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(SFGate)   Dead girl's condition improving, says lawyer   (sfgate.com) divider line 313
    More: Asinine, Jahi McMath, Arden McMath, feeding tube  
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11770 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Jan 2014 at 2:09 PM (35 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-09 02:33:40 PM

Mitch Taylor's Bro: thatboyoverthere: Also fark the hospital. "We accidentally killed your daughter so we're going to pull the plug on her LOL!"
/I feel for the family. Personally I would pull the plug but it's up to them.
//My mother says they would have pulled the plug eventually but the hospital decided now. So the family is never going to pull the plug just out of sheer defiance.
/// Also fark the hospital.

Pretty sure the hospital isn't LOLing about this. Mistakes DO happen, and they are going to have one hell of a malpractice suit on their hands, but the decision to take her off the ventilator was confirmed by multiple doctors, including a court-appointed neurologist.


Yup. They are covered on that end.. Malrpractice is another thing.  Although I'd love to believe we live in a world that anyone would understand any surgery no matter how minor could result in you dying. Even perfect doctors are not perfect. Mistakes happen.. Most mistakes can be fixed... Some can't.
 
2014-01-09 02:34:32 PM

nekom: Mitch Taylor's Bro: Unlike the Schiavo case, there isn't even a legal reason to keep her alive. That poor girl should be with God right now :-(

Schiavo is a whole different can of worms.  She was in a persistent vegetative state, that whole thing was highly debatable.  This poor girl is flat out absolutely brain dead and her brain tissue has probably already started to deteriorate.  There is absolutely not even a 1 in a trillion chance of a miracle.  To bring her back would be in all ways bringing back the dead.

But again, it's really hard to point fingers at a grieving family who refuses to accept this fact.


This is the epitome of "Better living through science".
 
2014-01-09 02:34:37 PM
I can't believe this happened from a tonsilectomy (or whatever). And that's all I've got to say about that.
 
2014-01-09 02:34:49 PM
ok - I have actually been following this (happening in my neck of the woods) and a couple of things:

1. this was NOT a "routine operation" - as Dallymo said, she had an adenotonsillectomy, uvulopalatopharyngoplasty and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates to deal with her sleep apnea (the family has never said why they didn't try to treat this with weight loss or other non-surgical procedures, like the use of a CPAP mask - an aggressive operation like this on a child is usually the last resort)

2. The family has been told repeatedly by 6 different doctors that she is brain dead (and that one does not "recover" from brain death)

3. The family's lawyer has repeatedly lied about the existence of facilities willing to accept and care for a corpse - the last one he claimed to express interest was out of NY run by a former beautician who claims this corpse just needs time to heal.

4. Post op - this family was in the room encouraging the girl to speak, eat and drink (specifically forbidden by the doctors as it might rupture her delicate stitches); additionally the grandmother admits suctioning blood out of the girl's mouth in post op but claimed it was ok - she knew what she was doing because she's a nurse (she's an LVN and has repeatedly exaggerated her licensing and training in the local media)

5. The family created a go fund me page for transport and treatment of this corpse (last I read they had over $50k in donations)

6. At least one doctor has testified that due to the brain inactivity (both brain and brain stem) the corpse is no longer regulating food, etc. (no reason it needs a feeding tube) and that the inside of the bowels are starting to slough off through stools.

Bottom line - this family is beyond grieving - they are parasitic scum who want to raise money for "the care" of their dead kid - they are playing on right to lifer's ignorance.  I just wonder how long they'll keep this charade up as the corpse is already starting to decay (under the skin and in the vital organs) and should be smelling funny soon. And really, you can buy a lot of neat stuff with $50k...

I know I went a little overboard but the news media just isn't reporting this properly (sorry)
 
2014-01-09 02:35:37 PM
You know... instead of her costing money they could make money with her and exercise her body at the same time.  Sure plenty of guys would pay good money to bang a warm body.
 
2014-01-09 02:36:47 PM
kardsunlimited.com

Dr. Henry Jones, Jr, pictured above, offered a different opinion, stating "She belongs in a mausoleum!"
 
2014-01-09 02:37:27 PM
www.wearysloth.com

"Very well, let me know if there is any change in his condition."
*hangs up*
"He's dead."
 
