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(Politics UK)   No-fault divorce makes splitting up too easy say judges, who want to hang a critical "bad-thinking" clause on at least one half of the couples and shame them for it   (politics.co.uk) divider line 407
    More: Interesting, Tory MPs, couples, Westminster Hall  
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7019 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Jan 2014 at 10:09 AM (28 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-15 12:54:15 PM
It devalues the word marriage.

DRINK!

 
2014-01-15 12:55:13 PM

Dr Dreidel: alice_600: I know in my church you have to take a class in order to get married in a church wedding also have to be going to church on Sunday for a few month.
So if we want to give blame here let's blame secularism for making it so easy since they are the ones who run the Las Vegas drive though weddings

So what? That's about STARTING the marriage; we're discussing what does or should happen when they END the marriage.

// unless...are you saying that that same priest/holyperson should be the one doing the moralizing when they apply for divorce?
// I've seen what happens to religious folk when they have unhappy marriages - same things that happen in secular marriages that fall apart: sometimes it's like a gentle breeze briefly upsetting a sheaf of papers, sometimes it's an F5 tornado that levels a town
// so I don't think "secularism" is to blave either


The classes are taught by a social worker who who works for "Lutheran Child and Family services," Someone comes to the church and teach how to make a lasting marriage. How to stay faithful to each other, solve disputes and argue fair.
 
2014-01-15 12:55:59 PM

Gothnet: Sometimes people drift apart regardless of best intentions


It's really farking sad that you think marriage is about intentions rather than effort or actions.  Sorry, I totally intended to give a shiat about you, it just didn't happen.  Oh well.

Gothnet: forcing them to stay together


You dipshiat, I'm not for less people getting divorced, I'm for less people getting married.
 
2014-01-15 12:56:13 PM

lennavan: jst3p: Well, if it does work out forever (as is the hope for most people I assume) then there are plenty of legal benefits that married couples enjoy.

I'm all for non-married couples being allowed to enjoy those benefits a la carte.

jst3p: For you that is great. If Brittany Spears gets married then divorced in the same weekend how has that affected you at all?

It devalues the word marriage.  If people pick and choose what marriage means, then it means nothing.  Right now, when my wife is in the hospital and I show up and say "I'm her husband" the doctor knows that means I have made a legal obligation to care for her in many ways including financially for the rest of my life.  Because of that, the doctor will share her information with me and allow me to make medical decisions for her.  If marriage becomes meaningless, then those societal "perks" will begin to erode.

I don't care what you do or what you want to do.  Here, I am arguing words have meaning, the word marriage has a meaning and if you too would like to utilize that word to describe yourself, then you need to follow the minimum requirements of that meaning.  By all means, if you don't like it, do as you please but you don't get to change the meaning of words.



The minimum requirements are going to the courthouse and getting a piece of paper signed. I did that. Twice. I met your standard. While I was married I was no less her husband than you are to your wife. Divorce doesn't make marriage meaningless.
 
2014-01-15 12:58:07 PM

Satan's Bunny Slippers: jcb274:   But there seems to be tremendous hurt and pain, even mentioned in this thread, that could have been avoided by showing more discretion about marriage.  Is it bad to ask for that?

Might as well as for strawberry flavored unicorn piss.

Look, your ideal isn't a bad one, but when it comes to "lets shame people for their decisions", well that's just overstepping the bounds of just about everything and heading back to arranged marriages and the like.  It really is.  Just because you look at things one way, doesn't mean everyone has to see things your way.  And I don't know anyone who got married thinking "hey, I'll just get divorced later, no big deal".  Not even me, and I've been divorced twice as well.  Neither were no fault, just so you know.

But if a couple has a situation that while they don't want to continue to be married, yet neither has a desire to drag all their dirty laundry out into the open, who are you to say they must be forced to?

See what I'm getting at?


So a happy relationship that people entered into after a mature, mutual understanding of each other that serves as the foundation for a happy life is now as unlikely as "strawberry flavored unicorn piss?"  That illustrates my point exactly.  By and large, marriage has become a joke to the point where I get crap for suggesting that it shouldn't be a joke.

