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(Arizona Sports)   You can have the game winning hit in the bottom of the ninth in the seventh game of one of the most memorable World Series ever and still only get .9% of the votes needed to go into the Hall of Fame   (arizonasports.com) divider line 163
    More: Sad, Luis Gonzalez, World Series, Diamondbacks, Tom Glavine, Greg Maddux, Silver Slugger, Baseball Writers Association of America, Major League Baseball  
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2815 clicks; posted to Sports » on 09 Jan 2014 at 9:08 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



163 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-01-09 06:57:30 AM  
I've been a D-backs fan since it was announced we got a team (previously the Cubs but that's because I grew up 1 mile from Hohokam Stadium), but seriously, Gonzo isn't a HoFer.
 
2014-01-09 07:26:05 AM  
Because if he hadn't been juiced to the eyeballs that year, Rivera sends him and a couple of busted-ass bats back to the dugout.

Luis Gonzalez is Brady Anderson on a team with a better pitching staff.
 
2014-01-09 09:13:42 AM  
His best year he was the fourth best player (by WAR) and the three ahead of him aren't in either
 
2014-01-09 09:22:59 AM  
Being clutch in one at-bat does not a Hall of Famer make
 
2014-01-09 09:23:01 AM  
Um, it's because he was juiced, and everyone knows it.
 
2014-01-09 09:24:19 AM  

Donnchadha: Being clutch in one at-bat does not a Hall of Famer make


Yep. And if that changes, I nominate Aaron Boone for the HoF. At least he hit it out, not a dinker over the head of an infielder who was playing too tight.
 
2014-01-09 09:26:36 AM  
It doesn't help if the best years of your career were spent in Arizona
 
2014-01-09 09:27:10 AM  
Andruw jones hit 2 homers in his first 2 World Series at bats. Let's put him in with Maddox and Glavine
 
2014-01-09 09:27:42 AM  
As a general rule, if I, as a casual fan, have no idea who you are, you don't belong in the hall of fame
 
2014-01-09 09:29:04 AM  
Yea, I don't remember that hit.  Besides, wasn't Juan Gonzales on the juice?
 
2014-01-09 09:30:22 AM  
Can we talk about HOF process on the whole or just about Luis Gonzalez?

Luis was a good player but not HOF.

Glavine, Maddux, and Thomas should be in.  BUT I think the writers should either let everyone in from the steroid era or none.

Based on stats.
Bonds should be in
Sosa should be in
Clemens should be in
McGwire should be in
Piazza should be in
Palmeiro should be in
Biggio and Bagwell are debateable

Stupid writers thinking they are doing something honorable now when they promoted these guys while they were playing.
 
2014-01-09 09:32:48 AM  
He and Don Larsen should have a beer together. Maybe invite Joe Carter along.
 
2014-01-09 09:33:17 AM  

H31N0US: Um, it's because he was juiced, and everyone knows it.


So?

Should we then take away all his hits from opposing pitchers and give them an out?  Then take those pitchers and readdress their stats so they could be in the hall of fame too?

He did what he did and baseball owners watched their profits soar.
 
2014-01-09 09:34:51 AM  
People voted for:

Jacque Jones
Kenny Rogers
Armando Benitez
J.T. Snow
Hideo Nomo

Hell, Moises freaking Alou got SIX VOTES!!!

But about 15 people did not vote for Greg Maddux.

And people are upset at LeBatard for letting Deadspin readers vote (I admit, I'm still a reader and I voted, the two lowest vote-getters I voted for were Lee Smith and Edgar Martinez)???

/I invoked Moises Alou, where's our relevant Farker?
 
2014-01-09 09:35:07 AM  

JusticeandIndependence: Can we talk about HOF process on the whole or just about Luis Gonzalez?

Luis was a good player but not HOF.

Glavine, Maddux, and Thomas should be in.  BUT I think the writers should either let everyone in from the steroid era or none.

Based on stats.
Bonds should be in
Sosa should be in
Clemens should be in
McGwire should be in
Piazza should be in
Palmeiro should be in
Biggio and Bagwell are debateable

Stupid writers thinking they are doing something honorable now when they promoted these guys while they were playing.


