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(The Herald Bulletin)   SSDD: Church minister in small, conservative Indiana town fires gay man that was in leadership position. TheTimesTheyAreAChangin: 80% of their congregation QUITS because of it   (heraldbulletin.com) divider line 126
    More: Interesting, SSDD, interpretation of the Bible, United Methodist Church  
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11390 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Jan 2014 at 4:39 PM (32 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-11 04:41:31 PM
Until you find out that they quit because the church had been forever tainted.
 
2014-01-11 04:41:50 PM
Good for them. Hopefully they can get rid of the minister and have their church back.
 
2014-01-11 04:41:50 PM
This is one of those weird things that will only happen in a place like the Methodist Church. Most places have a democratic process (or at least a board of elders) who have the authority to kick out a new pastor who doesn't jive with the congregation's beliefs.
 
2014-01-11 04:43:26 PM
Good
 
2014-01-11 04:43:59 PM
good for them.
 
2014-01-11 04:46:49 PM
What did they expect?  You pretty much have to assume that any guy who would take on the title of choral director is a flamer.
 
2014-01-11 04:47:39 PM

Fubini: This is one of those weird things that will only happen in a place like the Methodist Church. Most places have a democratic process (or at least a board of elders) who have the authority to kick out a new pastor who doesn't jive with the congregation's beliefs.


I was wondering about that. Way back when I still attended church (I got better) the pastor served at the pleasure of the congregation and could be put out on their ass for fracturing the church like that. Though, I grew up Lutheran and not Methodist, so maybe they have a different system going--maybe more like the Catholics, who have a priest assigned by the diocese or something.
 
2014-01-11 04:50:11 PM
FTA: "It's almost like he's hijacked the church," David Steele said. "He is completely going against what the church body wants."

The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.  And that generally applies to all religions -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever.

Now, having said that, I do applaud them for standing up for what they believe is right.
 
2014-01-11 04:50:11 PM
So only the straight clergy can f*ck altar boys? How's that work...
 
2014-01-11 04:53:13 PM

just_intonation: FTA: "It's almost like he's hijacked the church," David Steele said. "He is completely going against what the church body wants."

The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.  And that generally applies to all religions -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever.

Now, having said that, I do applaud them for standing up for what they believe is right.


There's a lot of places you haven't checked, then. There's a number of churches called "Congregationalsit Churches", I.e. the church elects/decides on the pastor. (For instance, the  very liberal United Church of Christ is one such church. )
 
2014-01-11 04:53:57 PM

just_intonation: The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.


You have no idea how protestant churches work, do you?
 
2014-01-11 04:53:59 PM
FTA: "Then, earlier this year, a new minister came in who said he was uncomfortable with Fraley leading the music."

Hm. Something about protesting and how the minister doeth it too much...
 
2014-01-11 04:54:02 PM

just_intonation: FTA: "It's almost like he's hijacked the church," David Steele said. "He is completely going against what the church body wants."

The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.  And that generally applies to all religions -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever.

Now, having said that, I do applaud them for standing up for what they believe is right.


Nope, for some Christians the congregation is the "Church".
 
2014-01-11 04:54:09 PM

just_intonation: The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.  And that generally applies to all religions -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever.


I believe that even within the Methodist church staffing positions and the like are hired by the congregation or the board of elders. It sounds like they would be entirely within their rights to keep this guy on as the music director.

It sounds like the pastor was a jerk, though.
 
2014-01-11 04:54:18 PM
Farking sheep-stealers (as I was taught to call United Methodists -- well, not the farking part.)  I prefer a more democratic (and less homophobic) church, like the United Church of Christ, even though UCC congregations sometimes get away with treating ministers like absolute crap.
 
2014-01-11 04:55:15 PM

Ima4nic8or: What did they expect?  You pretty much have to assume that any guy who would take on the title of choral director is a flamer.


Hey now!  My rookie from college was a choral director!  He was not a flamer!

/he was arrested for banging a teen
//and seemed to be regressive-trait ephebophile
///and appeared to be gay-in-denial you know what nevermind.
 
2014-01-11 04:55:20 PM

Ima4nic8or: What did they expect?  You pretty much have to assume that any guy who would take on the title of choral director is a flamer.


This. Of the ten or so churches I've attended in my life, six had paid music directors. Of the four who were men, three were pretty obviously gay, and the other was also the choir director at a small Christian college nearby.

/he could have been gay too for all I know, but he was married to a woman
 
2014-01-11 04:55:34 PM

Xanadone: Farking sheep-stealers (as I was taught to call United Methodists -- well, not the farking part.)  I prefer a more democratic (and less homophobic) church, like the United Church of Christ, even though UCC congregations sometimes get away with treating ministers like absolute crap.


