable for others. I don't see a problem. Keep your asshole comments to yourself and/or don't be a lecherous creep. Is that really so difficult?

For some people, it is.


yep,
[img62.imageshack.us image 480x270]


FYI that's Jessica Nigri. She does cosplay and conventions for a living. She probably has had to deal with perverts and creeps on a scale I can't imagine. I would pay cash money to find out what would make her react that way.


Looks like that's a staged Hover Hand photo...not a genuine creeper incident.
 
2014-01-15 04:38:41 PM  

dallylamma: Molly Exclamation Point Exclamation Point Exclamation Point


Molly at Splatter-con wearing a Splatter-con t-shirt with the picture dated in 06 with Bruce Campbell.
 
2014-01-15 04:40:34 PM  

Ant: ongbok: Most of the women at those conventions are about 20-30 pounds, or more, heavier and trying to squeeze into a costume the size of the one the girl in your picture is wearing.

OMG! They should be banned from showing themselves in public! They should live in shame!


img.fark.net
 
2014-01-15 04:42:39 PM  
This reminds me of the reason that Battlestar Galactica wasn't revived in 1995, it was revived in 2003.

Seriously.

In 1993 science fiction on TV was undergoing something of a revival.  The most famous shows of that era were Deep Space 9 and Babylon 5, but there were several dozen other less famous shows which came and went as well.  FOX wanted a sci-fi action-adventure series, with lots of spaceships and fighting and stuff blowing up and big heroes.

Well, Richard Hatch, the guy who played Apollo on the old Battlestar Galactica (and played Tom Zarek in the new one) had been trying for years to get the show revived.  He even funded a promo/trailer out of his own pocket for the effort.  He'd been shopping this idea of a BSG revival series around, and FOX was interested.

There was a catch.  They would have to pay money to get the rights to BSG, while developing their own show from scratch was free.  FOX would need to be convinced that there were enough fans and support for Galactica to warrant paying for a revival instead of a new show.

Well, the 15th anniversary Battlestar Galactica convention was being held at the Universal City Hilton in Los Angeles in October.  It would be a perfect place to show the executives that Galactica wasn't forgotten and that a revival would get instant fans.  Word went out in the sci-fi community that if you loved BSG, this was THE con to go to, because FOX executives would be there to test the waters for a revival.  If they liked what they saw from fan response, a new show was very likely.

Well, there's a reason that Galactica wasn't revived in the 1990's.  An executive in the Hilton chain was getting married that weekend, and to save money on renting a venue, he was using one of that chain's hotels for his wedding and reception. . .the Universal City Hilton.  He didn't want a bunch of "costume freaks" running around, so on his authority, he ordered the hotel to sabotage the convention.  They didn't cancel on the organizers, they kept their money. . .but anybody who said they were there for the con, was told their reservation was lost, or the convention was cancelled, and turned away.  They even turned away some of the invited guests, who were cast members of the old series.

One guest, Dirk Benedict (i.e.old Starbuck) was turned away and was walking out the door when he saw a fan in costume walking around and came up to him to find out what was happening, and found the con that way.

Basically the bulk of the congoers were shooed away by the hotel.  By the time the FOX executives showed up, the convention had a pathetic, anemic turnout of a small fraction of the pre-registrations they had.  FOX was unimpressed and the revival was dead.

FOX created their own space adventure series to fill their demand: Space: Above and Beyond.

. . .and the revival wouldn't get underway for another decade.

Eventually, after word of this got around and a number of complaints and angry letters from fans, an apology letter was printed in Starlog magazine from the Hilton chain about the incident.
 
2014-01-15 04:43:41 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: dallylamma: Molly Exclamation Point Exclamation Point Exclamation Point

Molly at Splatter-con wearing a Splatter-con t-shirt with the picture dated in 06 with Bruce Campbell.


One of my favorite books in the series so far.
 
2014-01-15 04:50:12 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus:

elves?

[img17.imageshack.us image 427x640]


Yer doin' the Lord's work, Stealth.

threadbombing.com
 
2014-01-15 05:03:51 PM  

Therion: The Stealth Hippopotamus:

elves?

[img17.imageshack.us image 427x640]

Yer doin' the Lord's work, Stealth.

[threadbombing.com image 500x375]



img837.imageshack.us

PROUD
 
2014-01-15 05:12:15 PM  

digitalrain: Bunny Deville: So many other nice hotels suck it up and deal with us "costume freaks" for conventions. Hell, most of them welcome us nerds and our money (many of us have lots of money). I go to DragonCon every year, and pretty much the entirety of downtown Atlanta welcomes the con attendees. I know one of the offsite hotels throws their guests a goddamned barbecue, because they're happy to be full up for 4 or 5 nights. And this is definitely not a Westin thing... I've stayed in the Westin in Atlanta during con. they did everything they could to make my stay even better. The local Westin in my city is hosting a Doctor Who con in June.

So yeah... someone is gonna lose his job over this. Good.

/can I have it please...

I read the headline and was a-skeerd for a moment that DC was being cancelled. After a several year hiatus,
my husband and I are going this year - bringing our oldest son for his first Con ever. It should be a pretty cool
time.


