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(Arizona Sports)   You can have the game winning hit in the bottom of the ninth in the seventh game of one of the most memorable World Series ever and still only get .9% of the votes needed to go into the Hall of Fame   (arizonasports.com) divider line 163
    More: Sad, Luis Gonzalez, World Series, Diamondbacks, Tom Glavine, Greg Maddux, Silver Slugger, Baseball Writers Association of America, Major League Baseball  
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2766 clicks; posted to Sports » on 09 Jan 2014 at 9:08 AM (28 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-09 10:21:15 AM

mikaloyd: coolio mack: I agree with you. The Hall of Fame to me has always meant either players that transformed the way the game is played or dominant players in the era they played in. Biggio was more of a numbers compiler (like Palmeiro) because he was able to play so long. He had a nice prime in the mid to late 90s and was very good for a long time. I just question the overall greatness factor. Additionally, was he that much better than Jeff Kent who only got 15% of the vote this year?

Baseball fans are evolving too, We are entering an era where half the fans at the ballpark got participation trophies just for playing ball in school. Each passing year more of these guys will be writers and the bar to get into the hall will become lower and lower.


Bullcrap. You know how hard it is to get a job as a baseball writer at an outlet that BBWAA deems worthy of membership? They have to work their butts off to get to that position.
 
2014-01-09 10:21:41 AM
It is stupid, though... Mickey farking Mantle was on steroids. Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron were on amphetamines.

Pretty much every great player was cheating. Why are some cheaters celebrated, while others are vilified? Purity of the game my ass. If Bonds isn't going to get in, then the other past cheaters (Ruth, Mantle, Aaron, Gaylord Perry, among many others) should be kicked out.
 
2014-01-09 10:22:26 AM

Gulper Eel: Because if he hadn't been juiced to the eyeballs that year, Rivera sends him and a couple of busted-ass bats back to the dugout.

Luis Gonzalez is Brady Anderson on a team with a better pitching staff.


I don't get what argument subby is making, he's not even a fringe player who's barely on the outside.

One memory does not make him HoF worthy.
 
2014-01-09 10:28:45 AM
I know, right?  GENE LARKIN 4 HALL OF FAME
 
2014-01-09 10:29:48 AM

JusticeandIndependence: Gunny Highway: JusticeandIndependence: So?

Don;t act like it isnt an issue for some people.

It is.  I know that.  But it's stupid to cherry pick who they think did juice and who didn't and then vote for HOF.  My take is that they knew players were juicing at that time and rode the wave of fun that home runs and record smashing that went with it.  Now they are being very hypocritical about it.


Sorry some were obvious and would never have gotten in or been a superstar without using, Clemens career would have been over 5-6 years earlier if he didn't use. McGuire and Sosa wouldn't even be mentioned without using and hitting all those HRs. Bonds would have gotten in with his pre steroid stats but most feel his ego farked up his chances then his sanctimonious denials when its obvious he was using pisses a lot of people off and rightly so.

Oh and whoever said it earlier, biggio is good but not even close to a first ballot HoF player, he's average in almost every way.
 
2014-01-09 10:31:26 AM

desertgeek: Roids don't help you hit the ball.


If roids can make you stronger, and being stronger can help you get the bat around quicker, roids *will* help you hit the ball because you can wait on the pitch that much longer before committing a swing.
 
2014-01-09 10:34:06 AM
I can't believe David Tyree isn't in the football HOF!
 
2014-01-09 10:36:30 AM

JusticeandIndependence: desertgeek: Pre-roids, McGuire and Sosa were average players. They don't belong.

desertgeek: Palmeiro should be in. Roids don't help you hit the ball.

hmmmmmmm.........


I love people who have no idea how far steroids have come, back when East Germany was using them by the gallon they were suspected only good for strength events. Then as they tweaked them it was found they could target specific muscle groups and their reaction times which is why Ben Johnson set records since what he used targeted the fast twitch muscles in the calves. They even used steroids in the late 80s to target fast twitch eye muscles so to say they won't help you hit the ball is false.

Also with the use of HGH it basically helps regenerate the body allowing faster recovery as well as building strength, its what they're using to try and prolong active lifestyles in the elderly.
 
2014-01-09 10:37:32 AM

JusticeandIndependence: Except that the HOF is only voted on by the Sportswriters.  I read that story before.  How about I say many of them knew and wrote how excited that Sosa and McGuire were chasing the record anyway?  Is that better?


No, but you knew that.

There's 2 issues here, whether we think they belong in the HOF, and whether sportswriters have dealt with the PED issue well. They're two different things.