UCC churchs are largely open to believe what they want. They can be homophobic if they want. (Though it would be a little incongruous to do so.)
 
2014-01-11 04:56:49 PM

just_intonation: The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.


Church self-governance at a local, decentralized, congregational level is in fact a very big thing with most mainline Protestant denominations- it goes back to the very root of Protestantism. In most American churches the pastor is subject to a confirmation vote by the members.
 
2014-01-11 05:00:06 PM

Xanadone: Farking sheep-stealers (as I was taught to call United Methodists -- well, not the farking part.)  I prefer a more democratic (and less homophobic) church, like the United Church of Christ, even though UCC congregations sometimes get away with treating ministers like absolute crap.


Yay, someone else who is aware that the UCC *exists*. (I grew up in a UCC church, and even if my spiritual views have drifted... I'm still very proud of them. The pastor recently got arrested in NC, for protesting the batshiat insanity that the legislature there has become...)

Fubini: UCC churchs are largely open to believe what they want. They can be homophobic if they want. (Though it would be a little incongruous to do so.)


While that was true for a while (Due to the congregationalist nature), most of the homophobes left after he 2005 synod, where the UCC *as a whole* voted to be Open and Affirming, and support gay marriage.

It didn't really make the news, though. I couldn't even get it posted on fark.
 
GBB
2014-01-11 05:01:32 PM
The Protestants protested?

At least they know their origins.
 
2014-01-11 05:02:45 PM

Felgraf: Xanadone: Farking sheep-stealers (as I was taught to call United Methodists -- well, not the farking part.)  I prefer a more democratic (and less homophobic) church, like the United Church of Christ, even though UCC congregations sometimes get away with treating ministers like absolute crap.

Yay, someone else who is aware that the UCC *exists*. (I grew up in a UCC church, and even if my spiritual views have drifted... I'm still very proud of them. The pastor recently got arrested in NC, for protesting the batshiat insanity that the legislature there has become...)

Fubini: UCC churchs are largely open to believe what they want. They can be homophobic if they want. (Though it would be a little incongruous to do so.)

While that was true for a while (Due to the congregationalist nature), most of the homophobes left after he 2005 synod, where the UCC *as a whole* voted to be Open and Affirming, and support gay marriage.

It didn't really make the news, though. I couldn't even get it posted on fark.


I grew up UCC also. I haven't been to one in years (most recently attended Unity, which makes UCC look downright fundie) but I also am very happy to hear this.
 
2014-01-11 05:04:02 PM

GBB: The Protestants protested?

At least they know their origins.


Had they nailed their written protest  to the church door, that would have been good.
 
2014-01-11 05:05:42 PM
CSB about churches selecting a pastor. 

When I was 15 or so, the pastor at our family's (Assembly of God) church was "called by God" or some such bullshiat to take a gig at a bigger, better, A/G church in Dallas or something like that. The upshot being the deacons reviewed candidates, and brought forward a nice-enough guy, more practical and somewhat less charismatic (this in a church that practices faith healing and speaking in tongues) who had a decade or so under his belt at a slightly smaller A/G church in Tyler, Texas. 

So aside from the usual questions and formalities and meet-and-greet, came a somewhat unusual admission. The reason he was leaving his church in Tyler was because his sister-in-law had literally stoned her young infants to death on her front yard one evening, after being told to do so by God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. At the trial, the pastor and his preaching were harshly scrutinized for whatever role they might have played. We even got to see him testify in a Court TV re-run. 

After all this was made known, as well as the more expected stuff about his style and theology and priorities, the congregation (all members over 16) were asked to vote via secret ballot whether or not to accept him as pastor. While the conclusion was foregone, but the vote turned out to be *unanimous* (out of ~500 votes cast perhaps) in favor of accepting him as the new head pastor.
 
2014-01-11 05:07:06 PM
He said along his own journey, he has come to form his own theory about Christianity and homosexuality. He said the law forbidding a man to lay with another man in Leviticus is one of the few Christians still observe.

"I don't like how people pick and choose which verses they want to apply," said Fraley, who considers himself a Christian. "The Bible also says gluttony and divorce are bad but people seem to ignore those."


Amen brother, amen.
 
2014-01-11 05:11:09 PM

Churchill2004: The reason he was leaving his church in Tyler was because his sister-in-law had literally stoned her young infants to death on her front yard one evening, after being told to do so by God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.


What a nut!  The Bible clearly states you're supposed to take your children outside the city gates before you stone them to death.  Maybe Tyler, TX doesn't have city gates?
 
