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(The Herald Bulletin)   SSDD: Church minister in small, conservative Indiana town fires gay man that was in leadership position. TheTimesTheyAreAChangin: 80% of their congregation QUITS because of it   (heraldbulletin.com) divider line 126
    More: Interesting, SSDD, interpretation of the Bible, United Methodist Church  
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11384 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Jan 2014 at 4:39 PM (27 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-11 11:37:02 PM

DrBenway: just_intonation: DrBenway: just_intonation: So obviously a lot of people have commented on my misunderstanding of the way Protestant churches work.

I still find it hard to believe, but I'll accept it. Seems to me that the tail is wagging the dog. Either you believe, accept and follow the Bible, or you don't. You shouldn't get to fire the preacher because he's not teaching what you want him to. It's kind of like the guy says in TFA -- you shouldn't get to pick and choose what 'laws' you follow. It's either all of them, or none of them. Try doing that with civil laws and let me know how it works out for you. Of course, I know that it's comparing apples and okra, as civil laws can be changed, but my point is that an established law based in traditional morality (e.g. murder) isn't more 'lawful' than another (e.g. theft). I guarantee you that the justice system won't see it that way...

You realize how few churches agree on what those "laws" are? And I'm talking about churches of the same denomination, never mind from sect to sect. You want to try that again?

Try what again, exactly? They all use the same Bible, don't they? What's there to agree or not agree on? Which ones to observe and which ones to ignore?

I agree that most modern religion discount the Old Testament in its entirety -- except when it suits their doctrines or is more convenient or expedient for them to justify themselves and still feel righteous. That's my point. They can't point to something like homosexuality called out as a sin in Leviticus and then, for example, completely ignore the dietary laws of Leviticus. Just like living in the world today we can't say murder is against the law and polygamy isn't because it fits our belief structure.

No, actually. They don't. Only part of the problem, don't you see? The tip of the iceberg. Your argument for some sort of monolithic interpretation of scripture across all denominations, countries and cultures is a thorough non-starter.


You misunderstand.  I'm not arguing for it.

And, unless I am grossly mistaken (and with the exception of the Apocrypha which has never been accepted as Holy Scripture -- and completely ignoring the Book of Mormon) -- all translations of what is known as The Bible come from the same source text.  How different denominations, countries and cultures choose to interpret it goes back to my original points -- which you are obviously ignoring.  Are you saying that the Ten Commandments, for example, can be interpreted differently by Southern Baptists and Lutherans?  Calvinists and Episcopalians?  'Thou Shalt Not Kiil' mean something different to Catholics?  (Okay, maybe that's a bad example, but it makes my point.)
 
2014-01-11 11:38:15 PM

s2s2s2: just_intonation: How about 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'?  Something like that.  Why did none of *them* throw a stone?  Because they were honest with themselves.

They were going to kill the guy?


Woman, actually, accused of adultery.

What if, though, it had been a man accused of homosexuality?  Is that worse than adultery in the eyes of Christianity?  Aren't they both equally condemned?
 
2014-01-11 11:45:48 PM

just_intonation: And, unless I am grossly mistaken (and with the exception of the Apocrypha which has never been accepted as Holy Scripture -- and completely ignoring the Book of Mormon) -- all translations of what is known as The Bible come from the same source text.


Nope. Catholics have several books that they recognize as fully part of the Bible, but which are referred to as "Apocrypha" only by Protestants (in fact they were originally split off as a separate section by Luther himself).
 
2014-01-11 11:54:29 PM

just_intonation: s2s2s2: just_intonation: How about 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'?  Something like that.  Why did none of *them* throw a stone?  Because they were honest with themselves.

They were going to kill the guy?

Woman, actually, accused of adultery.

What if, though, it had been a man accused of homosexuality?  Is that worse than adultery in the eyes of Christianity?  Aren't they both equally condemned?


Homosexuality isn't condemned, that's bad theology. Pagan religious practices are condemned, which included things like same-sex sexual activity as part of temple prostitution.
 
