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(SFGate)   Dead girl's condition improving, says lawyer   (sfgate.com) divider line 313
    More: Asinine, Jahi McMath, Arden McMath, feeding tube  
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11775 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Jan 2014 at 2:09 PM (49 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



313 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-01-09 09:58:30 AM  
So, only mostly dead? It's going to take a miracle.
 
2014-01-09 10:18:06 AM  
Just an awful situation.  No winners here.
 
2014-01-09 10:42:59 AM  
Three doctors determined Jahi is dead due to brain death, but her family believes that she is alive because her heart and lungs are functioning.

If they are only functioning due to medical assistance from ventilators, can it really be said that they're working?
 
2014-01-09 12:33:25 PM  

RexTalionis: Three doctors determined Jahi is dead due to brain death, but her family believes that she is alive because her heart and lungs are functioning.

If they are only functioning due to medical assistance from ventilators, can it really be said that they're working?


No. Her parents just can't let her go.
Very sad.
 
2014-01-09 12:39:47 PM  
Bob Falfa:
No. Her parents just can't let her go.
Very sad.


It is, but I'm not in any position to pass judgment, and god help me I don't ever want to be in such a position.  Grief can lead to irrational behavior.  Every scientific and medical opinion is that her brain is goo, she's already dead, not even the slightest chance of a recovery.  The family aren't doctors or scientists, all they hear is "Well, she's in bad shape, but you never know!"

It's just a shiatty situation all around.
 
2014-01-09 12:41:02 PM  

czetie: So, only mostly dead? It's going to take a miracle.


Approves
img.fark.net
 
2014-01-09 12:47:09 PM  

RexTalionis: Three doctors determined Jahi is dead due to brain death, but her family believes that she is alive because her heart and lungs are functioning.

If they are only functioning due to medical assistance from ventilators, can it really be said that they're working?


I believe I read it somewhere that her heart and lungs are still working without medical intervention due to the autonomic responses in those organs.  But her brain is flat line.  She is on vents to assist breathing, and what's keeping her alive really is the feeding tubes.

It is extremely sad and tragic, but she's gone.  It's time to pull the plugs and let her go the rest of the way in peace.  I know there have been instances where people in a coma have come back after many years.  But those people haven't been flat  line.  We know you love her, but let her die in peace.  Without a circus.
 
2014-01-09 12:58:01 PM  
So, I must've missed the article that explained how a f*#%ing routine operation like a tonsillectomy turned this girl into a vegetable.  Too much blood loss?  Crazy-ass brain-eating infection?  God was at His computer that day?
 
2014-01-09 01:13:11 PM  
The reason the new facility insisted on the trach and feeding tube is ease of care, and that's it. It will make it easier for them to keep her corpse warm.

This sucks. I hope her heart gives out very, very soon. Like, today. No good can come from keeping her... there isn't a word, really. Certainly not "alive."
 
2014-01-09 01:14:10 PM  

xanadian: So, I must've missed the article that explained how a f*#%ing routine operation like a tonsillectomy turned this girl into a vegetable.  Too much blood loss?  Crazy-ass brain-eating infection?  God was at His computer that day?


Someone in one of the other threads said that kind of operation presents a big danger for post-op blood loss, which is likely the cause.  Also it wasn't just a tonsillectomy, it was also to remove tissue to treat sleep apnea.  Still VERY unusual and I'm sure a team of lawyers has already been dispatched.
 
2014-01-09 01:14:32 PM  

xanadian: So, I must've missed the article that explained how a f*#%ing routine operation like a tonsillectomy turned this girl into a vegetable.  Too much blood loss?  Crazy-ass brain-eating infection?  God was at His computer that day?


From what we know, which isn't much, it was extensive bleeding. We will not know more than that until the dust from the lawsuit settles, if then.
 
2014-01-09 01:16:33 PM  

xanadian: So, I must've missed the article that explained how a f*#%ing routine operation like a tonsillectomy turned this girl into a vegetable.  Too much blood loss?  Crazy-ass brain-eating infection?  God was at His computer that day?


Adenotonsillectomy, uvulopalatopharyngoplasty and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates.  Too much blood loss post-op.
 
2014-01-09 01:32:30 PM  
And by "improving" we mean we've stabilized her condition so we can keep riding this cash potato indefinitely. Ka-ching! Ka-ching!

Or at least until the insurance company pulls the plug.
 
2014-01-09 01:33:25 PM  
Is the laywer related to Trapper John?

/tragic, I can get why her folks don't want to let her go
//she's gone
///TFSM Congress isn't involved
 
2014-01-09 01:40:32 PM  
I feel bad for the family, but this is getting grotesque and really needs to stop.
 
2014-01-09 01:49:10 PM  
This is happening in my neck o'the woods, so I get frequent updates on it. This sad situation is a direct result of faith trumping science (mother has been quoted as saying, "I know my daughter is alive! I just know it!) and a convoluted legal system that prevents the hospital from discussing their side with the family or the family's lawyers because the case is still open. They also can't address the media, because the family's lawyers have advised them to enforce privacy laws, rather than have a public discussion. Then, the family says, "They won't tell us how this happened!!!!" and the hospital says "They won't let us tell you what's going on!!!" So it's just a big clusterfark.

Having seen my parents deal with this sort of incredibly difficult decision after my sister was in a serious car accident, believe me, I feel for the parents. But they're just delaying the inevitable for no reason other than "becuz mraclez!!!" Unlike the Schiavo case, there isn't even a legal reason to keep her alive. That poor girl should be with God right now :-(
 
2014-01-09 01:54:25 PM  

Mitch Taylor's Bro: Unlike the Schiavo case, there isn't even a legal reason to keep her alive. That poor girl should be with God right now :-(


Schiavo is a whole different can of worms.  She was in a persistent vegetative state, that whole thing was highly debatable.  This poor girl is flat out absolutely brain dead and her brain tissue has probably already started to deteriorate.  There is absolutely not even a 1 in a trillion chance of a miracle.  To bring her back would be in all ways bringing back the dead.

But again, it's really hard to point fingers at a grieving family who refuses to accept this fact.
 
2014-01-09 02:09:10 PM  

Mitch Taylor's Bro: This is happening in my neck o'the woods, so I get frequent updates on it. This sad situation is a direct result of faith trumping science (mother has been quoted as saying, "I know my daughter is alive! I just know it!) and a convoluted legal system that prevents the hospital from discussing their side with the family or the family's lawyers because the case is still open. They also can't address the media, because the family's lawyers have advised them to enforce privacy laws, rather than have a public discussion. Then, the family says, "They won't tell us how this happened!!!!" and the hospital says "They won't let us tell you what's going on!!!" So it's just a big clusterfark.

Having seen my parents deal with this sort of incredibly difficult decision after my sister was in a serious car accident, believe me, I feel for the parents. But they're just delaying the inevitable for no reason other than "becuz mraclez!!!" Unlike the Schiavo case, there isn't even a legal reason to keep her alive. That poor girl should be with God right now :-(


If you believe in the concept of a soul that can exist separately from the body, and you believe that brain dead is dead and keeping the blood circulating does not mean "alive," then it can be argued that this child's soul has already discorporated and is already wherever it goes when the earthly body dies.

This is torture for the family, not the child who is already dead. And f*ck everyone who is leading them to believe differently.
 
2014-01-09 02:11:13 PM  
Here now! She says she's not dead!

/ I'm getting better
 
2014-01-09 02:14:06 PM  
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-01-09 02:14:17 PM  
Does she feel happy?
 
2014-01-09 02:15:36 PM  
This is one area where I'm actually actively opposed to religion(and any sort of non-religious dualists), rather than just "meh".  Stop pretending there's a "soul" that's separate from the brain.  This belief is causing real harm to actual people.
 
2014-01-09 02:15:51 PM  
Was she transferred to a better hospital where her condition was upgraded to "alive"?
 
2014-01-09 02:17:03 PM  
Also fark the hospital. "We accidentally killed your daughter so we're going to pull the plug on her LOL!"
/I feel for the family. Personally I would pull the plug but it's up to them.
//My mother says they would have pulled the plug eventually but the hospital decided now. So the family is never going to pull the plug just out of sheer defiance.
/// Also fark the hospital.
 
2014-01-09 02:18:30 PM  
Well, although the kid's a vegetable, I can't help thinking that the hospital that CAUSED THE FARKING BRAIN DEATH shouldn't have any more say in the care decisions, no matter how logical they're being.
 
2014-01-09 02:19:22 PM  

nekom: But again, it's really hard to point fingers at a grieving family who refuses to accept this fact.


Not really. This family is just getting bad advice. People are dangling false hope in front of them instead of reality, and they're taking the bait because that's easier than facing facts.

Like I said, my parents were there. My sister's brain was probably in better shape, but she had serious internal injuries, too. After three days of the news progressively getting worse, the doctor recommended pulling the plug and my parents agreed.

The saddest farking thing in the world is a parent burying their child. But sometimes you have to do what's best, not what's easiest.

/ great, now my allergies are acting up at work. stupid, misty, red eyes.
 
2014-01-09 02:19:37 PM  

nekom: Just an awful situation.  No winners here.


sure there's a winner, the scumbag lawyers bank account

/no offence meant to scumbags
 
2014-01-09 02:20:02 PM  
Good luck storming the castle.
 
2014-01-09 02:21:05 PM  

namegoeshere: Mitch Taylor's Bro: This is happening in my neck o'the woods, so I get frequent updates on it. This sad situation is a direct result of faith trumping science (mother has been quoted as saying, "I know my daughter is alive! I just know it!) and a convoluted legal system that prevents the hospital from discussing their side with the family or the family's lawyers because the case is still open. They also can't address the media, because the family's lawyers have advised them to enforce privacy laws, rather than have a public discussion. Then, the family says, "They won't tell us how this happened!!!!" and the hospital says "They won't let us tell you what's going on!!!" So it's just a big clusterfark.

Having seen my parents deal with this sort of incredibly difficult decision after my sister was in a serious car accident, believe me, I feel for the parents. But they're just delaying the inevitable for no reason other than "becuz mraclez!!!" Unlike the Schiavo case, there isn't even a legal reason to keep her alive. That poor girl should be with God right now :-(

If you believe in the concept of a soul that can exist separately from the body, and you believe that brain dead is dead and keeping the blood circulating does not mean "alive," then it can be argued that this child's soul has already discorporated and is already wherever it goes when the earthly body dies.

This is torture for the family, not the child who is already dead. And f*ck everyone who is leading them to believe differently.


josmarlopes.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-01-09 02:21:37 PM  

Dallymo: xanadian: So, I must've missed the article that explained how a f*#%ing routine operation like a tonsillectomy turned this girl into a vegetable.  Too much blood loss?  Crazy-ass brain-eating infection?  God was at His computer that day?

Adenotonsillectomy, uvulopalatopharyngoplasty and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates.  Too much blood loss post-op.


In layman's terms: They reamed out half her throat and hit (probably) a carotid artery. By the time they could plug it, it was all over.
 
2014-01-09 02:21:46 PM  

g4lt: Well, although the kid's a vegetable, I can't help thinking that the hospital that CAUSED THE FARKING BRAIN DEATH shouldn't have any more say in the care decisions, no matter how logical they're being.


as opposed to the parents who allowed their child to become so dangerously overweight that she needed a very risky surgery to keep from choking to death on herself in the night?
 
2014-01-09 02:22:01 PM  

Ambitwistor: Was she transferred to a better hospital where her condition was upgraded to "alive"?


Heard on the radio the other day: The transfer paperwork was filled out for the transfer of a corpse.
 
2014-01-09 02:22:20 PM  
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-01-09 02:22:43 PM  
Just wait till she finally "die dies" and the family files suit arm and arm with the ACLU
 
2014-01-09 02:23:28 PM  

whither_apophis: Is the laywer related to Trapper John?

/tragic, I can get why her folks don't want to let her go
//she's gone
///TFSM Congress isn't involved


It's early, yet. Give them a little while.
 
2014-01-09 02:23:42 PM  
Empathy on FARK?

/where am I?
//there is hope for us.
 
2014-01-09 02:24:32 PM  

thatboyoverthere: Also fark the hospital. "We accidentally killed your daughter so we're going to pull the plug on her LOL!"


g4lt: Well, although the kid's a vegetable, I can't help thinking that the hospital that CAUSED THE FARKING BRAIN DEATH shouldn't have any more say in the care decisions, no matter how logical they're being.


These statements make absolutely no sense to me. The kid's dead. Regardless of what the circumstances of her death were, what exactly is the benefit to anybody of keeping a corpse on life support? Do we dig up murder victims and force criminals to pay for their dialysis and skin treatments?
 
2014-01-09 02:27:46 PM  
img.fark.net

But can she still dance?
 
2014-01-09 02:28:04 PM  
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-01-09 02:28:12 PM  

g4lt: Well, although the kid's a vegetable, I can't help thinking that the hospital that CAUSED THE FARKING BRAIN DEATH shouldn't have any more say in the care decisions, no matter how logical they're being.


There is no such thing as a no-risk surgery, and even if the family claims that they weren't told of the risks, you can bet they signed paperwork informing them otherwise.

And this is not a care decision. It's a decision on what to do with a dead body.
 
2014-01-09 02:28:18 PM  
"Three doctors determined Jahi is dead due to brain death, but her family believes that she is alive because her heart and lungs are functioning. The family won court approval to force Children's Hospital to keep Jahi connected to the ventilator and then to move her to a new facility that planned to give her a feeding tube and tracheostomy, which her family believes will give Jahi a chance for recovery. "

Recovery from brain death. Erm.... yeah.
 
2014-01-09 02:28:24 PM  

g4lt: Well, although the kid's a vegetable, I can't help thinking that the hospital that CAUSED THE FARKING BRAIN DEATH shouldn't have any more say in the care decisions, no matter how logical they're being.


All surgeries carry risks, and any time you have surgery, you sign all kinds of shiat saying you understand the risks. Bad outcomes can occur if everything goes absolutely correctly. The body is not a machine. The child was obese, which probably contributed to the necessity of the surgery if not to the poor outcome. We do not have all the information as to the girl's condition (we do not know if a CPap was tried and failed, or if this surgery was to avoid or terminate the use of a CPap)  but we do know that the child was given invasive surgery to treat her sleep apnea instead of being made to lose weight as a treatment. Her parents allowed her to become obese which is a known contributing factor for sleep apnea, the condition that the surgery was supposed to treat.

There have also been reports (and I can't find confirmation but it was mentioned in past threads) that her parents fed her solid foods which she was not allowed to have post-op.

tl/dr : There is no evidence at this time that a medical mistake was made.
 
2014-01-09 02:28:46 PM  

pounddawg: Empathy on FARK?

/where am I?
//there is hope for us.


You'd have to be a pretty big asshole to not feel bad about a dead corpse on life support being taken on tour across the country because $$$$
 
2014-01-09 02:30:10 PM  
Fark this family for wasting valuable medical resources on a hopeless cause rather then allow those resources to be used on people who actually have a chance
 
2014-01-09 02:30:29 PM  
sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net
 
2014-01-09 02:30:42 PM  

nekom: Just an awful situation.  No winners here.



Actually there may be winners if the family would face reality and let her go.  There have to be dozens of sick children who could use her perfectly good organs and tissues out there who could benefit if they would accept she can't come back and give consent to donate her organs.  That way their daughter could live on in some capacity or at least more so than having a machine work her remains for a few weeks or months until infection or something else finally destroys her lungs and heart.  I know it is tough, but her family is spitting in the faces of those families who actually have a chance of saving their children from something curable.  I just hope that Jahi's family changes their mind before its too late to have some benefit (assuming we haven't already reached that point that the organs have degraded to such an extent as to be non-viable).
 
2014-01-09 02:31:04 PM  

thatboyoverthere: Also fark the hospital. "We accidentally killed your daughter so we're going to pull the plug on her LOL!"
/I feel for the family. Personally I would pull the plug but it's up to them.
//My mother says they would have pulled the plug eventually but the hospital decided now. So the family is never going to pull the plug just out of sheer defiance.
/// Also fark the hospital.


Pretty sure the hospital isn't LOLing about this. Mistakes DO happen, and they are going to have one hell of a malpractice suit on their hands, but the decision to take her off the ventilator was confirmed by multiple doctors, including a court-appointed neurologist.
 
2014-01-09 02:31:16 PM  

namegoeshere: Mitch Taylor's Bro: This is happening in my neck o'the woods, so I get frequent updates on it. This sad situation is a direct result of faith trumping science (mother has been quoted as saying, "I know my daughter is alive! I just know it!) and a convoluted legal system that prevents the hospital from discussing their side with the family or the family's lawyers because the case is still open. They also can't address the media, because the family's lawyers have advised them to enforce privacy laws, rather than have a public discussion. Then, the family says, "They won't tell us how this happened!!!!" and the hospital says "They won't let us tell you what's going on!!!" So it's just a big clusterfark.

Having seen my parents deal with this sort of incredibly difficult decision after my sister was in a serious car accident, believe me, I feel for the parents. But they're just delaying the inevitable for no reason other than "becuz mraclez!!!" Unlike the Schiavo case, there isn't even a legal reason to keep her alive. That poor girl should be with God right now :-(

If you believe in the concept of a soul that can exist separately from the body, and you believe that brain dead is dead and keeping the blood circulating does not mean "alive," then it can be argued that this child's soul has already discorporated and is already wherever it goes when the earthly body dies.

This is torture for the family, not the child who is already dead. And f*ck everyone who is leading them to believe differently.


I'm reading a book (A Man of Misconceptions) on Athanasius Kircher.  At several points in his life he has a near-death experience.  In writing about one of them he is quoted:

Amid "the crashing of the falling tiles and creaking of the gaping wall," Kircher prepared to hand over his soul, even sensed it being "loosened from its corporeal fetters in order to take hold of the enjoyment of an unsullied existence."

I loved the way he put that and I highlighted it.  Your use of "discorporated" reminded me of it and I'm glad I got to break it out!

/but yeah this is sad, she gone, let her go.
 
2014-01-09 02:33:13 PM  

maltedmothball: nekom: Just an awful situation. No winners here.

sure there's a winner, the scumbag lawyers bank account

/no offence meant to scumbags


The sad fact is that when they sue the doctors and hospital, they will argue that she has to be on a ventilator and feeding tube for the rest of her "life" and they'd probably get experts to argue that this would cost like $500k a year times what, 50 years?  So then the hospital has to pay that amount of money up front plus money for pain and suffering, plus wrongful death and any other survivor actions because it will be hard to argue that they didn't do something wrong.  Then the lawyers take their third, and then the girl "dies" anyway because she's already dead and all those future medical bills that got built into the settlement never have to be paid because they're gonna have a funeral instead.  This case is a goldmine for the lawyers and the family, but it's important that her future medical bills are astronomical in order to reap the maximum benefits.
 
2014-01-09 02:33:33 PM  

Bob Falfa: No. Her parents just can't let her go.
Very sad.


Never underestimate the power of denial
 
2014-01-09 02:33:40 PM  

Mitch Taylor's Bro: thatboyoverthere: Also fark the hospital. "We accidentally killed your daughter so we're going to pull the plug on her LOL!"
/I feel for the family. Personally I would pull the plug but it's up to them.
//My mother says they would have pulled the plug eventually but the hospital decided now. So the family is never going to pull the plug just out of sheer defiance.
/// Also fark the hospital.

Pretty sure the hospital isn't LOLing about this. Mistakes DO happen, and they are going to have one hell of a malpractice suit on their hands, but the decision to take her off the ventilator was confirmed by multiple doctors, including a court-appointed neurologist.


Yup. They are covered on that end.. Malrpractice is another thing.  Although I'd love to believe we live in a world that anyone would understand any surgery no matter how minor could result in you dying. Even perfect doctors are not perfect. Mistakes happen.. Most mistakes can be fixed... Some can't.
 
2014-01-09 02:34:32 PM  

nekom: Mitch Taylor's Bro: Unlike the Schiavo case, there isn't even a legal reason to keep her alive. That poor girl should be with God right now :-(

Schiavo is a whole different can of worms.  She was in a persistent vegetative state, that whole thing was highly debatable.  This poor girl is flat out absolutely brain dead and her brain tissue has probably already started to deteriorate.  There is absolutely not even a 1 in a trillion chance of a miracle.  To bring her back would be in all ways bringing back the dead.

But again, it's really hard to point fingers at a grieving family who refuses to accept this fact.


This is the epitome of "Better living through science".
 
2014-01-09 02:34:37 PM  
I can't believe this happened from a tonsilectomy (or whatever). And that's all I've got to say about that.
 
2014-01-09 02:34:49 PM  
ok - I have actually been following this (happening in my neck of the woods) and a couple of things:

1. this was NOT a "routine operation" - as Dallymo said, she had an adenotonsillectomy, uvulopalatopharyngoplasty and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates to deal with her sleep apnea (the family has never said why they didn't try to treat this with weight loss or other non-surgical procedures, like the use of a CPAP mask - an aggressive operation like this on a child is usually the last resort)

2. The family has been told repeatedly by 6 different doctors that she is brain dead (and that one does not "recover" from brain death)

3. The family's lawyer has repeatedly lied about the existence of facilities willing to accept and care for a corpse - the last one he claimed to express interest was out of NY run by a former beautician who claims this corpse just needs time to heal.

4. Post op - this family was in the room encouraging the girl to speak, eat and drink (specifically forbidden by the doctors as it might rupture her delicate stitches); additionally the grandmother admits suctioning blood out of the girl's mouth in post op but claimed it was ok - she knew what she was doing because she's a nurse (she's an LVN and has repeatedly exaggerated her licensing and training in the local media)

5. The family created a go fund me page for transport and treatment of this corpse (last I read they had over $50k in donations)

6. At least one doctor has testified that due to the brain inactivity (both brain and brain stem) the corpse is no longer regulating food, etc. (no reason it needs a feeding tube) and that the inside of the bowels are starting to slough off through stools.

Bottom line - this family is beyond grieving - they are parasitic scum who want to raise money for "the care" of their dead kid - they are playing on right to lifer's ignorance.  I just wonder how long they'll keep this charade up as the corpse is already starting to decay (under the skin and in the vital organs) and should be smelling funny soon. And really, you can buy a lot of neat stuff with $50k...

I know I went a little overboard but the news media just isn't reporting this properly (sorry)
 
2014-01-09 02:35:37 PM  
You know... instead of her costing money they could make money with her and exercise her body at the same time.  Sure plenty of guys would pay good money to bang a warm body.
 
2014-01-09 02:36:47 PM  
kardsunlimited.com

Dr. Henry Jones, Jr, pictured above, offered a different opinion, stating "She belongs in a mausoleum!"
 
2014-01-09 02:37:27 PM  
www.wearysloth.com

"Very well, let me know if there is any change in his condition."
*hangs up*
"He's dead."
 
2014-01-09 02:38:47 PM  

Daedalus27: Actually there may be winners if the family would face reality and let her go. There have to be dozens of sick children who could use her perfectly good organs and tissues out there who could benefit if they would accept she can't come back and give consent to donate her organs.


Another sad aspect of this case: she's been on a ventilator, but I don't think they've had her on a feeding tube until recently (that's probably why she's "improving"). But I bet a month without nourishment has taken a toll on her internal organs.
 
2014-01-09 02:38:47 PM  
Mitch Taylor's Bro:
Like I said, my parents were there. My sister's brain was probably in better shape, but she had serious internal injuries, too. After three days of the news progressively getting worse, the doctor recommended pulling the plug and my parents agreed.

Just a little over a year ago I had to make an end of life decision for a friend. He was on a respirator, bleeding uncontrollably and an unstoppable mould infection was literally eating his lungs up. He was kept in a medical coma because he would be in unbearable pain otherwise.

