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(MLive.com)   Proponents of Michigan's new open-carry gun law say they're loving their new sense of freedom, and they just wish the cops would remember that open carry is now legal and not to stage high-risk takedowns every time there's a gun call   (mlive.com) divider line 509
    More: Followup, Grand Rapids Press, gun laws  
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2054 clicks; posted to Politics » on 14 Jan 2014 at 3:42 PM (28 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-14 05:25:22 PM

Kit Fister: rzrwiresunrise: I wonder what bows and arrows were used for? What was the purpose of the spear? How bout the atlatl? The slingshot? The crossbow? I mean, if we're gonna put it all in a historical context, don't stop short and just mention the target practice. Own the whole story.

Originally? All of the above were developed for killing dinner. Then man got the idea to use them against each other, too.  Caveman had a club to fend of the sabertooth tiger. He saw his buddy caveman with his woman, and used the club on him, too. And probably her.

Give a man an object that can be used as a weapon, he's likely to use it as a weapon if needed.

I've seen a guy beaten to death with a lamp before. Just goes to show, people will fark ecah other up, no matter what they have at hand.


We're not discussing random objects that "can" be used as weapons. We're discussing actual weapons, designed to be used as weapons. A lamp, a bat, a cro-bar "can" all be used as a weapons, but that's not their primary purpose. Let's not try to whitewash what firearms' primary purpose is, cuz open carry is a non-issue on the range and in the woods. You're talking about urban and suburban locales, where the primary target is people, not paper, not deer.
 
2014-01-14 05:25:41 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: But what troubles me most about this suggestion - and the general More Guns approach to social ills - is the absolute abandonment of civil society it represents. It gives up on the rule of law in favor of a Hobbesian "war of every man against every man" in which we no longer have genuine neighbors, only potential enemies. You may trust your neighbor for now - but you have high-powered recourse if he ever acts wrongly.

Whatever lack of open violence may be procured by this method is not peace or civil order, but rather a standoff, a Cold War maintained by the threat of mutually assured destruction. Moreover, the person who wishes to live this way, to maintain order at universal gunpoint, has an absolute trust in his own ability to use weapons wisely and well: he never for a moment asks whether he can be trusted with a gun. Of course he can! (But in literature we call this hubris.) Link


This is a pretty good point, and underlies the girth of the pro-guns everywhere side.  There is a millennial/messianic belief that we are in the end times (for them), and they need to arm themselves for the wars preeminent in our society.  More likely than not, this is a racial war that they are expecting.  Of course there is little confusion why this has ramped up since Obama was elected.

Essentially, these people have given up on civil society.  For whatever reason, it's not exactly clear, but presumably because they feel 1) emasculated, 2) impoverished, 3) their decision making freedoms have been curbed.  Since they are often straight white males, who are often lower class, and socially troubled, that none of these things have legitimately happened, but have only happened circumstantially to them, doesn't really occur to them.  They are massively about projection, and the only way they can seek defense against the changes in the world is by waving their prosthetics around against threats that don't actually exist.
 
2014-01-14 05:26:03 PM

Weatherkiss: TFerWannaBe: Weatherkiss: TFerWannaBe: Weatherkiss: A responsible gun owner will never pull their piece on a whim

I can't tell the difference between a responsible gun owner and a maniac until he pulls and starts shooting. Can you?

I can't. Neither can you or anyone else.

However, openly carrying means you are alerting everybody around you that you do have a gun, but that it is holstered securely on your belt. People might get concerned. But you are displaying to your other human beings that you have nothing to hide.

A 'lone wolf' will simply not care. And the 'lone wolf' scenario is the majority of the most brutal gun crimes.

Someone who open carries does that as a courtesy to everyone around them that they're dangerous, but they aren't malicious.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here. You acknowledge that we can't tell the difference. Then you say a "lone wolf" won't care - implying that he may open carry, or may not. Then you go on to say that people who open carry aren't malicious; they just want to show people that they are carrying a dangerous weapon. This seems to contract your statement about the lone wolf - clearly some people who open carry may actually be malicious.

Regardless, I think you understand why some people, myself included, are uncomfortable with others walking around with firearms, even if they're in public view. It's impossible to tell if the armed person in front of you is a responsible citizen or some asshole who will shoot you over texting in a theatre (for which there is a special hell, but it's not the shooter's right to send him there).

I have no doubt that the vast majority of gun owners are mature and responsible, but since it's impossible to tell them from the maniacs and idiots until the bullets start to fly, how can I possibly support a policy permitting people to carry firearms in public?

I know what I say sounds contradictory, because it largely depends on one thing and one thing only. Motive.

A 'lone ...


Most armed muggers aren't "lone wolf" crazies.  They're mostly lazy criminals who've done plenty of B&Es, car thefts, hustling, or such, got tired of selling stolen crap for money and decided to cut out the middleman and steal the money directly from people.  Sociopaths, hardened career criminals who don't care if you live or die, sure, but for the most part opportunists.  The mere presence of an open carried gun will dissuade most as he doesn't want to risk the carrier being some crazy farker who will draw on him even though he has the drop on the guy.  You'll find some willing to go after a known armed individual if they needed the money, but there are easier targets.
 