2014-01-12 12:03:03 AM

OooShiny: phalamir: And others, like Piney-Woods Bible-Believing Snake-Handling Pentecostal New Holocaust Church of the Savior...

Hey have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior?  Hey why don't you come to a fellowship and funding service at my Holy Primitive Baptist Bible Assembly Church of Godly Praise in Jesus' Name for Rebuking Condoms?

Hey where you going!!?  Hey I have pamphlets!!!1!


You don't know any Hardshells, do you?
 
2014-01-12 12:03:16 AM

just_intonation: s2s2s2: just_intonation: How about 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'?  Something like that.  Why did none of *them* throw a stone?  Because they were honest with themselves.

They were going to kill the guy?

Woman, actually, accused of adultery.

What if, though, it had been a man accused of homosexuality?  Is that worse than adultery in the eyes of Christianity?  Aren't they both equally condemned?


Penalty for adultery was death.
 
2014-01-12 12:05:27 AM

rynthetyn: just_intonation: s2s2s2: just_intonation: How about 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'?  Something like that.  Why did none of *them* throw a stone?  Because they were honest with themselves.

They were going to kill the guy?

Woman, actually, accused of adultery.

What if, though, it had been a man accused of homosexuality?  Is that worse than adultery in the eyes of Christianity?  Aren't they both equally condemned?

Homosexuality isn't condemned, that's bad theology. Pagan religious practices are condemned, which included things like same-sex sexual activity as part of temple prostitution.


That's one possible interpretation, and I won't begrudge you it, but if you take those parts of the OT as the statutory law of OT Israel, which by all indications was the situation, then I think it's fair to say that under that law and in that society, homosexuality was a criminal offense, just like cursing G-d or sleeping with your sister or eating lobster or failing to properly report mold in your dwelling to the nearest Levite Holy Moldy expert or failing to get your baby boy circumcised. The real question is why any of this should matter to Christians, particularly those in the tradition of Paul (pretty much all of them) which hold that identically structured verses in the exact same part of Leviticus (for example, body modification through ink) aren't binding on us after whatever it is God Zombie accomplished when he got nailed to a stick.
 
2014-01-12 12:09:05 AM

s2s2s2: Penalty for adultery was death.


Notably, both partners to the crime we're being stoned by an angry mob, only one of them was, which both explicitly and probably de facto wasn't the case for two men who got caught getting it on.
 
2014-01-12 12:20:14 AM

Churchill2004: s2s2s2: Penalty for adultery was death.

Notably, both partners to the crime we're being stoned by an angry mob, only one of them was, which both explicitly and probably de facto wasn't the case for two men who got caught getting it on.


I think autocorrect ate your post.
 
2014-01-12 12:25:31 AM

Xanadone: Farking sheep-stealers (as I was taught to call United Methodists -- well, not the farking part.)  I prefer a more democratic (and less homophobic) church, like the United Church of Christ, even though UCC congregations sometimes get away with treating ministers like absolute crap.


I am UCC, and we have always paid and treated our Senior Ministers well.  I know of some issues at other churches in town, though, but I don't think it is a UCC thing.  We had an openly Gay junior minister about 5 years ago, and an openly gay choir director 40 years ago.
 
2014-01-12 01:01:59 AM

s2s2s2: Churchill2004: s2s2s2: Penalty for adultery was death.

Notably, both partners to the crime we're being stoned by an angry mob, only one of them was, which both explicitly and probably de facto wasn't the case for two men who got caught getting it on.

I think autocorrect ate your post.


Yes, that shouldn't be "weren't"
 
2014-01-12 01:13:36 AM

Churchill2004: s2s2s2: Churchill2004: s2s2s2: Penalty for adultery was death.

Notably, both partners to the crime we're being stoned by an angry mob, only one of them was, which both explicitly and probably de facto wasn't the case for two men who got caught getting it on.

I think autocorrect ate your post.

Yes, that shouldn't be "weren't"


Should be?
 
2014-01-12 01:26:47 AM

wellreadneck: OooShiny: phalamir: And others, like Piney-Woods Bible-Believing Snake-Handling Pentecostal New Holocaust Church of the Savior...

