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(The Herald Bulletin)   SSDD: Church minister in small, conservative Indiana town fires gay man that was in leadership position. TheTimesTheyAreAChangin: 80% of their congregation QUITS because of it   (heraldbulletin.com) divider line 126
    More: Interesting, SSDD, interpretation of the Bible, United Methodist Church  
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11393 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Jan 2014 at 4:39 PM (35 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



126 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-01-11 04:41:31 PM
Until you find out that they quit because the church had been forever tainted.
 
2014-01-11 04:41:50 PM
Good for them. Hopefully they can get rid of the minister and have their church back.
 
2014-01-11 04:41:50 PM
This is one of those weird things that will only happen in a place like the Methodist Church. Most places have a democratic process (or at least a board of elders) who have the authority to kick out a new pastor who doesn't jive with the congregation's beliefs.
 
2014-01-11 04:43:26 PM
Good
 
2014-01-11 04:43:59 PM
good for them.
 
2014-01-11 04:46:49 PM
What did they expect?  You pretty much have to assume that any guy who would take on the title of choral director is a flamer.
 
2014-01-11 04:47:39 PM

Fubini: This is one of those weird things that will only happen in a place like the Methodist Church. Most places have a democratic process (or at least a board of elders) who have the authority to kick out a new pastor who doesn't jive with the congregation's beliefs.


I was wondering about that. Way back when I still attended church (I got better) the pastor served at the pleasure of the congregation and could be put out on their ass for fracturing the church like that. Though, I grew up Lutheran and not Methodist, so maybe they have a different system going--maybe more like the Catholics, who have a priest assigned by the diocese or something.
 
2014-01-11 04:50:11 PM
FTA: "It's almost like he's hijacked the church," David Steele said. "He is completely going against what the church body wants."

The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.  And that generally applies to all religions -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever.

Now, having said that, I do applaud them for standing up for what they believe is right.
 
2014-01-11 04:50:11 PM
So only the straight clergy can f*ck altar boys? How's that work...
 
2014-01-11 04:53:13 PM

just_intonation: FTA: "It's almost like he's hijacked the church," David Steele said. "He is completely going against what the church body wants."

The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.  And that generally applies to all religions -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever.

Now, having said that, I do applaud them for standing up for what they believe is right.


There's a lot of places you haven't checked, then. There's a number of churches called "Congregationalsit Churches", I.e. the church elects/decides on the pastor. (For instance, the  very liberal United Church of Christ is one such church. )
 
2014-01-11 04:53:57 PM

just_intonation: The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.


You have no idea how protestant churches work, do you?
 
2014-01-11 04:53:59 PM
FTA: "Then, earlier this year, a new minister came in who said he was uncomfortable with Fraley leading the music."

Hm. Something about protesting and how the minister doeth it too much...
 
2014-01-11 04:54:02 PM

just_intonation: FTA: "It's almost like he's hijacked the church," David Steele said. "He is completely going against what the church body wants."

The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.  And that generally applies to all religions -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever.

Now, having said that, I do applaud them for standing up for what they believe is right.


Nope, for some Christians the congregation is the "Church".
 
2014-01-11 04:54:09 PM

just_intonation: The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.  And that generally applies to all religions -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever.


I believe that even within the Methodist church staffing positions and the like are hired by the congregation or the board of elders. It sounds like they would be entirely within their rights to keep this guy on as the music director.

It sounds like the pastor was a jerk, though.
 
2014-01-11 04:54:18 PM
Farking sheep-stealers (as I was taught to call United Methodists -- well, not the farking part.)  I prefer a more democratic (and less homophobic) church, like the United Church of Christ, even though UCC congregations sometimes get away with treating ministers like absolute crap.
 
2014-01-11 04:55:15 PM

Ima4nic8or: What did they expect?  You pretty much have to assume that any guy who would take on the title of choral director is a flamer.


Hey now!  My rookie from college was a choral director!  He was not a flamer!

/he was arrested for banging a teen
//and seemed to be regressive-trait ephebophile
///and appeared to be gay-in-denial you know what nevermind.
 
2014-01-11 04:55:20 PM

Ima4nic8or: What did they expect?  You pretty much have to assume that any guy who would take on the title of choral director is a flamer.


This. Of the ten or so churches I've attended in my life, six had paid music directors. Of the four who were men, three were pretty obviously gay, and the other was also the choir director at a small Christian college nearby.

/he could have been gay too for all I know, but he was married to a woman
 
2014-01-11 04:55:34 PM

Xanadone: Farking sheep-stealers (as I was taught to call United Methodists -- well, not the farking part.)  I prefer a more democratic (and less homophobic) church, like the United Church of Christ, even though UCC congregations sometimes get away with treating ministers like absolute crap.


UCC churchs are largely open to believe what they want. They can be homophobic if they want. (Though it would be a little incongruous to do so.)
 
2014-01-11 04:56:49 PM

just_intonation: The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.


Church self-governance at a local, decentralized, congregational level is in fact a very big thing with most mainline Protestant denominations- it goes back to the very root of Protestantism. In most American churches the pastor is subject to a confirmation vote by the members.
 
2014-01-11 05:00:06 PM

Xanadone: Farking sheep-stealers (as I was taught to call United Methodists -- well, not the farking part.)  I prefer a more democratic (and less homophobic) church, like the United Church of Christ, even though UCC congregations sometimes get away with treating ministers like absolute crap.


Yay, someone else who is aware that the UCC *exists*. (I grew up in a UCC church, and even if my spiritual views have drifted... I'm still very proud of them. The pastor recently got arrested in NC, for protesting the batshiat insanity that the legislature there has become...)

Fubini: UCC churchs are largely open to believe what they want. They can be homophobic if they want. (Though it would be a little incongruous to do so.)


While that was true for a while (Due to the congregationalist nature), most of the homophobes left after he 2005 synod, where the UCC *as a whole* voted to be Open and Affirming, and support gay marriage.

It didn't really make the news, though. I couldn't even get it posted on fark.
 
GBB
2014-01-11 05:01:32 PM
The Protestants protested?

At least they know their origins.
 
2014-01-11 05:02:45 PM

Felgraf: Xanadone: Farking sheep-stealers (as I was taught to call United Methodists -- well, not the farking part.)  I prefer a more democratic (and less homophobic) church, like the United Church of Christ, even though UCC congregations sometimes get away with treating ministers like absolute crap.

Yay, someone else who is aware that the UCC *exists*. (I grew up in a UCC church, and even if my spiritual views have drifted... I'm still very proud of them. The pastor recently got arrested in NC, for protesting the batshiat insanity that the legislature there has become...)

Fubini: UCC churchs are largely open to believe what they want. They can be homophobic if they want. (Though it would be a little incongruous to do so.)

While that was true for a while (Due to the congregationalist nature), most of the homophobes left after he 2005 synod, where the UCC *as a whole* voted to be Open and Affirming, and support gay marriage.

It didn't really make the news, though. I couldn't even get it posted on fark.


I grew up UCC also. I haven't been to one in years (most recently attended Unity, which makes UCC look downright fundie) but I also am very happy to hear this.
 
2014-01-11 05:04:02 PM

GBB: The Protestants protested?

At least they know their origins.


Had they nailed their written protest  to the church door, that would have been good.
 
2014-01-11 05:05:42 PM
CSB about churches selecting a pastor. 

When I was 15 or so, the pastor at our family's (Assembly of God) church was "called by God" or some such bullshiat to take a gig at a bigger, better, A/G church in Dallas or something like that. The upshot being the deacons reviewed candidates, and brought forward a nice-enough guy, more practical and somewhat less charismatic (this in a church that practices faith healing and speaking in tongues) who had a decade or so under his belt at a slightly smaller A/G church in Tyler, Texas. 

So aside from the usual questions and formalities and meet-and-greet, came a somewhat unusual admission. The reason he was leaving his church in Tyler was because his sister-in-law had literally stoned her young infants to death on her front yard one evening, after being told to do so by God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. At the trial, the pastor and his preaching were harshly scrutinized for whatever role they might have played. We even got to see him testify in a Court TV re-run. 

After all this was made known, as well as the more expected stuff about his style and theology and priorities, the congregation (all members over 16) were asked to vote via secret ballot whether or not to accept him as pastor. While the conclusion was foregone, but the vote turned out to be *unanimous* (out of ~500 votes cast perhaps) in favor of accepting him as the new head pastor.
 
2014-01-11 05:07:06 PM
He said along his own journey, he has come to form his own theory about Christianity and homosexuality. He said the law forbidding a man to lay with another man in Leviticus is one of the few Christians still observe.

"I don't like how people pick and choose which verses they want to apply," said Fraley, who considers himself a Christian. "The Bible also says gluttony and divorce are bad but people seem to ignore those."


Amen brother, amen.
 
2014-01-11 05:11:09 PM

Churchill2004: The reason he was leaving his church in Tyler was because his sister-in-law had literally stoned her young infants to death on her front yard one evening, after being told to do so by God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.


What a nut!  The Bible clearly states you're supposed to take your children outside the city gates before you stone them to death.  Maybe Tyler, TX doesn't have city gates?
 
2014-01-11 05:12:02 PM

hardinparamedic: just_intonation: The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.

You have no idea how protestant churches work, do you?


I know I don't. Anybody know a good reference on how many flavors Protestants come in and what they believe in?
 
2014-01-11 05:12:16 PM

namegoeshere: I grew up UCC also. I haven't been to one in years (most recently attended Unity, which makes UCC look downright fundie) but I also am very happy to hear this.