2014-01-09 02:38:47 PM

Daedalus27: Actually there may be winners if the family would face reality and let her go. There have to be dozens of sick children who could use her perfectly good organs and tissues out there who could benefit if they would accept she can't come back and give consent to donate her organs.


Another sad aspect of this case: she's been on a ventilator, but I don't think they've had her on a feeding tube until recently (that's probably why she's "improving"). But I bet a month without nourishment has taken a toll on her internal organs.
 
2014-01-09 02:38:47 PM
Mitch Taylor's Bro:
Like I said, my parents were there. My sister's brain was probably in better shape, but she had serious internal injuries, too. After three days of the news progressively getting worse, the doctor recommended pulling the plug and my parents agreed.

Just a little over a year ago I had to make an end of life decision for a friend. He was on a respirator, bleeding uncontrollably and an unstoppable mould infection was literally eating his lungs up. He was kept in a medical coma because he would be in unbearable pain otherwise.

As one of his best friends and his primary care giver we had discussed this eventuality. He was on a waiting list for a lung transplant but it just never came. I knew more than anything he would not want to have to live out what remaining time he had left slowly dying on a respirator. I called his closest friends and family into the hospital to say their goodbyes then ordered the doctors to discontinue life support. They disconnected the respirator and at that moment their entire focus was on keeping him comfortable. He never regained consciousness and passed away while his son and I stayed with him.

The reason I was his power of attorney was because he didn't want his kids to have to be the ones to give the order to terminate his life support and that's a very good idea. Even though I knew what I was doing was for the best, that it was his wishes, and that I would want the same thing done to me if I were in his place it was still the hardest thing I have ever had to do in my life. I can't even begin to imagine how much more difficult it would have to be to make the same decision for one of my children.

But I know that's what my children would want to, and my children know that's what I would want. These are discussions everyone should have with their family. Let everyone know what your final care wishes are and even better write them down. Give them to a lawyer. Put them in a will.

I can't fault the parents here, but their daughter is already gone. The only thankful thing is there's not enough of her brain left to even be aware of suffering. Their daughter lives only in their memories now and what's left in that hospital is essentially just a pet nervous system.

This is just a sad, terrible story all around.

And if there's any justice the first politician who tries to capitalise on this for political gain will die from explosive genital rot.
 
2014-01-09 02:39:39 PM

Dallymo: xanadian: So, I must've missed the article that explained how a f*#%ing routine operation like a tonsillectomy turned this girl into a vegetable.  Too much blood loss?  Crazy-ass brain-eating infection?  God was at His computer that day?

Adenotonsillectomy, uvulopalatopharyngoplasty and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates.  Too much blood loss post-op.


So... how *YOU* doin'?  ;)
 
2014-01-09 02:40:26 PM

Ghastly: And by "improving" we mean we've stabilized her condition so we can keep riding this cash potato indefinitely. Ka-ching! Ka-ching!

Or at least until the insurance company pulls the plug.


You and I are the insurance company....
 
2014-01-09 02:40:46 PM

shut_it_down: This case is a goldmine for the lawyers and the family, but it's important that her future medical bills are astronomical in order to reap the maximum benefits.


The family could actually be ruining their chances for a successful lawsuit.  The evidence of this case is the body and it's slowly being destroyed.  If a proper autopsy can't be preformed, how is the fmaily going to prove a case against the hospital and doctors?  Also, the defendants could make a case that any evidence found in a autopsy could have been the result of procedures performed after they turned over control of the corpse.
 
2014-01-09 02:42:21 PM

g4lt: Well, although the kid's a vegetable, I can't help thinking that the hospital that CAUSED THE FARKING BRAIN DEATH shouldn't have any more say in the care decisions, no matter how logical they're being.


Ms. McMath is not a "vegetable". A "vegetable", or someone in a persistent vegetative state, is alive. Ms. McMath is deceased.

Additionally, the cause of death is unknown, as the family's irrational insistence that the deceased Ms. McMath is alive has prevented any autopsy to determine the cause of death. Some information suggests that Ms. McMath's family encouraged her to talk very soon after her operation, in violation of post-operation instructions, and Ms. McMath's grandmother stated in an interview that she attempted to suction Ms. McMath's throat when bleeding began, which may have worsened the condition.

