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(Politics UK)   No-fault divorce makes splitting up too easy say judges, who want to hang a critical "bad-thinking" clause on at least one half of the couples and shame them for it   (politics.co.uk) divider line 407
    More: Interesting, Tory MPs, couples, Westminster Hall  
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7027 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Jan 2014 at 10:09 AM (40 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-15 02:29:11 PM  

lennavan: Marriage has a meaning. What you are searching for is a term that means everything marriage does, except without the "until death" bit.


The clause about marriage being until death was instituted back when people were lucky to survive past their 30s.  It was also a time back when marriages were a lot more to do with politics than love.  Having an arranged marriage fall apart might result in some nasty consequences between families.

In the modern world, I see nothing wrong about divorce.  People change over time, and sometimes that means that people grow apart.  Since arranged marriages and shotgun marriages are now things of the past, we're a little more free to have marriage on our own terms.

Does that mean that I think everyone should get a divorce at the first sign of trouble?  Mostly, no.  As long as physical abuse isn't involved, in which case a divorce attorney should be the second person you call after the cops, I think you should work on resolving issues before separating.  But to suggest that divorce should be off the table except for the most grievous of circumstances is rather old fashioned.
 
2014-01-15 02:29:59 PM  

lennavan: jst3p: A degree is a credential that, in theory, demonstrates to someone else that you have learned something and will be able to contribute in a positive way to their industry.

cre·den·tial
krəˈdenCHəl/
noun
noun: credential; plural noun: credentials
1.
a qualification, achievement, personal quality, or aspect of a person's background, typically when used to indicate that they are suitable for something.

What aspect of a person's background do you think doctors typically use to indicate whether or not you are suitable to make medical decisions for someone?


None, they use the legal contract you are engaged in that gives you the legal right to make those medical decisions.
 
2014-01-15 02:41:53 PM  

jst3p: If it did, in fact, lose value when it lost the "until death" part it happened in the old testament


That is not the only place marriage lost value.
 
2014-01-15 02:43:09 PM  

lennavan: jst3p: If it did, in fact, lose value when it lost the "until death" part it happened in the old testament

That is not the only place marriage lost value.


That is where the "till death" part became decoration.
 
2014-01-15 02:46:12 PM  

thurstonxhowell: First, the divorce rate is below 50%.


Marriage rate: 6.8 per 1,000 total population
Divorce rate: 3.6 per 1,000 population (44 reporting States and D.C.)

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/divorce.htm

thurstonxhowell: Second, people who have already been divorced are more likely to be divorced again. They would count twice for the percentage despite not being multiple people.


Their marriages would also count twice.

thurstonxhowell: Third, a divorce is only evidence that one half of the couple wanted to end the marriage. It is not necessary that both have that desire, common though that may be.


And?

thurstonxhowell: You yourself have stated that you are only against no-fault divorces.


I'd really love to see that quote because I'm for no-fault divorces.
 
2014-01-15 02:47:19 PM  

jst3p: lennavan: jst3p: If it did, in fact, lose value when it lost the "until death" part it happened in the old testament

That is not the only place marriage lost value.

That is where the "till death" part became decoration.


And yet the vast majority of people still took it seriously until 1970.  It's almost as if it wasn't decoration.
 
2014-01-15 02:48:52 PM  

jst3p: lennavan: jst3p: A degree is a credential that, in theory, demonstrates to someone else that you have learned something and will be able to contribute in a positive way to their industry.

cre·den·tial
krəˈdenCHəl/
noun
noun: credential; plural noun: credentials
1.
a qualification, achievement, personal quality, or aspect of a person's background, typically when used to indicate that they are suitable for something.

What aspect of a person's background do you think doctors typically use to indicate whether or not you are suitable to make medical decisions for someone?

None, they use the legal contract you are engaged in that gives you the legal right to make those medical decisions.



A marriage is a legal contract.  Therefore my analogy holds up, even by your overzealous standards.  Hurray!
 
2014-01-15 02:49:29 PM  
THEAETETUS:Ironic, considering that their state religion was founded on the concept of divorce.

WIN!!
 
2014-01-15 02:50:48 PM  

lennavan: jst3p: lennavan: jst3p: A degree is a credential that, in theory, demonstrates to someone else that you have learned something and will be able to contribute in a positive way to their industry.

cre·den·tial
krəˈdenCHəl/
noun
noun: credential; plural noun: credentials
1.
a qualification, achievement, personal quality, or aspect of a person's background, typically when used to indicate that they are suitable for something.