Hey have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior?  Hey why don't you come to a fellowship and funding service at my Holy Primitive Baptist Bible Assembly Church of Godly Praise in Jesus' Name for Rebuking Condoms?

Hey where you going!!?  Hey I have pamphlets!!!1!


You don't know any Hardshells, do you?



Used to date a guy named Calvin who was kinda primitive, but we just knew we were elected to be predestined together for eternity after we were saved by Grace, my neighbor lady who drove us to the wedding.  However, when he forbid me from saying 'I do' out loud in church, I punched him in the beard and left.
 
2014-01-12 01:36:17 AM

Felgraf: There's a lot of places you haven't checked, then. There's a number of churches called "Congregationalsit Churches", I.e. the church elects/decides on the pastor. (For instance, the  very liberal United Church of Christ is one such church. )


Most Baptist churches are this way too.

I don't know if it's always a good thing. For the few churches that accept gay people there are plenty of others who will happily vote people out for "smaller" offenses.
 
2014-01-12 01:40:44 AM

Churchill2004: CSB about churches selecting a pastor. 

When I was 15 or so, the pastor at our family's (Assembly of God) church was "called by God" or some such bullshiat to take a gig at a bigger, better, A/G church in Dallas or something like that. The upshot being the deacons reviewed candidates, and brought forward a nice-enough guy, more practical and somewhat less charismatic (this in a church that practices faith healing and speaking in tongues) who had a decade or so under his belt at a slightly smaller A/G church in Tyler, Texas. 

So aside from the usual questions and formalities and meet-and-greet, came a somewhat unusual admission. The reason he was leaving his church in Tyler was because his sister-in-law had literally stoned her young infants to death on her front yard one evening, after being told to do so by God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. At the trial, the pastor and his preaching were harshly scrutinized for whatever role they might have played. We even got to see him testify in a Court TV re-run. 

After all this was made known, as well as the more expected stuff about his style and theology and priorities, the congregation (all members over 16) were asked to vote via secret ballot whether or not to accept him as pastor. While the conclusion was foregone, but the vote turned out to be *unanimous* (out of ~500 votes cast perhaps) in favor of accepting him as the new head pastor.


Tyler, TX.  A wretched hive of good ol' boys and crazy religious people. There's something in the water there.

/ lived there for 3 years
 
2014-01-12 02:16:45 AM

cfreak: Tyler, TX.  A wretched hive of good ol' boys and crazy religious people. There's something in the water there.

/ lived there for 3 years


Awesome zoo, though. We used to drive down from Texarkana once a year when we lived there. 

.

s2s2s2: Yes, that shouldn't be "weren't"

Should be?


It's my post and I'll be cromulent if I want to.
 
2014-01-12 02:24:51 AM

phalamir: And others, like Piney-Woods Bible-Believing Snake-Handling Pentecostal New Holocaust Church of the Savior, pretty much tell hierarchy to fark off [Note: I made the name of that last one up, but (1) it describes way too many churches in rural America, and (2) I wouldn't be surprised in the least if some church in Lesser Derpistan Alabama didn't have that exact damn name].


There was a woman here who died a few years back from going to one of those snake handling churches and getting bit in the face twice. Apparently the ER staff made fun of her while she was dying. shiatty but if you pick up a poisonous snake expecting nothing to go wrong well then perhaps it was Darwin and not a god watching you.
/Also any church around here that has an ambulance in their parking lot is usually one of those churches.
//Southeast Ky is weird.
 
2014-01-12 03:00:46 AM
cfreak: Tyler, TX. A wretched hive of good ol' boys and crazy religious people. There's something in the water there.

/ lived there for 3 years



Moved to Tyler with family in 1979, having never even heard of it prior.  It was fractionally smaller than the city we came from.  It was really really quiet.  But there was something palpable in the air, and it was Stepford-creepy.  Local grocery chain sackers were blindingly-shiny-white Christian boys with identical white shirts and black bow ties.  No blacks or girls allowed.  Biggest church in town, Green Acres Baptist, still owns more land than the city and is frothing Teapublican Goober Gohmert's home church.

