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(Arizona Sports)   You can have the game winning hit in the bottom of the ninth in the seventh game of one of the most memorable World Series ever and still only get .9% of the votes needed to go into the Hall of Fame   (arizonasports.com ) divider line
    More: Sad, Luis Gonzalez, World Series, Diamondbacks, Tom Glavine, Greg Maddux, Silver Slugger, Baseball Writers Association of America, Major League Baseball  
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2825 clicks; posted to Sports » on 09 Jan 2014 at 9:08 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-09 12:13:20 PM  

yakmans_dad: Arkanaut: yakmans_dad: Who was also the best fielding 2nd baseman ever. By a large margin.

Gulper Eel: Who was also one of the best defensive second basemen ever.

Yeah, and it took the Veterans Committee to get him in.  The BBWAA doesn't care about fielding, they care about offense.

Brooks Robinson batted .267 for his career and is one of a handful of players to get into the Hall on the first ballot.


I just checked. The other contender for greatest fielding 3rd baseman ever also batted .267 for his career and also made it into the Hall of Fame on his first try. Interesting, yes?
 
2014-01-09 12:19:44 PM  

BKITU: Arkanaut: The BBWAA doesn't care about fielding, they care about offense.
[static.foxsports.com image 660x320]

"Oh, you!"


And yet around the time he got voted in, ESPN was all about the home run he hit against the Dodgers to win Game 5 of the 1985 NLCS.
 
2014-01-09 12:22:40 PM  
The difference between the current batch of dopers is that it is and was expressly forbidden by the rules of baseball.  The use of performance enhancing drugs was against the written rules of baseball.  You can thank the players' union for not allowing that rule to be enforced, but it doesn't mean it didn't exist.  What Mantle and Ruth are accused of was not against the rules of baseball at the time
 
2014-01-09 12:23:59 PM  

yakmans_dad: Arkanaut: yakmans_dad: Who was also the best fielding 2nd baseman ever. By a large margin.

Gulper Eel: Who was also one of the best defensive second basemen ever.

Yeah, and it took the Veterans Committee to get him in.  The BBWAA doesn't care about fielding, they care about offense.

Brooks Robinson batted .267 for his career and is one of a handful of players to get into the Hall on the first ballot.


He also had 1357 career RBIs in a pitcher-dominated era.  It's not like he was Mario Mendoza.
 
2014-01-09 12:24:43 PM  

steamingpile: Drugs back in the old days had harsher repercussions than the regulated doses do now.


I will admit Ty Cobb was a stretch on my part.

But cheating is only OK if the drugs have worse consequences? Cheating is cheating. You think it was acceptable that the older players used amphetamines for a pick me up since they had more consequences?
 
2014-01-09 12:25:37 PM  

Arkanaut: BKITU: Arkanaut: The BBWAA doesn't care about fielding, they care about offense.
[static.foxsports.com image 660x320]

"Oh, you!"

And yet around the time he got voted in, ESPN was all about the home run he hit against the Dodgers to win Game 5 of the 1985 NLCS.


Right, but that's not what got him into the Hall. It's an interesting sidenote, but one clutch, didn't-see-it-coming-from-this-guy homer does not a HoF entry make. I promise you: if the Cards lose that series and Ozzie whiffs on that AB, he still makes the Hall first-ballot.
 
2014-01-09 12:25:48 PM  

yakmans_dad: yakmans_dad: Arkanaut: yakmans_dad: Who was also the best fielding 2nd baseman ever. By a large margin.

Gulper Eel: Who was also one of the best defensive second basemen ever.

Yeah, and it took the Veterans Committee to get him in.  The BBWAA doesn't care about fielding, they care about offense.

Brooks Robinson batted .267 for his career and is one of a handful of players to get into the Hall on the first ballot.

I just checked. The other contender for greatest fielding 3rd baseman ever also batted .267 for his career and also made it into the Hall of Fame on his first try. Interesting, yes?


Michael Jack Schmidt? Are you seriously going to argue he was a poor hitter?

Maybe it's time to leave, I don't even know who's trolling whom anymore.
 
2014-01-09 12:36:40 PM  

ElwoodCuse: You still have to hit the ball. Look at the long list of scrubs who have failed drug tests. Steroids are not magic dinger juice. They are not "inject self, hit ball 20 feet further". Blaming the steroid era on drugs instead of countless other more likely factors is stupid.


