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(Jezebel)   Traditional American masculinity is on its way out, and men have no one to blame but themselves. Men are useless trifecta now in play   (jezebel.com) divider line 98
    More: Obvious, Americans, American masculinity, James Taranto  
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8245 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Jan 2014 at 11:47 AM (32 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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2014-01-12 09:43:01 AM
11 votes:
img.photobucket.com
2014-01-12 10:44:16 AM
8 votes:

FriarReb98: I blame hipsters.


I blame a zeitgeist of "SOMEBODY HAS TO BE BLAMED!" being shoved under our noses like lilac sprinkled dogsh*t for four decades.  You don't have to pull a gun on people to steal from them.  Just keep them hating each other 24/7 while you pick their pockets.
2014-01-12 09:50:59 AM
8 votes:
Homo sapiens: the first species to DESERVE extinction
2014-01-12 10:02:15 AM
7 votes:
Man up and stop reading Jezebel, nancies.
2014-01-12 11:58:24 AM
6 votes:
The sissification of men started long ago. Do you notice in old black and white tv programs the father figure is a standup, respected leader of the household.

Nowadays the father figure is the brunt of any joke on television programs.
2014-01-12 12:03:22 PM
5 votes:
TFA: we need to blame... men.

This is every Jezebel article.
2014-01-12 03:44:20 PM
4 votes:
If a woman ever tells you you're not "man enough," kick her out of your life instantly. Those words are highly indicative of a cluster B disorder, and men do not need or have to tolerate that kind of abusive behavior from women. Get them out of your life as soon as possible.
2014-01-12 12:04:16 PM
4 votes:
I understand where the author is coming from. When the only men you encounter are the pathetic, pussified gamma males taking the same gender studies courses that you are (or post to the same news aggregator site that you do), it's easy to come to the these conclusions.
2014-01-12 10:01:18 AM
4 votes:
Ah, more broad and authoritative pronouncements from the misandry content farm.  I mean, I dunno.  It could be true.  It IS on the internet.
2014-01-12 09:41:49 AM
4 votes:

Rincewind53: Uh, yeah. Declining male power is largely the result of the economy making traditionally male-dominated physical jobs mostly obsolete.

"It's the economy, stupid"


This.

I don't really see how blame has anything to do with it, especially blaming one sex against another. Did stagecoach drivers and lamp oil workers blame one sex for their declining roles in society? The world changed and economic shifts value certain skills over another.

That being said, someone like me wouldn't survive a day on an oil rig/coal mine/forestry crew, so there are still a few job sectors that value traditional "masculine" traits
2014-01-12 09:17:42 AM
4 votes:
Uh, yeah. Declining male power is largely the result of the economy making traditionally male-dominated physical jobs mostly obsolete.

"It's the economy, stupid"
2014-01-12 08:49:24 AM
4 votes:
I take pride in my size and strength, but these kids wearin' nut huggers, never played a sport in their life, they look foolish. A couple push ups won't kill ya.
2014-01-12 04:26:32 PM
3 votes:

Underwater Bystander: Isn't the idea of modern life that everyone should be whatever they want? We ("applaud" is the wrong word, but) accept when people want to do things like decide to change their gender or decide to defy expectation not fall into traditional roles in more subtle ways.

I suspect the older incarnations of masculinity will never go away. Some men will always want to look like Arnold while others will proudly order froo-froo drinks at bars. Some will do both. Neither is wrong, so why should we care? Everybody just does their own thing.

/missing the point?
//maybe


I think we've just gotten horribly confused about the concept of "traditional masculinity." People now seem to equate it with cartoonish, hyper-macho bullshiat, when traditionally that would have been regarded as a failure of masculinity.

Historically (or at least, what I've read of the intellectual history), "masculinity" has tended to be defined with four overarching themes: 1) a stoic command of one's emotions, 2) equanimity toward adversity, 3) magnanimity, especially toward women and children, and 4) self-sacrifice to duty, honor, and excellence.

I'm a traditionally masculine guy, in those terms. I drink plenty of froo-froo drinks, and have never wanted to look like Arnold. (Or He-Man, or whatever else went wrong with the masculine self-image starting in the 1980s, when musculature somehow became equated with manhood).

And, I'll admit I don't have much patience for non-masculine/emasculated/macho men -- and I don't think society is better off for having them around.
2014-01-12 03:01:20 PM
3 votes:

studebaker hoch: Smart people don't have to work physical jobs.


You never had to stand through a 4 hour brain surgery, stress out over the details of a billion dollar deal making it through all of the hurdles, do a million situps and pushups to be in shape for a movie, etc.  Many of the highest paying jobs have some physical aspect to them, if even extreme mental focus (the brain is part of the body).  Most people would benefit from some hard labor in their life just to learn real work ethic.

As for Jezebel's article, she seems awfully pissed off that there are not enough of us manly men left to sweep her off her feet, put her in her place and fark her brains out daily, IMO.  She'd be allot happier if she'd stop picking effeminate men for boyfriends - as would all straight women.
2014-01-12 02:50:37 PM
3 votes:
We are to blame? There is only so much brow-beating we can take for being male. It wasn't OUR fault we were born male.

So sorry for not being born weak and catty.


/raised in a house full of women
//didn't stand a chance
///told daily the evil men caused
2014-01-12 02:26:24 PM
3 votes:
content.artofmanliness.com
2014-01-12 01:02:52 PM
3 votes:

rebelyell2006: DanZero:

Whenever I read "cisgender" my mind thinks "Cisalpine Gaul" and I wonder what Julius Caesar has to do with Feminism.


Same here. Too much "Gallic Wars" and Suetonius in my younger days and not enough poorly constructed gender political debates, I guess.

Having said that, I'm looking for a female welder, because all the male ones are busy. I really don't care whether my tradespeople sit down to pee or not, but I've sure noticed that there's a huge shortage of people who can actually do things.

Note that "scribbling for Jezebel" is not "doing things".
2014-01-12 01:00:09 PM
3 votes:

wyltoknow: I think it farked up my idea of gender to grow up hearing things like how being a man means being tough, confident, brave, successful, ingenious, yadda yadda. I'm a girl and I think "what? I want to be those things, I want to know useful things and be able to get shiat done." I eschewed anything girly, because that message screamed to me that being a woman meant being weak, helpless, and stupid. I realized my perception was off when I got older, but now I regret not embracing more female things when I was younger and making myself into a more balanced individual.