2014-01-14 05:26:38 PM

quizzical: Weatherkiss: There's a certain respect or fear for pistols. If you want to give someone an attitude adjustment, you openly carry. If you take the same human being and put them in front of someone who wants something from them, if that human being has a gunbelt and a holstered pistol -- more often than not the way you deal with that person will be extremely different.

And I think there are a lot of people in everyday life that needs to have an attitude adjustment.

Dude, you spend a lot of time concerned with the attitudes of complete strangers.


I'd rather be concerned with their attitudes than their actions. Using a gun deters their actions. Carrying a gun openly deters their attitude. I don't like being insulted or disrespected or treated as a potential target for financial or criminal gain. I was tired of being a victim of pushy, aggressive people. I got a gun. Now people aren't so pushy or aggressive with me anymore.

Unless I have to be a masochist and enjoy being treated like a walking dollar sign that has to be pushed until giving up said money either legally or illegally because other people do.

Tigger: If a bunch of gun owners can agree on something as simple as "you should have to get training to wield something dangerous" then we have a giant problem with the fact that we can't even get a vote on anything approaching that level of stringency in Congress. Wayne LaPierre even reversed his OWN position on universal background checks.


This is a problem, yes. I'm okay with more background checks. My real gun control measures would involve more affordable and accessible mental health to the people who need it. It's my belief that guns are a neutral tool to be used for legal or criminal purposes -- but the people behind them are the problem.

Background checks addresses one of the symptoms of unacceptable gun crimes, and you're right it is something to be worked on. The root of the problem is getting people with guns to not want to shoot up innocent people to begin with.
 
2014-01-14 05:26:49 PM

Corvus: So what does that prove about gun laws again? Please explain it to us.


What it proves is that you like to dodge the issues when they get uncomfortable, you decided to drag it out when the OP said that he(she?) had been in a situation where self defense would have been possible, and as soon as that was stated, you made it into a cowboy pretending to have been in danger. As soon as you were actually presented with the actual situation, you acted like it was someone jumping topics. All I did was provide the post by post thread that YOU kept responding to, so that you wouldn't be so confused.
 
2014-01-14 05:26:59 PM
Wow, Corvus laid down the old school alley rape on the gun nuts in this thread.

Extra props to Kit Fisher for getting absolutely destroyed and just keep coming back for more. Bravo, I havent seen this kind of abuse since Rodney King
 
2014-01-14 05:27:36 PM

Corvus: Am I free to not live in a country where I have to worry that some nut will shoot me in the head because I am texting?

"Freedom" doesn't just work in some magical bubble that doesn't affect others like you pretend it does.


There is no absolute right anywhere in the constitution which guarantees you the right or privilege of removing the rights and privileges of others because you feel threatened by them.

Nor is there any guarantee of the right to exist without bad shiat happening, I'm sorry to say. You are at risk every day of your life. If it's not a gun, it's a knife, or a baseball bat or a drunk driver or the flu or getting hit by a meteor.

You do not have the right to revoke my freedoms because you feel threatened, you have only the right to take the necessary steps to ensure that you, yourself, are not directly in danger.
 
2014-01-14 05:29:06 PM
I'll interpret your silence as "I'm sorry my argumentative personality defect caused me to not read your post and made me look like an even more insufferable douche than normal".

Apology accepted.
 
2014-01-14 05:29:16 PM

Corvus: Farker Soze: Corvus: Farker Soze: Corvus: Farker Soze: Corvus: So you are for very strict background checks so that we can make sure every legal gun owner is this responsible?

Hah.  Close enough.

Huh?

So holding people to their own words about Responsible gun ownership is "banning all guns".

Yu think not letting crazy people have guns and background checks is 100% the same as "banning all guns".

Wow you are brainwashed by the NRA.

Ok, you don't want to take them all, just want to make it a privilege instead of a right, right?  I get it.  Still don't understand why you guys always throw around the drink driving comparison so much yet not one of you ever seems to be for very strict background checks so that we can make sure every legal drinker is responsible enough not to drink and drive.

HE BROUGHT UP DRUNK DRIVING NOT ME.

GO ASK HIM.

Well, are you for background checks on booze?  If not, why do you hate children?

Nope.


He said since gun crimes would still happen if gun laws were passed. I explained to him drunk driving still happens after their are drunk driving laws and if he thought those should be repealed too?

Ok let me put it this way "Rape still happens even though we have laws against rape, do you think then we should get rid of those laws?"

Does that make it better for you?


No, seems hypocritical to me to wish for some pre-crime laws on one hand and not for them on the other.
 
2014-01-14 05:29:53 PM

Mikey1969: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Mikey1969: Staff also were taught how to react when someone open-carries into a building because "it's something that's coming out more and more," Bagladi said.

You know how I react? I don't. I go on about my business. It's amazing how farking easy it is, no training is needed.