As one of his best friends and his primary care giver we had discussed this eventuality. He was on a waiting list for a lung transplant but it just never came. I knew more than anything he would not want to have to live out what remaining time he had left slowly dying on a respirator. I called his closest friends and family into the hospital to say their goodbyes then ordered the doctors to discontinue life support. They disconnected the respirator and at that moment their entire focus was on keeping him comfortable. He never regained consciousness and passed away while his son and I stayed with him.

The reason I was his power of attorney was because he didn't want his kids to have to be the ones to give the order to terminate his life support and that's a very good idea. Even though I knew what I was doing was for the best, that it was his wishes, and that I would want the same thing done to me if I were in his place it was still the hardest thing I have ever had to do in my life. I can't even begin to imagine how much more difficult it would have to be to make the same decision for one of my children.

But I know that's what my children would want to, and my children know that's what I would want. These are discussions everyone should have with their family. Let everyone know what your final care wishes are and even better write them down. Give them to a lawyer. Put them in a will.

I can't fault the parents here, but their daughter is already gone. The only thankful thing is there's not enough of her brain left to even be aware of suffering. Their daughter lives only in their memories now and what's left in that hospital is essentially just a pet nervous system.

This is just a sad, terrible story all around.

And if there's any justice the first politician who tries to capitalise on this for political gain will die from explosive genital rot.
 
2014-01-09 02:39:39 PM  

Dallymo: xanadian: So, I must've missed the article that explained how a f*#%ing routine operation like a tonsillectomy turned this girl into a vegetable.  Too much blood loss?  Crazy-ass brain-eating infection?  God was at His computer that day?

Adenotonsillectomy, uvulopalatopharyngoplasty and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates.  Too much blood loss post-op.


So... how *YOU* doin'?  ;)
 
2014-01-09 02:40:26 PM  

Ghastly: And by "improving" we mean we've stabilized her condition so we can keep riding this cash potato indefinitely. Ka-ching! Ka-ching!

Or at least until the insurance company pulls the plug.


You and I are the insurance company....
 
2014-01-09 02:40:46 PM  

shut_it_down: This case is a goldmine for the lawyers and the family, but it's important that her future medical bills are astronomical in order to reap the maximum benefits.


The family could actually be ruining their chances for a successful lawsuit.  The evidence of this case is the body and it's slowly being destroyed.  If a proper autopsy can't be preformed, how is the fmaily going to prove a case against the hospital and doctors?  Also, the defendants could make a case that any evidence found in a autopsy could have been the result of procedures performed after they turned over control of the corpse.
 
2014-01-09 02:42:21 PM  

g4lt: Well, although the kid's a vegetable, I can't help thinking that the hospital that CAUSED THE FARKING BRAIN DEATH shouldn't have any more say in the care decisions, no matter how logical they're being.


Ms. McMath is not a "vegetable". A "vegetable", or someone in a persistent vegetative state, is alive. Ms. McMath is deceased.

Additionally, the cause of death is unknown, as the family's irrational insistence that the deceased Ms. McMath is alive has prevented any autopsy to determine the cause of death. Some information suggests that Ms. McMath's family encouraged her to talk very soon after her operation, in violation of post-operation instructions, and Ms. McMath's grandmother stated in an interview that she attempted to suction Ms. McMath's throat when bleeding began, which may have worsened the condition.

An anecdotal account claims that Ms. McMath was even given solid food by a family member after the surgery, but that remains entirely unverified (and, unfortunately, it cannot be verified now).
 
2014-01-09 02:44:37 PM  

Ghastly: The reason I was his power of attorney was because he didn't want his kids to have to be the ones to give the order to terminate his life support and that's a very good idea. Even though I knew what I was doing was for the best, that it was his wishes, and that I would want the same thing done to me if I were in his place it was still the hardest thing I have ever had to do in my life. I can't even begin to imagine how much more difficult it would have to be to make the same decision for one of my children.

But I know that's what my children would want to, and my children know that's what I would want. These are discussions everyone should have with their family. Let everyone know what your final care wishes are and even better write them down. Give them to a lawyer. Put them in a will.


My parents have already had this talk with me and given me copies of their DNR orders, the originals of which are on file at their primary care physician's office. The only thing I would alter is use a living trust, not a will.

PS. You are a good, true friend for bearing such a burden.
PPS. Stupid allergies again!
 
2014-01-09 02:45:49 PM  
Sounds to me like they're getting bad legal advice, and they shouldn't transfer her if they intend to sue for malpractice.
 
2014-01-09 02:46:26 PM  

maltedmothball: nekom: Just an awful situation.  No winners here.

sure there's a winner, the scumbag lawyers bank account

/no offence meant to scumbags


Bears repeating.  Given the quote he gave (about getting the care she "should have gotten 28 days ago"), I'm waiting for the inevitable lawsuit on "letting her die" instead of saving her after the botched operation.
 
2014-01-09 02:46:43 PM  

Girl On Couch: ok - I have actually been following this (happening in my neck of the woods) and a couple of things:

1. this was NOT a "routine operation" - as Dallymo said, she had an adenotonsillectomy, uvulopalatopharyngoplasty and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates to deal with her sleep apnea (the family has never said why they didn't try to treat this with weight loss or other non-surgical procedures, like the use of a CPAP mask - an aggressive operation like this on a child is usually the last resort)

2. The family has been told repeatedly by 6 different doctors that she is brain dead (and that one does not "recover" from brain death)

3. The family's lawyer has repeatedly lied about the existence of facilities willing to accept and care for a corpse - the last one he claimed to express interest was out of NY run by a former beautician who claims this corpse just needs time to heal.

4. Post op - this family was in the room encouraging the girl to speak, eat and drink (specifically forbidden by the doctors as it might rupture her delicate stitches); additionally the grandmother admits suctioning blood out of the girl's mouth in post op but claimed it was ok - she knew what she was doing because she's a nurse (she's an LVN and has repeatedly exaggerated her licensing and training in the local media)

5. The family created a go fund me page for transport and treatment of this corpse (last I read they had over $50k in donations)

6. At least one doctor has testified that due to the brain inactivity (both brain and brain stem) the corpse is no longer regulating food, etc. (no reason it needs a feeding tube) and that the inside of the bowels are starting to slough off through stools.

Bottom line - this family is beyond grieving - they are parasitic scum who want to raise money for "the care" of their dead kid - they are playing on right to lifer's ignorance.  I just wonder how long they'll keep this charade up as the corpse is already starting to decay (under ...


I'm not calling you a liar.. Actually I love this post. I just wish you linked sources (especially about the parents at her beside doing everything they aren't supposed to be doing)
 
2014-01-09 02:47:06 PM  
There are also huge difference between "brain dead" , "persistent vegetative state" and coma.
Jahi is brain dead. That's not something you come back from. Ever.
 
2014-01-09 02:47:34 PM  
Mitch Taylor's Bro:

Pretty sure the hospital isn't LOLing about this. Mistakes DO happen, and they are going to have one hell of a malpractice suit on their hands, but the decision to take her off the ventilator was confirmed by multiple doctors, including a court-appointed neurologist.

Was there actually a mistake that happened? As tragic as this is something bad shirt just happens and it's not really anyone's fault.
 
2014-01-09 02:49:03 PM  
The sick part of me kind of hopes she does somehow magically recover, but of course her brain is completely fetid from the, you know, lack of blood. And then her idiot family has to care for that lump of organic matter for the rest of their idiot lives.

It's sad. It really is. But she's dead, let it go. Life is not precious, particularly when there's no quality of life.
 
2014-01-09 02:49:36 PM  

Ghastly: Mitch Taylor's Bro:

Pretty sure the hospital isn't LOLing about this. Mistakes DO happen, and they are going to have one hell of a malpractice suit on their hands, but the decision to take her off the ventilator was confirmed by multiple doctors, including a court-appointed neurologist.

Was there actually a mistake that happened? As tragic as this is something bad shirt just happens and it's not really anyone's fault.


Legit details are sketchy but the hospital has gone on record as saying they wish they were allowed to speak about it in detail so they can deny all the misperceptions the girls family has created about the situation. Her medical records etc are under lock and key.
 
2014-01-09 02:50:35 PM  
I'm not willing to judge parents who refuse to admit their kid is dead.

Mitch Taylor's Bro: My parents have already had this talk with me and given me copies of their DNR orders


I volunteer with patients and many have DNR bracelets on.  I've never asked them (seems inappropriate) but always wanted to.  What goes into the decision process that leads you to want to be DNR?  I get the "don't use extraordinary measures" bit if people are scared of being hooked up like this forever and I get the special scenarios of people who we should really just help and allow them to commit suicide.  I just don't get the mentality of older people who seem full of life saying "just let me go."  Maybe it's because I'm not religious -- this is all we get.
 
2014-01-09 02:54:19 PM  
Every cent this family makes from suing the doctors that gave the initial operation will go to these doctors for keeping their little potato warm.

Stupid.
 
2014-01-09 02:54:21 PM  

lennavan: I'm not willing to judge parents who refuse to admit their kid is dead.

Mitch Taylor's Bro: My parents have already had this talk with me and given me copies of their DNR orders

I volunteer with patients and many have DNR bracelets on.  I've never asked them (seems inappropriate) but always wanted to.  What goes into the decision process that leads you to want to be DNR?  I get the "don't use extraordinary measures" bit if people are scared of being hooked up like this forever and I get the special scenarios of people who we should really just help and allow them to commit suicide.  I just don't get the mentality of older people who seem full of life saying "just let me go."  Maybe it's because I'm not religious -- this is all we get.


My dad is that way.. He has told me numerous times if he has a heart attack to just let him die. He reasons

"I don't want to be taken on a "five farking thousand dollar" ambulance ride just to have half my face drooping, have to learn to walk again and hooked up to all sorts of shiat.. I love you but love you more for letting me pass as I am now and now a shell of my former self"
 
2014-01-09 02:54:47 PM  

marsgwar: shut_it_down: This case is a goldmine for the lawyers and the family, but it's important that her future medical bills are astronomical in order to reap the maximum benefits.

The family could actually be ruining their chances for a successful lawsuit.  The evidence of this case is the body and it's slowly being destroyed.  If a proper autopsy can't be preformed, how is the fmaily going to prove a case against the hospital and doctors?  Also, the defendants could make a case that any evidence found in a autopsy could have been the result of procedures performed after they turned over control of the corpse.


I had heard this also, but that her body would "heal" and cover what damage was initially caused by the operation.  My guess is that the healing doesn't last long once the whole shebang starts to deteriorate.
 
2014-01-09 02:55:08 PM  

Itchy92: And then her idiot family has to care for that lump of organic matter for the rest of their idiot lives.


Not that long, fortunately. Her heart and other organs will not last long, and infection is very likely. Soon enough she will be Truly Most Sincerely Dead. This is a good thing.

/she's dead now
//but you know what I mean
 
2014-01-09 02:55:15 PM  
Tragic story, certainly. I wish there was someone close to that family that could help them realize she is dead. I've been there with a sibling who was brain dead. It is a nightmare. But you gotta let go.
 
2014-01-09 02:57:29 PM  
lennavan:  I just don't get the mentality of older people who seem full of life saying "just let me go."  Maybe it's because I'm not religious -- this is all we get.

You live, you have a family, you have a career, you watch your kids grow and have families of their own, friends come into your life, friends go out of your life and if in your golden years you can say "You know, I've had a pretty damned good run if I go now I've got nothing to complain about".

And if you're living in a home with people who are on their last lap and you watch them all go before you and you realize some of them go bad. They have a stroke, or a heart attack that leaves them a mere shadow of what they were and linger on until the inevitable. They watch people suffer dementia and have everything they were stolen from them bit by bit until only a raving stranger is left inhabiting their body. Well a person can get to thinking there are worse things than living a good life and then dropping dead from a heart attack, much worse things. I've had a damn good run.
 
2014-01-09 03:01:52 PM  

styckx: My dad is that way.. He has told me numerous times if he has a heart attack to just let him die. He reasons

"I don't want to be taken on a "five farking thousand dollar" ambulance ride just to have half my face drooping, have to learn to walk again and hooked up to all sorts of shiat.. I love you but love you more for letting me pass as I am now and now a shell of my former self"


No offense (and I actually mean that too) but would you summarize that as he's DNR because he doesn't know better?  I say that because my father in law had a heart attack, had the stent put in and now thanks to some lifestyle changes is healthier than he was before.  Also, half the face drooping is not a heart attack, that's a stroke and the long term symptoms of a stroke are very dependent upon how fast you treat it.  So he's giving up before he even knows whether or not he will be a shell of his former self.
 
2014-01-09 03:02:14 PM  
I come from a long line of medical professionals. Most if not all of the older generation have DNRs. Their reasons are pretty much the same. To quote my mom, a RN:

"I've seen what happens when you live too long."
 
2014-01-09 03:02:23 PM  

Ghastly: lennavan:  I just don't get the mentality of older people who seem full of life saying "just let me go."  Maybe it's because I'm not religious -- this is all we get.

You live, you have a family, you have a career, you watch your kids grow and have families of their own, friends come into your life, friends go out of your life and if in your golden years you can say "You know, I've had a pretty damned good run if I go now I've got nothing to complain about".

And if you're living in a home with people who are on their last lap and you watch them all go before you and you realize some of them go bad. They have a stroke, or a heart attack that leaves them a mere shadow of what they were and linger on until the inevitable. They watch people suffer dementia and have everything they were stolen from them bit by bit until only a raving stranger is left inhabiting their body. Well a person can get to thinking there are worse things than living a good life and then dropping dead from a heart attack, much worse things. I've had a damn good run.


Very, very well said.
 
2014-01-09 03:04:13 PM  

Girl On Couch: 1. this was NOT a "routine operation" - as Dallymo said, she had an adenotonsillectomy, uvulopalatopharyngoplasty and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates to deal with her sleep apnea (the family has never said why they didn't try to treat this with weight loss or other non-surgical procedures, like the use of a CPAP mask - an aggressive operation like this on a child is usually the last resort)

2. The family has been told repeatedly by 6 different doctors that she is brain dead (and that one does not "recover" from brain death)

3. The family's lawyer has repeatedly lied about the existence of facilities willing to accept and care for a corpse - the last one he claimed to express interest was out of NY run by a former beautician who claims this corpse just needs time to heal.

4. Post op - this family was in the room encouraging the girl to speak, eat and drink (specifically forbidden by the doctors as it might rupture her delicate stitches); additionally the grandmother admits suctioning blood out of the girl's mouth in post op but claimed it was ok - she knew what she was doing because she's a nurse (she's an LVN and has repeatedly exaggerated her licensing and training in the local media)

5. The family created a go fund me page for transport and treatment of this corpse (last I read they had over $50k in donations)

6. At least one doctor has testified that due to the brain inactivity (both brain and brain stem) the corpse is no longer regulating food, etc. (no reason it needs a feeding tube) and that the inside of the bowels are starting to slough off through stools.

Bottom line - this family is beyond grieving - they are parasitic scum who want to raise money for "the care" of their dead kid - they are playing on right to lifer's ignorance. I just wonder how long they'll keep this charade up as the corpse is already starting to decay (under the skin and in the vital organs) and should be smelling funny soon. And really, you can ...


Much of this bears repeating. It's frustrating to see so many of the details being glossed over and dumbed down by the media, because a lot of people are coming away from the articles grossly disinformed.
 
2014-01-09 03:05:02 PM  

lennavan: styckx: My dad is that way.. He has told me numerous times if he has a heart attack to just let him die. He reasons

"I don't want to be taken on a "five farking thousand dollar" ambulance ride just to have half my face drooping, have to learn to walk again and hooked up to all sorts of shiat.. I love you but love you more for letting me pass as I am now and now a shell of my former self"

No offense (and I actually mean that too) but would you summarize that as he's DNR because he doesn't know better?  I say that because my father in law had a heart attack, had the stent put in and now thanks to some lifestyle changes is healthier than he was before.  Also, half the face drooping is not a heart attack, that's a stroke and the long term symptoms of a stroke are very dependent upon how fast you treat it.  So he's giving up before he even knows whether or not he will be a shell of his former self.


Read what Ghastly said.  It's better articulated. I'm not talking about a minor heart attack that most people have..  No offense taken btw.. :)
 
2014-01-09 03:05:33 PM  

nekom: it was also to remove tissue to treat sleep apnea


Well, screw getting that surgery. I'll stick with having air forced down my nose every night, thankyouverymuch.
 
2014-01-09 03:05:59 PM  

lennavan: I'm not willing to judge parents who refuse to admit their kid is dead.

Mitch Taylor's Bro: My parents have already had this talk with me and given me copies of their DNR orders

I volunteer with patients and many have DNR bracelets on.  I've never asked them (seems inappropriate) but always wanted to.  What goes into the decision process that leads you to want to be DNR?  I get the "don't use extraordinary measures" bit if people are scared of being hooked up like this forever and I get the special scenarios of people who we should really just help and allow them to commit suicide.  I just don't get the mentality of older people who seem full of life saying "just let me go."  Maybe it's because I'm not religious -- this is all we get.


Most older people have seen with their own eyes the pain and suffering of many of their friends and loved ones after things go seriously south and the miracles of modern medicine get involved in earnest. I can understand why someone wouldn't want to go through that themselves after having seen it happen several times live and in person. Religion has nothing to do with it other than perhaps using "God" to justify resigning their destiny to whatever it is that fate has already chosen for them.

We are all going to die someday. All of us. A DNR is sort of a way that some people use to have some sort of feeling of final control over that fact of life, especially if they are not capable of having a say otherwise. Medical personnel are obligated by their code of ethics and by law to not stop trying to save you once they start if you are incapable of telling them otherwise.

I mean would you want to spend your end days drooling into a spit basin unable to move half of your body while some ugly looking intern changes your diaper three times a day? Is that really living or is it simply existing until something else kills you anyway?
 
2014-01-09 03:06:08 PM  
She is the holy half dead and has been to underverse
 
2014-01-09 03:06:30 PM  

Another Government Employee: Dallymo: xanadian: So, I must've missed the article that explained how a f*#%ing routine operation like a tonsillectomy turned this girl into a vegetable.  Too much blood loss?  Crazy-ass brain-eating infection?  God was at His computer that day?

Adenotonsillectomy, uvulopalatopharyngoplasty and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates.  Too much blood loss post-op.

In layman's terms: They reamed out half her throat and hit (probably) a carotid artery. By the time they could plug it, it was all over.


Doc is in the house.
...and thanxs, from a layman.
 
2014-01-09 03:06:31 PM  

lennavan: styckx: My dad is that way.. He has told me numerous times if he has a heart attack to just let him die. He reasons

"I don't want to be taken on a "five farking thousand dollar" ambulance ride just to have half my face drooping, have to learn to walk again and hooked up to all sorts of shiat.. I love you but love you more for letting me pass as I am now and now a shell of my former self"

No offense (and I actually mean that too) but would you summarize that as he's DNR because he doesn't know better?  I say that because my father in law had a heart attack, had the stent put in and now thanks to some lifestyle changes is healthier than he was before.  Also, half the face drooping is not a heart attack, that's a stroke and the long term symptoms of a stroke are very dependent upon how fast you treat it.  So he's giving up before he even knows whether or not he will be a shell of his former self.


The problem is, you have no way of knowing and preparing for every medical possibility.  If you could, the document would be so long you'd be dead before they could find your wishes in that eventuality or they put you on a machine while they research your wishes, unfortunately, it's easier to keep you on the machine than it is to take it off if you didn't want to be there.

So you just go with a DNR and count it good.
 
2014-01-09 03:07:04 PM  

Girl On Couch: ok - I have actually been following this (happening in my neck of the woods) and a couple of things:

1. this was NOT a "routine operation" - as Dallymo said, she had an adenotonsillectomy, uvulopalatopharyngoplasty and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates to deal with her sleep apnea (the family has never said why they didn't try to treat this with weight loss or other non-surgical procedures, like the use of a CPAP mask - an aggressive operation like this on a child is usually the last resort)

2. The family has been told repeatedly by 6 different doctors that she is brain dead (and that one does not "recover" from brain death)

3. The family's lawyer has repeatedly lied about the existence of facilities willing to accept and care for a corpse - the last one he claimed to express interest was out of NY run by a former beautician who claims this corpse just needs time to heal.

4. Post op - this family was in the room encouraging the girl to speak, eat and drink (specifically forbidden by the doctors as it might rupture her delicate stitches); additionally the grandmother admits suctioning blood out of the girl's mouth in post op but claimed it was ok - she knew what she was doing because she's a nurse (she's an LVN and has repeatedly exaggerated her licensing and training in the local media)

5. The family created a go fund me page for transport and treatment of this corpse (last I read they had over $50k in donations)

6. At least one doctor has testified that due to the brain inactivity (both brain and brain stem) the corpse is no longer regulating food, etc. (no reason it needs a feeding tube) and that the inside of the bowels are starting to slough off through stools.

Bottom line - this family is beyond grieving - they are parasitic scum who want to raise money for "the care" of their dead kid - they are playing on right to lifer's ignorance.  I just wonder how long they'll keep this charade up as the corpse is already starting to decay (under ...


The saddest thing? These surgeries create copious amounts of scar tissue that, when fully healed, can cause more obstructions than prior to the surgeries.

/Voice of experience. Had the same procedures. Would NEVER go through it again.
// Ended up on CPAP anyway.
 
2014-01-09 03:07:36 PM  
What the headline made me think of:

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-01-09 03:07:40 PM  

monoski: Ambitwistor: Was she transferred to a better hospital where her condition was upgraded to "alive"?

Heard on the radio the other day: The transfer paperwork was filled out for the transfer of a corpse.


The transfer went this way: Hospital > Alameda County Coroner > Mother > Other facility.

When you get custody from the coroner, that should be your first hint.
 
2014-01-09 03:08:25 PM  

nekom: Just an awful situation.  No winners here.


As usual, it will be the lawyers who will be the winners.
 
2014-01-09 03:09:26 PM  

lennavan: I'm not willing to judge parents who refuse to admit their kid is dead.

Mitch Taylor's Bro: My parents have already had this talk with me and given me copies of their DNR orders

I volunteer with patients and many have DNR bracelets on.  I've never asked them (seems inappropriate) but always wanted to.  What goes into the decision process that leads you to want to be DNR?  I get the "don't use extraordinary measures" bit if people are scared of being hooked up like this forever and I get the special scenarios of people who we should really just help and allow them to commit suicide.  I just don't get the mentality of older people who seem full of life saying "just let me go."  Maybe it's because I'm not religious -- this is all we get.


Well, if you read up-thread a bit, my parents watched my sister rapidly decline over three days in a hospital ICU, then agreed to have her unplugged. That's ancient history (happened in the late 70's).

More recently, they cared for my great-aunt, who had bad alzheimer's. Eventually, they had to put her in a convalescent home because they couldn't care for her on their own. That gave them almost three years of insight into what goes on in places like that. They still visit and bring flowers occasionally, even though my great aunt died almost 15 years ago. But they decided that if they were ever in a situation where they might be reduced to a mere shell of their former selves (more than just the ravages of time, mind you), that they'd rather go with dignity than attempt an expensive procedure that, at best, would greatly reduce their quality of life.

They are in their mid-80's and in very good shape for their age. But they feel that they've led good lives and don't want to spend the last bits of it hooked up to machines or completely bed-ridden if some medical procedure can only bring them part-way back to health. I am also their only surviving child, and I think they really don't want to be a burden on me.

I love my folks and really want them to be healthy AND happy for as long as possible, but if this is their wish, I will suck it up an honor it.
 