Makes me wonder why players even bother with steroids ... sounds like they're useless.
 
2014-01-09 12:40:03 PM  

Slow To Return: Makes me wonder why players even bother with steroids ... sounds like they're useless.


www.nndb.com

I know, right?

/too soon?
 
2014-01-09 12:47:35 PM  

Arkanaut: yakmans_dad: yakmans_dad: Arkanaut: yakmans_dad: Who was also the best fielding 2nd baseman ever. By a large margin.

Gulper Eel: Who was also one of the best defensive second basemen ever.

Yeah, and it took the Veterans Committee to get him in.  The BBWAA doesn't care about fielding, they care about offense.

Brooks Robinson batted .267 for his career and is one of a handful of players to get into the Hall on the first ballot.

I just checked. The other contender for greatest fielding 3rd baseman ever also batted .267 for his career and also made it into the Hall of Fame on his first try. Interesting, yes?

Michael Jack Schmidt? Are you seriously going to argue he was a poor hitter?

Maybe it's time to leave, I don't even know who's trolling whom anymore.


.257 was his career batting average. Which is all I posted. Are you insinuating that Brooks Robinson paid me to post that?
 
2014-01-09 12:48:55 PM  

Gulper Eel: The Cobb spikes thing is apocryphal at best - and old-time ballplayers were as a rule some hard-ass bastards.


That article basically consists of allegation said to be not true, acknowledgement that it was true (but the norm for that period of time), rinse repeat.
 
2014-01-09 12:54:04 PM  

JusticeandIndependence: He is a great player no doubt, but not a shoe in, first ballot.


3000 hits puts him in the hall of fame.

The end.
 
2014-01-09 12:57:02 PM  

zarberg: Slow To Return: Makes me wonder why players even bother with steroids ... sounds like they're useless.

[www.nndb.com image 216x305]

I know, right?

/too soon?


Caminiti's '96 campaign was just unreal, perhaps the best ever single season by a third baseman. Steroids might have bulked him, but they didn't give him the lightning reflexes and accuracy he had at third base. I personally witnessed him dive to spear a hot grounder down the line, spin around on his butt to face first base, and throw from a seated position to get the runner out by a more than a step. Not stand, not get on his knees. Threw from a seated position, while falling away from his target base, and the play wasn't close.

He might have been on cocaine at that point and seeing things in bullet time. He definitely could have competed at the All Drug Olympics, but it was fun as hell to watch.
 
2014-01-09 12:58:13 PM  

USCLaw2010: Andruw jones hit 2 homers in his first 2 World Series at bats. Let's put him in with Maddox and Glavine


To be fair, Andruw Jones should be in the hall of fame.

He is one of, if not the, greatest defensive center fielder to ever play the game of baseball. Throw in enough power to close the gap and you have a borderline HoFer that gets in after 10 years or so. I mean, considering there hasn't been any connection to steroids, he may get even more play.

It stinks that laziness and food pushed him out of the game once his god given natural ability started to wane because of injuries and age.
 
2014-01-09 01:02:08 PM  

bulldg4life: USCLaw2010: Andruw jones hit 2 homers in his first 2 World Series at bats. Let's put him in with Maddox and Glavine

To be fair, Andruw Jones should be in the hall of fame.

He is one of, if not the, greatest defensive center fielder to ever play the game of baseball. Throw in enough power to close the gap and you have a borderline HoFer that gets in after 10 years or so. I mean, considering there hasn't been any connection to steroids, he may get even more play.

It stinks that laziness and food pushed him out of the game once his god given natural ability started to wane because of injuries and age.


He's the greatest by a wide, wide margin.

What "damns" him is age.  Specifically, coming up early.  He came up at 19, had his first down year at 30, and limped his way to being an old fat slow 35 year old.  Add 5 years to all those numbers and he becomes respectable.  If he came up at 24, played great for a decade, slowed at 35, and finally limped into the sunset at 40, nobody would mind.
 
2014-01-09 01:11:50 PM  

UNC_Samurai: People voted for:

Jacque Jones
Kenny Rogers
Armando Benitez
J.T. Snow
Hideo Nomo

Hell, Moises freaking Alou got SIX VOTES!!!

But about 15 people did not vote for Greg Maddux.