I dunno.  I see someone strapping in an area where they're not likely a hunter or something, more likely either a douchebag or some psycho?  I don't go there.  I leave.  Usually these subsets look exactly the same and I'm not about to cut my life short betting on the douchebag.

Businesses must love this shiat.

I've stood next to people with guns on their hips and never once gotten shot. It's amazing, I must have lead-repelling properties or something. I even carry my pistol on my hip on occasion, when heading to the gun range, and nobody has ever gotten shot by my gun, nor have they opened fire upon me. Funny part is that the businesses I've been in haven't had an issue either. People come in, they buy their soda, pay for their gas, buy their groceries, get a donut, a cup of coffee, etc., and nothing happens except that they get out their wallet, pay, and head back out the door.

I know, it's weird. the way everyone's talking here, you'd expect them to be pulling a Homer, and using the gun to punch the buttons on the card reader when it comes time to enter their PIN, but that's not what happens. Even weirder: Some people have survived being in a business with a gun present more than once.


All it takes to get killed by some addle-pated elderly ex-cop who is packing in a movie theater is one time.  That's all it takes.  So, I don't have your faith in people.

What's wrong with your philosophy is that you feel that white dudes openly carrying weapons are magically the most harmless people on earth.

Nope.  I read the news, dude.  I know who is most likely to shoot up shopping malls and churches and schools.  Guess what?  It's white dudes with guns.

If I see some goober with a canon slung over his back, I'm getting out.  I'm calling the cops.  End of story.  And that's what civil society does, despite fools like you trying to break it down.
 
2014-01-14 05:30:28 PM

Kit Fister: Gun crimes happen with or without guns.


how can a gun crime happen without a gun?
 
2014-01-14 05:31:09 PM

Kit Fister: Corvus: Am I free to not live in a country where I have to worry that some nut will shoot me in the head because I am texting?

"Freedom" doesn't just work in some magical bubble that doesn't affect others like you pretend it does.

There is no absolute right anywhere in the constitution which guarantees you the right or privilege of removing the rights and privileges of others because you feel threatened by them.

Nor is there any guarantee of the right to exist without bad shiat happening, I'm sorry to say. You are at risk every day of your life. If it's not a gun, it's a knife, or a baseball bat or a drunk driver or the flu or getting hit by a meteor.

You do not have the right to revoke my freedoms because you feel threatened, you have only the right to take the necessary steps to ensure that you, yourself, are not directly in danger.


You should read Isaiah Berlin on 'positive and negative freedom'. He (literally) wrote the book on the difference between 'freedom from' a thing and 'freedom to" a thing. It's a bit more nuanced than that.

Plus he's about the smartest political philosopher of the 20th Century so he's got that going for him.
 
2014-01-14 05:32:00 PM

Corvus: Right but your original point was even if we had gun laws we will still have gun crime.

Well we have laws against rape should those be removed because rape still exists?

Or is that logic you were using faulty?


And we have gun laws. It's illegall to kill someone with a gun. it's illegal to hurt someone with a gun. it's illegal to use a gun during the commission of another crime. it is illegal to sell a gun to a minor. it's illegal to sell a gun to a felon. it's illegal to sell a gun across state lines without an FFL. It's illegal to carry a firearm concealed without a permit in most states.

And yet people still kill each other with guns.

It's illegal to drink and drive. It's illegal to operate a motor vehicle if you have a BAC above a certain limit. It's illegal to drive while using certain intoxicating medications and substances.  It's illegal to use a motor vehicle to cause injury to another person. It's illegal to injure someone and leave the scene or an accident.

And yet people still kill each other with cars.

I don't see where the logic or comparison is faulty at all. The point is now as it has always been: Laws against the device or the act will not curb the behavior. It will allow us to punish those who display the behavior. THat's the best anyone can do.
 
2014-01-14 05:33:32 PM

skyotter: Kit Fister: Gun crimes happen with or without guns.

how can a gun crime happen without a gun?


whoops.
 
2014-01-14 05:34:11 PM

justtray: Wow, Corvus laid down the old school alley rape on the gun nuts in this thread.

Extra props to Kit Fisher for getting absolutely destroyed and just keep coming back for more. Bravo, I havent seen this kind of abuse since Rodney King


Another rape lover appears.
 
2014-01-14 05:35:30 PM

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: All it takes to get killed by some addle-pated elderly ex-cop who is packing in a movie theater is one time.  That's all it takes.  So, I don't have your faith in people.

What's wrong with your philosophy is that you feel that white dudes openly carrying weapons are magically the most harmless people on earth.

Nope.  I read the news, dude.  I know who is most likely to shoot up shopping malls and churches and schools.  Guess what?  It's white dudes with guns.

If I see some goober with a canon slung over his back, I'm getting out.  I'm calling the cops.  End of story.  And that's what civil society does, despite fools like you trying to break it down.



Ahhh, I see the problem here. You're putting words into my posts...

Got it. I mean, if we want to talk race, we could look at the incidences of crimes committed by minorities here, and that would total FAR more people than are shot in "shopping malls, churches and schools", but I'm not the one trying to bring racism into the discussion  here.
 