It's possible I may have the wording down slightly wrong, but yeah. I definately remember that being a thing.

*digs up*

Ah, found it!

http://www.ucc.org/news/general-synod-calls-for-full-marriage-equali ty .htm
 
2014-01-11 05:12:57 PM
By the numbers The United Methodist Church saw a drop of 71,000 members in 2011, the last year numbers were available. While the church is declining in the U.S., membership is increasing throughout the world.

This is going to become a big deal for the UMC in the coming years.  For a while, UMC was a fairly liberal, tolerant church.  But their drive to increase membership in other, more conservative countries, is going to start having an effect when those conservative members start demanding more influence.
 
2014-01-11 05:15:44 PM

simplicimus: I know I don't. Anybody know a good reference on how many flavors Protestants come in and what they believe in?


Enjoy!

To explain my comment, most protestant churches are governed at the local level, even if their doctrines are set by the unified denominational body. This is especially true for non-denominational protestant churches.

A local church can have just as much politics going on behind the scenes as an election would, and pastors can be easily ousted by the Church Elders or Church Council.
 
2014-01-11 05:16:06 PM
According to United Methodist Church law, gay people are welcome to attend services but the line is drawn at positions of leadership.

The law states, "self-avowed, practicing homosexuals are not to be certified as candidates, ordained as ministers, or appointed to serve in The United Methodist Church."


/Ah you wacky Methodists and your preaching of Jesus, and how he loves all of us, unless you are gay. Then you get the boot. Funny, isn't it, how most organized religions claim to follow the loving preachings of this or that deity, but when it comes down the the brass tacks, it is really just a club of people who want to feel superior to others. A club. Funny how those preach love and tolerance, but have the balls to selectively edit what they practice.
 
2014-01-11 05:17:00 PM
"Spiffy" tag fired for being too gay.
 
2014-01-11 05:19:32 PM

Fubini: pastor who doesn't jive with


Jibe. The word is "jibe."
 
2014-01-11 05:23:52 PM
Felgraf: The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.  And that generally applies to all religions -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever.

My wife is Jewish.  Their congregation selects their own rabbi and hires him/her.  If the rabbi were to fracture the congregation like that, he'd be gone.
 
2014-01-11 05:23:55 PM
I still don't understand why any gay person would WANT to be a member of a religion that has persecuted, murdered, and attacked gay people throughout history. It seems masochistic, to say the least.

But then, I don't understand how Black people can be Christian either, when it was Christianity that endorsed slavery and allowed slave owners to justify their actions, and the slaves were FORCED to switch to Christian worship because of their owners.

It just seems ridiculous to me that people who were historically and traditionally hurt by Christians would decide to join them.
 
2014-01-11 05:24:21 PM

a particular individual: Fubini: pastor who doesn't jive with

Jibe. The word is "jibe."


static.fjcdn.com

Sheeeeit.
 
2014-01-11 05:26:59 PM
Yay, gay buttseks for everyone!
 
2014-01-11 05:27:07 PM

Ima4nic8or: What did they expect?  You pretty much have to assume that any guy who would take on the title of choral director is a flamer.


What is wrong with you? Not your obvious flaws as a human being, but your need to broadcast them?
 
2014-01-11 05:31:12 PM

Churchill2004: just_intonation: The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.

Church self-governance at a local, decentralized, congregational level is in fact a very big thing with most mainline Protestant denominations- it goes back to the very root of Protestantism. In most American churches the pastor is subject to a confirmation vote by the members.


well when the offering plate comes back empty something is going to change
 
2014-01-11 05:33:02 PM

KenShabby: a particular individual: Fubini: pastor who doesn't jive with

Jibe. The word is "jibe."

[static.fjcdn.com image 697x655]

Sheeeeit.


Excuse me, Stewardess, I speak Jive.

reggiestake.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-01-11 05:33:09 PM

just_intonation: FTA: "It's almost like he's hijacked the church," David Steele said. "He is completely going against what the church body wants."

The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.  And that generally applies to all religions -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever.

Now, having said that, I do applaud them for standing up for what they believe is right.


Heh.  Watch what happens when a Lutheran minister crosses the President of the church council.  I've watched my grandmother fire one minister, and my mother negotiate with the local bishop to "swap" the current pastor for someone else.  It was very clear who was in charge in those discussions, and it wasn't the person who was ordained.  If the pastor isn't in step with the council, he's getting replaced pretty quick.

Pastors get to cross council only when it comes to theological doctrine.  On everything else they are the worker, not the executive.
 
2014-01-11 05:35:38 PM
Um, the guy wasn't fired, he quit because he felt that the new priest in charge didn't like him, and because he was being made to do actual work associated with the position where apparently he wasn't before.

Again, the new priest didn't do anything specific to even cause him to quit, he just  didn't like him in a demonstrative enough fashion.

This isn't a gay rights thing, it's the usual junior-high-school drama bullshiat you get at small nonprofit anything... and in all frankness the gay guy isn't exactly the sympathetic one in the conflict, he's essentially just being a drama queen because he feels slighted that every social sub-group in the church isn't sucking his cock hard enough.

// Being gay and having a conflict of personality with a religious person doesn't mean you're automatically in the right, sometimes it's still you that's being the entitled little shiat.  Good job killing the sky-fairy club or whatever, Mr. Mean Girl.
 
2014-01-11 05:39:59 PM

hardinparamedic: simplicimus: I know I don't. Anybody know a good reference on how many flavors Protestants come in and what they believe in?

Enjoy!

To explain my comment, most protestant churches are governed at the local level, even if their doctrines are set by the unified denominational body. This is especially true for non-denominational protestant churches.

A local church can have just as much politics going on behind the scenes as an election would, and pastors can be easily ousted by the Church Elders or Church Council.


Thanks! Bookmarked.
 
2014-01-11 05:42:57 PM

Jim_Callahan: Um, the guy wasn't fired, he quit because he felt that the new priest in charge didn't like him, and because he was being made to do actual work associated with the position where apparently he wasn't before.

Again, the new priest didn't do anything specific to even cause him to quit, he just  didn't like him in a demonstrative enough fashion.

This isn't a gay rights thing, it's the usual junior-high-school drama bullshiat you get at small nonprofit anything... and in all frankness the gay guy isn't exactly the sympathetic one in the conflict, he's essentially just being a drama queen because he feels slighted that every social sub-group in the church isn't sucking his cock hard enough.

// Being gay and having a conflict of personality with a religious person doesn't mean you're automatically in the right, sometimes it's still you that's being the entitled little shiat.  Good job killing the sky-fairy club or whatever, Mr. Mean Girl.


Really? RTFA:

"After six months on the job, the church got a new interim minister, David Mantor, in September. Steele, who served as the intermediary between the congregation and the minister, said the church body hoped the new minister would allow Fraley to come back as choir director.
After originally saying he was fine with Fraley coming back, the Steeles said Mantor changed his mind three weeks after he was hired.
The next day Mantor asked for David Steele's keys, saying he could no longer serve, but David refused to quit. Three weeks later, the district superintendent met with the church leaders and relieved David Steele of his duties.
Steele said the district superintendent told him he was no longer supporting the positions of the minister and therefore was neglecting his duty."
 
2014-01-11 05:42:59 PM
Easy solution: give up these old fairy tales and join the modern world.
 
2014-01-11 05:43:49 PM

Jim_Callahan: Um, the guy wasn't fired, he quit because he felt that the new priest in charge didn't like him, and because he was being made to do actual work associated with the position where apparently he wasn't before.

Again, the new priest didn't do anything specific to even cause him to quit, he just  didn't like him in a demonstrative enough fashion.

This isn't a gay rights thing, it's the usual junior-high-school drama bullshiat you get at small nonprofit anything... and in all frankness the gay guy isn't exactly the sympathetic one in the conflict


about gotdamned time someone spotted that
 
2014-01-11 05:53:27 PM
  Religion is a hell of a drug!


/A stupid, ignorant, shameless drug, that makes people feel justified for being idiots
 
2014-01-11 05:56:42 PM

Ima4nic8or: What did they expect?  You pretty much have to assume that any guy who would take on the title of choral director is a flamer.


Hey now--I have been in choirs with a few directors who were straight. And there was the bisexual female director in high school...

/I miss Ms Jones
//Coolest director ever
 
2014-01-11 05:58:49 PM

Boojum2k: Good for them. Hopefully they can get rid of the minister and have their church back.


THIS. Why fix what is not broken?
 
2014-01-11 06:00:07 PM

just_intonation: The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.

Sir needs to learn what presbyterian means.
 
2014-01-11 06:00:40 PM
In the United Methodist Church, pastors are 'appointed' by a bishop, not hired by a congregation. The congregation has some say but ultimately the decision rests with the bishop. District Superintendents serve under the bishop as a supervisor to a region of churches and pastors, and they are the ones who step in when a local church has a conflict. Staff members like custodians, secretaries, choir directors, youth leaders are hired by the local church by a Staff Parish Relations Committee (sort of like the human resources committee for the church). While the pastor obviously has some power in a church, the SPR committee actually hires and fires. It would be a stupid pastor who tries to do the hiring and firing directly as it burns up a lot of your political capital in the local church and could get you in a lot of hot water with various factions of a congregation.

In the United Methodist Church, there are no rules banning gays and lesbians in any way shape or form except that they cannot, at this time, serve as an ordained pastor. Many in the United Methodist Church are hoping that this rule can be changed but the influence of the Asian and African wings of the church are very opposed to this.
 