Do we need to assign gender roles to basic personality traits? Shouldn't we teach all children to express confidence, learn how to fix things and solve problems themselves, to not back down from challenges?


As a girl, it's likely that you were also exposed to the idea that women are precious, and to be protected, and that their feelings are of utmost importance, and that they shouldn't ever feel discomfort.

I think there's a disconnect - girls who were brought up as girls, with that whole 'you are to be protected and no one is to ever make you feel bad or uncomfortable' are becoming feminists and going into the world and finding that their feelings Aren't constantly being protected...  And they think this is somehow because of misogyny, when really it's often that they weren't brought up to actually exist in the world the way men were brought up (stuff your own feelings inside, express them only in extreme circumstances and to a few people who are close to you, and sacrifice your comfort and self for the good of the team).

Girls aren't often yelled at to 'stop whining' or 'stop crying.'  Boys are (and, again, within reason, it's a GOOD thing to be trained up this way if you're going to exist in the world outside of the protected home).

When women get out into the world, they find that they're not protected, and they get all 'OMG you're dismissing my feelings becaue I'm a woman!' when they whine or complain - when guys whine about their feels, some other dude (rightly) tells them to stop being a chickenshiat and slaps them upside the head.

Your mom died?  Okay, let's talk.  Otherwise?  STFU and get back to work.
2014-01-12 12:56:07 PM
3 votes:

rohar: cryinoutloud: What i hate now is that if I want to ask someone advice about my car, I have to go find an old guy. The young guys know nothing. Which is OK, since I'm an old gal, but why can't I have a scenario like this ever?

This, I believe, is the problem.  The old social constructs are gone within the male community.  It has nothing to do with women and how men interact with them directly.

Used to be men hung around their families permanently.  Inevitably, you ended up in a situation where dad was home every night, but worked all day.  The retired men stayed home and did hobby stuff because, well, they were retired.  Generally good spirited old farts, but a bit rough around the edges.

Well, dad was gone all day and mom's busy, so what's a young kid gonna do on summer vacation?  Eventually, the young boy and the retired man will meet.  They're in the same neighborhood.  The kid inevitably learns a lot.  Old men who manage to hold a family together for a lifetime know a thing or two.  Next thing you know, the kid's helping fix a carburetor, figuring out how plumbing works, adding electrical circuits etc. because they're things that need to be done.  All the while, that old codger is talking to that kid teaching life lessons on everything from how to handle yourself in public to dating issues.

The old man in the neighborhood is gone today.  The boys have no source of education.

/I miss my "old man in the neighborhood" but we aged and he passed
//I work from home now, not quite that old yet, but there's a random neighbor kid in the shop with me all summer every summer


The old man in the neighborhood is most likely fearful of interacting with a young man and being accused of being a pedophile.
Sad, but true.
2014-01-12 12:43:50 PM
3 votes:
Or you could just not give a fark what other people think of you. Works for me.
2014-01-12 12:26:25 PM
3 votes:

Gentoolive: The sissification of men started long ago. Do you notice in old black and white tv programs the father figure is a standup, respected leader of the household.

Nowadays the father figure is the brunt of any joke on television programs.


The "Father Knows Best" type was the straight example before shows like "Married With Children" and "The Simpsons" came along and subverted the hell out of that trope, to the point that the subversion *is* the trope nowadays.

076dd0a50e0c1255009e-bd4b8aabaca29897bc751dfaf75b290c.r40.cf1.rackcdn.com

Nobody gives a fark about Daddy. Everybody takes Daddy for granted. Just listen to the radio. Everything's ''Mama. Dear Mama. Always loved my Mama.'' What's the Daddy song? Papa was a Rollin' Stone. Nobody gives a fark. Nobody appreciates Daddy.

Now, Mama's got the roughest job. l ain't gonna front. But at least people appreciate Mama. Every time Mama do something right, Mama gets a compliment... 'cause women need to hear compliments all the time. Women need food, water, and compliments. That's right. And an occasional pair of shoes. That's right. Women got to hear it all the time, or they lose their minds.

And get Daddy to make sure you thank your mama for everything. ''Tell your mama how good the food is. Tell her how nice the house looks. ''Tell your mama how nice her hair looks. ''Did you tell your mama? You better go in there and tell your mama.'' That's right! ''Tell your mama.''

Nobody ever tells Daddy shiat. l'm talking about the real daddies that handle their farking business. Nobody ever says, ''Hey, Daddy, thanks for knocking out this rent.'' ''Hey, Daddy, l sure love this hot water.'' ''Hey, Daddy, this is easy to read with all this light.'' Nobody gives a fark about Daddy. l'm talking about a daddy that handles his business. Nobody gives a fark about Daddy. Think about everything that the real daddy does: pay the bills, buy the food, put a farking roof over your head. Everything you could ever ask for. Make your world a better, safer place.

And what does Daddy get for all his work? The big piece of chicken. That's all Daddy gets... is the big piece of chicken. That's right. And some women don't want to give up the big piece of chicken. ''Who the fark is you... ''to keep the big piece of chicken? ''How dare you keep the big piece of chicken!'' A man can't work hours and come home to a wing.
2014-01-12 12:00:25 PM
3 votes:
These threads are lamer than Jezebel.
2014-01-12 11:58:31 AM
3 votes:

jennyz: And we wonder why more and more marriages are sexless and end in divorce....

Manly men are attractive, dammit.


Something's up, or maybe it's just my personal experience.  Anecdote is not data and all.

I keep hearing that if you want to impress your wife, do the dishes/laundry etc.  I do these things anyway, I make half the mess, may as well help clean it up.

But if I move 8 ton of hay or erect a rail road tie fence for her critters, neither of us is getting any sleep that night.