As to the first, what you and I think should be based on what we think of the players and their possible use of PEDs. It doesn't matter whether Rick Reilly and Jay Marriotti got into fights over accusing Sosa of steroid use in 1998 (was that 98? or was the accusation the next year?).

As to the second, of course they haven't dealt with it well. No one did. I know I certainly didn't (I was 15 in 1998, I drank the Kool-aid, and I'll be honest my dislike of Rick Reilly began with those Sosa accusations, which I now know to have been well founded - of course RR being a total douche since then hasn't changed my opinion back). To be honest I don't think they have a way out. To go through and say "this journalist said nothing", "this journalist tried" "this journalist was just ignorant" is exactly the kind of fruitless speculation which the entire issue hinges upon, and makes even less sense when it's applied to the tertiary actors rather than the primary actors.

If you and I DID have HOF votes, we wouldn't be any better equipped to deal with the issue than the writers though. 1998 was the greatest summer of baseball in my life, the chase to 61, a Wild Card spot (after a play-in!) for my Cubs. But. McGuire admitted to cheating, and calls it cheating - Sosa sure looks like he did, but has forgotten how to speak English so we'll never know what he admits to. So what do I do with this fictional vote? These votes however have nothing to do with what was and wasn't written in the 90s, and ultimately how you or I feel about how that summer was achieved.
 
2014-01-09 10:37:37 AM

RumsfeldsReplacement: Koji Uehara just threw a GAME WINNING STRIKEOUT to WIN THE WORLD SERIES.

I assume Subby thinks he's a Hall of Famer as well?


25.media.tumblr.com
 
2014-01-09 10:37:47 AM

Gunderson: McGuire


desertgeek: McGuire


JusticeandIndependence: McGuire


steamingpile: McGuire


This is my reason why he shouldn't be in. Half the internet can't spell his name.
 
2014-01-09 10:39:42 AM

Arkanaut: Worked for Bill Mazeroski.


Who was also one of the best defensive second basemen ever.

desertgeek: I don't think Piazza has really been tied to PEDs. He might be suspected of juicing, but I've never heard him tied directly to anything.


I don't even care about that with Piazza. He was average-to-mediocre behind the plate. Supposedly he called an okay game, but what's the point of all that power if you're going to let every runner on first faster than Sal Fasano just stroll into second?

Eventually he gets in because of all that offense, but overall he's a hair shy of Gibson, Bench, Berra, the Pudges, Dickey, Carter and Campanella.
 
2014-01-09 10:40:37 AM

suicide: Gunderson: McGuire

desertgeek: McGuire

JusticeandIndependence: McGuire

steamingpile: McGuire

This is my reason why he shouldn't be in. Half the internet can't spell his name.


I got it right once.


JusticeandIndependence: McGwire should be in

 
2014-01-09 10:40:43 AM

Go Fast Turn Left: desertgeek: Roids don't help you hit the ball.

If roids can make you stronger, and being stronger can help you get the bat around quicker, roids *will* help you hit the ball because you can wait on the pitch that much longer before committing a swing.


Plus, they turn warning track fly balls to Home Runs. Which - if my memory serves me, turns an "out" into a "hit."

/And they did helped Glenallen Hill put a ball on the roof across Waveland
 
2014-01-09 10:40:55 AM

machoprogrammer: It is stupid, though... Mickey farking Mantle was on steroids. Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron were on amphetamines.

Pretty much every great player was cheating. Why are some cheaters celebrated, while others are vilified? Purity of the game my ass. If Bonds isn't going to get in, then the other past cheaters (Ruth, Mantle, Aaron, Gaylord Perry, among many others) should be kicked out.


You spout that bullshiat every thread this comes up and never accept how wrong you are, drugs evolved over time and the speed they had back then is not the adderal used today. It didn't focus it was used to keep people awake but it had bad side effects including jitters and eye flutters they used it to get in the game at a time when missing days for drunk/sick meant your job.

The easiest way to drive it home in today's terms would be using the most backwater shiatty meth out of Missouri and expecting the same results as using medicinal cocaine. It doesn't work the same chemically and won't get the same reactions in the human body.
 
2014-01-09 10:41:56 AM

suicide: Half the internet can't spell

 
2014-01-09 10:42:01 AM

suicide: Gunderson: McGuire

desertgeek: McGuire

JusticeandIndependence: McGuire

steamingpile: McGuire

This is my reason why he shouldn't be in. Half the internet can't spell his name.


