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(The Atlantic)   When you read about "The Poverty Line" in America, keep in mind the line was originally set in 1963 and it assumes all houses have a full-time housewife who is a "skilled cook" and "careful shopper" to stretch their budget   (theatlantic.com) divider line 233
    More: Interesting, abstract concepts  
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10020 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Jan 2014 at 2:11 PM (36 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-09 02:12:13 PM
And no need for daycare
 
2014-01-09 02:13:03 PM
The overwhelming problem in the U.S. is that the hardest working people are among the poorest.
 
2014-01-09 02:15:20 PM
If you're so rich, why aren't you smart?
 
2014-01-09 02:17:05 PM

ikanreed: The overwhelming problem in the U.S. is that the hardest working people are among the poorest.


How hard you work and what you're paid arnt really too correlated.

Lots of rich people are rich because of hard work... others have done little.

Lots of poor people are poor despite lots of hard work... others due to laziness.
 
2014-01-09 02:17:25 PM
The overwhelming problem in the U.S. is that the hardest working people are among the poorest.


wtf?  Can you give some examples of such an "overwhelming" problem?
 
2014-01-09 02:17:51 PM
*shrug* Everything needs updating now and then. The problem is when it  isn't updated, and that's a problem our government has in spades.
 
2014-01-09 02:18:33 PM
So the point of the FA is that a single mother raising three kids on $18,000/yr is a good thing. Right?
 
2014-01-09 02:18:42 PM
That's really what the poverty level and the minimum wage should be tied to. How much does it take ONE person, working full time, to pay rent on a modest home with lights and heat and keep the average family fed.

Problem is, now a lot of time both parents have to work just to have those essentials, which adds a daycare expense, and makes fixing proper meals tough when nobody is home to do the work that entails.
 
2014-01-09 02:19:10 PM

telejester: The overwhelming problem in the U.S. is that the hardest working people are among the poorest.


wtf?  Can you give some examples of such an "overwhelming" problem?


You've never met anyone who's genuinely poor, have you?
 
2014-01-09 02:19:23 PM
Much like capitalism only works if you have an informed consumer, but those died out with personal responsibility sometime in the 1980's.
 
2014-01-09 02:20:35 PM

CleanAndPure: ikanreed: The overwhelming problem in the U.S. is that the hardest working people are among the poorest.

How hard you work and what you're paid arnt really too correlated.

Lots of rich people are rich because of hard work... others have done little.

Lots of poor people are poor despite lots of hard work... others due to laziness.


The Poltically Correct term is "motivationally challenged." We can't hurt anyone's feeling by calling them a slacker
 
2014-01-09 02:20:46 PM

JackieRabbit: So the point of the FA is that a single mother raising three kids on $18,000/yr is a good thing. Right?


No, she's saying she needs to get off her ass and cook to make it work.
 
2014-01-09 02:22:16 PM

AgentPothead: Much like capitalism only works if you have an informed consumer, but those died out with personal responsibility sometime in the 1980's.


Well you know poverty has been the problem of indolent irresponsible people. Job creators try to help them, but you know what the bible says, job creators only help those that help themselves.
 
2014-01-09 02:23:03 PM

telejester: The overwhelming problem in the U.S. is that the hardest working people are among the poorest.


wtf?  Can you give some examples of such an "overwhelming" problem?

boygeniusreport.files.wordpress.com

They don't pay their workers overtime, they tell their workers how to apply for food stamps, they discriminate against women...
 
2014-01-09 02:23:04 PM
Of course people had time to cook in 1963. TV SUCKED back then.
 
2014-01-09 02:26:00 PM

ikanreed: telejester: The overwhelming problem in the U.S. is that the hardest working people are among the poorest.


wtf?  Can you give some examples of such an "overwhelming" problem?

You've never met anyone who's genuinely poor, have you?


I have and lots of them work hard.  Most of them are idiots.  I say that honestly.  They are stupid, stupid people and you can tell them exactly the obvious answer and they will ignore you and do it wrong and worsen their situation or keep it somewhere in the neighborhood of "completely farked".

I say "most" because there are people who got caught in medical bills, layoffs, metal illness, etc. and ended up poor (usually temporarily) and they are not idiots.  However the people who were born poor, stayed poor, and do not show any signs of ever getting out of poverty, are generally morons.
 