/yeah, classic manliness is dead
//sure
2014-01-12 11:57:32 AM
3 votes:
And the men just smile and nod and go back to being men confident in themselves and their ability to find a place in this world.
2014-01-12 11:56:33 AM
3 votes:

RedPhoenix122: quickdraw: DanZero: [img.photobucket.com image 600x445]

Have you ever met anyone like that? Because I never have and I live in Portland. Maybe you need to get out more.

That's the MRA depiction of women.


It's also every comment section on any article in any part of the Gawker media family from Jezebel to Kotaku. They're kind of... Cause-y.

But yeah, you won't meet these people in real life. They live on the internet.
2014-01-12 11:54:45 AM
3 votes:
I would think men would welcome the opportunity to be a little softer and carry fewer of the traditional burdens.  After all, I know far more men who struggle with not being perceived as manly enough than struggle with being too manly
2014-01-12 11:05:59 AM
3 votes:

DanZero: [img.photobucket.com image 600x445]


Have you ever met anyone like that? Because I never have and I live in Portland. Maybe you need to get out more.
2014-01-12 10:52:45 AM
3 votes:
I can cook, clean, do my washing, change my own tires, oil and spark plugs and light remodeling.  And do.  If I meet a bright, pretty and kind woman who wants to hang out and hold up her half of the sky, that'd be lovely.  As far as who does, what, I'm sort of communist about that.  Each according to their abilities, each according to the needs of the common good.

/badass sammich maker.
//can gap plugs.
///none of my white shirts are pink
2014-01-12 09:37:16 AM
3 votes:
TL;DR, too much henpecking.
2014-01-12 08:31:56 PM
2 votes:
FTFA: As Burger points out, jobs available to American workers now are more likely to place a premium on compromise, communication, networking, and other skills women and girls are socialized to value more than men and boys.

Though when men do work based on compromise, communication and networking it's called "an unfair old school tie network".
2014-01-12 04:00:44 PM
2 votes:
How can this woman know so much about being a man? She needs to be quiet.

My husband is an over the road truck driver. He smokes, gambles, hunts, and loves sports (football, hockey, and NASCAR--I do not get that, but I am trying). He has taught me to hunt (primitive weapon and gun) and play poker (Texas Hold 'em). I do not smoke and love football. I am waiting for the San Diego/Denver game to come on. Go Chargers! Yea, I know.  Give me this. Anyway. . .he is 6^5 and about 300 lbs. All muscle from years working on oil rigs and with cattle. Truck driving was the only thing his doc would clear him for after his accident. He was thrown from the rig, ruined his spine and neck. I rub his feet, cook for him and his hunting buddies when they come back from the woods, clean for him, and do anything else he asks. I do not feel put down or less than. I feel I am doing what is required of a wife.To me, he is a man. Where this woman is getting her info from is beyond me. Not all men are the wimpy, let's talk all night over mojitos, I cry at weddings type.

Oh, I work. I am a college professor. I teach English. I have an MA in English. Yes, a professor married to a truck driver. Since he is gone a lot, I have learned how to kill bugs, get stuff off of high shelves, open stubborn jars, I explore those 2 a.m. noises, plumbing, fix my car, and other things. As soon as he gets back, he does those things. Not because I insist, but because he feels it's his duty to ensure my safety and happiness. When he gets back from a long road trip, I give him a home cooked meal, do his laundry, give him the remote, and a bj.
2014-01-12 03:54:54 PM
2 votes:

starsrift: dared to have a baby


I've seen way too many people that cannot believe the company won't entrust them with unique powers and responsibilities and high pay when they're out for three months of the year for maternity leave, and once/twice a week for 18 years.  Meanwhile there's some guys and chicks that don't want kids that haven't missed a day in five years.
2014-01-12 03:33:01 PM
2 votes:
Actually, I never considered it the 'feminization of the male' but more like 'civilizing the guys'.

As a kid, I knew that, in a marriage, the guys had all the power. (1950s through the 60s.) They handled the finances, held the job, bought the cars and had most of the rights. The 'little lady' often didn't even know how to fill out a check, received and allowance from her husband, which was to be used for the home and spent most of her time cleaning, cooking and reading magazines on how to look good when weary hubby came home from a hard days work.

Married guys also, by law, could beat their wife into nearly a coma and the cops wouldn't do much. They also could beat their kids within an inch of their lives and there was no DCF to step in.

I dimly recall a period where young women felt their guys didn't care enough for them unless they occasionally got into a bloody fist fight with some other guy who impinged their honor. Plus, girls seemed to get all steamed up when their guy punched the krap out of another guy for almost any reason.

A little clue might have keyed women in: over the centuries men were responsible for 99.99% of the wars, including those that were nearly global. They also developed and used some of the most ghastly tortures ever known.

Almost since the first actually organized business began, men were finding ways to monopolize, fix prices, wipe out the competition (usually by just shooting them but when pesky laws got in the way, by creating convoluted and devious legal schemes to shut them down.)

Remember the famous Christmas movie 'It's a Wonderful Life'? Well, the rival banker accidentally got hold of the smaller banks deposits, which started the financial crisis that drove the plot. In the end, everything worked out well -- but the powerful banker never returned the original money and no one ever found out he had it in the first place.

In school, I well knew of the spot behind the gym where guys beat the krap out of each other. However, they did have rules: knock a guy down and you gave him time to get up, your friends stayed out of the fight even if you were getting beaten, no kicking, no weapons, eye gouging was frowned upon. Usually the strongest kid won, mainly because he had been getting into fights since he was 6 and found that his strength, plus his ability to fight enabled him to force his way on others.

Later, the simple fist fight would decline into the mass stomp, with the aggressor's buddies jumping in the wale on a single guy, kicking the krap out of a downed kid, especially in the head and ribs, rose from unacceptable to routine and stomping them in the face was considered good form.

By the late 70s, men were more ready to pull weapons on each other for a simple dispute. Famous Country singers sang hit songs about bar fights, getting their teeth knocked out and smacking their rivals with anything that came to hand from pool cues to table legs.

Society changed. DCF appeared. Lawyers started coining new laws. Punching a guy in the mouth in a bar because he pi$$ed you off could now get you in jail, sued, convicted of assault and you might wind up having to pay several thousand dollars pain and suffering along with mental distress caused to the looser by your actions.