2014-01-14 05:35:41 PM

Farker Soze: justtray: Wow, Corvus laid down the old school alley rape on the gun nuts in this thread.

Extra props to Kit Fisher for getting absolutely destroyed and just keep coming back for more. Bravo, I havent seen this kind of abuse since Rodney King

Another rape lover appears.


And just like a person who casually throws out the word rape like it's in vogue, to him the accusation is the evidence.
 
2014-01-14 05:37:26 PM

Kit Fister: Corvus: Am I free to not live in a country where I have to worry that some nut will shoot me in the head because I am texting?

"Freedom" doesn't just work in some magical bubble that doesn't affect others like you pretend it does.

There is no absolute right anywhere in the constitution which guarantees you the right or privilege of removing the rights and privileges of others because you feel threatened by them.

Nor is there any guarantee of the right to exist without bad shiat happening, I'm sorry to say. You are at risk every day of your life. If it's not a gun, it's a knife, or a baseball bat or a drunk driver or the flu or getting hit by a meteor.

You do not have the right to revoke my freedoms because you feel threatened, you have only the right to take the necessary steps to ensure that you, yourself, are not directly in danger.


Surprise, you don't actually have the right to threaten people without recourse.  Openly carrying weapons, as people are trying to explain to you, is a form of threat.  Unsurprisingly, many would argue open carry laws are eroding civil society because they introduce a threatening element where there previously was none, and are troubled by this development.
 
2014-01-14 05:37:54 PM

Farker Soze: justtray: Wow, Corvus laid down the old school alley rape on the gun nuts in this thread.

Extra props to Kit Fisher for getting absolutely destroyed and just keep coming back for more. Bravo, I havent seen this kind of abuse since Rodney King

Another rape lover appears.


And now I remember why I have j******y blocked as a "moron".
 
2014-01-14 05:38:01 PM

Tigger: You should read Isaiah Berlin on 'positive and negative freedom'. He (literally) wrote the book on the difference between 'freedom from' a thing and 'freedom to" a thing. It's a bit more nuanced than that.

Plus he's about the smartest political philosopher of the 20th Century so he's got that going for him.


I'll do that.
 
2014-01-14 05:42:06 PM

Tigger: Weatherkiss: Tigger: Weatherkiss:

There is. You have to get a permit to open carry, you have to get a permit to conceal carry. To do that, you have to go through the legal methods of doing so which vary from state to state. Some states are stringent on how they give out permits. Some states are not so stringent.

Excellent.

So why not make everyone that wants a gun take and pass that training?

Like the military does?

I'm okay with that

Apologies for the repetition of a previous post; however what this implies is we have a serious problem here.

If a bunch of gun owners can agree on something as simple as "you should have to get training to wield something dangerous" then we have a giant problem with the fact that we can't even get a vote on anything approaching that level of stringency in Congress. Wayne LaPierre even reversed his OWN position on universal background checks.


This is they key point people always forget.  Forget about the hard left and hard right, most people still believe that the US can be a safe place where you can own a gun, and most will agree that a modicum of training and checking is what's really required.

I don't 'get' open carry, but if you want all the headaches that come with it, then more power to you... as long as you go through everything necessary to be a legal owner.  Yet when people talk of just making these kind of proactive checks and training universal, the worse of you lot start spewing the 'DER TAKIN WAY MEH GAWNS'.  You should be thoroughly embarrassed by that small percentage of your hobby, and should be working as hard as you can to distance yourself or ostracize them from the rest of you.
 
2014-01-14 05:42:34 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: But what troubles me most about this suggestion - and the general More Guns approach to social ills - is the absolute abandonment of civil society it represents. It gives up on the rule of law in favor of a Hobbesian "war of every man against every man" in which we no longer have genuine neighbors, only potential enemies. You may trust your neighbor for now - but you have high-powered recourse if he ever acts wrongly.


Only for the paranoid... I carry my gun when I travel interstate. I'm not taking the chance that if I break down, people will wait until the police get there before deciding to rob me. This doesn't mean that I expect to ever use my gun, but I also carry a jack in my car and don't expect to have a flat tire. People who carry in public aren't saying that they are GOING to use a gun, but they are acknowledging the fact that despite your "civil society", there isn't a police officer every 15 feet, and people get killed or mortally wounded before the cops get there almost every time.
 
2014-01-14 05:43:08 PM

Weatherkiss: Farker Soze: justtray: Wow, Corvus laid down the old school alley rape on the gun nuts in this thread.

Extra props to Kit Fisher for getting absolutely destroyed and just keep coming back for more. Bravo, I havent seen this kind of abuse since Rodney King

Another rape lover appears.

And just like a person who casually throws out the word rape like it's in vogue, to him the accusation is the evidence.




You should just go with the godwin when you have nothing.

You know, it could be that corvus has shown all arguments to be at minimum, based faulty premises, and at worse to be objectively logically incorrect in this thread, but you keep on believing whatever you have to.

If gun nuts had logic, there would be no gun nuts.

