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(The Daily Beast)   The lawyer for the ex-cop who shot and killed a man in a Florida movie theater may use the Stand Your Ground defense because the victim "threw an unknown object" at the defendant. That "object?" It was likely popcorn   (thedailybeast.com) divider line 1007
    More: Followup, Chad Oulson, florida, Case CRC1400216CFA, Busch Gardens  
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6562 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Jan 2014 at 11:31 AM (35 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-15 04:11:29 PM

ManRay: Calm down. You can claim SYG or insanity or whatever defense your slimy lawyer can come up with. It does not mean you are getting off scott free. There is a judge or jury or both that have to agree you proved your case before that happens.


Hell, I bet murderers have been claiming 'self defense' since the dawn of man. I think it's funny that people are acting like SYG is something new that the criminals will get to exploit. Criminals always lie and make excuses for their actions, they get convicted when there isn't evidence to support their claims. This has been happening since the very beginning.
 
2014-01-15 04:12:33 PM

redmid17: Pathman: redmid17: Crime of passion is more or less an insanity defense. The suddenness of the rage is the critical aspect.

which i would argue probably applies here...not a defense in any way, mind you, to get him off - but more to establish motive.  i doubt the dude was calm-cool-collect about it.  i suspect he just snapped....even if he did go get the car i tihnk he was seeing red more than blue.  the entire discussion started because the term "cold-blooded" was used.

maybe that's exactly what he is...i think he's just a hateful nut who snapped.  either way i guess it doesn't matter.

I don't think you can really argue that. He was asked the texter to stop. He tried to get a manager and couldn't. People in the article said he came back angry. They argued for several more minutes. Texter through popcorn at him, and then he shot the guy. That's pretty much the opposite of sudden.


He shot the guy.  It's not like he (the murderer) merely threw a punch at him.  If that doesn't say "nut" to you, then I don't know what to tell you.
 
2014-01-15 04:13:17 PM

Deathfrogg: People rarely "just snap". This murder comes from a lifetime of being a cop who had felt entitled to "respect" based on the presence of a badge and the corresponding license to kill that comes with it, and then being disrespected for being the self-appointed "law of the theater". This guy was building up to something like this, probably for years.


I don't know that being a cop had anything to do with it.  As in, I don't think being a cop makes you a person entitled to want respect, rather I think being the kinda person who wants to be entitled to respect makes you want to be a cop.

/my own wild speculation
 
2014-01-15 04:13:41 PM

Deathfrogg: Pathman: redmid17: Crime of passion is more or less an insanity defense. The suddenness of the rage is the critical aspect.

which i would argue probably applies here...not a defense in any way, mind you, to get him off - but more to establish motive.  i doubt the dude was calm-cool-collect about it.  i suspect he just snapped....even if he did go get the car i tihnk he was seeing red more than blue.  the entire discussion started because the term "cold-blooded" was used.

maybe that's exactly what he is...i think he's just a hateful nut who snapped.  either way i guess it doesn't matter.

People rarely "just snap". This murder comes from a lifetime of being a cop who had felt entitled to "respect" based on the presence of a badge and the corresponding license to kill that comes with it, and then being disrespected for being the self-appointed "law of the theater". This guy was building up to something like this, probably for years.

What he was, was a demented, elderly self-entitled prick with a chip on his shoulder and a handgun in his pocket that he was itching to use. He's no different from the WW1 Vet I used to live next door to when I was a kid, who would chase the neighborhood kids away from his yard with a shovel every time they got too close to his fence. If a ball or a frisbee went over that fence, it was flat out gone, and every kid who lived within four blocks knew it.


yeah... such a shame
 
2014-01-15 04:14:06 PM
crzybtch:   Well now that you so KINDLY asked, the only time I do go to a movie is to take a 9 year old kid whose mom died of ovarian cancer.  But since you are adamant about things, why not go out and punch an old lady for no reason then go home and kick your dog Mr. Sunshine..

I might just do that...

But you should say positive, just think of all the money you're saving not buying that third ticket and extra crap at the concession stand.
 
2014-01-15 04:14:32 PM
Because the subject has been referenced, I believe that this is appropriate:

Two popular narratives of the confrontation between Mr. Zimmerman and Mr. Martin exist.

In the "pro Zimmerman" narrative, Mr. Martin was actively casing a neighborhood in search of homes that he could easily burglarize and, while burglarizing, smoke marijuana cigarettes, have sexual relations with white women and use Skittles™ and a watermelon-flavoured beverage to create "purple drank". Mr. Zimmerman noticed Mr. Martin's clear and suspicious actions and, being a dutiful citizen, called the police to report the incident. After stepping outside of his vehicle to confirm his suspicions, lest he be mistaken (not wishing to summon the police should Mr. Martin actually be innocent), he was suddenly confronted with the 350lb Mr. Martin (all of that weight being muscle mass) whereupon he was pinned to the ground and struck repeatedly. He begged Mr. Martin to cease, attempting to use reason with his attacker at first, and resorted to deadly force only when Mr. Martin's refusal to cease violence (likely due to him being high on several drugs) was obvious.