And people are upset at LeBatard for letting Deadspin readers vote (I admit, I'm still a reader and I voted, the two lowest vote-getters I voted for were Lee Smith and Edgar Martinez)???

/I invoked Moises Alou, where's our relevant Farker?


Well, it's the Baseball Hall of Fame, not the MLB Hall of Fame(ignoring the election criteria for the moment).  I think that Nomo gets an exception to his middling overall career for his impact on the game as it regards to Japanese(and Korean) players coming over and being successful
 
2014-01-09 01:14:01 PM  

BKITU: Caminiti's '96 campaign was just unreal, perhaps the best ever single season by a third baseman.


Dude...come on.
Offensive Stats ---slash-----obp/slg----ops+----extra
Caminiti 96: 326/40/130----408/621----174----99 SO, 11 steals, 37 doubles

Jones 99:    319/45/110----441/633----169----94 SO, 25 steals, 45 doubles

Defensive Stats
Caminiti: .954 with 20 errors
Jones: .950 with 17 errors

A switch freaking hitter.

I don't even know if I would say that Chipper Jones' 1999 was the best single season by a third baseman ever, but it is as good or better than Caminiti's 1996. Hell, Chipper Jones' 1996 wasn't that far off from Caminiti's 1996...
 
2014-01-09 01:14:16 PM  

bulldg4life: USCLaw2010: Andruw jones hit 2 homers in his first 2 World Series at bats. Let's put him in with Maddox and Glavine

To be fair, Andruw Jones should be in the hall of fame.

He is one of, if not the, greatest defensive center fielder to ever play the game of baseball. Throw in enough power to close the gap and you have a borderline HoFer that gets in after 10 years or so. I mean, considering there hasn't been any connection to steroids, he may get even more play.

It stinks that laziness and food pushed him out of the game once his god given natural ability started to wane because of injuries and age.


I'm really interested in seeing how Jones does when he gets on the ballot. He absolutely SHOULD go in, but I kinda feel like he'll go 15 years without making it.
 
2014-01-09 01:21:03 PM  

Rex_Banner: I'm really interested in seeing how Jones does when he gets on the ballot. He absolutely SHOULD go in, but I kinda feel like he'll go 15 years without making it.


Yeah, I just don't know.

Out of the game by 35 with a stupidly ridiculous drop off between 29 and 31. I mean, holy crap. It's like he sold his soul to the devil for 10 great years and then the devil said "pay up, motherf*cker" in August of 2007. I don't think he has the offensive dominance over his first decade to get people to look past the horrid last half dozen years.

If he could've sustained his career averages until 33, then he could've had 500 homers plus his defense and probably snuck in.
 
2014-01-09 01:22:35 PM  

Rex_Banner: I'm really interested in seeing how Jones does when he gets on the ballot. He absolutely SHOULD go in, but I kinda feel like he'll go 15 years without making it.


4 times he led the league in defensive WAR, and once came in 2nd. 6 times he lead the league in Total Zone runs.

Add to that he was a decent home run hitter and a decent base swiper ... he  should be in, but yeah, he might not make it in because of how he faded at the end.
 
2014-01-09 01:24:38 PM  

Rex_Banner: bulldg4life: USCLaw2010: Andruw jones hit 2 homers in his first 2 World Series at bats. Let's put him in with Maddox and Glavine

To be fair, Andruw Jones should be in the hall of fame.

He is one of, if not the, greatest defensive center fielder to ever play the game of baseball. Throw in enough power to close the gap and you have a borderline HoFer that gets in after 10 years or so. I mean, considering there hasn't been any connection to steroids, he may get even more play.

It stinks that laziness and food pushed him out of the game once his god given natural ability started to wane because of injuries and age.

I'm really interested in seeing how Jones does when he gets on the ballot. He absolutely SHOULD go in, but I kinda feel like he'll go 15 years without making it.


Eh, Jones was very good, but I don't know about HoF.  Jim Edmonds was a better hitter and you can make easy arguments about the quality of his defense up against Jones.

Then again, Jim Rice is apparently a hall of famer, so stranger things have happened.  Meanwhile, Don Mattingly is not in the hall of fame and not even getting close.
 
2014-01-09 01:25:59 PM  

JusticeandIndependence: R.E.D DAD: JusticeandIndependence: Can we talk about HOF process on the whole or just about Luis Gonzalez?

Luis was a good player but not HOF.