We're bringing both kids (and my mother to watch them at night). Planning on a family Adventure Time cosplay. We brought our daughter for the last two years, and since she is a good little nerd/video game freak, she loved it.
 
2014-01-15 05:16:32 PM  
As a long-time con veteran (started going in the mid-80's and average around 10 a year still), I've seen just about every possible action and reaction from hotel management imaginable.

Basically, most hotels who have never deal with fandom before are a bit trepidatious about the event as they aren't really sure what to expect and don't really "get" the genre. However, once they do see what's going on - lots of room nights sold along with filled hotel bars and restaurants for the weekend - they almost always get behind the convention.

Some of the smarter hotels even allow their wait staff and bar staff to dress in costume (the Hyatt Regency at DragonCon as an example) which not only makes attendees feel welcome but also helps with higher tips for the staff.

But there are still a few hotel managers who are more concerned with the "image" of their property than seeing past the costumes and general freakiness to see the dollar signs. This is a prime example, and the Westin in question deserves all the derision they get.
 
2014-01-15 05:24:50 PM  

Winterlight: Some of the smarter hotels even allow their wait staff and bar staff to dress in costume (the Hyatt Regency at DragonCon as an example) which not only makes attendees feel welcome but also helps with higher tips for the staff.


THAT'S A HORRIBLE IDEA!!!

How the hell am I suppose to locate and get my beverage? Quick and repetitive drinks is key to my happiness. I don't think they want me to be asking every woman in cosplay for a refill.
 
2014-01-15 05:33:21 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: THAT'S A HORRIBLE IDEA!!!

How the hell am I suppose to locate and get my beverage? Quick and repetitive drinks is key to my happiness. I don't think they want me to be asking every woman in cosplay for a refill.


It actually works very well. They all have very visible name tags and they're easy to spot as they are the ones carrying trays of drinks back and forth constantly. A lot of desk clerks at the DragonCon hotels have also been getting into costume, which is pretty cool, too.
 
2014-01-15 05:33:56 PM  
if i was a hotel manager with a convention and the convention organisers came back to me and said that due to complaints they had updated their policies to specifically tell the attendees that sexual assault and unwanted advancement is specifically banned, i'd be worried about what i was getting myself into...
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-01-15 05:42:19 PM  
For the opposite of Winerlight's tales, read about Boskone from Hell. Do note that it is about a 27 year old event. Times change. Boskone only spent 15 years wandering in the wilderness and is back in its hometown.
 
2014-01-15 05:43:06 PM  

rjakobi: As Ashkuyun mentioned above, business conventions are way more destructive and less willing to pay for damages.  I think this is partially image-related, and partially entitlement. A bunch of geeks and nerds are generally much more considerate with the staff and space, even though they look wild.

This.

Business conventions may smell less of body odor and shattered dreams, but when it comes to drunken rampages and property damage, it's business conventions hands-down.

Though now I'm curious which comicon that tillerman35 had run afoul of.


It's not just business conventions, either.  There's a small sci-fi convention in Silicon Valley on Memorial Day weekend that always ends up sharing hotel space with a Catholic Charisma convention.  The sci-fi convention has never had issues with underage drinking, but I can't say the same about the Catholic Charisma convention.

Although my favorite story about simultaneous conventions has to be from about a year ago, when the San Jose Convention Center hosted a volleyball convention and a furry convention on the same weekend.
 
2014-01-15 06:02:08 PM  

Pocket Ninja: So the hotel lost $100,000 in business, and another hotel will get it.

What's the problem, again?


The con--which is a volunteer-run affair, not a business--will be losing any money it has already spent trying to put this event together.  They will have to refund a bunch of pre-paid memberships.  They may be able to salvage the even in 2015, and do well enough to be able to hold the next Chi-Fi, or they may not.  Most fan-run conventions are always operating on the margin of viability.  Sure, the commercial conventions are more profitable, but they're not the same experience at all.  They also are less likely to care about harassment.
 
2014-01-15 06:03:53 PM  

AspectRatio: Oh, no! The most materially privileged social demographic in history is being oppressed again!


By voluntarily choosing not to do business with a company that is unwilling to meet the requirements for their show?

You have an odd notion of what constitutes oppression.
 
2014-01-15 06:04:42 PM  

tlchwi02: if i was a hotel manager with a convention and the convention organisers came back to me and said that due to complaints they had updated their policies to specifically tell the attendees that sexual assault and unwanted advancement is specifically banned, i'd be worried about what i was getting myself into...


Nothing that hasn't been going on at all the business conventions and trade shows that you had been hosting, except that these people decided to stop tolerating it at their conventions.
 
2014-01-15 06:14:30 PM  

tillerman35: I've never been to a hotel and had the check-in clerk say "we apologize in advance for any inconvenience caused by the insurance agents' convention that's going on during your stay." I've heard apologies for the sci-fi/comic-book/whatever conventions going on plenty of times.


Perception is not reality.  The SF congoers may look weird, but the Shriners do far more damage and illegal activity.
 
