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(The Daily Beast)   The lawyer for the ex-cop who shot and killed a man in a Florida movie theater may use the Stand Your Ground defense because the victim "threw an unknown object" at the defendant. That "object?" It was likely popcorn   (thedailybeast.com) divider line 1007
    More: Followup, Chad Oulson, florida, Case CRC1400216CFA, Busch Gardens  
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6567 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Jan 2014 at 11:31 AM (48 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-15 11:44:28 AM  

ikanreed: Dimensio: This incident is just another example of why "shall issue" concealed weapons permit statutes need to be repealed. The only people who should be allowed to legally carry firearms in public are law enforcement, active and retired.

Can I participate in the dogpile on you too, or are you good?


The joke, as it is constructed, is not merely in that police officers (both active and retired) are often regarded by major firearm restriction advocates as being more "trustworthy" to carry firearms when in public, but also in that federal law explicitly allows both active and retired law enforcement to carry concealed firearms in every state (with limited exceptions) regardless of state laws regarding the carrying of concealed deadly weapons, thus making Florida's "shall-issue" concealed weapons permit statute irrelevant to the shooter's legal ability to carry a firearm.
 
2014-01-15 11:44:33 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Such a sad story. Even if the old dude goes to jail, is justice really served? He's 70 and retired, his life is basically over anyway.


That was one of the things Adkisson said when he shot up a church to kill liberals.

He was a legal gun owner. There will be much more than this. Listen to some of these freaks, killing people is on their bucket list.
 
2014-01-15 11:44:34 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Such a sad story. Even if the old dude goes to jail, is justice really served? He's 70 and retired, his life is basically over anyway.


They could spice it up by tossing him in general population and letting it be known he's an ex-cop. I'm sure everyone in there would treat him with the respect he deserves.
 
2014-01-15 11:45:13 AM  

Fissile: This guy has a history of confronting people in movie theaters http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/florida-woman-alleged-theate r -shooter-confronted-texting-3-weeks-article-1.1580192


The theater was in his neighborhood watch zone so he was just on routine patrol.
 
2014-01-15 11:45:21 AM  

ikanreed: Can I participate in the dogpile on you too, or are you good?


I "kan't reed" the thread, apparently.

stuffy: Did you even read the head line? He was a retired cop.


Telos: Umm, you mean like the guy in this article?


You guys... in the van.
 
2014-01-15 11:45:23 AM  

Dimensio: This incident is just another example of why "shall issue" concealed weapons permit statutes need to be repealed. The only people who should be allowed to legally carry firearms in public are law enforcement, active and retired.


10/10
I like how you have as many "smart" votes as "funny" votes.
 
2014-01-15 11:45:40 AM  
1.  Turn off your freaking cell phone in the theater.
2.  Turn off your freaking cell phone in the theater.
3.  Checking up on your precious snowflake doesn't give you a valid excuse to ruin the moviegoing experience for other people.  Take it outside.
4.  Turn off your freaking cell phone in the theater.
5.  A grown-ass man was throwing popcorn at someone who was asking him to act in a civilzed manner in a public place?  Douchenozzle.  Not deserving of death, but douchenozzle.
6.  A grown-ass man was throwing popcorn at someone who was asking him to act in a civilized manner in a public place.  Douchenozzle.
 
2014-01-15 11:45:43 AM  
If this defense works, the next step is to make it legal to shoot someone who drops their bag of popcorn and leaves the theater without cleaning it up.
 
2014-01-15 11:45:50 AM  
FTFA:

Judge Lynn Tepper was not impressed.

"It may or may not have been popcorn," Tepper said. "An unknown object does not equal taking out a gun ... It doesn't warrant taking out a gun and firing it at someone's chest."


Well.. there you go folks.  Lets all get outraged anyhow though!!

/and while it certainly didnt justify taking a life, I'd also like to point out that if the victim had not hit another man in the face with an object, he would still be alive.  It takes two to tango.
 
2014-01-15 11:45:58 AM  

bacongood: I can't wait for later news to report that the tossed object was something potentially dangerous (cell phone), but everyone still claiming it was merely popcorn.

Not saying it would justify self defense, but it is amazing how people will cling to the initial reports as fact even when actual evidence is presented.