I'm sorry, but never in any discussion concerning Biggio and the HOF should the word "debatable" be used.  He is a first ballot in every since of the word. His numbers are off the charts and they were sustained. If he had played in NY or LA he would have gone in with 97% vote.  But then let's not get started on how someone can't get 100%.
 
2014-01-09 09:36:01 AM  

JusticeandIndependence: So?


Don;t act like it isnt an issue for some people.
 
2014-01-09 09:36:37 AM  
Luis Gonzales?  No.

If you are a Diamondback fan, don't worry.  I think Randy Johnson is up next year and will probably be a first ballot HOF'er.
 
2014-01-09 09:36:43 AM  
Curt Schilling, who also played a significant role in that World Series and who had a much more impressive career, got only 29.2%, down from the 38.8% he got last year. Gonzo was a good player and by all accounts a great guy, but there's no way he's getting into the HoF if Schilling isn't.
 
2014-01-09 09:37:36 AM  
Joe Carter got less than 4% in his year on the ballot and he hit one of the most dramatic home runs in World Series history. He also didn't have a suspiciously huge one-year boost in home run production.

And the headline is slightly off. Gonzo didn't get .9% of the votes needed, he got .9% of the votes, so it was more like 1.2% of the 75% needed. TFA is a little misleading too. They called it his first attempt, but you need 5% just to stay on the ballot, so it was really his only shot. I wouldn't count on the Veterans Committee.
 
2014-01-09 09:38:16 AM  
I used to trade for Luis in World Series baseball on Sega Saturn because he had the largest hitting circle in the game and he could hit with power no matter where the ball was pitched.

That's my CSB about Luis.
 
2014-01-09 09:39:48 AM  

R.E.D DAD: JusticeandIndependence: Can we talk about HOF process on the whole or just about Luis Gonzalez?

Luis was a good player but not HOF.

Glavine, Maddux, and Thomas should be in.  BUT I think the writers should either let everyone in from the steroid era or none.

Based on stats.
Bonds should be in
Sosa should be in
Clemens should be in
McGwire should be in
Piazza should be in
Palmeiro should be in
Biggio and Bagwell are debateable

Stupid writers thinking they are doing something honorable now when they promoted these guys while they were playing.

I'm sorry, but never in any discussion concerning Biggio and the HOF should the word "debatable" be used.  He is a first ballot in every since of the word. His numbers are off the charts and they were sustained. If he had played in NY or LA he would have gone in with 97% vote.  But then let's not get started on how someone can't get 100%.


Or a sense of the word even.
 
2014-01-09 09:42:53 AM  
Worked for Bill Mazeroski.
 
2014-01-09 09:44:33 AM  

R.E.D DAD: JusticeandIndependence: Can we talk about HOF process on the whole or just about Luis Gonzalez?

Luis was a good player but not HOF.

Glavine, Maddux, and Thomas should be in.  BUT I think the writers should either let everyone in from the steroid era or none.

Based on stats.
Bonds should be in
Sosa should be in
Clemens should be in
McGwire should be in
Piazza should be in
Palmeiro should be in
Biggio and Bagwell are debateable

Stupid writers thinking they are doing something honorable now when they promoted these guys while they were playing.

I'm sorry, but never in any discussion concerning Biggio and the HOF should the word "debatable" be used.  He is a first ballot in every since of the word. His numbers are off the charts and they were sustained. If he had played in NY or LA he would have gone in with 97% vote.  But then let's not get started on how someone can't get 100%.


I'd debate it.  He was a great player and did it for a long time on one team.  but off the charts?

His best season was .325 with 20 HR and 88 RBI's  50 SB is an eye catcher and a great season.  His career 414 puts him 66th all time stolen bases.

He is a great player no doubt, but not a shoe in, first ballot.
 
2014-01-09 09:46:48 AM  
Up until, what, 15 years ago, the most important stats in baseball were home runs and batting average, with rbi and hits sprinkled in.
Roger Maris held the single season home run record from 1961 until 1998 and isn't in; and he doesn't deserve to be either.  Not putting these guys in the hall is a good thing.
On the other side and for other reasons, setting a match to the Hall might be a good thing, too.
 
2014-01-09 09:49:10 AM  
I like how the BBWAA now gets to pretend that they weren't complicit with the steroid era.

http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/wilbur/2011/01/you_know_what _a .html
 
2014-01-09 09:49:39 AM  

Gunny Highway: JusticeandIndependence: So?