2014-01-15 06:15:15 PM  
It likely had a lot to do with someone trying to dictate rules for the employees which undermines their employer's rules. If paid staff someplace gives you a problem, speak to management and have the problem resolved like normal people. Stop trying to preemptively control the situation because it won't work.There are times when not walking away isn't harassment because it's your damn job. The agreement would require them to walk away anytime someone said "no."

Also, if someone calls you names, they're only insulting your heroic identity, so you can be secure in that you're still special and perfect, and nothing bad has ever been said about you, ever.
 
2014-01-15 06:20:21 PM  

insertsnarkyusername: So they are asking the hotel to basically police the con and punish guests? That's a logistical nightmare that a lot of hotels would prefer to avoid. No matter what they do in any situation they are losing someone's business, even if that person is being an asshole.


No, cons have their own staff for enforcing con rules.  When the offending party won't leave, that is when they involve the hotel's security.  Most hotels understand the concept of a problem guest no longer being welcome at the event.
 
2014-01-15 06:21:59 PM  

flondrix: Perception is not reality.  The SF congoers may look weird, but the Shriners do far more damage and illegal activity.


This.

A group of people who often times spent much of their lives being shiat on by others, make other outsiders their family, and in general are very accepting of those outside of the "norm" take events like this to let loose with like minded people. They're there to have fun with others and since they don't spend their lives making trouble this non-trouble making continues to their fun times. I've never seen scifi/anime con goers be shait-heads in general. The worst you'll get are thousand-yard stares.
 
2014-01-15 06:48:17 PM  
I just object to calling these "comic" conventions or "scifi" conventions, when we all know they've all degenerated into cosplay conventions at this point.
 
2014-01-15 06:51:18 PM  

rjakobi: madgordy: back in the 80's I attended a few SciFi conventions, V-Con, NorwestCon and the like.  there was a contingent of Republican Jesus types who would walk in and accuse everyone of being Satanists, go through the merchant rooms and claim that every piece of merchandise was Satanic,  even crosses.   I recall walking up beside them and asking about Satanist discounts, or posting room numbers for black mass.

those were the days.

See, this is why you get several people cosplaying as Jesus on Sunday at the cons.


Republican Jesus, Free Trade Jesus, Liburul Jesus, and Furry Jesus riding a velociraptor?
 
2014-01-15 06:53:51 PM  

madgordy: Furry Jesus riding a velociraptor?


Would Furry Jesus be a groundhog?  (He walks out of his tomb, and if he sees his shadow...)
 
2014-01-15 07:13:54 PM  

madgordy: rjakobi: See, this is why you get several people cosplaying as Jesus on Sunday at the cons.

Republican Jesus, Free Trade Jesus, Liburul Jesus, and Furry Jesus riding a velociraptor?


Actually, there WAS the traditional Jumping Jesus on a Pogo Stick

img.fark.net
 
2014-01-15 07:25:20 PM  

madgordy: back in the 80's I attended a few SciFi conventions, V-Con, NorwestCon and the like.  there was a contingent of Republican Jesus types who would walk in and accuse everyone of being Satanists, go through the merchant rooms and claim that every piece of merchandise was Satanic,  even crosses.   I recall walking up beside them and asking about Satanist discounts, or posting room numbers for black mass.

those were the days.


A few years ago at a con, I saw a stack of Monopoly-style cards that said "Get out of Hell free".  I think they were meant to advertise someone's self-published novel, but my first thought was how entertaining it might be to hand those out at the Catholic Charisma convention.
 
2014-01-15 07:27:07 PM  

anfrind: rjakobi: As Ashkuyun mentioned above, business conventions are way more destructive and less willing to pay for damages.  I think this is partially image-related, and partially entitlement. A bunch of geeks and nerds are generally much more considerate with the staff and space, even though they look wild.

This.

Business conventions may smell less of body odor and shattered dreams, but when it comes to drunken rampages and property damage, it's business conventions hands-down.

Though now I'm curious which comicon that tillerman35 had run afoul of.

It's not just business conventions, either.  There's a small sci-fi convention in Silicon Valley on Memorial Day weekend that always ends up sharing hotel space with a Catholic Charisma convention.  The sci-fi convention has never had issues with underage drinking, but I can't say the same about the Catholic Charisma convention.

Although my favorite story about simultaneous conventions has to be from about a year ago, when the San Jose Convention Center hosted a volleyball convention and a furry convention on the same weekend.


That's Further Confusion, which is this weekend, and booked alongside the Volleyball tournament AND Hempcon.

This will be fun. (Table 56, FC Dealer's Room - come and say hi if you're going!).

flondrix: insertsnarkyusername: So they are asking the hotel to basically police the con and punish guests? That's a logistical nightmare that a lot of hotels would prefer to avoid. No matter what they do in any situation they are losing someone's business, even if that person is being an asshole.

No, cons have their own staff for enforcing con rules.  When the offending party won't leave, that is when they involve the hotel's security.  Most hotels understand the concept of a problem guest no longer being welcome at the event.


This, pretty much. I'm staff (very very minor staff, one step above a Gofur) at FC, and used to be staff at Califur. Both have different approaches to security - FC outsources to FLARE, a general-fandom supporting group, while Califur has CFAC (CaliFur Animal Control) which is 100% in-house - but both conventions have their security people and do their best to police the convention areas alongside and in support of the hotel's own security... which generally only have to be called if there's a larger issue that Con Security can't solve.