2014-01-11 06:03:49 PM
the decision is up to the minister and the congregation. The question is, who has the final say. The Steeles think it should be the congregation, but the district leaders disagreed. The congregation ultimately has the final say on who the minister is.

So - the proper thing to do should have for them to fire their minister and get a more tolerant one.
 
2014-01-11 06:07:14 PM
GardenWeasel:
Really? RTFA:


Yeah, he was fired  after he came back under a new minister.  That doesn't counter my interpretation, it  supportsit.  The congregation talks the new guy into hiring drama queen employee back, he presumably pulls the same shiat that pissed off the previous guy, and instead of waiting for the motherfarker to go off in a huff again the new boss, who has other more important shiat to do, treats him like a new hire (which, at this point, he IS.  When you quit in a huff and then come back half a year later, you're ENTRY LEVEL now) and fires him for being an entitled dick that's dragging everyone else down with him.

"No longer supporting the minister" is management speak here for violating the chain of command and making trouble by acting like he owns the place.  Which... is a very legitimate problem to have with an employee, and if they won't back down it's a very fireable one, because it wastes a huge amount of the boss's time that could be spent on actual useful tasks.
 
2014-01-11 06:09:18 PM

Ima4nic8or: What did they expect?  You pretty much have to assume that any guy who would take on the title of choral director is a flamer.


I read that as "charcoal director"
 
2014-01-11 06:10:58 PM

Churchill2004: CSB about churches selecting a pastor. 

When I was 15 or so, the pastor at our family's (Assembly of God) church was "called by God" or some such bullshiat to take a gig at a bigger, better, A/G church in Dallas or something like that. The upshot being the deacons reviewed candidates, and brought forward a nice-enough guy, more practical and somewhat less charismatic (this in a church that practices faith healing and speaking in tongues) who had a decade or so under his belt at a slightly smaller A/G church in Tyler, Texas. 

So aside from the usual questions and formalities and meet-and-greet, came a somewhat unusual admission. The reason he was leaving his church in Tyler was because his sister-in-law had literally stoned her young infants to death on her front yard one evening, after being told to do so by God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. At the trial, the pastor and his preaching were harshly scrutinized for whatever role they might have played. We even got to see him testify in a Court TV re-run. 

After all this was made known, as well as the more expected stuff about his style and theology and priorities, the congregation (all members over 16) were asked to vote via secret ballot whether or not to accept him as pastor. While the conclusion was foregone, but the vote turned out to be *unanimous* (out of ~500 votes cast perhaps) in favor of accepting him as the new head pastor.


Deanna (sp?) Laney case, if I recall (one of three cases that's been an especially frequently noted case of "what happens when severe psychotic depression AND dominionism and its demon-haunted world intersect")...and sadly, I can't say I'm at all surprised in that result.  It's partly shiat like that (more in the "overt fraud" and less of "quite possibly contributed to a murder in encouraging a severely psychotic woman in TEOTWAWKI fantasies rather than referring her to legitimate mental health agencies", but still...) why I walked away from the Assemblies as a teenager. :P

(And for those who aren't aware...well...basically combine small Assemblies of God congregation very heavily into "deliverance ministry" and "prosperity gospel", mix it with a woman who is having psychotic depression whith strong religious ideations (as part of her psychosis) who believes she and Andrea Yates are the "Two Endtime Witnesses" that are supposed to be martyred halfway through the Tribulation in Assemblies End-Time Mythos and who is hearing voices telling her to kill her kids to show her devotion to the Abrahamic God a la Abraham and Isaac, and mix THAT with a congregation who interprets her outcries in church that The End Is Nigh less as a sign of "listen, get some help now" and much more as a sign that "Teh Holy Spirit Is Upon Her And She's A-Prophecyin', Praise Jeezus"...well, mix all this together, and you end up with two dead kids, a third with permanent brain damage, and the second psychiatric evaluation in history ruling that a woman's participation in a coercive dominionist church was a contributing factor to psychotic depression turning to homicidal psychotic depression.)

/btw, congrats on surviving that
 
2014-01-11 06:14:00 PM
Minister is an ass who is flexing his muscle and finding it blew up in his face.
 
2014-01-11 06:16:54 PM

GardenWeasel: Jim_Callahan: Um, the guy wasn't fired, he quit because he felt that the new priest in charge didn't like him, and because he was being made to do actual work associated with the position where apparently he wasn't before.

Again, the new priest didn't do anything specific to even cause him to quit, he just  didn't like him in a demonstrative enough fashion.

This isn't a gay rights thing, it's the usual junior-high-school drama bullshiat you get at small nonprofit anything... and in all frankness the gay guy isn't exactly the sympathetic one in the conflict, he's essentially just being a drama queen because he feels slighted that every social sub-group in the church isn't sucking his cock hard enough.

// Being gay and having a conflict of personality with a religious person doesn't mean you're automatically in the right, sometimes it's still you that's being the entitled little shiat.  Good job killing the sky-fairy club or whatever, Mr. Mean Girl.

Really? RTFA:

"After six months on the job, the church got a new interim minister, David Mantor, in September. Steele, who served as the intermediary between the congregation and the minister, said the church body hoped the new minister would allow Fraley to come back as choir director.
After originally saying he was fine with Fraley coming back, the Steeles said Mantor changed his mind three weeks after he was hired.
The next day Mantor asked for David Steele's keys, saying he could no longer serve, but David refused to quit. Three weeks later, the district superintendent met with the church leaders and relieved David Steele of his duties. Steele said the district superintendent told him he was no longer supporting the positions of the minister and therefore was neglecting his duty."


The UMC has annual conferences in which the district supers and the bishop either re-confirm or re-assign pastors.  This usually occurs around June, and for the article to mention an interim pastor coming in Sept, and the d.s. getting involved by Oct. at the latest means there is a huge conflict, and has probably been going on for a lot longer than anyone cares to admit.  From Steele being told to hand over keys, I think he is probably a trustee chair or even staff/parish relations chair.  This church may have caused a bunch of headaches at conference level, may even be costing the conference money by not paying apportionments, and driving the givers out of the pews with all the political infighting.  This stuff with the choir director was probably the straw that broke the camel's back at the conference.

In the south, the UMC is growing because of the number of people leaving more restrictive denominations.  It managed to overcome the restrictions Peter and Paul put on women in leadership, it had better live up to its motto of "open minds, open hearts, open doors" or the outcome is going to be ugly.
 
2014-01-11 06:17:31 PM

KenShabby: a particular individual: Fubini: pastor who doesn't jive with

Jibe. The word is "jibe."

[static.fjcdn.com image 697x655]

Sheeeeit.


hardinparamedic: KenShabby: a particular individual: Fubini: pastor who doesn't jive with

Jibe. The word is "jibe."

[static.fjcdn.com image 697x655]

Sheeeeit.

Excuse me, Stewardess, I speak Jive.

[reggiestake.files.wordpress.com image 600x338]



3jibe
intransitive verb
jibed  jib·ing
Definition of JIBE
:  to be in accord  :
 
2014-01-11 06:20:40 PM

hardinparamedic: simplicimus: I know I don't. Anybody know a good reference on how many flavors Protestants come in and what they believe in?

Enjoy!

To explain my comment, most protestant churches are governed at the local level, even if their doctrines are set by the unified denominational body. This is especially true for non-denominational protestant churches.

A local church can have just as much politics going on behind the scenes as an election would, and pastors can be easily ousted by the Church Elders or Church Council.



Years back, when the Southern Baptist Convention declared a boycott on Disney for "gay days" the local SB churches responded by bussing kids to a Sunday matinee of Hercules. Sometimes even the unified denominational body has little control.
 
2014-01-11 06:20:44 PM

Churchill2004: So aside from the usual questions and formalities and meet-and-greet, came a somewhat unusual admission. The reason he was leaving his church in Tyler was because his sister-in-law had literally stoned her young infants to death on her front yard one evening, after being told to do so by God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. At the trial, the pastor and his preaching were harshly scrutinized for whatever role they might have played. We even got to see him testify in a Court TV re-run.


Would this be the case?
 
2014-01-11 06:22:09 PM

grimlock1972: Minister is an ass who is flexing his muscle and finding it blew up in his face.


Choir director is a Flaming attention whore and finding the unenjoyment line.
 
2014-01-11 06:25:50 PM

Great Porn Dragon: Deanna (sp?) Laney case, if I recall (one of three cases that's been an especially frequently noted case of "what happens when severe psychotic depression AND dominionism and its demon-haunted world intersect")


Who else is in that triumvirate? Andrea Yates is definitely one of them. I want to say Dena Schlosser is the third one.

/interestingly, all three lived in Texas
//and both Laney and Schlosser have been released from the hospital
 
2014-01-11 06:32:02 PM
Email for church, in case you want to express your views:  a­lex­fir­st[nospam-﹫-backwards]labolg­c­b­s*n­et
 
2014-01-11 06:36:12 PM

Fubini: This is one of those weird things that will only happen in a place like the Methodist Church. Most places have a democratic process (or at least a board of elders) who have the authority to kick out a new pastor who doesn't jive with the congregation's beliefs.


Actually its not, there was baptist church near me whose pastor wound up having to leave because he had disowned his own grandson who told him he was gay, most of the congregation walked out that day and in under a month church leaders had to ask him to step down.

Most people dont care anymore which is why people need to quit acting like they are so persecuted because of it, the congregations take on it was even if he is gay its not for him to disown or chastise, it was not mans place to judge.
 