An anecdotal account claims that Ms. McMath was even given solid food by a family member after the surgery, but that remains entirely unverified (and, unfortunately, it cannot be verified now).
 
2014-01-09 02:44:37 PM

Ghastly: The reason I was his power of attorney was because he didn't want his kids to have to be the ones to give the order to terminate his life support and that's a very good idea. Even though I knew what I was doing was for the best, that it was his wishes, and that I would want the same thing done to me if I were in his place it was still the hardest thing I have ever had to do in my life. I can't even begin to imagine how much more difficult it would have to be to make the same decision for one of my children.

But I know that's what my children would want to, and my children know that's what I would want. These are discussions everyone should have with their family. Let everyone know what your final care wishes are and even better write them down. Give them to a lawyer. Put them in a will.


My parents have already had this talk with me and given me copies of their DNR orders, the originals of which are on file at their primary care physician's office. The only thing I would alter is use a living trust, not a will.

PS. You are a good, true friend for bearing such a burden.
PPS. Stupid allergies again!
 
2014-01-09 02:45:49 PM
Sounds to me like they're getting bad legal advice, and they shouldn't transfer her if they intend to sue for malpractice.
 
2014-01-09 02:46:26 PM

maltedmothball: nekom: Just an awful situation.  No winners here.

sure there's a winner, the scumbag lawyers bank account

/no offence meant to scumbags


Bears repeating.  Given the quote he gave (about getting the care she "should have gotten 28 days ago"), I'm waiting for the inevitable lawsuit on "letting her die" instead of saving her after the botched operation.
 
2014-01-09 02:46:43 PM

Girl On Couch: ok - I have actually been following this (happening in my neck of the woods) and a couple of things:

1. this was NOT a "routine operation" - as Dallymo said, she had an adenotonsillectomy, uvulopalatopharyngoplasty and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates to deal with her sleep apnea (the family has never said why they didn't try to treat this with weight loss or other non-surgical procedures, like the use of a CPAP mask - an aggressive operation like this on a child is usually the last resort)

2. The family has been told repeatedly by 6 different doctors that she is brain dead (and that one does not "recover" from brain death)

3. The family's lawyer has repeatedly lied about the existence of facilities willing to accept and care for a corpse - the last one he claimed to express interest was out of NY run by a former beautician who claims this corpse just needs time to heal.

4. Post op - this family was in the room encouraging the girl to speak, eat and drink (specifically forbidden by the doctors as it might rupture her delicate stitches); additionally the grandmother admits suctioning blood out of the girl's mouth in post op but claimed it was ok - she knew what she was doing because she's a nurse (she's an LVN and has repeatedly exaggerated her licensing and training in the local media)

5. The family created a go fund me page for transport and treatment of this corpse (last I read they had over $50k in donations)

6. At least one doctor has testified that due to the brain inactivity (both brain and brain stem) the corpse is no longer regulating food, etc. (no reason it needs a feeding tube) and that the inside of the bowels are starting to slough off through stools.

Bottom line - this family is beyond grieving - they are parasitic scum who want to raise money for "the care" of their dead kid - they are playing on right to lifer's ignorance.  I just wonder how long they'll keep this charade up as the corpse is already starting to decay (under ...


I'm not calling you a liar.. Actually I love this post. I just wish you linked sources (especially about the parents at her beside doing everything they aren't supposed to be doing)
 
2014-01-09 02:47:06 PM
There are also huge difference between "brain dead" , "persistent vegetative state" and coma.
Jahi is brain dead. That's not something you come back from. Ever.
 
2014-01-09 02:47:34 PM
Mitch Taylor's Bro:

Pretty sure the hospital isn't LOLing about this. Mistakes DO happen, and they are going to have one hell of a malpractice suit on their hands, but the decision to take her off the ventilator was confirmed by multiple doctors, including a court-appointed neurologist.

Was there actually a mistake that happened? As tragic as this is something bad shirt just happens and it's not really anyone's fault.
 
2014-01-09 02:49:03 PM
The sick part of me kind of hopes she does somehow magically recover, but of course her brain is completely fetid from the, you know, lack of blood. And then her idiot family has to care for that lump of organic matter for the rest of their idiot lives.

It's sad. It really is. But she's dead, let it go. Life is not precious, particularly when there's no quality of life.
 
