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(CBS News)   Pope Francis eliminates "monsignor" honorific for priests, says that they should not have any titles, especially "prime suspect"   (cbsnews.com) divider line 166
    More: Interesting, prime suspect, Pope Paul VI, Holy Father, titles, Landmark decision  
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7624 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Jan 2014 at 10:49 AM (36 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-09 12:37:02 PM

anuran: Laobaojun: Osato: Ghastly: Something tells me this new pope has an impending date with serious illness in his near future.

He made it this far. Something tells me he's really, really good at not getting ill.

I wonder if being a Jesuit has anything to do with it.

/This will be the last Jesuit pope for centuries.

They don't let stupid people become Jesuits. And stupid people at that level don't survive the Dirty War.
When he named himself "Francis" and I found out he was a Jesuit my first thought was "Counter Reformation time. Wonder if he's going to bring in a team of SAS Accountants and a headsman"


The Counter Reformation had a split character, and the Jesuits and other moderates were drowned out by the rabid conservatives who felt that Luther had succeeded because the church wasn't conservative enough.  Those nut jobs got the upperhand, trampled on the moderates because they weren't 'fanatic' enough and reinforced the schism with their excesses and purity tests.

/Kind of like the Republican party.
 
2014-01-09 12:38:24 PM
He might be a nice guy, but that doesn't change the fact that his god isn't real.

And that's really the problem with all religions.  They're telling people to believe in (and waste their money on) a load of bullshiat.
 
2014-01-09 12:40:26 PM

flondrix: Laobaojun: Last time there was this degree of change in the Catholic church, in my town there was a mass 'walk of shame' from the Catholic church to the Episcopalian church.

Which change was that?  If you are protesting the mass being said in English instead of Latin, switching to the Episcopalian church isn't going to help.


It wasn't just the Latin,  as that had been a bit earlier.  Late 1970s, some of the group hug stuff that got introduced when the church tried to make itself more 'youth friendly'.
 
2014-01-09 12:40:36 PM

Infernalist: SpacemanSpoof: Interesting.  What's next? Stop calling the priests "Father"?  (There's only one "Father" in the Bible.  Anyone else who takes that title is committing blasphemy.)  Elimination of the priests themselves? (The Bible says that all believers are members of the priesthood, i.e. have access to God, in direct opposition to the separate priest class of Judaism).  While we're at it, let's drop the whole hierarchy nonsense - bishops, archbishops, even the Pope.  (In the Bible, the early churches were independent and self-determining, not part of some top-down hierarchical structure).


ginko: The church is supposed to be their flock, right? Why can't they be something humble like Shepard?

Quite astute... this is why the leader of a Baptist church is called "Pastor".  Not "Father," "Reverend," or anything else that would tend to elevate him.  A minister is supposed to be a servant to his people, not a master of them.

To be fair, titles are a bit insignificant.  Baptists preachers are just as prone to corruption and evil behavior as any priest.

Example: the African pastor who makes his 'flock' eat grass and regularly beats them.


I'll give you that. I never said that all Baptist pastors are paragons of virtue. Any position that creates influence over someone else, religious or otherwise, attracts all manner of unsavory people. Of course, if people would actually educate themselves rather than waiting to be spoon-fed, they would be much quicker to spot the frauds.

I just enjoy pointing out the inherent hypocrisy of a religious sect that is built entirely upon "traditions" that violate its own sacred text.
 
2014-01-09 12:41:36 PM

DarkVader: He might be a nice guy, but that doesn't change the fact that his god isn't real.

And that's really the problem with all religions.  They're telling people to believe in (and waste their money on) a load of bullshiat.


If it helps them get through life without getting homicidal/suicidal and they're not hurting anyone, why does it matter what they believe?

yes, I'm an atheist.  No, I don't care about what other people think as long as they're not hurting anyone.
 
2014-01-09 12:43:11 PM

TV's Vinnie: She had a few strokes in her latter years and one friend joked that she turned into "Long John Sister"


According to her wikipedia page she had another stroke that reversed the facial problem caused the earlier stroke,so she was able to lose the eye patch, but at the same time had new problems with her speech.
 
2014-01-09 12:44:12 PM
www.wearysloth.com

He's more concerned over his people than the church. I must admit, against all better judgment, I like this pope.
 
2014-01-09 12:45:10 PM
I know I'm not the one you're talking to, but I'd like to offer my own 2cent-answer.

If I had my way, the CC would turn over all incident reports and punishment reports regarding allegations of abuse going back at least 60 years.  And they would turn over all records of priest-transfers in connection with these allegations so that police have records of time/place where the accused priests lived in order to better search for other victims that have yet to come forward.