2014-01-11 06:39:22 PM

Felgraf: namegoeshere: I grew up UCC also. I haven't been to one in years (most recently attended Unity, which makes UCC look downright fundie) but I also am very happy to hear this.

It's possible I may have the wording down slightly wrong, but yeah. I definately remember that being a thing.

*digs up*

Ah, found it!

http://www.ucc.org/news/general-synod-calls-for-full-marriage-equali ty .htm


Thank you,  Good stuff, that.

Article's a bit dusty, though, Just so's you know.
 
2014-01-11 06:47:18 PM
I believe that all parties with a vested interest in this are essentially functionally retarded, small Indiana town?  Convert the church into a kickass bar, everone wins. \m/
 
2014-01-11 06:53:45 PM

Jim_Callahan: GardenWeasel:
Really? RTFA:


Yeah, he was fired  after he came back under a new minister.  That doesn't counter my interpretation, it  supportsit.  The congregation talks the new guy into hiring drama queen employee back, he presumably pulls the same shiat that pissed off the previous guy, and instead of waiting for the motherfarker to go off in a huff again the new boss, who has other more important shiat to do, treats him like a new hire (which, at this point, he IS.  When you quit in a huff and then come back half a year later, you're ENTRY LEVEL now) and fires him for being an entitled dick that's dragging everyone else down with him.

"No longer supporting the minister" is management speak here for violating the chain of command and making trouble by acting like he owns the place.  Which... is a very legitimate problem to have with an employee, and if they won't back down it's a very fireable one, because it wastes a huge amount of the boss's time that could be spent on actual useful tasks.


Apparently though, 80% of the church membership thinks you're full of crap. But still and all, I'm sure your perspective is the correct one.
 
2014-01-11 06:56:06 PM

just_intonation: The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around. And that generally applies to all religions -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever.


The liberal end of Christianity and Judaism is pointing and laughing.
 
2014-01-11 06:57:08 PM

hardinparamedic: just_intonation: The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.

You have no idea how protestant churches work, do you?


It depends on which one. There are dozens of major groups and thousands of smaller groups all with conflicting rules and doctrine. A fair amount of them would side with the pastor in this case.
 
2014-01-11 07:06:23 PM
Churchill2004: The reason he was leaving his church in Tyler was because his sister-in-law had literally stoned her young infants to death on her front yard one evening, after being told to do so by God

Have roots in Tyler but completely missed this story; was living in Dallas at the time.  Just read details of what happened and was horrified.  The lone surviving child, an infant at the time of stoning, is blind and has severe permanent neurological/brain damage; child lives with father.

Deanna Laney was released from a mental hospital in 2012, judged as "no longer mentally ill".  Interesting that her husband apparently has not divorced her and stood by her through the trial, as Andrea Yates' husband did for quite a while.

Pastor Gary Bell's parents were lifelong AOG preachers, Bell himself is now at a Pine Bluff, Arkansas AOG church and his 6-year-old son is now preaching at same church.   Pine Bluff describes Bell as having "contagious zeal and an incredible anointing."  Also says that "for a season he did not remain faithful to that early training" but he "surrendered to God's call at age 19."  Have no idea what that "season" and "unfaithful" thing means.
 
2014-01-11 07:09:04 PM

Great Porn Dragon: Churchill2004: CSB about churches selecting a pastor. 

When I was 15 or so, the pastor at our family's (Assembly of God) church was "called by God" or some such bullshiat to take a gig at a bigger, better, A/G church in Dallas or something like that. The upshot being the deacons reviewed candidates, and brought forward a nice-enough guy, more practical and somewhat less charismatic (this in a church that practices faith healing and speaking in tongues) who had a decade or so under his belt at a slightly smaller A/G church in Tyler, Texas. 

So aside from the usual questions and formalities and meet-and-greet, came a somewhat unusual admission. The reason he was leaving his church in Tyler was because his sister-in-law had literally stoned her young infants to death on her front yard one evening, after being told to do so by God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. At the trial, the pastor and his preaching were harshly scrutinized for whatever role they might have played. We even got to see him testify in a Court TV re-run. 

After all this was made known, as well as the more expected stuff about his style and theology and priorities, the congregation (all members over 16) were asked to vote via secret ballot whether or not to accept him as pastor. While the conclusion was foregone, but the vote turned out to be *unanimous* (out of ~500 votes cast perhaps) in favor of accepting him as the new head pastor.

Deanna (sp?) Laney case, if I recall (one of three cases that's been an especially frequently noted case of "what happens when severe psychotic depression AND dominionism and its demon-haunted world intersect")...and sadly, I can't say I'm at all surprised in that result.  It's partly shiat like that (more in the "overt fraud" and less of "quite possibly contributed to a murder in encouraging a severely psychotic woman in TEOTWAWKI fantasies rather than referring her to legitimate mental health agencies", but still...) why I walked away from the Assemblies as a teenager. ...


My grandfather was a Wesleyan-holiness minister. My aunt got pregnant after a rape at age fourteen and she was so messed in the head from the guilt they laid on her that she had the delusion the baby was Jesus. They actually made my grandfather and family leave that congregation and move to another location because she was so 'sinful'. Screw that judgmental church and everyone in it. She's almost sixty and still cries when she talks about how four of the 'elders' came to their house and called her a whore of babylon.
 
2014-01-11 07:11:13 PM

Boojum2k: Years back, when the Southern Baptist Convention declared a boycott on Disney for "gay days" the local SB churches responded by bussing kids to a Sunday matinee of Hercules. Sometimes even the unified denominational body has little control.


Actually, they boycotted Disney for extending benefits for same-sex domestic partners. I was a Southern Baptist at the time, and that's when I starting realizing that this denomination and I have some severe doctrinal disagreements.
 
2014-01-11 07:11:26 PM

namegoeshere: Felgraf: Xanadone: Farking sheep-stealers (as I was taught to call United Methodists -- well, not the farking part.)  I prefer a more democratic (and less homophobic) church, like the United Church of Christ, even though UCC congregations sometimes get away with treating ministers like absolute crap.

Yay, someone else who is aware that the UCC *exists*. (I grew up in a UCC church, and even if my spiritual views have drifted... I'm still very proud of them. The pastor recently got arrested in NC, for protesting the batshiat insanity that the legislature there has become...)

Fubini: UCC churchs are largely open to believe what they want. They can be homophobic if they want. (Though it would be a little incongruous to do so.)

While that was true for a while (Due to the congregationalist nature), most of the homophobes left after he 2005 synod, where the UCC *as a whole* voted to be Open and Affirming, and support gay marriage.

It didn't really make the news, though. I couldn't even get it posted on fark.

I grew up UCC also. I haven't been to one in years (most recently attended Unity, which makes UCC look downright fundie) but I also am very happy to hear this.


You might enjoy this.  Had the opportunity to see it live.

http://www.ucc.org/news/significant-speeches/a-politics-of-conscienc e. html
 
2014-01-11 07:16:38 PM

soporific: Boojum2k: Years back, when the Southern Baptist Convention declared a boycott on Disney for "gay days" the local SB churches responded by bussing kids to a Sunday matinee of Hercules. Sometimes even the unified denominational body has little control.

Actually, they boycotted Disney for extending benefits for same-sex domestic partners. I was a Southern Baptist at the time, and that's when I starting realizing that this denomination and I have some severe doctrinal disagreements.



Was that it? I thought it was the "gay days" but the benefits sounds right. Either way, the local SB branches told them to EABOD.
 
2014-01-11 07:17:07 PM
Okay, a few things come to mind:

1. Good luck finding many choir directors to chose from who don't like men. God forbid you give the job to a capable female if there's that much pearl clutching over a gay man.
2. Choir = drama. Choir + Church =  drama of epic proportions.
3. There is often not much of a payoff in terms of musical satisfaction for a director to put up with poor treatment in the average church choir (with a few notable exceptions, of course).

These choirs need directors who are not deterred by drama and are, more importantly, TOLERANT of it.

Gay choir directors are worth their weight in gold for putting up with a plethora of judgmental, tonally-challenged, gossipy old biddies.  Pay them handsomely and be grateful that they put up with this crap.

/This is exactly why I became an instrumentalist. I refuse any and all musical theatre pit orchestra gigs, despite playing all woodwinds. No. Drama.
 
2014-01-11 07:27:46 PM

buzzcut73: Fubini: This is one of those weird things that will only happen in a place like the Methodist Church. Most places have a democratic process (or at least a board of elders) who have the authority to kick out a new pastor who doesn't jive with the congregation's beliefs.

I was wondering about that. Way back when I still attended church (I got better) the pastor served at the pleasure of the congregation and could be put out on their ass for fracturing the church like that. Though, I grew up Lutheran and not Methodist, so maybe they have a different system going--maybe more like the Catholics, who have a priest assigned by the diocese or something.


In the UMC, the congregation makes a recommendation to the District Superintendents and Bishop of the Conference.  Basically it can be "We all want to have his babies", "Meh", or "Blood for the Blood God!".  There is also a guideline of moving ministers around about every 4-5 years.The DSs and Bishop take those recommendations into account when assigning ministers each year, but are not bound by them.  For the most part, unless there is a massive personality conflict, ministers stay for a few years in a given church before moving on.  Now, congregation complaints can get a minister shoved out the door, and the DSs and Bishops do try and at least keep everyone at least at "Meh" level, but if they need to cover a hole from death, quitting, or somesuch, even the cult of personality minster can get moved*.  And part of the point is to keep congregations from getting complacent.  You can't get rid of the minister at will, and you can't keep the same minister forever, so learn to deal.**

*CSB: my minister friends considered one guy a cautionary tale.  He was a nice guy, never had any disciplinary problems, conscientious at his duties.  But he literally could not give a decent sermon to save his life.  He got moved every year, because congregations could not stand listening to him preach (not due to content, but for delivery). So, he got moved around each year to spread the misery as evenly as possible.  Evidently, everyone lived in fear of being uprooted to cover the hole left by moving Mr. Coma-Inducing each year.