Exhibit 1 - "gun crime exists with or without guns"

I wish i could say that was the stupidest argument posed by gun nuts in this thread, but the constant "laws dont work so why have laws?" Is still being touted out in this thread, so.... Yeah. Just wow.
 
2014-01-14 05:43:34 PM

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Surprise, you don't actually have the right to threaten people without recourse. Openly carrying weapons, as people are trying to explain to you, is a form of threat. Unsurprisingly, many would argue open carry laws are eroding civil society because they introduce a threatening element where there previously was none, and are troubled by this development.


If you don't notice people in everyday life being pushy, aggressive, manipulative, or intimidating then it's because it is so commonplace as to be unnoticable.

You have aggressive salesmen, you have manipulative Scumbag Steves, you have intimidating acquaintances who feed off of the weakness and fear of people. You have your criminal opportunists who simply want what you have and see you as prey. This has happened without guns. This has happened with guns.

People will never stop using negative social behaviors to get something out of you in public.

There was always a threatening element that other people have had and continue to have. They have refined their social tools to an artform in some cases. Manipulative people have always existed, even before firearms were invented. They will continue to exist with or without firearms.

Firearms in of themselves, carried openly -- is a courtesy to others around them, and those who interact with them socially to tread lightly because despite whatever 'aura' they give off, they do have a tool made specifically to destroy.

And the subconscious self-preservation instincts in people respond to that when they might otherwise not have.
 
2014-01-14 05:43:58 PM

Kit Fister: It's illegal to drink and drive.


Kit Fister: And yet people still kill each other with cars.


Drunk driving deaths have decreased about 50% over the last thirty years. That wasn't by chance. It was through legislation, public policy, and public awareness.

The gun control crowd understands there will always be deaths by guns, suicidal, accidental and otherwise. But they think we can do better than 30,000 deaths a year. That's all. Let's get that number down to a lower steady state.
 
2014-01-14 05:43:58 PM

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Surprise, you don't actually have the right to threaten people without recourse. Openly carrying weapons, as people are trying to explain to you, is a form of threat. Unsurprisingly, many would argue open carry laws are eroding civil society because they introduce a threatening element where there previously was none, and are troubled by this development.


Ah, okay, and here no one actually said that.

To that end, I don't believe openly carrying a firearm is in and of itself a threat, if the person carrying the firearm is not himself behaving in a manner suggesting intent to use it.  However, I also agree that if i'm going to be going somewhere where firearms are not commonly displayed, the general sense of it not being a natural item in the environment would cause some consternation because it's strange and new and now you have the question why it's there and the intent of its presence.

To that end, i agree that it's polite for those who wish to carry guns to conceal them, or at least keep them out of plain sight, simply because it's unnecessary to display it. I keep a set of tools with me, but I don't need to hang those out in public, either, because why should I? I get them out if I need to.

I can understand and agree with that point of view.
 
2014-01-14 05:44:28 PM

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Surprise, you don't actually have the right to threaten people without recourse.  Openly carrying weapons, as people are trying to explain to you, is a form of threat.  Unsurprisingly, many would argue open carry laws are eroding civil society because they introduce a threatening element where there previously was none, and are troubled by this development.


No, BRANDISHING weapons is a threat. Look up the difference.
 
2014-01-14 05:46:09 PM

Mikey1969: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: All it takes to get killed by some addle-pated elderly ex-cop who is packing in a movie theater is one time.  That's all it takes.  So, I don't have your faith in people.

What's wrong with your philosophy is that you feel that white dudes openly carrying weapons are magically the most harmless people on earth.

Nope.  I read the news, dude.  I know who is most likely to shoot up shopping malls and churches and schools.  Guess what?  It's white dudes with guns.

If I see some goober with a canon slung over his back, I'm getting out.  I'm calling the cops.  End of story.  And that's what civil society does, despite fools like you trying to break it down.


Ahhh, I see the problem here. You're putting words into my posts...

Got it. I mean, if we want to talk race, we could look at the incidences of crimes committed by minorities here, and that would total FAR more people than are shot in "shopping malls, churches and schools", but I'm not the one trying to bring racism into the discussion  here.


There's enough dog whistling in gun discussions that I know precisely who someone is depending on their view on the matter.  Sure, there are outliers, but they are very few and far between.

Race is a very, very powerful undercurrent in the devotion gun fans have to their instruments.  I know you'll try to deny it.  What animates the rest of us is a confusion why you guys perpetually feel your homes and womenfolk are going to be invaded by inner city blacks from Chicago at any minute.

But hey, I live in a big, densely populated city.  I actually deal with black people on a daily basis, sometimes with bad results.  I don't fear getting randomly shot by anybody in my pretty safe city, because I know there are other precautions rather than waddling around with a gun on my hip.  But then, my city is actually civil, despite any differences.  I am far more afraid, whenever I visit some red state, that the movie theater I'm entering might get shot up by one of you guys because of your inherent anger and other ugly emotions.

I think, legitimately, gun lobbies are energized nearly 98% by fear.
 
2014-01-14 05:46:12 PM

Mikey1969: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: All it takes to get killed by some addle-pated elderly ex-cop who is packing in a movie theater is one time.  That's all it takes.  So, I don't have your faith in people.