Further, I realize I'm commenting against the grain of "those crazy Tories," but I never said I supported the MP in the article.  Shaming people who get divorces is not a remedy for what I perceive as a lack of commitment when a couple is getting married.
 
2014-01-15 12:58:35 PM

jcb274: Yeah.  Why would I tie myself to that absolute?  There are probably plenty of marriages filled with toxic terrible people that shouldn't be together.  My real point is that we commit to marriage without really  committingto it.  And maybe if we did, people would be a little happier in their relationships.


It took a lot of thought  before I decided to divorce my kids mom. But in talking to several peers whose parents stayed together "for the kid" it became apparent to me that staying together in a bitter loveless co-existence was likely to be more toxic than divorce.

I don't know that I made the right choice but I think and hope so, for their sake and for mine.
 
2014-01-15 12:59:15 PM

Satan's Bunny Slippers: It devalues the word marriage.

DRINK!


Seriously, I thought the gay marriage thread was over there.
 
2014-01-15 12:59:54 PM

jst3p: I don't know how you figure I shouldn't have gotten married because I got divorced


Well, you shouldn't have gotten married because... you got divorced.  When you got married, it was a contract until you died.  When you got divorced, you told a judge you were wrong about that whole until death bit and you didn't want that contract anymore.

jst3p: Both marriages relationships are part of what made me the person I am today, one gave me two great children


FTFY.  I'm not against relationships, even long-term committed ones.

jst3p: I am in a happy committed (though no marriage likely)


Why aren't you going to get married?  Because you realized you shouldn't have gotten married in those first two, right?
 
2014-01-15 01:01:54 PM

lennavan: It's really farking sad that you think marriage is about intentions rather than effort or actions. Sorry, I totally intended to give a shiat about you, it just didn't happen. Oh well.


It might have happened for 30 years, and then stopped. People are odd like that. That you would judge a multi-decade commitment as a waste of time and wrong to embark upon is bizarre and judgemental.

lennavan: You dipshiat, I'm not for less people getting divorced, I'm for less people getting married.


I didn't say you were for less divorce you pompous twat, that's what TFA is about. I said your views were judgemental and bizarre. And I stand by it.
 
2014-01-15 01:02:17 PM
jcb274:
So a happy relationship that people entered into after a mature, mutual understanding of each other that serves as the foundation for a happy life is now as unlikely as "strawberry flavored unicorn piss?"  That illustrates my point exactly.  By and large, marriage has become a joke to the point where I get crap for suggesting that it shouldn't be a joke.

Further, I realize I'm commenting against the grain of "those crazy Tories," but I never said I supported the MP in the article.  Shaming people who get divorces is not a remedy for what I perceive as a lack of commitment when a couple is getting married.


No.  Who are you to say what constitutes an acceptable degree of "mature, mutual understanding"?

You are the one who says marriage has become a joke.  I am divorced. So then, how dare you devalue me and my decisions to marry? By what delineation am I a failure to you?

Show your work.
 
2014-01-15 01:02:25 PM

jst3p: jcb274: Yeah.  Why would I tie myself to that absolute?  There are probably plenty of marriages filled with toxic terrible people that shouldn't be together.  My real point is that we commit to marriage without really  committingto it.  And maybe if we did, people would be a little happier in their relationships.

It took a lot of thought  before I decided to divorce my kids mom. But in talking to several peers whose parents stayed together "for the kid" it became apparent to me that staying together in a bitter loveless co-existence was likely to be more toxic than divorce.

I don't know that I made the right choice but I think and hope so, for their sake and for mine.


Well of course I hope you made the right choice too.  I'm sure it was an incredibly difficult decision and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.  And I wouldn't assume that you are a person who didn't put in the effort to make sure that the relationship is going to work.  But I think we can agree that there are lots of people who don't put the work in before or during a marriage and end up "after" one.
 
2014-01-15 01:02:42 PM

jcb274: So a happy relationship that people entered into after a mature, mutual understanding of each other that serves as the foundation for a happy life is now as unlikely as "strawberry flavored unicorn piss?"  That illustrates my point exactly.  By and large, marriage has become a joke to the point where I get crap for suggesting that it shouldn't be a joke.