**CSB2: in my childhood church (moderate-to-severe conservative), the minister they still mention fondly was a relatively hippie-esque sort.  While the one they muttered under their breath about was pretty much smack dab in the middle of their socio-theological spectrum.   Pastor Hippie would never have been chosen by them, if they had their druthers.
 
2014-01-11 07:29:51 PM

saxchick: Okay, a few things come to mind:

1. Good luck finding many choir directors to chose from who don't like men. God forbid you give the job to a capable female if there's that much pearl clutching over a gay man.
2. Choir = drama. Choir + Church =  drama of epic proportions.
3. There is often not much of a payoff in terms of musical satisfaction for a director to put up with poor treatment in the average church choir (with a few notable exceptions, of course).

These choirs need directors who are not deterred by drama and are, more importantly, TOLERANT of it.

Gay choir directors are worth their weight in gold for putting up with a plethora of judgmental, tonally-challenged, gossipy old biddies.  Pay them handsomely and be grateful that they put up with this crap.

/This is exactly why I became an instrumentalist. I refuse any and all musical theatre pit orchestra gigs, despite playing all woodwinds. No. Drama.


And that's just the baritones.
 
2014-01-11 07:31:15 PM
Great Porn Dragon: ....the second psychiatric evaluation in history ruling that a woman's participation in a coercive dominionist church was a contributing factor to psychotic depression turning to homicidal psychotic depression.

Both Deanna Laney and Andrea Yates were home-schooling, fundamentalist husband-submitting mothers who claimed they had to kill their children for god.  Both called 911 and reported, with zero emotion, they stoned/drowned their kids.

Psychiatrist Park Dietz testified at both trials.

He said Andrea was NOT insane, that she got the idea to kill her kids from an episode of Law and Order.  As a result, Andrea was judged as guilty, definitely not insane and went to prison.  Verdict later overturned on appeal due to Dietz' testimony being bullshiat, in part because no such episode ever aired.

Dietz testified Deanna WAS insane because she claimed when one child had bowel issues, this was a sign from god that she was not 'digesting god's word correctly.'  As a result, Deanna was judged not guilty and definitely insane, was sent to a mental hospital and released in 2012.
 
2014-01-11 08:07:41 PM

just_intonation: FTA: "It's almost like he's hijacked the church," David Steele said. "He is completely going against what the church body wants."

The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.  And that generally applies to all religions -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever.

Now, having said that, I do applaud them for standing up for what they believe is right.


In Protestant churches, the congregation is the highest source of the preacher's pay. Historically, this led to the firing of a lot of preachers in antebellum times depending on how well the preacher's opinions on slavery lined up with the congregation's.
 
2014-01-11 08:10:20 PM

notto: namegoeshere: Felgraf: Xanadone: Farking sheep-stealers (as I was taught to call United Methodists -- well, not the farking part.)  I prefer a more democratic (and less homophobic) church, like the United Church of Christ, even though UCC congregations sometimes get away with treating ministers like absolute crap.

Yay, someone else who is aware that the UCC *exists*. (I grew up in a UCC church, and even if my spiritual views have drifted... I'm still very proud of them. The pastor recently got arrested in NC, for protesting the batshiat insanity that the legislature there has become...)

Fubini: UCC churchs are largely open to believe what they want. They can be homophobic if they want. (Though it would be a little incongruous to do so.)

While that was true for a while (Due to the congregationalist nature), most of the homophobes left after he 2005 synod, where the UCC *as a whole* voted to be Open and Affirming, and support gay marriage.

It didn't really make the news, though. I couldn't even get it posted on fark.

I grew up UCC also. I haven't been to one in years (most recently attended Unity, which makes UCC look downright fundie) but I also am very happy to hear this.

You might enjoy this.  Had the opportunity to see it live.

http://www.ucc.org/news/significant-speeches/a-politics-of-conscienc e. html


That was interesting. Thank you.
 
2014-01-11 08:27:17 PM

OooShiny: Dietz testified Deanna WAS insane because she claimed when one child had bowel issues, this was a sign from god that she was not 'digesting god's word correctly.'  As a result, Deanna was judged not guilty and definitely insane, was sent to a mental hospital and released in 2012.


Thinking bowel issues are message from God = insane

Thinking God listens to your prayers, cares about your sex life, impregnates virgins and hates gays = not insane

OK, got it.
 
2014-01-11 08:27:46 PM
So obviously a lot of people have commented on my misunderstanding of the way Protestant churches work.

I still find it hard to believe, but I'll accept it.  Seems to me that the tail is wagging the dog.  Either you believe, accept and follow the Bible, or you don't.  You shouldn't get to fire the preacher because he's not teaching what you want him to.  It's kind of like the guy says in TFA -- you shouldn't get to pick and choose what 'laws' you follow.  It's either all of them, or none of them.  Try doing that with civil laws and let me know how it works out for you.  Of course, I know that it's comparing apples and okra, as civil laws can be changed, but my point is that an established law based in traditional morality (e.g. murder) isn't more 'lawful' than another (e.g. theft).  I guarantee you that the justice system won't see it that way...
 
2014-01-11 08:39:35 PM

just_intonation: So obviously a lot of people have commented on my misunderstanding of the way Protestant churches work.

I still find it hard to believe, but I'll accept it.  Seems to me that the tail is wagging the dog.  Either you believe, accept and follow the Bible, or you don't.  You shouldn't get to fire the preacher because he's not teaching what you want him to.  It's kind of like the guy says in TFA -- you shouldn't get to pick and choose what 'laws' you follow.  It's either all of them, or none of them.  Try doing that with civil laws and let me know how it works out for you.  Of course, I know that it's comparing apples and okra, as civil laws can be changed, but my point is that an established law based in traditional morality (e.g. murder) isn't more 'lawful' than another (e.g. theft).  I guarantee you that the justice system won't see it that way...


You realize how few churches agree on what those "laws" are? And I'm talking about churches of the same denomination, never mind from sect to sect. You want to try that again?
 
2014-01-11 08:42:06 PM

just_intonation: So obviously a lot of people have commented on my misunderstanding of the way Protestant churches work.


There is no "way Protestant church work".  They have never been monolithic.  Some work exactly as you describe.  Some don't.  The particular denomination involved in TFA is the UMC.  They do have a hierarchical structure.  But the SBC, for example, are only loosely hierarchical.  And others, like Piney-Woods Bible-Believing Snake-Handling Pentecostal New Holocaust Church of the Savior, pretty much tell hierarchy to fark off [Note: I made the name of that last one up, but (1) it describes way too many churches in rural America, and (2) I wouldn't be surprised in the least if some church in Lesser Derpistan Alabama didn't have that exact damn name].
 
2014-01-11 08:58:45 PM

Felgraf: Xanadone: Farking sheep-stealers (as I was taught to call United Methodists -- well, not the farking part.)  I prefer a more democratic (and less homophobic) church, like the United Church of Christ, even though UCC congregations sometimes get away with treating ministers like absolute crap.

Yay, someone else who is aware that the UCC *exists*. (I grew up in a UCC church, and even if my spiritual views have drifted... I'm still very proud of them. The pastor recently got arrested in NC, for protesting the batshiat insanity that the legislature there has become...)

Fubini: UCC churchs are largely open to believe what they want. They can be homophobic if they want. (Though it would be a little incongruous to do so.)

While that was true for a while (Due to the congregationalist nature), most of the homophobes left after he 2005 synod, where the UCC *as a whole* voted to be Open and Affirming, and support gay marriage.

It didn't really make the news, though. I couldn't even get it posted on fark.


The United Church of Canada rocks, and I say this as an atheist. Not only did they have gay ministers and perform same sex marriages, they were intervenors in the court cases and gave testimony to parliamentary committees and helped get it legalized here. They're at the front lines of any social justice cause, and the first place I call if I need, say, host families for Indian social workers in Canada getting traning from HIV service agencies is the United Church congregations. They're good people.
 
2014-01-11 09:25:22 PM

Felgraf: Xanadone: Farking sheep-stealers (as I was taught to call United Methodists -- well, not the farking part.)  I prefer a more democratic (and less homophobic) church, like the United Church of Christ, even though UCC congregations sometimes get away with treating ministers like absolute crap.

Yay, someone else who is aware that the UCC *exists*. (I grew up in a UCC church, and even if my spiritual views have drifted... I'm still very proud of them. The pastor recently got arrested in NC, for protesting the batshiat insanity that the legislature there has become...)

Fubini: UCC churchs are largely open to believe what they want. They can be homophobic if they want. (Though it would be a little incongruous to do so.)

While that was true for a while (Due to the congregationalist nature), most of the homophobes left after he 2005 synod, where the UCC *as a whole* voted to be Open and Affirming, and support gay marriage.

It didn't really make the news, though. I couldn't even get it posted on fark.


I'm a member of a UCC church. They just asked me if I wanted to leave.

/Been out of area for 16 months
//I've attended a local UCC church, I like it, but for some reason getting up on Sundays became really hard.
 