What's wrong with your philosophy is that you feel that white dudes openly carrying weapons are magically the most harmless people on earth.

Nope.  I read the news, dude.  I know who is most likely to shoot up shopping malls and churches and schools.  Guess what?  It's white dudes with guns.

If I see some goober with a canon slung over his back, I'm getting out.  I'm calling the cops.  End of story.  And that's what civil society does, despite fools like you trying to break it down.


Ahhh, I see the problem here. You're putting words into my posts...

Got it. I mean, if we want to talk race, we could look at the incidences of crimes committed by minorities here, and that would total FAR more people than are shot in "shopping malls, churches and schools", but I'm not the one trying to bring racism into the discussion  here.


But I'm betting you're not part of a gang and you probably frequent suburban shopping malls and schools a lot more often than say the corner of 14th/Campbell in Oakland or Jefferson/Denker in LA. So let's stay on topic.
 
2014-01-14 05:46:15 PM

Weatherkiss: I'd rather be concerned with their attitudes than their actions. Using a gun deters their actions. Carrying a gun openly deters their attitude. I don't like being insulted or disrespected or treated as a potential target for financial or criminal gain. I was tired of being a victim of pushy, aggressive people. I got a gun. Now people aren't so pushy or aggressive with me anymore.


Wow, you must piss a lot of people off.
 
2014-01-14 05:46:37 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: Kit Fister: It's illegal to drink and drive.

Kit Fister: And yet people still kill each other with cars.

Drunk driving deaths have decreased about 50% over the last thirty years. That wasn't by chance. It was through legislation, public policy, and public awareness.

The gun control crowd understands there will always be deaths by guns, suicidal, accidental and otherwise. But they think we can do better than 30,000 deaths a year. That's all. Let's get that number down to a lower steady state.


Considering the 30k number is over 60% suicides, and the rest are largely based on the illegal drug trade and gang activity, I think we absolutely can do better than that, in pretty obvious ways.
 
2014-01-14 05:46:58 PM

Weatherkiss: Farker Soze: justtray: Wow, Corvus laid down the old school alley rape on the gun nuts in this thread.

Extra props to Kit Fisher for getting absolutely destroyed and just keep coming back for more. Bravo, I havent seen this kind of abuse since Rodney King

Another rape lover appears.

And just like a person who casually throws out the word rape like it's in vogue, to him the accusation is the evidence.


Rape is in Vogue?  That magazine has really undergone a surprising change of direction.
 
2014-01-14 05:47:21 PM

Weatherkiss:  I don't like being insulted or disrespected or treated as a potential target for financial or criminal gain. I was tired of being a victim of pushy, aggressive people. I got a gun. Now people aren't so pushy or aggressive with me anymore.

Unless I have to be a masochist and enjoy being treated like a walking dollar sign that has to be pushed until giving up said money either legally or illegally because other people do.


No one should have to feel like they need a gun to navigate unmolested through society.
 
2014-01-14 05:48:35 PM

justtray: Exhibit 1 - "gun crime exists with or without guns"

I wish i could say that was the stupidest argument posed by gun nuts in this thread, but the constant "laws dont work so why have laws?" Is still being touted out in this thread, so.... Yeah. Just wow.


Yeah, that actually should've said "gun crime exists with or without gun bans".

It was a poor statement that I apologize for profusely.

Gun crimes will exist with or without severe restriction, and I favor figuring out ways to combat the behavior and not simply restrict the tools.

Does that make more sense to you?
 
2014-01-14 05:49:35 PM

justtray: Weatherkiss: Farker Soze: justtray: Wow, Corvus laid down the old school alley rape on the gun nuts in this thread.

Extra props to Kit Fisher for getting absolutely destroyed and just keep coming back for more. Bravo, I havent seen this kind of abuse since Rodney King

Another rape lover appears.

And just like a person who casually throws out the word rape like it's in vogue, to him the accusation is the evidence.

You should just go with the godwin when you have nothing.

You know, it could be that corvus has shown all arguments to be at minimum, based faulty premises, and at worse to be objectively logically incorrect in this thread, but you keep on believing whatever you have to.

If gun nuts had logic, there would be no gun nuts.

Exhibit 1 - "gun crime exists with or without guns"

I wish i could say that was the stupidest argument posed by gun nuts in this thread, but the constant "laws dont work so why have laws?" Is still being touted out in this thread, so.... Yeah. Just wow.


It's funny when you try to get all intellectual and shiat.
 
2014-01-14 05:50:39 PM

quizzical: No one should have to feel like they need a gun to navigate unmolested through society.


I agree. But until there's a drastic change in human behavior, I'll feel more comfortable keeping people at arm's length and being wary of them, and having a gun for the really bad ones, than I will trusting them.

Of course, I also fully admit that after basically getting trashed just because i was in the wrong place at the wrong time on the wrong people's "turf', along with a few other really shiatty things that happened that took advantage of my trust, I'm just not willing to trust anyone again.