Ehhhh its mobile autocorrect
 
2014-01-09 10:47:11 AM

steamingpile: JusticeandIndependence: Gunny Highway: JusticeandIndependence: So?

Don;t act like it isnt an issue for some people.

It is.  I know that.  But it's stupid to cherry pick who they think did juice and who didn't and then vote for HOF.  My take is that they knew players were juicing at that time and rode the wave of fun that home runs and record smashing that went with it.  Now they are being very hypocritical about it.

Sorry some were obvious and would never have gotten in or been a superstar without using, Clemens career would have been over 5-6 years earlier if he didn't use. McGuire and Sosa wouldn't even be mentioned without using and hitting all those HRs. Bonds would have gotten in with his pre steroid stats but most feel his ego farked up his chances then his sanctimonious denials when its obvious he was using pisses a lot of people off and rightly so.

Oh and whoever said it earlier, biggio is good but not even close to a first ballot HoF player, he's average in almost every way.


I can assure you, a .363 lifetime OBP is well, well above average.

When only 20 guys who have played baseball have more hits than Biggio, that isn't average. If you are ranked 15 on the runs scored list, you aren't average. When only 17 guys have been on bases more often than him, that isn't average. My goodness, he hit 291 HR for a guy that was essentially a table setter.

When you start getting into top 20 all time lists for things like hits, runs scored, and being on base you aren't even close to be average. You are an all time great.
 
2014-01-09 10:48:19 AM

steamingpile: machoprogrammer: It is stupid, though... Mickey farking Mantle was on steroids. Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron were on amphetamines.

Pretty much every great player was cheating. Why are some cheaters celebrated, while others are vilified? Purity of the game my ass. If Bonds isn't going to get in, then the other past cheaters (Ruth, Mantle, Aaron, Gaylord Perry, among many others) should be kicked out.

You spout that bullshiat every thread this comes up and never accept how wrong you are, drugs evolved over time and the speed they had back then is not the adderal used today. It didn't focus it was used to keep people awake but it had bad side effects including jitters and eye flutters they used it to get in the game at a time when missing days for drunk/sick meant your job.

The easiest way to drive it home in today's terms would be using the most backwater shiatty meth out of Missouri and expecting the same results as using medicinal cocaine. It doesn't work the same chemically and won't get the same reactions in the human body.


It doesn't matter that it is better and more effective now days. They still farking cheated. They used the drugs to get an edge over the competition, which makes it cheating. And you think being able to stay awake with more energy isn't going to benefit a ballplayer on the road for half the season?

For example, let's say a MLB player buys some steroids off the street. Let's say it turns out that stuff is actually just vegetable oil and he got jipped (it does happen). Is he still cheating? I say yes.
 
2014-01-09 10:50:41 AM
Geoff Blum hit a huge homer for the White Sox in the 2005 World Series. HALL OF FAMER! this is about the stupidest headline ever.
 
2014-01-09 10:51:59 AM

StRalphTheLiar: I can't believe David Tyree isn't in the football HOF!


He would deserve it as much as Eli.
 
2014-01-09 10:56:49 AM

machoprogrammer: steamingpile: machoprogrammer: It is stupid, though... Mickey farking Mantle was on steroids. Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron were on amphetamines.

Pretty much every great player was cheating. Why are some cheaters celebrated, while others are vilified? Purity of the game my ass. If Bonds isn't going to get in, then the other past cheaters (Ruth, Mantle, Aaron, Gaylord Perry, among many others) should be kicked out.

You spout that bullshiat every thread this comes up and never accept how wrong you are, drugs evolved over time and the speed they had back then is not the adderal used today. It didn't focus it was used to keep people awake but it had bad side effects including jitters and eye flutters they used it to get in the game at a time when missing days for drunk/sick meant your job.

The easiest way to drive it home in today's terms would be using the most backwater shiatty meth out of Missouri and expecting the same results as using medicinal cocaine. It doesn't work the same chemically and won't get the same reactions in the human body.

It doesn't matter that it is better and more effective now days. They still farking cheated. They used the drugs to get an edge over the competition, which makes it cheating. And you think being able to stay awake with more energy isn't going to benefit a ballplayer on the road for half the season?

For example, let's say a MLB player buys some steroids off the street. Let's say it turns out that stuff is actually just vegetable oil and he got jipped (it does happen). Is he still cheating? I say yes.


You have no idea what you're talking about, if that player were to use amphetamines extensively during those days he would be out of the league since his body would break down over long periods of use. They used it as a recovery tool after too much drinking or when sick, you can't hit the ball if all your eyes see during a pitch is a ball bouncing its way to the plate. This was before free agency where teams would cut you or drop you for no reason and then they could decide to bring you back or let you whither.

