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(MLive.com)   Proponents of Michigan's new open-carry gun law say they're loving their new sense of freedom, and they just wish the cops would remember that open carry is now legal and not to stage high-risk takedowns every time there's a gun call   (mlive.com) divider line 509
    More: Followup, Grand Rapids Press, gun laws  
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2057 clicks; posted to Politics » on 14 Jan 2014 at 3:42 PM (45 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-14 05:58:03 PM  

rzrwiresunrise: Kit Fister: quizzical: No one should have to feel like they need a gun to navigate unmolested through society.

I agree. But until there's a drastic change in human behavior, I'll feel more comfortable keeping people at arm's length and being wary of them, and having a gun for the really bad ones, than I will trusting them.

Of course, I also fully admit that after basically getting trashed just because i was in the wrong place at the wrong time on the wrong people's "turf', along with a few other really shiatty things that happened that took advantage of my trust, I'm just not willing to trust anyone again.

You may be a good person. You may be a saint. But keep your hands where I can see them and stay out of my house.

This is not a basis for open-carry. Is your house the local Starbucks? The public library? A gas station?


What, you have to be in your house to tell someone to stay out of your house?  Vampires are going to love that.
 
2014-01-14 05:58:26 PM  

Weatherkiss: quizzical: No one should have to feel like they need a gun to navigate unmolested through society.

Correct. They shouldn't. But such is life. I'd love a utopian society where I wouldn't feel safer using a gun. I hate the fact a gun is the only thing that can make me feel safe. I work at a hospital and the last thing I desire to do is hurt or injure another person. But when reality doesn't give a shiat about what things should be like, you have to sometimes do things you really don't feel like you should have to do.


You are the type of person that should never have a gun.  You are paranoid and need some mental help.  I'm glad they don't let idiots like you carry in California.  A coward that can't go through life without a deadly weapon to try and scare people.
 
2014-01-14 05:59:08 PM  

Weatherkiss: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Well, you know, I've actually lived on this planet for a while and have known lots of people, so your little society lesson isn't big news. But what amuses is the sense that openly carried weapons is a 'courtesy' to let me know where people stand when I speak to them.

I'm far less likely to speak to them. Look at the fool in the movie theater, who shot a guy for texting. I'm... not going to deal with someone with a gun. I already figure they have a shrunken sense of self and, because I cannot trust our government to govern on this issue, have never adequately proven they have the mental wherewithal to tote something like that around.

So, you have a gun? I'm not even acknowledging you. If somehow we have to speak, I do so with fake reverence, then zip off. I'm pretty happy where I am, in my thriving, healthy, economically diverse city, where we actually have laws about this sort of thing. I'm happy not going to wherever people have to creep around showing off the guns they've bought. There's a reason Michigan is a shiathole. Not because of the guns, but they come from the same, disenfranchised, fearful place.

If I'm carrying a gun in public, it's because I want to run my errands and take care of business without being hassled. I don't openly carry a gun during social events. If I'm going to a bar or out with friends, I don't carry. Because it is a social event where I don't mind being bothered.

If I'm out and about with a daily agenda of things to get done, particularly if I have to go into an area I really don't like to be? I will carry. If someone sees me carry and doesn't want to talk to me, then that is better for the both of us. They're scared of me, and I don't feel like being social with them.

I don't do it to be malicious. I just want to be left the fark alone.


How many strangers accost you on a typical day when you aren't carrying?
 
2014-01-14 05:59:25 PM  

quiotu: CynicalLA: Weatherkiss: I'd rather be concerned with their attitudes than their actions. Using a gun deters their actions. Carrying a gun openly deters their attitude. I don't like being insulted or disrespected or treated as a potential target for financial or criminal gain. I was tired of being a victim of pushy, aggressive people. I got a gun. Now people aren't so pushy or aggressive with me anymore.

Wow, you must piss a lot of people off.

His idealism is also a complete and utter fallacy.  Statistics already show that someone owning a gun is actually MORE likely to be assaulted or challenged.  Having the gun isn't protecting you from the criminals, but rather daring them to come at you, if the statistics are to be believed.


So true but the gun nuts eat up all the fear.
 
2014-01-14 05:59:54 PM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: There's enough dog whistling in gun discussions that I know precisely who someone is depending on their view on the matter.  Sure, there are outliers, but they are very few and far between.

Race is a very, very powerful undercurrent in the devotion gun fans have to their instruments.  I know you'll try to deny it.  What animates the rest of us is a confusion why you guys perpetually feel your homes and womenfolk are going to be invaded by inner city blacks from Chicago at any minute.