You make good point. On the other hand there are many scientists who conclude that lifetime monogamy among humans is a forced societal structure rather than a natural state.
 
2014-01-15 01:04:08 PM

jst3p: The minimum requirements are going to the courthouse and getting a piece of paper signed. I did that. Twice. I met your standard.


Was it just any random blank piece of paper?  Or perhaps are you being dishonest in your summary here?

jst3p: While I was married I was no less her husband than you are to your wife.


I'm not saying you were.

jst3p: Divorce doesn't make marriage meaningless.


A pretty decent definition of the word divorce would be "to render a marriage null/void/meaningless."  So uh, yeah it does.  Divorce doesn't make the relationship meaningless.
 
2014-01-15 01:06:43 PM

lennavan: jst3p: I don't know how you figure I shouldn't have gotten married because I got divorced

Well, you shouldn't have gotten married because... you got divorced.


I normally like you but this is one of the dumbest things I have seen in awhile. Getting divorced isn't saying I don't think I should have gotten married. It is saying I don't want to be in this marriage any longer. An annulment is saying "I never should have been married".


jst3p: I am in a happy committed (though no marriage likely)

Why aren't you going to get married?  Because you realized you shouldn't have gotten married in those first two, right?


Not at all. It has more to do with co-mingling finances when we both have kids but none common. We are both high wage earners and it is simpler to remain unmarried.
 
2014-01-15 01:07:21 PM

jst3p: Satan's Bunny Slippers: It devalues the word marriage.

DRINK!

Seriously, I thought the gay marriage thread was over there.


Oh, okay so you disagree that this devalues the word marriage.  Got it.

jst3p: jcb274: So a happy relationship that people entered into after a mature, mutual understanding of each other that serves as the foundation for a happy life is now as unlikely as "strawberry flavored unicorn piss?" That illustrates my point exactly. By and large, marriage has become a joke to the point where I get crap for suggesting that it shouldn't be a joke.

You make good point
.


Oh, okay, so you agree this devalues the word marriage.  Wait, what?
 
2014-01-15 01:07:51 PM

lennavan: A pretty decent definition of the word divorce would be "to render a marriage null/void/meaningless." So uh, yeah it does. Divorce doesn't make the relationship meaningless.


Meh. Marriage is a scoail construct and means what we want it to mean.

I'm sorry you're upset that we're moving to a time when it means what the two people in the marriage say it means instead of what's imposed on them by society,
 
2014-01-15 01:08:34 PM

Satan's Bunny Slippers: People get married and divorced.  Sometimes for reasons others don't agree with/approve of.  So farking what?  Since when is peer approval of a marriage or divorce required?

Whole lotta judgmental nellies ITT who think that whatever THEY believe is what the rest of the population should do.

Fark that.


THIS.
 
2014-01-15 01:08:46 PM
lennavan:

A pretty decent definition of the word divorce would be "to render a marriage null/void/meaningless."  So uh, yeah it does.  Divorce doesn't make the relationship meaningless.

No.

Divorce =/= Annulment

Divorce (or the  dissolution of marriage) is the termination of a marital union, the canceling and/or reorganizing of the legal duties and responsibilities of marriage, thus dissolving the bonds of matrimony between a married couple under the rule of law of the particular country/state.

Divorce is unlike annulment, which declares the marriage null and void.
 
2014-01-15 01:09:23 PM

lennavan: jst3p: While I was married I was no less her husband than you are to your wife.

I'm not saying you were.


I'm saying your saying so doesn't make it true.

lennavan: jst3p: Divorce doesn't make marriage meaningless.

A pretty decent definition of the word divorce would be "to render a marriage null/void/meaningless."  So uh, yeah it does.


Now you are just being silly (I am trying to be nice because I still like you). My divorce doesn't make the word "marriage" meaningless. My divorce doesn't even make my marriage meaningless. Like I said, I learned a lot that changed who I am today because of those marriage and divorces.
 