Some old guy is ranting at you for texting, so you'd throw your expensive and easily breakable cellphone at him, rather than the disposable and cheap popcorn at hand? Seems unlikely.
 
2014-01-15 11:46:02 AM  

CrazyCracka420: Generation_D: It appears if you are a cop, or a wannabe cop, Florida is your paradise these days.

All you need is

1) A gun

2) An attitude

The shooting gallery is open, time to go hunting!

Note: fans of civilization that doesn't resemble Beirut in the 1980s, Somalia today or perhaps a very populated Old West, might want to just skip Florida entirely.

Let the inbreds and the senile battle it out.

Actually the "Wild West" had stricter gun control laws, and a lot less firearm deaths (at least that they documented, I suspect some people get killed and were buried in the desert without a trace...so the numbers may be skewed).  I read that the most firearm deaths in any year, was 4 in Tombstone, the year of the OK Corral gun fight.  Most frontier towns averaged 2 firearm deaths a year (again, this is something I read, so take with a grain of salt unless you want to do your own research).


How big was the average frontier town?
 
2014-01-15 11:46:10 AM  
The shooter might have a point, especially if it was movie theater popcorn he was assaulted with.  Most people agree that movie theater popcorn is injurious to your health.
 
2014-01-15 11:46:23 AM  

Some Coke Drinking Guy: Happen to be an ex-Florida cop myself.  Still haven't shot anyone in a movie theater, yet.


How pissed do you get when someone is texting during previews?
 
2014-01-15 11:46:44 AM  

farking_texan: 1.  Turn off your freaking cell phone in the theater.
2.  Turn off your freaking cell phone in the theater.
3.  Checking up on your precious snowflake doesn't give you a valid excuse to ruin the moviegoing experience for other people.  Take it outside.
4.  Turn off your freaking cell phone in the theater.
5.  A grown-ass man was throwing popcorn at someone who was asking him to act in a civilzed manner in a public place?  Douchenozzle.  Not deserving of death, but douchenozzle.
6.  A grown-ass man was throwing popcorn at someone who was asking him to act in a civilized manner in a public place.  Douchenozzle.


Texan you say?
Florida would have been my first guess.
 
2014-01-15 11:46:52 AM  
Now I agreed with most people when they said that Skittles and iced tea wasn't a great enough threat to stand your ground against. But I'm gonna have to side with the ex-cop on this one. As someone who lives with diverticulitis, I can tell you that popcorn can be a very dangerous thing.
 
2014-01-15 11:47:06 AM  
It'll work, because Florida
 
2014-01-15 11:47:06 AM  

Dimensio: ikanreed: Dimensio: This incident is just another example of why "shall issue" concealed weapons permit statutes need to be repealed. The only people who should be allowed to legally carry firearms in public are law enforcement, active and retired.

Can I participate in the dogpile on you too, or are you good?

The joke, as it is constructed, is not merely in that police officers (both active and retired) are often regarded by major firearm restriction advocates as being more "trustworthy" to carry firearms when in public, but also in that federal law explicitly allows both active and retired law enforcement to carry concealed firearms in every state (with limited exceptions) regardless of state laws regarding the carrying of concealed deadly weapons, thus making Florida's "shall-issue" concealed weapons permit statute irrelevant to the shooter's legal ability to carry a firearm.


Eh, I'm far enough away on the gun control debate, that I don't think the "carry" elements matter that much.  I would much rather see a society where even police officers don't have to be armed, but we're a constitutional amendment, and an unprecedented culture shift away from that, so I don't pretend we're going to see any real change.
 
2014-01-15 11:47:07 AM  

FlashHarry: Nabb1: The shooter is a retired police captain.

i wonder what they'll do to him in prison.


If he's in the general population, he'll probably get killed.
 
2014-01-15 11:47:07 AM  
The dudes in jail. He's going to prison. Defense attorneys say all kinds of crap all the time. That's their job. It doesn't mean it is likely to work.

If only the shooter was a part time pastor, than we could have all the haters in here to spew their hyperbolic tripe.
 
2014-01-15 11:47:10 AM  
Okay, okay, he may have over reacted.  But don't we all feel safer now?
 
2014-01-15 11:47:27 AM  
I bet the rest of the asshats who were sitting in that theater and texting quietly put away their phones and enjoyed the movie.
 