Califur has had a Code of Conduct as far back as I remember, and I know some conventions started picking that up recently. Didn't know Scalzi was behind a lot of that for the non-Furry ones; I'll have to drop him a line and thank him for that.

/Would have sworn that Anime Expo in LA had a Code of Conduct when I was going in 2004/2005
 
2014-01-15 07:29:19 PM  

flondrix: insertsnarkyusername: So they are asking the hotel to basically police the con and punish guests? That's a logistical nightmare that a lot of hotels would prefer to avoid. No matter what they do in any situation they are losing someone's business, even if that person is being an asshole.

No, cons have their own staff for enforcing con rules.  When the offending party won't leave, that is when they involve the hotel's security.  Most hotels understand the concept of a problem guest no longer being welcome at the event.


And sometimes they even help hour.  I can remember being at a con one time, and was walking past the pool, where there had apparently just been some excitement, where a kid had just slipped and had a cut or something.  The kid was being attended to by the head of Con security, who was dressed as a Klingon (at least the make-up.  He had the mandated staff shirt on so that people would know to go to him for help).  No idea if the kid was part of the con or not.
 
2014-01-15 08:25:52 PM  
Eh, I've seen it posted both ways here, but I'll throw my pointless 2 cents in with the 'behavior of the attendees could have been prohibitively bad, so much so that the hotel decided they did not want the business of the Con'.

I've seen smaller cons (couple hundred people) get specifically told 'if you bother the ducks, you are not coming back' and similar warnings about observing pool times, smoking areas, drinking, underage drinking, etc.

Nerds, when they break loose, tend to either remain the shut down type, or go completely ape shiat bonanzas crazy.  Con goers, especially the costumed kind, tend to be the more extroverted type to begin with. Adding them into a party atmosphere with drinks (possibly), etc. I could easily see leading to a hassle.

Or maybe the hotel has developed as reputation for being 'that kind' of place or something. I don't know.  Could just be they made an exceptionally shiatty business choice (I lean that way myself but thought I'd play devil's advocate).
 
2014-01-15 08:37:56 PM  

ongbok: The Stealth Hippopotamus: what a costume freak may look like

[img6.imageshack.us image 850x850]
[img21.imageshack.us image 630x960]

Too bad most o the women attending those conventions don't look like that, or the women that are featured in the pictures from the conventions that show up on the internet. Most of the women at those conventions are about 20-30 pounds, or more, heavier and trying to squeeze into a costume the size of the one the girl in your picture is wearing.


http://www.epbot.com/2013/05/is-this-what-respect-feels-like-real.ht ml
 
2014-01-15 08:52:23 PM  
Is Capricon still going on okay this year? Any Farkers going?
 
2014-01-15 09:16:11 PM  

quizzical: ongbok: The Stealth Hippopotamus: what a costume freak may look like

[img6.imageshack.us image 850x850]
[img21.imageshack.us image 630x960]

Too bad most o the women attending those conventions don't look like that, or the women that are featured in the pictures from the conventions that show up on the internet. Most of the women at those conventions are about 20-30 pounds, or more, heavier and trying to squeeze into a costume the size of the one the girl in your picture is wearing.

http://www.epbot.com/2013/05/is-this-what-respect-feels-like-real.ht ml


Yah, I'm a man and I would look ridiculous in some skimpy cos play outfit. That's part of the reason I don't dress up in one. And I'm certainly not going to be shocked if I get made fun of for a hairy back and moobs if I do.
 
2014-01-15 09:30:12 PM  
Chi-Fi?

More likely canceled because nobody there could get their stuff together.

More for Windycon and Capricon.
 
2014-01-15 09:33:25 PM  
I kind of thought we were past the calling people "freaks" phase here in the 21st century. Geeks, nerds, larpers, cosplayers and the like can be found everywhere. We generate tens of billions of dollars to the economy.

But somewhere along the line some manager at this hotel didn't get the memo. Cancelling a con isn't a decision that is made lightly, especially a first year con. This might well kill them, no matter what they say or do. They are cancelling contracts with their talent (authors, actors) and they have already spent thousands in promotion, travel etc.

As a merchant, I would have to cancel my hotel room (which sometimes can't be done if you used a site like hotwire). I would have scheduled time to get to and work the show. If cons are my second job, I would have asked for days off from my primary job. Can I get those days back? It's very unlikely I would be able to pick up another con at such short notice. What about my table fees? Will I get them back?

All of this because some dick at a hotel is uncomfortable with "costumed freaks". Let me say that this kind of attitude has become practically extinct in my experience. Hotels host all kinds of events and if you think geeks are somehow the worst type of customer you've never been to say, a dentists or funeral directors conference. Weddings? Holy shiat those things are ticking timebombs. In my experience hotel staff have actually gotten cooler over the years. Some of them really like these cons and get into the experience. When I went to Up in the Aether in Detroit I did a double take when I checked into the hotel. All the front desk staff were wearing clip on curly mustaches. Including the women. Hilarious.

So fark this guy.
 