But hey, I live in a big, densely populated city.  I actually deal with black people on a daily basis, sometimes with bad results.  I don't fear getting randomly shot by anybody in my pretty safe city, because I know there are other precautions rather than waddling around with a gun on my hip.  But then, my city is actually civil, despite any differences.  I am far more afraid, whenever I visit some red state, that the movie theater I'm entering might get shot up by one of you guys because of your inherent anger and other ugly emotions.

I think, legitimately, gun lobbies are energized nearly 98% by fear.


Except you don't know shiat about me, it turns out. For one, as I've mentioned, I don't carry, except when traveling between states, or when going to the gun range. The former because I will travel hundreds of miles without seeing a police officer or driving through a "civil city"(Whatever you mean by that), and the latter because it's easier, I don't end up with a concealed weapon, I don't have to make multiple trips to the car when I get to the range, or when I leave.

I have no problem going to the movies in a Red State. I might be a little concerned in Colorado(A Blue State), since that's where people tend to shoot each other. Weird how that happens.  Connecticut? That one's blue. So's Virginia. So I guess maybe just throwing the label around isn't such a good tactic for you.
 
2014-01-14 06:00:36 PM  

CynicalLA: You are the type of person that should never have a gun. You are paranoid and need some mental help. I'm glad they don't let idiots like you carry in California. A coward that can't go through life without a deadly weapon to try and scare people.


Ah, i love internet judgements based on some written statements and no actual experience with a person. :)
 
2014-01-14 06:00:56 PM  

Kit Fister: CynicalLA: So you admit to being a coward. You could have saved a lot of time.

Freely and openly. Happens when you nearly die at the hands of another. If you're looking for some sense of shame in that from me, you're not going to find one. :)


Ride that fear to then grave.  Sounds like a great life.
 
2014-01-14 06:01:15 PM  

quiotu: CynicalLA: Weatherkiss: I'd rather be concerned with their attitudes than their actions. Using a gun deters their actions. Carrying a gun openly deters their attitude. I don't like being insulted or disrespected or treated as a potential target for financial or criminal gain. I was tired of being a victim of pushy, aggressive people. I got a gun. Now people aren't so pushy or aggressive with me anymore.

Wow, you must piss a lot of people off.

His idealism is also a complete and utter fallacy.  Statistics already show that someone owning a gun is actually MORE likely to be assaulted or challenged.  Having the gun isn't protecting you from the criminals, but rather daring them to come at you, if the statistics are to be believed.


I'm a her.

Also, I don't give a shiat about your statistics because I've said multiple times it's not just to deter criminal acts. It's to force people who interact with you into recognizing that despite however small or weak you might seem, you have the ability to injure or kill them. It's a very visible social symbol the same as punks with stupid haircuts, tats, and piercings in their face. They show the rest of the world they want to be left alone by going against the social norm.

Carrying guns openly is a similar way to tell people around you to leave you the fark alone. I'm not Annie Oakley, I'm not going to shoot from the hip. But if I'm 'daring' any criminal to come at me, that criminal is going to think long and hard about whether or not the risk of harming me outweighs the odds of him getting injured or killed. Either that criminal will think about that, or they won't.

The gun minimizes risks, it does not eliminate them.
 
2014-01-14 06:01:54 PM  

Kit Fister: CynicalLA: You are the type of person that should never have a gun. You are paranoid and need some mental help. I'm glad they don't let idiots like you carry in California. A coward that can't go through life without a deadly weapon to try and scare people.

Ah, i love internet judgements based on some written statements and no actual experience with a person. :)


Do you read her statements about changing people's attitude when she openly carries?
 
2014-01-14 06:03:01 PM  

Weatherkiss: t's to force people who interact with you into recognizing that despite however small or weak you might seem, you have the ability to injure or kill them.


See, this a farking crazy person that should not have a weapon.
 
2014-01-14 06:03:26 PM  

CynicalLA: Ride that fear to then grave. Sounds like a great life.


Hasn't stopped me from skydiving, white-water rafting, seeing most of the US, Canada, Mexico, and Europe, and doing a hell of a lot else I enjoy doing. I just hate people, and don't want to deal with them.
 
2014-01-14 06:03:39 PM  

CynicalLA: Kit Fister: CynicalLA: So you admit to being a coward. You could have saved a lot of time.

Freely and openly. Happens when you nearly die at the hands of another. If you're looking for some sense of shame in that from me, you're not going to find one. :)

Ride that fear to then grave.  Sounds like a great life.


Of course his decision to carry has zero impact on your life. What's important here, though, is that you feel superior to him.
 
2014-01-14 06:04:01 PM  

CynicalLA: See, this a farking crazy person that should not have a weapon.


Yeah, that might be going just a little beyond rational...
 
2014-01-14 06:04:40 PM  

CynicalLA: Weatherkiss: t's to force people who interact with you into recognizing that despite however small or weak you might seem, you have the ability to injure or kill them.