2014-01-15 11:47:40 AM  

Dimensio: This incident is just another example of why "shall issue" concealed weapons permit statutes need to be repealed. The only people who should be allowed to legally carry firearms in public are law enforcement, active and retired.


um, this -was- a cop. i really hope you were attempting to be being sarcastic and not actually that profoundly farktarded.
 
2014-01-15 11:47:44 AM  

Prey4reign: The shooter might have a point, especially if it was movie theater popcorn he was assaulted with.  Most people agree that movie theater popcorn is injurious to your health.


Roger Ebert died from cancer in his salivary glands.
 
2014-01-15 11:47:51 AM  

FlashHarry: Nabb1: The shooter is a retired police captain.

i wonder what they'll do to him in prison.


Let's hope alot of pain.
 
2014-01-15 11:47:51 AM  
The hull of justice.
 
2014-01-15 11:47:52 AM  
Generation_D [TotalFark]

Yeah, but that's the logic Invader Zimm used when the Scary Black Kid was Walking and Talking on the Cell Phone in a threatening manner, wearing a hoodie and carrying skittles.


The "Zimm" case wasn't a "Stand your ground case so we know your opinions can be discounted as ignorant.
 
2014-01-15 11:48:24 AM  

farking_texan: 1.  Turn off your freaking cell phone in the theater.
2.  Turn off your freaking cell phone in the theater.
3.  Checking up on your precious snowflake doesn't give you a valid excuse to ruin the moviegoing experience for other people.  Take it outside.
4.  Turn off your freaking cell phone in the theater.
5.  A grown-ass man was throwing popcorn at someone who was asking him to act in a civilzed manner in a public place?  Douchenozzle.  Not deserving of death, but douchenozzle.
6.  A grown-ass man was throwing popcorn at someone who was asking him to act in a civilized manner in a public place.  Douchenozzle.


Or alternatively, don't bring guns to the theater.
 
2014-01-15 11:48:28 AM  

Begoggle: Dimensio: Generation_D: Trivia Jockey: vpb: The problem is that all he has to do is claim that he was afraid and he is good. It doesn't matter if he actually had a reason to be afraid, it just matters that he was.

That's not true.  Although I hate SYG, it doesn't just require a subjective feeling of fear.  It requires a showing of reasonableness.

"Here's the thing," said Bob Dekle, legal skills professor at Levin. "It's not whether or not you're in fear. If the standard about shooting were fear that would give cowards carte blanche. The question is was there reasonable fear, was the fear reasonable?"

Yeah, but that's the logic Invader Zimm used when the Scary Black Kid was Walking and Talking on the Cell Phone in a threatening manner, wearing a hoodie and carrying skittles.

You are correct. That Mr. Zimmerman also reported being pinned to the ground and repeatedly punched in the face by Mr. Martin was in no way a part of his legal defense.

Yes, making up multiple lies was part of his defense, not just one lie.  Let's be fair.


I was not aware that Mr. Zimmerman's claim of being pinned against the sidewalk was proved to be a lie. When was this lie exposed, and for what reason did the prosecutor not only fail to refute the lie, but even admit an inability to do so?
 
2014-01-15 11:48:28 AM  
I hope the retired cop's son is forced to pull the lever at his father's execution
 
2014-01-15 11:49:51 AM  

farking_texan: 1.  Turn off your freaking cell phone in the theater

when the movie starts.
2.  Turn off your freaking cell phone in the theater
when the movie starts.
3.  Checking up on your precious snowflake doesn't give you a valid excuse to ruin the moviegoing experience for other people.  Take it outside. Unless the movie hasn't started, in which case, fair game.
4.  Turn off your freaking cell phone in the theater
when the movie starts.
5.  A grown-ass man was throwing popcorn at someone who was asking him to act in a civilzed manner in a public place?  Douchenozzle.  Not deserving of death, but douchenozzle.
6.  A grown-ass man was throwing popcorn at someone who was asking him to act in a civilized manner in a public place.  Douchenozzle.


FTFY. But yeah, it's rude to throw popcorn. That shiat has fake butter all over it and will stain your clothes.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-01-15 11:50:03 AM  
Trivia Jockey:

"Here's the thing," said Bob Dekle, legal skills professor at Levin. "It's not whether or not you're in fear. If the standard about shooting were fear that would give cowards carte blanche. The question is was there reasonable fear, was the fear reasonable?"