F*ck and in relation to steroids as late as the 90s managers biatched about getting to bulky and farking with your swing. I remember Bobby cox biatching about Ron Gant being too large in spring training and not letting him play as much.
 
2014-01-09 10:57:04 AM

ladodger34: mikaloyd: coolio mack: I agree with you. The Hall of Fame to me has always meant either players that transformed the way the game is played or dominant players in the era they played in. Biggio was more of a numbers compiler (like Palmeiro) because he was able to play so long. He had a nice prime in the mid to late 90s and was very good for a long time. I just question the overall greatness factor. Additionally, was he that much better than Jeff Kent who only got 15% of the vote this year?

Baseball fans are evolving too, We are entering an era where half the fans at the ballpark got participation trophies just for playing ball in school. Each passing year more of these guys will be writers and the bar to get into the hall will become lower and lower.

Bullcrap. You know how hard it is to get a job as a baseball writer at an outlet that BBWAA deems worthy of membership? They have to work their butts off to get to that position.


I think Clemens and Bonds should pool some of their ridiculous money to start a smear campaign on some the the BBWAA voters, bringing to light anything shady that they did to get their status.  I'm guessing it wouldn't take a PI long to start pulling up illegal stuff they've done. That could be fun.
 
2014-01-09 10:57:22 AM

derpy: It doesn't help if the best years of your career were spent in Arizona


Yeah, because going to the World Series)and winning) almost immediately after the team was formed happens all of the time. Seriously, AZ sports get no respect. Often, that's well deserved(The Cardinals are usually a great example of this), but even the good players get no recognition outside of the fan base.
 
2014-01-09 10:58:05 AM

Mikey1969: derpy: It doesn't help if the best years of your career were spent in Arizona

Yeah, because going to the World Series)and winning) almost immediately after the team was formed happens all of the time. Seriously, AZ sports get no respect. Often, that's well deserved(The Cardinals are usually a great example of this), but even the good players get no recognition outside of the fan base.


Who? What? Huh?
 
2014-01-09 11:01:29 AM

Brother_Mouzone: Geoff Blum hit a huge homer for the White Sox in the 2005 World Series. HALL OF FAMER! this is about the stupidest headline ever.


Just to be a contrarian, I could see someone making this argument like 10 years ago when the ballot wasn't as stacked.

Maddux, Glavine, Hurt, Piazza, Biggio, Bagwell, Schilling, Moose, Raines, and Trammel were all HoF caliber candidates and that isn't even considering fringy guys like Morris, Smith, or Kent.

Let's say for arguments sake that it was only Maddux, Glavine, and Hurt that were the only worthy guys and Gonzo was the best of the also rans. I could see him pick up 2-3% of the vote in a year like that (or even more). There really was no room this year to even throw him an honorary vote.
 
2014-01-09 11:02:19 AM

ladodger34: steamingpile: JusticeandIndependence: Gunny Highway: JusticeandIndependence: So?

Don;t act like it isnt an issue for some people.

It is.  I know that.  But it's stupid to cherry pick who they think did juice and who didn't and then vote for HOF.  My take is that they knew players were juicing at that time and rode the wave of fun that home runs and record smashing that went with it.  Now they are being very hypocritical about it.

Sorry some were obvious and would never have gotten in or been a superstar without using, Clemens career would have been over 5-6 years earlier if he didn't use. McGuire and Sosa wouldn't even be mentioned without using and hitting all those HRs. Bonds would have gotten in with his pre steroid stats but most feel his ego farked up his chances then his sanctimonious denials when its obvious he was using pisses a lot of people off and rightly so.

Oh and whoever said it earlier, biggio is good but not even close to a first ballot HoF player, he's average in almost every way.

I can assure you, a .363 lifetime OBP is well, well above average.

When only 20 guys who have played baseball have more hits than Biggio, that isn't average. If you are ranked 15 on the runs scored list, you aren't average. When only 17 guys have been on bases more often than him, that isn't average. My goodness, he hit 291 HR for a guy that was essentially a table setter.

When you start getting into top 20 all time lists for things like hits, runs scored, and being on base you aren't even close to be average. You are an all time great.


All of his stats are related to his longevity, except his obp and that mainly has to do with him always getting hit by pitches.

He was good but the earlier guy was saying he's automatic first ballot HoFer and that's just not true. And his longevity could be suspect since one of his good friends was a known user, I don't think there is much proof but he went an awful long time at a physical position without being injured.
 