See, this a farking crazy person that should not have a weapon.


Yeah, a same woman just let's the rape happen.
 
2014-01-14 06:05:08 PM  

CynicalLA: Weatherkiss: quizzical: No one should have to feel like they need a gun to navigate unmolested through society.

Correct. They shouldn't. But such is life. I'd love a utopian society where I wouldn't feel safer using a gun. I hate the fact a gun is the only thing that can make me feel safe. I work at a hospital and the last thing I desire to do is hurt or injure another person. But when reality doesn't give a shiat about what things should be like, you have to sometimes do things you really don't feel like you should have to do.

You are the type of person that should never have a gun.  You are paranoid and need some mental help.  I'm glad they don't let idiots like you carry in California.  A coward that can't go through life without a deadly weapon to try and scare people.


CynicalLA:  ITG with a 20th degree blackbelt in Bullshido.  too bad everyone can't be as strong and brave as you.
 
2014-01-14 06:06:46 PM  

Kit Fister: rzrwiresunrise: This is not a basis for open-carry. Is your house the local Starbucks? The public library? A gas station?

you must have missed my post regarding open carry specifically.

Open carry is impolite, in my personal opinion, unless in a situation that specifically warrants it. At the range? In the field? Hot day and have to take off the garment covering up the gun? Okay, I'll give it a pass. But I don't want to do it just to shove it in your face.

Well, maybe justtray's face. I'd love to shove it in his face. Repeatedly.


Unfortunately, the in-your-face approach is what's becoming more prominent. There are situations where a weapon is warranted, but that's not what the open-carry movement is about. The movement is about bringing a gun to Starbucks, where we all know gun-toting gangstas with AK's are lyin' in wait take yo' sh*t, amirite? Open-carry thinks it's about de-escalation, but it's actually promoting escalation. Everyone carrying a gun doesn't defuse the environment, nor does it put everyone on equal footing. All it does is make everyone look at each other suspiciously, especially since everyone would be hyper-aware of the damage potential if one began to discharge. Even at the range I and my buddies were acutely aware of everyone who was holding. It was fun, but it was tense, because one bullet is all it takes.
 
2014-01-14 06:08:51 PM  

CynicalLA: You are the type of person that should never have a gun. You are paranoid and need some mental help. I'm glad they don't let idiots like you carry in California. A coward that can't go through life without a deadly weapon to try and scare people.


I am paranoid and maybe I do need mental help. But that seems to happen when you have people close to you try to scare or harm you. Just because I am exercising my legal right to carry does not mean that I am trying to scare people. If they are scared, that is their problem -- because I have no interest in them. The only people who should be scared are those who try to take advantage of me.

GoldSpider: How many strangers accost you on a typical day when you aren't carrying?


Depends on what I'm doing, where I'm doing it, and what day it is. On the weekend, people will usually be out and about more. Which means more potential targets. If I'm going to a busy or unfamiliar area I might carry. It also depends on what your definition of 'accost' is.

My definition is dealing with someone I really don't want to be dealing with. If a single person on the street hands me a flyer, asks me if they can borrow a dollar, if I can do this or that for them no matter the slightest inconvenience -- it's one too many times.

I still deal with those people, but when I carry I don't deal with them as often and when I do the interactions are usually brief, short, and to the point. Just the way I prefer it. People aren't as pushy.
 
2014-01-14 06:09:31 PM  

rzrwiresunrise: Unfortunately, the in-your-face approach is what's becoming more prominent. There are situations where a weapon is warranted, but that's not what the open-carry movement is about. The movement is about bringing a gun to Starbucks, where we all know gun-toting gangstas with AK's are lyin' in wait take yo' sh*t, amirite? Open-carry thinks it's about de-escalation, but it's actually promoting escalation. Everyone carrying a gun doesn't defuse the environment, nor does it put everyone on equal footing. All it does is make everyone look at each other suspiciously, especially since everyone would be hyper-aware of the damage potential if one began to discharge. Even at the range I and my buddies were acutely aware of everyone who was holding. It was fun, but it was tense, because one bullet is all it takes.


Eh, I'm more in tune to the behaviors of the people with the gun than who has guns. If you look like you're nervous and twitchy, you're higher on the radar than some old man with a gun on.
 
2014-01-14 06:09:41 PM  

rzrwiresunrise: Kit Fister: rzrwiresunrise: This is not a basis for open-carry. Is your house the local Starbucks? The public library? A gas station?

you must have missed my post regarding open carry specifically.

Open carry is impolite, in my personal opinion, unless in a situation that specifically warrants it. At the range? In the field? Hot day and have to take off the garment covering up the gun? Okay, I'll give it a pass. But I don't want to do it just to shove it in your face.

Well, maybe justtray's face. I'd love to shove it in his face. Repeatedly.

