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(Chicago Trib)   Both a park district and public library rejected a $3,000 cash donation by a man because of his staunch atheism, but a food pantry gladly accepted the money, because they're not assholes   (chicagotribune.com) divider line 183
    More: Followup, food pantry, Chicago Bears, Hemant Mehta, donations  
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6927 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Jan 2014 at 12:13 AM (42 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-10 03:28:49 PM  

RobSeace: grumpfuff: You bore me. You're boring. I'm bored.

IDW used to be much more fun back when he used to argue his true beliefs, but now he generally just does this fake atheist act instead... It's sad really...


we were just killing time until you summoned the courage and/or ability to convince us to be an atheist

whenever you're ready lad, please proceed...

we will wait patiently here

or if you prefer we can wait to see if grump is capable of progress...?

//also bored
 
2014-01-10 03:39:48 PM  

I drunk what: RobSeace: grumpfuff: You bore me. You're boring. I'm bored.

IDW used to be much more fun back when he used to argue his true beliefs, but now he generally just does this fake atheist act instead... It's sad really...

we were just killing time until you summoned the courage and/or ability to convince us to be an atheist

whenever you're ready lad, please proceed...

we will wait patiently here

or if you prefer we can wait to see if grump is capable of progress...?

//also bored



grumpfuff: You bore me. You're boring. I'm bored.

 
2014-01-10 03:49:26 PM  

I drunk what: whenever you're ready lad, please proceed...


With what? I don't even know what there is to argue about with this story... Atheist wants to give money to a park to counter some group that pulled support; park refuses to take it for unclear reasons; he tries to give it to a library instead; they refuse to take it because they claim atheists are a "hate group" now apparently; so, he finally gives it to a food pantry instead, who seems happy to take it, but still seems wary about losing support from others as a backlash of some sort... The groups that refused to take the money were pretty stupid, IMHO, but whatever, they don't need to take money from anyone if they don't want to... In the end, I'd say the money ended up doing more good than it would at either of the places that refused it, anyway... So, happy ending! What is there to argue about?
 
2014-01-10 03:51:37 PM  

RobSeace: It's sad really


sad because it's True...?

I drunk what: or if you prefer we can wait to see if grump is capable of progress...?


grumpfuff: You bore me. You're boring. I'm bored.


perhaps another year, then eh?  I believe we have our answer, thanks

(meanwhile)

well Rob, do you feel like sharing your "Gnostic" beliefs with the rest of the class or not? or are we going to have to wait a year for that as well?

/tick
//tock
///tick tock
 
2014-01-10 03:57:09 PM  

I drunk what: I drunk what: or if you prefer we can wait to see if grump is capable of progress...?

grumpfuff: You bore me. You're boring. I'm bored.

perhaps another year, then eh?  I believe we have our answer, thanks



grumpfuff: You bore me. You're boring. I'm bored.

 
2014-01-10 03:58:14 PM  

RobSeace: I don't even know what there is to argue about with this story


oh Rob, it's never about TFA, you should know that by now, are you new to fark?

RobSeace: The groups that refused to take the money were pretty stupid, IMHO


you could easily convince me about that

however

RobSeace: What is there to argue about?


did you read the thread? i'm sure there is something in there you might take exception with...? or if you are having trouble with those cryptic enigmas, i suppose we can simply continue our last conversation (which you seem to be already 'forgetting'..) i believe you were about to convince me to be an atheist since it seems all of my previous attempts to convince you otherwise had failed

we are ready when you are
 
2014-01-10 04:01:58 PM  

I drunk what: RobSeace: It's sad really

sad because it's True...?


It's sad, because you've been reduced to just posting nonsense as a parody of what you imagine atheists to be rather than just posting as yourself... I used to enjoy arguments with the real you... This fake atheist persona you've created is just an unfunny moron...

well Rob, do you feel like sharing your "Gnostic" beliefs with the rest of the class or not? or are we going to have to wait a year for that as well?

Um, what? I'm certainly not gnostic in any way, at least regarding the question of a deity... I've told you before, I'm an agnostic atheist... Personally, I think everyone is agnostic, because the only way you can really know for sure is to be dead... So, the only question that really matters is that of belief: theist or atheist... I don't believe, and in fact actively disbelieve...
 
2014-01-10 04:21:02 PM  

I drunk what: did you read the thread? i'm sure there is something in there you might take exception with...?


Meh... There's lots of crap posted in the thread... I already responded to one person previously, but nothing else grabbed me enough to bother replying to...

or if you are having trouble with those cryptic enigmas, i suppose we can simply continue our last conversation (which you seem to be already 'forgetting'..) i believe you were about to convince me to be an atheist since it seems all of my previous attempts to convince you otherwise had failed

I don't think you recall correctly... You told me to convince you to be an atheist, and I told you that I had no desire to do such a thing... The whole thread closed soon after, but there was nothing outstanding in our argument on my end; the final two posts in the thread are mine...
 