2014-01-15 10:20:47 PM  

insertsnarkyusername: quizzical: ongbok: The Stealth Hippopotamus: what a costume freak may look like

[img6.imageshack.us image 850x850]
[img21.imageshack.us image 630x960]

Too bad most o the women attending those conventions don't look like that, or the women that are featured in the pictures from the conventions that show up on the internet. Most of the women at those conventions are about 20-30 pounds, or more, heavier and trying to squeeze into a costume the size of the one the girl in your picture is wearing.

http://www.epbot.com/2013/05/is-this-what-respect-feels-like-real.ht ml

Yah, I'm a man and I would look ridiculous in some skimpy cos play outfit. That's part of the reason I don't dress up in one. And I'm certainly not going to be shocked if I get made fun of for a hairy back and moobs if I do.


You gotta learn how to flaunt it.

That's what Man-Faye does.

i500.listal.com
The problem that a lot of women -- especially heavy-set women -- have with going cosplay is they're trying to be something they're not. They're trying to be thin and sexy and they know that's not what they are and everyone can see that, and that brings insecurity and self-consciousness. Is Man-Faye sexy? No, and he's not trying to be. His recognition of those limitations is what makes him so legendary. He is a parody of sexy cosplay.

A lot of women can do the same thing. You need to recognize the talents you have and use them. Go as what you are, not as an idealized version of what you want to be.
 
2014-01-15 11:43:03 PM  

insertsnarkyusername: This is also part of that statement. ""As we want to put the safety and enjoyment of our guests and attendees first, we requested that the hotel make changes to ensure that our attendees and guests be treated with the same respect as any other Westin hotel guests. By mutual decision, we agreed to part ways with the hotel.".

They don't mention what changes they asked the hotel to make. Not only that but the statement the hotel released basically says Chicon is full of shiat. Which is an odd move for a business, usually it's just easier to sack someone and say you changed. Not deny that the event actually happened.


Here's the anti-harassment policy in question, ripped from the con website:

"Harassment includes offensive verbal comments related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race, religion, or dress, sexual images in public spaces, deliberate intimidation, stalking, following, harassing photography or recording, sustained disruption of talks or other events, inappropriate physical contact, and unwelcome sexual attention. Participants asked to stop any harassing behavior are expected to comply immediately."

As you can see, it goes quite a bit further than the any corporation which has to deal with the general public would ever agree to. Not only does it invoke inherent contradiction (sexual expression, yes! sexual images, no!), but it create categories no court would allow for special treatment (body size) and imagined offense (harassing photography). Agreeing to that is just asking for lawsuits from every direction.
 
2014-01-15 11:44:59 PM  
Okay.  Booking at Westin hotels, added to list of NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

Not just personal visits, also professional ones.  Yeah, not a huge amount of money, but it's corporate money they will *never* get.  Thank your local idiots, Westin corporate.
 
2014-01-16 12:55:33 AM  

Summercat: anfrind: rjakobi: As Ashkuyun mentioned above, business conventions are way more destructive and less willing to pay for damages.  I think this is partially image-related, and partially entitlement. A bunch of geeks and nerds are generally much more considerate with the staff and space, even though they look wild.

This.

Business conventions may smell less of body odor and shattered dreams, but when it comes to drunken rampages and property damage, it's business conventions hands-down.

Though now I'm curious which comicon that tillerman35 had run afoul of.

It's not just business conventions, either.  There's a small sci-fi convention in Silicon Valley on Memorial Day weekend that always ends up sharing hotel space with a Catholic Charisma convention.  The sci-fi convention has never had issues with underage drinking, but I can't say the same about the Catholic Charisma convention.

Although my favorite story about simultaneous conventions has to be from about a year ago, when the San Jose Convention Center hosted a volleyball convention and a furry convention on the same weekend.

That's Further Confusion, which is this weekend, and booked alongside the Volleyball tournament AND Hempcon.

This will be fun. (Table 56, FC Dealer's Room - come and say hi if you're going!).


I considered going last year only because Ursula Vernon was guest of honor, but I gave up when I couldn't find out if she'd be doing book-signings (I later found out that book-signings were on Friday, when I had to work).  I probably won't go this year either, but I'll probably be passing through downtown on Saturday morning, so maybe I'll just peek inside to see how creeped out the volleyball players and their parents look.

/Ursula Vernon will be at BayCon this year
 
2014-01-16 01:19:31 AM  

gerrymander: insertsnarkyusername: This is also part of that statement. ""As we want to put the safety and enjoyment of our guests and attendees first, we requested that the hotel make changes to ensure that our attendees and guests be treated with the same respect as any other Westin hotel guests. By mutual decision, we agreed to part ways with the hotel.".

They don't mention what changes they asked the hotel to make. Not only that but the statement the hotel released basically says Chicon is full of shiat. Which is an odd move for a business, usually it's just easier to sack someone and say you changed. Not deny that the event actually happened.

Here's the anti-harassment policy in question, ripped from the con website:

"Harassment includes offensive verbal comments related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race, religion, or dress, sexual images in public spaces, deliberate intimidation, stalking, following, harassing photography or recording, sustained disruption of talks or other events, inappropriate physical contact, and unwelcome sexual attention. Participants asked to stop any harassing behavior are expected to comply immediately."