Business tactics changed as all sorts of Rights popped up. Unions stepped in. You couldn't force a worker to use a dangerous, limb smashing piece of machinery anymore or loose his job. Even the military found out you couldn't humiliate and berate a soldier. (That time honored practice of punishing an entire barracks for the offense of one recruit, which naturally pi$$ed off the other guys towards him had to be reigned in due to civil rights and a ton of other legalities.)

Employees of a store who charged after a robber and kind of roughed him up discovered that they could wind up being sued for using 'undue' force. Then, their employer could be sued because they worked for him.

A thief could actually make more money than the actual theft would have netted him.

I'm not going to go into the host of assorted and stupid reasons why men, in the past and present, as leaders managed to get millions killed in wars lasting decades just because someone in power got pi$$ed at someone else in power.

Even today, you can see the political dick wagging between the politicians of assorted nations.

So, you toss in our 'new technology', which has had implications further reaching than anyone expected, a ton of lawmakers, who seem to need to justify their jobs by making often stupid laws and a massive population of lawyers, ready to sue over anything at any time followed by bastardization of the news media and dozens of poorly thought out sexual offender laws.

John Wayne and Lee Marvin would find their characters of the old west pretty well ham strung today. (Try walking around with that well used handgun strapped rakishly low on your hip in the middle of an American city today. You'd probably get shot by the cops.)

So, a dichotomy or dual standard has formed.

I've known many a lady who wants a nice guy, smart, peaceful, handsome but when she gets him, she wants him to punch people out like in the old days, he had better know how to build a house from scratch, be ready to smack down any other guy who insults her and be able to switch from $200 sneakers to cowboy boots in a minute. Plus, he needs to be compassionate, understanding, sensitive, should have a soft spot for small animals and needs to be an unforgiving Tiger at work to rake in lots of dough as he berates his employees and fires others.

It's getting a tad confusing for men, who run on testosterone anyhow.
2014-01-12 03:26:06 PM
2 votes:
Isn't the idea of modern life that everyone should be whatever they want? We ("applaud" is the wrong word, but) accept when people want to do things like decide to change their gender or decide to defy expectation not fall into traditional roles in more subtle ways.

I suspect the older incarnations of masculinity will never go away. Some men will always want to look like Arnold while others will proudly order froo-froo drinks at bars. Some will do both. Neither is wrong, so why should we care? Everybody just does their own thing.

/missing the point?
//maybe
2014-01-12 01:16:04 PM
2 votes:
 This article is nothing more than a broad sweeping statement about over 150,000,000 people in this country. There are men of every level of stupidity and intellect, barvado and timidity, alpha, beta, gamma, and beyond. For every weirdo out there there are hundreds of thousands of other weirdos to associate with.

If somebody says "if you're like X, you'll never get the Y" think real hard of just one exception, and realize that the statement is false.

"you're to fat to get a girl/boyfriend!"
I know two people off of the top of my head who are gigantically overweight, and both of them are married to hotties and have kids/careers.

"You're too girly to get a girlfriend!"
Ira Glass is married.

"You are too terrible in bed to ever find a long term relationship!"
Yea, there are impotent, or even castrated men who find the woman to fall in love with.
I know a woman who doesn't have sex for her own personal psychological issues, who is married to man who apparently doesn't mind.

In my opinion, the folks who write about men or women on a societal level are just a bunch of ninnies who project their own insecurities outwards.
2014-01-12 01:00:00 PM
2 votes:

Enemabag Jones: However it does not help that HR policies are too often tuned to issues of sensitivity and how it makes people feel.


This.  Although I agree with the author that men were mainly responsible for outsourcing, it's schizophrenic to assert a crying need for STEM grads (mostly male), but nevertheless predominantly hire women because women are more likely, but not exclusively, to have greater EQ and SQ levels.  HRs and recruiters are mostly women; that they hire more women than men based on job descriptors usually asking for quantitative skills -- and even hold off on hiring STEM grads until they can find a female STEM grad, even at a higher salary -- is prima facie sexism.

"...jobs available to American workers now are more likely to place a premium on compromise, communication, networking, and other skills women and girls are socialized to value more than men and boys." [article]

It remains to be seen whether upper-income women will use these qualities to reform Capitalism from within.  I doubt this, and say that Capitalism is turning those who could best bring positive change into consumer droids hoping to die with a larger number of luxury shoes and handbags than their girlfriends.

Alison Wolf in the recent book The XX Factor mentions a hard-worked female banker at JP Morgan who does a long and harrowing deal, then goes out and buys an expensive handbag, telling herself (and the author), "I need to buy this to remind myself why I do this".

Such is modern civilization.
2014-01-12 12:55:00 PM
2 votes:
At work. It's fun to see all the women make themselves scarce when it's time to unload the semi.
2014-01-12 12:52:53 PM
2 votes:
Here's how it works.

"This is of great urgency and relevance because I just said so and here's a whole bunch of ersatz journalism to back it up!"

No, it isn't.  It's content.  It's thematic filler.  It's a pail of piss as op ed.  It's popcorn stand manifestos for the tagline literate.

And it's not relevant, nor is it journalism, but in a age where there's not a lot of anything of value happening, it's a great way to get a cushy paycheck.  And that's all it is.  And every single clown show with a logo'd blog is swinging on those monkey bars.  Noting much changes in the world of hack sensationalism except it gets less sensational.  And we get more numb.  And some idiot thinks they won something if they respond correctly to somebody else's overwrought sense of self importance.  Meh.
2014-01-12 12:51:17 PM
2 votes:
www.funnymemes.com
2014-01-12 12:29:38 PM
2 votes:
To be fair, "traditional femininity" (e.g. women who aren't morbidly obese) has also gone the way of the dodo bird.
2014-01-12 12:27:50 PM
2 votes:

ultraholland: TFA: we need to blame... men.

This is every Jezebel article.


I read a Jezebel article recently that interviewed Camille Paglia. She and her partner have n 11 year old son. She claims society is stripping men of masculine traits, starting in childhood. She has some good points.
2014-01-12 12:27:49 PM
2 votes:
So now "masculinity" = "upper body strength"?