2014-01-09 02:26:49 PM

buzzcut73: That's really what the poverty level and the minimum wage should be tied to. How much does it take ONE person, working full time, to pay rent on a modest home with lights and heat and keep the average family fed.

Problem is, now a lot of time both parents have to work just to have those essentials, which adds a daycare expense, and makes fixing proper meals tough when nobody is home to do the work that entails.


This, and we justify it with the Prosperity Gospel.
 
2014-01-09 02:27:15 PM
What you need to do is take the most popular male name and most popular female name for the year proceeding the current by two, assign a numerical value to each later (A=1, B=2 and so on).  and then generate a sum for each name.

For example, in 2012 the names were Sophia=68  and William=79  (This explains why men earn more than women, incidentally).

Add the two values together, divide by two, multiply by the number of people in the family, divide by pets and square that number.

For example, if Sophia and William were married and had 3 kids (children) and 2 kids (goats), poverty for them would be anything less than $33,764.06 annually.  Do this for each family and set the minimum wage locally by household.

There.  Problem solved.  Why do they always have to complicate things?
 
2014-01-09 02:27:57 PM

mike_d85: ikanreed: telejester: The overwhelming problem in the U.S. is that the hardest working people are among the poorest.


wtf?  Can you give some examples of such an "overwhelming" problem?

You've never met anyone who's genuinely poor, have you?

I have and lots of them work hard.  Most of them are idiots.  I say that honestly.  They are stupid, stupid people and you can tell them exactly the obvious answer and they will ignore you and do it wrong and worsen their situation or keep it somewhere in the neighborhood of "completely farked".

I say "most" because there are people who got caught in medical bills, layoffs, metal illness, etc. and ended up poor (usually temporarily) and they are not idiots.  However the people who were born poor, stayed poor, and do not show any signs of ever getting out of poverty, are generally morons.


You're like Pope Francis except you're a complete dick.
 
2014-01-09 02:28:04 PM
So it's women's fault then.  I always suspected.  If they would just stick to making sammiches, everything would be better.
 
2014-01-09 02:28:05 PM
TIL every woman in America was a skillful cook in the 60's.

Thanks, feminism.
 
2014-01-09 02:28:11 PM
Which actually tells you how bad things have really gotten in America
look at this graph:
www.doctorhousingbubble.com

now look at this one:
www.davemanuel.com

See the Problem?   Yes the median HOUSEHOLD income has risen slightly, but only because DOUBLE the number of people per household are working in most of them.

Those numbers are particularly appalling when you look at charts like this:
2.bp.blogspot.com

and this one, combined witht he ones above, should inspire you to dust off your torches and pitch forks:
graphics8.nytimes.com

The tide is rising but only some boats are benefiting while others are taking on water so fast they can barely stay afloat
 
2014-01-09 02:30:11 PM

CleanAndPure: Lots of rich people are rich because of hard work... others have done little.

Lots of poor people are poor despite lots of hard work... others due to laziness.


Interesting that the rich people who have do little work aren't lazy but the poor people are.
 
2014-01-09 02:33:02 PM

AngryDragon: So it's women's fault then.  I always suspected.  If they would just stick to making sammiches, everything would be better.


j-walk.com
 
2014-01-09 02:34:32 PM

ikanreed: telejester: The overwhelming problem in the U.S. is that the hardest working people are among the poorest.


wtf?  Can you give some examples of such an "overwhelming" problem?

You've never met anyone who's genuinely poor, have you?


Telejester, the answer to your question seems to be 'no' couched as a deflection.

I am related to several people that are genuinely extreemely poor. And I know for a fact that they do almost no work at all. In fact the few times they actually were employed, one of them quit because he didn't want to wake up so early.  One (that I got a job) was fired because he just wouldn't do the work he was asked. One just goes out to clubs and keeps getting herself pregnant (lovely girl, gave up three babies for adoption before she started keeping them). Then there is the used car salesmen (four of them) that can't seem to keep working for the sema place for very long (but I get good deals on cars).  Now if you add into that the waves of dregs I get to meet through this group, I guess that should count as enough annecdotal evidence.

Please drop the 'weeping for the noble hard working screwed over poor' bit.
 
2014-01-09 02:34:37 PM
I don't know what the point of that article was.    Other than the comment that '1963 may seem outdated today' ?

Yeah, it might.      And it was a pretty uninteresting article.