Lastly, if I had my way, the CC would revise its policy on internal punishment for secular crimes.  No more 'in-house' punishment for secular crimes.  Instead, the police are notified and the church hierarchy would assist the police in any and all ways required of them without stalling or stonewalling.

But, that's just me.


Dammit, it's not just you, I was going to make precisely that response.  It's freaking obvious, too.  THEY KNOW EVERYTHING THEY'RE HIDING ABOUT THE CRIMES THEY ARE COVERING UP.   IN EXCRUCIATING DETAIL.  Zero tolerance for sex crimes and child molestation, not a tricky concept.  Come clean, and stay clean.  Then feel free to entertain us with your shifting of meaningless honorary titles.  For fark's sake.
 
2014-01-09 12:45:18 PM

Ghastly: Laobaojun: Osato: Ghastly: Something tells me this new pope has an impending date with serious illness in his near future.

He made it this far. Something tells me he's really, really good at not getting ill.

I wonder if being a Jesuit has anything to do with it.

/This will be the last Jesuit pope for centuries.

Aren't Jesuits the Satanic Ninjas of the Catholic world? I seem to recall a Chick Tract warning me of them.


"god's Marines"  but yes Jack Chick and Tony Aalamo seems to have a particular hate for then IIRC accusing them of being the ones who REALLY shot JFK, among other things (for not following orders from the Pope of course)
 
2014-01-09 12:48:19 PM

Infernalist: jrodr018: Gunny Highway: theflatline: Lady Indica: meat0918: Laobaojun: He's beat the odds in the 'New Pope' pool by weeks.  I hope he keeps this up for a long time.  He does make wonder what is happening to attendance in church.  Last time there was this degree of change in the Catholic church, in my town there was a mass 'walk of shame' from the Catholic church to the Episcopalian church.

/Made for interesting times at the Episcopalian church; lots of hot new Italian girls.  Yowza!

If I still had faith, I'd be in the pews.

Raised Roman Catholic, almost became a priest, became an atheist and computer scientist instead.

He got the few relatives of mine who left over the sex scandals back. They were still believers though, of course. I'm an atheist, but so far I like this pope.

You like his PR department.

I was wondering how long it would take for the cynics to creep into these pope threads.

Be careful. If you say something positive about the Pope or the CC, the enlightened ones will point out how much you like rape/crusades/rape/holocaust. Or how big of an apologist you are for the CC and what an idiot you are for falling for his PR.

It is a losing situation, if the Pope does something good, it's either a PR move or waaaay too late or non significant. No way to placate the Negative Nancies.

Bullshiat.  I consider myself a harsh critic of the CC and derided many of the man's first moves when he was made Pope.

But, he's consistent with his efforts.  It's a steady stream of pruning maneuvers, both large and small, and it pleases me to see that he's tending to both gross violations and the small things, too.

I was infuriated at first at how so many people fawned over his efforts until reality smacked me around and reminded me of the currents of tradition and custom that he was bucking by doing what he's doing.  Plus, reality reminded me that he's got the job for life and appears to have the health of an ox.  He's only had the job for a year and he'll be in there for decades, assuming someone doesn't kill him for trying to drag the CC into the 20th century.

So, as an ardent, old-school critic of the CC....I'm willing to give the man time to do his thing.


Which is exactly my point. I completely agree with you. Give the man a chance to change things. But as you can see in this thread and others I've been a part of, if you do give this guy a chance you're called an apologist.
 
2014-01-09 01:01:07 PM

Pants full of macaroni!!: TV's Vinnie: Anyone remember Mother Angelica on EWTN? She's so ubber oldschool that even the idea of the Mass spoken in English was too radical for her and insisted on it being 100% Latin. If they brought back the Spanish Inquisition, she'd be happy as fark about it.


[3.bp.blogspot.com image 300x178]
She had a few strokes in her latter years and one friend joked that she turned into "Long John Sister", but in the last few episodes she was on before the network asked her to "retire from TV" (probably because she was creeping the f*ck out of the viewers), she was still as backward as ever with her views.

I'll bet she's shooting cinderblocks from her ass every time she hears of the latest thing coming out of Rome these days.

She's from my hometown.  When I was a kid we used to call her Sister Mary Fishface.


She is bed-ridden now and can no longer speak. That should make some of you Farkers dance with joy.

//I have no opinion on her one way or the other.
 
2014-01-09 01:02:52 PM
"Which is exactly my point. I completely agree with you. Give the man a chance to change things. But as you can see in this thread and others I've been a part of, if you do give this guy a chance you're called an apologist."