Why is every Jezebel article I read even dumber than the previous one?
2014-01-12 12:21:50 PM
2 votes:
"Traditional American masculinity is on its way out"

If by that you mean men are gaining a greater freedom to express themselves then yes. They don't all have to be cookie cutter replicas of each other. There are still plenty of guys out there that are comfortable being traditionally masculine but not everyone is into that nor should they be forced to. Freedom of expression is a great thing and there's no reason why we can't all do our own thing.
2014-01-12 12:20:57 PM
2 votes:
I think it farked up my idea of gender to grow up hearing things like how being a man means being tough, confident, brave, successful, ingenious, yadda yadda. I'm a girl and I think "what? I want to be those things, I want to know useful things and be able to get shiat done." I eschewed anything girly, because that message screamed to me that being a woman meant being weak, helpless, and stupid. I realized my perception was off when I got older, but now I regret not embracing more female things when I was younger and making myself into a more balanced individual.

Do we need to assign gender roles to basic personality traits? Shouldn't we teach all children to express confidence, learn how to fix things and solve problems themselves, to not back down from challenges?
2014-01-12 12:19:56 PM
2 votes:
The fun part of these articles is that they contain the assumption that 'men are only good for lifting heavy objects.'

It's true, we're Better for that than women (generally speaking).

But we're also good at lots of stuff women are good at - and better than them at other things besides heavy lifting (generally speaking).

These things we're better at than women [ generally speaking ]  include risk-taking, maintaining focus on one project for a long period of time, math and science, being competitive, not having our emotions and personalities change based upon monthly hormonal cycles, separating the personal and the professional, sustaining longterm friendships, and war.

(to what extent mens superiority [generally speaking] in those areas is because of nature or nurture I am not addressing here)

Pretty sure men will be doing just fine for a long time to come, especially once women realize that a lot of the crap they're dealing with in the working world isn't 'because I'm an oppressed woman' but 'because life is hard.'
2014-01-12 12:14:09 PM
2 votes:
I remember when these harpies were screaming at men to get in touch with their feminine side.
2014-01-12 12:09:50 PM
2 votes:

baconbeard: I understand where the author is coming from. When the only men you encounter are the pathetic, pussified gamma males taking the same gender studies courses that you are (or post to the same news aggregator site that you do), it's easy to come to the these conclusions.


As a 34 year old single male with no children, what else am I going to do with my time? I just finished Assassin's Creed 4 and /b/ gets extremely repetitive at times.
2014-01-12 12:09:40 PM
2 votes:
img1.imagesbn.com
2014-01-12 12:01:37 PM
2 votes:
She's absolutely right about it being the fault of men.

Men really need to put their foot down.
2014-01-12 11:55:36 AM
2 votes:
I could say the same for traditional American femininity. See how that looks?

Every male is a wuss! (except the all the ones that aren't)

Every female is a butch man-hater! (except all the ones that aren't)
2014-01-12 11:51:22 AM
2 votes:
And we wonder why more and more marriages are sexless and end in divorce....

Manly men are attractive, dammit.
2014-01-12 11:09:33 AM
2 votes:
Ok, from now on can we refer to Jezebel as "BibleSlut.com"?
/I can't believe they were actually applauding the "death" of manliness!
//Well, actually I can, considering they seem obsessed with "the patriarchy" and seem to have a love/hate relationship with the male gender.
///Christ, we need to start toughening up our kids! Of both genders! If we actually have a real war, we can't be stopping ever ten minutes because someone has a boo-boo or wants to discuss their feelings.
2014-01-12 10:44:19 AM
2 votes:
I'm not so feminist that I want to take out my own trash, crawl under the house to do repairs, or lift heavy things. I am willing to trade dinner making, dishes washing, and grocery shopping for these things.
2014-01-13 05:33:26 AM
1 votes:
Here's an idea for men who aren't sure how to react to all of the dichotomous demands placed upon them.

When a woman starts going off about "men should to this and they should agree to that and be this and that and never this but only like that when we want them to be and..."

Smile, nod along until </screed>, state calmly "Absolutely".  Get up, smile, excuse yourself.  Walk off.  Get on with your life.

Ta da.  I man, lets face it, if the choice is "dance puppet dance" for somebody who doesn't love or respect you anyhoo, or lonely, lonely has less.. abrasive qualities.
2014-01-13 12:41:35 AM
1 votes:
I am, according to my wife, a real man.  I work long hours as a telecom lineman in northeastern Ohio.  I'm rugged.  I have a beard, I wear flannel, and i don't whine about hard work of any kind.  Everyone I know brings me anything that needs fixed.  I don't go in for macho garbage though.  Clothes are to be functional, problems are to be solved, and tools are an appropriate gift for any man on any holiday.  This article is nonsense.  The only reason I see that the concept of being a man is faltering in this country is that men are failing to instill these things in their sons.  They prefer to pay child support and hide from the true responsibilities of being a parent.  An entire generation of young men has been raised by single mothers with little to no male influence in their lives and they turned out to be a bunch of petunias.  Don't get me wrong, female influence is a necessity, but without both you get what we have now.  A bunch of 25 year old little boys calling for roadside assistance because they don't know how to change a tire and don't want to get their manicures dirty.  Our new hires are practically worthless and actually require training to use basic hand tools and constant goading to actually do anything when it's a "bad day" out.  Say what you want about the economy  and all the changes and whatever, but it will always take hard work to keep your lights on and your internet up, and your cellphones working for IT jobs to actually be necessary.  I saw someone comment the other day about how reliable their PBX systems and landlines were compared to all those other systems...A "real man" says You're Welcome!
2014-01-12 11:06:43 PM
1 votes:

ShonenBat: I guess I'm one of the few who finds the argument compelling. The shift of a majority of women from being homemakers to the workplace,combined with the decline of the manufacturing sector and adding unto that the rise of global competition would explain a lot as far as this so-called decline in masculinity goes. As the money goes, so goes the culture.


The curious part about the "argument" is that it's being made at all, honestly. The discussion sets up a veritable forest of gender-biased strawmen, and then proceeds to attack them to validate its own bias. The fun part here is that, honestly, the very same argument can be made for "traditional American femininity" - assuming, of course, that by that term, you mean the stereotype of the passive role allegedly played by the 1950's housewife. You can set up the same strawmen (strawwomen, in this case), and then proceed to attack them with the exact same methodology used in the article. However, if you can set aside the author's clear gender bias, she makes a solid point.