In the "anti Zimmerman" narrative, Mr. Martin was returning home after volunteering at a homeless shelter for the previous sixteen hours. Mr. Zimmerman, seeking an opportunity to commit murder against an innocent black child, first contacted the police to establish a plausible justification for his premeditated crime, then -- despite a direct and lawful order by the police to remain in his vehicle -- stepped outside and deliberately followed Mr. Martin, preventing the youth from reaching his home. He held Mr. Martin at gunpoint, forced the boy to his knees, demanded that Mr. Martin refer to himself as "Toby", and then he fatally shot Mr. Martin. He then used the dying Mr. Martin's fists to strike himself in the face repeatedly, before slamming his head into the sidewalk in order to create the "injuries" that supposedly justified his use of force.
 
2014-01-15 04:15:18 PM

lennavan: Deathfrogg: People rarely "just snap". This murder comes from a lifetime of being a cop who had felt entitled to "respect" based on the presence of a badge and the corresponding license to kill that comes with it, and then being disrespected for being the self-appointed "law of the theater". This guy was building up to something like this, probably for years.

I don't know that being a cop had anything to do with it.  As in, I don't think being a cop makes you a person entitled to want respect, rather I think being the kinda person who wants to be entitled to respect makes you want to be a cop.

/my own wild speculation


You've never encountered a cop with a hangover or an itchy ass or a leftover high school toughguy attitude have you.
 
2014-01-15 04:16:38 PM

pyrotek85: ManRay: Calm down. You can claim SYG or insanity or whatever defense your slimy lawyer can come up with. It does not mean you are getting off scott free. There is a judge or jury or both that have to agree you proved your case before that happens.

Hell, I bet murderers have been claiming 'self defense' since the dawn of man. I think it's funny that people are acting like SYG is something new that the criminals will get to exploit. Criminals always lie and make excuses for their actions, they get convicted when there isn't evidence to support their claims. This has been happening since the very beginning.


Fn' A!
 
2014-01-15 04:17:41 PM

Dimensio: Because the subject has been referenced, I believe that this is appropriate:


That's probably the biggest waste of text I've ever seen.  You owe the internet 4 kilobytes.
 
2014-01-15 04:18:46 PM
The lawyer did not read the theater ticket stub. "Stand your ground is not honored  during the first two nights, holidays or special, limited engagements."
 
2014-01-15 04:19:53 PM

The Name: Dimensio: Because the subject has been referenced, I believe that this is appropriate:

That's probably the biggest waste of text I've ever seen.  You owe the internet 4 kilobytes.


It's not even the biggest wall of text in the thread.
 
2014-01-15 04:21:52 PM

The Name: Dimensio: Because the subject has been referenced, I believe that this is appropriate:

That's probably the biggest waste of text I've ever seen.  You owe the internet 4 kilobytes.


Oh come now, it was worth it just for demanded that Mr. Martin refer to himself as "Toby",
 
2014-01-15 04:22:48 PM

scroufus: Mr.BobDobalita:

I never said he should have been home because of his age or because of a curfew or something.  If he was "being stalked" or "scared of the creepy ass cracker" he should have went to his home that was 20 seconds away.  He should have called the police.  He should have called his father.  He, however was NOT scared.  He said as much to Dee Dee.  He told her he wasnt' going to run.  People keep saying "GZ shouldn't have been out of his car" but fail to put any responsibility on TM for not going to his house or getting help if he supposedly was afraid.  It's because he wasnt' afraid and he confronted GZ.
And I"m 6' 175lbs.  I -guarantee- if I hit you in the face you would know and it would hurt.   It's not like he was some 100lb 13 year old.  He was FULL GROWN MAN SIZED.
 
You are telling me a kid didnt make the right choice?  Like that never happens?  He was a kid after all.  You can say full grown man sized all you want but he was still a kid.  He wasnt old enough to enlist not old enough to vote not old enough to date a woman that is past 20.  That makes him a kid.    You putting responsibility on a 17 year old is not only dumb but just plain retarded.  Very few teenagers are responsible.   Would you run if someone kept messing with you?  He was probably taught to handle your business if someone if messing with you. And you handle it with your fist not a gun.  I like how people say about him being grown man sized.  Well Zimzam is a grown man and he should have been able to fight some one who is grown man sized and if you lose you lose. I highly doubt a 17 year old kid could beat a man to death bare handed.     Yea any person that clocks you right in the face you are gonna feel it.   You can say oh he should have just went home same goes for zimzam he should have just stayed in his car.   Zimzam is an Adult and should have known better.  That was not his job to go and follow someone that he suspect is a criminal because you are suppose to be innocent ...