2014-01-10 04:22:02 PM  

RobSeace: I'm certainly not gnostic in any way, at least regarding the question of a deity


you've told me before that you are over 99% certain about this belief which typically doesn't come from someone claiming to be "agnostic", we've already covered whether or not you like bacon ad nauseum, let's move on shall we?

RobSeace: It's sad, because you've been reduced to just posting nonsense as a parody of what you imagine atheists to be rather than just posting as yourself... I used to enjoy arguments with the real you... This fake atheist persona you've created is just an unfunny moron...


but Dizz is so popular here, what's your problem?

RobSeace: I think everyone is agnostic


i like bacon

RobSeace: because the only way you can really know for 100% sure is to be dead


ftfy, however those that  dare to claim over 51% are gnostics in my book, and my book is the only one that matters, let it go lad
 
2014-01-10 04:31:58 PM  

RobSeace: the final two posts in the thread are mine.


fine, it's my turn then?

(borrowed-continued from previous thread)

I've missed your comment barrage... ;-)

I drunk what: you seem to be presuming that God has physical properties... you've already failed before you begun

Well, if he doesn't, he may as well not exist, since there's not realy any difference from our point of view... If he exists in some other plane of existence or something, which doesn't interact with ours in a detectable way, then for all intents and purposes he doesn't really exist for us... Unless you know of a way to cross into that other realm to see him? (No, I'm not going to try killing myself to see if that works, either!)

I drunk what: RobSeace: IDW: is Jesus a myth?

Jesus? Probably not...

at least there is hope for you, what do you suppose, Lachwen: Well then, present the evidence.,
would say if we asked him...?

Well, she was talking about evidence of a god, not evidence that some guy named Jesus (or Joshua or Yeshua or whatever) existed... There's a lot more of the latter than the former...

I drunk what: you have evidence, you simply choose to not believe it
evidence is all around us, some just are not inclined to perceive-believe it...
and on that note, as a friendly reminder, Faith = evidence of things unseen, not that strawman you were flaming at

Faith is evidence? I don't recall ever hearing it defined that way before... I always thought it was merely a belief in things (as yet) unseen, with or without evidence in support of them... If merely having the belief counts as evidence to you, that seems rather circular logic... Do all those people who firmly believe they've been abducted by aliens have evidence of it by their faith?

I drunk what: btw do you ever use Faith in your beloved Science...? just curious

Every human being operates on faith on some level... I have faith that the sun will come up tomorrow... I have faith that when I drop something it will fall to the floor rather than float away... I have faith that when I turn on the water faucet, water will flow out... Etc... But, the reason we all have faith in such things is because of past observation... The sun has so far come up every morning, so we kind of expect it to keep doing so... Every time we've dropped something, it's fallen downward due to the planet's gravity... Whenever we've turned on the faucet, water has come out; except maybe on a few rare occassions when the plumbing was screwed up, so it's possible it might be screwed up again today when we turn it on, but it's unlikely... So, there are varying levels of faith, based on past observed behavior... But, it's always based on some sort of actual evidence...
If I had never seen a faucet before and encountered one, I'd have no idea what to expect when I turned it on... If someone I trusted told me to expect water to come out because they had personally seen it come out many times before, I might have a bit of faith that that's what would happen... But, if I read an old book written by unknown authors that described faucets and claimed water would come out when turned, I'd be very skeptical, but since it doesn't sound completely against the laws of physics, I might have a sliver of faith in what it says... But, if instead that old book said that unicorns, fairies, genies, and leprechauns would start pouring out of it, I'd have zero faith in it, because it sounds ridiculous and impossible...

I drunk what: She isn't capable of doing anything?
what sort of "nature" have you been observing???

One that isn't a living being capable of actively doing things... When a tornado hits a town, I don't think "That cruel biatch Nature sending a tornado to hit that town and kill all those people!"... No one sent the tornado; it just formed due to the chaotic nature of weather and climate and a host of other unpredictable events and things... It wasn't an action taken by any being, but just a thing that happened, because "shiat happens!"...

I drunk what: convince me to be an atheist

I don't really have any desire to do so... If the idea of a deity seems rational and sane to you, then well you're not likely to be convinced otherwise... To me it sounds utterly irrational and without any kind of justification, so until I see some sort of evidence or at least hear a theory that would make the idea seem even somewhat plausible, I'm certainly not going to believe in one...

I drunk what: is more like the game of Clue and much less like a bill nye experiment where we put god in a test tube and measure his electrons

Interesting analogy... I like it! But, what clues are you picking up that lead you to jump to "God exists!"? Because I must've totally missed those clues...

RobSeace  [TotalFark]
2013-12-14 09:57:49 AM
I drunk what: As for what evidence there is for deism or theism, I'd say that it is much more reasonable to believe in an intelligent creator as the cause of this universe and most certainly for the creation of life we have observed in it thus far.