2014-01-09 03:09:30 PM  

Girl On Couch: 5. The family created a go fund me page for transport and treatment of this corpse (last I read they had over $50k in donations)


I'm actually surprised that the amount isn't higher (heck, Fark raised, what, $2500 in the Buy Joe Biden a TransAm campaign purely on the basis of fun?).  Facebook and news sites are rife with impassioned pleas, with lots of capital letters and exclamation points, to let this child "live."

Websleuths has a pretty good discussion thread going (some medical folks weighing in, lots of good links to court documents, including Dr. Fisher's brain death examination report and Dr. Fiori's declaration regarding bodily deterioration since the child was pronounced brain dead).
 
2014-01-09 03:09:41 PM  

namegoeshere: "I've seen what happens when you live too long."

Ghastly: you watch them all go before you and you realize some of them go bad.


Hmm yeah, okay I get that, that makes good sense.  Kind of a the benefit of maybe continuing on healthy no longer outweighs the ever increasing risks of going out poorly.

Thanks.
 
2014-01-09 03:09:43 PM  

Ghastly: And by "improving" we mean we've stabilized her condition so we can keep riding this cash potato indefinitely. Ka-ching! Ka-ching!

Or at least until the insurance company pulls the plug.


From another article I've read, they've got a donation fund going, and it's already well ahead.  She'll be kept ... functioning ... for quite some time.

It's sick; our "reverence for life" is way out of control.
 
2014-01-09 03:13:11 PM  

lennavan: styckx: My dad is that way.. He has told me numerous times if he has a heart attack to just let him die. He reasons

"I don't want to be taken on a "five farking thousand dollar" ambulance ride just to have half my face drooping, have to learn to walk again and hooked up to all sorts of shiat.. I love you but love you more for letting me pass as I am now and now a shell of my former self"

No offense (and I actually mean that too) but would you summarize that as he's DNR because he doesn't know better?  I say that because my father in law had a heart attack, had the stent put in and now thanks to some lifestyle changes is healthier than he was before.  Also, half the face drooping is not a heart attack, that's a stroke and the long term symptoms of a stroke are very dependent upon how fast you treat it.  So he's giving up before he even knows whether or not he will be a shell of his former self.


My mother is a hospice worker and I'm her POA, so she's been pretty clear about why she's a DNR. In older patients, the efforts to revive them from something even as "simple" as a heart attack often cause serious damage. A cracked rib cage during compressions and now you're alive, but in horrible, unnecessary pain that will probably lead to dying of pneumonia. There are many people who feel the same way about cancer treatments. Chemo is awful. It's not living - it's suffering through being poisoned to delay death. Sometimes it works, a lot of times it doesn't, and saps the energy from you to live your remaining years pain-free. I believe people who have a DNR are people who are more concerned with their quality of life than just being alive. From what my mother tells me, they tend to be better informed about the reality of being resuscitated than those who don't have a DNR.
 
2014-01-09 03:14:08 PM  
My God, what a horror show. Does anyone else wonder if they just brought her home and we're watching a real-time re-enactment of "A Rose For Emily"? I can understand the family not wanting to let go; I can't imagine the shock and horror they must have gone through when their daughter collapsed and died. The cognitive dissonance in being told that someone is dead when they still look like they're breathing has got to be huge, especially since this wasn't a surgery known for being particularly dangerous. But the bottom-feeders who are encouraging them and confusing the issue with stories of people in comas and vegetative states who woke up ... I can't believe those people can look at themselves in the mirror. All they've done to this family is whip them into a state where instead of grieving and burying their daughter, they're going to watch her body decompose in front of them while trying to will her back to life. Whom does that help, exactly?

As I've said before, I'm probably 95% more pro-life than most of Fark, but there's nothing pro-life about this. Her life is over, it's done -- she died back in December, and there have certainly been enough second, third and fourth opinions to verify that the diagnosis of brain death wasn't in error. From the Catholic perspective, brain death means her soul is already with God and her body should be laid to rest.
 
2014-01-09 03:14:29 PM  

Sgt.Zim: Ghastly: And by "improving" we mean we've stabilized her condition so we can keep riding this cash potato indefinitely. Ka-ching! Ka-ching!

Or at least until the insurance company pulls the plug.

From another article I've read, they've got a donation fund going, and it's already well ahead.  She'll be kept ... functioning ... for quite some time.

It's sick; our "reverence for life" is way out of control.


Who the fark is donating all this cash to keep a corpse "alive"? That's even more sick.. What the hell is wrong with this country?
 
2014-01-09 03:14:46 PM  

Dallymo: Dr. Fiori's


Oops...Flori, not Fiori.
 
2014-01-09 03:14:48 PM  

lennavan: styckx: My dad is that way.. He has told me numerous times if he has a heart attack to just let him die.

No offense (and I actually mean that too) but would you summarize that as he's DNR because he doesn't know better?  I say that because my father in law had a heart attack, had the stent put in and now thanks to some lifestyle changes is healthier than he was before.


This. My dad's had three heart attacks (the first one 20 years ago last month, the third one he didn't even know about until the doc took a closer look at some regular checkup results), is walking around with five stents in him, and went through four pacemakers until they found one that actually worked properly for him. He's doing fine good okay for a guy in his mid-60s.
 
2014-01-09 03:15:57 PM  

nekom: Bob Falfa:
No. Her parents just can't let her go.
Very sad.

It is, but I'm not in any position to pass judgment, and god help me I don't ever want to be in such a position.  Grief can lead to irrational behavior.  Every scientific and medical opinion is that her brain is goo, she's already dead, not even the slightest chance of a recovery.  The family aren't doctors or scientists, all they hear is "Well, she's in bad shape, but you never know!"

It's just a shiatty situation all around.


Even a doctor or scientis might find themselves unable to let go of a daughter that had her whole life ahead of her.
This family doesn't need ridicule. Let them hold onto her body in that state as long as they need to. It's part of the grieving process and eventually they will be ready to turn off the machines. It's not like the girl is suffering in the meantime.
 
2014-01-09 03:16:21 PM  
She could still recover!

cdn.screenrant.com

She just needs a stint in Tahiti.  It's a magical place.
 
2014-01-09 03:18:21 PM  

styckx: Girl On Couch: ok - I have actually been following this (happening in my neck of the woods) and a couple of things:

1. this was NOT a "routine operation" - as Dallymo said, she had an adenotonsillectomy, uvulopalatopharyngoplasty and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates to deal with her sleep apnea (the family has never said why they didn't try to treat this with weight loss or other non-surgical procedures, like the use of a CPAP mask - an aggressive operation like this on a child is usually the last resort)

2. The family has been told repeatedly by 6 different doctors that she is brain dead (and that one does not "recover" from brain death)

3. The family's lawyer has repeatedly lied about the existence of facilities willing to accept and care for a corpse - the last one he claimed to express interest was out of NY run by a former beautician who claims this corpse just needs time to heal.

4. Post op - this family was in the room encouraging the girl to speak, eat and drink (specifically forbidden by the doctors as it might rupture her delicate stitches); additionally the grandmother admits suctioning blood out of the girl's mouth in post op but claimed it was ok - she knew what she was doing because she's a nurse (she's an LVN and has repeatedly exaggerated her licensing and training in the local media)

5. The family created a go fund me page for transport and treatment of this corpse (last I read they had over $50k in donations)

6. At least one doctor has testified that due to the brain inactivity (both brain and brain stem) the corpse is no longer regulating food, etc. (no reason it needs a feeding tube) and that the inside of the bowels are starting to slough off through stools.

I'm not calling you a liar.. Actually I love this post. I just wish you linked sources (especially about the parents at her beside doing everything they aren't supposed to be doing)


Here is the transcript from Doctor Flori at Children's Hospital Oakland:
http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/HeidiFlori.pdf
 
2014-01-09 03:20:51 PM  
"Here at the Dolan Law Firm, we can get your Final Judgement by God overturned. Here's some real corpses that the Dolan Law Firm fought for and brought back to life..."

/Bay Area Farkers will get it...
//won't blame the family, but I can and will blame the ambulance chasers giving them false hope
 
2014-01-09 03:20:56 PM  

JohnTuttle: lennavan: styckx: My dad is that way.. He has told me numerous times if he has a heart attack to just let him die.

No offense (and I actually mean that too) but would you summarize that as he's DNR because he doesn't know better?  I say that because my father in law had a heart attack, had the stent put in and now thanks to some lifestyle changes is healthier than he was before.

This. My dad's had three heart attacks (the first one 20 years ago last month, the third one he didn't even know about until the doc took a closer look at some regular checkup results), is walking around with five stents in him, and went through four pacemakers until they found one that actually worked properly for him. He's doing fine good okay for a guy in his mid-60s.


People with DNR's don't get them in their 40's. They get them when they hit their 70's or so or when they know that they have a medical condition where the "Fix" is usually worse than death itself when that death could be fairly quick (at least in their eyes).
 
2014-01-09 03:21:51 PM  

linda7900: Here is the transcript from Doctor Flori at Children's Hospital Oakland:
http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/HeidiFlori.pdf


And Dr. Fisher's report from the brain death examination he performed:
http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/Fisher+-+Redacted+Rpt_1.pdf

Fisher is the chief of pediatric neurology at Stanford.
 
2014-01-09 03:22:56 PM  
www.wearysloth.com

Maybe they can help?
 
2014-01-09 03:23:10 PM  

matterri: The saddest thing? These surgeries create copious amounts of scar tissue that, when fully healed, can cause more obstructions than prior to the surgeries.

/Voice of experience. Had the same procedures. Would NEVER go through it again.
// Ended up on CPAP anyway.


Would you please explain to the class exactly what those surgeries involve? I think there is some confusion with folks thinking this is the same T&A* that was so common a generation ago.

*No, not Tits and Ass you dirty minded farkers ; )
 
2014-01-09 03:23:20 PM  

Sgt.Zim: Ghastly: And by "improving" we mean we've stabilized her condition so we can keep riding this cash potato indefinitely. Ka-ching! Ka-ching!

Or at least until the insurance company pulls the plug.

From another article I've read, they've got a donation fund going, and it's already well ahead.  She'll be kept ... functioning ... for quite some time.

It's sick; our "reverence for life" is way out of control.


I'll be surprised if she makes it to the end of the month. The brain produces hormones that regulate blood pressure and body temperature and the brain stem handles all our autonomic functions, like peristalses, which moves food along through the digestive system. When the brain is completely dead, those functions don't work anymore. Infections and organ shutdown are inevitable

The PDF I linked to earlier is the legal transcript from the doctor who handled Javi McMath's case and it sums up her reasons why Javi should not get the tracheostomy and feeding tube. It's pretty grim reading.
 
2014-01-09 03:23:39 PM  

styckx: Sgt.Zim: Ghastly: And by "improving" we mean we've stabilized her condition so we can keep riding this cash potato indefinitely. Ka-ching! Ka-ching!

Or at least until the insurance company pulls the plug.

From another article I've read, they've got a donation fund going, and it's already well ahead.  She'll be kept ... functioning ... for quite some time.

It's sick; our "reverence for life" is way out of control.

Who the fark is donating all this cash to keep a corpse "alive"? That's even more sick.. What the hell is wrong with this country?


The "right to life" crowd, mostly.
 
2014-01-09 03:25:53 PM  

linda7900: styckx: Girl On Couch: ok - I have actually been following this (happening in my neck of the woods) and a couple of things:

1. this was NOT a "routine operation" - as Dallymo said, she had an adenotonsillectomy, uvulopalatopharyngoplasty and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates to deal with her sleep apnea (the family has never said why they didn't try to treat this with weight loss or other non-surgical procedures, like the use of a CPAP mask - an aggressive operation like this on a child is usually the last resort)

2. The family has been told repeatedly by 6 different doctors that she is brain dead (and that one does not "recover" from brain death)

3. The family's lawyer has repeatedly lied about the existence of facilities willing to accept and care for a corpse - the last one he claimed to express interest was out of NY run by a former beautician who claims this corpse just needs time to heal.

4. Post op - this family was in the room encouraging the girl to speak, eat and drink (specifically forbidden by the doctors as it might rupture her delicate stitches); additionally the grandmother admits suctioning blood out of the girl's mouth in post op but claimed it was ok - she knew what she was doing because she's a nurse (she's an LVN and has repeatedly exaggerated her licensing and training in the local media)

5. The family created a go fund me page for transport and treatment of this corpse (last I read they had over $50k in donations)

6. At least one doctor has testified that due to the brain inactivity (both brain and brain stem) the corpse is no longer regulating food, etc. (no reason it needs a feeding tube) and that the inside of the bowels are starting to slough off through stools.

I'm not calling you a liar.. Actually I love this post. I just wish you linked sources (especially about the parents at her beside doing everything they aren't supposed to be doing)

Here is the transcript from Doctor Flori at Children's Hospital Oakland:
h ...


You rule.. Thank you.. That makes this entire thing more sick.. Paints a good picture of how this girl really is a decomposing cold lump of flesh at this point.
 
2014-01-09 03:28:39 PM  

NutWrench: Sgt.Zim: Ghastly: And by "improving" we mean we've stabilized her condition so we can keep riding this cash potato indefinitely. Ka-ching! Ka-ching!

Or at least until the insurance company pulls the plug.

From another article I've read, they've got a donation fund going, and it's already well ahead.  She'll be kept ... functioning ... for quite some time.

It's sick; our "reverence for life" is way out of control.

I'll be surprised if she makes it to the end of the month. The brain produces hormones that regulate blood pressure and body temperature and the brain stem handles all our autonomic functions, like peristalses, which moves food along through the digestive system. When the brain is completely dead, those functions don't work anymore. Infections and organ shutdown are inevitable

The PDF I linked to earlier is the legal transcript from the doctor who handled Javi McMath's case and it sums up her reasons why Javi should not get the tracheostomy and feeding tube. It's pretty grim reading.


Yeah, thanks for that.  When I wrote my earlier post, I hadn't read the doctor's transcript, and didn't realize that she'd already started to, essentially, decompose ...

As Daedelus27 pointed out, the body's going to completely go to waste rather than possibly be donated.

Disgusting.
 
2014-01-09 03:29:32 PM  
The circus came to town with this girl. People claiming the organ harvesters wanted to sell her body parts; the mother, believing that she's going to wake up; lawyers; grandma changing her story; idiots screaming that Jahi was mistreated because she's black. In the center is a sad, deteriorating mass of flesh that slowly rots away.

The bleedout occurred  during recovery, and according to early accounts, at home. Later accounts changed that to happening at the hospital.

All I know is that I wouldn't want to have to be taking care of the corpse.
 
2014-01-09 03:30:10 PM  

RexTalionis: If they are only functioning due to medical assistance from ventilators, can it really be said that they're working?


The ventilator does the lungs, not the heart.  The heart is quite capable of functioning without any commands from the brain, though.  (It's better able to react to changes with the nerve connection but transplant patients don't have the nerve connection and yet live.)

I also would think she might do a bit better on a feeding tube rather than just a dextrose drip.  That says nothing about recovery, though.

Smoking GNU: "Three doctors determined Jahi is dead due to brain death, but her family believes that she is alive because her heart and lungs are functioning. The family won court approval to force Children's Hospital to keep Jahi connected to the ventilator and then to move her to a new facility that planned to give her a feeding tube and tracheostomy, which her family believes will give Jahi a chance for recovery. "

Recovery from brain death. Erm.... yeah.


I certainly hope she doesn't--that would be the start of the zombie apocalypse!

marsgwar: The family could actually be ruining their chances for a successful lawsuit. The evidence of this case is the body and it's slowly being destroyed. If a proper autopsy can't be preformed, how is the fmaily going to prove a case against the hospital and doctors? Also, the defendants could make a case that any evidence found in a autopsy could have been the result of procedures performed after they turned over control of the corpse.


No, it's the other way around.  A destroyed body is to their benefit so the eventual autopsy can't show what happened.  In a case like this the burden will be on the hospital to show there was nothing wrong rather than the family to show wrong.  Yeah, that's not how it's *supposed* to work.
 
2014-01-09 03:31:30 PM  
Girl On Couch:

Bottom line - this family is beyond grieving - they are parasitic scum who want to raise money for "the care" of their dead kid - they are playing on right to lifer's ignorance.  I just wonder how long they'll keep this charade up as the corpse is already starting to decay

So any attempt by parents of dead girl to hold on to hope makes them parasitic scum?  What if for the sake of argument we say that the hospital that performed the operation that ultimately led to the child's death has a monetary interest in seeing her die die (as opposed to just brain dead die).  You see if medical care is being provided for that child they may theoretically be liable to pay for every bit of that.  If she were to pass away entirely there would be no continuing cost of care to factor into a settlement.  Are they now parasitic scum that just want to save the inevitable lawsuit payment from having another zero attached to it?  You essentially present the exact same argument to condemn the parents in this action.  Why is the hospital getting a pass?

Let me help you out with question of whether the hospital or the family is full of fiends. the answer is likely NO.  Faulting these parents for making a decision based more on grief than rational thought might be ok, but saying that they are making a decision solely for financial gain is outrageous without one shred of evidence to corroborate that allegation.  Saying that a hospital is somehow conspiring to kill this child is also crazy town.  They might have farked up and here inevitable death may end up making that fark up cost far less than it would otherwise, but there's no conspiracy to kill kill (as opposed to just brain dead kill) this girl.

In conclusion, your assumption that a grieving family is a group of terrible humans is probably more an internal reflection upon the speaker than an objective assessment of the situation.
 
2014-01-09 03:31:43 PM  

linda7900: styckx: Girl On Couch: ok - I have actually been following this (happening in my neck of the woods) and a couple of things:

1. this was NOT a "routine operation" - as Dallymo said, she had an adenotonsillectomy, uvulopalatopharyngoplasty and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates to deal with her sleep apnea (the family has never said why they didn't try to treat this with weight loss or other non-surgical procedures, like the use of a CPAP mask - an aggressive operation like this on a child is usually the last resort)

2. The family has been told repeatedly by 6 different doctors that she is brain dead (and that one does not "recover" from brain death)

3. The family's lawyer has repeatedly lied about the existence of facilities willing to accept and care for a corpse - the last one he claimed to express interest was out of NY run by a former beautician who claims this corpse just needs time to heal.

4. Post op - this family was in the room encouraging the girl to speak, eat and drink (specifically forbidden by the doctors as it might rupture her delicate stitches); additionally the grandmother admits suctioning blood out of the girl's mouth in post op but claimed it was ok - she knew what she was doing because she's a nurse (she's an LVN and has repeatedly exaggerated her licensing and training in the local media)

5. The family created a go fund me page for transport and treatment of this corpse (last I read they had over $50k in donations)

6. At least one doctor has testified that due to the brain inactivity (both brain and brain stem) the corpse is no longer regulating food, etc. (no reason it needs a feeding tube) and that the inside of the bowels are starting to slough off through stools.

I'm not calling you a liar.. Actually I love this post. I just wish you linked sources (especially about the parents at her beside doing everything they aren't supposed to be doing)

Here is the transcript from Doctor Flori at Children's Hospital Oakland:
h ...


Thanks for posting - I'm at work now (fools are actually wanting me to work - wtf?) and haven't had time to grab citations, etc....
 
2014-01-09 03:32:25 PM  

styckx: You rule.. Thank you.. That makes this entire thing more sick.. Paints a good picture of how this girl really is a decomposing cold lump of flesh at this point.


I live less than a mile from Childrens Hospital, lots of local coverage.  The worst part is some of the interviews that have been done with some of the nursing staff- how completely demoralizing and horrifying it was for them to have to handle and care for a corpse due to the court order. No links for these, sorry.

and yes, she hemorrhaged 3 days post-op while her family was visiting. the *rumor* is that the family had brought in some solid food for her, which caused her stitches to tear which led to the hemorrhage (and brain death).
 
2014-01-09 03:33:09 PM  

Ghastly: lennavan:  I just don't get the mentality of older people who seem full of life saying "just let me go."  Maybe it's because I'm not religious -- this is all we get.

You live, you have a family, you have a career, you watch your kids grow and have families of their own, friends come into your life, friends go out of your life and if in your golden years you can say "You know, I've had a pretty damned good run if I go now I've got nothing to complain about".

And if you're living in a home with people who are on their last lap and you watch them all go before you and you realize some of them go bad. They have a stroke, or a heart attack that leaves them a mere shadow of what they were and linger on until the inevitable. They watch people suffer dementia and have everything they were stolen from them bit by bit until only a raving stranger is left inhabiting their body. Well a person can get to thinking there are worse things than living a good life and then dropping dead from a heart attack, much worse things. I've had a damn good run.


Indeed.
 
2014-01-09 03:36:30 PM  

NutWrench: Sgt.Zim: Ghastly: And by "improving" we mean we've stabilized her condition so we can keep riding this cash potato indefinitely. Ka-ching! Ka-ching!

Or at least until the insurance company pulls the plug.

From another article I've read, they've got a donation fund going, and it's already well ahead.  She'll be kept ... functioning ... for quite some time.

It's sick; our "reverence for life" is way out of control.

I'll be surprised if she makes it to the end of the month. The brain produces hormones that regulate blood pressure and body temperature and the brain stem handles all our autonomic functions, like peristalses, which moves food along through the digestive system. When the brain is completely dead, those functions don't work anymore. Infections and organ shutdown are inevitable

The PDF I linked to earlier is the legal transcript from the doctor who handled Javi McMath's case and it sums up her reasons why Javi should not get the tracheostomy and feeding tube. It's pretty grim reading.


Jesus.  It says she's starting to get rigor mortis.  Creepy.
 
2014-01-09 03:39:13 PM  

angry bunny: Girl On Couch:

Bottom line - this family is beyond grieving - they are parasitic scum who want to raise money for "the care" of their dead kid - they are playing on right to lifer's ignorance.  I just wonder how long they'll keep this charade up as the corpse is already starting to decay

So any attempt by parents of dead girl to hold on to hope makes them parasitic scum?  What if for the sake of argument we say that the hospital that performed the operation that ultimately led to the child's death has a monetary interest in seeing her die die (as opposed to just brain dead die).  You see if medical care is being provided for that child they may theoretically be liable to pay for every bit of that.  If she were to pass away entirely there would be no continuing cost of care to factor into a settlement.  Are they now parasitic scum that just want to save the inevitable lawsuit payment from having another zero attached to it?  You essentially present the exact same argument to condemn the parents in this action.  Why is the hospital getting a pass?

Let me help you out with question of whether the hospital or the family is full of fiends. the answer is likely NO.  Faulting these parents for making a decision based more on grief than rational thought might be ok, but saying that they are making a decision solely for financial gain is outrageous without one shred of evidence to corroborate that allegation.  Saying that a hospital is somehow conspiring to kill this child is also crazy town.  They might have farked up and here inevitable death may end up making that fark up cost far less than it would otherwise, but there's no conspiracy to kill kill (as opposed to just brain dead kill) this girl.

In conclusion, your assumption that a grieving family is a group of terrible humans is probably more an internal reflection upon the speaker than an objective assessment of the situation.


No - what makes them parasitic scum is that they are using their daughter's death with this obscene promise of "life" (and that's what it is) to raise money when they have to know full well she will NOT be making any sort of recovery.

To borrow an old phrase familiar to most Farkers: study it out....read the local news reports that have been coming in over the last month and see with your own eyes the deceptive and ridiculous circus environment they created with the help of their grifter attorney.
 
2014-01-09 03:39:29 PM  
Collection of a few posts here:

So the brain is dead and the body can no longer process food but the new hospital has placed a feeding tube in her.

Does this sound like a problem to anyone?
 
2014-01-09 03:40:01 PM  
Three doctors determined Jahi is dead due to brain death, but her family believes that she is alive because her heart and lungs are functioning

I'm guessing low education and lots of time spent in church.
 