Glavine, Maddux, and Thomas should be in.  BUT I think the writers should either let everyone in from the steroid era or none.

Based on stats.
Bonds should be in
Sosa should be in
Clemens should be in
McGwire should be in
Piazza should be in
Palmeiro should be in
Biggio and Bagwell are debateable

Stupid writers thinking they are doing something honorable now when they promoted these guys while they were playing.

I'm sorry, but never in any discussion concerning Biggio and the HOF should the word "debatable" be used.  He is a first ballot in every since of the word. His numbers are off the charts and they were sustained. If he had played in NY or LA he would have gone in with 97% vote.  But then let's not get started on how someone can't get 100%.

I'd debate it.  He was a great player and did it for a long time on one team.  but off the charts?

His best season was .325 with 20 HR and 88 RBI's  50 SB is an eye catcher and a great season.  His career 414 puts him 66th all time stolen bases.

He is a great player no doubt, but not a shoe in, first ballot.


THIS. He was always a very good, but never dominate player. He had an awesome 1997-1998, he made a few All Star appearances, had a few Silver Slugger awards, but he was never really in the conversation for MVP, and never won a batting title even though he had about 3000 hits.
 
2014-01-09 01:29:37 PM  

H31N0US: Donnchadha: Being clutch in one at-bat does not a Hall of Famer make

Yep. And if that changes, I nominate Aaron Boone for the HoF. At least he hit it out, not a dinker over the head of an infielder who was playing too tight.


One at bat? Then Bucky "Farking" Dent.
 
2014-01-09 01:33:34 PM  

Munchausen's Proxy: The difference between the current batch of dopers is that it is and was expressly forbidden by the rules of baseball.  The use of performance enhancing drugs was against the written rules of baseball.  You can thank the players' union for not allowing that rule to be enforced, but it doesn't mean it didn't exist.  What Mantle and Ruth are accused of was not against the rules of baseball at the time


Fine, blame the union. But aside from the toothless memo that Vincent sent out in '91, steroids weren't specifically banned. It wasn't until much more recently ('05) that players were tested and punished for PED use.

Prior to that, PEDs were treated the same as coke or weed.
 
2014-01-09 01:38:54 PM  

bhcompy: Rex_Banner: bulldg4life: USCLaw2010: Andruw jones hit 2 homers in his first 2 World Series at bats. Let's put him in with Maddox and Glavine

To be fair, Andruw Jones should be in the hall of fame.

He is one of, if not the, greatest defensive center fielder to ever play the game of baseball. Throw in enough power to close the gap and you have a borderline HoFer that gets in after 10 years or so. I mean, considering there hasn't been any connection to steroids, he may get even more play.

It stinks that laziness and food pushed him out of the game once his god given natural ability started to wane because of injuries and age.

I'm really interested in seeing how Jones does when he gets on the ballot. He absolutely SHOULD go in, but I kinda feel like he'll go 15 years without making it.

Eh, Jones was very good, but I don't know about HoF.  Jim Edmonds was a better hitter and you can make easy arguments about the quality of his defense up against Jones.

Then again, Jim Rice is apparently a hall of famer, so stranger things have happened.  Meanwhile, Don Mattingly is not in the hall of fame and not even getting close.


No you can't.  Every advanced metric has Jones light years ahead of every other outfielder, ever.

Edmonds made a bunch of diving catches.

You can make a decent case for Edmonds being in the Hall in his own right, although he's another guy who gets punished for walking too much (turn a third of his roughly 1000 walks into at bats and he reaches 2000 hits, for example).

But defensively, there isn't any comparison.

dWAR (which can kinda suck) has Jones at 24.1 and Edmonds at 5.9.  No other outfielder is anywhere near Jones on that list.

Fangraphs lists Jones at 3rd all time in Total Zone at 220 (that's third among all players, and it's a list dominated by infielders).  Edmonds is at 90.  This is a weird one, since Barry Bonds is 6th, and that's weird.

Fangraphs also has some other advanced fielding metrics, but these only measure from 2002 on. This cuts out 5 of Jones' best defensive seasons, and a 31 game first year as well.

Using that, Jones is 3rd in UZR/150, and 3rd in their comprehensive defense stat.  The next outfielder is Aaron Rowand (huh) at 23rd, with a comprehensive defense stat of about half of Jones's.  And this is cutting out 5+ great years from Jones.  Edmonds isn't anywhere near this list, but cutting off nearly a decade of his career is harsh.