Unfortunately, the in-your-face approach is what's becoming more prominent. There are situations where a weapon is warranted, but that's not what the open-carry movement is about. The movement is about bringing a gun to Starbucks, where we all know gun-toting gangstas with AK's are lyin' in wait take yo' sh*t, amirite?


A place that charges six bucks for a coffee?  Yes, they're highway robbers.
 
2014-01-14 06:11:44 PM  

Weatherkiss: CynicalLA: You are the type of person that should never have a gun. You are paranoid and need some mental help. I'm glad they don't let idiots like you carry in California. A coward that can't go through life without a deadly weapon to try and scare people.

I am paranoid and maybe I do need mental help. But that seems to happen when you have people close to you try to scare or harm you. Just because I am exercising my legal right to carry does not mean that I am trying to scare people. If they are scared, that is their problem -- because I have no interest in them. The only people who should be scared are those who try to take advantage of me.

GoldSpider: How many strangers accost you on a typical day when you aren't carrying?

Depends on what I'm doing, where I'm doing it, and what day it is. On the weekend, people will usually be out and about more. Which means more potential targets. If I'm going to a busy or unfamiliar area I might carry. It also depends on what your definition of 'accost' is.

My definition is dealing with someone I really don't want to be dealing with. If a single person on the street hands me a flyer, asks me if they can borrow a dollar, if I can do this or that for them no matter the slightest inconvenience -- it's one too many times.

I still deal with those people, but when I carry I don't deal with them as often and when I do the interactions are usually brief, short, and to the point. Just the way I prefer it. People aren't as pushy.


I can only speak for myself, but I'd think some variant of "no, thanks" would accomplish the same thing. But then I've never been approached aggressively by a stranger on the street, so YMMV.
 
2014-01-14 06:11:52 PM  

Weatherkiss: My definition is dealing with someone I really don't want to be dealing with. If a single person on the street hands me a flyer, asks me if they can borrow a dollar, if I can do this or that for them no matter the slightest inconvenience -- it's one too many times.


Normal people ignore panhandlers. Mentally ill people threaten to kill them for daring to breathe.

I guess this settles which one you are.
 
2014-01-14 06:14:26 PM  

Aexia: Weatherkiss: My definition is dealing with someone I really don't want to be dealing with. If a single person on the street hands me a flyer, asks me if they can borrow a dollar, if I can do this or that for them no matter the slightest inconvenience -- it's one too many times.

Normal people ignore panhandlers. Mentally ill people threaten to kill them for daring to breathe.

I guess this settles which one you are.


God you're stupid.
 
2014-01-14 06:14:26 PM  
All the people I know in Wyoming who are all gung ho about open carry are complete tools.  Most of them are collectively known as "that guy."  They are always biatching about how persecuted they are, getting in other people's business, and generally making a nuisance of themself to others.  Each one is pretty much the LAST person you want carrying a weapon, and they definitely fantasize about using it.
 
2014-01-14 06:14:27 PM  

GoldSpider: I can only speak for myself, but I'd think some variant of "no, thanks" would accomplish the same thing. But then I've never been approached aggressively by a stranger on the street, so YMMV.


Walk a mile in my shoes before I carried and even if you don't agree with why I carry, at least maybe you'd understand why I'd want to.

Aexia: Normal people ignore panhandlers. Mentally ill people threaten to kill them for daring to breathe.

I guess this settles which one you are.


You do realize it's illegal for me to threaten to shoot a panhandler with my gun in public, right? Threatening to shoot anyone while openly carrying would result in jailtime.

If they think I'm going to shoot them, maybe that says more about their motives than it does mine.
 
2014-01-14 06:15:06 PM  

Aexia: Weatherkiss: My definition is dealing with someone I really don't want to be dealing with. If a single person on the street hands me a flyer, asks me if they can borrow a dollar, if I can do this or that for them no matter the slightest inconvenience -- it's one too many times.

Normal people ignore panhandlers. Mentally ill people threaten to kill them for daring to breathe.

I guess this settles which one you are.


If you equate someone carrying a gun with threatening to kill them for daring to breathe, I'd guess she's not the one with the mental illness.
 
2014-01-14 06:16:46 PM  

Kit Fister: rzrwiresunrise: Unfortunately, the in-your-face approach is what's becoming more prominent. There are situations where a weapon is warranted, but that's not what the open-carry movement is about. The movement is about bringing a gun to Starbucks, where we all know gun-toting gangstas with AK's are lyin' in wait take yo' sh*t, amirite? Open-carry thinks it's about de-escalation, but it's actually promoting escalation. Everyone carrying a gun doesn't defuse the environment, nor does it put everyone on equal footing. All it does is make everyone look at each other suspiciously, especially since everyone would be hyper-aware of the damage potential if one began to discharge. Even at the range I and my buddies were acutely aware of everyone who was holding. It was fun, but it was tense, because one bullet is all it takes.