The article is right, in that this has nothing to do with gender. The winners keep rewriting history - the clear post-Cold War class struggle waged by the rich on everyone else keeps getting rewritten as a "racial struggle", or a "nationalistic struggle", or a "theological struggle", or, in this case, a "gender struggle." While we're left squabbling about this agitation, the class struggle continues apace. The wedges driven between us by race, nationalism, theology, gender, and so on have little to do with the real fight, and keep us, as a nation, divided and distracted while the thieves continue to plunder this country's future and line their own pockets with it.

And, yes, the economy has made it worse. It's amazing the faults that can be forgiven, overlooked, or outright ignored when things are going well. Now that we think that things are going badly, well, we're taking a closer look at perceived causes, and so we come back to the squabbling that we've been doing for at least half a century or so.

"Masculinity" is about as useful as "femininity" in such situations as a discussion point, cause, rallying cry, whatever - that is to say, it's not useful at all. The author has couched a great point in a bizarre deflective rant, railing against an opponent I can't really see here.
2014-01-12 11:06:18 PM
1 votes:

ShonenBat: I guess I'm one of the few who finds the argument compelling. The shift of a majority of women from being homemakers to the workplace,combined with the decline of the manufacturing sector and adding unto that the rise of global competition would explain a lot as far as this so-called decline in masculinity goes. As the money goes, so goes the culture.


I think there's some merit to that, but only as a part of a larger story. (And I'm not much a fan of strong economic-determinist arguments, but setting that aside...)

For example: do you think women's lib would have been possible in a society that was not already, to great extent, "feminized"?
2014-01-12 08:15:30 PM
1 votes:

just_intonation: jennyz: And we wonder why more and more marriages are sexless and end in divorce....

Manly men are attractive, dammit.

That's because the women start saying NO as soon as they get that damn ring on their finger.

Wish we men could sue for entrapment in such cases. It's damn near criminal.


To be fair, a lot of guys stop trying to attract their wives like they did when they were dating. Some women do bate-and-switch, but a lot just slowly fall out of attraction for their spouses because they spend 7 hours a day on world of Warcraft and gain 30lbs, but expect their wives to be just as hot for the as when they were dating and he was looking hot and wooing her.
2014-01-12 06:43:19 PM
1 votes:

Gentoolive: The sissification of men started long ago. Do you notice in old black and white tv programs the father figure is a standup, respected leader of the household.

Nowadays the father figure is the brunt of any joke on television programs.


It was just as true back then, if you'll remember the Flintstones and the Jetsons. Authority figures are some of the easiest ways to get jokes.

I'll grant you it's an incredibly lazy one to pull nowadays, and I am likewise annoyed that you couldn't do the "dumb dad" act with a woman on a TV show without people crying misogyny.
2014-01-12 06:28:19 PM
1 votes:

Bumblefark: I think we've just gotten horribly confused about the concept of "traditional masculinity." People now seem to equate it with cartoonish, hyper-macho bullshiat, when traditionally that would have been regarded as a failure of masculinity.

Historically (or at least, what I've read of the intellectual history), "masculinity" has tended to be defined with four overarching themes: 1) a stoic command of one's emotions, 2) equanimity toward adversity, 3) magnanimity, especially toward women and children, and 4) self-sacrifice to duty, honor, and excellence.

I'm a traditionally masculine guy, in those terms. I drink plenty of froo-froo drinks, and have never wanted to look like Arnold. (Or He-Man, or whatever else went wrong with the masculine self-image starting in the 1980s, when musculature somehow became equated with manhood).

And, I'll admit I don't have much patience for non-masculine/emasculated/macho men -- and I don't think society is better off for having them around.


Yes, but you still go off-script, and that's the real problem for the Jezebel set.

/they don't want Johnny Depp, they want Captain Jack Sparrow
//the fact that the closest they can get to Captain Jack Sparrow is Johnny Depp made up to look and act (for a short time, in a carefully staged environment) like Captain Jack Sparrow, is all the fault of the patriarchy that denies them what they want out of pure hate and fear of their strong female role models
2014-01-12 05:05:45 PM
1 votes:

cryinoutloud: walktoanarcade: Some "men" today do look as though they've made it a point to get help to lift any object they ever needed to lift because they are scrawnier than many women.

What i hate now is that if I want to ask someone advice about my car, I have to go find an old guy. The young guys know nothing. Which is OK, since I'm an old gal, but why can't I have a scenario like this ever?

[www.betcheslovethis.com image 367x600]

"Well, ma'am, I think you need a tune-up. A little fine tuning. You gotta grab hold and tighten up a few things, move them around some. On your car, I mean. Your car--GET THE HELL AWAY FROM ME!"


My dad's an old guy who worked motorpool during the Korean conflict, and ran his own garage in the old days... And if you ask him anything about today's automobiles, he doesn't have a clue, either. They don't make them the same way, and half the time you need a computer to analyze the microchips in modern cars to know what weird-ass thing is going wrong.

I was raised to work on cars, too... But I can't troubleshoot much on a modern car. Stick a 1970s vehicle in front of me and I'll probably figure it out (and I'm no mechanic), but have me look at your 2009 model, and I'll be lost aside from the basics.

So don't blame the younger generation for this one. Blame the engineers who changed the technology enough to make cars more difficult to repair in your garage at home.
2014-01-12 04:22:39 PM
1 votes:
As usual Jezebel is moronic shiate and so is its feminist author who posits that post globalism jobs value
"compromise, communication, networking, and other skills women and girls...... "

OTOH she suggests that men have controlled the entire world for 10,000 years... presumably without any of these attributes and presumably due only to their "upper body strength".  Yet another 3rd wave moron.
2014-01-12 03:30:31 PM
1 votes:

Underwater Bystander: Isn't the idea of modern life that everyone should be whatever they want? We ("applaud" is the wrong word, but) accept when people want to do things like decide to change their gender or decide to defy expectation not fall into traditional roles in more subtle ways.