As you can see, it goes quite a bit further than the any corporation which has to deal with the general public would ever agree to. Not only does it invoke inherent contradiction (sexual expression, yes! sexual images, no!), but it create categories no court would allow for special treatment (body size) and imagined offense (harassing photography). Agreeing to that is just asking for lawsuits from every direction.


Your reading comprehension is lacking.

First of all, gender expression != sexual expression.  Sci-fi and fantasy fandoms tend to attract a disproportionate number of people who are often ostracized for being "different", including but not limited to a disproportionate number of transgendered individuals.  You can't make offensive comments based on someone's gender identity, nor can you make uninvited lewd comments to members of the opposite sex.

Second, people of unusual body size are NOT asking for special treatment (aside from the usual things required by the ADA).  The rule simply states that you can't make insulting comments about someone's weight.

Third, harassing photography is not nearly as vague as you seem to think.  It's widely accepted that photographers should ask permission before taking photos (unless consent is clearly implied, e.g. if the subject is part of a parade), and that they do not photograph people who ask not to be photographed.


In other words, don't be a dick.
 
2014-01-16 03:04:04 AM  

anfrind: First of all, gender expression != sexual expression.  Sci-fi and fantasy fandoms tend to attract a disproportionate number of people who are often ostracized for being "different", including but not limited to a disproportionate number of transgendered individuals.  You can't make offensive comments based on someone's gender identity, nor can you make uninvited lewd comments to members of the opposite sex.

Second, people of unusual body size are NOT asking for special treatment (aside from the usual things required by the ADA).  The rule simply states that you can't make insulting comments about someone's weight.

Third, harassing photography is not nearly as vague as you seem to think.  It's widely accepted that photographers should ask permission before taking photos (unless consent is clearly implied, e.g. if the subject is part of a parade), and that they do not photograph people who ask not to be photographed.


In other words, don't be a dick.


My reading comprehension is fine. A policy which allows (e.g.) Jessica Nigri to cosplay but bans a vendor from displaying pictures of Jessica Nigri in cosplay is fundamentally broken. Fat people are legally no more immune to criticism than frat boys. Photography in events open to photographers must meet legal obligations, of which 'asking permission' is not generally one.

I understand the goals of the anti-harassment policy. I also recognize that they cannot be enforced in ways that impact non-attendees without exposing a hotel to lawsuits. Not enforced by the hotel, not enforced by the con staff. So, that jackass that says, "Check out Jabba the Hutt wearing a Leia bikini!" and takes a picture may be a dick, but he's a dick who will have grounds to file suit if prevented from using his room or the other public hotel facilities if ejected from the hotel by con staff.

"Don't be a dick" is an Internet meme, not controlling legislation.
 
2014-01-16 04:48:35 AM  
the truth hurts sometimes.
 
2014-01-16 05:58:16 AM  

gerrymander: anfrind: First of all, gender expression != sexual expression.  Sci-fi and fantasy fandoms tend to attract a disproportionate number of people who are often ostracized for being "different", including but not limited to a disproportionate number of transgendered individuals.  You can't make offensive comments based on someone's gender identity, nor can you make uninvited lewd comments to members of the opposite sex.

Second, people of unusual body size are NOT asking for special treatment (aside from the usual things required by the ADA).  The rule simply states that you can't make insulting comments about someone's weight.

Third, harassing photography is not nearly as vague as you seem to think.  It's widely accepted that photographers should ask permission before taking photos (unless consent is clearly implied, e.g. if the subject is part of a parade), and that they do not photograph people who ask not to be photographed.


In other words, don't be a dick.

My reading comprehension is fine. A policy which allows (e.g.) Jessica Nigri to cosplay but bans a vendor from displaying pictures of Jessica Nigri in cosplay is fundamentally broken. Fat people are legally no more immune to criticism than frat boys. Photography in events open to photographers must meet legal obligations, of which 'asking permission' is not generally one.

I understand the goals of the anti-harassment policy. I also recognize that they cannot be enforced in ways that impact non-attendees without exposing a hotel to lawsuits. Not enforced by the hotel, not enforced by the con staff. So, that jackass that says, "Check out Jabba the Hutt wearing a Leia bikini!" and takes a picture may be a dick, but he's a dick who will have grounds to file suit if prevented from using his room or the other public hotel facilities if ejected from the hotel by con staff.

"Don't be a dick" is an Internet meme, not controlling legislation.


1) I don't think displaying a picture of Jessica Nigri in cosplay as a regular photo would be harassment, unless this person has indicated they didnt' want it.

2) This isn't for removing them from the hotel, but removing their conbadge and banning them from convention-only areas. In California, that just means you can't go into any function rooms, apparently elsewhere that also includes the lobby for social purposes. In either case, the convention is not asking the hotel to remove the person from the room. And seeing as you agreed to this policy when receiving your conbadge, you don't have room to complain.

As a convention is not a government, they can make up any and all sorts of protected classes and say "Don't harass these people".
 