There were, and still are, only two high schools with an invisible wall of separation more impassible than the physical wall in Berlin.  Robert E. Lee is the white school, the other school's for blacks, and ne'er the twain shall meet.

Back then, the local black radio station by law had to sign off at dusk.  'Married with Children' was banned in advance from Tyler airwaves so as not to offend.  It was illegal to buy pantyhose on Sunday.  Cop cars were color of fluorescent urine.  When I asked where's the beer, they said 30 miles south across the lake.  Just last year, Tyler voted to sell beer inside city limits, something my family believed would not happened in our lifetimes.

The one local newspaper was, and still is, heavily sanitized and censored so as not to distress.  It still runs a 'Daily Bible Verse' column front and center.

Republican sheriff was relected for a whopping 34 years until he finally retired.  The movie 'Rush' with Gregg Allman and Jason Patric was about Tyler's clusterfark of drug-bust corruption and death.  The surface of Tyler has modernized in the last five years, but beneath it is still rigidly virulently controlled by hard-right Republican Christians.

This is not a city of hope for youth, blacks, women, Hispanics, gays or atheists, so congrats to all who make it out.
 
2014-01-12 03:16:29 AM
Churchill2004: Awesome zoo, though. We used to drive down from Texarkana once a year when we lived there.

First time I went to Caldwell Zoo, was horrified to see their only lion in a steel-barred box just like a prison cell, and so small he could only take a few steps before having to turn around as he paced, paced, paced back and forth.  The other animal housing was not much better.

I did not return until over a decade had passed.  To their credit, the zoo has obviously become much larger and vastly more civilized since then, but that old image of the jailed pacing lion reflected a lot about 1980s Tyler.
 
2014-01-12 03:38:13 AM
All this talk of gay choir directors and east Texas has me thinking about Bernie now (the Richard Linklater film w/Jack Black).
 
2014-01-12 03:58:16 AM

just_intonation: FTA: "It's almost like he's hijacked the church," David Steele said. "He is completely going against what the church body wants."

The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.  And that generally applies to all religions -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever.


Who is the church if not the people in it?  The last time I checked, Protestants don't have a pope.
 
2014-01-12 04:03:49 AM

ZeroCorpse: I still don't understand why any gay person would WANT to be a member of a religion that has persecuted, murdered, and attacked gay people throughout history. It seems masochistic, to say the least.

But then, I don't understand how Black people can be Christian either, when it was Christianity that endorsed slavery and allowed slave owners to justify their actions, and the slaves were FORCED to switch to Christian worship because of their owners.


Yeah.  I don't get why there are Black Americans, either.
 
2014-01-12 08:03:17 AM

LoneVVolf: So only the straight clergy can f*ck altar boys? How's that work...


Only pedophiles can fark alter boys.
No room for just gay guys.
 
2014-01-12 08:13:51 AM

ZeroCorpse: I still don't understand why any gay person would WANT to be a member of a religion that has persecuted, murdered, and attacked gay people throughout history. It seems masochistic, to say the least.

But then, I don't understand how Black people can be Christian either, when it was Christianity that endorsed slavery and allowed slave owners to justify their actions, and the slaves were FORCED to switch to Christian worship because of their owners.

It just seems ridiculous to me that people who were historically and traditionally hurt by Christians would decide to join them.


Yup.  Friend of mine from High School (20+ years after HS) visited with me and told me he was in the midst of hormone treatments and was gong to transgender.  He was sad, because he is a devout Christian, born again and all that, and he knew his church would not accept him after the surgery.  It was a huge deal for him.. almost as huge as the transgendering itself.
Why would you want to join a club that would never accept you as a member?
 
2014-01-12 10:18:09 AM
The gay man in the "leadership position" would be the "pitcher," right? He's the one who should do the firing. What am I reading here?
 
2014-01-12 01:07:33 PM

santadog: Why would you want to join a club that would never accept you as a member?


Or, in this case, given the criteria, why would you want to join one that would?
 
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