I'm not sure why that prospect sounds so much more reasonable to you than the prospect that it just randomly happened through the actions of no one... That's presumably the central disconnect between the religious and the irreligious: to you, the idea of things randomly happening through chance (or really chaotic forces beyond our ability to fully explain) sounds absurd, so there must be some intelligent being behind them; while, to us things happening randomly seems perfectly reasonable and expected, while the idea of an intelligent being being responsible for them seems absurd and unnecessary... Our minds must just be wired differently or something...

But, if this intelligent being created the universe, what created the being? Has he always existed? If so, why can't the universe have always existed (through a series of repeating big bangs and crunches)? Or, why couldn't there have always existed higher dimensional branes floating around which occassionally collide with one another, sometimes producing what we observe as the Big Bang and resulting in the formation of a 4D universe like ours? Why is there such a great need for an intelligent being to be behind it all?

---

it will take me a while to catch up and respond barrage style, check back later
 
2014-01-10 05:00:05 PM  

I drunk what: ftfy, however those that dare to claim over 51% are gnostics in my book, and my book is the only one that matters, let it go lad


Well, that's kind of a silly definition, I think... You're mistaking belief for knowledge... No matter how strongly one might believe something doesn't mean that one knows that thing... Yes, to me, 100% certainty is required for knowledge of something; anything less is just a guess of some kind, even if it might be a good guess based on evidence and logical reasoning... (And, yeah, that pretty much means we don't know a hell of a lot for certain, really... We all mostly operate on a series of best guesses all the time...)

But, whatever... Let's not go down the pointless path of a semantics argument... Especially since I don't see why it even matters one way or the other if you want to call me gnostic or agnostic...

/As for continuing the old thread, I don't know how more I'll be able to get in on it...
//I'll be off for the night in about an hour, and they'll probably close the thread tomorrow...
 
2014-01-10 05:40:59 PM  
I drunk RobSeace  : Well, if he doesn't, he may as well not exist

what physical properties does Science have? does it exist?

I drunk RobSeace  : If he exists in some other plane of existence or something, which doesn't interact with ours in a detectable way

have ye not heard of IDW's matrix theory which clearly explains all those details? and no i'm sorry those times (of detectable means) have passed, sorry to break the bad news to you, though you no longer have any detectable ways of knowing if Julius Casear existed either, so then would it be safe to assume that you don't believe he ever existed either, just because you cannot detect him now?  If only there were some means we could use to know what happened before today... hmmm

I drunk RobSeace  : There's a lot more of the latter than the former

like how much more? or less?

I drunk RobSeace  : Faith is evidence?

indeed it is.  hence the definition.

I drunk RobSeace  : I don't recall ever hearing it defined that way before.

Hi, i don't believe we've me, I'm IDW, tis a pleasure to meet you.

//you prolly don't recall being a gnostic either
///or that we've already covered all this stuff before... :(

I drunk RobSeace  : I always thought it was merely a belief in things (as yet) unseen, with or without evidence in support of them.

with? yes, without? Nooo.  that would be the "blind" faith strawman that the butthurt IB lurves to rail against.  please don't be a noob.

I drunk RobSeace  : If merely having the belief counts as evidence to you

careful lad, you're approaching abbey-like levels of pedantics there, and you remember how much fun those exchanges were...? :\

the fact that a blind person can describe the color yellow to me does seem to indicate they have had some sort of encounter (directly or indirectly) with colors at some point.... yes, and we'll leave it at that.

I drunk RobSeace  : that seems rather circular logic

if you're doing it wrong, i can see why that would be the case

I drunk RobSeace  : Do all those people who firmly believe they've been abducted by aliens have evidence of it by their faith?

they have sufficient evidence to convince me that physical beings exist somewhere in the universe, and we can at least start from there...  and since we're being pedants, if they claim to have actually have seen personally with their own eyes, "alien beings" that would not be faith, but actual OBSERVED evidence, not the UNOBSERVED kind which would fall under the Faith category.

/see you forget things so quickly...  :(
 
2014-01-10 05:47:02 PM  

HindiDiscoMonster: Christians have attributes that must be met in order to be Christian, just as Scientists have certain attributes in order to be true Scientists, same with Attorneys, Judges, Journalists, etc... just because someone calls themselves a one eyed one horned flying purple people eater does not make that statement true.


i'm a chinese jet pilot

prove me wrong

though we'd like to hear more about that "christian attributes" stuff...

what is a "christian"?  and feel free to include as many attributes you deem necessary
 
2014-01-10 06:14:54 PM  

HindiDiscoMonster: I am very sorry about your brain Aneurysm or whatever happened to you... but if this is all you have left, I am afraid I will have to say adios.


His prior ravings were just him playing anti-IDW, the pretend atheist...

I'm pretty sure I've heard the real IDW agree completely with you on the definition of Christian before... And, he also agreed that most of the folks who call themselves Christians these days don't really qualify...
 