Uh, bull puckey.  Feelie-feelie good things like "hey the gays ain't so bad" and "titles aren't important" are window dressing, they're "baby steps" in the same way as redecorating the dining room while the kitchen's on fire.

If he hopes to redeem the institution it must begin with endings its systemic criminality.  And I don't much care about funky investments or weird political dealings.  The focus must remain on the molestation and sex crimes.  There is NO room for handling anything "internally" any more.

At the very least it would appear that some 3rd party like the UN should be charged with investigating.  If governments can join together to track down evil sharers of pop songs, surely a suitable independent party can make the church come clean.
 
2014-01-09 01:07:53 PM

Far Cough: "Which is exactly my point. I completely agree with you. Give the man a chance to change things. But as you can see in this thread and others I've been a part of, if you do give this guy a chance you're called an apologist."

Uh, bull puckey.  Feelie-feelie good things like "hey the gays ain't so bad" and "titles aren't important" are window dressing, they're "baby steps" in the same way as redecorating the dining room while the kitchen's on fire.

If he hopes to redeem the institution it must begin with endings its systemic criminality.  And I don't much care about funky investments or weird political dealings.  The focus must remain on the molestation and sex crimes.  There is NO room for handling anything "internally" any more.

At the very least it would appear that some 3rd party like the UN should be charged with investigating.  If governments can join together to track down evil sharers of pop songs, surely a suitable independent party can make the church come clean.


Your assertion that the 'kitchen's on fire' lends an air of urgency and need for immediate action while the Pope dithers and dallies.

In reality, the Pope shifted into Ludicrous Speed shortly after taking office and hasn't slowed down.  It might not look like he's moving fast, but considering what he's moving 'against', it really is impressive what he's managed to accomplish in the first year of his reign.

Basically, you're being impatient.  Relax and let the man work.
 
2014-01-09 01:12:39 PM
Frankly, the blame isn't really on him.  We don't expect the Mafia to police itself, or the Congress.  Why haven't our various governments taken on this task, instead of always stopping their work at the palace gates?

I'm really quite ignorant on this, but is there no precedent for normal civilian policing of real crimes committed by religious groups?  It should NOT be up to old Francis or his handlers.  Again, these are ongoing CRIMES.
 
2014-01-09 01:12:57 PM

maram500: My dead paternal grandmother is spinning in Hell over this, after decades of "Monsignor said this" and "Monsignor said that" while she was a lying, conniving biatch to my brothers and me.

/Just because you go to church, say the novena, and scream from the top of your lungs how good a Catholic you are doesn't mean you're a good Catholic


Aww, now I want more details! My mother tried to get my sister and I converted to Catholicism, but a priest called me a bastard who wouldn't mount to anything (I wasn't, my mother was a divorcée who married into a Catholic family), and it rather shaped my opinion of the ego of that priest (and of course, the church itself).
 
2014-01-09 01:13:52 PM
Larvelle Jones, M.D. is reportedly quite upset. Threatens to attack with automatic weapons.

i1.ytimg.com
 
2014-01-09 01:13:58 PM
And "relax", really?
 
2014-01-09 01:14:02 PM

Far Cough: I know I'm not the one you're talking to, but I'd like to offer my own 2cent-answer.

If I had my way, the CC would turn over all incident reports and punishment reports regarding allegations of abuse going back at least 60 years.  And they would turn over all records of priest-transfers in connection with these allegations so that police have records of time/place where the accused priests lived in order to better search for other victims that have yet to come forward.

Lastly, if I had my way, the CC would revise its policy on internal punishment for secular crimes.  No more 'in-house' punishment for secular crimes.  Instead, the police are notified and the church hierarchy would assist the police in any and all ways required of them without stalling or stonewalling.

But, that's just me.

Dammit, it's not just you, I was going to make precisely that response.  It's freaking obvious, too.  THEY KNOW EVERYTHING THEY'RE HIDING ABOUT THE CRIMES THEY ARE COVERING UP.   IN EXCRUCIATING DETAIL.  Zero tolerance for sex crimes and child molestation, not a tricky concept.  Come clean, and stay clean.  Then feel free to entertain us with your shifting of meaningless honorary titles.  For fark's sake.


No. Not a tricky concept at all.

But bucking a subculture that has been around for Centuries?

Not as easy as that sounds.
 
2014-01-09 01:17:43 PM

TV's Vinnie: Anyone remember Mother Angelica on EWTN? She's so ubber oldschool that even the idea of the Mass spoken in English was too radical for her and insisted on it being 100% Latin. If they brought back the Spanish Inquisition, she'd be happy as fark about it.