2014-01-09 02:49:36 PM

Ghastly: Mitch Taylor's Bro:

Pretty sure the hospital isn't LOLing about this. Mistakes DO happen, and they are going to have one hell of a malpractice suit on their hands, but the decision to take her off the ventilator was confirmed by multiple doctors, including a court-appointed neurologist.

Was there actually a mistake that happened? As tragic as this is something bad shirt just happens and it's not really anyone's fault.


Legit details are sketchy but the hospital has gone on record as saying they wish they were allowed to speak about it in detail so they can deny all the misperceptions the girls family has created about the situation. Her medical records etc are under lock and key.
 
2014-01-09 02:50:35 PM
I'm not willing to judge parents who refuse to admit their kid is dead.

Mitch Taylor's Bro: My parents have already had this talk with me and given me copies of their DNR orders


I volunteer with patients and many have DNR bracelets on.  I've never asked them (seems inappropriate) but always wanted to.  What goes into the decision process that leads you to want to be DNR?  I get the "don't use extraordinary measures" bit if people are scared of being hooked up like this forever and I get the special scenarios of people who we should really just help and allow them to commit suicide.  I just don't get the mentality of older people who seem full of life saying "just let me go."  Maybe it's because I'm not religious -- this is all we get.
 
2014-01-09 02:54:19 PM
Every cent this family makes from suing the doctors that gave the initial operation will go to these doctors for keeping their little potato warm.

Stupid.
 
2014-01-09 02:54:21 PM

lennavan: I'm not willing to judge parents who refuse to admit their kid is dead.

Mitch Taylor's Bro: My parents have already had this talk with me and given me copies of their DNR orders

I volunteer with patients and many have DNR bracelets on.  I've never asked them (seems inappropriate) but always wanted to.  What goes into the decision process that leads you to want to be DNR?  I get the "don't use extraordinary measures" bit if people are scared of being hooked up like this forever and I get the special scenarios of people who we should really just help and allow them to commit suicide.  I just don't get the mentality of older people who seem full of life saying "just let me go."  Maybe it's because I'm not religious -- this is all we get.


My dad is that way.. He has told me numerous times if he has a heart attack to just let him die. He reasons

"I don't want to be taken on a "five farking thousand dollar" ambulance ride just to have half my face drooping, have to learn to walk again and hooked up to all sorts of shiat.. I love you but love you more for letting me pass as I am now and now a shell of my former self"
 
2014-01-09 02:54:47 PM

marsgwar: shut_it_down: This case is a goldmine for the lawyers and the family, but it's important that her future medical bills are astronomical in order to reap the maximum benefits.

The family could actually be ruining their chances for a successful lawsuit.  The evidence of this case is the body and it's slowly being destroyed.  If a proper autopsy can't be preformed, how is the fmaily going to prove a case against the hospital and doctors?  Also, the defendants could make a case that any evidence found in a autopsy could have been the result of procedures performed after they turned over control of the corpse.


I had heard this also, but that her body would "heal" and cover what damage was initially caused by the operation.  My guess is that the healing doesn't last long once the whole shebang starts to deteriorate.
 
2014-01-09 02:55:08 PM

Itchy92: And then her idiot family has to care for that lump of organic matter for the rest of their idiot lives.


Not that long, fortunately. Her heart and other organs will not last long, and infection is very likely. Soon enough she will be Truly Most Sincerely Dead. This is a good thing.

/she's dead now
//but you know what I mean
 
2014-01-09 02:55:15 PM
Tragic story, certainly. I wish there was someone close to that family that could help them realize she is dead. I've been there with a sibling who was brain dead. It is a nightmare. But you gotta let go.
 
2014-01-09 02:57:29 PM
lennavan:  I just don't get the mentality of older people who seem full of life saying "just let me go."  Maybe it's because I'm not religious -- this is all we get.

You live, you have a family, you have a career, you watch your kids grow and have families of their own, friends come into your life, friends go out of your life and if in your golden years you can say "You know, I've had a pretty damned good run if I go now I've got nothing to complain about".