2014-01-15 01:09:58 PM

alice_600: The classes are taught by a social worker who who works for "Lutheran Child and Family services," Someone comes to the church and teach how to make a lasting marriage. How to stay faithful to each other, solve disputes and argue fair.


Even though I've never tried to get married, church or not, I managed to learn some of those things on my own. It took several years of dating and cohabitation, but I learned. (And I've heard of such things before - they range from "here's what the Bible says about marriage: 'Be faithful; god's watching.' Now have fun, you crazy kids!" to "Leading relationship experts have the following 64,872 tips on how to nurture a successful, long-term relationship...")

Also, none of that has any bearing on why it should be OK - or mandatory - for a judge to reprimand people for daring to dissolve their union.
 
2014-01-15 01:10:30 PM

lennavan: Oh, okay, so you agree this devalues the word marriage.  Wait, what?


I meant the former part not the latter.
 
2014-01-15 01:10:53 PM

Gothnet: alice_600: Because some parents like what happened to my dad and my Mom should be tried for fraud and child abuse. My Mom had untreated psychological issues was forced to quit high school and his mother in law didn't tell him of the abuse in the family she just made it look like one big shiny happy Beaver Cleaverville. Also my Mom's age when she got married was 16, he was 21. Normally we would be in an uproar if we heard that in this modern age.
My Dad didn't grow a pair and tell his mother to get out of their house and leave my Mom alone. So she shares some blame in this marriage failing by not realizing her son is a man now and she needs to a get a life too.

You want my Opinion here is how I think it should be.

If you want to get married before 25 you need to be 18, have a drivers licence and at least an associates degree. You must attend six months of couples counselling, marriage classes, and parenting classes, (miss more than 3 classes of any combo you have to start all over again) submit to a drug and STDs test and then wam wedding day!

Or we could make divorce easier and remove the social stigma, so people like your folks didn't feel forced to stay together when everything was obviously farked beyond recognition.

I'm sorry for your bad experiences, but I'm not sure that making marriage even more of a binding social contract would really help.

Also what about people who like drugs or don't want kids? No marriage for them?


Hey Gothnet did you see what I did there?
In my made up marriage law I made it so that when you did divorce it wouldn't be that much of a financial burden for both parties possibly eliminating the need for child support.
They are educated enough by that they get the skills they need to make the marriage work. Make it more hurdles for them to jump over they start to see the other guy for who they really are. Making you double think about getting married.
But then again there will always be a stigma to anything because people are assholes.
 
2014-01-15 01:11:31 PM

jst3p: Not at all. It has more to do with co-mingling finances when we both have kids but none common. We are both high wage earners and it is simpler to remain unmarried.


Also known as marriage has meaning and you made a conscious decision that the meaning did not fit your desires.

jst3p: Getting divorced isn't saying I don't think I should have gotten married. It is saying I don't want to be in this marriage any longer. An annulment is saying "I never should have been married".


No, an annulment is saying "I was never married."  If you're admitting you were married, that's a divorce.
 
2014-01-15 01:12:13 PM

Gothnet: lennavan: A pretty decent definition of the word divorce would be "to render a marriage null/void/meaningless." So uh, yeah it does. Divorce doesn't make the relationship meaningless.

Meh. Marriage is a scoail construct and means what we want it to mean.

I'm sorry you're upset that we're moving to a time when it means what the two people in the marriage say it means instead of what's imposed on them by society,


This. More people should focus on their own family and not get so worked up about what others do if it doesn't affect them.
 
2014-01-15 01:13:13 PM

Dr Dreidel: alice_600: The classes are taught by a social worker who who works for "Lutheran Child and Family services," Someone comes to the church and teach how to make a lasting marriage. How to stay faithful to each other, solve disputes and argue fair.

Even though I've never tried to get married, church or not, I managed to learn some of those things on my own. It took several years of dating and cohabitation, but I learned. (And I've heard of such things before - they range from "here's what the Bible says about marriage: 'Be faithful; god's watching.' Now have fun, you crazy kids!" to "Leading relationship experts have the following 64,872 tips on how to nurture a successful, long-term relationship...")