2014-01-11 05:12:02 PM

hardinparamedic: just_intonation: The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.

You have no idea how protestant churches work, do you?


I know I don't. Anybody know a good reference on how many flavors Protestants come in and what they believe in?
 
2014-01-11 05:12:16 PM

namegoeshere: I grew up UCC also. I haven't been to one in years (most recently attended Unity, which makes UCC look downright fundie) but I also am very happy to hear this.


It's possible I may have the wording down slightly wrong, but yeah. I definately remember that being a thing.

*digs up*

Ah, found it!

http://www.ucc.org/news/general-synod-calls-for-full-marriage-equali ty .htm
 
2014-01-11 05:12:57 PM
By the numbers The United Methodist Church saw a drop of 71,000 members in 2011, the last year numbers were available. While the church is declining in the U.S., membership is increasing throughout the world.

This is going to become a big deal for the UMC in the coming years.  For a while, UMC was a fairly liberal, tolerant church.  But their drive to increase membership in other, more conservative countries, is going to start having an effect when those conservative members start demanding more influence.
 
2014-01-11 05:15:44 PM

simplicimus: I know I don't. Anybody know a good reference on how many flavors Protestants come in and what they believe in?


Enjoy!

To explain my comment, most protestant churches are governed at the local level, even if their doctrines are set by the unified denominational body. This is especially true for non-denominational protestant churches.

A local church can have just as much politics going on behind the scenes as an election would, and pastors can be easily ousted by the Church Elders or Church Council.
 
2014-01-11 05:16:06 PM
According to United Methodist Church law, gay people are welcome to attend services but the line is drawn at positions of leadership.

The law states, "self-avowed, practicing homosexuals are not to be certified as candidates, ordained as ministers, or appointed to serve in The United Methodist Church."


/Ah you wacky Methodists and your preaching of Jesus, and how he loves all of us, unless you are gay. Then you get the boot. Funny, isn't it, how most organized religions claim to follow the loving preachings of this or that deity, but when it comes down the the brass tacks, it is really just a club of people who want to feel superior to others. A club. Funny how those preach love and tolerance, but have the balls to selectively edit what they practice.
 
2014-01-11 05:17:00 PM
"Spiffy" tag fired for being too gay.
 
2014-01-11 05:19:32 PM

Fubini: pastor who doesn't jive with


Jibe. The word is "jibe."
 
2014-01-11 05:23:52 PM
Felgraf: The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.  And that generally applies to all religions -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever.

My wife is Jewish.  Their congregation selects their own rabbi and hires him/her.  If the rabbi were to fracture the congregation like that, he'd be gone.
 
2014-01-11 05:23:55 PM
I still don't understand why any gay person would WANT to be a member of a religion that has persecuted, murdered, and attacked gay people throughout history. It seems masochistic, to say the least.

But then, I don't understand how Black people can be Christian either, when it was Christianity that endorsed slavery and allowed slave owners to justify their actions, and the slaves were FORCED to switch to Christian worship because of their owners.

It just seems ridiculous to me that people who were historically and traditionally hurt by Christians would decide to join them.
 
2014-01-11 05:24:21 PM

a particular individual: Fubini: pastor who doesn't jive with

Jibe. The word is "jibe."


static.fjcdn.com

Sheeeeit.
 
2014-01-11 05:26:59 PM
Yay, gay buttseks for everyone!
 
2014-01-11 05:27:07 PM

Ima4nic8or: What did they expect?  You pretty much have to assume that any guy who would take on the title of choral director is a flamer.


What is wrong with you? Not your obvious flaws as a human being, but your need to broadcast them?
 
2014-01-11 05:31:12 PM

Churchill2004: just_intonation: The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.

Church self-governance at a local, decentralized, congregational level is in fact a very big thing with most mainline Protestant denominations- it goes back to the very root of Protestantism. In most American churches the pastor is subject to a confirmation vote by the members.


well when the offering plate comes back empty something is going to change
 
2014-01-11 05:33:02 PM

KenShabby: a particular individual: Fubini: pastor who doesn't jive with

Jibe. The word is "jibe."

[static.fjcdn.com image 697x655]

Sheeeeit.


Excuse me, Stewardess, I speak Jive.

reggiestake.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-01-11 05:33:09 PM

just_intonation: FTA: "It's almost like he's hijacked the church," David Steele said. "He is completely going against what the church body wants."

The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.  And that generally applies to all religions -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever.

Now, having said that, I do applaud them for standing up for what they believe is right.