[3.bp.blogspot.com image 300x178]
She had a few strokes in her latter years and one friend joked that she turned into "Long John Sister", but in the last few episodes she was on before the network asked her to "retire from TV" (probably because she was creeping the f*ck out of the viewers), she was still as backward as ever with her views.

I'll bet she's shooting cinderblocks from her ass every time she hears of the latest thing coming out of Rome these days.



"That's a mighty handsome woman!"
static1.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-01-09 01:19:36 PM

HAMMERTOE: TV's Vinnie: I'll bet she's shooting cinderblocks from her ass every time she hears of the latest thing coming out of Rome these days.

Don't forget, to the church, the pope is the living, breathing mouth of god. He is called the Holy See because he can see things other men can't, do things other men can't do...


Reminds me of this line, which seems appropriate for the topic at hand:

Hollow?

- Hollow.

Fark it.
 
2014-01-09 01:21:20 PM

Nuclear Monk: meat0918: Raised Roman Catholic, almost became a priest, became an atheist and computer scientist instead.

Just not into sex, huh?


Married (in a RC church) with two kids, TYVM

//She married me so she didn't have to deal with troubleshooting computers
 
2014-01-09 01:21:50 PM
DarkVader:  And that's really the problem with all religions.  They're telling people to believe in (and waste their money on) a load of bullshiat.

And can you believe people still pay copious amounts of money toward clothes that no one else would pay that kind of money for? Obviously these people with different values than you should feel ashamed for not conforming to your single minded 'truth'.
 
2014-01-09 01:22:20 PM
RI_Red:
- Hollow.

My name is Inigo Montoya ...
 
2014-01-09 01:23:20 PM

TV's Vinnie: Anyone remember Mother Angelica on EWTN? She's so ubber oldschool that even the idea of the Mass spoken in English was too radical for her and insisted on it being 100% Latin. If they brought back the Spanish Inquisition, she'd be happy as fark about it.


[3.bp.blogspot.com image 300x178]
She had a few strokes in her latter years and one friend joked that she turned into "Long John Sister", but in the last few episodes she was on before the network asked her to "retire from TV" (probably because she was creeping the f*ck out of the viewers), she was still as backward as ever with her views.


"Morbid and creepifying, I got no problem with, long as she does it quiet-like."

kardsunlimited.com
 
2014-01-09 01:26:25 PM

Far Cough: I know I'm not the one you're talking to, but I'd like to offer my own 2cent-answer.

If I had my way, the CC would turn over all incident reports and punishment reports regarding allegations of abuse going back at least 60 years.  And they would turn over all records of priest-transfers in connection with these allegations so that police have records of time/place where the accused priests lived in order to better search for other victims that have yet to come forward.

Lastly, if I had my way, the CC would revise its policy on internal punishment for secular crimes.  No more 'in-house' punishment for secular crimes.  Instead, the police are notified and the church hierarchy would assist the police in any and all ways required of them without stalling or stonewalling.

But, that's just me.

Dammit, it's not just you, I was going to make precisely that response.  It's freaking obvious, too.  THEY KNOW EVERYTHING THEY'RE HIDING ABOUT THE CRIMES THEY ARE COVERING UP.   IN EXCRUCIATING DETAIL.  Zero tolerance for sex crimes and child molestation, not a tricky concept.  Come clean, and stay clean.  Then feel free to entertain us with your shifting of meaningless honorary titles.  For fark's sake.


I didn't know you were privy to critical internal docs that incriminate people. Unless you're full of shiat and just assuming that they kept immaculate records of their shady doings.

You see, in the adult world you don't keep those kinds of documents around or at least falsify/etc.

And just because there's a new pope doesn't mean he can make like Harry Potter and go "REVELISIOMO!" and all the documents will appear neat and in a manila folder.

Try running a business sometime. Or at least take in to account that there is no 'perfect filing system for all their dirty deeds' in ANY place.

I'm not saying they shouldn't crack down on the priests, and we don't know if they are or are not because I'm *pretty* sure that something of that magnitude would be a large operation and not something you just release a statement about and hope all the priests that are in hiding don't catch wind of it.

It's like you simpletons don't comprehend that the place is run like a business, and in so, becomes a helluva thing to manage or reign in even if you're the CEO.
 
2014-01-09 01:29:04 PM
dwrash: The Roman Catholic Church's reputation is so far in the toilet these days that I don't think people really care what the Pope has to say (other than being an ooh--aaah type of fascination). It's to the point where its actions are the only thing that is going to restore its reputation.