Jones is way, way, way, way, way better than Edmonds defensively.
 
2014-01-09 01:50:37 PM  
All those great diving catches that Jim Edmunds made? Andruw Jones also caught those balls. He just got there a couple steps quicker and either camped out under them or caught them on the run
 
2014-01-09 01:54:20 PM  

Dafatone: bulldg4life: USCLaw2010: Andruw jones hit 2 homers in his first 2 World Series at bats. Let's put him in with Maddox and Glavine

To be fair, Andruw Jones should be in the hall of fame.

He is one of, if not the, greatest defensive center fielder to ever play the game of baseball. Throw in enough power to close the gap and you have a borderline HoFer that gets in after 10 years or so. I mean, considering there hasn't been any connection to steroids, he may get even more play.

It stinks that laziness and food pushed him out of the game once his god given natural ability started to wane because of injuries and age.

He's the greatest by a wide, wide margin.

What "damns" him is age.  Specifically, coming up early.  He came up at 19, had his first down year at 30, and limped his way to being an old fat slow 35 year old.  Add 5 years to all those numbers and he becomes respectable.  If he came up at 24, played great for a decade, slowed at 35, and finally limped into the sunset at 40, nobody would mind he'd be Frank Thomas.


Not quite, but Frank Thomas's Career Average WAR - 3.87, Andruw Jones's Career Average WAR - 3.69
 
2014-01-09 01:54:25 PM  

Rex_Banner: All those great diving catches that Jim Edmunds made? Andruw Jones also caught those balls. He just got there a couple steps quicker and either camped out under them or caught them on the run


This is precisely why Jeter is not nearly as good defensively as every layman thinks. All those amazing dives, and catch-and-spin throws? Even an average shortstop makes that as a routine play.

Jeter turned routine plays into highlight reel dives and stops.
 
2014-01-09 01:56:54 PM  

ladodger34: Munchausen's Proxy: The difference between the current batch of dopers is that it is and was expressly forbidden by the rules of baseball.  The use of performance enhancing drugs was against the written rules of baseball.  You can thank the players' union for not allowing that rule to be enforced, but it doesn't mean it didn't exist.  What Mantle and Ruth are accused of was not against the rules of baseball at the time

Fine, blame the union. But aside from the toothless memo that Vincent sent out in '91, steroids weren't specifically banned. It wasn't until much more recently ('05) that players were tested and punished for PED use.

Prior to that, PEDs were treated the same as coke or weed.


First, how can you not blame the union?  They refused to allow its enforcement.  Second, the memorandum was the rule and one that Bud Selig later reissued.  Just because they were not tested does not mean it was legal at that time.  From the time of Vincent's memorandum on the topic, they were illegal in MLB
 
2014-01-09 02:01:19 PM  

Munchausen's Proxy: First, how can you not blame the union?  They refused to allow its enforcement.  Second, the memorandum was the rule and one that Bud Selig later reissued.  Just because they were not tested does not mean it was legal at that time.  From the time of Vincent's memorandum on the topic, they were illegal in MLB


It's been said before that MLB gave tacit approval to PEDs by not enforcing/addressing the issue because of the massive surge in popularity the home run race between McGwire and Sosa brought to the game.
 
2014-01-09 02:08:31 PM  

zarberg: Rex_Banner: All those great diving catches that Jim Edmunds made? Andruw Jones also caught those balls. He just got there a couple steps quicker and either camped out under them or caught them on the run

This is precisely why Jeter is not nearly as good defensively as every layman thinks. All those amazing dives, and catch-and-spin throws? Even an average shortstop makes that as a routine play.

Jeter turned routine plays into highlight reel dives and stops.


Not quite... Jeter has to hustle to make those plays, his range is just smaller than the average SS so he has no choice.

Edmumnds sometimes would get a late jump, but more often than not he would circle around and time a dive.  He was completely physically capable of making those plays look standard, he just refused to.
 
2014-01-09 02:16:32 PM  

zarberg: Rex_Banner: All those great diving catches that Jim Edmunds made? Andruw Jones also caught those balls. He just got there a couple steps quicker and either camped out under them or caught them on the run

This is precisely why Jeter is not nearly as good defensively as every layman thinks. All those amazing dives, and catch-and-spin throws? Even an average shortstop makes that as a routine play.