1963
Average Cost of new house $12,650.00 Average Income per year $5,807.00 Gas per Gallon 29 cents
what that has to do with today.....I have no idea.
 
2014-01-09 02:34:38 PM

ikanreed: The overwhelming problem in the U.S. is that the hardest working people are among the poorest.


Funny'd
 
2014-01-09 02:35:37 PM

MayoSlather: You're like Pope Francis except you're a complete dick.


Thank you?
 
2014-01-09 02:35:50 PM

ikanreed: telejester: The overwhelming problem in the U.S. is that the hardest working people are among the poorest.


wtf?  Can you give some examples of such an "overwhelming" problem?

You've never met anyone who's genuinely poor, have you?


I have. And they were stupid and lazy motherfarkers to a person.
 
2014-01-09 02:36:27 PM

mike_d85: I have and lots of them work hard.  Most of them are idiots.  I say that honestly.  They are stupid, stupid people and you can tell them exactly the obvious answer and they will ignore you and do it wrong and worsen their situation or keep it somewhere in the neighborhood of "completely farked".


And?

Look, the dumb will be with you. Always.  It's not like the Scandinavian countries or whatever Asian tiger economy doesn't have plenty of 80-some IQ Joes. Everywhere does.

But, through some degree of economic protectionism, some degree of make-work, some degree of artificial value, a society can choose to trade in a little 'pure economic efficiency' for 'and the Joes do okay too'.  Or, you can say fark 'em all, gate your communities, and sell them meth.  One or the other.
 
2014-01-09 02:36:41 PM
Oh, Magorn, quit trying to confuse the matter with the truth. Sheeple, ignore this man.
 
2014-01-09 02:39:22 PM

Magorn: Which actually tells you how bad things have really gotten in America
look at this graph:
[www.doctorhousingbubble.com image 436x351]

now look at this one:
[www.davemanuel.com image 400x300]

See the Problem?   Yes the median HOUSEHOLD income has risen slightly, but only because DOUBLE the number of people per household are working in most of them.

Those numbers are particularly appalling when you look at charts like this:
[2.bp.blogspot.com image 725x537]

and this one, combined witht he ones above, should inspire you to dust off your torches and pitch forks:
[graphics8.nytimes.com image 511x452]

The tide is rising but only some boats are benefiting while others are taking on water so fast they can barely stay afloat


It's because the vast majority of employees have very little bargaining power with their employers.  We have seen a concerted effort to undermine and eliminate unionization, and have failed to enacted other laws that grant rights to employees.

The reason why wages have been falling isn't a mystery - our legal system (including right to work laws, "at will" employment, and very few mandated benefits) results in management having the freedom to pay employees low wages and benefits, and hire and fire them for whatever reason they want.  The typical employee is not in a position to negotiate with management for better job security, better pay, more benefits, etc.

It's just ridiculous for people to desperately try to explain the stagnation of wages as being primarily caused by anything else.
 
2014-01-09 02:40:21 PM

mike_d85: ikanreed:
You've never met anyone who's genuinely poor, have you?

I have and lots of them work hard.  Most of them are idiots.  I say that honestly.  They are stupid, stupid people and you can tell them exactly the obvious answer and they will ignore you and do it wrong and worsen their situation or keep it somewhere in the neighborhood of "completely farked".



This. Go be a regular at a dive bar for a month. Just sit there for an hour or two after work. You'll get to know the (many) other regulars and learn their stories. Most of them will be middling poor and you'll come to understand they'd be much better off if they weren't so stubbornly dumb.
 
2014-01-09 02:41:32 PM

blatz514: AngryDragon: So it's women's fault then.  I always suspected.  If they would just stick to making sammiches, everything would be better.

[j-walk.com image 850x550]


I love reading shait like that.  Hell, it's scary that was written a tish over fifty years ago.
 
2014-01-09 02:41:42 PM

ikanreed: telejester: The overwhelming problem in the U.S. is that the hardest working people are among the poorest.


wtf?  Can you give some examples of such an "overwhelming" problem?

You've never met anyone who's genuinely poor, have you?


I have met people who are genuinely poor because of laziness.  Not saying all poor people are lazy of course.  But they're not all hard working either.
 
2014-01-09 02:42:08 PM

Tricky Chicken: ikanreed: telejester: The overwhelming problem in the U.S. is that the hardest working people are among the poorest.


wtf?  Can you give some examples of such an "overwhelming" problem?