I agree. As a Catholic, I am interested in the news media articles about him chronicling all the good things he is saying. And I must admit it's encouraging. But the only change that I have actually noted is the church using "the new spirit of Pope Francis" as a marketing tool in the annual CSA fundraiser.

The church has all these titles from historical times that they used to align themselves with the nobility and separate themselves from the peasants that are now just asinine. And it's not only the titles themselves, but how they are supposed to be addressed. The entire deal was to make people bow and scrape to them. And it works. Our church is normally half filled but is packed on three days--Easter, Christmas and when the Bishop comes for confirmation. Normally sensible folks line up to kiss his ring, and call him "your eminence".  Then the Bishop doesn't eat dinner at the parish hall with the families of the people just confirmed---he eats at the rectory with a by invitation only group of the wealthiest people in the parish.
 
2014-01-09 01:31:26 PM
Capo Del Band, you're being deliberately obtuse.

Every time a priest was relocated, at the very least, there was documentation of it.   That already came to light in the few cases that came to justice.

That's all one needs to start with, the records of relocations, along with supporting documentation and explanations.  I'm sure any half-competent investigator could figure things out from there pretty quickly.

In addition there would be records of complaints submitted to or recorded by the various parishes, whether or not they were followed up on.

The paper trail, as incomplete as it would be, is already HUGE. It would HAVE to be, because, as you say, THE PLACE IS RUN LIKE A BUSINESS.

Stop being twatty about it.
 
2014-01-09 01:31:53 PM

Capo Del Bandito: Far Cough: I know I'm not the one you're talking to, but I'd like to offer my own 2cent-answer.

If I had my way, the CC would turn over all incident reports and punishment reports regarding allegations of abuse going back at least 60 years.  And they would turn over all records of priest-transfers in connection with these allegations so that police have records of time/place where the accused priests lived in order to better search for other victims that have yet to come forward.

Lastly, if I had my way, the CC would revise its policy on internal punishment for secular crimes.  No more 'in-house' punishment for secular crimes.  Instead, the police are notified and the church hierarchy would assist the police in any and all ways required of them without stalling or stonewalling.

But, that's just me.

Dammit, it's not just you, I was going to make precisely that response.  It's freaking obvious, too.  THEY KNOW EVERYTHING THEY'RE HIDING ABOUT THE CRIMES THEY ARE COVERING UP.   IN EXCRUCIATING DETAIL.  Zero tolerance for sex crimes and child molestation, not a tricky concept.  Come clean, and stay clean.  Then feel free to entertain us with your shifting of meaningless honorary titles.  For fark's sake.

I didn't know you were privy to critical internal docs that incriminate people. Unless you're full of shiat and just assuming that they kept immaculate records of their shady doings.

You see, in the adult world you don't keep those kinds of documents around or at least falsify/etc.

And just because there's a new pope doesn't mean he can make like Harry Potter and go "REVELISIOMO!" and all the documents will appear neat and in a manila folder.

Try running a business sometime. Or at least take in to account that there is no 'perfect filing system for all their dirty deeds' in ANY place.

I'm not saying they shouldn't crack down on the priests, and we don't know if they are or are not because I'm *pretty* sure that something of that magnitude would be a large operation and not something you just release a statement about and hope all the priests that are in hiding don't catch wind of it.

It's like you simpletons don't comprehend that the place is run like a business, and in so, becomes a helluva thing to manage or reign in even if you're the CEO.


I agree with this point, though I'd only add that the RCC is an independent nation (which is why US authorities have had trouble bringing abusers to trial under RICO-style laws, since they're incorporated like businesses but in practice argue that they ultimately answer to what is, essentially, a foreign government that doesn't have to answer to US laws).
 
2014-01-09 01:37:52 PM

Far Cough: Capo Del Band, you're being deliberately obtuse.

Every time a priest was relocated, at the very least, there was documentation of it.   That already came to light in the few cases that came to justice.

That's all one needs to start with, the records of relocations, along with supporting documentation and explanations.  I'm sure any half-competent investigator could figure things out from there pretty quickly.

In addition there would be records of complaints submitted to or recorded by the various parishes, whether or not they were followed up on.

The paper trail, as incomplete as it would be, is already HUGE. It would HAVE to be, because, as you say, THE PLACE IS RUN LIKE A BUSINESS.

Stop being twatty about it.


You've never worked in a business pre-2000 have you? Try looking up records of any company that only keeps hard records sometime.

What i'm saying, and you are providing just a wondrous example of is commoners, like you and I, trying to say with authority they understand anything outside of their immediate life. The fact that you think that they could just go 'ok relocated paperwork here, oh HEY! There's a footnote that this guy was sodomizing kids and we shouldn't tell people" is not how the world works.