LoL.. you just talked in a huge circle.   THe point of my post was that anyone can say the same thing about TM as you say about GZ.   "He shouldn't have been there so it was his fault".    Well that goes for BOTH of them.

Look, I'm not saying GZ is some saint... but I can put myself in his shoes.   I've been over to the neighbor's house when I couldn't reach them on the cell phone when I saw a plain white van back in behind their house and people going in and out...    I went over and I saw that it was a guy working on his wood floors...   are you suggesting that I would be irresponsible and it would be partly my fault if the guy attacked me and I shot him dead?   

Where I come from, you're a good neighbor and check those things out.  The cops won't come out for that kind of thing and you shouldn't bother them with it anyway.

Anyways, my point was that in this case, it seems like mistakes were made on BOTH sides...   GZ and TM...   but the bottom line is no matter how much you want him to have been convicted of a crime, HE COMMITTED NO CRIME and was NOT GUILTY.  Sorry.   That's the way the cookie crumbles.
 
2014-01-15 04:22:58 PM

Pathman: redmid17: Pathman: redmid17: Crime of passion is more or less an insanity defense. The suddenness of the rage is the critical aspect.

which i would argue probably applies here...not a defense in any way, mind you, to get him off - but more to establish motive.  i doubt the dude was calm-cool-collect about it.  i suspect he just snapped....even if he did go get the car i tihnk he was seeing red more than blue.  the entire discussion started because the term "cold-blooded" was used.

maybe that's exactly what he is...i think he's just a hateful nut who snapped.  either way i guess it doesn't matter.

I don't think you can really argue that. He was asked the texter to stop. He tried to get a manager and couldn't. People in the article said he came back angry. They argued for several more minutes. Texter through popcorn at him, and then he shot the guy. That's pretty much the opposite of sudden.

that's all true.  i'm just saying maybe he didn't intend to shoot that guy until the point when he lost it and shot the guy.
you know what i mean?


Oh I'm sure he didn't intend on shooting the guy. We both agree on that. I'm just saying a crime of passion theoretically requires a normal state of mind transformed instantly into a bling rage. The guy might have worked up to a blind rage but he was clearly angry before he got there.
 
2014-01-15 04:23:21 PM
This Zimmerman business is silly. There's a lot of difference between attacking a guy and throwing popcorn at a guy.
 
2014-01-15 04:25:29 PM

Facetious_Speciest: This Zimmerman business is silly. There's a lot of difference between attacking a guy and throwing popcorn at a guy.


Throwing popcorn can be a kind of an attack.

/An ineffective kind, not warranting a response of deadly force.
 
2014-01-15 04:26:20 PM

Farker Soze: The Name: Dimensio: Because the subject has been referenced, I believe that this is appropriate:

That's probably the biggest waste of text I've ever seen.  You owe the internet 4 kilobytes.

Oh come now, it was worth it just for demanded that Mr. Martin refer to himself as "Toby",


A confession: the entire post was created specifically as an excuse to use that phrase.
 
2014-01-15 04:27:50 PM

Dimensio: Because the subject has been referenced, I believe that this is appropriate:

He held Mr. Martin at gunpoint, forced the boy to his knees, demanded that Mr. Martin refer to himself as "Toby", and then he fatally shot Mr. Martin.


Wow... nice touch...     >.<      It's the details that matter...          killin me!   :D
 
2014-01-15 04:28:36 PM

Dimensio: scroufus: justtray: Latinwolf: You mean like all those GZ supporters who claimed that Martin was up to no good that night, ready to do a burglary?

I think he meant the people that said things like, "GZ stalked and murdered that kid," despite only evidence to the contrary.

Since GZ didn't have to prove anything, it really didn't matter at all what Martin's motives were or what he was doing. Only the actions that he took that led to his lawful death.

But if I remember your rage from those threads, I'm pretty sure you don't want to dig this back up right now. It's not a winning proposition for you.

You mean Zimzam wasnt told by 911 dispatchers not to follow him and to stay in his car and wait for police?  I forgot that didnt happen.  If he would have listen to them then Martin would have had to deal with the police instead of being shot because Zimzam couldnt beat up a 17 year old kid.

The actual statement was that Mr. Zimmerman did not need to follow Mr. Martin, rather than explicit instruction not to do so. Mr. Zimmerman claimed that he was already outside of his vehicle and a substantial distance away when that statement was made to him, and that he prepared to return to his vehicle after the call terminated.

Whether the statement is false is unproven; even the prosecution admitted an inability to disprove Mr. Zimmerman's assertion.