Jeter turned routine plays into highlight reel dives and stops.


How dare you. Derek Jeter has 5 Gold Gloves. And they ALWAYS give that award to the right guy.
 
2014-01-09 02:18:47 PM  

Munchausen's Proxy: ladodger34: Munchausen's Proxy: The difference between the current batch of dopers is that it is and was expressly forbidden by the rules of baseball.  The use of performance enhancing drugs was against the written rules of baseball.  You can thank the players' union for not allowing that rule to be enforced, but it doesn't mean it didn't exist.  What Mantle and Ruth are accused of was not against the rules of baseball at the time

Fine, blame the union. But aside from the toothless memo that Vincent sent out in '91, steroids weren't specifically banned. It wasn't until much more recently ('05) that players were tested and punished for PED use.

Prior to that, PEDs were treated the same as coke or weed.

First, how can you not blame the union?  They refused to allow its enforcement.  Second, the memorandum was the rule and one that Bud Selig later reissued.  Just because they were not tested does not mean it was legal at that time.  From the time of Vincent's memorandum on the topic, they were illegal in MLB


No, many many people have said that Vincent's memo was basically meaningless especially since any drug testing issues were subject to Collective Bargaining. Fay's memo was essentially a CYA move.

Until '05, steroids/peds were treated the same as other illegal drugs. Unless you got caught by the law (Steve Howe, Strawberry, Gooden) baseball looked the other way.
 
2014-01-09 02:32:13 PM  
Let them all 'roid out... enhance the players with cybernetics. Breed players with custom genetics.

Embrace the future - Baseball, basketball, football (not Hockey, those guys already play at an insane physical level anyway) - let's see how far a human being can be pushed. Let them sign waivers and let the games begin!!

img2u.info
 
2014-01-09 02:32:25 PM  

zarberg: Munchausen's Proxy: First, how can you not blame the union?  They refused to allow its enforcement.  Second, the memorandum was the rule and one that Bud Selig later reissued.  Just because they were not tested does not mean it was legal at that time.  From the time of Vincent's memorandum on the topic, they were illegal in MLB

It's been said before that MLB gave tacit approval to PEDs by not enforcing/addressing the issue because of the massive surge in popularity the home run race between McGwire and Sosa brought to the game.


Let's be real, there is no one single guilty party here.  The league knew this was going on and didn't want to do anything about it because it put butts in seats and eyes on screens and they weren't willing to risk decreasing their viewership numbers.  The writers knew this was going on and were unwilling to condemn it because record setting players are exciting and it gives them something to write about.  The players' union was fully aware that this stuff was going on and refused to allow testing because the players wanted to lengthen their careers and salaries
 
2014-01-09 02:45:14 PM  

flak attack: zarberg: Munchausen's Proxy: First, how can you not blame the union?  They refused to allow its enforcement.  Second, the memorandum was the rule and one that Bud Selig later reissued.  Just because they were not tested does not mean it was legal at that time.  From the time of Vincent's memorandum on the topic, they were illegal in MLB

It's been said before that MLB gave tacit approval to PEDs by not enforcing/addressing the issue because of the massive surge in popularity the home run race between McGwire and Sosa brought to the game.

Let's be real, there is no one single guilty party here.  The league knew this was going on and didn't want to do anything about it because it put butts in seats and eyes on screens and they weren't willing to risk decreasing their viewership numbers.  The writers knew this was going on and were unwilling to condemn it because record setting players are exciting and it gives them something to write about.  The players' union was fully aware that this stuff was going on and refused to allow testing because the players wanted to lengthen their careers and salaries


Excellent points. I never meant to place the blame on MLB specifically, only that they gave unofficial approval by not saying anything because juicing = more fans and more money for them.
 
2014-01-09 02:58:13 PM  

Cubs300: I walked with the bases loaded to win a junior varsity game my sophomore year in HS. Where's my HOF plaque?

/got the win in relief, too.


static1.wikia.nocookie.net

cool story Al.
 
2014-01-09 03:24:58 PM  

machoprogrammer: steamingpile: Drugs back in the old days had harsher repercussions than the regulated doses do now.

I will admit Ty Cobb was a stretch on my part.