And if you're living in a home with people who are on their last lap and you watch them all go before you and you realize some of them go bad. They have a stroke, or a heart attack that leaves them a mere shadow of what they were and linger on until the inevitable. They watch people suffer dementia and have everything they were stolen from them bit by bit until only a raving stranger is left inhabiting their body. Well a person can get to thinking there are worse things than living a good life and then dropping dead from a heart attack, much worse things. I've had a damn good run.
 
2014-01-09 03:01:52 PM

styckx: My dad is that way.. He has told me numerous times if he has a heart attack to just let him die. He reasons

"I don't want to be taken on a "five farking thousand dollar" ambulance ride just to have half my face drooping, have to learn to walk again and hooked up to all sorts of shiat.. I love you but love you more for letting me pass as I am now and now a shell of my former self"


No offense (and I actually mean that too) but would you summarize that as he's DNR because he doesn't know better?  I say that because my father in law had a heart attack, had the stent put in and now thanks to some lifestyle changes is healthier than he was before.  Also, half the face drooping is not a heart attack, that's a stroke and the long term symptoms of a stroke are very dependent upon how fast you treat it.  So he's giving up before he even knows whether or not he will be a shell of his former self.
 
2014-01-09 03:02:14 PM
I come from a long line of medical professionals. Most if not all of the older generation have DNRs. Their reasons are pretty much the same. To quote my mom, a RN:

"I've seen what happens when you live too long."
 
2014-01-09 03:02:23 PM

Ghastly: lennavan:  I just don't get the mentality of older people who seem full of life saying "just let me go."  Maybe it's because I'm not religious -- this is all we get.

You live, you have a family, you have a career, you watch your kids grow and have families of their own, friends come into your life, friends go out of your life and if in your golden years you can say "You know, I've had a pretty damned good run if I go now I've got nothing to complain about".

And if you're living in a home with people who are on their last lap and you watch them all go before you and you realize some of them go bad. They have a stroke, or a heart attack that leaves them a mere shadow of what they were and linger on until the inevitable. They watch people suffer dementia and have everything they were stolen from them bit by bit until only a raving stranger is left inhabiting their body. Well a person can get to thinking there are worse things than living a good life and then dropping dead from a heart attack, much worse things. I've had a damn good run.


Very, very well said.
 
2014-01-09 03:04:13 PM

Girl On Couch: 1. this was NOT a "routine operation" - as Dallymo said, she had an adenotonsillectomy, uvulopalatopharyngoplasty and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates to deal with her sleep apnea (the family has never said why they didn't try to treat this with weight loss or other non-surgical procedures, like the use of a CPAP mask - an aggressive operation like this on a child is usually the last resort)

2. The family has been told repeatedly by 6 different doctors that she is brain dead (and that one does not "recover" from brain death)

3. The family's lawyer has repeatedly lied about the existence of facilities willing to accept and care for a corpse - the last one he claimed to express interest was out of NY run by a former beautician who claims this corpse just needs time to heal.

4. Post op - this family was in the room encouraging the girl to speak, eat and drink (specifically forbidden by the doctors as it might rupture her delicate stitches); additionally the grandmother admits suctioning blood out of the girl's mouth in post op but claimed it was ok - she knew what she was doing because she's a nurse (she's an LVN and has repeatedly exaggerated her licensing and training in the local media)

5. The family created a go fund me page for transport and treatment of this corpse (last I read they had over $50k in donations)

6. At least one doctor has testified that due to the brain inactivity (both brain and brain stem) the corpse is no longer regulating food, etc. (no reason it needs a feeding tube) and that the inside of the bowels are starting to slough off through stools.

Bottom line - this family is beyond grieving - they are parasitic scum who want to raise money for "the care" of their dead kid - they are playing on right to lifer's ignorance. I just wonder how long they'll keep this charade up as the corpse is already starting to decay (under the skin and in the vital organs) and should be smelling funny soon. And really, you can ...


Much of this bears repeating. It's frustrating to see so many of the details being glossed over and dumbed down by the media, because a lot of people are coming away from the articles grossly disinformed.
 
