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(Telegraph)   "We need to build a United States of Europe with the Commission as government and two chambers - the European Parliament and a "Senate" of Member States"   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 28
    More: Unlikely, United States of Europe, European Parliament, United States, Europe, European Commission, Europeans, Senate, Nigel Farage  
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564 clicks; posted to Politics » on 09 Jan 2014 at 9:58 AM (35 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



28 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-01-09 10:04:11 AM
*crickets*

Oh.  European thread.

nvm
 
2014-01-09 10:05:08 AM
Too much history.
 
2014-01-09 10:06:35 AM
Fat chance in hell of that happening. Most of those countries are already sick of having their fishing quotas and other stuff set by other countries, aren't they?
 
2014-01-09 10:08:28 AM
Emulate the American political process? Really? After witnessing the last 6 years?
 
2014-01-09 10:09:09 AM
Do it.Give Europe the federalism problem we have. Share the misery.
 
2014-01-09 10:10:43 AM
 
2014-01-09 10:13:22 AM
This aint going to happen in my lifetime but I would enjoy to watch the political wranglings needed to keep the large developed countries.... well mainly Germany, happy with ceding over some sovernty while aswaging the smaller developing countries fear of being eaten alive by the Gerrmans and French.  It really would be like watching the US constitution being written.  Same problems, same pressures.
 
2014-01-09 10:19:28 AM

Saiga410: This aint going to happen in my lifetime but I would enjoy to watch the political wranglings needed to keep the large developed countries.... well mainly Germany, happy with ceding over some sovernty while aswaging the smaller developing countries fear of being eaten alive by the Gerrmans and French.  It really would be like watching the US constitution being written.  Same problems, same pressures.


I've made this comment before.

The problem with the EU is that they got a bureaucracy before they had an actual representative government, or any popular support for a nation-building process.

With all due respect to Jean Monnet, there was no European equivalent to The Federalist Papers in the 1950s.
 
2014-01-09 10:21:36 AM

Smoking GNU: Emulate the American political process? Really? After witnessing the last 6 years?


Yeah, but they have the good and the bad of the previous 219 years to review as well.
 
2014-01-09 10:25:25 AM
It will be a cold day in hell before we let that happen!
 
2014-01-09 10:29:17 AM
Isn't there a fairly large movement m Europe to break up  the EU, or at least substantially reduce its power?
 
2014-01-09 10:44:07 AM

Smoking GNU: Emulate the American political process? Really? After witnessing the last 6 years?


There is no pan European version of the Republican party, so they're good.
 
2014-01-09 11:51:32 AM
Who will defend the USE? France?

K....good luck!
 
2014-01-09 12:31:00 PM
*Checks "Journalism 101"*

The Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by *another* country. The Daily Telegraph is read by the people who think it is.
 
2014-01-09 12:50:32 PM
Apparently Europe hasn't been paying attention to that system has been working here.
 
2014-01-09 01:21:51 PM

FrancoFile: Saiga410: This aint going to happen in my lifetime but I would enjoy to watch the political wranglings needed to keep the large developed countries.... well mainly Germany, happy with ceding over some sovernty while aswaging the smaller developing countries fear of being eaten alive by the Gerrmans and French.  It really would be like watching the US constitution being written.  Same problems, same pressures.

I've made this comment before.

The problem with the EU is that they got a bureaucracy before they had an actual representative government, or any popular support for a nation-building process.

With all due respect to Jean Monnet, there was no European equivalent to The Federalist Papers in the 1950s.


So how the fark does that work?

How do you appoint bureaucrats without a government?
How are those bureaucrats held accountable?
How can average voters say "Hey, I think you're doing something wrong and I want you to fix it"?
Who decides what laws should be made?  (And how do voters at least in theory get back to them and say "Woah, bad law.")
And who enforces it?
 
2014-01-09 01:33:28 PM
I did not read TFA yet(but I will), but wanted to say this.  Yes they should either do this one European government thing or abolish the Euro.  It is a horrible mess to have one currency but no consistent policy to manage it.
 
2014-01-09 01:54:24 PM

meyerkev: FrancoFile: Saiga410: This aint going to happen in my lifetime but I would enjoy to watch the political wranglings needed to keep the large developed countries.... well mainly Germany, happy with ceding over some sovernty while aswaging the smaller developing countries fear of being eaten alive by the Gerrmans and French.  It really would be like watching the US constitution being written.  Same problems, same pressures.

I've made this comment before.

The problem with the EU is that they got a bureaucracy before they had an actual representative government, or any popular support for a nation-building process.

With all due respect to Jean Monnet, there was no European equivalent to The FederaThe list Papers in the 1950s.

So how the fark does that work?