That's what the law says, but Florida courts seem not to be real good with the concept of reasonable.  Have you ever looked into some of the successful cases where SYG immunity was used?  It's been used by gang bangers in a shootout.

All he has to do is say he thought the guy was going to attack him, which actually may have been the case.  The fact that he could have backed off isn't relevant despite what the guy in the article says.

Kenneth B. Nunn, professor of law of the University of Florida's Levin College of Law. "But part of self defense requires you to retreat if you can do so in complete safety."

And here is what the actual law says:

(3)A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

I don't know what sort of law that guy teaches but it doesn't seem to be Florida law.
.
 
2014-01-15 11:50:35 AM  

vpb: Dimensio: This incident is just another example of why "shall issue" concealed weapons permit statutes need to be repealed. The only people who should be allowed to legally carry firearms in public are law enforcement, active and retired.

The "stand your ground" needs to be repealed.  The problem is that all he has to do is claim that he was afraid and he is good.  It doesn't matter if he actually had a reason to be afraid, it just matters that he was.

Also, I think that there ought to be a maximum age for carrying a firearm.  Too many old people get angry and frustrated when their mind starts going.  This guy managed to get through his career without snapping, so it's likely that this was some sort of age related mental deterioration.



See, I actually thought this guy did an entire LEO career and never had a justifiable opportunity to shoot anyone... and thanks to "Stand Your Ground," finally saw his chance.

Or so he thought... I think it's gonna be a case of "Haha... Yeah right! You shot a white dude, dummy! Muh-farker wasn't even swarthy."
 
2014-01-15 11:50:53 AM  

serial_crusher: I was amenable to the SYG defense until I saw the photo of the victim in TFA.  That's just a normal family, not at all what I'd expect somebody dangerous to look like.


obviously you've never seen the guy when he's texting

goatmilk.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-01-15 11:51:24 AM  

Trivia Jockey: Don't laugh.  I remember the Great Popcorn Wars like they were yesterday.  I still have flashbacks when I hear those "POP POP POP" sounds.  The Battle of Canola Valley was particularly tragic.


I'll never get over Canola Valley.
 
2014-01-15 11:51:34 AM  

uncleacid: A Milk Dud can put an eye out.


At least it wasn't a Junior Mint.

/very refreshing
 
2014-01-15 11:51:40 AM  
I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often.  This guy came up thinking he could basically pick and chose who to kill by announcing, "He was reaching for something, I felt threatened," and he was right.  Problem is he doesn't have the magic shield against prosecution that a badge entails now.

What do you want to bet everyone in the department knew for years that this was an erratic guy who was prone to trying to hurt people who crossed him or talked back to him?
 
2014-01-15 11:52:13 AM  

Nabb1: vpb: factoryconnection: Trivia Jockey: And SYG wasn't used at his trial. QED.

Oh, that is correct as well.

Not really.  He didn't try to invoke the immunity in SYG, but "Stand Your Ground" changed the standards for self defense as well.  It eliminates any requirement to retreat.

Hard to retreat when someone has you on the ground and is giving you the business...


Yeah Zimm shot Martin while Martin was on top of him...

stream1.gifsoup.com
 
2014-01-15 11:52:48 AM  

Trivia Jockey: shanrick: Is it too soon to talk about popcorn control?

Yes, let's talk reasonable butter limits.


[colddeadfingers.jpg]
 
2014-01-15 11:52:54 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Even if the old dude goes to jail, is justice really served? He's 70 and retired, his life is basically over anyway.


are you farking kidding me?  you don't get to murder people just because you turn 70.
 
2014-01-15 11:52:55 AM  

DrPainMD: Trivia Jockey: Don't laugh.  I remember the Great Popcorn Wars like they were yesterday.  I still have flashbacks when I hear those "POP POP POP" sounds.  The Battle of Canola Valley was particularly tragic.

I'll never get over Canola Valley.



I hear ya, man.  During the carpet salting campaign, I lost several good friends.
 
2014-01-15 11:53:42 AM  
I told you that it would happen. They need to test the father for marijuana.
 