2014-01-16 07:13:55 AM  

gerrymander: insertsnarkyusername: This is also part of that statement. ""As we want to put the safety and enjoyment of our guests and attendees first, we requested that the hotel make changes to ensure that our attendees and guests be treated with the same respect as any other Westin hotel guests. By mutual decision, we agreed to part ways with the hotel.".

They don't mention what changes they asked the hotel to make. Not only that but the statement the hotel released basically says Chicon is full of shiat. Which is an odd move for a business, usually it's just easier to sack someone and say you changed. Not deny that the event actually happened.

Here's the anti-harassment policy in question, ripped from the con website:

"Harassment includes offensive verbal comments related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race, religion, or dress, sexual images in public spaces, deliberate intimidation, stalking, following, harassing photography or recording, sustained disruption of talks or other events, inappropriate physical contact, and unwelcome sexual attention. Participants asked to stop any harassing behavior are expected to comply immediately."

As you can see, it goes quite a bit further than the any corporation which has to deal with the general public would ever agree to. Not only does it invoke inherent contradiction (sexual expression, yes! sexual images, no!), but it create categories no court would allow for special treatment (body size) and imagined offense (harassing photography). Agreeing to that is just asking for lawsuits from every direction.


Bzzt.

Westin/Starwood corporate agreed to this and even offered to move them to a new hotel (the con organizers decided there wasn't enough time).

If you manage a branch and corporate agrees to a contract, I can guarantee that you're not doing it out of liability concerns.

TFA links to the real article which links to the FB page of the Westin in question. The comments there have a few more details including the the letters sent between Chi-Fi and the Westin.
 
2014-01-16 10:27:42 AM  

gerrymander: imagined offense (harassing photography)


Harassing photography is not an imagined offense.
 
2014-01-16 10:53:39 AM  

Ant: ongbok: Most of the women at those conventions are about 20-30 pounds, or more, heavier and trying to squeeze into a costume the size of the one the girl in your picture is wearing.

OMG! They should be banned from showing themselves in public! They should live in shame!


Exactly! See? You get it.
 
2014-01-16 11:14:35 AM  
ITT: Nice guys.  Talking about how they can never find a hot chick to play dress up for them.

So therefore, any hot chick playing dress up == whore.

Nice Guy QED.

/I'm glad my love will dress up for me.
 
2014-01-16 11:17:23 AM  

flondrix: gerrymander: imagined offense (harassing photography)

Harassing photography is not an imagined offense.



There is no such thing as harassing photography so long as you aren't shooting photos up someones skirt or through their clothing, and the person you are taking photos of is in public.

If you intend to make a profit off the photos, you should have a consent form signed by the model.  You do not need consent forms for well known public figures as the law says they have no expectation of privacy while in public in that manner (so we can keep our paparazzi).

/thats the law. Like it or not.
 
2014-01-16 11:58:43 AM  

fluffy2097: flondrix: gerrymander: imagined offense (harassing photography)

Harassing photography is not an imagined offense.


There is no such thing as harassing photography so long as you aren't shooting photos up someones skirt or through their clothing, and the person you are taking photos of is in public.

If you intend to make a profit off the photos, you should have a consent form signed by the model.  You do not need consent forms for well known public figures as the law says they have no expectation of privacy while in public in that manner (so we can keep our paparazzi).

/thats the law. Like it or not.


Convention rules can and do go beyond what is required by law.  It's pathetic how many armchair lawyers fail to realize that.
 
2014-01-16 12:06:05 PM  

anfrind: fluffy2097: flondrix: gerrymander: imagined offense (harassing photography)

Harassing photography is not an imagined offense.


There is no such thing as harassing photography so long as you aren't shooting photos up someones skirt or through their clothing, and the person you are taking photos of is in public.

If you intend to make a profit off the photos, you should have a consent form signed by the model.  You do not need consent forms for well known public figures as the law says they have no expectation of privacy while in public in that manner (so we can keep our paparazzi).

/thats the law. Like it or not.

Convention rules can and do go beyond what is required by law.  It's pathetic how many armchair lawyers fail to realize that.


The convention can have whatever rules it wants, just don't expect the hotel to be the enforcer of those rules.
 
2014-01-16 12:16:00 PM  

insertsnarkyusername: There is no such thing as harassing photography so long as you aren't shooting photos up someones skirt or through their clothing, and the person you are taking photos of is in public.

If you intend to make a profit off the photos, you should have a consent form signed by the model. You do not need consent forms for well known public figures as the law says they have no expectation of privacy while in public in that manner (so we can keep our paparazzi).

/thats the law. Like it or not.

Convention rules can and do go beyond what is required by law. It's pathetic how many armchair lawyers fail to realize that.

The convention can have whatever rules it wants, just don't expect the hotel to be the enforcer of those rules.


The convention is a private function, being held in a (rented) private place.  It can have its own rules, and invite or dis-invite people as it sees fit.  The rules are enforced by Con security, who will if necessary seek the help of hotel security in evicting a person who is no longer welcome at the private function.  In most cases, the convention will refund the offender's membership fee and consider it money well spent.  It's no different than if someone had rented the hotel for a wedding and a drunken uncle began getting too friendly with the flower girls.
 