What aspect of a person's background do you think doctors typically use to indicate whether or not you are suitable to make medical decisions for someone?

None, they use the legal contract you are engaged in that gives you the legal right to make those medical decisions.

A marriage is a legal contract.  Therefore my analogy holds up, even by your overzealous standards.  Hurray!


But not a credential. Your marriage is not less likely to get the doctor to allow you to make medical decisions for your wife because there is a high divorce rate. Your analogy is still bad.
 
2014-01-15 02:51:46 PM  

lennavan: jst3p: lennavan: jst3p: If it did, in fact, lose value when it lost the "until death" part it happened in the old testament

That is not the only place marriage lost value.

That is where the "till death" part became decoration.

And yet the vast majority of people still took it seriously until 1970.  It's almost as if it wasn't decoration.


And the fact that divorce existed in 1969 didn't devalue anyone else's marriage.
 
2014-01-15 02:52:27 PM  

alice_600: Satan's Bunny Slippers: vicioushobbit: alice_600: The My Little Pony Killer: lennavan: The My Little Pony Killer: lennavan: Your opinion has no bearing on reality.

I'm glad we agree upon this point, and yet you still keep spouting your opinions as though they were reality.

I know.  Here I am with the opinion "with a 50%+ divorce rate, people should probably take getting married a bit more seriously" and yet here we are with the divorce rate unchanged.  How crazy am I?

And yet, divorce has been a thing since the founding of this country, and the meaning of marriage has yet to change.

How crazy are you? You totes cray-cray. Seek help.

Cray-cray? How old are you, 12?

0/10

So, is this lennavan's retribution alt, or something?

I'm confused as well.  Especially since it was at first nice to MLPK, then turned and lashed out.  Perhaps medication needs to be adjusted.

No I'm not, I used to get into spats with her but when she said her dad left her when she she was a kid I felt sorry for her and wanted to befriend her and do the good thing and help her not feel so alone. It's tough I know, but it doesn't need to be.


That's adorable, airing somebody else's laundry to make yourself look better.
 
2014-01-15 02:55:51 PM  

wildcardjack: I should have sued my mother-inlaw for failing to disclose that my (now ex) wife required psychiatric medicine and had been institutionalized in her teens.

So, get married, no meds, suddenly she's MY burden! fark that shiat, I ditched that crazy redhead. And I do mean craaazy. Delusional, pathological liar that got brutally violent when you picked at her lies.

She'd be great on Fox News.


Yeah, if a grown adult refuses to take their meds, that's on them.
 
2014-01-15 02:58:45 PM  

Pokey.Clyde: alice_600: If you want to get married before 25 you need to be 18, have a drivers licence and at least an associates degree. You must attend six months of couples counselling, marriage classes, and parenting classes, (miss more than 3 classes of any combo you have to start all over again) submit to a drug and STDs test and then wam wedding day!

Either you're one hell of a troll, or weapon's grade stupid.


Nope just work with weapon's grade stupid every day.
 
2014-01-15 02:59:07 PM  

lennavan: jst3p: lennavan: jst3p: If it did, in fact, lose value when it lost the "until death" part it happened in the old testament

That is not the only place marriage lost value.

That is where the "till death" part became decoration.

And yet the vast majority of people still took it seriously until 1970.  It's almost as if it wasn't decoration.


Not if the number of film noir from the 30s to the sixties that revolved around obtaining a quick divorce in Reno or bumping off the spouse because divorce couldn't be granted.
 
2014-01-15 02:59:11 PM  

lennavan: thurstonxhowell: Third, a divorce is only evidence that one half of the couple wanted to end the marriage. It is not necessary that both have that desire, common though that may be.

And?


If the divorce rate is 50% and we assume that every person who initiates divorce does not understand marriage, then we only know that at least 25% of people don't understand marriage. 25% is less than a majority, so a 50% divorce rate does not prove that half of all people don't understand marriage. It is possible that's true, but the evidence provided is not sufficient to prove it.

This is even using the assumption that the initiator of a divorce necessarily does not understand marriage, which I do not agree with. Which brings me to my next point.

lennavan: I'd really love to see that quote because I'm for no-fault divorces.


lennavan: I think everyone who files for a no-fault divorce is basically admitting they shouldn't have gotten married in the first place.


Fair enough. I suppose you could support the divorce, but think that people who file for it are stupid. I still think your statement strongly implies that you believe that there exists a form of divorce that allows for the initiator to have understood marriage but still file for divorce. If you did not believe that, you could have omitted "no-fault" from that sentence.
 