2014-01-15 11:53:58 AM  
So long as the victim doesn't look TOO much like he could be Obamas son, the trial should go smoothly.

And to paraphrase Chris Rock:  I'm not saying that I approve of shooting a guy texting in a theater, but I understand.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-01-15 11:54:01 AM  

Nabb1: vpb: factoryconnection: Trivia Jockey: And SYG wasn't used at his trial. QED.

Oh, that is correct as well.

Not really.  He didn't try to invoke the immunity in SYG, but "Stand Your Ground" changed the standards for self defense as well.  It eliminates any requirement to retreat.

Hard to retreat when someone has you on the ground and is giving you the business...


That's why you don't push things that far.  It's very easy to retreat if you don't follow someone in street clothes with a concealed weapon like you are a mugger or something.
 
2014-01-15 11:54:50 AM  

Trivia Jockey: Yes, let's talk reasonable butter limits.


Butter is already banned in movie theaters.

I mean, you don't imagine that the oleaginous substance slopped onto the dried out styrofoam nuggets mis-labelled as "popcorn" is actually "butter", do you?
 
2014-01-15 11:54:58 AM  
Will this result in smaller popcorn buckets?
 
2014-01-15 11:55:26 AM  

Super_pope: What do you want to bet everyone in the department knew for years that this was an erratic guy who was prone to trying to hurt people who crossed him or talked back to him?


We'll never know.  Blue line of silence and all that.
 
2014-01-15 11:55:52 AM  

Some Coke Drinking Guy: Actually no, stand your ground only works, if it is reasonable for the person to believe his life is in danger, and you are lawfully about your business. Throwing a tub of popcorn would not be reasonable.


A guy is pulling up to the Taco Bell drive-thru window in his truck.  Some guy walks in front of you waving a dog leash but you think it's a metal pipe.  So you shoot him in the chest.  You claim "stand your ground."  Do you go free?

A guy steals something from you so you chase him for over a block.  He swings a bag of radios at you so you stab him to death.  You claim "stand your ground."  Do you go free?

There's a loud party going on in the garage next door.  So you call the cops to complain and when the cops show up, a bunch of them run to try to not get busted and one tries to hide on your porch.  So you grab your gun, go out there and find an unarmed, drunk black 20 year old kid hiding from the cops.  He takes a step toward you, so you shoot him once in the chest, killing him.  You claim "stand your ground."  Do you go free?

You notice someone is robbing your neighbor.  So you call 911.  911 says cops are on the way, so don't worry and don't do anything.  You tell the 911 operator the cops better hurry up because you've got a shotgun and you're not going to let them go.  A few more things are said before you tell the 911 operator "You want to make a bet? I'm going to kill them... well here it goes, buddy. You hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going."  The last thing the 911 operator hears is "Move, you're dead" before the cops show up and find two victims shot in the back.  You claim "stand your ground."  Do you go free?

Why yes, in all of these cases, you my good sir were simply protecting yourself when your life was in imminent danger.  Sure, mistaking a dog leash for a metal pipe and thinking either one of those puts your life in immediate danger while you are in a truck and he is in front of your truck is standing your ground, but mistaking popcorn for something else is crazy!
 
2014-01-15 11:55:53 AM  

vpb: This guy managed to get through his career without snapping, so it's likely that this was some sort of age related mental deterioration.


 or maybe the difference is that when he was on active duty he just got a free pass for all of the people he beat down.
 now that he retired and couldn't just blow off steam by kicking peoples heads in whenever he felt like it, the anger may have just gotten to him until he finally exploded.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-01-15 11:55:56 AM  
Dimensio:

The joke, as it is constructed, is not merely in that police officers (both active and retired) are often regarded by major firearm restriction advocates as being more "trustworthy" to carry firearms when in public, but also in that federal law explicitly allows both active and retired law enforcement to carry concealed firearms in every state (with limited exceptions) regardless of state laws regarding the carrying of concealed deadly weapons, thus making Florida's "shall-issue" concealed weapons permit statute irrelevant to the shooter's legal ability to carry a firearm.

In this case yes, but not everyone is a retired cop.
 
2014-01-15 11:56:31 AM  

fireclown: So long as the victim doesn't look TOO much like he could be Obamas son, the trial should go smoothly.



Sad that this is so acceptable.
 
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