You may be a good person. You may be a saint. But keep your hands where I can see them and stay out of my house.
 
2014-01-14 05:51:15 PM

Weatherkiss: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Surprise, you don't actually have the right to threaten people without recourse. Openly carrying weapons, as people are trying to explain to you, is a form of threat. Unsurprisingly, many would argue open carry laws are eroding civil society because they introduce a threatening element where there previously was none, and are troubled by this development.

If you don't notice people in everyday life being pushy, aggressive, manipulative, or intimidating then it's because it is so commonplace as to be unnoticable.

You have aggressive salesmen, you have manipulative Scumbag Steves, you have intimidating acquaintances who feed off of the weakness and fear of people. You have your criminal opportunists who simply want what you have and see you as prey. This has happened without guns. This has happened with guns.

People will never stop using negative social behaviors to get something out of you in public.

There was always a threatening element that other people have had and continue to have. They have refined their social tools to an artform in some cases. Manipulative people have always existed, even before firearms were invented. They will continue to exist with or without firearms.

Firearms in of themselves, carried openly -- is a courtesy to others around them, and those who interact with them socially to tread lightly because despite whatever 'aura' they give off, they do have a tool made specifically to destroy.

And the subconscious self-preservation instincts in people respond to that when they might otherwise not have.


Well, you know, I've actually lived on this planet for a while and have known lots of people, so your little society lesson isn't big news.  But what amuses is the sense that openly carried weapons is a 'courtesy' to let me know where people stand when I speak to them.

I'm far less likely to speak to them.  Look at the fool in the movie theater, who shot a guy for texting.  I'm...  not going to deal with someone with a gun.  I already figure they have a shrunken sense of self and, because I cannot trust our government to govern on this issue, have never adequately proven they have the mental wherewithal to tote something like that around.

So, you have a gun?  I'm not even acknowledging you.  If somehow we have to speak, I do so with fake reverence, then zip off.  I'm pretty happy where I am, in my thriving, healthy, economically diverse city, where we actually have laws about this sort of thing.  I'm happy not going to wherever people have to creep around showing off the guns they've bought.  There's a reason Michigan is a shiathole.  Not because of the guns, but they come from the same, disenfranchised, fearful place.
 
2014-01-14 05:52:14 PM

CynicalLA: Weatherkiss: I'd rather be concerned with their attitudes than their actions. Using a gun deters their actions. Carrying a gun openly deters their attitude. I don't like being insulted or disrespected or treated as a potential target for financial or criminal gain. I was tired of being a victim of pushy, aggressive people. I got a gun. Now people aren't so pushy or aggressive with me anymore.

Wow, you must piss a lot of people off.


The people I piss off are generally those I don't give a shiat about.

quizzical: No one should have to feel like they need a gun to navigate unmolested through society.


Correct. They shouldn't. But such is life. I'd love a utopian society where I wouldn't feel safer using a gun. I hate the fact a gun is the only thing that can make me feel safe. I work at a hospital and the last thing I desire to do is hurt or injure another person. But when reality doesn't give a shiat about what things should be like, you have to sometimes do things you really don't feel like you should have to do.
 
2014-01-14 05:52:28 PM
Perhaps your fellow citizens should start "standing their ground" and just blast away at anyone they see open-carrying because "hey, I felt threatened".
 
2014-01-14 05:52:41 PM

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Kit Fister: Corvus: Am I free to not live in a country where I have to worry that some nut will shoot me in the head because I am texting?

"Freedom" doesn't just work in some magical bubble that doesn't affect others like you pretend it does.

There is no absolute right anywhere in the constitution which guarantees you the right or privilege of removing the rights and privileges of others because you feel threatened by them.

Nor is there any guarantee of the right to exist without bad shiat happening, I'm sorry to say. You are at risk every day of your life. If it's not a gun, it's a knife, or a baseball bat or a drunk driver or the flu or getting hit by a meteor.

You do not have the right to revoke my freedoms because you feel threatened, you have only the right to take the necessary steps to ensure that you, yourself, are not directly in danger.

Surprise, you don't actually have the right to threaten people without recourse.  Openly carrying weapons, as people are trying to explain to you, is a form of threat.  Unsurprisingly, many would argue open carry laws are eroding civil society because they introduce a threatening element where there previously was none, and are troubled by this development.


The irrational fear of inanimate objects is a treatable phobia.
 
2014-01-14 05:53:28 PM

Kit Fister: quizzical: No one should have to feel like they need a gun to navigate unmolested through society.

I agree. But until there's a drastic change in human behavior, I'll feel more comfortable keeping people at arm's length and being wary of them, and having a gun for the really bad ones, than I will trusting them.

Of course, I also fully admit that after basically getting trashed just because i was in the wrong place at the wrong time on the wrong people's "turf', along with a few other really shiatty things that happened that took advantage of my trust, I'm just not willing to trust anyone again.

You may be a good person. You may be a saint. But keep your hands where I can see them and stay out of my house.


This is not a basis for open-carry. Is your house the local Starbucks? The public library? A gas station?
 
2014-01-14 05:53:48 PM

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: There's a reason Michigan is a shiathole.