2014-01-11 09:39:03 PM
"I don't like how people pick and choose which verses they want to apply," said Fraley, who considers himself a Christian. "The Bible also says gluttony and divorce are bad but people seem to ignore those."

Then the obvious answer is to follow all the laws, and that would leave you out of the job.

What you meant was "I don't like when they pick and choose different laws than I pick and choose."

/Doesn't go to church because I don't want to pick and choose, either.
//mmmmmmm shrimp
//currently wearing a cotton/poly hoodie
 
2014-01-11 09:41:49 PM

DrBenway: just_intonation: So obviously a lot of people have commented on my misunderstanding of the way Protestant churches work.

I still find it hard to believe, but I'll accept it.  Seems to me that the tail is wagging the dog.  Either you believe, accept and follow the Bible, or you don't.  You shouldn't get to fire the preacher because he's not teaching what you want him to.  It's kind of like the guy says in TFA -- you shouldn't get to pick and choose what 'laws' you follow.  It's either all of them, or none of them.  Try doing that with civil laws and let me know how it works out for you.  Of course, I know that it's comparing apples and okra, as civil laws can be changed, but my point is that an established law based in traditional morality (e.g. murder) isn't more 'lawful' than another (e.g. theft).  I guarantee you that the justice system won't see it that way...

You realize how few churches agree on what those "laws" are? And I'm talking about churches of the same denomination, never mind from sect to sect. You want to try that again?


I'm guessing he (or she?) doesn't realize that there are over 38000 different Protestant denominations. Just a random wild guess here, but I don't think the reason for all those schisms is because they all agree on policy, theology, and religious law and edict.

/Christian
//can't wrap my head around gay hate... or any kind of hate for that matter
///WWJD? Well, I don't ever remember reading "Hate one another" in my bible...
 
2014-01-11 09:45:13 PM

Aigoo: WWJD


Matthew 5:18-19
 
2014-01-11 09:45:16 PM
phalamir: And others, like Piney-Woods Bible-Believing Snake-Handling Pentecostal New Holocaust Church of the Savior...

Hey have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior?  Hey why don't you come to a fellowship and funding service at my Holy Primitive Baptist Bible Assembly Church of Godly Praise in Jesus' Name for Rebuking Condoms?

Hey where you going!!?  Hey I have pamphlets!!!1!
 
2014-01-11 10:15:27 PM

KenShabby: a particular individual: Fubini: pastor who doesn't jive with

Jibe. The word is "jibe."



Sheeeeit.


Best lulz I've had in weeks!
 
2014-01-11 10:21:20 PM

DrBenway: just_intonation: So obviously a lot of people have commented on my misunderstanding of the way Protestant churches work.

I still find it hard to believe, but I'll accept it.  Seems to me that the tail is wagging the dog.  Either you believe, accept and follow the Bible, or you don't.  You shouldn't get to fire the preacher because he's not teaching what you want him to.  It's kind of like the guy says in TFA -- you shouldn't get to pick and choose what 'laws' you follow.  It's either all of them, or none of them.  Try doing that with civil laws and let me know how it works out for you.  Of course, I know that it's comparing apples and okra, as civil laws can be changed, but my point is that an established law based in traditional morality (e.g. murder) isn't more 'lawful' than another (e.g. theft).  I guarantee you that the justice system won't see it that way...

You realize how few churches agree on what those "laws" are? And I'm talking about churches of the same denomination, never mind from sect to sect. You want to try that again?


Try what again, exactly?  They all use the same Bible, don't they?  What's there to agree or not agree on?  Which ones to observe and which ones to ignore?

I agree that most modern religion discount the Old Testament in its entirety -- except when it suits their doctrines or is more convenient or expedient for them to justify themselves and still feel righteous.  That's my point.  They can't point to something like homosexuality called out as a sin in Leviticus and then, for example, completely ignore the dietary laws of Leviticus.  Just like living in the world today we can't say murder is against the law and polygamy isn't because it fits our belief structure.
 
2014-01-11 10:26:37 PM

Aigoo: DrBenway: just_intonation: So obviously a lot of people have commented on my misunderstanding of the way Protestant churches work.

I still find it hard to believe, but I'll accept it.  Seems to me that the tail is wagging the dog.  Either you believe, accept and follow the Bible, or you don't.  You shouldn't get to fire the preacher because he's not teaching what you want him to.  It's kind of like the guy says in TFA -- you shouldn't get to pick and choose what 'laws' you follow.  It's either all of them, or none of them.  Try doing that with civil laws and let me know how it works out for you.  Of course, I know that it's comparing apples and okra, as civil laws can be changed, but my point is that an established law based in traditional morality (e.g. murder) isn't more 'lawful' than another (e.g. theft).  I guarantee you that the justice system won't see it that way...

You realize how few churches agree on what those "laws" are? And I'm talking about churches of the same denomination, never mind from sect to sect. You want to try that again?

I'm guessing he (or she?) doesn't realize that there are over 38000 different Protestant denominations. Just a random wild guess here, but I don't think the reason for all those schisms is because they all agree on policy, theology, and religious law and edict.

/Christian
//can't wrap my head around gay hate... or any kind of hate for that matter
///WWJD? Well, I don't ever remember reading "Hate one another" in my bible...


How about 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'?  Something like that.  Why did none of *them* throw a stone?  Because they were honest with themselves.

/I was going to include a very long phrase full of adjectives after that last sentence, but decided not to
 
2014-01-11 10:41:03 PM

just_intonation: DrBenway: just_intonation: So obviously a lot of people have commented on my misunderstanding of the way Protestant churches work.

I still find it hard to believe, but I'll accept it. Seems to me that the tail is wagging the dog. Either you believe, accept and follow the Bible, or you don't. You shouldn't get to fire the preacher because he's not teaching what you want him to. It's kind of like the guy says in TFA -- you shouldn't get to pick and choose what 'laws' you follow. It's either all of them, or none of them. Try doing that with civil laws and let me know how it works out for you. Of course, I know that it's comparing apples and okra, as civil laws can be changed, but my point is that an established law based in traditional morality (e.g. murder) isn't more 'lawful' than another (e.g. theft). I guarantee you that the justice system won't see it that way...

You realize how few churches agree on what those "laws" are? And I'm talking about churches of the same denomination, never mind from sect to sect. You want to try that again?

Try what again, exactly? They all use the same Bible, don't they? What's there to agree or not agree on? Which ones to observe and which ones to ignore?

I agree that most modern religion discount the Old Testament in its entirety -- except when it suits their doctrines or is more convenient or expedient for them to justify themselves and still feel righteous. That's my point. They can't point to something like homosexuality called out as a sin in Leviticus and then, for example, completely ignore the dietary laws of Leviticus. Just like living in the world today we can't say murder is against the law and polygamy isn't because it fits our belief structure.


No, actually. They don't. Only part of the problem, don't you see? The tip of the iceberg. Your argument for some sort of monolithic interpretation of scripture across all denominations, countries and cultures is a thorough non-starter.
 
2014-01-11 10:51:59 PM

OooShiny: Great Porn Dragon: ....the second psychiatric evaluation in history ruling that a woman's participation in a coercive dominionist church was a contributing factor to psychotic depression turning to homicidal psychotic depression.

Both Deanna Laney and Andrea Yates were home-schooling, fundamentalist husband-submitting mothers who claimed they had to kill their children for god.  Both called 911 and reported, with zero emotion, they stoned/drowned their kids.

Psychiatrist Park Dietz testified at both trials.

He said Andrea was NOT insane, that she got the idea to kill her kids from an episode of Law and Order.  As a result, Andrea was judged as guilty, definitely not insane and went to prison.  Verdict later overturned on appeal due to Dietz' testimony being bullshiat, in part because no such episode ever aired.

Dietz testified Deanna WAS insane because she claimed when one child had bowel issues, this was a sign from god that she was not 'digesting god's word correctly.'  As a result, Deanna was judged not guilty and definitely insane, was sent to a mental hospital and released in 2012.


And those are only two of the stories where mental illness and fundamentalism combined with tragic ends. Some colleagues of mine have been cataloging the cases that specifically happened within homeschooling, so many involve untreated mental illness among people who don't believe that mental illness even exists.

Back on topic, with only one exception, the paid worship leaders at the churches I've been at have all been straight, married men. A scandal occurred at the church my family was at when I was little because the music minister had an affair with the wife of the chairman of the deacon board. As far as the worship leader who actually was gay, that's in a ridiculously conservative denomination, and while he's since moved on to different things, still can't manage to get excommunicated despite expecting it to be inevitable.
 
2014-01-11 10:58:50 PM

Great Porn Dragon: Deanna (sp?) Laney case, if I recall (one of three cases that's been an especially frequently noted case of "what happens when severe psychotic depression AND dominionism and its demon-haunted world intersect")...and sadly, I can't say I'm at all surprised in that result.  It's partly shiat like that (more in the "overt fraud" and less of "quite possibly contributed to a murder in encouraging a severely psychotic woman in TEOTWAWKI fantasies rather than referring her to legitimate mental health agencies", but still...) why I walked away from the Assemblies as a teenager. :P

(And for those who aren't aware...well...basically combine small Assemblies of God congregation very heavily into "deliverance ministry" and "prosperity gospel", mix it with a woman who is having psychotic depression whith strong religious ideations (as part of her psychosis) who believes she and Andrea Yates are the "Two Endtime Witnesses" that are supposed to be martyred halfway through the Tribulation in Assemblies End-Time Mythos and who is hearing voices telling her to kill her kids to show her devotion to the Abrahamic God a la Abraham and Isaac, and mix THAT with a congregation who interprets her outcries in church that The End Is Nigh less as a sign of "listen, get some help now" and much more as a sign that "Teh Holy Spirit Is Upon Her And She's A-Prophecyin', Praise Jeezus"...well, mix all this together, and you end up with two dead kids, a third with permanent brain damage, and the second psychiatric evaluation in history ruling that a woman's participation in a coercive dominionist church was a contributing factor to psychotic depression turning to homicidal psychotic depression.)