You've never met anyone who's genuinely poor, have you?

Telejester, the answer to your question seems to be 'no' couched as a deflection.

I am related to several people that are genuinely extreemely poor. And I know for a fact that they do almost no work at all. In fact the few times they actually were employed, one of them quit because he didn't want to wake up so early.  One (that I got a job) was fired because he just wouldn't do the work he was asked. One just goes out to clubs and keeps getting herself pregnant (lovely girl, gave up three babies for adoption before she started keeping them). Then there is the used car salesmen (four of them) that can't seem to keep working for the sema place for very long (but I get good deals on cars).  Now if you add into that the waves of dregs I get to meet through this group, I guess that should count as enough annecdotal evidence.

Please drop the 'weeping for the noble hard working screwed over poor' bit.


Lol. I nominate this post as the most hilarious post of the day. No one is this clueless.

But yeah, keep sucking that Koch. I am sure one day something will trickle down.
 
2014-01-09 02:43:26 PM

Target Builder: CleanAndPure: Lots of rich people are rich because of hard work... others have done little.

Lots of poor people are poor despite lots of hard work... others due to laziness.

Interesting that the rich people who have do little work aren't lazy but the poor people are.


If had plenty of money, I would have better things to do.

If I had no money, not so much...
 
2014-01-09 02:46:59 PM

PsiChick: *shrug* Everything needs updating now and then. The problem is when it  isn't updated, and that's a problem our government has in spades.


The Republican party agrees with you.
 
2014-01-09 02:49:48 PM

mdeesnuts: Go be a regular at a dive bar for a month. Just sit there for an hour or two after work. You'll get to know the (many) other regulars and learn their stories. Most of them will be middling poor and you'll come to understand they'd be much better off if they weren't so stubbornly dumb.


They should hit the reset button and put in the Konami code next go-around, amirite?
 
GBB
2014-01-09 02:51:07 PM
Good luck finding a woman that's either a skilled cook or careful shopper these days.  Don't even consider finding one that's both.

/my experience.
//YMMV
 
2014-01-09 02:52:23 PM

Tricky Chicken: ikanreed: telejester: The overwhelming problem in the U.S. is that the hardest working people are among the poorest.


wtf?  Can you give some examples of such an "overwhelming" problem?

You've never met anyone who's genuinely poor, have you?

Telejester, the answer to your question seems to be 'no' couched as a deflection.

I am related to several people that are genuinely extreemely poor. And I know for a fact that they do almost no work at all. In fact the few times they actually were employed, one of them quit because he didn't want to wake up so early.  One (that I got a job) was fired because he just wouldn't do the work he was asked. One just goes out to clubs and keeps getting herself pregnant (lovely girl, gave up three babies for adoption before she started keeping them). Then there is the used car salesmen (four of them) that can't seem to keep working for the sema place for very long (but I get good deals on cars).  Now if you add into that the waves of dregs I get to meet through this group, I guess that should count as enough annecdotal evidence.

Please drop the 'weeping for the noble hard working screwed over poor' bit.


You forgot one more lazy person you're related to, the laziest one of all:
paganpages.org
 
2014-01-09 02:54:17 PM

zeroman987: Tricky Chicken: ikanreed: telejester: The overwhelming problem in the U.S. is that the hardest working people are among the poorest.


wtf?  Can you give some examples of such an "overwhelming" problem?

You've never met anyone who's genuinely poor, have you?

Telejester, the answer to your question seems to be 'no' couched as a deflection.

I am related to several people that are genuinely extreemely poor. And I know for a fact that they do almost no work at all. In fact the few times they actually were employed, one of them quit because he didn't want to wake up so early.  One (that I got a job) was fired because he just wouldn't do the work he was asked. One just goes out to clubs and keeps getting herself pregnant (lovely girl, gave up three babies for adoption before she started keeping them). Then there is the used car salesmen (four of them) that can't seem to keep working for the sema place for very long (but I get good deals on cars).  Now if you add into that the waves of dregs I get to meet through this group, I guess that should count as enough annecdotal evidence.

Please drop the 'weeping for the noble hard working screwed over poor' bit.

Lol. I nominate this post as the most hilarious post of the day. No one is this clueless.