Also, none of that has any bearing on why it should be OK - or mandatory - for a judge to reprimand people for daring to dissolve their union.


I was just saying we should do more to prevent divorce. It's really too easy for people to get married.
 
2014-01-15 01:13:20 PM

Gothnet: Meh. Marriage is a scoail construct and means what we want it to mean.


While you have your opinion and will no doubt clearly stick to it, you might want to read up on the relevant state laws before you get married.  Whether you want marriage to mean something or not won't help you in court.

Gothnet: I'm sorry you're upset that we're moving to a time when it means what the two people in the marriage say it means instead of what's imposed on them by society,


It doesn't matter how much you stomp your feet in court, there are state and federal laws that help define what marriage means.  Your opinion has no bearing on reality.
 
2014-01-15 01:15:05 PM

lennavan: Gothnet: Meh. Marriage is a scoail construct and means what we want it to mean.

While you have your opinion and will no doubt clearly stick to it, you might want to read up on the relevant state laws before you get married.  Whether you want marriage to mean something or not won't help you in court.

Gothnet: I'm sorry you're upset that we're moving to a time when it means what the two people in the marriage say it means instead of what's imposed on them by society,

It doesn't matter how much you stomp your feet in court, there are state and federal laws that help define what marriage means.  Your opinion has no bearing on reality.


BTW goths are kinda...last century.
 
2014-01-15 01:15:11 PM

jst3p: This. More people should focus on their own family and not get so worked up about what others do if it doesn't affect them.


Says the guy who wrote:

jst3p: This, I had to wait three months to get divorced, but I could get married tomorrow if I wanted to. The waiting period is on the wrong part of the process.

You do realize, you and I are arguing the exact same thing.  I'm just more open and honest about it.
 
2014-01-15 01:15:16 PM

lennavan: jst3p: Not at all. It has more to do with co-mingling finances when we both have kids but none common. We are both high wage earners and it is simpler to remain unmarried.

Also known as marriage has meaning and you made a conscious decision that the meaning did not fit your desires.


You are trying WAY too hard. It has nothing to do with the "meaning" of marriage and EVERYTHING to do with the legal aspects of it.

jst3p: Getting divorced isn't saying I don't think I should have gotten married. It is saying I don't want to be in this marriage any longer. An annulment is saying "I never should have been married".

No, an annulment is saying "I was never married."  If you're admitting you were married, that's a divorce.


That does not make divorce mean "I should have gotten married".

You seem to like to tell others what they should feel about something. When I got divorced I never once thought "I should not have been married." I was saying, quite simply, "I don't want to be in this marriage any longer."
 
2014-01-15 01:16:28 PM

Satan's Bunny Slippers: jcb274:
So a happy relationship that people entered into after a mature, mutual understanding of each other that serves as the foundation for a happy life is now as unlikely as "strawberry flavored unicorn piss?"  That illustrates my point exactly.  By and large, marriage has become a joke to the point where I get crap for suggesting that it shouldn't be a joke.

Further, I realize I'm commenting against the grain of "those crazy Tories," but I never said I supported the MP in the article.  Shaming people who get divorces is not a remedy for what I perceive as a lack of commitment when a couple is getting married.

No.  Who are you to say what constitutes an acceptable degree of "mature, mutual understanding"?

You are the one who says marriage has become a joke.  I am divorced. So then, how dare you devalue me and my decisions to marry? By what delineation am I a failure to you?

Show your work.


I don't know anything about you or your marriage.  So it's pretty presumptuous to accuse me of calling you a failure.  But, if you feel that, in hindsight, you didn't know your partner well enough to marry them, then by your own definition, you did not have that "mature, mutual understanding" that you should have had before you got married.   It's okay to admit that you regret one decision and wish you had made another, if that's the case.  It's also okay to want people to be as prepared as possible before making a decision that they may regret.  A lot of people are wholly unprepared to make that decision, and a lot of people are hurt because they, by their own definition, made the "wrong" one.  Is it wrong to want peopleto make decisions that lead to them being happy?
 
2014-01-15 01:17:38 PM

jst3p: Now you are just being silly (I am trying to be nice because I still like you). My divorce doesn't make the word "marriage" meaningless.