How do you appoint bureaucrats without a government?
How are those bureaucrats held accountable?
How can average voters say "Hey, I think you're doing something wrong and I want you to fix it"?
Who decides what laws should be made?  (And how do voters at least in theory get back to them and say "Woah, bad law.")
And who enforces it?


That's the problem; it's several steps removed from the average voter right now.

Eg: I live in East Bromptonwichshireton and vote for a member of the UK parliament; or I live in Crecy-sur-Seine-deux-Eglises, France; or maybe Gluckenstiernamschtiefffort, Germany, or Hrzstackstyznam, Hungary.  Assuming my MP is in the majority party, his party forms a government and appoints a minister for EU affairs.  That guy meets with his counterparts from the other EU countries in a smoke-filled room, and they hire a staff who write arcane regulations and translate them into 20 languages.

I can complain to my MP if something is screwed up, but its not like he has any authority to make something happen in Brussels.  Or that he even knows who to call, or that he speaks the same language as whoever runs that particular office.
 
2014-01-09 02:04:22 PM

bk3k: I did not read TFA yet(but I will), but wanted to say this.  Yes they should either do this one European government thing or abolish the Euro.  It is a horrible mess to have one currency but no consistent policy to manage it.


Exactly. It will never work to have a single monetary policy but not a single fiscal one. Either be a bunch of individual countries as before or a single, large country going forward. Nothing in the middle will work in the long-term.

/subby
 
2014-01-09 02:42:07 PM
This is not a repeat from 1946...
 
2014-01-09 02:42:12 PM
"Some day, following the example of the United States of America, there will be a United States of Europe"
attributed to George Washington.
 
2014-01-09 03:03:41 PM
Dear Europe: 

DON'T DO IT! The US attempted to create a democratic government of exactly the same nature, but given that A: geographic cultural distribution is too wide, and B: the government was founded by crooks and liars, it is doomed to be a constant quagmire of absolute and utter failure. 

Sincerely,
The rest of the world.
 
2014-01-09 03:05:39 PM

Smoking GNU: Emulate the American political process? Really? After witnessing the last 6 years?


Say what you want, but we have been one of the most stable countries in the world for the past 225 years or so, with the exception of the civil war and such.

Most European countries have undergone some major political upheaval, totally changing government structure or having massive power rebalancing multiple times since the US Constitution was ratified.  Pretty common occurrence prior to that as well.
 
2014-01-09 03:20:54 PM

LrdPhoenix: Smoking GNU: Emulate the American political process? Really? After witnessing the last 6 years?

Say what you want, but we have been one of the most stable countries in the world for the past 225 years or so, with the exception of the civil war and such.

Most European countries have undergone some major political upheaval, totally changing government structure or having massive power rebalancing multiple times since the US Constitution was ratified.  Pretty common occurrence prior to that as well.


Just a couple of examples:

France has gone from Absolute Monarchy to Constitutional Monarchy to Republic to Empire to Absolute Monarchy to Empire to Constitutional Monarchy to Republic and then several successive republics, the current of which is the Fifth Republic.

Germany didn't even exist until 1815 when the various separate principalities/kingdoms/duchies/etc. in the area joined together in the German Confederation, which then was properly unified into a single country with the German Empire, then they changed to a Republic, then an Empire again, and then they were split down the middle for 45 years before reunifying as a Republic again.
 
2014-01-09 03:38:46 PM
The United States succeeded -- at least for now? -- in part because people thought of themselves as citizens of the United State first and as citizens of Massachusetts, or Virginia, or Florida second.

The only way a United States of Europe could succeed would be if people can think of themselves as Europeans first and then as Englishmen or Italians or Germans second. I'm not sure that's realistic, at least for the foreseeable future.
 
2014-01-09 04:31:57 PM

bostonguy: The United States succeeded -- at least for now? -- in part because people thought of themselves as citizens of the United State first and as citizens of Massachusetts, or Virginia, or Florida second.

The only way a United States of Europe could succeed would be if people can think of themselves as Europeans first and then as Englishmen or Italians or Germans second. I'm not sure that's realistic, at least for the foreseeable future.


Wasn't the case in the beginning.  Heck, see Robert E Lee.  It took most of a century to get from "The United States are" to "The United States is" and a decade to get the Constitution.

/And now we're back to "These United States", so that's nice.
 
2014-01-09 11:10:48 PM
They need to. The major powers of the world are going to be large, super-economies including the US, China, and India. Europe needs to stop with this microstate business and unify if it wishes to compete and be relevant. These half measures they are in now aren't any better than the Articles of Confederation in the US. We finally learned we had to fix that to be functional.
 
2014-01-10 10:27:09 PM
You know who else wanted a United Europe?
 
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