/btw, congrats on surviving that


You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Both my now-(same-sex)-husband and I are very glad I never got outed in either that church or the Boy Scouts while living in Arkansas. It would not have been pleasant- being sent off to a pray-the-gay-away camp was a distinct possibility. And there's a special, special place in the hottest circle of hell for the faith healer who convinced my mother she'd been cured of her fybromyalgia and addiction to pain pills. Seriously, that's probably the only person on the Earth I'd stab to death in an uncontrollable rage if I ever saw him again, and being told to by Gawd wouldn't have anything to do with it.

Paris1127: Churchill2004: So aside from the usual questions and formalities and meet-and-greet, came a somewhat unusual admission. The reason he was leaving his church in Tyler was because his sister-in-law had literally stoned her young infants to death on her front yard one evening, after being told to do so by God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. At the trial, the pastor and his preaching were harshly scrutinized for whatever role they might have played. We even got to see him testify in a Court TV re-run.

Would this be the case?


Yup. Gary Bell is the pastor in question, currently (at least last I heard), of Pine Bluff 1st A/G. 

OooShiny: Pastor Gary Bell's parents were lifelong AOG preachers, Bell himself is now at a Pine Bluff, Arkansas AOG church and his 6-year-old son is now preaching at same church.   Pine Bluff describes Bell as having "contagious zeal and an incredible anointing."  Also says that "for a season he did not remain faithful to that early training" but he "surrendered to God's call at age 19."  Have no idea what that "season" and "unfaithful" thing means.


That's the guy and the church, and it basically means he was a rebellious little drunkard, partier, etc. before he had his come-to-Jesus moment. He officiated my mother's funeral. He's really a nice guy, such as these things go, but yeah- once your theology has inspired child-murder, being a nice guy only goes so far.
 
2014-01-11 11:01:09 PM

KenShabby: a particular individual: Fubini: pastor who doesn't jive with

Jibe. The word is "jibe."

[static.fjcdn.com image 697x655]

Sheeeeit.


Translation: "Golly!"
 
2014-01-11 11:07:52 PM
By the way, I had no idea Deana Laney had been released until now. Thanks for giving me my daily reason for losing faith in humanity. Of all the people to not put in the fast lane for a date with a deadly needle... seriously, Texas?
 
2014-01-11 11:11:28 PM

OooShiny: Bell himself is now at a Pine Bluff, Arkansas AOG church and his 6-year-old son is now preaching at same church.


Forgot to add: I was totally there and remember when she got pregnant. It was a miracle of group prayer, loudly announced and celebrated, because she'd previously had a miscarriage or something like that. That kid's gonna either grow up to be some kind of messed up, or an Assembly of God preacher, but I repeat myself....
 
2014-01-11 11:16:08 PM

just_intonation: How about 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'?  Something like that.  Why did none of *them* throw a stone?  Because they were honest with themselves.


They were going to kill the guy?
 
2014-01-11 11:37:02 PM

DrBenway: just_intonation: DrBenway: just_intonation: So obviously a lot of people have commented on my misunderstanding of the way Protestant churches work.

I still find it hard to believe, but I'll accept it. Seems to me that the tail is wagging the dog. Either you believe, accept and follow the Bible, or you don't. You shouldn't get to fire the preacher because he's not teaching what you want him to. It's kind of like the guy says in TFA -- you shouldn't get to pick and choose what 'laws' you follow. It's either all of them, or none of them. Try doing that with civil laws and let me know how it works out for you. Of course, I know that it's comparing apples and okra, as civil laws can be changed, but my point is that an established law based in traditional morality (e.g. murder) isn't more 'lawful' than another (e.g. theft). I guarantee you that the justice system won't see it that way...

You realize how few churches agree on what those "laws" are? And I'm talking about churches of the same denomination, never mind from sect to sect. You want to try that again?

Try what again, exactly? They all use the same Bible, don't they? What's there to agree or not agree on? Which ones to observe and which ones to ignore?

I agree that most modern religion discount the Old Testament in its entirety -- except when it suits their doctrines or is more convenient or expedient for them to justify themselves and still feel righteous. That's my point. They can't point to something like homosexuality called out as a sin in Leviticus and then, for example, completely ignore the dietary laws of Leviticus. Just like living in the world today we can't say murder is against the law and polygamy isn't because it fits our belief structure.

No, actually. They don't. Only part of the problem, don't you see? The tip of the iceberg. Your argument for some sort of monolithic interpretation of scripture across all denominations, countries and cultures is a thorough non-starter.


You misunderstand.  I'm not arguing for it.

And, unless I am grossly mistaken (and with the exception of the Apocrypha which has never been accepted as Holy Scripture -- and completely ignoring the Book of Mormon) -- all translations of what is known as The Bible come from the same source text.  How different denominations, countries and cultures choose to interpret it goes back to my original points -- which you are obviously ignoring.  Are you saying that the Ten Commandments, for example, can be interpreted differently by Southern Baptists and Lutherans?  Calvinists and Episcopalians?  'Thou Shalt Not Kiil' mean something different to Catholics?  (Okay, maybe that's a bad example, but it makes my point.)
 
2014-01-11 11:38:15 PM

s2s2s2: just_intonation: How about 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'?  Something like that.  Why did none of *them* throw a stone?  Because they were honest with themselves.

They were going to kill the guy?


Woman, actually, accused of adultery.

What if, though, it had been a man accused of homosexuality?  Is that worse than adultery in the eyes of Christianity?  Aren't they both equally condemned?
 
2014-01-11 11:45:48 PM

just_intonation: And, unless I am grossly mistaken (and with the exception of the Apocrypha which has never been accepted as Holy Scripture -- and completely ignoring the Book of Mormon) -- all translations of what is known as The Bible come from the same source text.


Nope. Catholics have several books that they recognize as fully part of the Bible, but which are referred to as "Apocrypha" only by Protestants (in fact they were originally split off as a separate section by Luther himself).
 
2014-01-11 11:54:29 PM

just_intonation: s2s2s2: just_intonation: How about 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'?  Something like that.  Why did none of *them* throw a stone?  Because they were honest with themselves.

They were going to kill the guy?

Woman, actually, accused of adultery.

What if, though, it had been a man accused of homosexuality?  Is that worse than adultery in the eyes of Christianity?  Aren't they both equally condemned?


Homosexuality isn't condemned, that's bad theology. Pagan religious practices are condemned, which included things like same-sex sexual activity as part of temple prostitution.
 
2014-01-12 12:03:03 AM

OooShiny: phalamir: And others, like Piney-Woods Bible-Believing Snake-Handling Pentecostal New Holocaust Church of the Savior...

Hey have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior?  Hey why don't you come to a fellowship and funding service at my Holy Primitive Baptist Bible Assembly Church of Godly Praise in Jesus' Name for Rebuking Condoms?

Hey where you going!!?  Hey I have pamphlets!!!1!


You don't know any Hardshells, do you?
 
2014-01-12 12:03:16 AM

just_intonation: s2s2s2: just_intonation: How about 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'?  Something like that.  Why did none of *them* throw a stone?  Because they were honest with themselves.

They were going to kill the guy?

Woman, actually, accused of adultery.

What if, though, it had been a man accused of homosexuality?  Is that worse than adultery in the eyes of Christianity?  Aren't they both equally condemned?


Penalty for adultery was death.
 
2014-01-12 12:05:27 AM

rynthetyn: just_intonation: s2s2s2: just_intonation: How about 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'?  Something like that.  Why did none of *them* throw a stone?  Because they were honest with themselves.

They were going to kill the guy?

Woman, actually, accused of adultery.

What if, though, it had been a man accused of homosexuality?  Is that worse than adultery in the eyes of Christianity?  Aren't they both equally condemned?

Homosexuality isn't condemned, that's bad theology. Pagan religious practices are condemned, which included things like same-sex sexual activity as part of temple prostitution.


That's one possible interpretation, and I won't begrudge you it, but if you take those parts of the OT as the statutory law of OT Israel, which by all indications was the situation, then I think it's fair to say that under that law and in that society, homosexuality was a criminal offense, just like cursing G-d or sleeping with your sister or eating lobster or failing to properly report mold in your dwelling to the nearest Levite Holy Moldy expert or failing to get your baby boy circumcised. The real question is why any of this should matter to Christians, particularly those in the tradition of Paul (pretty much all of them) which hold that identically structured verses in the exact same part of Leviticus (for example, body modification through ink) aren't binding on us after whatever it is God Zombie accomplished when he got nailed to a stick.
 
2014-01-12 12:09:05 AM

s2s2s2: Penalty for adultery was death.


Notably, both partners to the crime we're being stoned by an angry mob, only one of them was, which both explicitly and probably de facto wasn't the case for two men who got caught getting it on.
 
2014-01-12 12:20:14 AM

Churchill2004: s2s2s2: Penalty for adultery was death.