No your single individual divorce doesn't.  But a 50%+ countrywide divorce rate does.  Two people get married and promise to be together until death.  Wanna know how much that promise is worth?  Flip a coin.

jst3p: My divorce doesn't even make my marriage meaningless. Like I said, I learned a lot that changed who I am today because of those marriage and divorces


You are conflating the word "marriage" with "relationship" again.  You should stop.
 
2014-01-15 01:18:36 PM

lennavan: jst3p: This, I had to wait three months to get divorced, but I could get married tomorrow if I wanted to. The waiting period is on the wrong part of the process.

You do realize, you and I are arguing the exact same thing.  I'm just more open and honest about it.


That would be fine, until you try and tell me what marriage should "mean" to me. It is a social construct and there are laws that define what a marriage is. Legally my marriages are no more or less valid than yours. If you think your marriage "means" more, knock yourself out but when you try and tell me what it should "mean" to me I am going to tell you to pound sand.
 
2014-01-15 01:18:41 PM

jst3p: It has nothing to do with the "meaning" of marriage and EVERYTHING to do with the legal aspects of it.


How the fark are those different things in your mind?  In your mind, marriage means something and has nothing at all to do with the legal aspects?  One of us is being "silly" that's for sure.
 
2014-01-15 01:19:56 PM

lennavan: jst3p: Now you are just being silly (I am trying to be nice because I still like you). My divorce doesn't make the word "marriage" meaningless.

No your single individual divorce doesn't.  But a 50%+ countrywide divorce rate does.  Two people get married and promise to be together until death.  Wanna know how much that promise is worth?  Flip a coin.


Pretty strong indicator that we aren't meant to be monogamous for life, eh?

jst3p: My divorce doesn't even make my marriage meaningless. Like I said, I learned a lot that changed who I am today because of those marriage and divorces

You are conflating the word "marriage" with "relationship" again.  You should stop.


I have marriage certificates and the marriages are a matter of public record. They were marriages.
 
2014-01-15 01:20:12 PM

Dr Dreidel: Also, none of that has any bearing on why it should be OK - or mandatory - for a judge to reprimand people for daring to dissolve their union.


Seems to be just another example of conservatives of one stripe or another harkening back to a golden age that never existed. Whether it was through mistresses, milkmen, or any number of other ways and means, people have always managed to find a way to get the attention they desire if they're not getting it in their marriage. No fault divorce just made it easy to not have to stay in the miserable marriage in the first place.

But, it's not the actual marriages themselves that is concerning to these people. It's the appearance that matters. Making it more difficult to get divorced is probably likely to reduce the number of divorces simply due to some people not wanting to get slapped with a "reprimand" if they do so. That's the aim, even if it means those people have to stay in loveless marriages to make it happen.
 
2014-01-15 01:20:54 PM

lennavan: jst3p: It has nothing to do with the "meaning" of marriage and EVERYTHING to do with the legal aspects of it.

How the fark are those different things in your mind?  In your mind, marriage means something and has nothing at all to do with the legal aspects?  One of us is being "silly" that's for sure.


You have to this point done a HORRIBLE job of articulating what is in my mind. This post is no exception.
 
2014-01-15 01:22:07 PM

jst3p: That would be fine, until you try and tell me what marriage should "mean" to me.


I will try my best.  Here I go.  The definition of marriage should include amongst other things the legal, financial ties to each other.

jst3p: It has nothing to do with the "meaning" of marriage and EVERYTHING to do with the legal aspects of it.


Oh, okay you think the meaning of marriage has nothing to do with the legal aspects.  So why again aren't you getting married to your current long-term girlfriend?

jst3p: It has more to do with co-mingling finances


Ah, right, the legal financial aspects.  Well, all along you have been arguing we should all be able to define marriage however we like.  Why don't you and your girlfriend just define marriage to not mean co-mingling finances and get married?
 