Eh, I'm more in tune to the behaviors of the people with the gun than who has guns. If you look like you're nervous and twitchy, you're higher on the radar than some old man with a gun on.


It wasn't about nervous or twitchy, it was about monitoring everyone's safety awareness, regardless of the safety-rules we would talk about every time we got together. Now imagine everyone has a firearm in a public place and these are people you don't know. I don't know about you,  but I'm not about to assume everyone has my level of safety awareness or training. I'd rather there be no one carrying, including me.
 
2014-01-14 06:19:13 PM  

rzrwiresunrise: Kit Fister: rzrwiresunrise: Unfortunately, the in-your-face approach is what's becoming more prominent. There are situations where a weapon is warranted, but that's not what the open-carry movement is about. The movement is about bringing a gun to Starbucks, where we all know gun-toting gangstas with AK's are lyin' in wait take yo' sh*t, amirite? Open-carry thinks it's about de-escalation, but it's actually promoting escalation. Everyone carrying a gun doesn't defuse the environment, nor does it put everyone on equal footing. All it does is make everyone look at each other suspiciously, especially since everyone would be hyper-aware of the damage potential if one began to discharge. Even at the range I and my buddies were acutely aware of everyone who was holding. It was fun, but it was tense, because one bullet is all it takes.

Eh, I'm more in tune to the behaviors of the people with the gun than who has guns. If you look like you're nervous and twitchy, you're higher on the radar than some old man with a gun on.

It wasn't about nervous or twitchy, it was about monitoring everyone's safety awareness, regardless of the safety-rules we would talk about every time we got together. Now imagine everyone has a firearm in a public place and these are people you don't know. I don't know about you,  but I'm not about to assume everyone has my level of safety awareness or training. I'd rather there be no one carrying, including me.


Which is why I'm a proponent of mandatory safety training, and why I'm OK with CCW permits requiring in person on the range safety training.
 
2014-01-14 06:19:13 PM  

Weatherkiss: GoldSpider: I can only speak for myself, but I'd think some variant of "no, thanks" would accomplish the same thing. But then I've never been approached aggressively by a stranger on the street, so YMMV.

Walk a mile in my shoes before I carried and even if you don't agree with why I carry, at least maybe you'd understand why I'd want to.

Aexia: Normal people ignore panhandlers. Mentally ill people threaten to kill them for daring to breathe.

I guess this settles which one you are.

You do realize it's illegal for me to threaten to shoot a panhandler with my gun in public, right? Threatening to shoot anyone while openly carrying would result in jailtime.

If they think I'm going to shoot them, maybe that says more about their motives than it does mine.


I'd say a smallish woman has more of a reason to carry than most, but I will freely admit I'm a bit put off by the idea of using a gun to avoid typical day-to-day social interaction. But you're right, I haven't walked a mile in your shoes.
 
2014-01-14 06:19:20 PM  

Obama's Reptiloid Master: Open carry is great for police officers and trained professionals. Open carry is bad for Johnny Wantstobeahero.


You assume that those are two mutually exclusive groups. You would be wrong. Those two groups overlap so much that they are almost identical.
 
2014-01-14 06:20:36 PM  

DrPainMD: Obama's Reptiloid Master: Open carry is great for police officers and trained professionals. Open carry is bad for Johnny Wantstobeahero.

You assume that those are two mutually exclusive groups. You would be wrong. Those two groups overlap so much that they are almost identical.


Especially laughable considering the guy that shot someone in a theater yesterday is a retired cop.
 
2014-01-14 06:20:59 PM  

Kit Fister: justtray: Exhibit 1 - "gun crime exists with or without guns"

I wish i could say that was the stupidest argument posed by gun nuts in this thread, but the constant "laws dont work so why have laws?" Is still being touted out in this thread, so.... Yeah. Just wow.

Yeah, that actually should've said "gun crime exists with or without gun bans".

It was a poor statement that I apologize for profusely.

Gun crimes will exist with or without severe restriction, and I favor figuring out ways to combat the behavior and not simply restrict the tools.

Does that make more sense to you?



Ok ill give you a pass on the first mistake. So then why did you follow up that mistake with a 'laws dont stop crime so dont have laws" argument? Surely youre aware that particular fallacy was disproven in the first gun thread after Sandy Hook and every one since.And of course i agree with changing the behavior, to which i will expand upon in my next post.
 