2014-01-09 03:05:02 PM

lennavan: styckx: My dad is that way.. He has told me numerous times if he has a heart attack to just let him die. He reasons

"I don't want to be taken on a "five farking thousand dollar" ambulance ride just to have half my face drooping, have to learn to walk again and hooked up to all sorts of shiat.. I love you but love you more for letting me pass as I am now and now a shell of my former self"

No offense (and I actually mean that too) but would you summarize that as he's DNR because he doesn't know better?  I say that because my father in law had a heart attack, had the stent put in and now thanks to some lifestyle changes is healthier than he was before.  Also, half the face drooping is not a heart attack, that's a stroke and the long term symptoms of a stroke are very dependent upon how fast you treat it.  So he's giving up before he even knows whether or not he will be a shell of his former self.


Read what Ghastly said.  It's better articulated. I'm not talking about a minor heart attack that most people have..  No offense taken btw.. :)
 
2014-01-09 03:05:33 PM

nekom: it was also to remove tissue to treat sleep apnea


Well, screw getting that surgery. I'll stick with having air forced down my nose every night, thankyouverymuch.
 
2014-01-09 03:05:59 PM

lennavan: I'm not willing to judge parents who refuse to admit their kid is dead.

Mitch Taylor's Bro: My parents have already had this talk with me and given me copies of their DNR orders

I volunteer with patients and many have DNR bracelets on.  I've never asked them (seems inappropriate) but always wanted to.  What goes into the decision process that leads you to want to be DNR?  I get the "don't use extraordinary measures" bit if people are scared of being hooked up like this forever and I get the special scenarios of people who we should really just help and allow them to commit suicide.  I just don't get the mentality of older people who seem full of life saying "just let me go."  Maybe it's because I'm not religious -- this is all we get.


Most older people have seen with their own eyes the pain and suffering of many of their friends and loved ones after things go seriously south and the miracles of modern medicine get involved in earnest. I can understand why someone wouldn't want to go through that themselves after having seen it happen several times live and in person. Religion has nothing to do with it other than perhaps using "God" to justify resigning their destiny to whatever it is that fate has already chosen for them.

We are all going to die someday. All of us. A DNR is sort of a way that some people use to have some sort of feeling of final control over that fact of life, especially if they are not capable of having a say otherwise. Medical personnel are obligated by their code of ethics and by law to not stop trying to save you once they start if you are incapable of telling them otherwise.

I mean would you want to spend your end days drooling into a spit basin unable to move half of your body while some ugly looking intern changes your diaper three times a day? Is that really living or is it simply existing until something else kills you anyway?
 
2014-01-09 03:06:08 PM
She is the holy half dead and has been to underverse
 
2014-01-09 03:06:30 PM

Another Government Employee: Dallymo: xanadian: So, I must've missed the article that explained how a f*#%ing routine operation like a tonsillectomy turned this girl into a vegetable.  Too much blood loss?  Crazy-ass brain-eating infection?  God was at His computer that day?

Adenotonsillectomy, uvulopalatopharyngoplasty and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates.  Too much blood loss post-op.

In layman's terms: They reamed out half her throat and hit (probably) a carotid artery. By the time they could plug it, it was all over.


Doc is in the house.
...and thanxs, from a layman.
 
2014-01-09 03:06:31 PM

lennavan: styckx: My dad is that way.. He has told me numerous times if he has a heart attack to just let him die. He reasons

"I don't want to be taken on a "five farking thousand dollar" ambulance ride just to have half my face drooping, have to learn to walk again and hooked up to all sorts of shiat.. I love you but love you more for letting me pass as I am now and now a shell of my former self"

No offense (and I actually mean that too) but would you summarize that as he's DNR because he doesn't know better?  I say that because my father in law had a heart attack, had the stent put in and now thanks to some lifestyle changes is healthier than he was before.  Also, half the face drooping is not a heart attack, that's a stroke and the long term symptoms of a stroke are very dependent upon how fast you treat it.  So he's giving up before he even knows whether or not he will be a shell of his former self.


The problem is, you have no way of knowing and preparing for every medical possibility.  If you could, the document would be so long you'd be dead before they could find your wishes in that eventuality or they put you on a machine while they research your wishes, unfortunately, it's easier to keep you on the machine than it is to take it off if you didn't want to be there.

So you just go with a DNR and count it good.
 