You need a lot more real world experience in a place of business before you can have any comprehension of the 'you can follow an internal paper trail of any company without any training or insight into their style of business" ideology. It's like describing open heart surgery as 'using a sharp knife and a band aid to make the heart better'.
 
2014-01-09 01:40:18 PM

RI_Red: I agree with this point, though I'd only add that the RCC is an independent nation (which is why US authorities have had trouble bringing abusers to trial under RICO-style laws, since they're incorporated like businesses but in practice argue that they ultimately answer to what is, essentially, a foreign government that doesn't have to answer to US laws).


Therin lies part of the problem: They didn't have OSHA procedures telling them to keep things organized a certain way, they were their own private entity with no accountability. With that in mind, why the fark would they keep notes of any kind referring directly to the diddling? It's possible there are some buried internal style things that aren't supposed to be shown in the light of day. But the kind of paperwork that is easy to access and track down specific names, dates and things like that? Good luck with that shiat.
 
2014-01-09 01:40:58 PM
...oh, and, in fact, in many (though not all) cases, there are actual files held by dioceses that document internal investigations into abuse and the movement of priests among parishes. It's the pursuit of these docs that have led to the RCC's court filings making the argument noted previously.
 
2014-01-09 01:46:41 PM

RI_Red: ...oh, and, in fact, in many (though not all) cases, there are actual files held by dioceses that document internal investigations into abuse and the movement of priests among parishes. It's the pursuit of these docs that have led to the RCC's court filings making the argument noted previously.


Ah their own internal investigations those would be more likely to share with the appropriate authorities, if they took it serious and investigated it. Doubt very much it's centralized or even organized though.
 
2014-01-09 01:50:05 PM
So you're dead set on playing dumb then, Capo?

No one said there was a single treasure trove to turn over, or a single "molestors" database.  It's not a "walk into the basement of the Vatican and press a button" thing.  I said there's a paper trail, and that any competent investigator with full access could put everything together in quick order.

And I said to begin with the most innocent of paperwork, and one likely to be retained, the records of priest relocations.

The way you talk you'd have us think that no large scale criminal investigation was even possible before the modern age.  We're not stupid, so stop acting that way.  A properly empowered team could cut through this crap in a matter of months, and you MUST know that.

And yeah, I've been working longer than you have.
 
2014-01-09 01:51:18 PM
Seems a little odd to me. Having an honorific title for extremely senior, active members of an organization is fairly harmless. Long and faithful service, particularly when one is eligible to retire but chooses to remain active, may deserve some type of distinction in address.

The only experience I have with a monsignor was a 90-year-old Irishman who lived in the rectory and performed mass until his last day, so I'm a little unclear on the other instances when the title is granted, but in that case it seemed like an emeritus position.
 
2014-01-09 01:52:18 PM
"their own internal investigations those would be more likely to share with the appropriate authorities, if they took it serious and investigated it. Doubt very much it's centralized or even organized though."

"They're run like a big business, you wouldn't understand, but they're not centralized or even organized", you're a freaking riot of self-delusional spin, man.
 
2014-01-09 02:04:29 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: So what's he doing about the priests who have committed crimes and been moved to different locations? You know, the ones whose crimes the church knows all about, whose statute of limitations have been reached in the real world, and who Pope Hopey Change promised to do something about? What about that?

/in before cries of "stop not sucking off the pope! what's wrong with you!"


Cardinal George is going to release the sex abuse files in his diocese - might help with the "clean up" in the Catholic Church.  http://www.suntimes.com/news/24825019-418/cardinal-georges-letter-say s -files-on-sex-abuse-by-priests-to-be-released.html
 
2014-01-09 02:34:00 PM

Far Cough: "Which is exactly my point. I completely agree with you. Give the man a chance to change things. But as you can see in this thread and others I've been a part of, if you do give this guy a chance you're called an apologist."

Uh, bull puckey.  Feelie-feelie good things like "hey the gays ain't so bad" and "titles aren't important" are window dressing, they're "baby steps" in the same way as redecorating the dining room while the kitchen's on fire.

If he hopes to redeem the institution it must begin with endings its systemic criminality.  And I don't much care about funky investments or weird political dealings.  The focus must remain on the molestation and sex crimes.  There is NO room for handling anything "internally" any more.

At the very least it would appear that some 3rd party like the UN should be charged with investigating.  If governments can join together to track down evil sharers of pop songs, surely a suitable independent party can make the church come clean.