About two minutes into the call, Zimmerman said, "he's running".[17] The dispatcher asked, "He's running? Which way is he running?"[66] Noises on the tape at this point have been interpreted by some media outlets as the sound of a car door chime, possibly indicating Zimmerman opened his car door.[67] Zimmerman followed Martin, eventually losing sight of him.[17] The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him. When Zimmerman answered, "yeah", the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "Okay."[68] Zimmerman asked that police call him upon their arrival so he could provide his location.[17] Zimmerman ended the call at 7:15 p.m

Once again he called the police no need to get out the car. The police were notified.  Yes there had been some burglaries in the area but that is not Zimzams job.  That is the police's job.
 
2014-01-15 04:29:30 PM

willfullyobscure: This is another GREAT example of responsible defensive loadouts. A .380 was the perfect choice for this situation- if Rambo over there had had a high powered handgun like a Glock 17 or a .45 and non frangible rounds(which are the norm) instead, and he'd missed, it would have gone through a couple of seatbacks and still be a danger.

Hell, it could have gone right through Popcorn as well, although even a coated 9MM is pretty spent after traveling through a corpus.

The .380 would have stopped in the next movie seat; and it stopped the threat too. Perfect choice for self-defense carry. Lots of cops have seen what overpowered loads can do indoors, and they're actually the main audience for frangible rounds in their service weapons right now. It'd be nice to see some more of that common-sense attitude filter out to the shooting/defensive carry community at large


That .380 went through the wife's hand before it killed her husband.

/lethal weapons are lethal -don't trivialize even a .22
 
2014-01-15 04:31:02 PM

Deathfrogg: lennavan: Deathfrogg: People rarely "just snap". This murder comes from a lifetime of being a cop who had felt entitled to "respect" based on the presence of a badge and the corresponding license to kill that comes with it, and then being disrespected for being the self-appointed "law of the theater". This guy was building up to something like this, probably for years.

I don't know that being a cop had anything to do with it.  As in, I don't think being a cop makes you a person entitled to want respect, rather I think being the kinda person who wants to be entitled to respect makes you want to be a cop.

/my own wild speculation

You've never encountered a cop with a hangover or an itchy ass or a leftover high school toughguy attitude have you.


Reading comprehension is a lost art.
 
2014-01-15 04:32:07 PM

redmid17: Oh I'm sure he didn't intend on shooting the guy. We both agree on that. I'm just saying a crime of passion theoretically requires a normal state of mind transformed instantly into a bling rage. The guy might have worked up to a blind rage but he was clearly angry before he got there.


no doubt.  i'd say he's been angry for years
 
2014-01-15 04:34:01 PM

scroufus: About two minutes into the call, Zimmerman said, "he's running".[17] The dispatcher asked, "He's running? Which way is he running?"[66] Noises on the tape at this point have been interpreted by some media outlets as the sound of a car door chime, possibly indicating Zimmerman opened his car door.[67] Zimmerman followed Martin, eventually losing sight of him.[17] The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him. When Zimmerman answered, "yeah", the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "Okay."[68] Zimmerman asked that police call him upon their arrival so he could provide his location.[17] Zimmerman ended the call at 7:15 p.mOnce again he called the police no need to get out the car.

The police were notified.  Yes there had been some burglaries in the area but that is not Zimzams job.  That is the police's job.


Based upon the description that you provided, Mr. Zimmerman was already out of his vehicle at the time that the dispatcher stated that following Mr. Martin was not necessary. Mr. Zimmerman claimed that, after the call terminated, he attempted to return to his vehicle and was intercepted by Mr. Martin en route. As I noted, the prosecution was not able to disprove this claim (which, of course, is not proof that the claim is true).

Such a narrative implies that Mr. Zimmerman made poor choices in attempting to follow Mr. Martin (before being advised that doing so was unnecessary), but those choices alone did not warrant a physical attack from Mr. Martin, just as the poor choice of throwing popcorn at a complainer does not warrant being shot.
 
2014-01-15 04:34:40 PM
Holy motherf*ck these SYG threads get huge.
 
2014-01-15 04:40:00 PM

mikaloyd: Who here has thrown popcorn at strangers in a movie theatre?

And who has flung lead at strangers?


if you try to give someone popcorn lung don't be surprised if you catch lead poisoning.
 
2014-01-15 04:40:44 PM

Private_Citizen: willfullyobscure: This is another GREAT example of responsible defensive loadouts. A .380 was the perfect choice for this situation- if Rambo over there had had a high powered handgun like a Glock 17 or a .45 and non frangible rounds(which are the norm) instead, and he'd missed, it would have gone through a couple of seatbacks and still be a danger.

Hell, it could have gone right through Popcorn as well, although even a coated 9MM is pretty spent after traveling through a corpus.

The .380 would have stopped in the next movie seat; and it stopped the threat too. Perfect choice for self-defense carry. Lots of cops have seen what overpowered loads can do indoors, and they're actually the main audience for frangible rounds in their service weapons right now. It'd be nice to see some more of that common-sense attitude filter out to the shooting/defensive carry community at large

That .380 went through the wife's hand before it killed her husband.