But yeah, keep sucking that Koch. I am sure one day something will trickle down.


zero, you appear to have said absolutely nothing.  that is an interesting feat on Fark.  How can describing people I am related to and know quire well possibly be clueless?  Or do you not understand the word clueless?  A post ostensibly asked for annecdotal evidence, and I gave it. Or do you think I am mistaken when an associate appologized to me for having to fire a person I recommended to them. Or perhaps I am mis-remembering the pregnancies my cousin went through?
 
2014-01-09 02:56:01 PM

mdeesnuts: mike_d85: ikanreed:
You've never met anyone who's genuinely poor, have you?

I have and lots of them work hard.  Most of them are idiots.  I say that honestly.  They are stupid, stupid people and you can tell them exactly the obvious answer and they will ignore you and do it wrong and worsen their situation or keep it somewhere in the neighborhood of "completely farked".


This. Go be a regular at a dive bar for a month. Just sit there for an hour or two after work. You'll get to know the (many) other regulars and learn their stories. Most of them will be middling poor and you'll come to understand they'd be much better off if they weren't so stubbornly dumb.


You know there are a lto fo poor peopel who don't hang otu at bars, right?

And if you are getting your info rom that, it could be coloring your view.
 
2014-01-09 02:56:08 PM

Magorn: See the Problem?   Yes the median HOUSEHOLD income has risen slightly, but only because DOUBLE the number of people per household are working in most of them.


Learn to math.  That's not what your numbers show at all.  Unless polygamy has suddenly become popular without me finding out, it would be impossible for the number of people per household to double.  It shows that (omitting households where only the wife works) in 1967, an average of 1.32 people were working per household and in 2002, an average of 1.55 people were working per household.  That is a 17.4% increase in the number of people working per household, compared to a ~20% increase (I'm estimating $41k and $45k as household income numbers here, since your graph doesn't give exact numbers).

Now, I would expect that those numbers have increased by more than the .23 people per household that your numbers show, given that there has been a rise in stay at home husbands (though it is somewhat small).  That doesn't however, come anywhere close to confirming your statement.  If anything, it actually refutes it, showing that household income has risen faster than the average workers per family.

It also doesn't begin to address the couples where both people work because they chose to.  My parents (I'm not married, so my life doesn't really apply in this situation, which is why I'm using them), for example, both work because they chose to, not because they need to.  Back in 1967, that situation was much less common, since women were more likely to stop working once they got married even if they didn't have kids.


So, in reality, the only thing I want to dust off my torch for is to burn down whatever school you went to because it clearly didn't do it's job.
 
2014-01-09 02:57:31 PM

Tricky Chicken: zeroman987: Tricky Chicken: ikanreed: telejester: The overwhelming problem in the U.S. is that the hardest working people are among the poorest.


wtf?  Can you give some examples of such an "overwhelming" problem?

You've never met anyone who's genuinely poor, have you?

Telejester, the answer to your question seems to be 'no' couched as a deflection.

I am related to several people that are genuinely extreemely poor. And I know for a fact that they do almost no work at all. In fact the few times they actually were employed, one of them quit because he didn't want to wake up so early.  One (that I got a job) was fired because he just wouldn't do the work he was asked. One just goes out to clubs and keeps getting herself pregnant (lovely girl, gave up three babies for adoption before she started keeping them). Then there is the used car salesmen (four of them) that can't seem to keep working for the sema place for very long (but I get good deals on cars).  Now if you add into that the waves of dregs I get to meet through this group, I guess that should count as enough annecdotal evidence.

Please drop the 'weeping for the noble hard working screwed over poor' bit.

Lol. I nominate this post as the most hilarious post of the day. No one is this clueless.

But yeah, keep sucking that Koch. I am sure one day something will trickle down.

zero, you appear to have said absolutely nothing.  that is an interesting feat on Fark.  How can describing people I am related to and know quire well possibly be clueless?  Or do you not understand the word clueless?  A post ostensibly asked for annecdotal evidence, and I gave it. Or do you think I am mistaken when an associate appologized to me for having to fire a person I recommended to them. Or perhaps I am mis-remembering the pregnancies my cousin went through?


No, you're just suffering from the Fallacy of Composition.  It's ok, it happens.
 
2014-01-09 02:58:37 PM
We have the occasional "grocery bill" thread here on the Fark dot coms and I always shudder at some of the totals that get posted. $200 a WEEK for a couple/small family or even a single person seems to be acceptable. Admittedly I am thrifty, single, know how to cook, don't really buy junk food and don't cram my piehole at the slightest little tummy grumble but I eat rather well on $70-80 per MONTH and could bring that WAY down if I was willing to spend more time doing prep/cooking.