2014-01-09 03:40:32 PM  

JohnTuttle: nekom: it was also to remove tissue to treat sleep apnea

Well, screw getting that surgery. I'll stick with having air forced down my nose every night, thankyouverymuch.


My dad got the surgery, and after hearing how painful it was, I'm glad to be breathing with a machine at night.
 
2014-01-09 03:40:45 PM  

monoski: Collection of a few posts here:

So the brain is dead and the body can no longer process food but the new hospital has placed a feeding tube in her.

Does this sound like a problem to anyone?


Yep and it's gonna start smelling like a problem to those around this corpse pretty soon....
 
2014-01-09 03:41:15 PM  
Mystery Vortex:
Even a doctor or scientis might find themselves unable to let go of a daughter that had her whole life ahead of her.
This family doesn't need ridicule. Let them hold onto her body in that state as long as they need to. It's part of the grieving process and eventually they will be ready to turn off the machines. It's not like the girl is suffering in the meantime.


Well, that's the one saving grace here.  But it's still using a lot of medical resources on a total lost cause that could be better allocated to help someone who isn't quite literally dead.  As for whether this is better or worse for the family, I don't know.  Medically speaking this is absurd.  Emotionally speaking, who knows.
 
2014-01-09 03:42:35 PM  
Raise your hand if you submitted this story with a better headline.

I hate being this guy, because I hate this guy. My HL wasn't super funny, and this story isn't funny, but my headline was better. I am going to ban myself for a couple of weeks. Maybe my mojo is off.

By the way, the lawyer is a scumbag.
 
2014-01-09 03:43:27 PM  

linda7900: and yes, she hemorrhaged 3 days post-op while her family was visiting. the *rumor* is that the family had brought in some solid food for her, which caused her stitches to tear which led to the hemorrhage (and brain death).


I hope there is security camera footage, and they can arrest the parents for negligence and child endangerment.
 
2014-01-09 03:45:13 PM  

Anayalator: Raise your hand if you submitted this story with a better headline.

I hate being this guy, because I hate this guy. My HL wasn't super funny, and this story isn't funny, but my headline was better. I am going to ban myself for a couple of weeks. Maybe my mojo is off.

By the way, the lawyer is a scumbag.


Ha ha, my headline got greenlighted.

BTW, which one was yours?
 
2014-01-09 03:46:42 PM  

LemSkroob: linda7900: and yes, she hemorrhaged 3 days post-op while her family was visiting. the *rumor* is that the family had brought in some solid food for her, which caused her stitches to tear which led to the hemorrhage (and brain death).

I hope there is security camera footage, and they can arrest the parents for negligence and child endangerment.


Right now the hospital can't rebut or show any evidence like that due to HIPPA constraints.  So this family (and their scumbag attorney) has basically just had an open forum to make up their own reality....  It's really been weird to watch unfold.
 
2014-01-09 03:48:59 PM  
Just needs one of these...

img.fark.net

/seriously, though, it's going to be horrifying to the family when the decomposition starts accelerating
 
2014-01-09 03:49:51 PM  

namegoeshere: xanadian: So, I must've missed the article that explained how a f*#%ing routine operation like a tonsillectomy turned this girl into a vegetable.  Too much blood loss?  Crazy-ass brain-eating infection?  God was at His computer that day?

From what we know, which isn't much, it was extensive bleeding. We will not know more than that until the dust from the lawsuit settles, if then.


IIRC, there was an article posted to Fark that alleged the family was giving her solid food not long after surgery.

I will attempt to find it, but I am mobile Farking.
 
2014-01-09 03:53:17 PM  

Sgt.Zim: Ghastly: And by "improving" we mean we've stabilized her condition so we can keep riding this cash potato indefinitely. Ka-ching! Ka-ching!

Or at least until the insurance company pulls the plug.

From another article I've read, they've got a donation fund going, and it's already well ahead.  She'll be kept ... functioning ... for quite some time.

It's sick; our "reverence for life" is way out of control.


Well you know what they say. You can't get blood from a stone but you can milk a vegetable.
 
2014-01-09 03:57:29 PM  
If she wakes up I'm stocking up on canned goods and bullets.
 
2014-01-09 03:57:56 PM  
I got this

images2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-01-09 04:01:51 PM  

Girl On Couch: ok - I have actually been following this (happening in my neck of the woods) and a couple of things:

1. this was NOT a "routine operation" - as Dallymo said, she had an adenotonsillectomy, uvulopalatopharyngoplasty and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates to deal with her sleep apnea (the family has never said why they didn't try to treat this with weight loss or other non-surgical procedures, like the use of a CPAP mask - an aggressive operation like this on a child is usually the last resort)

2. The family has been told repeatedly by 6 different doctors that she is brain dead (and that one does not "recover" from brain death)

3. The family's lawyer has repeatedly lied about the existence of facilities willing to accept and care for a corpse - the last one he claimed to express interest was out of NY run by a former beautician who claims this corpse just needs time to heal.

4. Post op - this family was in the room encouraging the girl to speak, eat and drink (specifically forbidden by the doctors as it might rupture her delicate stitches); additionally the grandmother admits suctioning blood out of the girl's mouth in post op but claimed it was ok - she knew what she was doing because she's a nurse (she's an LVN and has repeatedly exaggerated her licensing and training in the local media)

5. The family created a go fund me page for transport and treatment of this corpse (last I read they had over $50k in donations)

6. At least one doctor has testified that due to the brain inactivity (both brain and brain stem) the corpse is no longer regulating food, etc. (no reason it needs a feeding tube) and that the inside of the bowels are starting to slough off through stools.

Bottom line - this family is beyond grieving - they are parasitic scum who want to raise money for "the care" of their dead kid - they are playing on right to lifer's ignorance.  I just wonder how long they'll keep this charade up as the corpse is already starting to decay (under ...


At first, i wanted to slap the shiat out of this family for not listening to the doctors about the fact that the poor kid is no. Coming. BACK.

Now I just want to slap the shiat out of this family for being stupid.

Empathy? You want empathy? No. They lost that from me when they started doing STUPID shiat IN POST OP.

When her tongue falls out during a routine suction (this happens to brain dead people, folks, they are DEAD and they ROT) maybe they'll reconsider. UGH.
 
2014-01-09 04:02:46 PM  

xanadian: So, I must've missed the article that explained how a f*#%ing routine operation like a tonsillectomy turned this girl into a vegetable.  Too much blood loss?  Crazy-ass brain-eating infection?  God was at His computer that day?


I have a co-worker whose young niece died under similar circumstances. It turned out she had some sort of genetic condition that affected blood clotting and would only be a problem with a major injury or surgery. After that the whole family (including extended family) got tested and more had it but didn't know.
 
2014-01-09 04:03:53 PM  
I had a friend back in high school who was hit by a car.  After a day and a half they determined that there was blood actively flowing to less than a third of his brain.  His parents - god, his poor parents - had a long talk with the doctors about not only what his chances of survival were, but what, exactly, constituted "survival" in his case.  And at the end of that talk, they said their goodbyes, ordered the cessation of life support, and signed the papers to donate his organs.

Years later, I heard them explain their reasoning: that even though there was a chance that he would ultimately remain physically (and legally) alive, the damage to his brain was so extensive that the bright, ephemeral thing that made Charles  Charles was already gone.  Their son was not defined by his body, but by his sense of humor, his kindness, his curiosity, his dedication and honesty.  The body could have lived on, but the essence of their son was dead.

He was their only child.

/talking about Charles always kicks up the dust
 
2014-01-09 04:05:44 PM  
I'm starting to see the types who probably "donated" money to keep her alive.

i.imgur.com
 
2014-01-09 04:07:39 PM  

nekom: Just an awful situation.  No winners here.


No way I can "snark" this. All she was and ever will be is gone. Her body doesn't apparently realize that.

sad
 
2014-01-09 04:11:39 PM  

styckx: Sgt.Zim: Ghastly: And by "improving" we mean we've stabilized her condition so we can keep riding this cash potato indefinitely. Ka-ching! Ka-ching!

Or at least until the insurance company pulls the plug.

From another article I've read, they've got a donation fund going, and it's already well ahead.  She'll be kept ... functioning ... for quite some time.

It's sick; our "reverence for life" is way out of control.

Who the fark is donating all this cash to keep a corpse "alive"? That's even more sick.. What the hell is wrong with this country?


Ignorance. That's all. Just ignorance.

Most people don't know a damned thing about medical terminology, much less the difference between coma and brain death.
 
2014-01-09 04:12:36 PM  

styckx: I'm starting to see the types who probably "donated" money to keep her alive.

[i.imgur.com image 647x263]


When I picture this "miracle", I'm picturing a scene from Pet Sematary.
 
2014-01-09 04:16:31 PM  

Girl On Couch: LemSkroob: linda7900: and yes, she hemorrhaged 3 days post-op while her family was visiting. the *rumor* is that the family had brought in some solid food for her, which caused her stitches to tear which led to the hemorrhage (and brain death).

I hope there is security camera footage, and they can arrest the parents for negligence and child endangerment.

Right now the hospital can't rebut or show any evidence like that due to HIPPA constraints.  So this family (and their scumbag attorney) has basically just had an open forum to make up their own reality....  It's really been weird to watch unfold.


I read in an article, not on Fark, that the hospital has basically said "we wish we could show you her charts/records, but HIPAA..."

I can't imagine what it would be like to lose a child, but when one of her attending physicians notes the presence of early rigor, it's time to let go.

I've seen bodies in various states of decomposition (yay internship); I wonder if they'll realize at skin slip/gas bloat stage?

Also, hasn't grandma gone from LPN to RN to CNA and back again in interviews? Why the fark was she suctioning blood in post-op?! Jesus FARK I would've been PISSED if I was the post-op RN!!

/pre-nursing student
 
2014-01-09 04:17:54 PM  

Lachwen: the bright, ephemeral thing that made Charles Charles was already gone. Their son was not defined by his body, but by his sense of humor, his kindness, his curiosity, his dedication and honesty. The body could have lived on, but the essence of their son was dead.


Lachwen: /talking about Charles always kicks up the dust


A lot of dust apparently because some of it got over here.
 
2014-01-09 04:18:29 PM  
This guy too. Unfortunately, his family doesn't have a team of lawyers prepping for a big lawsuit.

i.historyorb.com
 
2014-01-09 04:18:31 PM  
Feh. What do doctors know? Just because they have years of expensive medical education and on-the-job training, that doesn't mean they know more than the rest of us about medicine.

Everything we need to know about medicine we can learn from "ER," "House" and "Gray's Anatomy."
 
2014-01-09 04:20:10 PM  

The Evil Home Brewer: nekom: Just an awful situation.  No winners here.

No way I can "snark" this. All she was and ever will be is gone. Her body doesn't apparently realize that.

sad


Actually, her body does realize it. It'd be "dead dead" if not for the medical interventions keeping her "kinda dead."
 
2014-01-09 04:25:50 PM  

nekom: Mystery Vortex:
Even a doctor or scientis might find themselves unable to let go of a daughter that had her whole life ahead of her.
This family doesn't need ridicule. Let them hold onto her body in that state as long as they need to. It's part of the grieving process and eventually they will be ready to turn off the machines. It's not like the girl is suffering in the meantime.

Well, that's the one saving grace here.  But it's still using a lot of medical resources on a total lost cause that could be better allocated to help someone who isn't quite literally dead.  As for whether this is better or worse for the family, I don't know.  Medically speaking this is absurd.  Emotionally speaking, who knows.


The way I see it is, if they are forced to unplug her, it will further traumatized them requiring therapy and medication, both of which will also cost money and use medical resources. As for the point some others posed about organ donation, her body is too far gone now for the organs to be any good. I believe after brain death occurs the time which organs can be harvested for transplant is only a few hours before slow breakdown begins to occur.
 
2014-01-09 04:26:14 PM  

Lachwen: I had a friend back in high school who was hit by a car.  After a day and a half they determined that there was blood actively flowing to less than a third of his brain.  His parents - god, his poor parents - had a long talk with the doctors about not only what his chances of survival were, but what, exactly, constituted "survival" in his case.  And at the end of that talk, they said their goodbyes, ordered the cessation of life support, and signed the papers to donate his organs.

Years later, I heard them explain their reasoning: that even though there was a chance that he would ultimately remain physically (and legally) alive, the damage to his brain was so extensive that the bright, ephemeral thing that made Charles  Charles was already gone.  Their son was not defined by his body, but by his sense of humor, his kindness, his curiosity, his dedication and honesty.  The body could have lived on, but the essence of their son was dead.

He was their only child.

/talking about Charles always kicks up the dust


An invisible ninja is chopping onions in my vicinity. So very sorry about your friend, but your second paragraph was very well-said and touching.

Couldn't imagine losing either (or both) of my children. You would have a hard time convincing me that life was worth living.

/has a big sad
 
2014-01-09 04:26:53 PM  
What I want to know is..

How can a hospital full of trained professionals shove a feeding tube in a girl that digestive track... For lack of a better term is melting and no longer functioning..
 
2014-01-09 04:31:36 PM  

styckx: What I want to know is..

How can a hospital full of trained professionals shove a feeding tube in a girl that digestive track... For lack of a better term is melting and no longer functioning..


We don't know that it's even a "hospital full of trained professionals". Upthread it was mentioned that one of the interested parties was a former beautician who owns a nursing home.
 
2014-01-09 04:33:09 PM  

Bunny Deville: styckx: What I want to know is..

How can a hospital full of trained professionals shove a feeding tube in a girl that digestive track... For lack of a better term is melting and no longer functioning..

We don't know that it's even a "hospital full of trained professionals". Upthread it was mentioned that one of the interested parties was a former beautician who owns a nursing home.


Oh dear lord... So this really has turned into some weird ghetto hospice situation.
 
2014-01-09 04:33:25 PM  

g4lt: Well, although the kid's a vegetable, I can't help thinking that the hospital that CAUSED THE FARKING BRAIN DEATH shouldn't have any more say in the care decisions, no matter how logical they're being.


She had throat surgery after which her family was told they should not let her talk or eat solid food for a few days.   By the families own admission they spent the next day talking with her and brought her food to eat in the hospital.
 
2014-01-09 04:35:19 PM  
You haters need to stop, Jahi's improving! Why, her grandpa Sawyer's strict liquid diet keeps him as fresh as a rose.

/the hamburger is family
 
2014-01-09 04:37:53 PM  

styckx: What I want to know is..

How can a hospital full of trained professionals shove a feeding tube in a girl that digestive track... For lack of a better term is melting and no longer functioning..


That's just it - Children's Hospital of Oakland (the hospital that performed the surgery and subsequently declared her brain dead) refused to surgical implant both the feeding tube and the tracheostomy. They argued in court that the patient was dead and that it would be unethical for them to demand one of their physicians to perform these procedures.

Well, the family with their scumbag attorney's help flipped out and told the media that the hospital was trying to kill their child.  I'll see if I can find links a bit later but check out the San Jose Mercury News (mercurynews.com) for good, detailed coverage of this whole inane saga....
 
2014-01-09 04:40:08 PM  

BizarreMan: lennavan: styckx: My dad is that way.. He has told me numerous times if he has a heart attack to just let him die. He reasons

"I don't want to be taken on a "five farking thousand dollar" ambulance ride just to have half my face drooping, have to learn to walk again and hooked up to all sorts of shiat.. I love you but love you more for letting me pass as I am now and now a shell of my former self"

No offense (and I actually mean that too) but would you summarize that as he's DNR because he doesn't know better?  I say that because my father in law had a heart attack, had the stent put in and now thanks to some lifestyle changes is healthier than he was before.  Also, half the face drooping is not a heart attack, that's a stroke and the long term symptoms of a stroke are very dependent upon how fast you treat it.  So he's giving up before he even knows whether or not he will be a shell of his former self.

The problem is, you have no way of knowing and preparing for every medical possibility.  If you could, the document would be so long you'd be dead before they could find your wishes in that eventuality or they put you on a machine while they research your wishes, unfortunately, it's easier to keep you on the machine than it is to take it off if you didn't want to be there.

So you just go with a DNR and count it good.


Knows a thing or two about lengthy documents:

i1140.photobucket.com
 
2014-01-09 04:47:44 PM  
Here's some good info about the NY facility run by a former beautician.  Bear in mind, this facility only has an outpatient team set up (still looking to build an inpatient facility) and that it is primarily for brain trauma patients:   http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/05/health/jahi-mcmath-girl-brain-dead/

This the facility's (New Beginnings) website:  http://www.nbli.org/

Info on the founder: http://www.nbli.org/about/

Note that it doesn't look like anybody has any medical training - it's unfortunate that the good work they are probably providing on an outpatient basis for brain trauma patients will be overshadowed by this ridiculous stance on a brain dead corpse and their affiliation with this family and their shyster lawyer....
 
2014-01-09 04:51:19 PM  

styckx: Who the fark is donating all this cash to keep a corpse "alive"?


People who prefer to "feel" rather than "think."
 
2014-01-09 04:51:53 PM  

Girl On Couch: Here's some good info about the NY facility run by a former beautician.  Bear in mind, this facility only has an outpatient team set up (still looking to build an inpatient facility) and that it is primarily for brain trauma patients:   http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/05/health/jahi-mcmath-girl-brain-dead/

This the facility's (New Beginnings) website:  http://www.nbli.org/

Info on the founder: http://www.nbli.org/about/

Note that it doesn't look like anybody has any medical training - it's unfortunate that the good work they are probably providing on an outpatient basis for brain trauma patients will be overshadowed by this ridiculous stance on a brain dead corpse and their affiliation with this family and their shyster lawyer....


Wow.. I didn't know they built snake oil facilities that large.. That place is obviously a racket..
 
2014-01-09 04:52:09 PM  
She got fat and was killed from eating too many burgers.  She developed sleep apnea because of it, so instead of her family changing her eating habits they scheduled her for a tonsillectomy, the removal of part of her soft palette, trimmed her sinuses to "cure" her sleep apnea, then promptly fed her bites of their burgers while she was in the recovery room, breaking the stitches and causing her to bleed out, thus coming full circle back to the irresponsibility of feeding that girl hamburgers way too farking often.

As Butters would say: "OH hamburgers!"

/mmmmmm burgers
 
2014-01-09 04:52:52 PM  

BigNumber12: styckx: Who the fark is donating all this cash to keep a corpse "alive"?

People who prefer to "feel" rather than "think."


i.imgur.com
 
2014-01-09 04:56:12 PM  

walktoanarcade: She got fat and was killed from eating too many burgers.  She developed sleep apnea because of it, so instead of her family changing her eating habits they scheduled her for a tonsillectomy, the removal of part of her soft palette, trimmed her sinuses to "cure" her sleep apnea, then promptly fed her bites of their burgers while she was in the recovery room, breaking the stitches and causing her to bleed out, thus coming full circle back to the irresponsibility of feeding that girl hamburgers way too farking often.

As Butters would say: "OH hamburgers!"

/mmmmmm burgers


Yeah - pretty much this.  Just need to add a dash of delusional injustice and denial of facts....

/family and friends were wearing and distributing "Justice for Jahi" t-shirts like she was freakin' Mandela or something....
 
2014-01-09 04:58:32 PM  
What confuses me is why is it always the people who supposedly believe in a wonderful afterlife who have so much trouble letting a loved one who is obviously past this earth go?
 
2014-01-09 05:00:05 PM  

Girl On Couch: walktoanarcade: She got fat and was killed from eating too many burgers.  She developed sleep apnea because of it, so instead of her family changing her eating habits they scheduled her for a tonsillectomy, the removal of part of her soft palette, trimmed her sinuses to "cure" her sleep apnea, then promptly fed her bites of their burgers while she was in the recovery room, breaking the stitches and causing her to bleed out, thus coming full circle back to the irresponsibility of feeding that girl hamburgers way too farking often.

As Butters would say: "OH hamburgers!"

/mmmmmm burgers

Yeah - pretty much this.  Just need to add a dash of delusional injustice and denial of facts....

/family and friends were wearing and distributing "Justice for Jahi" t-shirts like she was freakin' Mandela or something....


So you think the hospital did enough documenting of the family disobeying hospital orders to protect them in a wrongful death lawsuit?  Seems like the family is not only grieving now.. But dealing with the guilt they probably killed their own kid through ignorance.
 
2014-01-09 05:02:33 PM  

Girl On Couch: Here's some good info about the NY facility run by a former beautician.  Bear in mind, this facility only has an outpatient team set up (still looking to build an inpatient facility) and that it is primarily for brain trauma patients:   http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/05/health/jahi-mcmath-girl-brain-dead/

This the facility's (New Beginnings) website:  http://www.nbli.org/

Info on the founder: http://www.nbli.org/about/

Note that it doesn't look like anybody has any medical training - it's unfortunate that the good work they are probably providing on an outpatient basis for brain trauma patients will be overshadowed by this ridiculous stance on a brain dead corpse and their affiliation with this family and their shyster lawyer....


Does she do silicone injections into peoples butts in hotel rooms too?
 
2014-01-09 05:05:41 PM  

Girl On Couch: walktoanarcade: She got fat and was killed from eating too many burgers.  She developed sleep apnea because of it, so instead of her family changing her eating habits they scheduled her for a tonsillectomy, the removal of part of her soft palette, trimmed her sinuses to "cure" her sleep apnea, then promptly fed her bites of their burgers while she was in the recovery room, breaking the stitches and causing her to bleed out, thus coming full circle back to the irresponsibility of feeding that girl hamburgers way too farking often.

As Butters would say: "OH hamburgers!"

/mmmmmm burgers

Yeah - pretty much this.  Just need to add a dash of delusional injustice and denial of facts....

/family and friends were wearing and distributing "Justice for Jahi" t-shirts like she was freakin' Mandela or something....


Thanks for the back up. This whole story gives me the willies in a lot of ways. Any way I choose to look at it it's unacceptable.    Some of the comments on sites like CBS's and CNN's are rich.

Glad most people have kept their sanity, can't say the same for the idiot judge that allowed this to happen.

Damn, this case also reminds me of Norman farkin Bates. It's gets better and better.
 
2014-01-09 05:06:51 PM  

styckx: Just wait till she finally "die dies" and the family files suit arm and arm with the ACLU


This I gotta hear: How on earth does the ACLU have any interest (or standing) in this case?
 
2014-01-09 05:06:52 PM  
If she stays alive, the hospital could be on the hook for years, paying millions for her maintenance. If she dies, what's a fat black 13 year-old girl worth? One lump sum in the low six figures. Do the McMath.
 
2014-01-09 05:07:01 PM  

xanadian: So, I must've missed the article that explained how a f*#%ing routine operation like a tonsillectomy turned this girl into a vegetable.  Too much blood loss?  Crazy-ass brain-eating infection?  God was at His computer that day?


You've been lied to by the lamestream media. She had a triple tonsil-adenoid-vulveular operation and she is morbidly obese.
 
2014-01-09 05:09:22 PM  

namegoeshere: When I picture this "miracle", I'm picturing a scene from Pet Sematary.


I don't want to be buried in a Pet Sematary, I don't want to live my life again.
 
2014-01-09 05:13:09 PM  
Girl on a couch, you mentioned denial of facts, and it made me wonder, is that family unclear that brain death is NOT coma?

Do they think brain death is slang for coma?  It sure seems a lot of people defending the family's assertion that Jahi can get better think so.

/read somewhere that Jahi's brain is liquid at this stage
 
2014-01-09 05:16:53 PM  
The hospital should pay exactly zero dollars and oodles of common sense to the family.

They need to receive both now. Won't you help? Operators are standing by.
 