2014-01-16 12:22:42 PM  

anfrind: /Ursula Vernon will be at BayCon this year


I apparently am now friends with people that know/have known her *personaly*. Words cannot contain my envy for them.

/Really really need to buy the Digger books.
//One of the best comics I have EVER read.
 
2014-01-16 12:28:11 PM  

flondrix: insertsnarkyusername: There is no such thing as harassing photography so long as you aren't shooting photos up someones skirt or through their clothing, and the person you are taking photos of is in public.

If you intend to make a profit off the photos, you should have a consent form signed by the model. You do not need consent forms for well known public figures as the law says they have no expectation of privacy while in public in that manner (so we can keep our paparazzi).

/thats the law. Like it or not.

Convention rules can and do go beyond what is required by law. It's pathetic how many armchair lawyers fail to realize that.

The convention can have whatever rules it wants, just don't expect the hotel to be the enforcer of those rules.

The convention is a private function, being held in a (rented) private place.  It can have its own rules, and invite or dis-invite people as it sees fit.  The rules are enforced by Con security, who will if necessary seek the help of hotel security in evicting a person who is no longer welcome at the private function.  In most cases, the convention will refund the offender's membership fee and consider it money well spent.  It's no different than if someone had rented the hotel for a wedding and a drunken uncle began getting too friendly with the flower girls.


Of course, nobody is going to argue that hotel security isn't going to remove someone that is molesty, violent or incredibly intoxicated. However the hotel doesn't really give a shiat if someone made a snarky comment that hurt someone's feelings or took a picture of a costume without asking permission. There was always a level of involvement for the hotel security in an event like this. The hotel obviously decided that it didn't want to deal with all the extra stuff that the anti-harassment policy contained or this wouldn't have been an issue. Hell the statement the con put out even said that the hotel wouldn't make changes in their policy. Frankly the anti-harrassment policy shouldn't have been brought to the hotel. It should have been given to the con goers with the understanding that if asked to leave and you don't you are now trespassing which is a legitimate reason to then involve hotel security and even law enforcement should you physically resist.
 
2014-01-16 01:10:26 PM  

Felgraf: anfrind: /Ursula Vernon will be at BayCon this year

I apparently am now friends with people that know/have known her *personaly*. Words cannot contain my envy for them.

/Really really need to buy the Digger books.
//One of the best comics I have EVER read.


Have you read her short story "Jackalope Wives" yet?

http://www.apex-magazine.com/jackalope-wives/
 
2014-01-16 03:40:48 PM  

flondrix: The convention is a private function, being held in a (rented) private place.  It can have its own rules, and invite or dis-invite people as it sees fit.  The rules are enforced by Con security, who will if necessary seek the help of hotel security in evicting a person who is no longer welcome at the private function.  In most cases, the convention will refund the offender's membership fee and consider it money well spent.  It's no different than if someone had rented the hotel for a wedding and a drunken uncle began getting too friendly with the flower girls.


It's really not any different from Fark.  And I agree with you. It's part of the whole "right to refuse service" Con security could kick someone out, even for something someone did on public property, because it's a private event. The asshole could still stand outside on the sidewalk taking photos though, as long as they stay off hotel property.
 
2014-01-16 03:52:56 PM  
Hehehe Sci-Fi convention has a hard time with staff not being accepting?

You should try going to a swinger convention :P
 
2014-01-16 04:59:02 PM  

2wolves: The ghost of Disclave still haunts the halls of the New Carrollton Ramada.


I think I have a pair of shoes that are still wet.
 
2014-01-16 05:12:23 PM  

fluffy2097: If you intend to make a profit off the photos, you should have a consent form signed by the model.


It's called a model release.

How do I know when I need a model release?

"Profit" is not a determining factor.   COMMERCE is.   If the photo is used to create a commercial product (EG a calendar or a tee shirt), or is used to further a commercial interest (IE advertising), then you need a release.   If you are just selling art prints, using it for editorial purposes or news reporting, a release is NOT required.   

Most pro photographers get a release anyway even when they don't technically need them because it's cheap anti-lawsuit insurance.   My release, for instance, has a clause that lets me recover attorney's fees if someone I photographed ever gets a bug up their ass and decides to try and sue me.
 
2014-01-16 05:14:30 PM  
A couple of years ago I was at DragonCon w/ my husband and there were these two smoking hot Asian chicks
in full-on cosplay regalia. This creepy guy comes up, hands me his digital camera and asks if I mind taking his
picture with the fair ladies. They said it was fine, so I did. He thanked me and left.

Afterward, my husband says to me, "You know he's just going to go back to his hotel room and jerk off to those
pictures, right?"

I felt like a creepy enabler after that...
 
2014-01-16 05:27:00 PM  

Summercat: As a convention is not a government, they can make up any and all sorts of protected classes and say "Don't harass these people".


And a court is under no obligation not biatchslap you if someone gets pissy and files a lawsuit, especially if your rule conflicts with real law.   You can put any shiat you want in a contract.   Just don't expect the court to enforce it if the other party calls you on it.

You're free to have a convention that has a "no Jews" rule.   You can even try to enforce it.   You'll get your balls sued off, but you can have your rule written down and make yourself feel all empowered and shiat.
 
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