2014-01-10 06:15:40 PM  

HindiDiscoMonster: You used to be a good debater


there's a debate???  i've spent the last ~10 years simply trying to get morans to understand the meanings of words, I haven't seen a good debate for eons..  you do realize that you are posting on Fark.com, correct?

/now who is having the aneurysm...?

HindiDiscoMonster: I couldn't care less if you are or are not.


this is the typical quality-response you will receive irregardless of whatever topic is being "debated" here, good luck with that, Dizz took over a loooooooong time ago, I'm only posting at the moment for Rob, because I recall him to be at least somewhat civil, even if he constantly forgets all the stuff we already covered

i don't recall who you are or whether or not you're worth the time, my Weeners to you was using the Dizz persona found in my profile, which is already way too deep for Fark, i'm sorry if you thought I was making some sort of comeback?  i'm not interested

i wish the best of luck to you

FWIW, i like your answer about what a Christian is...  if you wish to discuss philosophy sometime i may check in time from time
 
2014-01-10 06:17:29 PM  

HindiDiscoMonster: see how simple that is?


indeed.
 
2014-01-10 06:42:01 PM  

I drunk what: what physical properties does Science have? does it exist?


The general concept or idea of science only exists in our minds, like all such concepts and ideas... The practice of science involves physical steps (perform experiments to prove or disprove a hypothesis)... If one wanted to test whether or not science existed in a given society, one could simply observe the people and see if they seemed to be carrying out scientific experiments and forming future beliefs based on the outcomes... Similarly, one could test for religion existing... But, how do you setup a test for whether or not a deity exists?

I drunk what: hough you no longer have any detectable ways of knowing if Julius Casear existed either, so then would it be safe to assume that you don't believe he ever existed either, just because you cannot detect him now?


No, because nothing about his supposed existence seems incredible or particularly fantastical... Some recorded details of his life might have been invented, but the fact that he existed seems entirely plausible... Similarly, I find it easy to accept that someone called Jesus of Nazareth (among other things) probably existed... I just have a hard time accepting the more fantastical of the reported details of his life (the supposed miracles he performed, and him being the son of a deity)...

You know the old saying, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"? Most people will give the benefit of the doubt to a report or claim of something having happened so long as it sounds somewhat reasonable and plausible... But, if you make the claim sound incredible, people are going to want to see more solid evidence before just accepting it as true...

I drunk what: the fact that a blind person can describe the color yellow to me does seem to indicate they have had some sort of encounter (directly or indirectly) with colors at some point....


I'm not sure how that relates to anything... However, another explanation is that the blind person just invented an explanation... Or, he copied someone else's explanation that he heard...

I drunk what: they have sufficient evidence to convince me that physical beings exist somewhere in the universe, and we can at least start from there...


Sure, I'd agree... But, it's got nothing to do with evidence from self-claimed abductees! I think the simple huge scale of the universe and law of averages is all the evidence needed to arrive at the conclusion that alien life is very, very likely somewhere... But, that same huge scale also leads to the probability that it's very, very unlikely any have ever traveled to Earth...

and since we're being pedants, if they claim to have actually have seen personally with their own eyes, "alien beings" that would not be faith, but actual OBSERVED evidence, not the UNOBSERVED kind which would fall under the Faith category.

They claim that, yes... Some may be lying... Some may be mentally ill and delusional... Some may have been under the influence of some drug at time and hallucinating... Some may have just had something go wrong temporarily in their brains, and had hallucinations without the need for any drugs...

Self-reported observation of something is surely strong evidence to the observer, but it's very weak evidence to most others who didn't observe it... We might take you at your word if what you reported is plausible, like I say, but if it's fantastical, we're going to assume you're probably just bullshiatting or crazy...
 
2014-01-10 06:43:22 PM  

RobSeace: His prior ravings were just him playing anti-IDW, the pretend atheist...


darn that poe's trooper law

/i wonder if grump is making any progress yet?

grumpfuff: You bore me. You're boring. I'm bored.


*sigh*

you see Rob, the way i see it, the only way to have an intelligent conversation is to debate myself... :\

and just for kicks and giggles

Lee451: Words have meanings and it is good to know what those meanings are.


What is Nature?

:)  for my fans
 
2014-01-10 06:43:53 PM  

I drunk what: even if he constantly forgets all the stuff we already covered


Man, give me a break; it's usually months between our talks! Plus, I'm an old fart these days... ;-)
 
2014-01-10 07:14:31 PM  
Christian: "I believe in Jesus and screw you if you don't!"
Islamist: "I believe in Allah and screw you if you don't!"
Atheist: "I don't believe in either one of those guys and screw you if you do!"

What do these three have in common?

They're all ATTENTION WHORES... nothing more.

You either do or don't believe in something?  Then how about STFU 'cause no one cares.