Notably, both partners to the crime we're being stoned by an angry mob, only one of them was, which both explicitly and probably de facto wasn't the case for two men who got caught getting it on.


I think autocorrect ate your post.
 
2014-01-12 12:25:31 AM

Xanadone: Farking sheep-stealers (as I was taught to call United Methodists -- well, not the farking part.)  I prefer a more democratic (and less homophobic) church, like the United Church of Christ, even though UCC congregations sometimes get away with treating ministers like absolute crap.


I am UCC, and we have always paid and treated our Senior Ministers well.  I know of some issues at other churches in town, though, but I don't think it is a UCC thing.  We had an openly Gay junior minister about 5 years ago, and an openly gay choir director 40 years ago.
 
2014-01-12 01:01:59 AM

s2s2s2: Churchill2004: s2s2s2: Penalty for adultery was death.

Notably, both partners to the crime we're being stoned by an angry mob, only one of them was, which both explicitly and probably de facto wasn't the case for two men who got caught getting it on.

I think autocorrect ate your post.


Yes, that shouldn't be "weren't"
 
2014-01-12 01:13:36 AM

Churchill2004: s2s2s2: Churchill2004: s2s2s2: Penalty for adultery was death.

Notably, both partners to the crime we're being stoned by an angry mob, only one of them was, which both explicitly and probably de facto wasn't the case for two men who got caught getting it on.

I think autocorrect ate your post.

Yes, that shouldn't be "weren't"


Should be?
 
2014-01-12 01:26:47 AM

wellreadneck: OooShiny: phalamir: And others, like Piney-Woods Bible-Believing Snake-Handling Pentecostal New Holocaust Church of the Savior...

Hey have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior?  Hey why don't you come to a fellowship and funding service at my Holy Primitive Baptist Bible Assembly Church of Godly Praise in Jesus' Name for Rebuking Condoms?

Hey where you going!!?  Hey I have pamphlets!!!1!


You don't know any Hardshells, do you?



Used to date a guy named Calvin who was kinda primitive, but we just knew we were elected to be predestined together for eternity after we were saved by Grace, my neighbor lady who drove us to the wedding.  However, when he forbid me from saying 'I do' out loud in church, I punched him in the beard and left.
 
2014-01-12 01:36:17 AM

Felgraf: There's a lot of places you haven't checked, then. There's a number of churches called "Congregationalsit Churches", I.e. the church elects/decides on the pastor. (For instance, the  very liberal United Church of Christ is one such church. )


Most Baptist churches are this way too.

I don't know if it's always a good thing. For the few churches that accept gay people there are plenty of others who will happily vote people out for "smaller" offenses.
 
2014-01-12 01:40:44 AM

Churchill2004: CSB about churches selecting a pastor. 

When I was 15 or so, the pastor at our family's (Assembly of God) church was "called by God" or some such bullshiat to take a gig at a bigger, better, A/G church in Dallas or something like that. The upshot being the deacons reviewed candidates, and brought forward a nice-enough guy, more practical and somewhat less charismatic (this in a church that practices faith healing and speaking in tongues) who had a decade or so under his belt at a slightly smaller A/G church in Tyler, Texas. 

So aside from the usual questions and formalities and meet-and-greet, came a somewhat unusual admission. The reason he was leaving his church in Tyler was because his sister-in-law had literally stoned her young infants to death on her front yard one evening, after being told to do so by God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. At the trial, the pastor and his preaching were harshly scrutinized for whatever role they might have played. We even got to see him testify in a Court TV re-run. 

After all this was made known, as well as the more expected stuff about his style and theology and priorities, the congregation (all members over 16) were asked to vote via secret ballot whether or not to accept him as pastor. While the conclusion was foregone, but the vote turned out to be *unanimous* (out of ~500 votes cast perhaps) in favor of accepting him as the new head pastor.


Tyler, TX.  A wretched hive of good ol' boys and crazy religious people. There's something in the water there.

/ lived there for 3 years
 
2014-01-12 02:16:45 AM

cfreak: Tyler, TX.  A wretched hive of good ol' boys and crazy religious people. There's something in the water there.

/ lived there for 3 years


Awesome zoo, though. We used to drive down from Texarkana once a year when we lived there. 

.

s2s2s2: Yes, that shouldn't be "weren't"

Should be?


It's my post and I'll be cromulent if I want to.
 
2014-01-12 02:24:51 AM

phalamir: And others, like Piney-Woods Bible-Believing Snake-Handling Pentecostal New Holocaust Church of the Savior, pretty much tell hierarchy to fark off [Note: I made the name of that last one up, but (1) it describes way too many churches in rural America, and (2) I wouldn't be surprised in the least if some church in Lesser Derpistan Alabama didn't have that exact damn name].


There was a woman here who died a few years back from going to one of those snake handling churches and getting bit in the face twice. Apparently the ER staff made fun of her while she was dying. shiatty but if you pick up a poisonous snake expecting nothing to go wrong well then perhaps it was Darwin and not a god watching you.
/Also any church around here that has an ambulance in their parking lot is usually one of those churches.
//Southeast Ky is weird.
 
2014-01-12 03:00:46 AM
cfreak: Tyler, TX. A wretched hive of good ol' boys and crazy religious people. There's something in the water there.

/ lived there for 3 years



Moved to Tyler with family in 1979, having never even heard of it prior.  It was fractionally smaller than the city we came from.  It was really really quiet.  But there was something palpable in the air, and it was Stepford-creepy.  Local grocery chain sackers were blindingly-shiny-white Christian boys with identical white shirts and black bow ties.  No blacks or girls allowed.  Biggest church in town, Green Acres Baptist, still owns more land than the city and is frothing Teapublican Goober Gohmert's home church.

There were, and still are, only two high schools with an invisible wall of separation more impassible than the physical wall in Berlin.  Robert E. Lee is the white school, the other school's for blacks, and ne'er the twain shall meet.

Back then, the local black radio station by law had to sign off at dusk.  'Married with Children' was banned in advance from Tyler airwaves so as not to offend.  It was illegal to buy pantyhose on Sunday.  Cop cars were color of fluorescent urine.  When I asked where's the beer, they said 30 miles south across the lake.  Just last year, Tyler voted to sell beer inside city limits, something my family believed would not happened in our lifetimes.

The one local newspaper was, and still is, heavily sanitized and censored so as not to distress.  It still runs a 'Daily Bible Verse' column front and center.

Republican sheriff was relected for a whopping 34 years until he finally retired.  The movie 'Rush' with Gregg Allman and Jason Patric was about Tyler's clusterfark of drug-bust corruption and death.  The surface of Tyler has modernized in the last five years, but beneath it is still rigidly virulently controlled by hard-right Republican Christians.

This is not a city of hope for youth, blacks, women, Hispanics, gays or atheists, so congrats to all who make it out.
 
2014-01-12 03:16:29 AM
Churchill2004: Awesome zoo, though. We used to drive down from Texarkana once a year when we lived there.

First time I went to Caldwell Zoo, was horrified to see their only lion in a steel-barred box just like a prison cell, and so small he could only take a few steps before having to turn around as he paced, paced, paced back and forth.  The other animal housing was not much better.

I did not return until over a decade had passed.  To their credit, the zoo has obviously become much larger and vastly more civilized since then, but that old image of the jailed pacing lion reflected a lot about 1980s Tyler.
 
2014-01-12 03:38:13 AM
All this talk of gay choir directors and east Texas has me thinking about Bernie now (the Richard Linklater film w/Jack Black).
 
2014-01-12 03:58:16 AM

just_intonation: FTA: "It's almost like he's hijacked the church," David Steele said. "He is completely going against what the church body wants."

The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.  And that generally applies to all religions -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever.


Who is the church if not the people in it?  The last time I checked, Protestants don't have a pope.
 
2014-01-12 04:03:49 AM

ZeroCorpse: I still don't understand why any gay person would WANT to be a member of a religion that has persecuted, murdered, and attacked gay people throughout history. It seems masochistic, to say the least.

But then, I don't understand how Black people can be Christian either, when it was Christianity that endorsed slavery and allowed slave owners to justify their actions, and the slaves were FORCED to switch to Christian worship because of their owners.


Yeah.  I don't get why there are Black Americans, either.
 
2014-01-12 08:03:17 AM

LoneVVolf: So only the straight clergy can f*ck altar boys? How's that work...


Only pedophiles can fark alter boys.
No room for just gay guys.
 
2014-01-12 08:13:51 AM

ZeroCorpse: I still don't understand why any gay person would WANT to be a member of a religion that has persecuted, murdered, and attacked gay people throughout history. It seems masochistic, to say the least.

But then, I don't understand how Black people can be Christian either, when it was Christianity that endorsed slavery and allowed slave owners to justify their actions, and the slaves were FORCED to switch to Christian worship because of their owners.

It just seems ridiculous to me that people who were historically and traditionally hurt by Christians would decide to join them.


Yup.  Friend of mine from High School (20+ years after HS) visited with me and told me he was in the midst of hormone treatments and was gong to transgender.  He was sad, because he is a devout Christian, born again and all that, and he knew his church would not accept him after the surgery.  It was a huge deal for him.. almost as huge as the transgendering itself.
Why would you want to join a club that would never accept you as a member?
 
2014-01-12 10:18:09 AM
The gay man in the "leadership position" would be the "pitcher," right? He's the one who should do the firing. What am I reading here?
 
2014-01-12 01:07:33 PM

santadog: Why would you want to join a club that would never accept you as a member?


Or, in this case, given the criteria, why would you want to join one that would?
 
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