/lethal weapons are lethal -don't trivialize even a .22


I think the problem with a .380 is that it's going to be less consistent, depending on what kind of clothing it has to penetrate, as well as limbs in an attempt to block it. But it's still a popular caliber, since it's a lot easier to handle in pocket pistols, and accuracy is going to matter more than the caliber size in regards to stopping power. There's a reason it's still around after all, there are lots of calibers that just aren't.
 
2014-01-15 04:42:18 PM

Dimensio: This incident is just another example of why "shall issue" concealed weapons permit statutes need to be repealed. The only people who should be allowed to legally carry firearms in public are law enforcement, active and retired.


Planning to pull an all-nighter? Still reeling them in; I essentially Ctrl+F'ed each page for "Dimensio" to optimize my experience. The Internet is yours today.
 
2014-01-15 04:42:29 PM

Deathfrogg: lennavan: Deathfrogg: People rarely "just snap". This murder comes from a lifetime of being a cop who had felt entitled to "respect" based on the presence of a badge and the corresponding license to kill that comes with it, and then being disrespected for being the self-appointed "law of the theater". This guy was building up to something like this, probably for years.

I don't know that being a cop had anything to do with it.  As in, I don't think being a cop makes you a person entitled to want respect, rather I think being the kinda person who wants to be entitled to respect makes you want to be a cop.

/my own wild speculation

You've never encountered a cop with a hangover or an itchy ass or a leftover high school toughguy attitude have you.


There's quite a bit of evidence that he's correct, though I don't have the citations handy.  Cops don't become assholes, assholes become cops.

As for texting, it's annoying, but a lot less annoying than many things that go on in a theater.  I have friends who are EMTs or doctors.  Sometimes they get a text during the movie.  They need to read it, make a one word reply, and sometimes leave.  I don't think they should be forced to not be able to go to movies, and it's a lot less disruption than leaving the theater and coming back every time they got a text.

If I saw somebody who texted during a movie, I'd put it in the same category as somebody opening a box of candy or blowing their nose.  Not something worth getting bothered by if it's quick and rare.

/Does not have a texting plan.
//Old
 
2014-01-15 04:42:56 PM

scroufus: lennavan: Nutsac_Jim: Yawn. 60% of the population of Wyoming is armed, vs Gun free Maryland at 22%.

Yet gun murders are 6x higher in Maryland. Apparently, simply possessing guns doesn't cause people to just shoot their fellow man.

I for one can't think of any other relevant differences between Wyoming and Maryland.  Baltimore and Cheyenne are like, IDENTICAL and stuff.

That and the population of Maryland is 5,928,814  and Wyoming is 582,658  with little to no racial diversity.


Nobody uses raw numbers except for liars and politicians.

The 6x number is the murder RATE per 100,000 people.
 
2014-01-15 04:43:45 PM

Dimensio: Because the subject has been referenced, I believe that this is appropriate:

Two popular narratives of the confrontation between Mr. Zimmerman and Mr. Martin exist.

In the "pro Zimmerman" narrative, Mr. Martin was actively casing a neighborhood in search of homes that he could easily burglarize and, while burglarizing, smoke marijuana cigarettes, have sexual relations with white women and use Skittles™ and a watermelon-flavoured beverage to create "purple drank". Mr. Zimmerman noticed Mr. Martin's clear and suspicious actions and, being a dutiful citizen, called the police to report the incident. After stepping outside of his vehicle to confirm his suspicions, lest he be mistaken (not wishing to summon the police should Mr. Martin actually be innocent), he was suddenly confronted with the 350lb Mr. Martin (all of that weight being muscle mass) whereupon he was pinned to the ground and struck repeatedly. He begged Mr. Martin to cease, attempting to use reason with his attacker at first, and resorted to deadly force only when Mr. Martin's refusal to cease violence (likely due to him being high on several drugs) was obvious.


In the "anti Zimmerman" narrative, Mr. Martin was returning home after volunteering at a homeless shelter for the previous sixteen hours. Mr. Zimmerman, seeking an opportunity to commit murder against an innocent black child, first contacted the police to establish a plausible justification for his premeditated crime, then -- despite a direct and lawful order by the police to remain in his vehicle -- stepped outside and deliberately followed Mr. Martin, preventing the youth from reaching his home. He held Mr. Martin at gunpoint, forced the boy to his knees, demanded that Mr. Martin refer to himself as "Toby", and then he fatally shot Mr. Martin. He then used the dying Mr. Martin's fists to strike himself in the face repeatedly, before slamming his head into the sidewalk in order to create the "injuries" that supposedly justified his use of force.


Bravo, sir.
 