2014-01-09 11:02:38 AM

derpy: Mikey1969: derpy: It doesn't help if the best years of your career were spent in Arizona

Yeah, because going to the World Series)and winning) almost immediately after the team was formed happens all of the time. Seriously, AZ sports get no respect. Often, that's well deserved(The Cardinals are usually a great example of this), but even the good players get no recognition outside of the fan base.

Who? What? Huh?


What, you aren't badmouthing Arizona sports? Haven't followed them lately, but the Diamondbacks were hot at the beginning and deserve a little credit.
 
2014-01-09 11:03:34 AM

Seat's Taken: ladodger34: mikaloyd: coolio mack: I agree with you. The Hall of Fame to me has always meant either players that transformed the way the game is played or dominant players in the era they played in. Biggio was more of a numbers compiler (like Palmeiro) because he was able to play so long. He had a nice prime in the mid to late 90s and was very good for a long time. I just question the overall greatness factor. Additionally, was he that much better than Jeff Kent who only got 15% of the vote this year?

Baseball fans are evolving too, We are entering an era where half the fans at the ballpark got participation trophies just for playing ball in school. Each passing year more of these guys will be writers and the bar to get into the hall will become lower and lower.

Bullcrap. You know how hard it is to get a job as a baseball writer at an outlet that BBWAA deems worthy of membership? They have to work their butts off to get to that position.

I think Clemens and Bonds should pool some of their ridiculous money to start a smear campaign on some the the BBWAA voters, bringing to light anything shady that they did to get their status.  I'm guessing it wouldn't take a PI long to start pulling up illegal stuff they've done. That could be fun.


I don't see what it would do.  Bill Conlin is still a "Member in Good Standing" despite resigning two years ago in the face of multiple allegations of child molestation.  If the BBWAA will still let him vote after that I don't see what stuff a PI could pull up that would be worse.
 
2014-01-09 11:10:34 AM

ladodger34: Brother_Mouzone: Geoff Blum hit a huge homer for the White Sox in the 2005 World Series. HALL OF FAMER! this is about the stupidest headline ever.

Just to be a contrarian, I could see someone making this argument like 10 years ago when the ballot wasn't as stacked.

Maddux, Glavine, Hurt, Piazza, Biggio, Bagwell, Schilling, Moose, Raines, and Trammel were all HoF caliber candidates and that isn't even considering fringy guys like Morris, Smith, or Kent.

Let's say for arguments sake that it was only Maddux, Glavine, and Hurt that were the only worthy guys and Gonzo was the best of the also rans. I could see him pick up 2-3% of the vote in a year like that (or even more). There really was no room this year to even throw him an honorary vote.


I'm really worried about what's going to happen in the next few years.  The last couple of years of very few players added has lead to a stacked ballot.  There were at least 15 players on the ballot you could have made an argument for this year and next year adds Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, John Smoltz.

The BBWAA said that the average ballot contained 8.5 votes so, for the most part, the writers are filling their ballots.  There are a lot of guys who are probably deserving but who are just going to get pushed off the ballot over time.
 
2014-01-09 11:11:33 AM

steamingpile: ladodger34: steamingpile: JusticeandIndependence: Gunny Highway: JusticeandIndependence: So?

Don;t act like it isnt an issue for some people.

It is.  I know that.  But it's stupid to cherry pick who they think did juice and who didn't and then vote for HOF.  My take is that they knew players were juicing at that time and rode the wave of fun that home runs and record smashing that went with it.  Now they are being very hypocritical about it.

Sorry some were obvious and would never have gotten in or been a superstar without using, Clemens career would have been over 5-6 years earlier if he didn't use. McGuire and Sosa wouldn't even be mentioned without using and hitting all those HRs. Bonds would have gotten in with his pre steroid stats but most feel his ego farked up his chances then his sanctimonious denials when its obvious he was using pisses a lot of people off and rightly so.

Oh and whoever said it earlier, biggio is good but not even close to a first ballot HoF player, he's average in almost every way.

I can assure you, a .363 lifetime OBP is well, well above average.

When only 20 guys who have played baseball have more hits than Biggio, that isn't average. If you are ranked 15 on the runs scored list, you aren't average. When only 17 guys have been on bases more often than him, that isn't average. My goodness, he hit 291 HR for a guy that was essentially a table setter.

When you start getting into top 20 all time lists for things like hits, runs scored, and being on base you aren't even close to be average. You are an all time great.

All of his stats are related to his longevity, except his obp and that mainly has to do with him always getting hit by pitches.