2014-01-15 01:22:21 PM

jcb274: Satan's Bunny Slippers: jcb274:
So a happy relationship that people entered into after a mature, mutual understanding of each other that serves as the foundation for a happy life is now as unlikely as "strawberry flavored unicorn piss?"  That illustrates my point exactly.  By and large, marriage has become a joke to the point where I get crap for suggesting that it shouldn't be a joke.

Further, I realize I'm commenting against the grain of "those crazy Tories," but I never said I supported the MP in the article.  Shaming people who get divorces is not a remedy for what I perceive as a lack of commitment when a couple is getting married.

No.  Who are you to say what constitutes an acceptable degree of "mature, mutual understanding"?

You are the one who says marriage has become a joke.  I am divorced. So then, how dare you devalue me and my decisions to marry? By what delineation am I a failure to you?

Show your work.

I don't know anything about you or your marriage.  So it's pretty presumptuous to accuse me of calling you a failure.  But, if you feel that, in hindsight, you didn't know your partner well enough to marry them, then by your own definition, you did not have that "mature, mutual understanding" that you should have had before you got married.   It's okay to admit that you regret one decision and wish you had made another, if that's the case.  It's also okay to want people to be as prepared as possible before making a decision that they may regret.  A lot of people are wholly unprepared to make that decision, and a lot of people are hurt because they, by their own definition, made the "wrong" one.  Is it wrong to want peopleto make decisions that lead to them being happy?


I'm glad you're so all knowing of what a marriage should be.  You are presumptuous in that you seem to think that you know what's best for all people considering marriage. Pompous, even.  And your seeming to think that people make conscious decisions that will eventually make them unhappy is even moreso.  You seem to be as uneducated about the human condition as anyone I know.

I was not young, unprepared or stupid when I married.  Why you think I would regret anything is funny.

Good luck to you, sir/madam.  I hope that no one ever judges and publicly shames you for your choices.
 
2014-01-15 01:22:50 PM

Lady J: one of the symptoms of depression (as an example of a mental health problem) is unwillingness to talk about it. Lord J was depressed and it was months before he told me. When you feel shiat 24/7 about everything about yourself, you don't imagine that your stupid feelings are worth talking about, and a depressed person is also afraid how other people will respond. It doesnt make you a terrible person or an asshole. Have some compassion.


A healthy relationship requires good communication in order to thrive.  There is a balance that you have to maintain.  So while you may not want to talk about your depression, you at least need to acknowledge that you have depression.
 
2014-01-15 01:22:54 PM

vicioushobbit: mister aj: jst3p: vicioushobbit: mister aj: The ten years I speak of wasn't ten years of dating; if only. Ten years of marriage. I stuck around for the sake of young children, and for the sake of not losing half of my hard-earned wealth. After ten years of disrespect and piling on the pounds though, I just couldn't take it any more. Fortunately, Russian women have less hang-ups about sex and more respect for their body and their partner.

Yeah, still blanket statementing, dude.  10 years with 1 woman isn't the same as knowing all the women in a single nation, and you may have just gotten lucky with your current wife.  Getting married for citizenship isn't a new thing.

Less hangups about sex? The fark have you been going to meet women? I know plenty personally who have no problems with one night stands, kink, threesomes, etc, but who are also decent people who, when they find a good match, stick with that person.

You seem far more concerned with saving your money.  People who stay together "for the kids" end up doing more harm to those kids.  If you are suffering 10 years of unhappiness, and your kids see you and your wife going through it, who's teaching these kids what a real relationship looks like? They are learning by watching you.

/you should have quit after your Boobies, and just let us all think you were only being a troll.  That'd have ended better for you.

That's OK, after getting beat up here he can go home to his mail order bride and she can tell him what a smart man he really is.

Why talk when we can skip straight to sex? And, amazingly, sex without anybody insisting that the lights are off, or that I do the housework first, or any number of manipulative episodes of bullshiat.

Aaaaand the reason you had to get a mail-order bride is clear.
Such a keeper.  Grats to your wife for landing you.


I love that he calls American women whores, and then goes on to describe the personal whore he basically bought from Russia.
 
2014-01-15 01:23:33 PM

jst3p: jst3p: My divorce doesn't even make my marriage meaningless. Like I said, I learned a lot that changed who I am today because of those marriage and divorces

You are conflating the word "marriage" with "relationship" again. You should stop.