Really? You haven't seen much of it outside of detroit, then.
 
2014-01-14 05:54:36 PM

rzrwiresunrise: But I'm betting you're not part of a gang and you probably frequent suburban shopping malls and schools a lot more often than say the corner of 14th/Campbell in Oakland or Jefferson/Denker in LA. So let's stay on topic.


I'm not the one who brought race into it... And before I moved out of Phoenix, I lived in extremely shiatty neighborhoods. For the last 3 1/2 years, I had the ghetto bird over my block multiple times a night, and spotlighting my actual yard at least once a week, so what's your point?
 
2014-01-14 05:55:37 PM

CynicalLA: Weatherkiss: I'd rather be concerned with their attitudes than their actions. Using a gun deters their actions. Carrying a gun openly deters their attitude. I don't like being insulted or disrespected or treated as a potential target for financial or criminal gain. I was tired of being a victim of pushy, aggressive people. I got a gun. Now people aren't so pushy or aggressive with me anymore.

Wow, you must piss a lot of people off.


His idealism is also a complete and utter fallacy.  Statistics already show that someone owning a gun is actually MORE likely to be assaulted or challenged.  Having the gun isn't protecting you from the criminals, but rather daring them to come at you, if the statistics are to be believed.
 
2014-01-14 05:55:50 PM

rzrwiresunrise: This is not a basis for open-carry. Is your house the local Starbucks? The public library? A gas station?


you must have missed my post regarding open carry specifically.

Open carry is impolite, in my personal opinion, unless in a situation that specifically warrants it. At the range? In the field? Hot day and have to take off the garment covering up the gun? Okay, I'll give it a pass. But I don't want to do it just to shove it in your face.

Well, maybe justtray's face. I'd love to shove it in his face. Repeatedly.
 
2014-01-14 05:55:51 PM

Kit Fister: quizzical: No one should have to feel like they need a gun to navigate unmolested through society.

I agree. But until there's a drastic change in human behavior, I'll feel more comfortable keeping people at arm's length and being wary of them, and having a gun for the really bad ones, than I will trusting them.

Of course, I also fully admit that after basically getting trashed just because i was in the wrong place at the wrong time on the wrong people's "turf', along with a few other really shiatty things that happened that took advantage of my trust, I'm just not willing to trust anyone again.

You may be a good person. You may be a saint. But keep your hands where I can see them and stay out of my house.


So you admit to being a coward.   You could have saved a lot of time.
 
2014-01-14 05:56:35 PM

quiotu: His idealism is also a complete and utter fallacy. Statistics already show that someone owning a gun is actually MORE likely to be assaulted or challenged. Having the gun isn't protecting you from the criminals, but rather daring them to come at you, if the statistics are to be believed.


[citation needed]
 
2014-01-14 05:56:49 PM

Mikey1969: rzrwiresunrise: But I'm betting you're not part of a gang and you probably frequent suburban shopping malls and schools a lot more often than say the corner of 14th/Campbell in Oakland or Jefferson/Denker in LA. So let's stay on topic.

I'm not the one who brought race into it... And before I moved out of Phoenix, I lived in extremely shiatty neighborhoods. For the last 3 1/2 years, I had the ghetto bird over my block multiple times a night, and spotlighting my actual yard at least once a week, so what's your point?


Making sure you keep those red herrings out of the boat.
 
2014-01-14 05:57:10 PM

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Well, you know, I've actually lived on this planet for a while and have known lots of people, so your little society lesson isn't big news. But what amuses is the sense that openly carried weapons is a 'courtesy' to let me know where people stand when I speak to them.

I'm far less likely to speak to them. Look at the fool in the movie theater, who shot a guy for texting. I'm... not going to deal with someone with a gun. I already figure they have a shrunken sense of self and, because I cannot trust our government to govern on this issue, have never adequately proven they have the mental wherewithal to tote something like that around.

So, you have a gun? I'm not even acknowledging you. If somehow we have to speak, I do so with fake reverence, then zip off. I'm pretty happy where I am, in my thriving, healthy, economically diverse city, where we actually have laws about this sort of thing. I'm happy not going to wherever people have to creep around showing off the guns they've bought. There's a reason Michigan is a shiathole. Not because of the guns, but they come from the same, disenfranchised, fearful place.


If I'm carrying a gun in public, it's because I want to run my errands and take care of business without being hassled. I don't openly carry a gun during social events. If I'm going to a bar or out with friends, I don't carry. Because it is a social event where I don't mind being bothered.

If I'm out and about with a daily agenda of things to get done, particularly if I have to go into an area I really don't like to be? I will carry. If someone sees me carry and doesn't want to talk to me, then that is better for the both of us. They're scared of me, and I don't feel like being social with them.

I don't do it to be malicious. I just want to be left the fark alone.
 
2014-01-14 05:57:35 PM

CynicalLA: So you admit to being a coward. You could have saved a lot of time.


Freely and openly. Happens when you nearly die at the hands of another. If you're looking for some sense of shame in that from me, you're not going to find one. :)
 
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