2014-01-09 05:18:47 PM  

walktoanarcade: She got fat and was killed from eating too many burgers.  She developed sleep apnea because of it, so instead of her family changing her eating habits they scheduled her for a tonsillectomy, the removal of part of her soft palette, trimmed her sinuses to "cure" her sleep apnea, then promptly fed her bites of their burgers while she was in the recovery room, breaking the stitches and causing her to bleed out, thus coming full circle back to the irresponsibility of feeding that girl hamburgers way too farking often.

As Butters would say: "OH hamburgers!"

/mmmmmm burgers


I've only seen that story on blogs, but if it's true, it would go a long way towards explaining the parent's level of denial. To lose a child by accident is hard enough but if their actions contributed to her death, then that's a level of hell I don't think any parent wants to face.
 
2014-01-09 05:19:18 PM  

walktoanarcade: Girl on a couch, you mentioned denial of facts, and it made me wonder, is that family unclear that brain death is NOT coma?

Do they think brain death is slang for coma?  It sure seems a lot of people defending the family's assertion that Jahi can get better think so.

/read somewhere that Jahi's brain is liquid at this stage


My mom and stepmother are both nurses. They say that a lot of people can't get past the difference between coma and brain death. I don't know whether it's denial, ignorance, WILLFUL ignorance, or what, but uneducated people especially just do not seem to grasp the reality.

What I said upthread about the tongue coming out when they have to suction the lungs? That happened to my stepmother. The patient had been brain dead a month, and had already lost a couple of fingers and toes. The tongue came out when she suctioned him. The family was in the room. My stepmother at that point informed the family that it was time to let go, and they actually listened at that point.
 
2014-01-09 05:20:39 PM  

RussianPooper: Anayalator: Raise your hand if you submitted this story with a better headline.

I hate being this guy, because I hate this guy. My HL wasn't super funny, and this story isn't funny, but my headline was better. I am going to ban myself for a couple of weeks. Maybe my mojo is off.

By the way, the lawyer is a scumbag.

Ha ha, my headline got greenlighted.

BTW, which one was yours?


Know what? I need to retract my tantrum.

Mine was  Hospital to blame if dead girl dies, says scumbag attorneywhich I guess is quite similar
 
2014-01-09 05:21:39 PM  

Deucednuisance: styckx: Just wait till she finally "die dies" and the family files suit arm and arm with the ACLU

This I gotta hear: How on earth does the ACLU have any interest (or standing) in this case?


Brain fart.. Was thinking NAACP and ACLU came out..
 
2014-01-09 05:22:48 PM  

theknuckler_33: I can't believe this happened from a tonsilectomy (or whatever). And that's all I've got to say about that.


It didn't. Bad media reporting. It was apnea surgery and it isn't performed on people her age regularly.
 
2014-01-09 05:24:59 PM  
I've been watching this case from the side lines with mild interest.  The question I have is who is paying to keep this corpse "alive" and what kind of factuality has she been transferred too?  If the family is paying for this out of their own pockets and the corpse isn't taking up valuable bed space in a hospital who gives a shait.  As long as they family pays to keep the machines on as far as I'm concerned they can do so till the corpse turns into goo.  An it will.  Death usually does that to things.

But if they are hoping for a miracle it would have been better for them to put their little snowflake in a vat of liquid nitrogen and pray that science can come up with a cure for brain death.   But then again god could send in tinkerbell to sprinkle her body with magic dust and bring her back to life.   Never can tell, I'm betting the odds are about even in both cases though.
 
2014-01-09 05:26:41 PM  

Lord Apathy: I've been watching this case from the side lines with mild interest.  The question I have is who is paying to keep this corpse "alive" and what kind of factuality has she been transferred too?  If the family is paying for this out of their own pockets and the corpse isn't taking up valuable bed space in a hospital who gives a shait.  As long as they family pays to keep the machines on as far as I'm concerned they can do so till the corpse turns into goo.  An it will.  Death usually does that to things.

But if they are hoping for a miracle it would have been better for them to put their little snowflake in a vat of liquid nitrogen and pray that science can come up with a cure for brain death.   But then again god could send in tinkerbell to sprinkle her body with magic dust and bring her back to life.   Never can tell, I'm betting the odds are about even in both cases though.


The family only raised about 50k.. That's like a day or two worth of care for the shiat she needs.. Maybe..

As far as the rest.. Enjoy your taxes and insurance premiums..
 
2014-01-09 05:28:39 PM  

NutWrench: walktoanarcade: She got fat and was killed from eating too many burgers.  She developed sleep apnea because of it, so instead of her family changing her eating habits they scheduled her for a tonsillectomy, the removal of part of her soft palette, trimmed her sinuses to "cure" her sleep apnea, then promptly fed her bites of their burgers while she was in the recovery room, breaking the stitches and causing her to bleed out, thus coming full circle back to the irresponsibility of feeding that girl hamburgers way too farking often.

As Butters would say: "OH hamburgers!"

/mmmmmm burgers

I've only seen that story on blogs, but if it's true, it would go a long way towards explaining the parent's level of denial. To lose a child by accident is hard enough but if their actions contributed to her death, then that's a level of hell I don't think any parent wants to face.


Yes true it's up in the air if that actually went down, though from what I read, it's always being attributed to the mother and grandmother.  Fair enough.

Maybe that's why they're so mentally broken concerning her death..because they know they caused it.  It's harsh, but so is the story to my ears and eyes.   You know what I mean?    Even during Halloween time this shiat would be pushing the boundaries of good taste and universal human decency.

Ugh.
 
2014-01-09 05:30:55 PM  
IT all makes me wonder how much of the family's stubbornness is the result of their inability to come to terms with everything actually being their fault via improper post-op behavior.
 
2014-01-09 05:37:45 PM  

Bunny Deville: walktoanarcade: Girl on a couch, you mentioned denial of facts, and it made me wonder, is that family unclear that brain death is NOT coma?

Do they think brain death is slang for coma?  It sure seems a lot of people defending the family's assertion that Jahi can get better think so.

/read somewhere that Jahi's brain is liquid at this stage

My mom and stepmother are both nurses. They say that a lot of people can't get past the difference between coma and brain death. I don't know whether it's denial, ignorance, WILLFUL ignorance, or what, but uneducated people especially just do not seem to grasp the reality.

What I said upthread about the tongue coming out when they have to suction the lungs? That happened to my stepmother. The patient had been brain dead a month, and had already lost a couple of fingers and toes. The tongue came out when she suctioned him. The family was in the room. My stepmother at that point informed the family that it was time to let go, and they actually listened at that point.


Dear God...

Some people really are a river in Egypt. Maybe it's time for nurses like your step-mom to let people know before that stage it could come to that gruesome end, although how to broach it, search me.
 
2014-01-09 05:38:50 PM  

Bunny Deville: walktoanarcade: Girl on a couch, you mentioned denial of facts, and it made me wonder, is that family unclear that brain death is NOT coma?

Do they think brain death is slang for coma?  It sure seems a lot of people defending the family's assertion that Jahi can get better think so.

/read somewhere that Jahi's brain is liquid at this stage

My mom and stepmother are both nurses. They say that a lot of people can't get past the difference between coma and brain death. I don't know whether it's denial, ignorance, WILLFUL ignorance, or what, but uneducated people especially just do not seem to grasp the reality.

What I said upthread about the tongue coming out when they have to suction the lungs? That happened to my stepmother. The patient had been brain dead a month, and had already lost a couple of fingers and toes. The tongue came out when she suctioned him. The family was in the room. My stepmother at that point informed the family that it was time to let go, and they actually listened at that point.


This. This is what will have to happen for the family to come to terms to put her body to rest. After reading the doctor's statement, at the rate her body is deteriorating, that won't take a whole lot longer.
 
2014-01-09 05:43:38 PM  

walktoanarcade: Bunny Deville: walktoanarcade: Girl on a couch, you mentioned denial of facts, and it made me wonder, is that family unclear that brain death is NOT coma?

Do they think brain death is slang for coma?  It sure seems a lot of people defending the family's assertion that Jahi can get better think so.

/read somewhere that Jahi's brain is liquid at this stage

My mom and stepmother are both nurses. They say that a lot of people can't get past the difference between coma and brain death. I don't know whether it's denial, ignorance, WILLFUL ignorance, or what, but uneducated people especially just do not seem to grasp the reality.

What I said upthread about the tongue coming out when they have to suction the lungs? That happened to my stepmother. The patient had been brain dead a month, and had already lost a couple of fingers and toes. The tongue came out when she suctioned him. The family was in the room. My stepmother at that point informed the family that it was time to let go, and they actually listened at that point.

Dear God...

Some people really are a river in Egypt. Maybe it's time for nurses like your step-mom to let people know before that stage it could come to that gruesome end, although how to broach it, search me.


Oh, she tried. Believe you me, she tried. At this stage the body has already lost a couple of digits due to lack of blood flow. People, especially uneducated people, just will not listen sometimes. It's awful. No matter how much you reason with people, if the heart is still beating, they believe that the loved one will just wake up one day and be fine. When the tongue thing happened, that's when my stepmom stopped trying to be nice to this family and let them know that they weren't doing anyone any favors by their denial.
 
2014-01-09 05:52:04 PM  
Bunny Deville:

Oh, she tried. Believe you me, she tried. At this stage the body has already lost a couple of digits due to lack of blood flow. People, especially uneducated people, just will not listen sometimes. It's awful. No matter how much you reason with people, if the heart is still beating, they believe that the loved one will just wake up one day and be fine. When the tongue thing happened, that's when my stepmom stopped trying to be nice to this family and let them know that they weren't doing anyone any favors by their denial.

Sounds like damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The family in question keeps bad-mouthing Children's Hospital as if they're boogeymen who ghoulishly wished to "pull the plug" on their "viable" daughter when in fact they are the ghouls. I realize it's impolite, but why didn't a doctor yell at their attorney that she's never, ever waking up because it's literally impossible for a dead brain to be self-aware.   And if such took place....how can we have come to this result?  Too weird.
 
2014-01-09 05:55:53 PM  
I keep wondering if the hospital social workers dropped the ball somehow.
 
2014-01-09 05:56:17 PM  

nekom: Just an awful situation.  No winners here.


Tell that to the accountants at the facility where she's being kept.
 
2014-01-09 06:06:15 PM  

Mystery Vortex: nekom: Bob Falfa:
No. Her parents just can't let her go.
Very sad.

It is, but I'm not in any position to pass judgment, and god help me I don't ever want to be in such a position.  Grief can lead to irrational behavior.  Every scientific and medical opinion is that her brain is goo, she's already dead, not even the slightest chance of a recovery.  The family aren't doctors or scientists, all they hear is "Well, she's in bad shape, but you never know!"

It's just a shiatty situation all around.

Even a doctor or scientis might find themselves unable to let go of a daughter that had her whole life ahead of her.
This family doesn't need ridicule. Let them hold onto her body in that state as long as they need to. It's part of the grieving process and eventually they will be ready to turn off the machines. It's not like the girl is suffering in the meantime.


They have already cost the hospital tens of thousands of dollars.
 
2014-01-09 06:08:21 PM  

BizarreMan: I believe I read it somewhere that her heart and lungs are still working without medical intervention due to the autonomic responses in those organs. But her brain is flat line. She is on vents to assist breathing, and what's keeping her alive really is the feeding tubes.


If you read that it is wrong.  When her life support is removed, everything stops.  3 different doctors have confirmed this.   And she is brain dead.  The feeding tubes are doing nothing, and she can't breath on her own.  What don't you people understand about the word "dead"?  She is not "pining for the fjords".  She is dead.  As John Cleese said:

He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!
 
2014-01-09 06:13:42 PM  

thatboyoverthere: Also fark the hospital. "We accidentally killed your daughter so we're going to pull the plug on her LOL!"
/I feel for the family. Personally I would pull the plug but it's up to them.
//My mother says they would have pulled the plug eventually but the hospital decided now. So the family is never going to pull the plug just out of sheer defiance.
/// Also fark the hospital.


Save your fark the hospital.  There are reports that, although the child was on nothing by mouth protocol post-op, her family stuffed her gaping maw with cheeseburgers, thus causing the bleeding.  And when she started bleeding, the family tried to suction it themselves instead of calling a nurse.  Because, you know, the mom watched Gray's Anatomy and can do all the medical shiat, and God would guide her hands.

 Blame where blame is due.
 
2014-01-09 06:17:59 PM  

Bunny Deville: walktoanarcade:
Dear God...

Some people really are a river in Egypt. Maybe it's time for nurses like your step-mom to let people know before that stage it could come to that gruesome end, although how to broach it, search me.

Oh, she tried. Believe you me, she tried. At this stage the body has already lost a couple of digits due to lack of blood flow. People, especially uneducated people, just will not listen sometimes. It's awful. No matter how much you reason with people, if the heart is still beating, they believe that the loved one will just wake up one day and be fine. When the tongue thing happened, that's when my stepmom stopped trying to be nice to this family and let them know that they weren't doing anyone any favors by their denial.


Only on Fark could I ask this question: Did they just sort of... fall off? Or were they surgically removed because of rot?
 
2014-01-09 06:18:12 PM  

walktoanarcade: Girl on a couch, you mentioned denial of facts, and it made me wonder, is that family unclear that brain death is NOT coma?

Do they think brain death is slang for coma?  It sure seems a lot of people defending the family's assertion that Jahi can get better think so.

/read somewhere that Jahi's brain is liquid at this stage


Maybe - but they were told repeatedly and in very simple words that their daughter was dead by several doctors.  One of them even used the term dead repeatedly to try to get it through to them and was bashed in the media by the family as being an uncaring monster.

/css: when my father in law passed I had a hospital worker (think it was the RN) check in and say "oh, he's long dead" - it seemed a little odd at the time but now I can see why she used those terms: to make it perfectly clear to the family that he was dead. Period. End of Story.
 
2014-01-09 06:18:20 PM  
I'd love to know the source for the hamburger and suction stuff. I only see it on blogs, not more credible sites.. I'm not calling anyone liars but it's hard to talk about certain "facts" when your source is wordpress
 
2014-01-09 06:22:33 PM  

Rodeodoc: BizarreMan: I believe I read it somewhere that her heart and lungs are still working without medical intervention due to the autonomic responses in those organs. But her brain is flat line. She is on vents to assist breathing, and what's keeping her alive really is the feeding tubes.

If you read that it is wrong.  When her life support is removed, everything stops.  3 different doctors have confirmed this.   And she is brain dead.  The feeding tubes are doing nothing, and she can't breath on her own.  What don't you people understand about the word "dead"?  She is not "pining for the fjords".  She is dead.  As John Cleese said:

He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!


About this: Her bowels are basically dead, no activity except for some of the bowel itself sloughing off and being expelled, right? So if they start dumping liquid nutrition in there, isn't it just going to stay pooled up in her stomach until it pops like the salamander I overfed when I was eight?

I officially hate/love a little this story now because it has made my morbid curiosity come out to play in an environment where that's not necessarily a bad thing.
 
2014-01-09 06:25:19 PM  
Has the family tried leaches yet?

Cuz they might help. You know, to suck the evil out of the poor girl's blood.
 
2014-01-09 06:27:13 PM  
Also, fark the new secret hospital that is playing along with this charade.
 
2014-01-09 06:27:22 PM  
Rodeodoc:
Save your fark the hospital.  There are reports that, although the child was on nothing by mouth protocol post-op, her family stuffed her gaping maw with cheeseburgers, thus causing the bleeding.  And when she started bleeding, the family tried to suction it themselves instead of calling a nurse.  Because, you know, the mom watched Gray's Anatomy and can do all the medical shiat, and God would guide her hands.

 Blame where blame is due.


We don't know that for a fact.  Though it's certainly plausible that eating when you aren't supposed to after such a surgery may have been a powerfully bad idea, and may have been a contributing factor or even the root cause of her death.  That will come out in time.

If you want to sling hate around now, I'd say it's best directed at anyone who is "selling" the family on the notion that there's any chance whatsoever of recovery.  Those are true ghouls there.  A proper medical professional would say "Look, I'm really sorry but there's nothing more we can do.  She's gone."  Anything else, even "well if we care for her, she might recover, but it's a long shot." is inappropriate given the circumstances.  There is ZERO chance here.
 
2014-01-09 06:27:43 PM  

Girl On Couch: walktoanarcade: Girl on a couch, you mentioned denial of facts, and it made me wonder, is that family unclear that brain death is NOT coma?

Do they think brain death is slang for coma?  It sure seems a lot of people defending the family's assertion that Jahi can get better think so.

/read somewhere that Jahi's brain is liquid at this stage

Maybe - but they were told repeatedly and in very simple words that their daughter was dead by several doctors.  One of them even used the term dead repeatedly to try to get it through to them and was bashed in the media by the family as being an uncaring monster.

/css: when my father in law passed I had a hospital worker (think it was the RN) check in and say "oh, he's long dead" - it seemed a little odd at the time but now I can see why she used those terms: to make it perfectly clear to the family that he was dead. Period. End of Story.


Game over? No more quarters? It's closing time? The owner is calling security??


/this thread made me remember the lyrics to "Surfing Dead"
 
2014-01-09 06:29:39 PM  

Rodeodoc: As John Cleese said:

He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!


The next person who dies in my extended family... THIS is how I want to be told.
 
2014-01-09 06:30:08 PM  

derpy: Also, fark the new secret hospital that is playing along with this charade.


You mean the family's basement and or darkened laundry room?
 
2014-01-09 06:31:57 PM  
i1105.photobucket.com
 
2014-01-09 06:34:58 PM  
Lots on here about the parents getting $bazillions off a  law suit.  Can a CA farker confirm that California law caps malpractice awards at $250,000?  If that's the case, I'm thinking that the girl's stay in the new facility will suck that up in a month or so.
 
2014-01-09 06:36:37 PM  

walktoanarcade: derpy: Also, fark the new secret hospital that is playing along with this charade.

You mean the family's basement and or darkened laundry room?


LOL - rumor (I have found no proof or citation) is that they've actually taken her to the family home because no reputable medical facility will take her.  Gotta be fun for her siblings...

"Quit poking your dead sister with a stick - she's gonna leak again!"
 
2014-01-09 06:37:52 PM  

Rodeodoc: Lots on here about the parents getting $bazillions off a  law suit.  Can a CA farker confirm that California law caps malpractice awards at $250,000?  If that's the case, I'm thinking that the girl's stay in the new facility will suck that up in a month or so.


That's what's actually at the crux of this whole thing: it's capped at $250k for a dead patient; but not for a patient who is still "alive" - enter the scummy attorney.....
 
2014-01-09 06:39:21 PM  

Lachwen: I had a friend back in high school who was hit by a car.  After a day and a half they determined that there was blood actively flowing to less than a third of his brain.  His parents - god, his poor parents - had a long talk with the doctors about not only what his chances of survival were, but what, exactly, constituted "survival" in his case.  And at the end of that talk, they said their goodbyes, ordered the cessation of life support, and signed the papers to donate his organs.

Years later, I heard them explain their reasoning: that even though there was a chance that he would ultimately remain physically (and legally) alive, the damage to his brain was so extensive that the bright, ephemeral thing that made Charles  Charles was already gone.  Their son was not defined by his body, but by his sense of humor, his kindness, his curiosity, his dedication and honesty.  The body could have lived on, but the essence of their son was dead.

He was their only child.

/talking about Charles always kicks up the dust


Geez, you could've been talking about my sister. Same. Exact. Thing.

Every time the doctor came back in the waiting room, the prognosis got worse. "She could recover, but she'll need lots of physical therapy." "She could recover, but she'll need a lot of help doing things like eating and speaking." "We don't think she'll recover and suggest taking her off life support."

Fark, why did I read this damned thread?
 
2014-01-09 06:39:54 PM  

Girl On Couch: walktoanarcade: derpy: Also, fark the new secret hospital that is playing along with this charade.

You mean the family's basement and or darkened laundry room?

LOL - rumor (I have found no proof or citation) is that they've actually taken her to the family home because no reputable medical facility will take her.  Gotta be fun for her siblings...

"Quit poking your dead sister with a stick - she's gonna leak again!"


I should not have laughed at that

/which means I did
 
2014-01-09 06:44:39 PM  

styckx: Oh dear lord... So this really has turned into some weird ghetto hospice situation.


What I'm wondering is where they even found a qualified doctor who would agree to operate on the corpse, and insert breathing/feeding tubes.  Besides it being medically retarded, when she actually "die dies" the parasite family will probably sue this doctor and facility too.
Also where does this doctor get the medical equipment to do these procedures?  From what I understand the facility does not have them, as they dont normally deal with this
 
2014-01-09 06:44:43 PM  
and when she does die from being removed from support, expect the conservatives to come in all "SEE DEAHT PANLES!11!!"
 
2014-01-09 06:48:46 PM  

lennavan: Lachwen: the bright, ephemeral thing that made Charles Charles was already gone. Their son was not defined by his body, but by his sense of humor, his kindness, his curiosity, his dedication and honesty. The body could have lived on, but the essence of their son was dead.

Lachwen: /talking about Charles always kicks up the dust

A lot of dust apparently because some of it got over here.


Dang, it's a very dusty day.
 
2014-01-09 06:58:45 PM  

Rodeodoc: Lots on here about the parents getting $bazillions off a  law suit.  Can a CA farker confirm that California law caps malpractice awards at $250,000?  If that's the case, I'm thinking that the girl's stay in the new facility will suck that up in a month or so.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Injury_Compensation_Reform_Act

The $250k is for non-economic damages.

The family's attorney, Christopher Dolan, is active in efforts to change MICRA, arguing that the $250k cap is unconstitutional.

http://www.protectconsumerjustice.org/how-the-micra-cap-violates-cal if ornians-rights-to-equal-protection-jury-trial-and-due-process.html

The emotional outcry and publicity this case is generating is a plus for his cause.
 
2014-01-09 07:00:54 PM  
If you read the Dr's report of her before she left the hospital it's pretty nasty. Seems she passed some rotting intestinal lining out of her rectum. Her skin is starting to rot underneath. And her brain is liquifying from lack of autonomic functions because her brain stem no longer works. Eventually her lungs will rot and the machine won't even help.her heart beat. So yep, she's dead alright.
 
2014-01-09 07:04:19 PM  

namegoeshere: Bunny Deville: walktoanarcade:
Dear God...

Some people really are a river in Egypt. Maybe it's time for nurses like your step-mom to let people know before that stage it could come to that gruesome end, although how to broach it, search me.

Oh, she tried. Believe you me, she tried. At this stage the body has already lost a couple of digits due to lack of blood flow. People, especially uneducated people, just will not listen sometimes. It's awful. No matter how much you reason with people, if the heart is still beating, they believe that the loved one will just wake up one day and be fine. When the tongue thing happened, that's when my stepmom stopped trying to be nice to this family and let them know that they weren't doing anyone any favors by their denial.

Only on Fark could I ask this question: Did they just sort of... fall off? Or were they surgically removed because of rot?


Well, they weren't surgically removed.
 
2014-01-09 07:05:08 PM  

Dallymo: Rodeodoc: Lots on here about the parents getting $bazillions off a  law suit.  Can a CA farker confirm that California law caps malpractice awards at $250,000?  If that's the case, I'm thinking that the girl's stay in the new facility will suck that up in a month or so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Injury_Compensation_Reform_Act

The $250k is for non-economic damages.

The family's attorney, Christopher Dolan, is active in efforts to change MICRA, arguing that the $250k cap is unconstitutional.

http://www.protectconsumerjustice.org/how-the-micra-cap-violates-cal if ornians-rights-to-equal-protection-jury-trial-and-due-process.html

The emotional outcry and publicity this case is generating is a plus for his cause.