Heh.  Watch what happens when a Lutheran minister crosses the President of the church council.  I've watched my grandmother fire one minister, and my mother negotiate with the local bishop to "swap" the current pastor for someone else.  It was very clear who was in charge in those discussions, and it wasn't the person who was ordained.  If the pastor isn't in step with the council, he's getting replaced pretty quick.

Pastors get to cross council only when it comes to theological doctrine.  On everything else they are the worker, not the executive.
 
2014-01-11 05:35:38 PM
Um, the guy wasn't fired, he quit because he felt that the new priest in charge didn't like him, and because he was being made to do actual work associated with the position where apparently he wasn't before.

Again, the new priest didn't do anything specific to even cause him to quit, he just  didn't like him in a demonstrative enough fashion.

This isn't a gay rights thing, it's the usual junior-high-school drama bullshiat you get at small nonprofit anything... and in all frankness the gay guy isn't exactly the sympathetic one in the conflict, he's essentially just being a drama queen because he feels slighted that every social sub-group in the church isn't sucking his cock hard enough.

// Being gay and having a conflict of personality with a religious person doesn't mean you're automatically in the right, sometimes it's still you that's being the entitled little shiat.  Good job killing the sky-fairy club or whatever, Mr. Mean Girl.
 
2014-01-11 05:39:59 PM

hardinparamedic: simplicimus: I know I don't. Anybody know a good reference on how many flavors Protestants come in and what they believe in?

Enjoy!

To explain my comment, most protestant churches are governed at the local level, even if their doctrines are set by the unified denominational body. This is especially true for non-denominational protestant churches.

A local church can have just as much politics going on behind the scenes as an election would, and pastors can be easily ousted by the Church Elders or Church Council.


Thanks! Bookmarked.
 
2014-01-11 05:42:57 PM

Jim_Callahan: Um, the guy wasn't fired, he quit because he felt that the new priest in charge didn't like him, and because he was being made to do actual work associated with the position where apparently he wasn't before.

Again, the new priest didn't do anything specific to even cause him to quit, he just  didn't like him in a demonstrative enough fashion.

This isn't a gay rights thing, it's the usual junior-high-school drama bullshiat you get at small nonprofit anything... and in all frankness the gay guy isn't exactly the sympathetic one in the conflict, he's essentially just being a drama queen because he feels slighted that every social sub-group in the church isn't sucking his cock hard enough.

// Being gay and having a conflict of personality with a religious person doesn't mean you're automatically in the right, sometimes it's still you that's being the entitled little shiat.  Good job killing the sky-fairy club or whatever, Mr. Mean Girl.


Really? RTFA:

"After six months on the job, the church got a new interim minister, David Mantor, in September. Steele, who served as the intermediary between the congregation and the minister, said the church body hoped the new minister would allow Fraley to come back as choir director.
After originally saying he was fine with Fraley coming back, the Steeles said Mantor changed his mind three weeks after he was hired.
The next day Mantor asked for David Steele's keys, saying he could no longer serve, but David refused to quit. Three weeks later, the district superintendent met with the church leaders and relieved David Steele of his duties.
Steele said the district superintendent told him he was no longer supporting the positions of the minister and therefore was neglecting his duty."
 
2014-01-11 05:42:59 PM
Easy solution: give up these old fairy tales and join the modern world.
 
2014-01-11 05:43:49 PM

Jim_Callahan: Um, the guy wasn't fired, he quit because he felt that the new priest in charge didn't like him, and because he was being made to do actual work associated with the position where apparently he wasn't before.

Again, the new priest didn't do anything specific to even cause him to quit, he just  didn't like him in a demonstrative enough fashion.

This isn't a gay rights thing, it's the usual junior-high-school drama bullshiat you get at small nonprofit anything... and in all frankness the gay guy isn't exactly the sympathetic one in the conflict


about gotdamned time someone spotted that
 
2014-01-11 05:53:27 PM
  Religion is a hell of a drug!


/A stupid, ignorant, shameless drug, that makes people feel justified for being idiots
 
2014-01-11 05:56:42 PM

Ima4nic8or: What did they expect?  You pretty much have to assume that any guy who would take on the title of choral director is a flamer.


Hey now--I have been in choirs with a few directors who were straight. And there was the bisexual female director in high school...

/I miss Ms Jones
//Coolest director ever
 
2014-01-11 05:58:49 PM

Boojum2k: Good for them. Hopefully they can get rid of the minister and have their church back.


THIS. Why fix what is not broken?
 
2014-01-11 06:00:07 PM

just_intonation: The last time I checked, the Church got to tell you what to do, not the other way around.

Sir needs to learn what presbyterian means.
 
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