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(CBS News)   Pope Francis eliminates "monsignor" honorific for priests, says that they should not have any titles, especially "prime suspect"   (cbsnews.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, prime suspect, Pope Paul VI, Holy Father, titles, Landmark decision  
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7684 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Jan 2014 at 10:49 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-09 03:36:23 PM  

Sybarite: Do they still get to keep Curate, Prefect, Canon, Lama, and Patriarch? I mean, depending on level.


You sound old.

I liked that Monks would brave unspeakable dangers, attain mastery over their physical/mental/spiritual aspects, defeat equally powerful peers to advance in their orders, and gain the ability to kill with a touch... and that upon ascending to the ultimate pinnacle of badassery they were entitled to be called "Grandmaster of Flowers".
 
2014-01-09 03:45:09 PM  

Far Cough: "Dude, I am not sure what you want. I clearly explained that the CC is NOT McD, and that any comparison to McD is very shortsighted. You can start comparing them when McD starts instructing people on how to live their lives, shapes international policy to the extent that the CC has, runs 25% of healthcare organizations around the world, and has that many followers. If you can show me an organization like that that also makes the groundbreaking kind of changes that you expect, then I will shut up. Furthermore, I do not think the Pope is dragging his feet (I firmly believe that there are steps being taken as we speak), and it does not mean we are okay with what is going on. "

Whoops, sorry I missed that entire paragraph.  However, it doesn't answer whether, and why, you would prevent civilian law enforcement from acting in case and not the other...


Copied from my statements further upthread:

Yes, this is a legal issue that should be in the hands of local authorities. But that is part of the problem, the fact that most governments had given the CC carte blanche to do as they please within their jurisdictions. So I do think it is important that the Pope, as the head of a supposedly monolithic organization that has protected people who commit these atrocities, has a strong stance against pedophiles and punishes them accordingly within the church. Of course criminal punishment should be done by local authorities.

Feel free to reread my statements. Directed to you, may I add.

Copied your questions:

You're saying it's okay for the head of one huge org to continue the footdragging of his predecessors, but not okay for the other?  (Assuming in this hypothetical case that McD's just got a new CEO too.)

WHY?  Why would you say that?  And again, why is it up only to the organization and NOT to the real criminal authorities?


When I see "questions' like these, where you state your understanding of what I said, it certainly looks and feel like you're putting words in my mouth.

Is your answer "because I revere the Catholic religion and its church should be completely off limits to civilian law enforcement"?   THIS IS A QUESTION TO YOU, NOT ME PUTTING WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH.  I am offering this wording only as a courtesy to you because you haven't answered my original question.

You are making assumptions about my position in regards to CC. Yes, I am not what most people call a "good catholic", there are elements of the CC I despise. But I can also see that this guy is at least trying to do something positive. If that makes me naive, so be it.
 
2014-01-09 03:55:03 PM  

jrodr018: Far Cough: "Dude, I am not sure what you want. I clearly explained that the CC is NOT McD, and that any comparison to McD is very shortsighted. You can start comparing them when McD starts instructing people on how to live their lives, shapes international policy to the extent that the CC has, runs 25% of healthcare organizations around the world, and has that many followers. If you can show me an organization like that that also makes the groundbreaking kind of changes that you expect, then I will shut up. Furthermore, I do not think the Pope is dragging his feet (I firmly believe that there are steps being taken as we speak), and it does not mean we are okay with what is going on. "

Whoops, sorry I missed that entire paragraph.  However, it doesn't answer whether, and why, you would prevent civilian law enforcement from acting in case and not the other...

Copied from my statements further upthread:

Yes, this is a legal issue that should be in the hands of local authorities. But that is part of the problem, the fact that most governments had given the CC carte blanche to do as they please within their jurisdictions. So I do think it is important that the Pope, as the head of a supposedly monolithic organization that has protected people who commit these atrocities, has a strong stance against pedophiles and punishes them accordingly within the church. Of course criminal punishment should be done by local authorities.

Feel free to reread my statements. Directed to you, may I add.

Copied your questions:

You're saying it's okay for the head of one huge org to continue the footdragging of his predecessors, but not okay for the other?  (Assuming in this hypothetical case that McD's just got a new CEO too.)

WHY?  Why would you say that?  And again, why is it up only to the organization and NOT to the real criminal authorities?

When I see "questions' like these, where you state your understanding of what I said, it certainly looks and feel like you're putting word ...


By the way, your questions are examples of loaded questions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question
 
2014-01-09 03:59:58 PM  
My Colombian wife, who was almost a nun, the most die hard of Catholics, reported a priest making advances at her 19 year old sister, was rebuked quite harshly by a bishop for making such "allegations" decided to stay away from her favorite cathedral, and start visiting other faiths, and was amazed what she found, and the amount of Colombians flocking in droves to them.