Of course he wants the cap removed; he's an ambulance chasing personal-injury lawyer

And that's not exaggeration, he specifically targets injury cases in his TV ads.
 
2014-01-09 07:08:20 PM  

nipner: styckx: Oh dear lord... So this really has turned into some weird ghetto hospice situation.

What I'm wondering is where they even found a qualified doctor who would agree to operate on the corpse, and insert breathing/feeding tubes.  Besides it being medically retarded, when she actually "die dies" the parasite family will probably sue this doctor and facility too.
Also where does this doctor get the medical equipment to do these procedures?  From what I understand the facility does not have them, as they dont normally deal with this


That's what I want to know.. Even if she's living in a basement.. Who the fark did the feeding and breathing tube procedure? This isn't shiat you just run down to CVS and pick up a DIY dead girl feeding kit.  Someone, presumably with a license decided to cash that paycheck and perform it.
 
2014-01-09 07:10:03 PM  

Bunny Deville: namegoeshere: Bunny Deville: walktoanarcade:
Dear God...

Some people really are a river in Egypt. Maybe it's time for nurses like your step-mom to let people know before that stage it could come to that gruesome end, although how to broach it, search me.

Oh, she tried. Believe you me, she tried. At this stage the body has already lost a couple of digits due to lack of blood flow. People, especially uneducated people, just will not listen sometimes. It's awful. No matter how much you reason with people, if the heart is still beating, they believe that the loved one will just wake up one day and be fine. When the tongue thing happened, that's when my stepmom stopped trying to be nice to this family and let them know that they weren't doing anyone any favors by their denial.

Only on Fark could I ask this question: Did they just sort of... fall off? Or were they surgically removed because of rot?

Well, they weren't surgically removed.


*hork*

There's denial, and there's overlooking digits falling off denial.
 
2014-01-09 07:16:18 PM  
Oh, can someone get the mods to not close threads too early? I know it's cute when a thread gets to 69, but someone asked something that I know the answer to and have a link that can shed some light onto the subject of missing Star Wars footage.  (Boba Fett thread)
 
2014-01-09 07:18:12 PM  
You'll never lose money exploiting the religious, gambling-addicted, or grief-stricken.

/not a complete list
 
2014-01-09 07:20:50 PM  
If no one has posted this already, interesting blog from a trauma surgeon who has weighed in on the situation.  Interesting but definitely not safe for lunch medical stuff (text only, no NSFL/W pics or anything)

http://docbastard.blogspot.com/
 
2014-01-09 07:35:31 PM  

RoyFokker'sGhost: Dallymo: Rodeodoc: Lots on here about the parents getting $bazillions off a  law suit.  Can a CA farker confirm that California law caps malpractice awards at $250,000?  If that's the case, I'm thinking that the girl's stay in the new facility will suck that up in a month or so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Injury_Compensation_Reform_Act

The $250k is for non-economic damages.

The family's attorney, Christopher Dolan, is active in efforts to change MICRA, arguing that the $250k cap is unconstitutional.

http://www.protectconsumerjustice.org/how-the-micra-cap-violates-cal if ornians-rights-to-equal-protection-jury-trial-and-due-process.html

The emotional outcry and publicity this case is generating is a plus for his cause.


Of course he wants the cap removed; he's an ambulance chasing personal-injury lawyer

And that's not exaggeration, he specifically targets injury cases in his TV ads.


Yes--I think there's an idea, especially among some who are on the side of keeping the child on the vent "because she might wake up," that Dolan is purely a white knight for the girl and her family.  The uncle posted on Instagram:

I will be forever grateful for this man. He took my call in the middle of the night and listened to everything I had to say and decided to help me for FREE!!! There are not many lawyers in the world that would take a case where there is no money involved, but this man has a huge heart and I will always love him for what he has done for my family. I hear people questioning his ethics and it is ridiculous. This man did what no other lawyer would and I can't thank him enough. Christopher B. Dolan you are my brother & my friend. Welcome to the family, but you were already family when agreed to help me that night
 http://instagram.com/p/i9d1kUopsg/#


He may not be receiving a fee from the family, but it's hard to believe that he'd take this case if it didn't advance his cause against MICRA in general, "huge heart" or no.
 
2014-01-09 07:39:36 PM  
It's only a wafer thin feeding tube.
 
2014-01-09 07:39:42 PM  

Dallymo: RoyFokker'sGhost: Dallymo: Rodeodoc: Lots on here about the parents getting $bazillions off a  law suit.  Can a CA farker confirm that California law caps malpractice awards at $250,000?  If that's the case, I'm thinking that the girl's stay in the new facility will suck that up in a month or so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Injury_Compensation_Reform_Act

The $250k is for non-economic damages.

The family's attorney, Christopher Dolan, is active in efforts to change MICRA, arguing that the $250k cap is unconstitutional.

http://www.protectconsumerjustice.org/how-the-micra-cap-violates-cal if ornians-rights-to-equal-protection-jury-trial-and-due-process.html

The emotional outcry and publicity this case is generating is a plus for his cause.


Of course he wants the cap removed; he's an ambulance chasing personal-injury lawyer

And that's not exaggeration, he specifically targets injury cases in his TV ads.

Yes--I think there's an idea, especially among some who are on the side of keeping the child on the vent "because she might wake up," that Dolan is purely a white knight for the girl and her family.  The uncle posted on Instagram:

I will be forever grateful for this man. He took my call in the middle of the night and listened to everything I had to say and decided to help me for FREE!!! There are not many lawyers in the world that would take a case where there is no money involved, but this man has a huge heart and I will always love him for what he has done for my family. I hear people questioning his ethics and it is ridiculous. This man did what no other lawyer would and I can't thank him enough. Christopher B. Dolan you are my brother & my friend. Welcome to the family, but you were already family when agreed to help me that night
 http://instagram.com/p/i9d1kUopsg/#


He may not be receiving a fee from the family, but it's hard to believe that he'd take this case if it didn't advance his cause against MICRA in general, "huge heart" or no.


DAFUQ IS THAT?

i.imgur.com

That doesn't strike me as a grieving father and deeply concerned lawyer.. That's the kind of shot two homies take with each other.
 
2014-01-09 07:41:04 PM  
Her heart and lungs are "functioning," but she still needs a ventilator? Farking morons. Taxpayers better not be funding this.
 
2014-01-09 07:45:08 PM  

styckx: That doesn't strike me as a grieving father and deeply concerned lawyer.. That's the kind of shot two homies take with each other.


Uncle; he took the lead in making appearances on behalf of the family.  Quite outspoken.
 
2014-01-09 07:46:06 PM  

Dallymo: styckx: That doesn't strike me as a grieving father and deeply concerned lawyer.. That's the kind of shot two homies take with each other.

Uncle; he took the lead in making appearances on behalf of the family.  Quite outspoken.


Jesus christ.. The layers are derp I keep finding out just get thicker..  I'm trying my hardest not to hate the family and realize they are dealing with a dead daughter but they're not helping at all.
 
2014-01-09 07:47:26 PM  

Loaded Six String: It's only a wafer thin feeding tube.


Snert.....nice.
 
2014-01-09 07:48:48 PM  

Loaded Six String: It's only a wafer thin feeding tube.


Heh, and they will need a bucket or three.
 
2014-01-09 07:48:54 PM  

Girl On Couch: ok - I have actually been following this (happening in my neck of the woods) and a couple of things:

1. this was NOT a "routine operation" - as Dallymo said, she had an adenotonsillectomy, uvulopalatopharyngoplasty and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates to deal with her sleep apnea (the family has never said why they didn't try to treat this with weight loss or other non-surgical procedures, like the use of a CPAP mask - an aggressive operation like this on a child is usually the last resort)

2. The family has been told repeatedly by 6 different doctors that she is brain dead (and that one does not "recover" from brain death)

3. The family's lawyer has repeatedly lied about the existence of facilities willing to accept and care for a corpse - the last one he claimed to express interest was out of NY run by a former beautician who claims this corpse just needs time to heal.

4. Post op - this family was in the room encouraging the girl to speak, eat and drink (specifically forbidden by the doctors as it might rupture her delicate stitches); additionally the grandmother admits suctioning blood out of the girl's mouth in post op but claimed it was ok - she knew what she was doing because she's a nurse (she's an LVN and has repeatedly exaggerated her licensing and training in the local media)

5. The family created a go fund me page for transport and treatment of this corpse (last I read they had over $50k in donations)

6. At least one doctor has testified that due to the brain inactivity (both brain and brain stem) the corpse is no longer regulating food, etc. (no reason it needs a feeding tube) and that the inside of the bowels are starting to slough off through stools.

Bottom line - this family is beyond grieving - they are parasitic scum who want to raise money for "the care" of their dead kid - they are playing on right to lifer's ignorance.  I just wonder how long they'll keep this charade up as the corpse is already starting to decay (under the skin and in the vital organs) and should be smelling funny soon. And really, you can buy a lot of neat stuff with $50k...

I know I went a little overboard but the news media just isn't reporting this properly (sorry)


Bookmark for your comment just in case somebody wants to argue with me and call me a callous douchebag for saying that they should pull the plug. Thanks.
 
2014-01-09 07:49:03 PM  

baufan2005: If you read the Dr's report of her before she left the hospital it's pretty nasty. Seems she passed some rotting intestinal lining out of her rectum. Her skin is starting to rot underneath. And her brain is liquifying from lack of autonomic functions because her brain stem no longer works. Eventually her lungs will rot and the machine won't even help.her heart beat. So yep, she's dead alright.


I wonder how long it will be before the parents or their lawyer start claiming that the girl "died" because the original hospital didn't want to keep her hooked up to machines after brain death.
 
2014-01-09 07:55:04 PM  

styckx: Dallymo: RoyFokker'sGhost: Dallymo: Rodeodoc: Lots on here about the parents getting $bazillions off a  law suit.  Can a CA farker confirm that California law caps malpractice awards at $250,000?  If that's the case, I'm thinking that the girl's stay in the new facility will suck that up in a month or so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Injury_Compensation_Reform_Act

The $250k is for non-economic damages.

The family's attorney, Christopher Dolan, is active in efforts to change MICRA, arguing that the $250k cap is unconstitutional.

http://www.protectconsumerjustice.org/how-the-micra-cap-violates-cal if ornians-rights-to-equal-protection-jury-trial-and-due-process.html

The emotional outcry and publicity this case is generating is a plus for his cause.


Of course he wants the cap removed; he's an ambulance chasing personal-injury lawyer

And that's not exaggeration, he specifically targets injury cases in his TV ads.

Yes--I think there's an idea, especially among some who are on the side of keeping the child on the vent "because she might wake up," that Dolan is purely a white knight for the girl and her family.  The uncle posted on Instagram:

I will be forever grateful for this man. He took my call in the middle of the night and listened to everything I had to say and decided to help me for FREE!!! There are not many lawyers in the world that would take a case where there is no money involved, but this man has a huge heart and I will always love him for what he has done for my family. I hear people questioning his ethics and it is ridiculous. This man did what no other lawyer would and I can't thank him enough. Christopher B. Dolan you are my brother & my friend. Welcome to the family, but you were already family when agreed to help me that night
 http://instagram.com/p/i9d1kUopsg/#


He may not be receiving a fee from the family, but it's hard to believe that he'd take this case if it didn't advance his cause against MICRA in general, "huge heart" or no. ...



Say what you want about Bill Pullman, but his leadership helped repel the alien menace in '96.

"Today!...Is our Inde-Payday!"
 
2014-01-09 08:01:44 PM  
So I discussed this with the husband, and he had a more sinister take on this case.

If the family DID feed Jahi, and if the grandmother DID suction her when she bled, then they could be held accountable for this if the hospital has proof... and if Jahi is, in fact, dead... well, it's in their best interests to keep that heart beating as long as humanly possible.

If we do have souls, I hope hers is free.
 
2014-01-09 08:02:02 PM  

Daedalus27: nekom: Just an awful situation.  No winners here.


Actually there may be winners if the family would face reality and let her go.  There have to be dozens of sick children who could use her perfectly good organs and tissues out there who could benefit if they would accept she can't come back and give consent to donate her organs.  That way their daughter could live on in some capacity or at least more so than having a machine work her remains for a few weeks or months until infection or something else finally destroys her lungs and heart.  I know it is tough, but her family is spitting in the faces of those families who actually have a chance of saving their children from something curable.  I just hope that Jahi's family changes their mind before its too late to have some benefit (assuming we haven't already reached that point that the organs have degraded to such an extent as to be non-viable).


I agree with this. The whole situation is f*cked up. I can understand the parents' grief but they really need to face reality. Who would want their child kept alive with no functioning brain? If she were to be the recipient of a MIRACLE she will be hopelessly challenged her entire life. Love=quality of life?
I wouldn't put my kids in that position but I'm also not there in the mix.
 
2014-01-09 08:05:48 PM  
Maybe with a transplant she could recover..

static.seekingalpha.com
 
2014-01-09 08:05:51 PM  

Bunny Deville: So I discussed this with the husband, and he had a more sinister take on this case.

If the family DID feed Jahi, and if the grandmother DID suction her when she bled, then they could be held accountable for this if the hospital has proof... and if Jahi is, in fact, dead... well, it's in their best interests to keep that heart beating as long as humanly possible.

If we do have souls, I hope hers is free.


She's got a death certificate. If they were to be held liable, it could legally happen at any time...right?

I don't pretend to know.
 
2014-01-09 08:09:06 PM  

Mitch Taylor's Bro: More recently, they cared for my great-aunt, who had bad alzheimer's. Eventually, they had to put her in a convalescent home because they couldn't care for her on their own. That gave them almost three years of insight into what goes on in places like that. They still visit and bring flowers occasionally, even though my great aunt died almost 15 years ago. But they decided that if they were ever in a situation where they might be reduced to a mere shell of their former selves (more than just the ravages of time, mind you), that they'd rather go with dignity than attempt an expensive procedure that, at best, would greatly reduce their quality of life.

They are in their mid-80's and in very good shape for their age. But they feel that they've led good lives and don't want to spend the last bits of it hooked up to machines or completely bed-ridden if some medical procedure can only bring them part-way back to health. I am also their only surviving child, and I think they really don't want to be a burden on me.


I think my mother had a good standard--do what you can so long as the result is a reasonable chance she's going home.  If she's not going home don't try.
 
2014-01-09 08:14:05 PM  

walktoanarcade: Bunny Deville:

Oh, she tried. Believe you me, she tried. At this stage the body has already lost a couple of digits due to lack of blood flow. People, especially uneducated people, just will not listen sometimes. It's awful. No matter how much you reason with people, if the heart is still beating, they believe that the loved one will just wake up one day and be fine. When the tongue thing happened, that's when my stepmom stopped trying to be nice to this family and let them know that they weren't doing anyone any favors by their denial.

Sounds like damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The family in question keeps bad-mouthing Children's Hospital as if they're boogeymen who ghoulishly wished to "pull the plug" on their "viable" daughter when in fact they are the ghouls. I realize it's impolite, but why didn't a doctor yell at their attorney that she's never, ever waking up because it's literally impossible for a dead brain to be self-aware.   And if such took place....how can we have come to this result?  Too weird.


The hospital director did.  They played excerpts on the radio here where he was yelling at the lawyer that he was misleading the public and misleading the family.  Only in America can a lawyer overrule 3 doctors over whether or not a person is dead.
 
2014-01-09 08:14:44 PM  

Bunny Deville: So I discussed this with the husband, and he had a more sinister take on this case.

If the family DID feed Jahi, and if the grandmother DID suction her when she bled, then they could be held accountable for this if the hospital has proof... and if Jahi is, in fact, dead... well, it's in their best interests to keep that heart beating as long as humanly possible.

If we do have souls, I hope hers is free.


Nah.. 6 doctors said she's dead already..  Heart beating or not.. As far as legality goes she's the same now wherever she's at as if she was 6ft deep in a cemetery.

Dead is dead... Her heart stopping changes nothing as far as legalities go.
 
2014-01-09 08:20:52 PM  

Karmic: walktoanarcade: Bunny Deville:

Oh, she tried. Believe you me, she tried. At this stage the body has already lost a couple of digits due to lack of blood flow. People, especially uneducated people, just will not listen sometimes. It's awful. No matter how much you reason with people, if the heart is still beating, they believe that the loved one will just wake up one day and be fine. When the tongue thing happened, that's when my stepmom stopped trying to be nice to this family and let them know that they weren't doing anyone any favors by their denial.

Sounds like damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The family in question keeps bad-mouthing Children's Hospital as if they're boogeymen who ghoulishly wished to "pull the plug" on their "viable" daughter when in fact they are the ghouls. I realize it's impolite, but why didn't a doctor yell at their attorney that she's never, ever waking up because it's literally impossible for a dead brain to be self-aware.   And if such took place....how can we have come to this result?  Too weird.

The hospital director did.  They played excerpts on the radio here where he was yelling at the lawyer that he was misleading the public and misleading the family.  Only in America can a lawyer overrule 3 doctors over whether or not a person is dead.


Got a link? I'd love to hear some.

Psst, hey, do you know why lawyers don't go to the beach?


The cats keep burying them.
 
2014-01-09 08:23:01 PM  
Both Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman have survived brain death. There is hope.
 
2014-01-09 08:27:58 PM  

walktoanarcade: Bunny Deville: So I discussed this with the husband, and he had a more sinister take on this case.

If the family DID feed Jahi, and if the grandmother DID suction her when she bled, then they could be held accountable for this if the hospital has proof... and if Jahi is, in fact, dead... well, it's in their best interests to keep that heart beating as long as humanly possible.

If we do have souls, I hope hers is free.

She's got a death certificate. If they were to be held liable, it could legally happen at any time...right?

I don't pretend to know.


Delaying "death" (quotes because she's dead) and therefore the autopsy, would be in their benefit in that case. For example, there is no longer evidence of solid food in her digestive tract as there would have been if she had "died" (cessation of organ activity) right then and there. If this story of them feeding her is true, of course.

I try to not be a completely cynical person, but this occurred to me as well. Although it is also a rebuttal to the theory that the hospital wants to "kill" her all the way to hide their medical mistake. If her death was because of mistake or intentional stupidity, then the longer the autopsy is delayed, the harder it will be to prove. The hospital would benefit from keeping the corpse warm.
 
2014-01-09 08:28:05 PM  

Loren: Mitch Taylor's Bro: More recently, they cared for my great-aunt, who had bad alzheimer's. Eventually, they had to put her in a convalescent home because they couldn't care for her on their own. That gave them almost three years of insight into what goes on in places like that. They still visit and bring flowers occasionally, even though my great aunt died almost 15 years ago. But they decided that if they were ever in a situation where they might be reduced to a mere shell of their former selves (more than just the ravages of time, mind you), that they'd rather go with dignity than attempt an expensive procedure that, at best, would greatly reduce their quality of life.

They are in their mid-80's and in very good shape for their age. But they feel that they've led good lives and don't want to spend the last bits of it hooked up to machines or completely bed-ridden if some medical procedure can only bring them part-way back to health. I am also their only surviving child, and I think they really don't want to be a burden on me.

I think my mother had a good standard--do what you can so long as the result is a reasonable chance she's going home.  If she's not going home don't try.


Unfortunately, the legal and health care systems don't work that way. Health care professionals are required to do their best to resuscitate you UNLESS you have a DNR order on file.
 
2014-01-09 08:31:48 PM  
 
2014-01-09 08:37:28 PM  
Look, the parent killed their kid being bad parents.  You think they're going to change now?
 
2014-01-09 08:41:44 PM  

namegoeshere: walktoanarcade: Bunny Deville: So I discussed this with the husband, and he had a more sinister take on this case.

If the family DID feed Jahi, and if the grandmother DID suction her when she bled, then they could be held accountable for this if the hospital has proof... and if Jahi is, in fact, dead... well, it's in their best interests to keep that heart beating as long as humanly possible.

If we do have souls, I hope hers is free.

She's got a death certificate. If they were to be held liable, it could legally happen at any time...right?

I don't pretend to know.

Delaying "death" (quotes because she's dead) and therefore the autopsy, would be in their benefit in that case. For example, there is no longer evidence of solid food in her digestive tract as there would have been if she had "died" (cessation of organ activity) right then and there. If this story of them feeding her is true, of course.

I try to not be a completely cynical person, but this occurred to me as well. Although it is also a rebuttal to the theory that the hospital wants to "kill" her all the way to hide their medical mistake. If her death was because of mistake or intentional stupidity, then the longer the autopsy is delayed, the harder it will be to prove. The hospital would benefit from keeping the corpse warm.


I grasp that argument, but I feel that as a death certificate was issued, legally she's been as cold as ice for a month. Also, it seems the hospital has done an adequate job holding their tongues because they're in the legal right and the only way they could lose money is if the family...hey son of a biatch..waitasec

Those evil farks. ...the only way they could lose if is they lacked the funds to sue for other BS until finally the hospital cries false uncle and pays them off to make them go away.  Is that their game?

Maybe being cynical in this case is correct.  Please let this not be the case.
 
2014-01-09 08:47:02 PM  

thatboyoverthere: Also fark the hospital. "We accidentally killed your daughter so we're going to pull the plug on her LOL!"
/I feel for the family. Personally I would pull the plug but it's up to them.
//My mother says they would have pulled the plug eventually but the hospital decided now. So the family is never going to pull the plug just out of sheer defiance.
/// Also fark the hospital.


Witnesses in the PICU said that this family were absolute beasts before she had complications.
BTW, you dont just end up in the PICU if you are low risk...just saying.
They came in many (The number used was 14) at a time even though it was suppose to be 1 visitor per PICU patient. The nurses ended up trying to wrangle that mess.
They mother and grandmother were feeding her bigmac's even though you are not suppose to eat anything.
When she started bleeding a little the mother, grandmother, stepfather and the girl herself were suctioning her throat causing further bleeding and removing more of the scabs/clots/sutures.
It was after them doing these things that the bleeding really went crazy and out of control. It was described as "waterfall like" by one witness.
Do a search for the eye witnesses...many of them have stopped talking about it for legal reasons.
Not saying the hospital is does not share a blame, but the family IMO is the primary cause of this poor girls death.

Girl On Couch: ok - I have actually been following this (happening in my neck of the woods) and a couple of things:

1. this was NOT a "routine operation" - as Dallymo said, she had an adenotonsillectomy, uvulopalatopharyngoplasty and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates to deal with her sleep apnea (the family has never said why they didn't try to treat this with weight loss or other non-surgical procedures, like the use of a CPAP mask - an aggressive operation like this on a child is usually the last resort)

2. The family has been told repeatedly by 6 different doctors that she is brain dead (and that one does not "recover" from brain death)

3. The family's lawyer has repeatedly lied about the existence of facilities willing to accept and care for a corpse - the last one he claimed to express interest was out of NY run by a former beautician who claims this corpse just needs time to heal.

4. Post op - this family was in the room encouraging the girl to speak, eat and drink (specifically forbidden by the doctors as it might rupture her delicate stitches); additionally the grandmother admits suctioning blood out of the girl's mouth in post op but claimed it was ok - she knew what she was doing because she's a nurse (she's an LVN and has repeatedly exaggerated her licensing and training in the local media)

5. The family created a go fund me page for transport and treatment of this corpse (last I read they had over $50k in donations)

6. At least one doctor has testified that due to the brain inactivity (both brain and brain stem) the corpse is no longer regulating food, etc. (no reason it needs a feeding tube) and that the inside of the bowels are starting to slough off through stools.

Bottom line - this family is beyond grieving - they are parasitic scum who want to raise money for "the care" of their dead kid - they are playing on right to lifer's ignorance.  I just wonder how long they'll keep this charade up as the corpse is already starting to decay (under ...