2014-01-15 04:43:59 PM
Mr.BobDobalita:
LoL.. you just talked in a huge circle.   THe point of my post was that anyone can say the same thing about TM as you say about GZ.   "He shouldn't have been there so it was his fault".    Well that goes for BOTH of them.
Look, I'm not saying GZ is some saint... but I can put myself in his shoes.   I've been over to the neighbor's house when I couldn't reach them on the cell phone when I saw a plain white van back in behind their house and people going in and out...    I went over and I saw that it was a guy working on his wood floors...   are you suggesting that I would be irresponsible and it would be partly my fault if the guy attacked me and I shot him dead?
Where I come from, you're a good neighbor and check those things out.  The cops won't come out for that kind of thing and you shouldn't bother them with it anyway.
Anyways, my point was that in this case, it seems like mistakes were made on BOTH sides...   GZ and TM...   but the bottom line is no matter how much you want him to have been convicted of a crime, HE COMMITTED NO CRIME and was NOT GUILTY.  Sorry.   That's the way the cookie crumbles


Dont see how I talked in circles.  This event did not happen in a house. But you are making a hypothetical situation about visiting a house.  In the situation you painted not only did you not follow someone to that house to make sure no crime was committed but you also did not call 911 to let the police know.  Thieves steal things all the time.  Its not worth your life for someone elses stuff nor even you own items.    In my mind Zimzam is and was guilty of man slaughter.   No one can disprove him of being "in fear of his life" because no one was there or in those shoes.  However he should have not followed He got the the description of the person and phoned it in.   He could have notified his neighbors the next day and all them could have called the police to request added patrols of the neighborhood.  That is hindsight though.      Zimzam is an  adult Martin was a kid.   If you are expecting any teenager to make rational decisions then you are disillusion.    Neighbor hood watches jobs are simply to W A T C H not pursue.   We are simply not gonna agree and thats fine.   You have your stance I have mine.  I think you are a moron for your views and your probably think the same of mine.


 
2014-01-15 04:44:57 PM

redmid17: The Name: Dimensio: Because the subject has been referenced, I believe that this is appropriate:

That's probably the biggest waste of text I've ever seen.  You owe the internet 4 kilobytes.

It's not even the biggest wall of text in the thread.


Shhhh, let this Farker work.
 
2014-01-15 04:47:46 PM
The argument about good guys having guns to prevent bad guys pretty much went down the drain after this incident. I mean until this incident this douche for all intent and purpose would be considered a 'good guy with a gun'.
 
2014-01-15 04:50:03 PM

scroufus: Mr.BobDobalita:
LoL.. you just talked in a huge circle.   THe point of my post was that anyone can say the same thing about TM as you say about GZ.   "He shouldn't have been there so it was his fault".    Well that goes for BOTH of them.
Look, I'm not saying GZ is some saint... but I can put myself in his shoes.   I've been over to the neighbor's house when I couldn't reach them on the cell phone when I saw a plain white van back in behind their house and people going in and out...    I went over and I saw that it was a guy working on his wood floors...   are you suggesting that I would be irresponsible and it would be partly my fault if the guy attacked me and I shot him dead?
Where I come from, you're a good neighbor and check those things out.  The cops won't come out for that kind of thing and you shouldn't bother them with it anyway.
Anyways, my point was that in this case, it seems like mistakes were made on BOTH sides...   GZ and TM...   but the bottom line is no matter how much you want him to have been convicted of a crime, HE COMMITTED NO CRIME and was NOT GUILTY.  Sorry.   That's the way the cookie crumbles

Dont see how I talked in circles.  This event did not happen in a house. But you are making a hypothetical situation about visiting a house.  In the situation you painted not only did you not follow someone to that house to make sure no crime was committed but you also did not call 911 to let the police know.  Thieves steal things all the time.  Its not worth your life for someone elses stuff nor even you own items.    In my mind Zimzam is and was guilty of man slaughter.   No one can disprove him of being "in fear of his life" because no one was there or in those shoes.  However he should have not followed He got the the description of the person and phoned it in.   He could have notified his neighbors the next day and all them could have called the police to request added patrols of the neighborhood.  That is hindsight though.      Zimzam is an  adu ...


Actually in every state but Ohio you have to prove that Zimmerman didn't scream for help while getting beat-up (and in Ohio he simply has to prove to 51% accuracy that his story is true).

SYG had nothing to do w/ it other than a giant FU cant sue me part at the end
 
2014-01-15 04:50:07 PM
I just want to throw this little nugget into the mix here... If you are behind someone else in a movie theater, you cannot tell if they are texting unless you are standing up. And if you're standing up, you're probably not watching the movie yet so there's no way it would be a distraction unless you are looking for something to get pissed about.

/personal observation
//actual phone calls so not apply
///local theater actually offers an app that dims your screen during the film and gives you free stuff for not using your phone during the duration of the actual movie.
 
2014-01-15 04:50:11 PM
SuperNinjaToad

The argument about good guys having guns to prevent bad guys pretty much went down the drain after this incident.