2014-01-15 03:01:44 PM  

Pokey.Clyde: alice_600: If you want to get married before 25 you need to be 18, have a drivers licence and at least an associates degree. You must attend six months of couples counselling, marriage classes, and parenting classes, (miss more than 3 classes of any combo you have to start all over again) submit to a drug and STDs test and then wam wedding day!

Either you're one hell of a troll, or weapon's grade stupid.


vicioushobbit: alice_600: Satan's Bunny Slippers: vicioushobbit: alice_600: The My Little Pony Killer: lennavan: The My Little Pony Killer: lennavan: Your opinion has no bearing on reality.

I'm glad we agree upon this point, and yet you still keep spouting your opinions as though they were reality.

I know.  Here I am with the opinion "with a 50%+ divorce rate, people should probably take getting married a bit more seriously" and yet here we are with the divorce rate unchanged.  How crazy am I?

And yet, divorce has been a thing since the founding of this country, and the meaning of marriage has yet to change.

How crazy are you? You totes cray-cray. Seek help.

Cray-cray? How old are you, 12?

0/10

So, is this lennavan's retribution alt, or something?

I'm confused as well.  Especially since it was at first nice to MLPK, then turned and lashed out.  Perhaps medication needs to be adjusted.

No I'm not, I used to get into spats with her but when she said her dad left her when she she was a kid I felt sorry for her and wanted to befriend her and do the good thing and help her not feel so alone. It's tough I know, but it doesn't need to be.

That's adorable, airing somebody else's laundry to make yourself look better.


Well how was I suppose to explain my point?
 
2014-01-15 03:05:04 PM  

vicioushobbit: alice_600: Satan's Bunny Slippers: vicioushobbit: alice_600: The My Little Pony Killer: lennavan: The My Little Pony Killer: lennavan: Your opinion has no bearing on reality.

I'm glad we agree upon this point, and yet you still keep spouting your opinions as though they were reality.

I know.  Here I am with the opinion "with a 50%+ divorce rate, people should probably take getting married a bit more seriously" and yet here we are with the divorce rate unchanged.  How crazy am I?

And yet, divorce has been a thing since the founding of this country, and the meaning of marriage has yet to change.

How crazy are you? You totes cray-cray. Seek help.

Cray-cray? How old are you, 12?

0/10

So, is this lennavan's retribution alt, or something?

I'm confused as well.  Especially since it was at first nice to MLPK, then turned and lashed out.  Perhaps medication needs to be adjusted.

No I'm not, I used to get into spats with her but when she said her dad left her when she she was a kid I felt sorry for her and wanted to befriend her and do the good thing and help her not feel so alone. It's tough I know, but it doesn't need to be.

That's adorable, airing somebody else's laundry to make yourself look better.


Ya know you're right I shouldn't have I shouldn't care about another's suffering, so here's what I am going to do from now on. I am not going to care about anyone's feelings or opinions. Or if they need a hug or a meal. I am not going to donate any money, toys, clothing, food, or my time to anyone at any time. I am going to throw it all away because I'm just trying to make myself look better.
 
2014-01-15 03:05:35 PM  

alice_600: Pokey.Clyde: alice_600: If you want to get married before 25 you need to be 18, have a drivers licence and at least an associates degree. You must attend six months of couples counselling, marriage classes, and parenting classes, (miss more than 3 classes of any combo you have to start all over again) submit to a drug and STDs test and then wam wedding day!

Either you're one hell of a troll, or weapon's grade stupid.

vicioushobbit: alice_600: Satan's Bunny Slippers: vicioushobbit: alice_600: The My Little Pony Killer: lennavan: The My Little Pony Killer: lennavan: Your opinion has no bearing on reality.

I'm glad we agree upon this point, and yet you still keep spouting your opinions as though they were reality.

I know.  Here I am with the opinion "with a 50%+ divorce rate, people should probably take getting married a bit more seriously" and yet here we are with the divorce rate unchanged.  How crazy am I?

And yet, divorce has been a thing since the founding of this country, and the meaning of marriage has yet to change.

How crazy are you? You totes cray-cray. Seek help.

Cray-cray? How old are you, 12?

0/10

So, is this lennavan's retribution alt, or something?

I'm confused as well.  Especially since it was at first nice to MLPK, then turned and lashed out.  Perhaps medication needs to be adjusted.

No I'm not, I used to get into spats with her but when she said her dad left her when she she was a kid I felt sorry for her and wanted to befriend her and do the good thing and help her not feel so alone. It's tough I know, but it doesn't need to be, but after talking to her over time, I've decided to treat her gently.