Piping up about it just means that you're a SELF-LABELING attention whore, which is far more pathetic than the self-professed fundies.
 
2014-01-10 07:39:40 PM  

RobSeace: The general concept or idea of science only exists in our minds, like all such concepts and ideas


so then concepts, ideas, etc.. (or "information" if you will) do not exist because they have no physical properties, it is only our "minds" that give them the illusion of existing?

/puffs pipe

fascinating.jpg

//blows bubbles

RobSeace: But, how do you setup a test for whether or not a deity exists?


how does Neo (in the Matrix) test for whether or not Morpheus in the real world exists?

hmmm, i suppose:  

RobSeace: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"


see, you're already answering your own questions, and saving me a bunch of typing...

/thanks

so then, what sort of extra ordinary evidence do you suppose would be required to prove that a deity exists...?

I'll give you a hint:

1.bp.blogspot.com

or I suppose someone could just simply be shown directly what the real world looks like...?  did you get a chance to read Revelation yet? assuming you don't want to take Jesus' Word for it, after He went through all the trouble to prove His claims... with 'Extraordinary evidence' just as you asked for...

there is just no pleasing some people
 
2014-01-10 07:47:22 PM  

RobSeace: because nothing about his supposed existence seems incredible or particularly fantastical


so then... the ONLY way you would believe that Jesus is The Son of God is IF his existence had nothing incredible or fantastical??  is this one of them catch 22 things?

if Jesus didn't perform miracles WHY would ANY one believe Him?!?  but IF He does then it probably didn't happen??!!??

>:(

RobSeace: Some recorded details of his life might have been invented


just the parts where he claimed deity, performed miracles, etc.. IOW the ENTIRE point of the Bible, but yeah other than those few minor "probably fabricated" details you are ok with the possibility that there might have been some dude named Jesus that lived in the middle east somewhere, who might have done some carpentry or something...

that's what I got from reading the Bible

one elaborate hoax    O.O

we will wait here to see if you're being serious...
 
2014-01-10 08:19:02 PM  

HindiDiscoMonster: I mean after God showed them sign after sign after sign, they loose faith along the way? I mean WTF... seriously.


thou hast said it

but perhaps there is something to Rob's theory, surely humans cannot be that stupid...?

i have found in these discussions what a difference one's attitude makes in conjunction with IQ when determining their rate of success in handling matters of religion, people sure do waste a lot of time bragging about their PhDs n' such when a 5th grader already has the capability to handle the information.

on that note, i would suggest that it was not the brains of those people that was the problem rather it was their hearts
 
2014-01-10 08:27:41 PM  

HindiDiscoMonster: or cognitive dissonance... or something, not even sure what to call it


speaking of the devil..., Rob is about to enter the "Bible is probably some sort of elaborate hoax" phase of his journey, so buckle your seatbelts

you may want to take some notes...  I always find this part fascinating

the more intelligent the person is, the more I am in awe how long they can keep it up

/most of them quickly change the subject
//touchy nerves
 
2014-01-10 09:04:39 PM  
I drunk Rob: Every human being operates on faith on some level... I have faith that the sun will come up tomorrow... I have faith that when I drop something it will fall to the floor rather than float away

i have faith that physical beings are incapable of imagining non-physical things, or that blind men are capable of describing the color yellow

i have faith that men are completely incapable of maintaining a hoax over 1000s of years through 40+ authors (including untold amounts of witnesses)

i have faith that there is a God and that His Son is your only chance of Salvation...

I drunk Rob: One that isn't a living being capable of actively doing things... When a tornado hits a town, I don't think "That cruel biatch Nature sending a tornado to hit that town and kill all those people!"... No one sent the tornado; it just formed due to the chaotic nature of weather and climate and a host of other unpredictable events and things... It wasn't an action taken by any being, but just a thing that happened, because "shiat happens!"...

Do things happen from nothing? Do living things happen from non-living things?

This^ stuff is going to be very important if you are going to convince me to be an atheist.  Let's begin by presuming that you believe everything ALWAYS existed (which ironically you cannot believe so long as we are talking about Intelligent Life... for some reason) would you care to share your evidence for such a belief?

I drunk Rob: I don't really have any desire to do so

sure you do, for you see the first step to convince IDW is being able to convince yourself...  :)

and if you have in fact stumbled upon the Truth, I'm quite certain that you wouldn't withhold such info from you pal IDW, after all we've been through...?

I drunk Rob: But, what clues are you picking up that lead you to jump to "God exists!"? Because I must've totally missed those clues...

is that some sort of "leap" of faith pun? we are not amused

a solid belief in God is not something arrived at by leaping or jumping, but rather a journey of 1,000 miles... that begins with a single step

/baby steps

it's more a race of endurance and much less a race of speed.

I drunk Rob: the idea of things randomly happening through chance (or really chaotic forces beyond our ability to fully explain) sounds absurd

Nature-Physical is more indifferent than random, it only appears random to those who don't understand its ... (puts on sunglasses) ... Nature.