But afterwards, someone with a firearm used it to defend themselves against a bad guy with a firearm, so it flipped back.
 
2014-01-15 04:50:18 PM
Hey look, another "When Two Assh0les Meet" discussion.
 
2014-01-15 04:50:50 PM

Dimensio: scroufus: About two minutes into the call, Zimmerman said, "he's running".[17] The dispatcher asked, "He's running? Which way is he running?"[66] Noises on the tape at this point have been interpreted by some media outlets as the sound of a car door chime, possibly indicating Zimmerman opened his car door.[67] Zimmerman followed Martin, eventually losing sight of him.[17] The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him. When Zimmerman answered, "yeah", the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "Okay."[68] Zimmerman asked that police call him upon their arrival so he could provide his location.[17] Zimmerman ended the call at 7:15 p.mOnce again he called the police no need to get out the car.

The police were notified.  Yes there had been some burglaries in the area but that is not Zimzams job.  That is the police's job.

Based upon the description that you provided, Mr. Zimmerman was already out of his vehicle at the time that the dispatcher stated that following Mr. Martin was not necessary. Mr. Zimmerman claimed that, after the call terminated, he attempted to return to his vehicle and was intercepted by Mr. Martin en route. As I noted, the prosecution was not able to disprove this claim (which, of course, is not proof that the claim is true).

Such a narrative implies that Mr. Zimmerman made poor choices in attempting to follow Mr. Martin (before being advised that doing so was unnecessary), but those choices alone did not warrant a physical attack from Mr. Martin, just as the poor choice of throwing popcorn at a complainer does not warrant being shot.


Yea he shouldnt have gotten out in the first place.  He was on the phone for 2 mins before he got out.  He described the person during that 2 mins. Thats about all you should do as a neighborhood watch.  He did not know who the person was nor know if they were armed.  It was not his job to get out of the car and pursue some one running.  There was no evidence of a crime that had happened.  Speculation is not guilt.
 
2014-01-15 04:51:45 PM

scroufus: Mr.BobDobalita:
LoL.. you just talked in a huge circle.   THe point of my post was that anyone can say the same thing about TM as you say about GZ.   "He shouldn't have been there so it was his fault".    Well that goes for BOTH of them.
Look, I'm not saying GZ is some saint... but I can put myself in his shoes.   I've been over to the neighbor's house when I couldn't reach them on the cell phone when I saw a plain white van back in behind their house and people going in and out...    I went over and I saw that it was a guy working on his wood floors...   are you suggesting that I would be irresponsible and it would be partly my fault if the guy attacked me and I shot him dead?
Where I come from, you're a good neighbor and check those things out.  The cops won't come out for that kind of thing and you shouldn't bother them with it anyway.
Anyways, my point was that in this case, it seems like mistakes were made on BOTH sides...   GZ and TM...   but the bottom line is no matter how much you want him to have been convicted of a crime, HE COMMITTED NO CRIME and was NOT GUILTY.  Sorry.   That's the way the cookie crumbles

Dont see how I talked in circles.  This event did not happen in a house. But you are making a hypothetical situation about visiting a house.  In the situation you painted not only did you not follow someone to that house to make sure no crime was committed but you also did not call 911 to let the police know.  Thieves steal things all the time.  Its not worth your life for someone elses stuff nor even you own items.    In my mind Zimzam is and was guilty of man slaughter.   No one can disprove him of being "in fear of his life" because no one was there or in those shoes.  However he should have not followed He got the the description of the person and phoned it in.   He could have notified his neighbors the next day and all them could have called the police to request added patrols of the neighborhood.  That is hindsight though.      Zimzam is an  adu ...



Fortunately, "your mind" is not the legal system.  He was deemed NOT GUILTY of manslaughter in a court of law.  Get over it.
 
2014-01-15 04:52:11 PM
I don't see how a Stand Your Ground STATUE is going to help..
www.pophistorydig.com
 
2014-01-15 04:52:22 PM

Deathfrogg: lennavan: Deathfrogg: People rarely "just snap". This murder comes from a lifetime of being a cop who had felt entitled to "respect" based on the presence of a badge and the corresponding license to kill that comes with it, and then being disrespected for being the self-appointed "law of the theater". This guy was building up to something like this, probably for years.

I don't know that being a cop had anything to do with it.  As in, I don't think being a cop makes you a person entitled to want respect, rather I think being the kinda person who wants to be entitled to respect makes you want to be a cop.

/my own wild speculation

You've never encountered a cop with a hangover or an itchy ass or a leftover high school toughguy attitude have you.


I think you misread what I'm saying here.  I'm telling you it's the personality that's relevant, not the occupation.  Had this ex-cop been instead an ex-something else, his underlying personality is the same.  Whether the leftover high school tough guy becomes a cop, or a grocery store clerk, either way I think he still shoots this guy for throwing popcorn.
 