2014-01-14 06:21:03 PM  
Every morning, I commute.
Mild-mannered man. In a business suit.
When I wanna come home at the end of my day
There's all these other cars stacked up in my way.
I pull up behind one
Pull out my pistol
Blow 'em away

When I'm driving my car I wanna go fast
But there's this slow car, won't let me pass
I flash my lights. I honk my horn.
Well.... I have to consider him warned.
I pull up behind him
Pull out my pistol
Blow 'em away

Jesse James behind the wheel
It's high noon in my automobile
You call me crazy,
You call me sick

Yeah, I got to get to where I'm going to quick
Son of a biatch, he cut me off.
Three whole lanes he pulled across
Made me mad. Made me swerve.
Son of a biatch got what he deserved.
I pulled up behind him
Pulled out my pistol
Blew 'em away.

Oh, look
Motorcycle, is riding between
He's splittin' lanes, if you know what I mean
This cuttin' in line that's an act of war
I saw him comin'. I opened my door.
Knocked him over
Pulled out my pistol
Blew 'em away

Jesse James behind the wheel
It's high noon in my automobile
You call me crazy,
You call me sick

Yeah, I got to get to where I'm going to quick
Little ol' lady, bless her heart.
She's walkin' her poodle 'cross the boulevard.
It was wearin' a red knit sweater, little knitted hat
Probably named "Fifi" or somethin' stupid like that!
I say, "Here Fifi"
Pulled out my pistol
Blew it away.
 
2014-01-14 06:22:14 PM  

Corvus: GoldSpider: Corvus: Hey maybe all of us don't want to live in a country where we feel we must carry a gun around 24/7.

Then don't feel that way.

Oh then so you admit people don't need guns in public?


Need isn't the issue.
 
2014-01-14 06:22:37 PM  

justtray: Ok ill give you a pass on the first mistake. So then why did you follow up that mistake with a 'laws dont stop crime so dont have laws" argument? Surely youre aware that particular fallacy was disproven in the first gun thread after Sandy Hook and every one since.And of course i agree with changing the behavior, to which i will expand upon in my next post.


But I didn't make a laws don't stop crime so don't have laws argument. I said that laws themselves don't stop crime, which is why I think we should focus on changing the behaviors.
 
2014-01-14 06:22:40 PM  

Weatherkiss: You do realize it's illegal for me to threaten to shoot a panhandler with my gun in public, right? Threatening to shoot anyone while openly carrying would result in jailtime.

 You already said the reason you open carry is as an open threat to anyone who dares breath in your vicinity. You don't have to speak to threaten someone.
 
2014-01-14 06:24:23 PM  

TV's Vinnie: Marcus Aurelius: Call the police if someone open-carries a gun into a public building: That's the advice the Ottawa County Sheriff's Office is giving to Hudsonville city staff during trainings this month

I don't carry normally, but for this asshole, I would make an exception.  In fact I'd show up every damn day.

Let us know what the floor tastes like.


Tastes like sweet sweet lawsuit settlement money to me.

That being said, I never carry, mostly because it is the absolute best way to get yourself shot.

/and you look like an asshole
 
2014-01-14 06:24:57 PM  

GoldSpider: I'd say a smallish woman has more of a reason to carry than most, but I will freely admit I'm a bit put off by the idea of using a gun to avoid typical day-to-day social interaction. But you're right, I haven't walked a mile in your shoes.


Even being a smallish woman doesn't really matter. Because people give off the 'weakness' vibe no matter the size and gender they are. There are people from all walks of life who just want to be left the fark alone without needing to say anything, and plenty of people who might be anxious or simply give off an aura that they're an easy mark for quick money (whether legally or illegally), and a gun can change the way that person is perceived.

Everyone has the right to let everyone around them know to leave them alone. If guns are a good way to get that point across, then so be it.
 
2014-01-14 06:27:14 PM  

rzrwiresunrise: There are no more "injuns" looking to scalp you.
The robbers use PoS hacks now.
There won't be any slave uprisings any time soon.
There are no gangstas comin to cap yo ass, unless you tryin to creep turf or front off.
The game tend to avoid public places.
The city of Fallujah is nearly 7,000 mi away.
The Martians have ray-guns whose discharge travels at the speed of light.
What is the need for open-carry again?


Ummm... there may not be any of those things anymore, but there still is a 2nd Amendment.
 
2014-01-14 06:28:47 PM  

skyotter: Kit Fister: Gun crimes happen with or without guns.

how can a gun crime happen without a gun?


If I recall, ITAR makes it unlawful to post files to 3D print guns.  Is that a gun crime without a gun?

/I remember the days when PGP was a munition.
 
2014-01-14 06:28:51 PM  

Weatherkiss: GoldSpider: I'd say a smallish woman has more of a reason to carry than most, but I will freely admit I'm a bit put off by the idea of using a gun to avoid typical day-to-day social interaction. But you're right, I haven't walked a mile in your shoes.