That said the cost of food, especially staples, has soared as has all essential costs like housing, transportation, etc while the wages have not only stagnated but have been going DOWN when factoring in inflation, benefits, full time status (working two decently paid part time jobs is FAR more expensive than one meagerly compensated full time job) and the like.

We have trained the past couple of generations to be the ultimate bean counters who specialize in nickel and dime tactics to squeeze every last micro cent and millisecond out of every scenario they can while the salesmen lull everyone into believing they are subhuman for not making fiscally irresponsible purchases even if it means going into to debt at ridiculously high interest rates.

Then, those seemingly intelligent and cautious few who scrimp and save and claw their way into saving and investing or slave their way through jobs with supposed retirement benefits have their entire efforts wiped out every decade or so funneling it into the pockets of the very same people who would shame them if they did anything less than complete and utter meekness and subservience. Of course once the grift is complete those same entities that cried poverty and "too big to fail" have gotten their bailouts and reduced the quality of life for everyone everywhere start reporting "RECORD PROFITS" a few short years later while their victims are too old and tired to hold them accountable for their crimes.

My solution? Completely overhaul how business and economics is taught. These types of business models do NOT work in the long term despite the huge short term gains. If corporations want to be citizens and want their own little social safety net then they should also realize, that like the rest of us, contributing to that society for it's overall and sustained health will benefit them in the long run as well.

No one can buy your useless, overpriced crap if no one has the money to pay for it. I think this last ass raping we received by corporate America is about as far as it can go. The next big heist will sink the ship and even the suits will be out here with us dirty poors in the streets scrounging for rat corpses.
 
2014-01-09 02:59:26 PM

ikanreed: Tricky Chicken: ikanreed: telejester:

Please drop the 'weeping for the noble hard working screwed over poor' bit.

You forgot one more lazy person you're related to, the laziest one of all:
[paganpages.org image 280x456]


Do you have some evidence of this charge? Aside from the time I spend on Fark? Or is this just more baseless tripe you like to spew? Like your classics " the hardest working people are among the poorest." and "Just knowing that there were global cooling articles in the 70's automatically makes you a denier" (circa thread 8079447).

You do seem to have a dizzying lack of depth and ability to support your assertions.
 
2014-01-09 03:01:04 PM

ikanreed: The overwhelming problem in the U.S. is that the hardest working people are among the poorest.



Work is not valuable merely because it's hard.

Work is valuable to the extent that (a) other people desire it, and (b) the difficulty in their obtaining it through some alternative.

This is not true just because I say so.  This is an inescapable feature of objective, universal, economic reality.
 
2014-01-09 03:01:37 PM

Target Builder: CleanAndPure: Lots of rich people are rich because of hard work... others have done little.

Lots of poor people are poor despite lots of hard work... others due to laziness.

Interesting that the rich people who have do little work aren't lazy but the poor people are.


If you have no money and don't work to try and get some to feed your family... you're lazy.

If you alreafy have huge amounts of money and don't work hard... big deal... why waste your life working when you could be sipping pina coladas in Rio?
 
GBB
2014-01-09 03:02:26 PM

buzzcut73: That's really what the poverty level and the minimum wage should be tied to. How much does it take ONE person, working full time, to pay rent on a modest home with lights and heat and keep the average family fed.


The problem is that rent is partially based on the actual value of the home and the cost of upkeep to the landlord, and probably more based on the ability of the tenant to pay.

If you are getting by paying $500 a month on minimum wage and suddenly you are making an additional $300 a month because of an increase in minimum wage, your landlord is going to want a piece of that.

In 2007, rent for my apartment was $750.  In 2006 is was $730.  When the lease came up for renewal in 2008, just before the housing market collapse, they wanted $900.  I moved.  In 2011, I looked on their website and that floorplan was $8XX.  Landlords will always be greedy bastards that will base their rent schedules on the income potential of their tenants actual or prospective.

When I was car shopping quite a few years ago, the Honda Insight was the only hybrid on the market.  There was also a tax credit available from the IRS for $2,000 for buying an alternative fuel vehicle.  That was mentioned by the salesperson when I was looking.  Take a wild guess at how much over MSRP the Honda Insight I was looking at was.
 
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