The human need to justify any-every physical event with some sort of Intelligent cause does not affect me.  Though i am a bit confused about who you are referring to here, because it is usually the scientism crowd that suffers from this symptom not the religious...?

I do hate it when you mistake me for those yahoos that claim to be xtian who go around claiming "gawd did this" and "gawd did that", etc..  we are not the same.  I can assure you.

I drunk Rob: Our minds must just be wired differently or something...

are you mentally retarded? No? then we are functionally the same, brain =/= heart

look deeper

I drunk Rob: 1.  But, if this intelligent being created the universe, what created the being? 2. Has he always existed? 3. If so, why can't the universe have always existed (through a series of repeating big bangs and crunches)? 4. Or, why couldn't there have always existed higher dimensional branes floating around which occassionally collide with one another, sometimes producing what we observe as the Big Bang and resulting in the formation of a 4D universe like ours? 5. Why is there such a great need for an intelligent being to be behind it all?

1. eternal things are not created
2. yes
3. it could have, do you have any evidence to support your theory?  i have a sworn testimony from my subject.
4. put the bong down skippy
5. who said we had a need?  isn't it possible we simply came to that conclusion by observing the evidence and postulating a hypothesis, testing our theory and confirming it with facts?  you act like Science is the only methodology.  do you know how little emotion i invest into my religion? i am one of the most robotic Christians you'll ever meet, Science and Religion are but two sides of the same coin to IDW

haven't you been paying attention...?

www.theboredninja.com
 
2014-01-11 12:13:07 AM  
omg. i found out that some self proclaimed fark atheists that claim to volunteer are full of sh*t and they do anything to help poor people.

i am so surprised!

then again, they are just talking monkeys, like bill clinton. we know better than to expect the truth.
 
2014-01-11 12:41:30 AM  
Is this the thread where either everybody is an enlightened, non-believing, non-straight, non-white, non-male or DESTROYING THE PLANET!?  Because so far, a bunch of smirky twats getting "enlightened" on daddy's dime playing "Gotcha!" hasn't saved it.   :  )   themoreyouknow.jpg
 
2014-01-11 01:07:18 AM  

bunner: Is this the thread where either everybody is an enlightened, non-believing, non-straight, non-white, non-male or DESTROYING THE PLANET!?  Because so far, a bunch of smirky twats getting "enlightened" on daddy's dime playing "Gotcha!" hasn't saved it.   :  )   themoreyouknow.jpg


yes.
 
2014-01-11 10:22:13 AM  

I drunk what: so then concepts, ideas, etc.. (or "information" if you will) do not exist because they have no physical properties, it is only our "minds" that give them the illusion of existing?


They don't really exist externally to our minds, no... I mean, we could write them down in books, but without other minds to read and understand them, the abstract ideas themselves have no existence of their own... In a way, you could say they exist physically within our minds, since all memories and knowledge are just neurons in our brains wired in certain ways and firing in certain patterns...

I drunk what: so then, what sort of extra ordinary evidence do you suppose would be required to prove that a deity exists...?

I'll give you a hint:


Sure, anyone witnessing his supposed miracles likely would believe... Even I might, though I'd probably be pretty skeptical, especially about stuff like that walking on water trick, which I've seen magicians do... (And, no, I don't care what you say, I'll never accept that Criss Angel is the son of God! Satan, maybe... ;-)) But, sure, if I witness enough compelling first-hand evidence of actual miracles being performed, I'd either have to start believing or check myself into an asylum because I thought I must be crazy...

But, I've never witnessed any such thing... And, as I said, second-hand recounting of things others supposedly witnessed are not very compelling to those who weren't there to witness it themselves... People are known to lie, exagerate, misremember, and just generally be unreliable witnesses... Now, add in a time gap of a couple millennia, and make all those second-hand tales third, fourth, and more times removed tales, when we all know that stories change with every retelling... What you end up with is a collection of stories one can't trust to be accurate... Especially when the stories make seemingly outrageous claims that seem to contradict the laws of physics as we know them... I can't grasp how one would choose to favor those stories written by strangers as being more trustworthy than their own working knowledge of how reality works...

I drunk what: so then... the ONLY way you would believe that Jesus is The Son of God is IF his existence had nothing incredible or fantastical?? is this one of them catch 22 things?


What I'm saying is the only way I'd be inclined to accept the words of strangers from ages ago is if what they're saying seemed at least plausible and consistent with reality as I know it... If they wrote about fire-breathing dragons, I'd doubt them... I'd consider their writings fiction, alongside Homer's Iliad and Odyssey...

To get me to accept that fire-breathing dragons exist, I'm afraid you're going to need to show me one... Or, at least provide a lot more compelling evidence than "Some dude a long time ago said they did!"... A fossilized dragon skeleton perhaps... Something other than the sayso of an unknown stranger from ages ago...