I suspect the older incarnations of masculinity will never go away. Some men will always want to look like Arnold while others will proudly order froo-froo drinks at bars. Some will do both. Neither is wrong, so why should we care? Everybody just does their own thing.

/missing the point?
//maybe


That's the ultimate end game. Until then we get to laugh at Jezebel bending over backwards to say that women should feel that way, but men are somehow a different species wherein those rules don't apply because reasons.
2014-01-12 03:21:44 PM
1 votes:

zepillin: JoieD'Zen: men should look like men.

men have facial hair

boy's do not


www-tc.pbs.org

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
2014-01-12 03:10:35 PM
1 votes:

JoieD'Zen: Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: JoieD'Zen: Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: AbiNormal:

Jesus, they're making men without chests now.

This is worse than I thought.

This all started when men began waxing their chest hair.

There needs to be a Dove advertising campaign to promote chest hair beauty.

I don't want get naked with some guy that is so hairy he looks like he is always wearing a sweater, but men should look like men.

/middle aged


That's awfully sexist and objectifying. Men should be whatever they want to be, free from oppressive cultural norms and stereotypes forced on them from their peers and the media.
2014-01-12 03:07:05 PM
1 votes:

FarkQued: studebaker hoch: Smart people don't have to work physical jobs.

You never had to stand through a 4 hour brain surgery, stress out over the details of a billion dollar deal making it through all of the hurdles, do a million situps and pushups to be in shape for a movie, etc.  Many of the highest paying jobs have some physical aspect to them, if even extreme mental focus (the brain is part of the body).  Most people would benefit from some hard labor in their life just to learn real work ethic.

As for Jezebel's article, she seems awfully pissed off that there are not enough of us manly men left to sweep her off her feet, put her in her place and fark her brains out daily, IMO.  She'd be allot happier if she'd stop picking effeminate men for boyfriends - as would all straight women.


Women don't want men. They want women with penises.
2014-01-12 02:51:10 PM
1 votes:
Jezebel.com hating everything not Lena Dunham since 2008....

Isn't Jezebel the site that wants to tell me to shut my whore mouth on any issue regarding women because I have a pair of testicles and are thus wholly unqualified to have an opinion? And yet they have an article on the death of men.....

Jezebel reminds me of Breitbart.com except replace old angry white men with young angry multi-cultural women....
2014-01-12 02:39:54 PM
1 votes:

wax_on: Oh who gives a shiat. Are the old 'masculine' gender stereotypes even worth saving? Can't we all just get along?


Okay, for serious starsrift in a gender thread (and I love being silly with these threads) - a LOT of men would be comfortable with women in 'masculine' gender roles. Not all guys, but many guys would happily say, "Sure, honey. You bring home the bread, lug all the heavy shiat, do all the house repairs, etc etc" and be perfectly comfortable cooking, cleaning, and taking care of the kids. But very few women will go along with it. Some will, and they're definitely keepers. But most female feminists, even, they don't want to do that shiat. They're actually fine with gender roles. They just want some goddamn respect and not to be looked down on. They don't want to have 'interrupted' or 'stalled' careers because they dared to have a baby. And those are all good things to want, and women should have those things.
But what they don't actually want, is to do all the shiat that men do, and take the bad along with all the good.

So it's actually perfectly appropriate that this is a discussion on Jezebel.
2014-01-12 02:32:59 PM
1 votes:

AbiNormal: [content.artofmanliness.com image 400x500]


And it's all the geldings' fault for their failure, according to Ms. Ryan.

/let the world be destroyed, we don't care
//as long as nobody dares blame us for it, our hands are clean, and that's what matters
2014-01-12 02:28:48 PM
1 votes:

ajgeek: grumpfuff: Is this the thread where men argue over what makes a "real man," while ignoring the fact that a "real man" wouldn't give two shiats about other people thinking he's not masculine enough/too masculine?

No one cares what you think. Go away and let the men talk.


image.spreadshirt.com
2014-01-12 02:18:09 PM
1 votes:

gadian: I would think men would welcome the opportunity to be a little softer and carry fewer of the traditional burdens.  After all, I know far more men who struggle with not being perceived as manly enough than struggle with being too manly


Holy fark, this. If traditional gender roles demanded I be a violent thug ruled by my sexual desires and only civilized by a rough code of honor and having basically a sex slave at home to rub my feet,  I'd be saying no. Like, why would you  want that? Being who and what  you are, with all the flaws and triumphs that comes with, is way better.
2014-01-12 01:59:19 PM
1 votes:

cryinoutloud: Oh Jezebel. Your source for manufactured outrage, step right up.

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Homo sapiens: the first species to DESERVE extinction

Very true. So true, it's truly true.


You go first...
2014-01-12 01:48:15 PM
1 votes:

JoieD'Zen: ultraholland: TFA: we need to blame... men.

This is every Jezebel article.

I read a Jezebel article recently that interviewed Camille Paglia. She and her partner have n 11 year old son. She claims society is stripping men of masculine traits, starting in childhood. She has some good points.


Yes, but by "society" they meant "men", right? I've yet to read an article on Jezebel where everything isn't men's fault. Women's problems, men's problems... all men's fault, always. In fact, according to Jezebel, women evidently aren't able to accomplish a damn thing.
2014-01-12 01:38:59 PM
1 votes:

bunner: I guess it is difficult to be a woman, these days.  The men who excite them, scare them, the ones they can tame and control bore the piss out of them, and they're up to their gazoinkies in OTHER WOMEN telling them what they should have and want and why.  Most of whom are just trying to you that the one person who should be your best friend is an oppressive, useless patriarchal prick who is holding you DOWN, honey!  Then again, anybody over the age of 18 should have SOME ability to think for themselves, yanno?