The church is scared that people are actually discovering other religions and liking them.  South America has long been the farmland of the church, and while still strong, it is starting to show signs of becoming barren.

I know times are a changing because in my families small town there are new churches all over the place.

The lady below.  A Lady Baptist minister with a large flock in South America....

pibmanizales.com
 
2014-01-09 04:16:48 PM  

Far Cough: Uh, bull puckey. Feelie-feelie good things like "hey the gays ain't so bad" and "titles aren't important" are window dressing, they're "baby steps" in the same way as redecorating the dining room while the kitchen's on fire.

If he hopes to redeem the institution it must begin with endings its systemic criminality. And I don't much care about funky investments or weird political dealings. The focus must remain on the molestation and sex crimes. There is NO room for handling anything "internally" any more.


There is no way to get both of these things. A Catholic Church that opens itself up to criminal prosecution of sex offending priests will be purging gay priests, because they are one and the same.

Yeah, yeah, I hear it already: "gays aren't pedophiles whine whine". Stuff it. In these cases, they are. There have been girl altar attendants since the 70s. Priests were actively involved in all-girl schools far longer. But the only real issue involving girls is the Magdalene crap in Ireland. In the many cases everywhere else, its all men preying on boys.

When the sex offense cases are so overwhelmingly involving men and boys, it's not just a pedophile problem, it's a gay pedophile problem.
 
2014-01-09 04:18:34 PM  
Reason #105 why the Catholic Church is not Christian:  Matt. 23:9.
 
2014-01-09 04:21:27 PM  

HailRobonia: meat0918:
Raised Roman Catholic, almost became a priest, became an atheist and computer scientist instead.

You should join the First Church of Christ Computer Programmer.


Or The Church of Jesus Christ Tax Accountant. (Getting you right with The Father)
 
2014-01-09 04:25:29 PM  

gerrymander: Far Cough: Uh, bull puckey. Feelie-feelie good things like "hey the gays ain't so bad" and "titles aren't important" are window dressing, they're "baby steps" in the same way as redecorating the dining room while the kitchen's on fire.

If he hopes to redeem the institution it must begin with endings its systemic criminality. And I don't much care about funky investments or weird political dealings. The focus must remain on the molestation and sex crimes. There is NO room for handling anything "internally" any more.

There is no way to get both of these things. A Catholic Church that opens itself up to criminal prosecution of sex offending priests will be purging gay priests, because they are one and the same.

Yeah, yeah, I hear it already: "gays aren't pedophiles whine whine". Stuff it. In these cases, they are. There have been girl altar attendants since the 70s. Priests were actively involved in all-girl schools far longer. But the only real issue involving girls is the Magdalene crap in Ireland. In the many cases everywhere else, its all men preying on boys.

When the sex offense cases are so overwhelmingly involving men and boys, it's not just a pedophile problem, it's a gay pedophile problem.


So, is Jerry Sandusky gay? Or did he prey on little boys because for him, they were easier to access?
 
2014-01-09 05:06:43 PM  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City  is why they get to solve their own internal problems... if something that's not outside the statute of limitations comes to the attention of local authorities (in any country), by all means, priests aren't diplomats.  but no, a third party like the un is not going to put sanctions on the vatican over this.  so let them fix their own business...  and they ARE working on it.  you want to complain about someone not cooperating, complain about the ones who were involved in the cover-ups.

just remember, if they get booted from the church, those records they supposedly have are pretty much guaranteed to get lost in a basement somewhere.
 
2014-01-09 05:12:02 PM  

gerrymander: Far Cough: Uh, bull puckey. Feelie-feelie good things like "hey the gays ain't so bad" and "titles aren't important" are window dressing, they're "baby steps" in the same way as redecorating the dining room while the kitchen's on fire.

If he hopes to redeem the institution it must begin with endings its systemic criminality. And I don't much care about funky investments or weird political dealings. The focus must remain on the molestation and sex crimes. There is NO room for handling anything "internally" any more.

There is no way to get both of these things. A Catholic Church that opens itself up to criminal prosecution of sex offending priests will be purging gay priests, because they are one and the same.

Yeah, yeah, I hear it already: "gays aren't pedophiles whine whine". Stuff it. In these cases, they are. There have been girl altar attendants since the 70s. Priests were actively involved in all-girl schools far longer. But the only real issue involving girls is the Magdalene crap in Ireland. In the many cases everywhere else, its all men preying on boys.

When the sex offense cases are so overwhelmingly involving men and boys, it's not just a pedophile problem, it's a gay pedophile problem.


Bullshiat. Sandusky, and almost all the other child-molesters identify as heterosexual, no matter the gender of the kids they assault.
 
2014-01-09 06:11:25 PM  

HAMMERTOE: TV's Vinnie: I'll bet she's shooting cinderblocks from her ass every time she hears of the latest thing coming out of Rome these days.