That's adorable, airing somebody else's laundry to make yourself look better.

Well how was I suppose to explain my point?


Or something similar.  It's not hard, dude. 

Do unto others, unless you'd like somebody randomly spouting shiat you've vented about in other threads, and using it against you.
 
2014-01-15 03:06:25 PM  

jst3p: But not a credential.


jst3p: cre·den·tial
krəˈdenCHəl/
noun
noun: credential; plural noun: credentials
1.
a qualification, achievement, personal quality, or aspect of a person's background, typically when used to indicate that they are suitable for something.


A credential is an "aspect of a person's background typically used to indicate they are suitable for something."

When a doctor wants to know if you are suitable to make medical decisions, typically they want to know if you have a legal contract allowing you to.

A marriage is a legal contract saying you are suitable to (amongst other things) make medical decisions.

jst3p:
But not a credential.

But you do not believe marriage is a credential.

jst3p: Your marriage is not less likely to get the doctor to allow you to make medical decisions for your wife because there is a high divorce rate.


True/False:  Being married is typically utilized by a doctor to determine that you are suitable to make a medical decision for someone.

I will grant you, this tangential argument about the analogy is negligibly relevant.  But it demonstrates how you're dug in so far you refuse to even acknowledge the meaning of words.  Normally I'd just hammer this one home over and over again to constantly point out the stupidity here.  I'm gonna go ahead and give you a pass.  But you gotta do your part, take a step back, read what you're writing and at least tone down the stupidity.
 
2014-01-15 03:07:09 PM  

alice_600: vicioushobbit: alice_600: Satan's Bunny Slippers: vicioushobbit: alice_600: The My Little Pony Killer: lennavan: The My Little Pony Killer: lennavan: Your opinion has no bearing on reality.

I'm glad we agree upon this point, and yet you still keep spouting your opinions as though they were reality.

I know.  Here I am with the opinion "with a 50%+ divorce rate, people should probably take getting married a bit more seriously" and yet here we are with the divorce rate unchanged.  How crazy am I?

And yet, divorce has been a thing since the founding of this country, and the meaning of marriage has yet to change.

How crazy are you? You totes cray-cray. Seek help.

Cray-cray? How old are you, 12?

0/10

So, is this lennavan's retribution alt, or something?

I'm confused as well.  Especially since it was at first nice to MLPK, then turned and lashed out.  Perhaps medication needs to be adjusted.

No I'm not, I used to get into spats with her but when she said her dad left her when she she was a kid I felt sorry for her and wanted to befriend her and do the good thing and help her not feel so alone. It's tough I know, but it doesn't need to be.

That's adorable, airing somebody else's laundry to make yourself look better.

Ya know you're right I shouldn't have I shouldn't care about another's suffering, so here's what I am going to do from now on. I am not going to care about anyone's feelings or opinions. Or if they need a hug or a meal. I am not going to donate any money, toys, clothing, food, or my time to anyone at any time. I am going to throw it all away because I'm just trying to make myself look better.


Way to take the martyr angle.  What you SHOULDN"T do is talk about other people's life drama in a FARK thread, when it is irrelevant to the conversation. 

What a troll.
 
2014-01-15 03:07:41 PM  

thurstonxhowell: lennavan: thurstonxhowell: Third, a divorce is only evidence that one half of the couple wanted to end the marriage. It is not necessary that both have that desire, common though that may be.

And?

If the divorce rate is 50% and we assume that every person who initiates divorce does not understand marriage, then we only know that at least 25% of people don't understand marriage. 25% is less than a majority, so a 50% divorce rate does not prove that half of all people don't understand marriage. It is possible that's true, but the evidence provided is not sufficient to prove it.

This is even using the assumption that the initiator of a divorce necessarily does not understand marriage, which I do not agree with. Which brings me to my next point.

lennavan: I'd really love to see that quote because I'm for no-fault divorces.

lennavan: I think everyone who files for a no-fault divorce is basically admitting they shouldn't have gotten married in the first place.

Fair enough. I suppose you could support the divorce, but think that people who file for it are stupid. I still think your statement strongly implies that you believe that there exists a form of divorce that allows for the initiator to have understood marriage but still file for divorce. If you did not believe that, you could have omitted "no-fault" from that sentence.


Well adults should know what marriage means and what's beyond the wedding dayif not why were they even married to begin with.
 