He was good but the earlier guy was saying he's automatic first ballot HoFer and that's just not true. And his longevity could be suspect since one of his good friends was a known user, I don't think there is much proof but he went an awful long time at a physical position without being injured.


Biggio was a compiler. So be it. Too often, people discount compilers. They forget that to be a compiler, you have to be good for a very long time to pile up all of those stats and there is a ton of value for teams to have a guy that puts up consistently good/great numbers for 20 years.

Holy hell, a guy with a career .363 obp for 5 years would nice to have.

Again, you start creeping into top 20 lists for getting on base and scoring runs you are pretty great and it shouldn't even be a debate.
 
2014-01-09 11:11:36 AM

steamingpile: machoprogrammer: steamingpile: machoprogrammer: It is stupid, though... Mickey farking Mantle was on steroids. Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron were on amphetamines.

Pretty much every great player was cheating. Why are some cheaters celebrated, while others are vilified? Purity of the game my ass. If Bonds isn't going to get in, then the other past cheaters (Ruth, Mantle, Aaron, Gaylord Perry, among many others) should be kicked out.

You spout that bullshiat every thread this comes up and never accept how wrong you are, drugs evolved over time and the speed they had back then is not the adderal used today. It didn't focus it was used to keep people awake but it had bad side effects including jitters and eye flutters they used it to get in the game at a time when missing days for drunk/sick meant your job.

The easiest way to drive it home in today's terms would be using the most backwater shiatty meth out of Missouri and expecting the same results as using medicinal cocaine. It doesn't work the same chemically and won't get the same reactions in the human body.

It doesn't matter that it is better and more effective now days. They still farking cheated. They used the drugs to get an edge over the competition, which makes it cheating. And you think being able to stay awake with more energy isn't going to benefit a ballplayer on the road for half the season?

For example, let's say a MLB player buys some steroids off the street. Let's say it turns out that stuff is actually just vegetable oil and he got jipped (it does happen). Is he still cheating? I say yes.

You have no idea what you're talking about, if that player were to use amphetamines extensively during those days he would be out of the league since his body would break down over long periods of use. They used it as a recovery tool after too much drinking or when sick, you can't hit the ball if all your eyes see during a pitch is a ball bouncing its way to the plate. This was before free agency where teams would cu ...


Yeah, because McGwire's coach sure didn't let him play for being too big in the early 90s.

And they used an illegal substance to get an edge. That is cheating. Gaylord Perry used a spitball (an illegal pitch); should he be kicked out? Hell, he wrote a book about how he did it. Why are today's cheaters not allowed but past ones were? Hell, Ty Cobb was the best hitter of all time, but one of the biggest assholes, too. He even sharpened his spikes to injure guys when he slid into bases; intentionally trying to injure coworkers is certainly not cool.

The HOF isn't sacred and people have cheated or done shiatty things to get an edge for over a century. Why do we care now?
 
2014-01-09 11:24:16 AM
ladodger34: steamingpile: ladodger34: steamingpile: JusticeandIndependence: Gunny Highway: JusticeandIndependence: So?

Biggio was a compiler. So be it. Too often, people discount compilers. They forget that to be a compiler, you have to be good for a very long time to pile up all of those stats and there is a ton of value for teams to have a guy that puts up consistently good/great numbers for 20 years.

Holy hell, a guy with a career .363 obp for 5 years would nice to have.

Again, you start creeping into top 20 lists for getting on base and scoring runs you are pretty great and it shouldn't even be a debate.



I agree with you.  It's one thing to be a compiler for 10 years and another to be a compiler for 20 years.  But it's important to remember that Biggio wasn't just a compiler.  He was a 4+ WAR player for nine straight seasons, a 5+ WAR player for five straight seasons, and put up a career high of 9.4 in 1997, which would have been good for 1st in the league in 2013 at least.
 
2014-01-09 11:25:24 AM

Go Fast Turn Left: desertgeek: Roids don't help you hit the ball.

If roids can make you stronger, and being stronger can help you get the bat around quicker, roids *will* help you hit the ball because you can wait on the pitch that much longer before committing a swing.


You still have to hit the ball. Look at the long list of scrubs who have failed drug tests. Steroids are not magic dinger juice. They are not "inject self, hit ball 20 feet further". Blaming the steroid era on drugs instead of countless other more likely factors is stupid.
 
2014-01-09 11:27:06 AM

Donnchadha: Being clutch in one at-bat does not a Hall of Famer make



Wish this had been the Boobies...nothing more needs to be said.
 
2014-01-09 11:30:48 AM
Not a HoFer.
 