Uh, titty sprinkles. (Am I doing it right?) Trust me, most Catholics (myself included) would LOVE immediate, swift action by the church, including not only pedophiles but also the elimination of priests that aided them. But I do understand that we live in a world where those types of actions bring chaos that can have terrible repercussions, and I would rather have a Pope that measures and strategizes about his next steps rather than one who cannot see further than his next steps. Call me naive, but I hope and expect actions, it might take years, but they will happen.
 
2014-01-09 02:38:54 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: So what's he doing about the priests who have committed crimes and been moved to different locations? You know, the ones whose crimes the church knows all about, whose statute of limitations have been reached in the real world, and who Pope Hopey Change promised to do something about? What about that?

/in before cries of "stop not sucking off the pope! what's wrong with you!"


A) Uh...I think in that bolded sentence you've got the Papacy confused with a democracy.

B) You want to try to enact change in a major organized religion? You go ahead and try, let me know how long it takes...
 
2014-01-09 02:40:10 PM
But jrod, why should that (the "strategized next steps") be his hands, or those of his organization?

If McDonald's, another multinational entity, had a decades long pattern of covering up systematic sexual molestation of kids buying Happy Meals, would feel EXACTLY the same way about the McD's CEO biding his time strategizing how to handle the issue so as not do have "terrible repercussion" on the organization and its customers?

Or would you want a god damn SWAT team going in and finding out what the fark was going on?

Please note that this is already assuming that newpope has nothing but the best intentions and is not simply part of a PR campaign.  (Probably true.)
 
2014-01-09 02:53:53 PM
meat0918:
Raised Roman Catholic, almost became a priest, became an atheist and computer scientist instead.

You should join the First Church of Christ Computer Programmer.
 
2014-01-09 02:54:44 PM

Madame Ovary: The My Little Pony Killer: So what's he doing about the priests who have committed crimes and been moved to different locations? You know, the ones whose crimes the church knows all about, whose statute of limitations have been reached in the real world, and who Pope Hopey Change promised to do something about? What about that?

/in before cries of "stop not sucking off the pope! what's wrong with you!"

Cardinal George is going to release the sex abuse files in his diocese - might help with the "clean up" in the Catholic Church.  http://www.suntimes.com/news/24825019-418/cardinal-georges-letter-say s -files-on-sex-abuse-by-priests-to-be-released.html


So he's following the Pope's orders to do everywhere what he did in Argentina. Good for him to follow the Boss's order, I guess.
 
2014-01-09 02:57:45 PM

Far Cough: But jrod, why should that (the "strategized next steps") be his hands, or those of his organization?

If McDonald's, another multinational entity, had a decades long pattern of covering up systematic sexual molestation of kids buying Happy Meals, would feel EXACTLY the same way about the McD's CEO biding his time strategizing how to handle the issue so as not do have "terrible repercussion" on the organization and its customers?

Or would you want a god damn SWAT team going in and finding out what the fark was going on?

Please note that this is already assuming that newpope has nothing but the best intentions and is not simply part of a PR campaign.  (Probably true.)


Because he is the head of that organization? Wouldn't it be a step in the right direction that the head of the CC takes the steps necessary to not only punish pedophiles but also prevents the culture of pedophile protection that was (and probably still is) alive and well up to a couple of years ago? and this is not McDonalds, we are talking about one of the biggest non governmental organizations in the world that provides healthcare, relief efforts and is composed of 1.2 billion people.

Yes, this is a legal issue that should be in the hands of local authorities. But that is part of the problem, the fact that most governments had given the CC carte blanche to do as they please within their jurisdictions. So I do think it is important that the Pope, as the head of a supposedly monolithic organization that has protected people who commit these atrocities, has a strong stance against pedophiles and punishes them accordingly within the church. Of course criminal punishment should be done by local authorities.
 
2014-01-09 02:58:00 PM

HailRobonia: meat0918:
Raised Roman Catholic, almost became a priest, became an atheist and computer scientist instead.

You should join the First Church of Christ Computer Programmer.


I wonder what base number they use, since the major numbers are 1,3,12 and 40.
 
2014-01-09 03:00:48 PM

SpacemanSpoof: A minister is supposed to be a servant to his people, not a master of them.


hirr.hartsem.edu
 
2014-01-09 03:13:08 PM
Because he is the head of that organization? Wouldn't it be a step in the right direction that the head of the CC takes the steps necessary to not only punish pedophiles but also prevents the culture of pedophile protection that was (and probably still is) alive and well up to a couple of years ago? and this is not McDonalds, we are talking about one of the biggest non governmental organizations in the world that provides healthcare, relief efforts and is composed of 1.2 billion people.