2014-01-15 04:53:12 PM
scroufus

He was on the phone for 2 mins before he got out. He described the person during that 2 mins. Thats about all you should do as a neighborhood watch.

Not to slow your roll or anything, but he wasn't on any kind of "watch" function when all this occurred. He was on his way to the store, not patrolling the neighborhood.
 
2014-01-15 04:54:26 PM

Mr.BobDobalita: scroufus: Mr.BobDobalita:
LoL.. you just talked in a huge circle.   THe point of my post was that anyone can say the same thing about TM as you say about GZ.   "He shouldn't have been there so it was his fault".    Well that goes for BOTH of them.
Look, I'm not saying GZ is some saint... but I can put myself in his shoes.   I've been over to the neighbor's house when I couldn't reach them on the cell phone when I saw a plain white van back in behind their house and people going in and out...    I went over and I saw that it was a guy working on his wood floors...   are you suggesting that I would be irresponsible and it would be partly my fault if the guy attacked me and I shot him dead?
Where I come from, you're a good neighbor and check those things out.  The cops won't come out for that kind of thing and you shouldn't bother them with it anyway.
Anyways, my point was that in this case, it seems like mistakes were made on BOTH sides...   GZ and TM...   but the bottom line is no matter how much you want him to have been convicted of a crime, HE COMMITTED NO CRIME and was NOT GUILTY.  Sorry.   That's the way the cookie crumbles

Dont see how I talked in circles.  This event did not happen in a house. But you are making a hypothetical situation about visiting a house.  In the situation you painted not only did you not follow someone to that house to make sure no crime was committed but you also did not call 911 to let the police know.  Thieves steal things all the time.  Its not worth your life for someone elses stuff nor even you own items.    In my mind Zimzam is and was guilty of man slaughter.   No one can disprove him of being "in fear of his life" because no one was there or in those shoes.  However he should have not followed He got the the description of the person and phoned it in.   He could have notified his neighbors the next day and all them could have called the police to request added patrols of the neighborhood.  That is hindsight though.      Zimzam ...


Yea he should have gotten manslaughter.  If I go out drinking get in a car and kill someone that is manslaughter for my poor choices.  Zimzam made poor choices that ended in the death of a kid.  The Judge was strongly hinting to the Jury about manslaughter chargers.   I just dont think they understood them.
 
2014-01-15 04:56:35 PM

SuperNinjaToad: The argument about good guys having guns to prevent bad guys pretty much went down the drain after this incident. I mean until this incident this douche for all intent and purpose would be considered a 'good guy with a gun'.


Not among people who know what cops are really like, and therefore resist the urge of people like you to give cops (and government generally) more and more power, under the ridiculously false assumption they are "good."

"If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind?"

-- Rand Paul
 
2014-01-15 04:56:52 PM

FlashHarry: cig-mkr: Anyone else find it odd, that in today's day and age of video, that no one else had their cell phone handy to record this?

um... a guy was just shot in front of me for using his cell phone. i'm NOT going to pull out my cell phone.


We seldom share the same opinion, but this is one of those instances where we are right on the same wavelength.
 
2014-01-15 04:59:29 PM
scroufus

If I go out drinking get in a car and kill someone that is manslaughter for my poor choices.

Difference being, of course, the legality between drunk driving and defending yourself against a guy that violently assaults you. The former is illegal, the latter not so much.
 
2014-01-15 05:00:03 PM

Nabb1: FlashHarry: cig-mkr: Anyone else find it odd, that in today's day and age of video, that no one else had their cell phone handy to record this?

um... a guy was just shot in front of me for using his cell phone. i'm NOT going to pull out my cell phone.

We seldom share the same opinion, but this is one of those instances where we are right on the same wavelength.


"OMG... @ movies. guy in front of me just"
 
2014-01-15 05:01:57 PM

jst3p: Nabb1: FlashHarry: cig-mkr: Anyone else find it odd, that in today's day and age of video, that no one else had their cell phone handy to record this?

um... a guy was just shot in front of me for using his cell phone. i'm NOT going to pull out my cell phone.

We seldom share the same opinion, but this is one of those instances where we are right on the same wavelength.

"OMG... @ movies. guy in front of me just"


As an individual who hates text messaging, the thought of using my cell phone after witnessing a shooting would not occur to me.

My ears would be ringing, and I would be unable to engage in any effective voice communication.
 
2014-01-15 05:05:40 PM

Trivia Jockey: rotsky: Trivia Jockey: The Battle of Canola Valley was particularly tragic.

General Reddenbocker's troops were exhausted, but determined.

It was a damned pressure cooker down in there, I'm telling you.


The Koreans had the best heavy artillery. Here is one of their Popcorn Cannons in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMBVx0tZ1NA
 
2014-01-15 05:14:05 PM

Phinn: -- Rand Paul Wikipedia

 
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