2014-01-09 11:35:58 AM

Arkanaut: Worked for Bill Mazeroski.


Who was also the best fielding 2nd baseman ever. By a large margin.
 
2014-01-09 11:38:02 AM

ElwoodCuse: Go Fast Turn Left: desertgeek: Roids don't help you hit the ball.

If roids can make you stronger, and being stronger can help you get the bat around quicker, roids *will* help you hit the ball because you can wait on the pitch that much longer before committing a swing.

You still have to hit the ball. Look at the long list of scrubs who have failed drug tests. Steroids are not magic dinger juice. They are not "inject self, hit ball 20 feet further". Blaming the steroid era on drugs instead of countless other more likely factors is stupid.


Suddenly those other factors also went away.
 
2014-01-09 11:38:48 AM

machoprogrammer: He even sharpened his spikes to injure guys when he slid into bases; intentionally trying to injure coworkers is certainly not cool.


ontheoutsidecorner.files.wordpress.com

...who just put you on your ass with a little something near your adams-apple.

The Cobb spikes thing is apocryphal at best - and old-time ballplayers were as a rule some hard-ass bastards.
 
2014-01-09 11:41:20 AM

rugman11: Seat's Taken:
I think Clemens and Bonds should pool some of their ridiculous money to start a smear campaign on some the the BBWAA voters, bringing to light anything shady that they did to get their status.  I'm guessing it wouldn't take a PI long to start pulling up illegal stuff they've done. That could be fun.

I don't see what it would do.  Bill Conlin is still a "Member in Good Standing" despite resigning two years ago in the face of multiple allegations of child molestation.  If the BBWAA will still let him vote after that I don't see what stuff a PI could pull up that would be worse.


Well, I made that comment without any research or knowledge regarding the voters, so your post was enlightening and makes it even more absurd that the BBWAA get to act as judge and jury for players never officially caught using steroids.  I'm not condoning cheating, I just don't understand how they can be all high and mighty with their votes on people never caught and have baseball careers that undoubtedly are HOF worthy.  One of the worst parts of the "steroid era" is the demeaning of the HOF.
 
2014-01-09 11:45:52 AM

Donnchadha: Being clutch in one at-bat does not a Hall of Famer make


If that's all it took, Todd Pratt would be a HoFer
 
2014-01-09 11:50:28 AM

Gulper Eel: Arkanaut: Worked for Bill Mazeroski.

Who was also one of the best defensive second basemen ever.

desertgeek: I don't think Piazza has really been tied to PEDs. He might be suspected of juicing, but I've never heard him tied directly to anything.

I don't even care about that with Piazza. He was average-to-mediocre behind the plate. Supposedly he called an okay game, but what's the point of all that power if you're going to let every runner on first faster than Sal Fasano just stroll into second?

Eventually he gets in because of all that offense, but overall he's a hair shy of Gibson, Bench, Berra, the Pudges, Dickey, Carter and Campanella.


"supposedly"? Really?

That's your argument?

He actually wasn't nearly as bad as you think, defensively.
 
2014-01-09 11:53:13 AM
This is the Hall of Fame. That means you need to be famous to get in. And quite frankly there are only two teams that fit the bill, The Yankees and the Red Sox. If you are not a member of these two squads, you do not belong in the Hall of Fame and are probably taking a Yankee or Red Sox spot, so get out. The rest of the league is like the Washington Generals, irrelevant. Being a part of the Yankees or Red Sox, you had to endure everyone's A game while the other games had inflated stats due to the abundance of inferior talent on these other sub-worthy teams. Steroids are for cheats except for Yankees or Red Sox since they always had gruelling contests, their use was expected. The National League is nothing more than a minor league and as such should be designated AAAA. It is unfortunate when other teams eliminate the Yankees or Red Sox from their rightful place as World Series victors and I firmly believe there should be a juicing investigation of any team that eliminates them.
 
2014-01-09 11:55:15 AM
I find Sosa's inclusion with the juicers interesting. think about it. He was never caught. never tested positive. never said he did it. yet it is just assumed he is a juicer. and I think he was too, I am not saying he wasn't. But really, he should be in the same pile as Piazza and Gonzales, where most think he did, but there is no proof.
 
2014-01-09 11:55:52 AM

yakmans_dad: Who was also the best fielding 2nd baseman ever. By a large margin.


Gulper Eel: Who was also one of the best defensive second basemen ever.


Yeah, and it took the Veterans Committee to get him in.  The BBWAA doesn't care about fielding, they care about offense.