Even being a smallish woman doesn't really matter. Because people give off the 'weakness' vibe no matter the size and gender they are. There are people from all walks of life who just want to be left the fark alone without needing to say anything, and plenty of people who might be anxious or simply give off an aura that they're an easy mark for quick money (whether legally or illegally), and a gun can change the way that person is perceived.

Everyone has the right to let everyone around them know to leave them alone. If guns are a good way to get that point across, then so be it.


I just think we would be better off if guns weren't perceived as something to fear and mistrust. You apparently disagree, and that's OK.
 
2014-01-14 06:30:37 PM  

Aexia: You already said the reason you open carry is as an open threat to anyone who dares breath in your vicinity. You don't have to speak to threaten someone.


Rattlesnakes give you the courtesy of rattling their tail. It means back off. It doesn't mean they're going to attack you. It means if you don't back the fark off out of their personal space, they're going to bite you.

Shaking my ass is reserved for dancing. So carrying a pistol openly is my way of telling people to leave me alone. A lot of other people feel the same way.

If people are threatened by me carrying my pistol around, they're free to call the police and have them waste taxpayer money shadowing a small white girl who barely reaches five feet tall. I have no motive to use my pistol in an illegal fashion, so I have nothing to worry about.

If people are afraid of me and my gun, then maybe they have a guilty conscience or maybe they're paranoid. In either case, that's a problem with their brain -- not mine.
 
2014-01-14 06:30:43 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Kit Fister: It's illegal to drink and drive.

Kit Fister: And yet people still kill each other with cars.

Drunk driving deaths have decreased about 50% over the last thirty years. That wasn't by chance. It was through legislation, public policy, and public awareness.

The gun control crowd understands there will always be deaths by guns, suicidal, accidental and otherwise. But they think we can do better than 30,000 deaths a year. That's all. Let's get that number down to a lower steady state.


The problem is that almost all forms of gun control that pass constitutional muster do nothing to reduce that death count.  Banning or restricting "assault weapons", limiting the concealed or open carry of firearms, and the like do nothing to reduce that death count.

As long as guns are legal and easily available, people are going to use said guns to shoot other people.  And, thanks to the second amendment, and lacking a huge super-majority of people wanting to ban guns to overturn the second amendment, guns are always going to be legal and easily available.
 
2014-01-14 06:32:17 PM  

Kit Fister: rzrwiresunrise: This is not a basis for open-carry. Is your house the local Starbucks? The public library? A gas station?

you must have missed my post regarding open carry specifically.

Open carry is impolite, in my personal opinion, unless in a situation that specifically warrants it. At the range? In the field? Hot day and have to take off the garment covering up the gun? Okay, I'll give it a pass. But I don't want to do it just to shove it in your face.

Well, maybe justtray's face. I'd love to shove it in his face. Repeatedly.


Penis metaphor aside, your attitude here is very well representative of gun nuts in general. They just want to 'stick it to the libs.'

The problem is, you assume I have a personal problem with your 2nd ammendment rights. I don't give a shiat what you're allowed to do, so long as you bear the societal cost of your personal decisions. I don't want to take away any tools, I simply want to disincentivize their ownership and change the behavior of people like you that feel the need to not only own them, but stockpile them, and bring them to public areas.

What I would like to see is increased taxation on guns, either through the manufacturers, to the consumers, on the bullets, or whatever other mechanism is decided to be most effective. There should be a registry of guns and their owners, exactly like there is for cars, so that liability can be accurately and quickly determined when a gun is improperly used. The legal owner will be liable for the actions commited with the gun due to negligence unless it was reported stolen prior to the incident. (obviously there is nuance here - this isn't a simple 1 page law issue) Finally, there should be at some interval, training requirements, much like the initial intended purpose of the 2nd ammendment being linked to miltiia use at a time when there was no standing federal army. I think if we do not restrict what can be owned, but instead put the cost and responsibility on those who want the priviledge of gun ownership, we will change the behavior of these individuals in the long run.

Now a side note;
Here's a simple but irrelevant question - Have you ever discharged your weapon, legally, to defend or stop a crime? No, I'm not talking about made up DGU where some guy yelled at you and you pulled your piece and he walked away. I'm talking about have you EVER actually had to use the weapon you feel the need to carry around? If the answer is no, why do you feel the need to carry it around. This should be introspective to any gun nut, I hope, and should help you understand why everyone on the other side finds you so paranoid.
 
2014-01-14 06:33:15 PM  

Kit Fister: justtray: Ok ill give you a pass on the first mistake. So then why did you follow up that mistake with a 'laws dont stop crime so dont have laws" argument? Surely youre aware that particular fallacy was disproven in the first gun thread after Sandy Hook and every one since.And of course i agree with changing the behavior, to which i will expand upon in my next post.