2014-01-15 03:08:21 PM  

thurstonxhowell: If the divorce rate is 50%


If this is a serious discussion and we're now talking that the divorce rate is 50%, I'm gonna go ahead and ask for an apology and/or retraction.

thurstonxhowell: This is false for several reasons.
First, the divorce rate is below 50%.


Because if I cannot get you to agree you were wrong about knowable, cited facts, there's really no point in discussing anything with you, now is there?
 
2014-01-15 03:09:26 PM  
Meh - my wife and I will be getting divorced because it makes the taxman happier and it will limit our debt liability.

Legal marriage is signing a piece of paper.
Legal divorce is signing a different piece of paper.

Don't confuse either for love or a good relationship.
 
2014-01-15 03:09:28 PM  

alice_600: adults should know what marriage means and what's beyond the wedding day


Adults should also know marriage and wedding are two completely different words with two completely different meanings and that it's fully possible to have a marriage without a wedding.
 
2014-01-15 03:10:39 PM  

jst3p: lennavan: jst3p: lennavan: jst3p: If it did, in fact, lose value when it lost the "until death" part it happened in the old testament

That is not the only place marriage lost value.

That is where the "till death" part became decoration.

And yet the vast majority of people still took it seriously until 1970.  It's almost as if it wasn't decoration.

And the fact that divorce existed in 1969 didn't devalue anyone else's marriage.


The fact that after 1970 you could divorce someone for no reason at all did.
 
2014-01-15 03:20:07 PM  

lennavan: Because if I cannot get you to agree you were wrong about knowable, cited facts, there's really no point in discussing anything with you, now is there?


Nice dodge.
 
2014-01-15 03:21:23 PM  

lennavan: jst3p: lennavan: jst3p: lennavan: jst3p: If it did, in fact, lose value when it lost the "until death" part it happened in the old testament

That is not the only place marriage lost value.

That is where the "till death" part became decoration.

And yet the vast majority of people still took it seriously until 1970.  It's almost as if it wasn't decoration.

And the fact that divorce existed in 1969 didn't devalue anyone else's marriage.

The fact that after 1970 you could divorce someone for no reason at all did.


Multiple surveys have been given to the American people requesting their opinions regarding no-fault divorce.[23] The surveys revealed that 50% of Americans are disappointed with no-fault divorce and would like alterations to the system to make no-fault divorce more difficult.[23] A no-fault divorce is much easier to obtain than a fault divorce. [24] They save time and money plus neither party has to provide evidence.[24] A no-fault divorce also allows the divorcing parties to have privacy, which can allow them to work with each other during the difficult time.[24]

(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grounds_for_divorce_%28United_States%29 #S hift_of_acceptance   yeah, wikipedia, blah blah)

Why are people against letting individuals work together during a time of a marriage dissolving? Are we this desperate for sensational news?

CSB:

My divorce was an no-fault divorce.  But it took counseling for me to be able look at the possibility, because I WAS looking at it "Til death do us part", and was miserable in my existence.  He showed no intention of trying anything different, refused to go to counseling, so it became "my" problem.  By the time I was talking suicide to my counselor to get out of the relationship to which I had fully committed myself, and he suggested divorce, I wasn't ready to tell the whole world about the problems that led me to that point.  And thank the gods I didn't have to.  Now happily married, to a man who is a considerate partner.

My rambling point is this: Just because you think no-fault divorces are a bad thing, doesn't mean that they are.  They can be a way for people to dissolve a marriage that doesn't need to be.

My (best) counselor once told me, people grow and change as they get older.  The younger you marry, the more likelihood of growing in opposite directions.  The goal is that the partners will grow alongside each other, compliment and enhance each other.  But what DOES often happen, is one person grows slightly in a different direction, and maybe it's on a topic that the other is hard-lined on.  If you cannot work in your relationship to grow together, if you are past that point, it's better to move on and find somebody with whom you CAN grow.
 
2014-01-15 03:21:40 PM  

alice_600: Well adults should know what marriage means and what's beyond the wedding dayif not why were they even married to begin with.


Yes, they should. You'll find nary a word I said that disagrees with that.

lennavan: Adults should also know marriage and wedding are two completely different words with two completely different meanings and that it's fully possible to have a marriage without a wedding.


You sure picked the hell out of that nit. Congratulations.
 
2014-01-15 03:25:11 PM  

lennavan: jst3p: lennavan: jst3p: lennavan: jst3p: If it did, in fact, lose value when it lost the "until death" part it happened in the old testament

That is not the only place marriage lost value.

That is where the "till death" part became decoration.