What?? You honestly can't see that in composition they are both huge non-governmental organizations, led monolithically and bureaucratically, and comprised of zillions of people?

You're saying it's okay for the head of one huge org to continue the footdragging of his predecessors, but not okay for the other?  (Assuming in this hypothetical case that McD's just got a new CEO too.)

WHY?  Why would you say that?  And again, why is it up only to the organization and NOT to the real criminal authorities?

Is it not high time that the matter no longer be in the hands of the organization that is unquestionably part of the problem?

Or do I understand you incorrectly, and you're saying that you WOULD afford a hypothetical new McD's CEO just as much time as Francis in order to root out the systematic criminal sexual abuse in the organization he or she serves?
 
2014-01-09 03:14:11 PM
(dammit I'm a newbie Farker; I swear that first paragraph was properly italicized, sorry)
 
2014-01-09 03:15:43 PM

simplicimus: You should join the First Church of Christ Computer Programmer.

I wonder what base number they use, since the major numbers are 1,3,12 and 40.


There are only 10 types of programmers in the FCoCCP; those who understand Ternary, those who don't, and those who thought this was a lame binary joke.
 
2014-01-09 03:26:11 PM

Far Cough: Because he is the head of that organization? Wouldn't it be a step in the right direction that the head of the CC takes the steps necessary to not only punish pedophiles but also prevents the culture of pedophile protection that was (and probably still is) alive and well up to a couple of years ago? and this is not McDonalds, we are talking about one of the biggest non governmental organizations in the world that provides healthcare, relief efforts and is composed of 1.2 billion people.

What?? You honestly can't see that in composition they are both huge non-governmental organizations, led monolithically and bureaucratically, and comprised of zillions of people?

You're saying it's okay for the head of one huge org to continue the footdragging of his predecessors, but not okay for the other?  (Assuming in this hypothetical case that McD's just got a new CEO too.)

WHY?  Why would you say that?  And again, why is it up only to the organization and NOT to the real criminal authorities?

Is it not high time that the matter no longer be in the hands of the organization that is unquestionably part of the problem?

Or do I understand you incorrectly, and you're saying that you WOULD afford a hypothetical new McD's CEO just as much time as Francis in order to root out the systematic criminal sexual abuse in the organization he or she serves?


Dude, I am not sure what you want. I clearly explained that the CC is NOT McD, and that any comparison to McD is very shortsighted. You can start comparing them when McD starts instructing people on how to live their lives, shapes international policy to the extent that the CC has, runs 25% of healthcare organizations around the world, and has that many followers. If you can show me an organization like that that also makes the groundbreaking kind of changes that you expect, then I will shut up. Furthermore, I do not think the Pope is dragging his feet (I firmly believe that there are steps being taken as we speak), and it does not mean we are okay with what is going on.

You're saying it's okay for the head of one huge org to continue the footdragging of his predecessors, but not okay for the other?  (Assuming in this hypothetical case that McD's just got a new CEO too.)

And please do not put words in my mouth. If you really do not understand that the CC is NOT McD or any other organization, that might be an issue where we will not agree. But I will not compare McD with any religion. That is silly.
 
2014-01-09 03:31:27 PM
I'm not comparing McD's with a religion, I'm comparing it with a structured organization, a church system, that happens to built around the religion.  There's nothing silly about the comparison, though of COURSE they're quite different organizations.

You will note that I did NOT put any words in your mouth at all.  I asked you several questions to try to clarify your actual position.  See those question marks?  Please answer one or more of them.  What the devil is your answer as to why you treat the new McD's CEO differently?

Is your answer "because I revere the Catholic religion and its church should be completely off limits to civilian law enforcement"?   THIS IS A QUESTION TO YOU, NOT ME PUTTING WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH.  I am offering this wording only as a courtesy to you because you haven't answered my original question.
 
2014-01-09 03:34:13 PM
"Dude, I am not sure what you want. I clearly explained that the CC is NOT McD, and that any comparison to McD is very shortsighted. You can start comparing them when McD starts instructing people on how to live their lives, shapes international policy to the extent that the CC has, runs 25% of healthcare organizations around the world, and has that many followers. If you can show me an organization like that that also makes the groundbreaking kind of changes that you expect, then I will shut up. Furthermore, I do not think the Pope is dragging his feet (I firmly believe that there are steps being taken as we speak), and it does not mean we are okay with what is going on. "

Whoops, sorry I missed that entire paragraph.  However, it doesn't answer whether, and why, you would prevent civilian law enforcement from acting in case and not the other...
 
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