I have been following this closely too...its like a wreck...I just cant turn away.
Here is the supplemental court document discussing her decomposition.
http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/HeidiFlori.pdf
 
2014-01-09 08:50:05 PM  

Mitch Taylor's Bro: Daedalus27: Actually there may be winners if the family would face reality and let her go. There have to be dozens of sick children who could use her perfectly good organs and tissues out there who could benefit if they would accept she can't come back and give consent to donate her organs.

Another sad aspect of this case: she's been on a ventilator, but I don't think they've had her on a feeding tube until recently (that's probably why she's "improving"). But I bet a month without nourishment has taken a toll on her internal organs.


Actually the feeding tube is not doing anything.
The intestines have sloughed their lining and collapsed since there is no longer any brain to control them.
She is rotting form the inside out....
I posted a link above where the doctor describes things pretty well...
 
2014-01-09 08:53:44 PM  
I'm morbidly waiting for this girls heart to finally stop so the real fun begins.. The more and more I read.. The more and more my spidey senses tingle..  I think this family is in for a rude awakening.
 
2014-01-09 08:53:56 PM  

lemortede: Witnesses in the PICU said that this family were absolute beasts before she had complications.
BTW, you dont just end up in the PICU if you are low risk...just saying.
They came in many (The number used was 14) at a time even though it was suppose to be 1 visitor per PICU patient. The nurses ended up trying to wrangle that mess.
They mother and grandmother were feeding her bigmac's even though you are not suppose to eat anything.
When she started bleeding a little the mother, grandmother, stepfather and the girl herself were suctioning her throat causing further bleeding and removing more of the scabs/clots/sutures.
It was after them doing these things that the bleeding really went crazy and out of control. It was described as "waterfall like" by one witness.
Do a search for the eye witnesses...many of them have stopped talking about it for legal reasons.
Not saying the hospital is does not share a blame, but the family IMO is the primary cause of this poor girls death.


So my son and both had tonsillectomy/adenoidectomies within the last five years (I do not recommend this for adults; three weeks of level 7 pain...) and with BOTH of our surgeries, I was warned of the potential for the scabs to come off early, leading to torrential bleeding. I don't recall either of us having stitches, but then, Jahi's surgery was much more involved.

Just... what the hell were they thinking giving the child a hamburger? That's the most criminally stupid thing I can think of after a tonsillectomy of any sort. It took me a solid month before I could choke down anything other than popsicles and dairy free ice cream (Pro-tip- ice cream makes the swelling worse).

So if anyone else went to DocBastard's blog, an individual named "HoodRat" who claims to be jahi's cousin popped into the comments section and had some rather disturbing things to say.
 
2014-01-09 08:55:32 PM  
This hamburger thing needs a huge "CITATION NEEDED".. It's only on blogs and shiatty conspiracy sites..  Where did this hamburger thing spawn from? No one seems to know.
 
2014-01-09 08:58:29 PM  

styckx: I'm morbidly waiting for this girls heart to finally stop so the real fun begins.. The more and more I read.. The more and more my spidey senses tingle..  I think this family is in for a rude awakening.


Terri Schiavo's family still insists that she was conscious and not in a PVS and could see and interact with them even though the autopsy showed that she was blind and a third of her brain was liquefied.

NEVER underestimate teh power of denial.


And for those of you wondering why I am so livid about all of this... it's WRONG. It's WRONG for her parents to act like this. They're like spoiled brats who never listened to anything and now they've killed their kid because of it and they can't even take responsibility for the FACT that the kid is dead, much less the part they may or may not have played. They're creating a dangerous legal precedent. And I know that not everyone can take college level classes about health and the body, but I run into so much ignorance every day (my in laws keep telling me about a friend with "neck cancer"...) that it's just hard to take sometimes. And this one is really hard to take because there's just no need, no excuse, no reason for this to be drawn out this long.
 
2014-01-09 09:09:30 PM  

styckx: This hamburger thing needs a huge "CITATION NEEDED".. It's only on blogs and shiatty conspiracy sites..  Where did this hamburger thing spawn from? No one seems to know.


Sometimes stuff happens and it isn't caught on video, or it is on video and gets lost.

Or like others have mentioned, the witnesses are shutting up because it's getting lawsuity.

Did you know that there's a TV version of Star Wars where Luke says: "Blast it, *Wedge, where are you?"?
If you disbelieve it, it's your loss, however I do agree I can't prove it without a copy.
/right not biggs
 
2014-01-09 09:24:33 PM  

walktoanarcade: styckx: This hamburger thing needs a huge "CITATION NEEDED".. It's only on blogs and shiatty conspiracy sites..  Where did this hamburger thing spawn from? No one seems to know.

Sometimes stuff happens and it isn't caught on video, or it is on video and gets lost.

Or like others have mentioned, the witnesses are shutting up because it's getting lawsuity.

Did you know that there's a TV version of Star Wars where Luke says: "Blast it, *Wedge, where are you?"?
If you disbelieve it, it's your loss, however I do agree I can't prove it without a copy.
/right not biggs


I'm not ridculing anyone.. Or saying people are making it up. I just hate having a talking point that I can't point to a credible place to validate what I say..   I mean, if the hamburger story is true.. Someone had to talk about.. Where is this talking about it?  Where is that? It had to stem from somewhere and I just keep scratching my head trying to figure it out..  Someone had to report on it or it wouldn't be comment section gossip.. Who reported on it?
 
2014-01-09 09:32:54 PM  

styckx: walktoanarcade: styckx: This hamburger thing needs a huge "CITATION NEEDED".. It's only on blogs and shiatty conspiracy sites..  Where did this hamburger thing spawn from? No one seems to know.

Sometimes stuff happens and it isn't caught on video, or it is on video and gets lost.

Or like others have mentioned, the witnesses are shutting up because it's getting lawsuity.

Did you know that there's a TV version of Star Wars where Luke says: "Blast it, *Wedge, where are you?"?
If you disbelieve it, it's your loss, however I do agree I can't prove it without a copy.
/right not biggs

I'm not ridculing anyone.. Or saying people are making it up. I just hate having a talking point that I can't point to a credible place to validate what I say..   I mean, if the hamburger story is true.. Someone had to talk about.. Where is this talking about it?  Where is that? It had to stem from somewhere and I just keep scratching my head trying to figure it out..  Someone had to report on it or it wouldn't be comment section gossip.. Who reported on it?


No, it's OK, didn't seem like you were making fun at all. You're right to demand credible sources, I'm in the same boat as you;it's hard to know if it's plausible sounding BS, or if some hospital employee jotted it down on their cell phone(as in started the blog comments). Or something similar.

All of you getting extremely angry(not saying you specifically) over this ought to become journalists because this country needs people that care to ask the right questions.


/the star wars comment is truthful
 
2014-01-09 09:37:01 PM  

derpy: Also, fark the new secret hospital that is playing along with this charade.


Money, publicity, etc.

walktoanarcade: derpy: Also, fark the new secret hospital that is playing along with this charade.

You mean the family's basement and or darkened laundry room?


oh
 
2014-01-09 09:38:03 PM  

walktoanarcade: styckx: walktoanarcade: styckx: This hamburger thing needs a huge "CITATION NEEDED".. It's only on blogs and shiatty conspiracy sites..  Where did this hamburger thing spawn from? No one seems to know.

Sometimes stuff happens and it isn't caught on video, or it is on video and gets lost.

Or like others have mentioned, the witnesses are shutting up because it's getting lawsuity.

Did you know that there's a TV version of Star Wars where Luke says: "Blast it, *Wedge, where are you?"?
If you disbelieve it, it's your loss, however I do agree I can't prove it without a copy.
/right not biggs

I'm not ridculing anyone.. Or saying people are making it up. I just hate having a talking point that I can't point to a credible place to validate what I say..   I mean, if the hamburger story is true.. Someone had to talk about.. Where is this talking about it?  Where is that? It had to stem from somewhere and I just keep scratching my head trying to figure it out..  Someone had to report on it or it wouldn't be comment section gossip.. Who reported on it?

No, it's OK, didn't seem like you were making fun at all. You're right to demand credible sources, I'm in the same boat as you;it's hard to know if it's plausible sounding BS, or if some hospital employee jotted it down on their cell phone(as in started the blog comments). Or something similar.

All of you getting extremely angry(not saying you specifically) over this ought to become journalists because this country needs people that care to ask the right questions.


/the star wars comment is truthful


We need to hire one of those meme sites.. Who somehow, someway, manage to find out the very first mentioning of a shiatty meme some 4 years back in some obscure thread on reddit or  a 4chan archive.
 
2014-01-09 09:43:57 PM  
Here is another pretty good blog about it.

Her brain is soup. Her skull is a soup bowl.
 
2014-01-09 09:44:53 PM  
styckx:

We need to hire one of those meme sites.. Who somehow, someway, manage to find out the very first mentioning of a shiatty meme some 4 years back in some obscure thread on reddit or  a 4chan archive.

Are you a super-villain?  o_0
 
2014-01-09 09:46:44 PM  

Mitch Taylor's Bro: I think my mother had a good standard--do what you can so long as the result is a reasonable chance she's going home. If she's not going home don't try.

Unfortunately, the legal and health care systems don't work that way. Health care professionals are required to do their best to resuscitate you UNLESS you have a DNR order on file.


Agreed, and I'm not too happy with the hospital.  They woke me up, verified I was family and then asked about DNR orders.  They didn't ask if I knew her wishes and didn't realize I was only half awake.  (My gripe is purely procedural as given the situation I would have said to try.)  Just because you're working swing doesn't mean the person you just woke up is alert!

lemortede: Do a search for the eye witnesses...many of them have stopped talking about it for legal reasons.


Got some links?  I seem to be using the wrong search terms or something.
 
2014-01-09 09:51:28 PM  
It's a hamburger now?  I was reading something similar in another comment section only there someone was (admittedly) speculating that the family give her comfort food.  We will never know if it happened because if it did, nobody will ever admit it.  It's plausible though.  With the way the mom is acting I can see it as a reaction to wanting to distance oneself from the blame (if that is what happened).

Again, not saying it did happened so back off if your about to go all crazy on me for this.  I'm just saying I can easily see how it could happen and it's an interesting talking point.  The girl was overweight, there are plenty of families that turn to food for comfort and it would explain why 3 days after the procedure something went horribly wrong.  It wouldn't be the first time somebody snuck in food to a hospital.  Hell, when I had my appendix out my family snuck me in food.  I'm sure plenty of people here have had the same experience.  It's a very human thing to do.
 
2014-01-09 09:53:24 PM  

namegoeshere: Here is another pretty good blog about it.

Her brain is soup. Her skull is a soup bowl.


God damn crackers
 
2014-01-09 09:54:30 PM  
Here is a pic of her hand. You can see the skin slippage as decomposition continues.

(basically sfw. It's just hands)
 
2014-01-09 10:01:03 PM  

luxup: It's a hamburger now?  I was reading something similar in another comment section only there someone was (admittedly) speculating that the family give her comfort food.  We will never know if it happened because if it did, nobody will ever admit it.  It's plausible though.  With the way the mom is acting I can see it as a reaction to wanting to distance oneself from the blame (if that is what happened).

Again, not saying it did happened so back off if your about to go all crazy on me for this.  I'm just saying I can easily see how it could happen and it's an interesting talking point.  The girl was overweight, there are plenty of families that turn to food for comfort and it would explain why 3 days after the procedure something went horribly wrong.  It wouldn't be the first time somebody snuck in food to a hospital.  Hell, when I had my appendix out my family snuck me in food.  I'm sure plenty of people here have had the same experience.  It's a very human thing to do.


It would explain a lot. The thing that makes me skeptical, though, is that when a coworker of mine had this surgery (as a last resort - she had tried all else and death was still a very real possibility) she said that recovery was absolute farking hell. It was months before she was eating normally, and weeks before she could tolerate anything she couldn't sip. It's not the tonsils, it's the soft palate that's the killer. So I can't imagine even a food addicted heavy person wanting anything at all to do with a cheeseburger (or whatever it was) so soon post op.
 
2014-01-09 10:03:57 PM  

namegoeshere: Here is a pic of her hand. You can see the skin slippage as decomposition continues.

(basically sfw. It's just hands)


Especially compared to this hand shot taken weeks ago.
 
2014-01-09 10:05:11 PM  

namegoeshere: luxup: It's a hamburger now?  I was reading something similar in another comment section only there someone was (admittedly) speculating that the family give her comfort food.  We will never know if it happened because if it did, nobody will ever admit it.  It's plausible though.  With the way the mom is acting I can see it as a reaction to wanting to distance oneself from the blame (if that is what happened).

Again, not saying it did happened so back off if your about to go all crazy on me for this.  I'm just saying I can easily see how it could happen and it's an interesting talking point.  The girl was overweight, there are plenty of families that turn to food for comfort and it would explain why 3 days after the procedure something went horribly wrong.  It wouldn't be the first time somebody snuck in food to a hospital.  Hell, when I had my appendix out my family snuck me in food.  I'm sure plenty of people here have had the same experience.  It's a very human thing to do.

It would explain a lot. The thing that makes me skeptical, though, is that when a coworker of mine had this surgery (as a last resort - she had tried all else and death was still a very real possibility) she said that recovery was absolute farking hell. It was months before she was eating normally, and weeks before she could tolerate anything she couldn't sip. It's not the tonsils, it's the soft palate that's the killer. So I can't imagine even a food addicted heavy person wanting anything at all to do with a cheeseburger (or whatever it was) so soon post op.


I am a fat girl who loves some food. Like i said before, it was a solid month after just a tonsillectomy before I could force anything more solid than pasta down.

That said... all it would have taken was one bite.
 
2014-01-09 10:08:59 PM  
I hope Fark continues greening threads about this.. Some good dark humor here and there but it has been a interesting thread with a lot of great discussion.
 
2014-01-09 10:12:24 PM  

Cagey B: thatboyoverthere: Also fark the hospital. "We accidentally killed your daughter so we're going to pull the plug on her LOL!"

g4lt: Well, although the kid's a vegetable, I can't help thinking that the hospital that CAUSED THE FARKING BRAIN DEATH shouldn't have any more say in the care decisions, no matter how logical they're being.

These statements make absolutely no sense to me. The kid's dead. Regardless of what the circumstances of her death were, what exactly is the benefit to anybody of keeping a corpse on life support? Do we dig up murder victims and force criminals to pay for their dialysis and skin treatments?


The mother is hanging on to the idea that "because her heart is beating, we know she's alive." (as near an actual quote as I can recall without looking it up) The whole family is basically endorsing that idea, that as long as she is "breathing" and her heart is "beating" that she's alive and needs to be "given a chance to recover" (all near-quotes I've heard on news reports).

I don't know if this family is uber-religious, or if mom is just in ultra-denial that a 13-year old girl is now a meat-sack; but it's not the hospital, or the lawyers or anyone else. Nearly everyone except the family and their own attorneys are insisting this child is dead and needs to be let go; but the parents and family are insisting she's "alive" and they want to give her "every opportunity" to survive. The hospital is not making any money off this, and the place that accepted her body had to go through all kinds of legal hoops to accept her--they didn't want her either.

it's very sad.
 
2014-01-09 10:12:45 PM  

styckx: I hope Fark continues greening threads about this.. Some good dark humor here and there but it has been a interesting thread with a lot of great discussion.


^this

If anything, this story has reminded me that no matter the peoples, no one likes death and most appreciate gallows humor to alleviate the stress of that awful reminder that..oh hey! Ever play Bosconian?
 
2014-01-09 10:14:06 PM  

styckx: I hope Fark continues greening threads about this.. Some good dark humor here and there but it has been a interesting thread with a lot of great discussion.


And everyone has been civil! It's been great.
 
2014-01-09 10:14:58 PM  

namegoeshere: Here is a pic of her hand. You can see the skin slippage as decomposition continues.

(basically sfw. It's just hands)


While disturbing in concept, the image is of too low quality for the appearance not be dismissed by a "Jahi Truther" as simply a consequence of extreme weight loss.
 
2014-01-09 10:16:57 PM  
What is preventing the courts where this girl is at now from ordering them to pull the plug? At this point what's the difference between what she is doing and my dad dying and storing him in a closet?  They are harboring a corpse.. There has got to be some laws and a judge with the balls to say "Hey, shut it down.. You're farking insane"
 
2014-01-09 10:17:03 PM  

styckx: I hope Fark continues greening threads about this.. Some good dark humor here and there but it has been a interesting thread with a lot of great discussion.


I must confess that I had been waiting nearly a week to use my Indiana Jones reference.
 
2014-01-09 10:18:00 PM  

namegoeshere: Bunny Deville: walktoanarcade:
Dear God...

Some people really are a river in Egypt. Maybe it's time for nurses like your step-mom to let people know before that stage it could come to that gruesome end, although how to broach it, search me.

Oh, she tried. Believe you me, she tried. At this stage the body has already lost a couple of digits due to lack of blood flow. People, especially uneducated people, just will not listen sometimes. It's awful. No matter how much you reason with people, if the heart is still beating, they believe that the loved one will just wake up one day and be fine. When the tongue thing happened, that's when my stepmom stopped trying to be nice to this family and let them know that they weren't doing anyone any favors by their denial.

Only on Fark could I ask this question: Did they just sort of... fall off? Or were they surgically removed because of rot?


Sorry, catching up on the thread but that question right there is why I love this place.
 
2014-01-09 10:19:22 PM  

Dimensio: styckx: I hope Fark continues greening threads about this.. Some good dark humor here and there but it has been a interesting thread with a lot of great discussion.

I must confess that I had been waiting nearly a week to use my Indiana Jones reference.


I love dark humor

/huge fan of Jim Norton, Louis CK etc...
 
2014-01-09 10:40:41 PM  
Thank you to all who posted links.  I'm off to read them now, with a heavy heart.  I can't say what I would do in their situation, but I'd like to think I'd be rational enough to take six doctors' advice and let my child go, as painful as it may be.  Dead is dead.
 
2014-01-09 10:42:08 PM  
I'm just waiting for these guys to get charged with "abuse of a corpse". Hasn't she been declared legally dead for a few days?
 
2014-01-09 10:43:04 PM  

CRtwenty: I'm just waiting for these guys to get charged with "abuse of a corpse". Hasn't she been declared legally dead for a few days?


A few? We're a few days away from a month now..  No lie.. The girl has been clinically dead for nearly a month..
 
2014-01-09 10:43:20 PM  

namegoeshere: luxup: It's a hamburger now?  I was reading something similar in another comment section only there someone was (admittedly) speculating that the family give her comfort food.  We will never know if it happened because if it did, nobody will ever admit it.  It's plausible though.  With the way the mom is acting I can see it as a reaction to wanting to distance oneself from the blame (if that is what happened).

Again, not saying it did happened so back off if your about to go all crazy on me for this.  I'm just saying I can easily see how it could happen and it's an interesting talking point.  The girl was overweight, there are plenty of families that turn to food for comfort and it would explain why 3 days after the procedure something went horribly wrong.  It wouldn't be the first time somebody snuck in food to a hospital.  Hell, when I had my appendix out my family snuck me in food.  I'm sure plenty of people here have had the same experience.  It's a very human thing to do.

It would explain a lot. The thing that makes me skeptical, though, is that when a coworker of mine had this surgery (as a last resort - she had tried all else and death was still a very real possibility) she said that recovery was absolute farking hell. It was months before she was eating normally, and weeks before she could tolerate anything she couldn't sip. It's not the tonsils, it's the soft palate that's the killer. So I can't imagine even a food addicted heavy person wanting anything at all to do with a cheeseburger (or whatever it was) so soon post op.


I can see a scared 13 year old little girl wanting to please her mommy.  Maybe do what mom asks to show her she doesn't need to worry and maybe grandma will stop offering her food.

Just seeing how the whole food dynamic plays out with in-laws while trying to raise a healthy child, well...I can picture it.
 
2014-01-09 10:46:41 PM  

styckx: CRtwenty: I'm just waiting for these guys to get charged with "abuse of a corpse". Hasn't she been declared legally dead for a few days?

A few? We're a few days away from a month now..  No lie.. The girl has been clinically dead for nearly a month..


Yeah, but I think her death certificate was officially issued just a few days ago. I remember one of the articles posted earlier saying the family had to get it before they could get her body out of the hospital and into wherever the heck she is now.

Well I doubt it'll be an issue for very much longer. They'll have to face the music when parts of her start falling off.
 
2014-01-09 10:51:42 PM  
Oh gaaa, I just started thinking about what I'd do if my son was like this. Something I have never had to think about in my entire life. I'd let him go, of course, but ---goddamn you people. Fiends.
 
2014-01-09 10:52:42 PM  

CRtwenty: styckx: CRtwenty: I'm just waiting for these guys to get charged with "abuse of a corpse". Hasn't she been declared legally dead for a few days?

A few? We're a few days away from a month now..  No lie.. The girl has been clinically dead for nearly a month..

Yeah, but I think her death certificate was officially issued just a few days ago. I remember one of the articles posted earlier saying the family had to get it before they could get her body out of the hospital and into wherever the heck she is now.

Well I doubt it'll be an issue for very much longer. They'll have to face the music when parts of her start falling off.


Yeah... I see your point in the death certificate part..

And.. Who's to say when her heart stops they'll even tell anyone? These people are insane and I hate that I'm even emotionally vested in someone elses life but fark.. It's a dead little girl they're toting around as a sideshow circus... Motherfarkers..  I'm seriously just despising this family more and more..
 
2014-01-09 10:55:01 PM  

cryinoutloud: Oh gaaa, I just started thinking about what I'd do if my son was like this. Something I have never had to think about in my entire life. I'd let him go, of course, but ---goddamn you people. Fiends.


Me and my father had this conversation today.. He came at me with this angle also.. I said to him "Dad, a month now the road about six doctors said I was dead.. You touched my skin and it was loose, and falling apart, I leaked intestines out my asshole, my temp cold as the air in the room. I haven't farted, moved, blinked, coughed, etc.. You would still hang on and think there is hope?"
 
2014-01-09 11:00:10 PM  

styckx: Dallymo: RoyFokker'sGhost: Dallymo: Rodeodoc: Lots on here about the parents getting $bazillions off a  law suit.  Can a CA farker confirm that California law caps malpractice awards at $250,000?  If that's the case, I'm thinking that the girl's stay in the new facility will suck that up in a month or so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Injury_Compensation_Reform_Act

The $250k is for non-economic damages.

The family's attorney, Christopher Dolan, is active in efforts to change MICRA, arguing that the $250k cap is unconstitutional.

http://www.protectconsumerjustice.org/how-the-micra-cap-violates-cal if ornians-rights-to-equal-protection-jury-trial-and-due-process.html

The emotional outcry and publicity this case is generating is a plus for his cause.


Of course he wants the cap removed; he's an ambulance chasing personal-injury lawyer

And that's not exaggeration, he specifically targets injury cases in his TV ads.

Yes--I think there's an idea, especially among some who are on the side of keeping the child on the vent "because she might wake up," that Dolan is purely a white knight for the girl and her family.  The uncle posted on Instagram:

I will be forever grateful for this man. He took my call in the middle of the night and listened to everything I had to say and decided to help me for FREE!!! There are not many lawyers in the world that would take a case where there is no money involved, but this man has a huge heart and I will always love him for what he has done for my family. I hear people questioning his ethics and it is ridiculous. This man did what no other lawyer would and I can't thank him enough. Christopher B. Dolan you are my brother & my friend. Welcome to the family, but you were already family when agreed to help me that night
 http://instagram.com/p/i9d1kUopsg/#


He may not be receiving a fee from the family, but it's hard to believe that he'd take this case if it didn't advance his cause against MICRA in general, "huge heart" or no. ...