But cheating is only OK if the drugs have worse consequences? Cheating is cheating. You think it was acceptable that the older players used amphetamines for a pick me up since they had more consequences?


What I'm saying is that greenies did nothing for you other than make you stand upright, most players that wanted laser focus and enhanced energy did coke.

Pharmacology has progressed leaps and bounds where it was just 20 years ago so 40-45 years ago would be considered the dark ages. Hell even a lot of bodybuilders didn't do a lot of steroids until the mid-late 70s because it was imperfect and would fark you up more for competitions than help. But when they perfected it you can see a noticeable difference in muscle mass and definition, the guys who were champions back them would barely be in the top 10 now.

Also what everyone is failing to mention is most of what they were taking wasn't illegal, steroids are illegal now and they were breaking numerous laws to obtain it.
 
2014-01-09 03:37:34 PM  

USCLaw2010: Andruw jones hit 2 homers in his first 2 World Series at bats. Let's put him in with Maddox and Glavine


Actually, he will probably be in one day.
 
2014-01-09 03:40:04 PM  

coolio mack: The Hall of Fame to me has always meant either players that transformed the way the game is played or dominant players in the era they played in.


Good, so let's just take out pretty much every non-first baseman infielder in the Hall of Fame. Got it. It makes perfect sense!
 
2014-01-09 03:42:29 PM  
Oh, and I'll just say this:

IF POSITION MATTERS*, CRAIG BIGGIO AND EDGAR MARTINEZ DESERVE TO BE IN THE HALL OF FAME

*and it apparently does, because everyone has made Mariano Rivera a first-ballot lock when he leaves, and he has a job that's not even CLOSE to being as important to the outcome of a game as a designated hitter or second baseman
 
2014-01-09 03:51:36 PM  

desertgeek: Pre-roids, McGuire and Sosa were average players.


Sosa, yes. McGwire was an injury case who had the most home runs during a season throughout the 1980s (as a rookie), so I mean at one point he was definitely far beyond average... of course, by the time the mid 90s came around, he was a liability before he found his magic sauce.

desertgeek: Palmeiro should be in. Roids don't help you hit the ball.


I mean using the Clemens/Bonds reasoning, I guess. But steroids do help you hit the ball, as well as extend careers by, sometimes, five years or more.
 
2014-01-09 03:55:04 PM  

puffy999: I mean using the Clemens/Bonds reasoning, I guess. But steroids do help you hit the ball, as well as extend careers by, sometimes, five years or more.


That argument is one that actually works in one of the suspected juicer's favors ... if Piazza was juicing, why did he suffer the same early-to-mid-30's breakdown that most players suffer? He was a regular on the DL for the last half of his career, shouldn't steroids have helped that?
 
2014-01-09 04:01:50 PM  

zarberg: puffy999: I mean using the Clemens/Bonds reasoning, I guess. But steroids do help you hit the ball, as well as extend careers by, sometimes, five years or more.

That argument is one that actually works in one of the suspected juicer's favors ... if Piazza was juicing, why did he suffer the same early-to-mid-30's breakdown that most players suffer? He was a regular on the DL for the last half of his career, shouldn't steroids have helped that?


Piazza is pretty low on the list of suspected juicers, though.  He's as likely a juicer as Griffey
 
2014-01-09 04:04:45 PM  

BKITU: Caminiti's '96 campaign was just unreal, perhaps the best ever single season by a third baseman. Steroids might have bulked him, but they didn't give him the lightning reflexes and accuracy he had at third base.


First, people who take steroids probably aren't against taking other substances (legal, prescription, or illicit). It's funny, I originally missed your cocaine comment, because I was going to suggest that...

Second, not all PEDs are "steroids" necessarily, and one can improve quickness/burst while enhancing muscle mass.

Dafatone: He's the greatest by a wide, wide margin.


Never discussed: he is one of the great defensive CFs who benefited from the easiest ballpark layout ever conceived for an outfielder, in an area with relatively little wind, and did so behind some decent pitching. Imagine him playing in Candlestick (wind) or Fenway/olde-tyme-style parks... not that he WOULDN'T have been a superstar defensive player, just that his defensive WAR and range wouldn't have been quite so spectacular.
 
2014-01-09 04:13:52 PM  

desertgeek: Pre-roids, McGuire and Sosa were average players. They don't belong.