And yet the vast majority of people still took it seriously until 1970.  It's almost as if it wasn't decoration.

And the fact that divorce existed in 1969 didn't devalue anyone else's marriage.

The fact that after 1970 you could divorce someone for no reason at all did.


How is your marriage less valued because othrer people get divorced?
 
2014-01-15 03:29:55 PM  

thurstonxhowell: lennavan: Because if I cannot get you to agree you were wrong about knowable, cited facts, there's really no point in discussing anything with you, now is there?

Nice dodge.


I didn't dodge, the very first thing you wrote:

thurstonxhowell: This is false for several reasons.
First, the divorce rate is below 50%.


My response:

lennavan: Marriage rate: 6.8 per 1,000 total population
Divorce rate: 3.6 per 1,000 population (44 reporting States and D.C.)

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/divorce.htm


I want to make sure the very first thing you wrote was settled.  These are knowable, verifiable facts.  Were you right, or were you wrong?
 
2014-01-15 03:31:41 PM  

jst3p: How is your marriage less valued because othrer people get divorced?


We've been over this.

jst3p: in reality that "till death" part is decoration, not part of the meaning of the word anymore?

 
2014-01-15 03:33:07 PM  

thurstonxhowell: You sure picked the hell out of that nit. Congratulations.


Hehe yeah, that's an irrelevant nit to pick, unless of course a major religion like Catholicism uses religion as a reason against gay marriage, in which case the response religions perform WEDDINGS and that nit is relevant.

Dipshiat.
 
2014-01-15 03:33:25 PM  

jst3p: jcb274: jst3p: lennavan: Marriage is an equal sharing of everything in the relationship.  If that's not you, then don't get married.

It seems to many people marriage is a promise "as long as things are still good, we'll split things equally and stick together."  What an earth shattering promise.  That's called "having a girlfriend."  Marriage is a promise "if shiat hits the fan, we'll still work it out."

Maybe marriage means different things to different people and you should let them decide for themselves what they want it to be. So long as the two people who are getting married have similar expectations it's all good, right?

This sounds fine in principle.  But what, exactly, is the difference between dating and marriage if they are both such loose commitments?

Well, if it does work out forever (as is the hope for most people I assume) then there are plenty of legal benefits that married couples enjoy. And it isn't a "loose" commitment. Divorce is "easy", but it often isn't simple. The idea that two people should stay together even if both are unhappy is an unhealthy one in my opinion.


As a child whose parents stayed togetherfor years "for the kids" I can support that statement.

Do you think it is good for a kid to wake up at 3 am only to listen to his mother crying on a regular basis? I know the damage it did to my parents, and my mother never recovered. And there was no abuse in the relationship, no questions in the divorce, and they got along well after (though have had little contact as the kids grew up).

I have nothing but contempt for people that want to force me through that for years longer.

As for comparing it to an informal relationship, it may have the same requirements to end, but a divorce is never simple and I don't know anyone who took it as an easy decision.
 
2014-01-15 03:42:26 PM  

lennavan: jst3p: How is your marriage less valued because othrer people get divorced?

We've been over this.

jst3p: in reality that "till death" part is decoration, not part of the meaning of the word anymore?


How does the fact that many people don't adhere to the "till death" vow affect your marriage at all?
 
2014-01-15 03:45:34 PM  

lennavan: jst3p: Well, if it does work out forever (as is the hope for most people I assume) then there are plenty of legal benefits that married couples enjoy.

I'm all for non-married couples being allowed to enjoy those benefits a la carte.

jst3p: For you that is great. If Brittany Spears gets married then divorced in the same weekend how has that affected you at all?

It devalues the word marriage.  If people pick and choose what marriage means, then it means nothing.  Right now, when my wife is in the hospital and I show up and say "I'm her husband" the doctor knows that means I have made a legal obligation to care for her in many ways including financially for the rest of my life.  Because of that, the doctor will share her information with me and allow me to make medical decisions for her.  If marriage becomes meaningless, then those societal "perks" will begin to erode.

I don't care what you do or what you want to do.  Here, I am arguing words have meaning, the word marriage has a meaning and if you too would like to utilize that word to describe yourself, then you need to follow the minimum requirements of that meaning.  By all means, if you don't like it, do as you please but you don't get to change the meaning of words.


Marriage has a meaning. Look up your local statutes and/or case history.

And divorce is part of that.

And divorce doesn't necessarily remove those onligations you speak of. Even if a person gets divorced who financially supported their spouse, they will continue to support the spouse through alimony.
 