Don't forget, to the church, the pope is the living, breathing mouth of god. He is called the Holy See because he can see things other men can't, do things other men can't do...

[www.syffal.com image 184x237]


He is not and that's not why.
 
2014-01-09 06:29:45 PM  

PsiChick: The My Little Pony Killer: So what's he doing about the priests who have committed crimes and been moved to different locations? You know, the ones whose crimes the church knows all about, whose statute of limitations have been reached in the real world, and who Pope Hopey Change promised to do something about? What about that?

/in before cries of "stop not sucking off the pope! what's wrong with you!"

A) Uh...I think in that bolded sentence you've got the Papacy confused with a democracy.

B) You want to try to enact change in a major organized religion? You go ahead and try, let me know how long it takes...


www.bonappetit.com
 
2014-01-09 06:41:09 PM  
jrod, maybe we're talking at cross purposes.  I am in no way saying Francis should NOT do whatever he can to root out the problems and that it should be solely in the hands of the police.  I'm saying it can NOT any longer be limited to an "internal investigation" if any justice is to be done, and that furthermore it's outrageous it's remained internal this long.

You wrote, "I would rather have a Pope that measures and strategizes about his next steps rather than one who cannot see further than his next steps."

That's all well and good, but that's why I asked you, "but jrod, why should that (the 'strategized next steps') be his hands, or those of his organization?"  This meant, ENTIRELY in their hands, since this was referring back to my earlier realization, the one to which you had been responding, that "it would appear that some 3rd party like the UN should be charged with investigating".

That's when I asked you how you'd deal with a McD's CEO in a similar position.  Maybe my reading comprehension is poor today, but I'm still not clear on whether or not you would accept the idea of an independent 3rd party investigation of the church's misconduct.  Yes, yes, in ADDITION to Francis strategizing his next steps oh so carefully and, you know, strategically.  No one said he should stop trying.

You said, "Of course criminal punishment should be done by local authorities," but it was unclear to me whether this included the active investigation or just the "punishment" phase only AFTER guilty parties were handed over by the internal church investigators.

If you have no issue with a 3rd party investigative team empowered to root out the issues across the various parts of the church, even as the church does its own thing, then never mind, then I've been wasting both our time.  I thought I had phrased things clearly enough but perhaps not.
 
2014-01-09 11:06:13 PM  

Far Cough: jrod, maybe we're talking at cross purposes.  I am in no way saying Francis should NOT do whatever he can to root out the problems and that it should be solely in the hands of the police.  I'm saying it can NOT any longer be limited to an "internal investigation" if any justice is to be done, and that furthermore it's outrageous it's remained internal this long.

You wrote, "I would rather have a Pope that measures and strategizes about his next steps rather than one who cannot see further than his next steps."

That's all well and good, but that's why I asked you, "but jrod, why should that (the 'strategized next steps') be his hands, or those of his organization?"  This meant, ENTIRELY in their hands, since this was referring back to my earlier realization, the one to which you had been responding, that "it would appear that some 3rd party like the UN should be charged with investigating".

That's when I asked you how you'd deal with a McD's CEO in a similar position.  Maybe my reading comprehension is poor today, but I'm still not clear on whether or not you would accept the idea of an independent 3rd party investigation of the church's misconduct.  Yes, yes, in ADDITION to Francis strategizing his next steps oh so carefully and, you know, strategically.  No one said he should stop trying.

You said, "Of course criminal punishment should be done by local authorities," but it was unclear to me whether this included the active investigation or just the "punishment" phase only AFTER guilty parties were handed over by the internal church investigators.

If you have no issue with a 3rd party investigative team empowered to root out the issues across the various parts of the church, even as the church does its own thing, then never mind, then I've been wasting both our time.  I thought I had phrased things clearly enough but perhaps not.


I am not sure how much good the UN would do. I think that local authorities should be able to handle most cases, while systemic problems can be handled by INTERPOL or some other group. To be honest, I am not sure if or how it could be done or even who could do it, but I'd be for (and in the past have called for) a full investigation of the practices of CC when it comes to pedophilia. I am not sure if moving a priest from one parish to another qualifies or compares to actively hiding evidence or silencing witnesses. I think it is a complex issue that would require more sober and qualified minds than mine, but I hope that that is the direction we are heading.

Anyway, beer awaits, good night!
 
2014-01-10 09:04:50 PM  

tlars699: So, is Jerry Sandusky gay? Or did he prey on little boys because for him, they were easier to access?


Classic closet case.
 
2014-01-11 02:12:53 AM  

gerrymander: tlars699: So, is Jerry Sandusky gay? Or did he prey on little boys because for him, they were easier to access?

Classic closet case.


no he is just bi
 
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