I drunk what: you are ok with the possibility that there might have been some dude named Jesus that lived in the middle east somewhere, who might have done some carpentry or something...


And, said some really good things and had really good ideas about how to treat people and live your life... That, I think, is what is really important about Jesus: his teachings... Not whether or not he walked on water or turned water into wine or healed cripples with his touch... It's his ideas that matter, and to have those he need have been nothing more than an enlightened man, as far as I'm concerned...

I drunk what: i have faith that physical beings are incapable of imagining non-physical things


I suppose that's going to depend on how you're defining "non-physical" here... Because, lots of people have imagined stuff like ghosts and poltergeists, which are generally considered non-physical... But, then if you can define "non-physical", surely you can imagine something that fits that definition? Otherwise, how could you even define it?

I drunk what: i have faith that men are completely incapable of maintaining a hoax over 1000s of years through 40+ authors (including untold amounts of witnesses)


You're the only one throwing around the "hoax" pejorative... Are the Iliad and Odyssey hoaxes? Or are they just nice fictional accounts of Greek mythology? Remember, those Greeks actually believed in those gods and those mythological creatures mentioned... So, do you have faith that those were all real too, just because some ancient Greeks believed in them and wrote about them? If not, why do you discount those ancient accounts, but so readily accept those in the Bible? What lends so much credence to one over the other?

I drunk what: Do things happen from nothing?


It doesn't seem logical, but it does seem to be the case... But, then, lots about quantum physics seems illogical, but it's all been proven pretty damn conclusively...

Do living things happen from non-living things?

I think so, yes...

I drunk what: sure you do, for you see the first step to convince IDW is being able to convince yourself... :)


That's the entire point of debate for me: keeping me on my toes about my own beliefs, and to make sure I can justify holding them...

I drunk what: and if you have in fact stumbled upon the Truth, I'm quite certain that you wouldn't withhold such info from you pal IDW, after all we've been through...?


I wouldn't withhold anything, but at the same time I wouldn't try to impose anything on you either... I gain nothing by convincing you to disbelieve in your god...

I drunk what: Nature-Physical is more indifferent than random, it only appears random to those who don't understand its ... (puts on sunglasses) ... Nature.


Like I said, chaotic forces beyond our ability to easily explain...

I drunk what: scientism


Really? Did you just channel Bevets for a second there, IDW... You're better than that... Next, you'll be talking about "evolutionists"...

I drunk what: brain =/= heart


True, but I'm not sure what a blood-pumping organ has to do with anything... If you're using "heart" in the collequial sense, what you're talking about is still located in the brain...

I drunk what: 3. it could have, do you have any evidence to support your theory? i have a sworn testimony from my subject.


No, you have a collection of stories from a group of mostly unknown authors of unknown trustworthiness which have been retranslated and reinterpreted many times over the millennia... You do not have the word of Jehovah; you have the word of man claiming to be his word... Why should you trust those men to be telling you the truth? Do you also trust Homer to be telling you the truth in his writings? Can I take that as a "sworn testimony" from Zeus and Apollo that they exist?

The multiple big bang/crunch idea is actually highly doubtful given recent revelations that the expansion of the universe continues to speed up rather than be slowing down as would be expected for the big crunch to ever happen... So, no, I have more evidence against that than for...

The far more likely scenario is the one you told me to "put the bong down" for mentioning: higher dimensional branes colliding... But, there are also various other possibilities...

(And, yes, that a deity of some sort started it all off is a possibility... It's just one that I don't consider very likely... Because, if the deity can exist outside the realm of the universe, then something else can just as easily... And, that something else could be responsible without needing to be an intelligent entity of any sort... Just through the same "random" chaotic actions we witness in our own universe, something similar could have happened in whatever external realm this is to cause it...)
 
2014-01-11 11:09:17 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: you may be right about that


looks like Rob has some stuff to think about. if you wanna chat i may be around, though i don't frequent these parts anymore, i got bored with the tired old routines

so at least there is something grumpfuff and IDW have in common...

good luck and i will hope for the best
 
2014-01-11 11:47:35 AM  

RobSeace: They don't really exist externally to our minds, no


this is the part where you and abbey try to figure out if 1+1=2 depends on whether or not there are any humans around to calculate such things...  or if Information exists at all.

meanwhile you guys sure love the physicalism view of reality, which states that if something does not have physical (or at least "metaphysical") properties then it does not exist...

Neo and Morpheus are amused with these sort of conversations about how real the Matrix is, and how the Real World doesn't really exist because it's just an idea is some meat popsicle's brain, and ideas don't have physical properties therefore aren't real.  But if someone wants to prove that the Real World exists they can provide some sort of physical evidence in the Matrix to support their claim...? Oh dear i've gone crossed eyed again, i hate when that happens...  what were we talking about?

ah yes you were reminding me about how Reality only consists of physical things, and therefore Rob doesn't exist and is only an illusion created by his meat popsicle, and there is no such thing as math, logic, invention, or information of any sort, because they have no physical properties.