2014-01-15 03:47:25 PM  

vicioushobbit: Why are people against letting individuals work together during a time of a marriage dissolving? Are we this desperate for sensational news?


I'm not against divorce.  If you are currently married and unhappy to the point of wanting one, you should get one.  I'm for people spending some thought before entering a marriage.  I'm for people thinking marriage should be intended forever and means more than just in a relationship.

Instead you get people who think marriage is the same thing as a relationship and it's just a meaningless piece of paper so they marry on a whim and divorce on a whim.  Then you skip forward a few decades of that and hey this is my wife is the equivalent of this is just some chick of the moment who might be gone tomorrow and suddenly in society being married is meaningless.

I'm for words having meaning.  I think married has a meaning, I think wife/husband has a meaning and I think those meanings should remain.

vicioushobbit: But it took counseling for me to be able look at the possibility, because I WAS looking at it "Til death do us part", and was miserable in my existence.


That's as far as my opinion takes me.  You went in thinking it WAS til death do us part.  Not everyone goes in that way.  Look through this thread for some alternative views such as "it only means whatever you want it to mean" or "marriage means married, nothing more" or there is no difference between relationship and marriage.

vicioushobbit: My rambling point is this: Just because you think no-fault divorces are a bad thing, doesn't mean that they are.


In your case, your husband was a dick and that is a bad thing.  He was at fault and presumably you filed "no-fault" because it was easier.  When I think "no-fault" I think "we grew apart."  "We grew apart" means we didn't try.  We means both of us because both have to try.

vicioushobbit: He showed no intention of trying


He's at fault.  There was no hope, this is why I'm all for divorce.

vicioushobbit: Now happily married, to a man who is a considerate partner.


Right, and presumably you are working toward making this second marriage being forever.  If you intend and act in a manner that works towards being together forever, then you're doing things perfectly.  If you got re-married thinking "eh, we'll be together til things don't work out because these things happen" then I'm suggesting you shouldn't have gotten remarried and simply stayed in a long-term committed relationship.
 
2014-01-15 03:48:17 PM  

dywed88: And divorce doesn't necessarily remove those onligations you speak of. Even if a person gets divorced who financially supported their spouse, they will continue to support the spouse through alimony.


Thank goodness not always.


/she should have gotten a lawyer
 
2014-01-15 03:52:29 PM  

lennavan: jst3p: The minimum requirements are going to the courthouse and getting a piece of paper signed. I did that. Twice. I met your standard.

Was it just any random blank piece of paper?  Or perhaps are you being dishonest in your summary here?

jst3p: While I was married I was no less her husband than you are to your wife.

I'm not saying you were.

jst3p: Divorce doesn't make marriage meaningless.

A pretty decent definition of the word divorce would be "to render a marriage null/void/meaningless."  So uh, yeah it does.  Divorce doesn't make the relationship meaningless.


That would be an annullment, which litterally says "this marriage never happened). A divorce ends it on a go forward basis and many implications remain after a divorce.
 
2014-01-15 03:52:56 PM  

vicioushobbit: My (best) counselor once told me, people grow and change as they get older. The younger you marry, the more likelihood of growing in opposite directions. The goal is that the partners will grow alongside each other, compliment and enhance each other. But what DOES often happen, is one person grows slightly in a different direction, and maybe it's on a topic that the other is hard-lined on. If you cannot work in your relationship to grow together, if you are past that point, it's better to move on and find somebody with whom you CAN grow.


This I think is the most important part of your post.  There are a lot of things that should happen before you get married.

1) You gotta know yourself and where you're going
2) Your partner has to know themselves and where they are going
3) You gotta know each other and where each other is going
4) You gotta enter the marriage with the intention of growing together and working together
5) While you are married, you gotta constantly put in the effort

If you meet all of those criteria, you should get married.  Not all of those marriages will work out, yay for divorce.  What I'm arguing in this thread is I think most of the divorces are a result of not meeting those criteria and people would do well to stay as long term committed partners and hold off getting married until they do.  Now of course you can never meet all of those criteria perfectly but you should probably give it a decent try.  I'm not suggesting we police it or legislate it, I'm suggesting I post that opinion on an internet forum, other people read it and maybe hold off getting married until they know things like what career path they're going on.
 
2014-01-15 03:53:05 PM  

lennavan: Dipshiat


Mods? Nothing? This isn't his first time.
 
2014-01-15 03:55:07 PM  

jst3p: lennavan: jst3p: How is your marriage less valued because othrer people get divorced?