Yeah, Dolan is the major ambulance chaser in San Francisco. To give you more of an idea, he has radio ads that masquerade as PSA's; like having his 'daughter' (not sure if it's really her or not, or if he even has one) talk about bicycle safety and wearing helmets, then Dolan comes on and says 'We hope you'll never need our services; but if you've been injured, call the Dolan Law Firm at...'

Have no doubt that all he sees is the dollar signs.

Also, IANAL, but from what i've heard, the $250K cap is only for 'potential earning' damages; emotional damages and punitive fees are still wide open.
 
2014-01-09 11:02:39 PM  
Confusion between vegetative state and brain dead notwithstanding, I believe I found out why people believe that being hooked up to life support isn't that bad: http://youtu.be/hoUA8RSL8_Q
 
2014-01-09 11:03:59 PM  

luxup: I can see a scared 13 year old little girl wanting to please her mommy. Maybe do what mom asks to show her she doesn't need to worry and maybe grandma will stop offering her food.

Just seeing how the whole food dynamic plays out with in-laws while trying to raise a healthy child, well...I can picture it.


Plus who knows how powerful her meds were at the time. Surgery like that has got to be painful as hell and with an apparent BMI like that who knows what they had to do to manage her pain. Between that and perhaps her trying to swallow a bite or two I can see that happening and IF (and it's a big if) the family tried to suction out the bleeding themselves at first causing the stitches to rip or tear out even more, then the hospital should be well in the clear. 3 day post-op and hemorrhaging out like that is not normal at all if she and her family were looking out for her stitches the way they were supposed to be.
 
2014-01-09 11:04:38 PM  

RoyFokker'sGhost: styckx: Dallymo: RoyFokker'sGhost: Dallymo: Rodeodoc: Lots on here about the parents getting $bazillions off a  law suit.  Can a CA farker confirm that California law caps malpractice awards at $250,000?  If that's the case, I'm thinking that the girl's stay in the new facility will suck that up in a month or so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Injury_Compensation_Reform_Act

The $250k is for non-economic damages.

The family's attorney, Christopher Dolan, is active in efforts to change MICRA, arguing that the $250k cap is unconstitutional.

http://www.protectconsumerjustice.org/how-the-micra-cap-violates-cal if ornians-rights-to-equal-protection-jury-trial-and-due-process.html

The emotional outcry and publicity this case is generating is a plus for his cause.


Of course he wants the cap removed; he's an ambulance chasing personal-injury lawyer

And that's not exaggeration, he specifically targets injury cases in his TV ads.

Yes--I think there's an idea, especially among some who are on the side of keeping the child on the vent "because she might wake up," that Dolan is purely a white knight for the girl and her family.  The uncle posted on Instagram:

I will be forever grateful for this man. He took my call in the middle of the night and listened to everything I had to say and decided to help me for FREE!!! There are not many lawyers in the world that would take a case where there is no money involved, but this man has a huge heart and I will always love him for what he has done for my family. I hear people questioning his ethics and it is ridiculous. This man did what no other lawyer would and I can't thank him enough. Christopher B. Dolan you are my brother & my friend. Welcome to the family, but you were already family when agreed to help me that night
 http://instagram.com/p/i9d1kUopsg/#


He may not be receiving a fee from the family, but it's hard to believe that he'd take this case if it didn't advance his cause against MICRA in general, "huge heart ...


Every city has these Scumbags..

Here is Philly.. This guy IS KING of being a leeching asshole:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfDykO2kSSY
 
2014-01-09 11:21:44 PM  

Bunny Deville: Terri Schiavo's family still insists that she was conscious and not in a PVS and could see and interact with them even though the autopsy showed that she was blind and a third of her brain was liquefied.


I remember seeing an (X-ray? CT scan?) of her (remaining) brain next to the same of a normal brain.  Most of the picture was empty cause the tissue had died and the body cleared it out.  This poor girl ain't gonna wake up and the family needs to accept it.
 
2014-01-09 11:28:36 PM  
styckx: Every city has these Scumbags..

Here is Philly.. This guy IS KING of being a leeching asshole:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfDykO2kSSY" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(61, 61, 255); text-decoration: none; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgb(255, 94, 153); line-height: 17px;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfDykO2kSSY


Oh, absolutely. There's these kinds of lawyers everywhere you go. I was just saying that this is 'our' scumbag attorney.

Not that we're proud of him or anything...

The bottom line is that it's a tragedy that's being made far worse by a leech pretending to care. Given some of the disturbing biological effects that have been posted in this thread, her poor family is going to be even more devastated when the rot in her body becomes more obvious.
 
2014-01-09 11:47:24 PM  
Personally I'm happy that zombies have yet to progress to the point where they can be away from oxygen pumping machines and still have to be fed with a tube. Give it a couple decades and some asshole will have these things up and walking.
 
2014-01-09 11:50:43 PM  

RoyFokker'sGhost: Also, IANAL, but from what i've heard, the $250K cap is only for 'potential earning' damages; emotional damages and punitive fees are still wide open.


You are correct. Punitive damages can go through the roof. And there's a potential for loss of consortium here, or whatever the equivalent is for children.
 
2014-01-09 11:56:55 PM  
This might be one of the best and more brutally honest pieces written about this:  http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/01/09/ethicists-critic i ze-treatment-brain-dead-patients/4394173/
 
2014-01-09 11:57:22 PM  
This is one of the most disgusting, sad, unbelievable stories I've ever heard of. This is the first time I've paid any attention to it at all.

They took her body out of the morgue. It's like The Monkey's Paw for modern times.
 
2014-01-10 12:09:24 AM  
Nurse here.  I read somewhere, and I cannot remember where for the life of me so I'm going to try to find it tonight so I can cite a credible source for you, but I read that the brain dead girl had an undisclosed blood clotting condition that put her at an increased risk for hemorrhage after surgery.  It's just speculation though, and I very well may have read it in a blog or post so let me find the source.

As for the hospital in Oakland: I hope that those nurses documented the hell out of everything that was going on in that PICU, right down to how many family members insisted on being in there with that girl.  Whenever we have annoying or unruly families we document everything out of sorts that happens because it's the overbearing, annoying families that cause issues a lot of the time.  I can't tell you how many times family members have gotten in the way of us caring for their mom, dad, aunt, uncle, grandma etc.  I am sympathetic and extremely accomodating to families to a point - until they start interfering with the care of my patient.  Then I get mad and will start documenting that the family was interfering not only to protect myself but also the patient who I can't give adequate care to because the family isn't allowing me.  I hope those nurses did the same because if they did, the family will have a pretty wooly case against the hospital if the family was going against doctors orders.  I also hope it's documented that the family was educated by the staff before and after the surgery on the fact that the girl couldn't eat or talk for a certain period of time because the family could claim ignorance.  I care for heart failure patients who need to severely restrict their sodium intake and I can't tell you how many family members come in with Chinese food or McDonalds for their family members even after I've repeated myself over and over and over that high sodium food could kill their family member.  You can't fix stupid.

Sad story and I'm sorry for the family's loss but in the end, the only real loser is Jahi.
 
2014-01-10 12:16:38 AM  
not sure about applicable laws in this situation, but i would imagine that as soon as that death certificate gets filed, the family is getting hit with something along the lines of "concealing a corpse"...  i know i've heard that come up in fraud cases where someone died and got stashed without telling anyone so they could keep collecting social security/pension/etc. money.  no foul play involved, just deliberately keeping a dead body out of the coroner's office...  and in this case it sounds like they're trying to figure out how to get money out of this as well...
 
2014-01-10 01:13:35 AM  

nekom: Bob Falfa:
No. Her parents just can't let her go.
Very sad.

It is, but I'm not in any position to pass judgment, and god help me I don't ever want to be in such a position.  Grief can lead to irrational behavior.  Every scientific and medical opinion is that her brain is goo, she's already dead, not even the slightest chance of a recovery.  The family aren't doctors or scientists, all they hear is "Well, she's in bad shape, but you never know!"

It's just a shiatty situation all around.


but who is paying for her care now? and i'd bet the hospital will slip a bill under the parents door once the story cools down some.

if the parents can pay either themselves or with donations fine, let the girl lie there. if they can't, if you and i are paying pull the tracheostomy and the feeding tube and let her finish dying.
 
2014-01-10 01:20:57 AM  
It's late in the thread and I don't have much to contribute, but I just wanted to say that I am so very thankful for my CPAP....  Even at the age of 28 when I was first diagnosed with apnea, the doctors strongly recommended the machine over the operation...
 
2014-01-10 01:21:29 AM  

Gyrfalcon: RoyFokker'sGhost: Also, IANAL, but from what i've heard, the $250K cap is only for 'potential earning' damages; emotional damages and punitive fees are still wide open.

You are correct. Punitive damages can go through the roof. And there's a potential for loss of consortium here, or whatever the equivalent is for children.


IANAL either (Gyrfalcon may be, though--yes? from goals in your profile), but it sounds like it's much easier to demonstrate deviation from standard of care to show malpractice than it is to show "wanton and reckless conduct" or whatever the threshold is that would allow punitive damages.  There was an earlier interview with mom and the uncle (http://www.ktvu.com/videos/news/mcmath-vigil-raw-video-of-jahi-mcmat hs -mothers/vCLZHH/) in which the uncle suggests (about 6 minutes in) that the hospital wanted the vent disconnected because of the difference between a lawsuit for "chump change" of $250k and one for $30M.  I don't know if he's referring to medical costs or earning potential or punitive damages, but I do wonder where that number came from.  Dolan has said that he won't be handling the malpractice or wrongful death suit (http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_24865029/jahi-mcmath-stre et fighting-lawyer-takes-heat-death-threats) but it seems likely he had some influence in putting that number out there.

I hadn't actually watched that whole video through before; it's pretty sad.  Mom is steadfast in her belief that it had only been a week and they hadn't given Jahi enough time and that something good was going to happen.
 
2014-01-10 01:26:16 AM  

Loren: Mitch Taylor's Bro: I think my mother had a good standard--do what you can so long as the result is a reasonable chance she's going home. If she's not going home don't try.

Unfortunately, the legal and health care systems don't work that way. Health care professionals are required to do their best to resuscitate you UNLESS you have a DNR order on file.

Agreed, and I'm not too happy with the hospital.  They woke me up, verified I was family and then asked about DNR orders.  They didn't ask if I knew her wishes and didn't realize I was only half awake.  (My gripe is purely procedural as given the situation I would have said to try.)  Just because you're working swing doesn't mean the person you just woke up is alert!


I don't want to open old wounds or belabor the point, but here is the way it is in CA.

http://www.emsa.ca.gov/Forms

I can't tell for sure from your description what your situation was, but it sounds like your mother had a DNR order. If that's the case, once you said, "yes," and they covered all the legal bases, they could not resuscitate her, no matter what you said.

But you can see how serious this is for the health care providers. They can't afford to guess or determine whether or not you have the power of attorney required to make decisions for your mother. If your mother had a DNR order, I don't think you can reverse it, even if you have power of attorney. If she didn't, they are going to try to revive her. Your mother's standard, "do what you can so long as the result is a reasonable chance she's going home. If she's not going home don't try," is not an option available to them. They can't predict what would possibly happen to an unconscious person with a life-threatening condition and relay that info to you so you could make the decision for her.

So you might harbor bad feelings about how everything went down, but I don't think they had any choice and, quite possibly, neither did you.

Having said all that, and having just read that web page I linked to, I am going to talk to my parents about getting medic alert bracelets that contain their DNR info :-(
 
2014-01-10 01:28:04 AM  

JennyArcade: You can't fix stupid.


You can't.

And every nurse I have ever known... my mother, my stepmother, two of my cousins, my aunt, and my best friend... repeatedly present me with horror stories where the family is in denial and does something stupid. Education is the only answer.

Only... it doesn't do any good if MORONS LIKE THESE PEOPLE ARE ASSURING THE REST OF THE MORONS THAT BRAIN DEATH CAN BE OVERCOME WITH THE WILL OF EVERLOVING GOD EVEN THOUGH HE HAS NEVER DONE IT BEFORE EXCEPT IN CASES OF BRAIN DAMAGE NOT BRAIN DEATH BECAUSE BRAIN DEATH IS DEATH ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH.
 
2014-01-10 02:37:42 AM  

namegoeshere: Bunny Deville: namegoeshere: Bunny Deville: walktoanarcade:
Dear God...

Some people really are a river in Egypt. Maybe it's time for nurses like your step-mom to let people know before that stage it could come to that gruesome end, although how to broach it, search me.

Oh, she tried. Believe you me, she tried. At this stage the body has already lost a couple of digits due to lack of blood flow. People, especially uneducated people, just will not listen sometimes. It's awful. No matter how much you reason with people, if the heart is still beating, they believe that the loved one will just wake up one day and be fine. When the tongue thing happened, that's when my stepmom stopped trying to be nice to this family and let them know that they weren't doing anyone any favors by their denial.

Only on Fark could I ask this question: Did they just sort of... fall off? Or were they surgically removed because of rot?

Well, they weren't surgically removed.

*hork*

There's denial, and there's overlooking digits falling off denial.


I think that's up to Egyptian river delta De-nile
Amazing.,and sad.
 
2014-01-10 04:36:47 AM  

RoyFokker'sGhost: styckx: Every city has these Scumbags..

Here is Philly.. This guy IS KING of being a leeching asshole:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfDykO2kSSY" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(61, 61, 255); text-decoration: none; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgb(255, 94, 153); line-height: 17px;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfDykO2kSSY

Oh, absolutely. There's these kinds of lawyers everywhere you go. I was just saying that this is 'our' scumbag attorney.

Not that we're proud of him or anything...

The bottom line is that it's a tragedy that's being made far worse by a leech pretending to care. Given some of the disturbing biological effects that have been posted in this thread, her poor family is going to be even more devastated when the rot in her body becomes more obvious.


I really appreciate that you liken this lawyer scum to a blood-sucking oligochaeta, it just feels right that way, you know?
 
2014-01-10 06:26:18 AM  
There have been cases where people who were thought to be brain dead were successfully resuscitated and recalled things said around them that a brain dead person should not have been able to hear.
 
2014-01-10 07:29:01 AM  

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: There have been cases where people who were thought to be brain dead were successfully resuscitated and recalled things said around them that a brain dead person should not have been able to hear.


Yes, but they were misdiagnosed. They were in a deep coma, not brain dead. This child has been examined by six experts, as well as having every test and scan that it is possible to have. There has been zero blood flow to her brain for a month. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Not a trickle. Her brain tissue, all of it, including every bit of her brain stem, is dead. Done. Decomposing. If you read the blog I linked upthread, you'll see that at this point it has liquefied and this brain soup is leaking out of her skull and down her spinal column.

There is nothing left to see or hear or feel or think. Nothing. No brain. Nothing will ever come back. It's gone. She's gone.

Nowhere. Never. Ever. Has a person recovered from brain death. Such a thing has never happened. Misdiagnosis happens, yes. I would get a second opinion, maybe a third, were it my child. She's had six and every test there is to have. This is not that. She is dead. Gone. Never coming back. There is no doubt. There is no hope. Nothing.
 
2014-01-10 07:33:44 AM  

namegoeshere: Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: There have been cases where people who were thought to be brain dead were successfully resuscitated and recalled things said around them that a brain dead person should not have been able to hear.

Yes, but they were misdiagnosed. They were in a deep coma, not brain dead. This child has been examined by six experts, as well as having every test and scan that it is possible to have. There has been zero blood flow to her brain for a month. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Not a trickle. Her brain tissue, all of it, including every bit of her brain stem, is dead. Done. Decomposing. If you read the blog I linked upthread, you'll see that at this point it has liquefied and this brain soup is leaking out of her skull and down her spinal column.

There is nothing left to see or hear or feel or think. Nothing. No brain. Nothing will ever come back. It's gone. She's gone.

Nowhere. Never. Ever. Has a person recovered from brain death. Such a thing has never happened. Misdiagnosis happens, yes. I would get a second opinion, maybe a third, were it my child. She's had six and every test there is to have. This is not that. She is dead. Gone. Never coming back. There is no doubt. There is no hope. Nothing.


You did better than I would have.. I seriously think some people won't be convinced until there is a Liveleak video of maggots eating out her eye sockets.
 
2014-01-10 12:03:15 PM  
 
2014-01-10 12:12:30 PM  

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: There have been cases where people who were thought to be brain dead were successfully resuscitated and recalled things said around them that a brain dead person should not have been able to hear.


What would you care to wager on the outcome of this?
 
2014-01-10 01:12:12 PM  

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: There have been cases where people who were thought to be brain dead were successfully resuscitated and recalled things said around them that a brain dead person should not have been able to hear.


I think you are confusing total brain stem death with coma.
 
2014-01-10 01:18:53 PM  

BizarreMan: Compare and contrast Jahi McMath with Marlise Munoz


1) Marlise is not being kept alive. Her corpse is being kept warm in an attempt to keep the fetus alive to viability. No one is under any misconceptions that she herself will be alive at the end of it.

2) The family is completely realistic about the outcome. They understand that the mother has died. They do not believe the baby to be viable even if the mother's blood circulates for another ten weeks without too many body parts falling off. They want corpse support removed.

3) The state is being ignorant about the baby's chance of survival. But hey, Texas. Not known for rational thought where science is concerned.

So basically, apples and oranges except that they are both warm corpses.
 
2014-01-10 01:25:09 PM  
Also, this f*cking idiotic, WRONG headline:

Marlise Munoz, Brain-Dead Texan Woman, Kept Alive To Incubate Unborn Baby

is a HUGE part of the problem. She is not being kept alive. She is dead. Brain dead is dead. Her organs are being kept functioning artificially. She's dead.

Ignorant, irresponsible media. Spreading ignorance.
 
2014-01-10 01:47:07 PM  

namegoeshere: 2) The family is completely realistic about the outcome. They understand that the mother has died. They do not believe the baby to be viable even if the mother's blood circulates for another ten weeks without too many body parts falling off. They want corpse support removed.


They (who is they anyway?) believe is where I had to stop. The babys heart didn't stop and there are very simple and non-invasive methods nowadays to tell them what's going on in there. Belief is not required. The article was also very slim on some critical details like is her body actually deteriorating the same way Jahi's is? One had serious neck trauma with significant blood loss, the other had an embolism that caused the heart to stop. These things can have some pretty different physical effects on the body.

Right now it sounds to me like a bit of both corpse support and life support (by proxy) combined.

Lastly the mother apparently wanted the baby to live while she was still alive (14 weeks is usually beyond the point where an unwanted pregnancy is terminated and I'm willing to bet that she had been to see her OBGYN at least once since the pregnancy started to see that the baby was ok). Only the father is the one saying that she wanted the baby to die if she ended up in the condition that she is in and he has no proof of that. The father has a self-interest in ending the pregnancy and, like it or not, in every state in the union a father cannot legally terminate a pregnancy on his own to serve his own self interests, even if it is known for a fact that the baby is going to be born with some sort of defect and thus he doesn't want to support it he still has no say in the matter. This law is just an extension of that set of laws in that the state has taken over power of attorney for the mother when this type of situation comes up (which lets face it, is rare as it is).

Is that kind of messed up? Yes it is, but so is the entire situation.
 
2014-01-10 01:53:57 PM  

styckx: Brain fart.. Was thinking NAACP and ACLU came out..


Same questions continue to apply.
 
2014-01-10 01:55:14 PM  

Bunny Deville: Just... what the hell were they thinking giving the child a hamburger?


The kid was already obese. Clearly saying "no" wasn't a strength of the parents.
 
2014-01-10 02:23:19 PM  

Radioactive Ass: They (who is they anyway?) believe is where I had to stop. The babys heart didn't stop and there are very simple and non-invasive methods nowadays to tell them what's going on in there.


They is the family. Viable means not only alive at this minute, but survivable to live birth and beyond. The baby's heart is beating, yes. But so is the mother's, and she is dead. What is in question is the damage that was done to the baby during the mother's death. The fetus could have been deprived of oxygen for as long as an hour. The mother was not discovered immediately. The damage that was done in whatever time it was without oxygen is not yet known.

Radioactive Ass: The article was also very slim on some critical details


Here are some more. If you google, you'll find lots and lots more.

Link
Link
Link

Lastly the mother apparently wanted the baby to live while she was still alive (14 weeks is usually beyond the point where an unwanted pregnancy is terminated and I'm willing to bet that she had been to see her OBGYN at least once since the pregnancy started to see that the baby was ok). Only the father is the one saying that she wanted the baby to die if she ended up in the condition that she is in and he has no proof of that. The father has a self-interest in ending the pregnancy and, like it or not, in every state in the union a father cannot legally terminate a pregnancy on his own to serve his own self interests, even if it is known for a fact that the baby is going to be born with some sort of defect and thus he doesn't want to support it he still has no say in the matter. This law is just an extension of that set of laws in that the state has taken over power of attorney for the mother when this type of situation comes up (which lets face it, is rare as it is).

We do not only have the father's word. She was very clear about her end of life wishes not just with him but with her parents as well. The extended family is in agreement that support should end. Whether a father can legally terminate a pregnancy is irrelevant. The father would not be terminating a pregnancy. Doctors would not be terminating the pregnancy. No one would be terminating the pregnancy. The pregnancy would terminate naturally.

Texas law states that a pregnant woman may not be removed from life sustaining treatment. This is not applicable in this case because there is not a pregnant woman on life sustaining treatment. Life sustaining treatment allows a live person to continue being alive by the use of external devices. This woman is dead. The law says nothing about supporting a dead body in an attempt to incubate a baby. From my last link:

 But critics say the hospital may not be following the letter of the law, which states that "life-sustaining treatment" must be given to a pregnant patient; if she is brain-dead (versus in a coma or vegetative state), she is technically not alive.
As a medical ethics expert tells the Times: "The Texas Legislature can't require doctors to do the impossible and try to treat someone who's dead."
 
2014-01-10 05:56:36 PM  

Gyrfalcon: RoyFokker'sGhost: Also, IANAL, but from what i've heard, the $250K cap is only for 'potential earning' damages; emotional damages and punitive fees are still wide open.

You are correct. Punitive damages can go through the roof. And there's a potential for loss of consortium here, or whatever the equivalent is for children.


I didn't think California allowed loss-of-consortium claims made by parents for children.  Am I wrong?
 
2014-01-10 07:47:35 PM  

sovietski: Lachwen: I had a friend back in high school who was hit by a car.  After a day and a half they determined that there was blood actively flowing to less than a third of his brain.  His parents - god, his poor parents - had a long talk with the doctors about not only what his chances of survival were, but what, exactly, constituted "survival" in his case.  And at the end of that talk, they said their goodbyes, ordered the cessation of life support, and signed the papers to donate his organs.

Years later, I heard them explain their reasoning: that even though there was a chance that he would ultimately remain physically (and legally) alive, the damage to his brain was so extensive that the bright, ephemeral thing that made Charles  Charles was already gone.  Their son was not defined by his body, but by his sense of humor, his kindness, his curiosity, his dedication and honesty.  The body could have lived on, but the essence of their son was dead.

He was their only child.

/talking about Charles always kicks up the dust

An invisible ninja is chopping onions in my vicinity. So very sorry about your friend, but your second paragraph was very well-said and touching.

Couldn't imagine losing either (or both) of my children. You would have a hard time convincing me that life was worth living.

/has a big sad


I don't know how his parents made it through that.  I really don't.  When I saw them at the funeral...I couldn't tell if I was crying harder for Charles or for them.  They had all of hell in their eyes.

And that's why I refuse to scream at the family, even on a random board on the internet that they're unlikely to read.  They may be deluded and in denial so deep they'll probably never come out, but they're also going through a kind of emotional torture that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.  I won't add any extra vitriol to that.
 
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