I have marriage certificates and the marriages are a matter of public record. They were marriages.



And yet it was the relationship bit and the children that made you who you are today.  Not the fact that you were married.  Your ex didn't get pregnant when you signed the piece of paper.
 
2014-01-15 01:24:11 PM

lennavan: Ah, right, the legal financial aspects.  Well, all along you have been arguing we should all be able to define marriage however we like.  Why don't you and your girlfriend just define marriage to not mean co-mingling finances and get married?


Because legally that is impossible...
 
2014-01-15 01:24:25 PM
Looks like we have some prescient farkers as loyal as Horton the Elephant.
 
2014-01-15 01:26:35 PM

lennavan: jst3p: jst3p: My divorce doesn't even make my marriage meaningless. Like I said, I learned a lot that changed who I am today because of those marriage and divorces

You are conflating the word "marriage" with "relationship" again. You should stop.

I have marriage certificates and the marriages are a matter of public record. They were marriages.

And yet it was the relationship bit and the children that made you who you are today.  Not the fact that you were married.  Your ex didn't get pregnant when you signed the piece of paper.


I refer to them as marriages because they were marriages. You making a distinction with no real difference.
 
2014-01-15 01:27:10 PM

Wingchild: We must defend the sanctity of marriage by forcing unhappy people to remain together past their breaking points. This action will have no ill consequence.


Especially not for any children who may be involved or the mental health of either partner. Oh, and let's "help" by shaming them when they do decide to call it quits.

Admitting that it didn't work is NOT admitting that you should never have gotten married. It's admitting that a lesson was learned and a chapter is ending.

Leave your moralizing at the door and MYOB.
 
2014-01-15 01:29:30 PM

jst3p: lennavan: Ah, right, the legal financial aspects.  Well, all along you have been arguing we should all be able to define marriage however we like.  Why don't you and your girlfriend just define marriage to not mean co-mingling finances and get married?

Because legally that is impossible...


Holy crap, welcome to my side of the conversation.

jst3p: That would be fine, until you try and tell me what marriage should "mean" to me


I'm not trying to tell you at all what your marriage should mean to you.  I'm telling you what it actually already does mean.  Or as I phrased it an hour ago:

As someone who said in the thread has been divorced twice, you will know darn well there are many things about marriage people don't get to decide for themselves.  I'm sure you are very familiar with the relevant laws.
 
2014-01-15 01:30:46 PM

jst3p: I refer to them as marriages because they were marriages. You making a distinction with no real difference.


You don't see the difference between the word marriage and relationship.  Meanwhile I'm arguing the word marriage is being devalued.  Thank you for making my point much more effectively than I think I ever could.
 
2014-01-15 01:33:11 PM

lennavan: I'm not trying to tell you at all what your marriage should mean to you.  I'm telling you what it actually already does mean.


If it has no meaning beyond the legal definition and that meaning is the same for everyone then you should have no issue with no fault divorce or frivolous marriages as they meet those legal definitions. You have come a long way from:

It devalues the word marriage.
 
2014-01-15 01:33:19 PM

jst3p: That would be fine, until you try and tell me what marriage should "mean" to me. It is a social construct and there are laws that define what a marriage is. Legally my marriages are no more or less valid than yours. If you think your marriage "means" more, knock yourself out but when you try and tell me what it should "mean" to me I am going to tell you to pound sand.


Out of curiosity, did you tell the judge to go pound sand during your divorce proceedings?  I mean, I never once said or thought your marriage was any less valid or meant any less or more.  I'm just telling you no matter how hard you pound that sand, there are state laws governing what marriage means.
 
2014-01-15 01:33:26 PM

lennavan: jst3p: I refer to them as marriages because they were marriages. You making a distinction with no real difference.

You don't see the difference between the word marriage and relationship.  Meanwhile I'm arguing the word marriage is being devalued.  Thank you for making my point much more effectively than I think I ever could.


How is it being devalued? You haven't made any coherent argument as to why divorce "devalues" marriage.
 
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