We've been over this.

jst3p: in reality that "till death" part is decoration, not part of the meaning of the word anymore?

How does the fact that many people don't adhere to the "till death" vow affect your marriage at all?


It affects society's perception of my marriage.  You might remember my college degree analogy.
 
2014-01-15 03:55:28 PM  
lennavan:

In your case, your husband was a dick and that is a bad thing.  He was at fault and presumably you filed "no-fault" because it was easier.  When I think "no-fault" I think "we grew apart.""We grew apart" means we didn't try.  We means both of us because both have to try.

 And I am asking you to rethink that, because based upon my experience and those I know who filed no-fault, it wasn't because they didn't try, it's because it was faster, cheaper, and caused least amount of damage to their families/kids.
 
2014-01-15 03:56:25 PM  

lennavan: jst3p: lennavan: jst3p: How is your marriage less valued because othrer people get divorced?

We've been over this.

jst3p: in reality that "till death" part is decoration, not part of the meaning of the word anymore?

How does the fact that many people don't adhere to the "till death" vow affect your marriage at all?

It affects society's perception of my marriage.  You might remember my college degree analogy.


You really care too much about what other people think about your marriage.
 
2014-01-15 03:57:08 PM  

dywed88: Marriage has a meaning. Look up your local statutes and/or case history.


I cannot tell you how many times in this thread I have attempted to argue that.  Yet the people you just sided with have been arguing marriage means whatever you want it to mean, or marriage means "married" and nothing more.

I cannot tell you how happy I am to have you on my side.  I just wanted you to know that we agree.
 
2014-01-15 03:59:10 PM  

lennavan: jst3p: lennavan: jst3p: How is your marriage less valued because othrer people get divorced?

We've been over this.

jst3p: in reality that "till death" part is decoration, not part of the meaning of the word anymore?

How does the fact that many people don't adhere to the "till death" vow affect your marriage at all?

It affects society's perception of my marriage.  You might remember my college degree analogy.


And that harms you or your marriage how specifically? In your bad college degree analogy someone with that degree will have a harder time getting a job.
 
2014-01-15 04:00:30 PM  

lennavan: dywed88: Marriage has a meaning. Look up your local statutes and/or case history.

I cannot tell you how many times in this thread I have attempted to argue that.  Yet the people you just sided with have been arguing marriage means whatever you want it to mean, or marriage means "married" and nothing more.


Your claim is that marriage should be till death. No law requires this.
 
2014-01-15 04:02:42 PM  

vicioushobbit: And I am asking you to rethink that, because based upon my experience


In your experience, he was clearly at fault and you filed no-fault because it was easier for you.  I don't know why that would make me rethink it.

vicioushobbit: You really care too much about what other people think about your marriage.


You care too, you just aren't willing to admit it.  That's why you introduce him as your husband to other people, that's why you had a wedding and invited people.  That's why when you or your husband is in the hospital, the first thing out of your mouth will be "I'm his wife."  Because you want those people to know you are married and what that means and you also know if you tell the doctor you're just his partner, you'll be kindly escorted to the waiting room.
 
2014-01-15 04:03:32 PM  

jst3p: Your claim is that marriage should be till death. No law requires this.


If the "till death" part of the contract is invalid, then why isn't the "50/50 split regardless of fault" part invalid as well?
 
2014-01-15 04:04:28 PM  

lennavan: vicioushobbit: And I am asking you to rethink that, because based upon my experience

In your experience, he was clearly at fault and you filed no-fault because it was easier for you.  I don't know why that would make me rethink it.

vicioushobbit: You really care too much about what other people think about your marriage.

You care too, you just aren't willing to admit it.  That's why you introduce him as your husband to other people, that's why you had a wedding and invited people.  That's why when you or your husband is in the hospital, the first thing out of your mouth will be "I'm his wife."  Because you want those people to know you are married and what that means and you also know if you tell the doctor you're just his partner, you'll be kindly escorted to the waiting room.


Ok, I'm not going to argue with you about your perception of what goes on in my head.

Fark off, busybody troll.
 
2014-01-15 04:06:13 PM  

jst3p: Your claim is that marriage should be till death. No law requires this.


Yes, even though I have probably stated at least a dozen times in this thread I am perfectly fine with divorce, my position can be summarized as "marriage should be until death."

The laws say nothing about the "til death part."  The timeline is completely up in the air.  That's why on the marriage form I filled out, they had a "how long do you want to be married" fill in the blank.  I put "til I get bored."  What did you put?
 
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