Omar Vizquel is one of the greatest fielding shortstops of all time, but with few notable postseason hits.  Let's see if he can make it in on the first few tries (apparently he was still playing as of 2 years ago?!?!) -- I somehow doubt it.
 
2014-01-09 11:58:08 AM

USCLaw2010: Andruw jones hit 2 homers in his first 2 World Series at bats. Let's put him in with Maddox and Glavine


Actually, Jones should go in easily.  He's got 400 home runs and is the best defensive outfielder ever.  Actually ever.
 
2014-01-09 11:59:08 AM

Rex_Banner: EyeballKid: R.E.D DAD: I'm sorry, but never in any discussion concerning Biggio and the HOF should the word "debatable" be used.  He is a first ballot in every since of the word. His numbers are off the charts and they were sustained.

Uh huh. Which resulted in his team winning...?


Yep, sorry, these things matter.

Ted Williams says hi


So does Ernie Banks.
 
2014-01-09 12:01:43 PM

Arkanaut: The BBWAA doesn't care about fielding, they care about offense.

static.foxsports.com

"Oh, you!"
 
2014-01-09 12:07:42 PM

machoprogrammer: steamingpile: machoprogrammer: steamingpile: machoprogrammer: It is stupid, though... Mickey farking Mantle was on steroids. Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron were on amphetamines.

Pretty much every great player was cheating. Why are some cheaters celebrated, while others are vilified? Purity of the game my ass. If Bonds isn't going to get in, then the other past cheaters (Ruth, Mantle, Aaron, Gaylord Perry, among many others) should be kicked out.

You spout that bullshiat every thread this comes up and never accept how wrong you are, drugs evolved over time and the speed they had back then is not the adderal used today. It didn't focus it was used to keep people awake but it had bad side effects including jitters and eye flutters they used it to get in the game at a time when missing days for drunk/sick meant your job.

The easiest way to drive it home in today's terms would be using the most backwater shiatty meth out of Missouri and expecting the same results as using medicinal cocaine. It doesn't work the same chemically and won't get the same reactions in the human body.

It doesn't matter that it is better and more effective now days. They still farking cheated. They used the drugs to get an edge over the competition, which makes it cheating. And you think being able to stay awake with more energy isn't going to benefit a ballplayer on the road for half the season?

For example, let's say a MLB player buys some steroids off the street. Let's say it turns out that stuff is actually just vegetable oil and he got jipped (it does happen). Is he still cheating? I say yes.

You have no idea what you're talking about, if that player were to use amphetamines extensively during those days he would be out of the league since his body would break down over long periods of use. They used it as a recovery tool after too much drinking or when sick, you can't hit the ball if all your eyes see during a pitch is a ball bouncing its way to the plate. This was before free agency where teams would cu ...

Yeah, because McGwire's coach sure didn't let him play for being too big in the early 90s.

And they used an illegal substance to get an edge. That is cheating. Gaylord Perry used a spitball (an illegal pitch); should he be kicked out? Hell, he wrote a book about how he did it. Why are today's cheaters not allowed but past ones were? Hell, Ty Cobb was the best hitter of all time, but one of the biggest assholes, too. He even sharpened his spikes to injure guys when he slid into bases; intentionally trying to injure coworkers is certainly not cool.

The HOF isn't sacred and people have cheated or done shiatty things to get an edge for over a century. Why do we care now?


Mainly because it denied others the right to take their place by lengthening their careers, people forget Clemens was done, Bonds had chronic knee issues, McGwire had back issues, Sosa was barely average to start with so taking all that into account its more glaring.

Drugs back in the old days had harsher repercussions than the regulated doses do now.

And cheating you are referring too has no comparison in the real world steroids were illegal in the real world. Comparing Cobb in the same sphere of cheating is just moronic since all the players did shiat like that to win since they got bonuses, the book wrote about him off the field has widely been shiat on as fabrications and a lot of outright lies. Old players said sure Ty was a prick in the field but he was decent off the field and helped players out if he could help them win.

You just need to quit arguing the point, you don't understand and I doubt you ever will, but I'm sure you will be pushing for robotic limbs when those get perfected as well.
 
2014-01-09 12:07:51 PM

Arkanaut: yakmans_dad: Who was also the best fielding 2nd baseman ever. By a large margin.

Gulper Eel: Who was also one of the best defensive second basemen ever.

Yeah, and it took the Veterans Committee to get him in.  The BBWAA doesn't care about fielding, they care about offense.


Brooks Robinson batted .267 for his career and is one of a handful of players to get into the Hall on the first ballot.
 
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