2014-01-09 03:07:04 PM

Girl On Couch: ok - I have actually been following this (happening in my neck of the woods) and a couple of things:

1. this was NOT a "routine operation" - as Dallymo said, she had an adenotonsillectomy, uvulopalatopharyngoplasty and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates to deal with her sleep apnea (the family has never said why they didn't try to treat this with weight loss or other non-surgical procedures, like the use of a CPAP mask - an aggressive operation like this on a child is usually the last resort)

2. The family has been told repeatedly by 6 different doctors that she is brain dead (and that one does not "recover" from brain death)

3. The family's lawyer has repeatedly lied about the existence of facilities willing to accept and care for a corpse - the last one he claimed to express interest was out of NY run by a former beautician who claims this corpse just needs time to heal.

4. Post op - this family was in the room encouraging the girl to speak, eat and drink (specifically forbidden by the doctors as it might rupture her delicate stitches); additionally the grandmother admits suctioning blood out of the girl's mouth in post op but claimed it was ok - she knew what she was doing because she's a nurse (she's an LVN and has repeatedly exaggerated her licensing and training in the local media)

5. The family created a go fund me page for transport and treatment of this corpse (last I read they had over $50k in donations)

6. At least one doctor has testified that due to the brain inactivity (both brain and brain stem) the corpse is no longer regulating food, etc. (no reason it needs a feeding tube) and that the inside of the bowels are starting to slough off through stools.

Bottom line - this family is beyond grieving - they are parasitic scum who want to raise money for "the care" of their dead kid - they are playing on right to lifer's ignorance.  I just wonder how long they'll keep this charade up as the corpse is already starting to decay (under ...


The saddest thing? These surgeries create copious amounts of scar tissue that, when fully healed, can cause more obstructions than prior to the surgeries.

/Voice of experience. Had the same procedures. Would NEVER go through it again.
// Ended up on CPAP anyway.
 
2014-01-09 03:07:36 PM
What the headline made me think of:

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-01-09 03:07:40 PM

monoski: Ambitwistor: Was she transferred to a better hospital where her condition was upgraded to "alive"?

Heard on the radio the other day: The transfer paperwork was filled out for the transfer of a corpse.


The transfer went this way: Hospital > Alameda County Coroner > Mother > Other facility.

When you get custody from the coroner, that should be your first hint.
 
2014-01-09 03:08:25 PM

nekom: Just an awful situation.  No winners here.


As usual, it will be the lawyers who will be the winners.
 
2014-01-09 03:09:26 PM

lennavan: I'm not willing to judge parents who refuse to admit their kid is dead.

Mitch Taylor's Bro: My parents have already had this talk with me and given me copies of their DNR orders

I volunteer with patients and many have DNR bracelets on.  I've never asked them (seems inappropriate) but always wanted to.  What goes into the decision process that leads you to want to be DNR?  I get the "don't use extraordinary measures" bit if people are scared of being hooked up like this forever and I get the special scenarios of people who we should really just help and allow them to commit suicide.  I just don't get the mentality of older people who seem full of life saying "just let me go."  Maybe it's because I'm not religious -- this is all we get.


Well, if you read up-thread a bit, my parents watched my sister rapidly decline over three days in a hospital ICU, then agreed to have her unplugged. That's ancient history (happened in the late 70's).

More recently, they cared for my great-aunt, who had bad alzheimer's. Eventually, they had to put her in a convalescent home because they couldn't care for her on their own. That gave them almost three years of insight into what goes on in places like that. They still visit and bring flowers occasionally, even though my great aunt died almost 15 years ago. But they decided that if they were ever in a situation where they might be reduced to a mere shell of their former selves (more than just the ravages of time, mind you), that they'd rather go with dignity than attempt an expensive procedure that, at best, would greatly reduce their quality of life.

They are in their mid-80's and in very good shape for their age. But they feel that they've led good lives and don't want to spend the last bits of it hooked up to machines or completely bed-ridden if some medical procedure can only bring them part-way back to health. I am also their only surviving child, and I think they really don't want to be a burden on me.

I love my folks and really want them to be healthy AND happy for as long as possible, but if this is their wish, I will suck it up an honor it.
 
2014-01-09 03:09:30 PM

Girl On Couch: 5. The family created a go fund me page for transport and treatment of this corpse (last I read they had over $50k in donations)


I'm actually surprised that the amount isn't higher (heck, Fark raised, what, $2500 in the Buy Joe Biden a TransAm campaign purely on the basis of fun?).  Facebook and news sites are rife with impassioned pleas, with lots of capital letters and exclamation points, to let this child "live."