I will inform everyone who makes a living using, developing, learning from those things, that they are in fact living in a delusional world.  The poor souls...

is this a bad time to ask you to prove that you exist?  that used to be my litmus test to determine whether or not to proceed with any further discussions, i mean if the "person" with whom I am speaking cannot even prove they exist, why bother bickering about all that other stuff?

RobSeace: I mean, we could write them down in books


so then information only exists because of books, meat bags with brains, other forms of media? or it doesn't exist?? you're starting to confuse me

RobSeace: In a way, you could say they exist physically within our minds


i see so then our "minds" are physical things?  therefore MIND == BRAIN, correct?

if i slice away half of your brain, is Rob half gone?  are retards, n' such less people?  for example is a typical farker approximately equal to 0.23 of a "person" simply using brain matter as a metric...?  should they have less voting rights, etc..?  just curious

/this is the part when farkers wish i was trolling...

RobSeace: since all memories and knowledge are just neurons in our brains wired in certain ways and firing in certain patterns


i.imgur.com

...have you ever retired a human by mistake?
 
2014-01-11 12:10:37 PM  

RobSeace: Sure, anyone witnessing his supposed miracles likely would believe..


you would think.... yet

HindiDiscoMonster: I mean after God showed them sign after sign after sign, they loose faith along the way? I mean WTF... seriously... that is a serious lack of faith problem or cognative disonance... or something, not even sure what to call it.


Mr. DiscoMonster, and reality itself, seems to disagree with that hypothesis...

darn that FreeWill *shakes angry fist*

RobSeace: Even I might, though I'd probably be pretty skeptical


which is a good thing, God gave you brains to be able to separate the Criss Angels from the Jesus.  though i'm afraid i have some bad news for ya.  you have been chosen to take part in a test of Faith, and will not be privy to the types of evidence that you desire but can read plenty about in the Bible (complete with overwhelming amounts of corroborating evidence, multiple witnessed-viewpoints, etc... all just minor details).  I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news.  I recommend getting over it ASAP.  There are times to cling and obsess about things and there are times to let go.

if it's any consolation, if you feel better pointing out how idiotic people are today making claims about miracles, supernatural stuff, etc.. you will have IDW's support.  100%

we don't care for charlatans and frauds either.  even those who paved their way with the 'best' of intentions...

RobSeace: But, I've never witnessed any such thing... And, as I said, second-hand recounting of things others supposedly witnessed are not very compelling to those who weren't there to witness it themselves... People are known to lie, exagerate, misremember, and just generally be unreliable witnesses... Now, add in a time gap of a couple millennia, and make all those second-hand tales third, fourth, and more times removed tales, when we all know that stories change with every retelling... What you end up with is a collection of stories one can't trust to be accurate...


ninjakirby-like typing detected, with that awful stink of Bart D. Ehrman tainting your post

skepticism is healthy up to a point, and then you cross over into the nay-saying derp territory, Bart is good at duping semi-intelligent people like nk, because he wears the sheeps clothing of appearing to be a "fact" finding "truth" seeker, and in the end is only slightly better than the people who are still debating whether or not man landed on the moon...  but Bart knows that religion (and all those emotional investments) sells more books so he is a bit more clever than the others

i'd love to do a point by point analysis and debunking (you guys love that word) of all this garbage you are referring to, but that would take a long time and very specific amounts of study and research.  which you should be doing yourself anyway...

and in your defense, there is a LOT of information to sift through and very little time to do it, pick your battles wisely
 
2014-01-11 12:25:54 PM  

RobSeace: To get me to accept that fire-breathing dragons exist, I'm afraid you're going to need to show me one..


and to get you to accept that God exists...?

careful what you ask for

RobSeace: That, I think, is what is really important about Jesus: his teachings... Not whether or not he walked on water or turned water into wine or healed cripples with his touch... It's his ideas that matter


you are so close to being a Christian it's just silly that you aren't... are you a silly person Rob?  because it's just silly, if we were talking in person, i could just give you a nice firm slap to the face, and I bet it would correct whatever neuron misfiring is preventing you from overcoming certain mental ruts you keep getting dug into, i tried slapping my monitor, but i'm pretty sure you didn't feel it

*sigh* ... THIS^

but FWIW those miracles were absolutely necessary to ensure plenty of proof for those particular individuals who have extra thick skulls.  and here we are.

HindiDiscoMonster: I mean after God showed them sign after sign after sign, they loose faith along the way? I mean WTF... seriously... that is a serious lack of faith problem or cognative disonance... or something, not even sure what to call it.


yes Mr. Disco, i'm beginning to clearly see your point, even thousands of years later...

i mean if they lost faith after only a few hours/days, what chance do people have now?  :\
 
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