You skipped over how women tell women to look like.
It's biatchiness, all the way down.
2014-01-12 01:35:39 PM
1 votes:
Is this the thread where men argue over what makes a "real man," while ignoring the fact that a "real man" wouldn't give two shiats about other people thinking he's not masculine enough/too masculine?
2014-01-12 01:24:42 PM
1 votes:
I guess it is difficult to be a woman, these days.  The men who excite them, scare them, the ones they can tame and control bore the piss out of them, and they're up to their gazoinkies in OTHER WOMEN telling them what they should have and want and why.  Most of whom are just trying to you that the one person who should be your best friend is an oppressive, useless patriarchal prick who is holding you DOWN, honey!  Then again, anybody over the age of 18 should have SOME ability to think for themselves, yanno?
2014-01-12 01:24:27 PM
1 votes:
As long as he dicks me down -and does it well- on a regular basis, I don't give a shiat if he manly-man beats on things with a hammer all day or wears lacy underwear.
2014-01-12 01:20:35 PM
1 votes:

jennyz: Yankees Team Gynecologist: jennyz: And we wonder why more and more marriages are sexless and end in divorce....

Manly men are attractive, dammit.

Traditional, manly epitome of a vibrant and flourishing marriage:

[static.getkempt.com image 217x274]

Strawman argument, on Fark? I'm shocked.


No, you can be sure that plenty of fembloggers who rant about men having John Wayne/Rambo perceptions love to watch Mad Men, James Bond films or The Last of the Mohicans alone in a dimly-lit room.
2014-01-12 01:16:59 PM
1 votes:

gadian: I would think men would welcome the opportunity to be a little softer and carry fewer of the traditional burdens.  After all, I know far more men who struggle with not being perceived as manly enough than struggle with being too manly


It's almost like the male version of anorexia if you ignore the fact that men actually can and do develop actual anorexia. Body image problems.
2014-01-12 01:10:38 PM
1 votes:

cryinoutloud: We get tired of you guys always trying to take the boxes out of our hands, or standing around snickering because we can't lift 100 pounds like YOU can.

Well, congratulations--you're stronger than a typical woman!


Sounds sexist to me.
2014-01-12 01:03:39 PM
1 votes:
These types of articles remind me to thank FSM that I'm not a Fat Chick.
2014-01-12 12:48:30 PM
1 votes:
Oh, this is a Jezebel article. Move along, women creating nothing of value here.
2014-01-12 12:44:19 PM
1 votes:

FriarReb98: I blame hipsters.


I blame penis envy.
2014-01-12 12:41:51 PM
1 votes:

Snarfangel: It seems to be a race between artificial sperm and sexy fembots in the battle of the sexes.

Ha! Just kidding. Fembots will be first, since men will have an incentive, and tend to be well-represented in science. Artificial sperm will arrive sometime after sandwich-making robots and motorized beer dispensers.


There is absolutely no reason to believe we cannot develop an artificial womb.

Then we can all be obsolete. Just robots breeding humans in tubes for no other reason than they've been programmed to do it, and humans wandering off into a wasteland to be unemployed and die.
2014-01-12 12:17:25 PM
1 votes:
I don't completely disagree with the article when it talks about how the economy functions.  However it does not help that HR policies are too often tuned to issues of sensitivity and how it makes people feel.  That can be blamed both on men acting sexist when they had the balance of power and HR policies bouncing against past abuse to the other extreme.

But since we are talking about equality here and ultimately the dropping of assumed life roles based on penis or vagina, can we drop the stigma of a man hitting a woman and assuming men pay for first dates?

\Not that I am for a man hitting a woman, but calling it a battery against another person which is just as wrong.
2014-01-12 12:13:29 PM
1 votes:

MechaPyx: And the men just smile and nod and go back to being men confident in themselves and their ability to find a place in this world.


This.

*pats author on the head*
2014-01-12 12:12:22 PM
1 votes:

gadian: baconbeard: I understand where the author is coming from. When the only men you encounter are the pathetic, pussified gamma males taking the same gender studies courses that you are (or post to the same news aggregator site that you do), it's easy to come to the these conclusions.

WTH is a gamma male?  I thought the hate was on for those pussy Beta dudes who like to hug, let their "partners" have girls' nights out, and actually...talk about how they feel.  Is there a new man-on-man hating division?


A gamma male is a self-hating beta male... Or a Brony.
2014-01-12 12:10:36 PM
1 votes:

bunner: You don't have to pull a gun on people to steal from them.  Just keep them hating each other 24/7 while you pick their pockets.


American Government and Politics: 101.
2014-01-12 12:09:49 PM
1 votes:
She talks about computers and Internet and how men are useless in American economy, yet 90% of IT workers are male...

In fact, Jezebel, the very people who make your website available to the world are likely men. LOL.
2014-01-12 12:09:49 PM
1 votes:

jennyz: And we wonder why more and more marriages are sexless and end in divorce....

Manly men are attractive, dammit.


Traditional, manly epitome of a vibrant and flourishing marriage:

static.getkempt.com
2014-01-12 12:07:56 PM
1 votes:
Go smoke a cigar and drink some rye whiskey... Quit being sad and unremarkable.  Quit blaming everything in the world and just be a farking man.
2014-01-12 12:02:30 PM
1 votes:

Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: We need meninism to get us back on par with women.

I'll be on the couch playing video games and being a grown-up kid in the meantime.


You say that sitting on the couch playing video games makes you a grown-up kid, but it's increasingly evident that the kids who sat on a couch playing video games in the 90's are now the ones raking in money doing office jobs and technical work, while all of the manly men football players are unemployed or janitors.
2014-01-12 11:59:19 AM
1 votes:
It's always adorable how women think they can say things into existence.
2014-01-12 11:55:17 AM
1 votes:

quickdraw: DanZero: [img.photobucket.com image 600x445]

Have you ever met anyone like that? Because I never have and I live in Portland. Maybe you need to get out more.


wegotabadass.jpg
2014-01-12 11:51:57 AM
1 votes:

quickdraw: DanZero: [img.photobucket.com image 600x445]

Have you ever met anyone like that? Because I never have and I live in Portland. Maybe you need to get out more.


It describes you, doesn't it?
2014-01-12 11:32:53 AM
1 votes:
Nice to see that the pressure to be hyper-macho is lessening.
2014-01-12 11:16:45 AM
1 votes:

quickdraw: DanZero: [img.photobucket.com image 600x445]

Have you ever met anyone like that? Because I never have and I live in Portland. Maybe you need to get out more.


That's the MRA depiction of women.
2014-01-12 10:08:26 AM
1 votes:
I blame hipsters.
 
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