Websleuths has a pretty good discussion thread going (some medical folks weighing in, lots of good links to court documents, including Dr. Fisher's brain death examination report and Dr. Fiori's declaration regarding bodily deterioration since the child was pronounced brain dead).
 
2014-01-09 03:09:41 PM

namegoeshere: "I've seen what happens when you live too long."

Ghastly: you watch them all go before you and you realize some of them go bad.


Hmm yeah, okay I get that, that makes good sense.  Kind of a the benefit of maybe continuing on healthy no longer outweighs the ever increasing risks of going out poorly.

Thanks.
 
2014-01-09 03:09:43 PM

Ghastly: And by "improving" we mean we've stabilized her condition so we can keep riding this cash potato indefinitely. Ka-ching! Ka-ching!

Or at least until the insurance company pulls the plug.


From another article I've read, they've got a donation fund going, and it's already well ahead.  She'll be kept ... functioning ... for quite some time.

It's sick; our "reverence for life" is way out of control.
 
2014-01-09 03:13:11 PM

lennavan: styckx: My dad is that way.. He has told me numerous times if he has a heart attack to just let him die. He reasons

"I don't want to be taken on a "five farking thousand dollar" ambulance ride just to have half my face drooping, have to learn to walk again and hooked up to all sorts of shiat.. I love you but love you more for letting me pass as I am now and now a shell of my former self"

No offense (and I actually mean that too) but would you summarize that as he's DNR because he doesn't know better?  I say that because my father in law had a heart attack, had the stent put in and now thanks to some lifestyle changes is healthier than he was before.  Also, half the face drooping is not a heart attack, that's a stroke and the long term symptoms of a stroke are very dependent upon how fast you treat it.  So he's giving up before he even knows whether or not he will be a shell of his former self.


My mother is a hospice worker and I'm her POA, so she's been pretty clear about why she's a DNR. In older patients, the efforts to revive them from something even as "simple" as a heart attack often cause serious damage. A cracked rib cage during compressions and now you're alive, but in horrible, unnecessary pain that will probably lead to dying of pneumonia. There are many people who feel the same way about cancer treatments. Chemo is awful. It's not living - it's suffering through being poisoned to delay death. Sometimes it works, a lot of times it doesn't, and saps the energy from you to live your remaining years pain-free. I believe people who have a DNR are people who are more concerned with their quality of life than just being alive. From what my mother tells me, they tend to be better informed about the reality of being resuscitated than those who don't have a DNR.
 
2014-01-09 03:14:08 PM
My God, what a horror show. Does anyone else wonder if they just brought her home and we're watching a real-time re-enactment of "A Rose For Emily"? I can understand the family not wanting to let go; I can't imagine the shock and horror they must have gone through when their daughter collapsed and died. The cognitive dissonance in being told that someone is dead when they still look like they're breathing has got to be huge, especially since this wasn't a surgery known for being particularly dangerous. But the bottom-feeders who are encouraging them and confusing the issue with stories of people in comas and vegetative states who woke up ... I can't believe those people can look at themselves in the mirror. All they've done to this family is whip them into a state where instead of grieving and burying their daughter, they're going to watch her body decompose in front of them while trying to will her back to life. Whom does that help, exactly?

As I've said before, I'm probably 95% more pro-life than most of Fark, but there's nothing pro-life about this. Her life is over, it's done -- she died back in December, and there have certainly been enough second, third and fourth opinions to verify that the diagnosis of brain death wasn't in error. From the Catholic perspective, brain death means her soul is already with God and her body should be laid to rest.
 
2014-01-09 03:14:29 PM

Sgt.Zim: Ghastly: And by "improving" we mean we've stabilized her condition so we can keep riding this cash potato indefinitely. Ka-ching! Ka-ching!

Or at least until the insurance company pulls the plug.

From another article I've read, they've got a donation fund going, and it's already well ahead.  She'll be kept ... functioning ... for quite some time.

It's sick; our "reverence for life" is way out of control.


Who the fark is donating all this cash to keep a corpse "alive"? That's even more sick.. What the hell is wrong with this country?
 
2014-01-09 03:14:46 PM

Dallymo: Dr. Fiori's


Oops...Flori, not Fiori.
 
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