But I didn't make a laws don't stop crime so don't have laws argument. I said that laws themselves don't stop crime, which is why I think we should focus on changing the behaviors.


Okay, then I retract my criticism. Sorry.
 
2014-01-14 06:33:49 PM  

rzrwiresunrise: Mikey1969: rzrwiresunrise: But I'm betting you're not part of a gang and you probably frequent suburban shopping malls and schools a lot more often than say the corner of 14th/Campbell in Oakland or Jefferson/Denker in LA. So let's stay on topic.

I'm not the one who brought race into it... And before I moved out of Phoenix, I lived in extremely shiatty neighborhoods. For the last 3 1/2 years, I had the ghetto bird over my block multiple times a night, and spotlighting my actual yard at least once a week, so what's your point?

Making sure you keep those red herrings out of the boat.


Once again, I AM NOT THE ONE WHO BROUGHT RACE INTO THE DISCUSSION.

So take your "red herring" bullshiat up with the person who DID brig up race.

I know, I know, not convenient, but that's the way it goes.
 
2014-01-14 06:38:26 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Drunk driving deaths have decreased about 50% over the last thirty years. That wasn't by chance. It was through legislation, public policy, and public awareness.

..

...and throwing millions of people in jail for driving safely from Point A to Point B, just because they have an arbitrary amount of alcohol in their bloodstream. Oh, and we accomplished it by gutting the Constitution.
 
2014-01-14 06:39:09 PM  

Geotpf: The problem is that almost all forms of gun control that pass constitutional muster do nothing to reduce that death count. Banning or restricting "assault weapons", limiting the concealed or open carry of firearms, and the like do nothing to reduce that death count.


HAHAHAHAH, what? How can you possibly make this bare assertion?

First of all, I garauntee you have an entirely false understanding of what the constitution means. Secondly, none of the things you proposed are actually on the table all. What is currently being shot down is universal background checks, registration, and ammo size limits. You know, things way, way less extreme that even from just a common sense standpoint, will impact gun deaths, let alone the mountain of data other countries have essentially given us. Or even our own country.

Do you require citations that you yourself cannot even provide to back your assertions? Because I CAN.
 
2014-01-14 06:40:44 PM  

justtray: Have you ever discharged your weapon, legally, to defend or stop a crime? No, I'm not talking about made up DGU where some guy yelled at you and you pulled your piece and he walked away. I'm talking about have you EVER actually had to use the weapon you feel the need to carry around? If the answer is no, why do you feel the need to carry it around. This should be introspective to any gun nut, I hope, and should help you understand why everyone on the other side finds you so paranoid.


No, and I hope I never have to. I would rather have and not need than need and not have.

This isn't like Lisa Simpson's "tiger-repelling rock" argument. Everyone knows what a gun is capable of doing. Unless you're getting mugged by an infant that has no concept of what a gun is, people know what guns are made to do.

To expect people to actually hope to use their firearm to hurt or injure another person in order to justify a firearm's existance is straight up evil. No human being should feel that bloodshed should occur in order to justify a gun's existance.

If the 'other' people on the gun issue think that responsible owners should have to kill or injure another person commiting a violent crime in order to justify its continued legal existance, I think they're more batshiat insane than some of the Teatards who think Obama is going to take their guns.
 
2014-01-14 06:41:47 PM  

justtray: Here's a simple but irrelevant question - Have you ever discharged your weapon, legally, to defend or stop a crime? No, I'm not talking about made up DGU where some guy yelled at you and you pulled your piece and he walked away. I'm talking about have you EVER actually had to use the weapon you feel the need to carry around? If the answer is no, why do you feel the need to carry it around. This should be introspective to any gun nut, I hope, and should help you understand why everyone on the other side finds you so paranoid.


You've convinced me.  I've never been in an auto accident, so seat belts are useless fetishes for the paranoid.  Helmets... those are straight up for pussies.
 
2014-01-14 06:42:04 PM  

quiotu: CynicalLA: Weatherkiss: I'd rather be concerned with their attitudes than their actions. Using a gun deters their actions. Carrying a gun openly deters their attitude. I don't like being insulted or disrespected or treated as a potential target for financial or criminal gain. I was tired of being a victim of pushy, aggressive people. I got a gun. Now people aren't so pushy or aggressive with me anymore.

Wow, you must piss a lot of people off.

His idealism is also a complete and utter fallacy.  Statistics already show that someone owning a gun is actually MORE likely to be assaulted or challenged.  Having the gun isn't protecting you from the criminals, but rather daring them to come at you, if the statistics are to be believed.


Someone OWNING a gun, or someone CARRYING a gun? There's a difference, and if you're going to cite "statistics", you should try and get it right.

Of course, you should also back up your assertions with some kind if a citation, but we're not gonna overdo it on your first rodeo, buddy...
 
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