What?  McGwire was an All-Star 8 or 9 times (not to mention Rooke of the Year) before he started to juice.  He helped the A's to 3 World Series appearances in 3 years.  Are you sure about that?

Not saying he deserves to be HoF now, but he had a pretty good chance before he went boneheaded with juicing.
 
2014-01-09 04:15:32 PM  

bhcompy: Piazza is pretty low on the list of suspected juicers, though. He's as likely a juicer as Griffey


Oh, no, I'd be much, much, MUCH more likely to suspect Piazza than Griffey. And I don't necessarily suspect Piazza.

If only Griffey had not played on concrete during his prime... he may very well have had the home run record and the career that he deserved to finish with.

Oh, and pursuant to my Andruw Jones argument, people don't realize how tough it is on your body to play a good portion of your career on what is, effectively, concrete with a carpet on top. Griffey's fielding seemed to start to drop even before he went to Cincy and became one of the walking wounded.
And, no, he's NOT comparable to Jones on defense... I'm just using that as an example for anyone who were to suggest that a domed cookie-cutter park (or the old Kauffman Stadium turf) would be a better defensive environment than a grassy field. Your range for a few games would probably improve, but over the course of a season/career it may be worse for defensive ratings than playing in a windy park with a grass field.
 
2014-01-09 04:30:07 PM  

R.E.D DAD: JusticeandIndependence: R.E.D DAD: JusticeandIndependence: Can we talk about HOF process on the whole or just about Luis Gonzalez?

Luis was a good player but not HOF.

Glavine, Maddux, and Thomas should be in.  BUT I think the writers should either let everyone in from the steroid era or none.

Based on stats.
Bonds should be in
Sosa should be in
Clemens should be in
McGwire should be in
Piazza should be in
Palmeiro should be in
Biggio and Bagwell are debateable

Stupid writers thinking they are doing something honorable now when they promoted these guys while they were playing.

I'm sorry, but never in any discussion concerning Biggio and the HOF should the word "debatable" be used.  He is a first ballot in every since of the word. His numbers are off the charts and they were sustained. If he had played in NY or LA he would have gone in with 97% vote.  But then let's not get started on how someone can't get 100%.

I'd debate it.  He was a great player and did it for a long time on one team.  but off the charts?

His best season was .325 with 20 HR and 88 RBI's  50 SB is an eye catcher and a great season.  His career 414 puts him 66th all time stolen bases.

He is a great player no doubt, but not a shoe in, first ballot.

His 3,060 hits should put him in immediately.  There are only 2 others that have more than 3000 and aren't in....Rose and Palmeiro.  And there are only 28 members of the 3000 hit club.  He scored 1800+ runs and had a career OBP of .363.  Hell, the guy even went an entire season without hitting into a double play.


I don't think 3,000 hits makes him "automatic". The only reason he got to 3,000 hits is because he played for a mediocre (in 2006, and terrible (in 2007) baseball team who didn't need to replace a guy who was among the worse hitting Second Basemen in his final 2 seasons (.249BA, .296OBP, .669 OPS).

It makes no sense to say a guy is automatic because he played terrible baseball in the final part of his career. I do agree that if he played in NY that he'd be a bigger name, and a HOFer. But the hanging on at the end of a career to make a arbitrary barrier seems pointless. I don't think Harold Baines was a Hall Of Famer, and I don't think if stayed healthy for an extra season would have made him a hall of famer, even if he got the 150 hits needed to make 3,000.
 
2014-01-09 04:30:23 PM  

bhcompy: zarberg: puffy999: I mean using the Clemens/Bonds reasoning, I guess. But steroids do help you hit the ball, as well as extend careers by, sometimes, five years or more.

That argument is one that actually works in one of the suspected juicer's favors ... if Piazza was juicing, why did he suffer the same early-to-mid-30's breakdown that most players suffer? He was a regular on the DL for the last half of his career, shouldn't steroids have helped that?

Piazza is pretty low on the list of suspected juicers, though.  He's as likely a juicer as Griffey


I disagree. Piazza had terrible bacne, "test bloat" face and went from being drafted as a gift to his grandpa to being all time greatest hitting catcher ever. It isn't that hard to get drafted in the MLB draft, so he had to be not very good when he was drafted.
 
2014-01-09 04:31:13 PM  
And for what it's worth, Randy Johnson had better be somewhere above Glavine's voting percentage next year.
 
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