Don;t act like it isnt an issue for some people.


It is.  I know that.  But it's stupid to cherry pick who they think did juice and who didn't and then vote for HOF.  My take is that they knew players were juicing at that time and rode the wave of fun that home runs and record smashing that went with it.  Now they are being very hypocritical about it.
 
2014-01-09 09:52:25 AM  

R.E.D DAD: I'm sorry, but never in any discussion concerning Biggio and the HOF should the word "debatable" be used.  He is a first ballot in every since of the word. His numbers are off the charts and they were sustained.


Uh huh. Which resulted in his team winning...?


Yep, sorry, these things matter.
 
2014-01-09 09:53:02 AM  
Koji Uehara just threw a GAME WINNING STRIKEOUT to WIN THE WORLD SERIES.

I assume Subby thinks he's a Hall of Famer as well?
 
2014-01-09 09:55:49 AM  

JusticeandIndependence: R.E.D DAD: JusticeandIndependence: Can we talk about HOF process on the whole or just about Luis Gonzalez?

Luis was a good player but not HOF.

Glavine, Maddux, and Thomas should be in.  BUT I think the writers should either let everyone in from the steroid era or none.

Based on stats.
Bonds should be in
Sosa should be in
Clemens should be in
McGwire should be in
Piazza should be in
Palmeiro should be in
Biggio and Bagwell are debateable

Stupid writers thinking they are doing something honorable now when they promoted these guys while they were playing.

I'm sorry, but never in any discussion concerning Biggio and the HOF should the word "debatable" be used.  He is a first ballot in every since of the word. His numbers are off the charts and they were sustained. If he had played in NY or LA he would have gone in with 97% vote.  But then let's not get started on how someone can't get 100%.

I'd debate it.  He was a great player and did it for a long time on one team.  but off the charts?

His best season was .325 with 20 HR and 88 RBI's  50 SB is an eye catcher and a great season.  His career 414 puts him 66th all time stolen bases.

He is a great player no doubt, but not a shoe in, first ballot.


I agree with you. The Hall of Fame to me has always meant either players that transformed the way the game is played or dominant players in the era they played in. Biggio was more of a numbers compiler (like Palmeiro) because he was able to play so long. He had a nice prime in the mid to late 90s and was very good for a long time. I just question the overall greatness factor. Additionally, was he that much better than Jeff Kent who only got 15% of the vote this year?
 
2014-01-09 09:57:15 AM  

EyeballKid: R.E.D DAD: I'm sorry, but never in any discussion concerning Biggio and the HOF should the word "debatable" be used.  He is a first ballot in every since of the word. His numbers are off the charts and they were sustained.

Uh huh. Which resulted in his team winning...?


Yep, sorry, these things matter.


Ted Williams says hi
 
2014-01-09 09:59:27 AM  
Biggio should be in.  3000 hits, in 1997 he never hit into a double play in 700+ ABs.   One base shy of Roger Hornsby total bases by a Second basemen. Also was #5 in doubles among ALL players.  Second highest in # of seasons with 20+ HRS.  Hit more HR's than Will Clark or Steve Garvey.

Bonds and Clemens won't get in as they were despised by the Media for they way they treated them

A-Rod and Piazza will get in because A-Rod is a loveable goof, and Piazza is a panty creamer.

McGwire shouldn't get in as he has Reggie Jackson syndrome (His monster years were too few)


IMHO, all the Steroid accused players should be in the HoF if their stats are up to snuff.  Why?  Because the owners encouraged it.  It bought baseball back from the dead after the strike-shorted season.  People were filling the stands and watching TV every night to see if McGuire & Sosa would beat Maris' HR record.  The Yankees knew A-Rod, Clemens and Giambi were Steroid monsters and signed them for just that reason.

Also, if you exclude the Roiders' from the HOF for cheating, do you also exclude
George Brett for cheating?  Gaylord Perry?  Ty Cobb?
 
2014-01-09 10:00:08 AM  

Slow To Return: Yea, I don't remember that hit.  Besides, wasn't Juan Gonzales on the juice?


bbbut it was teh most memorable world series ever!!1
 
2014-01-09 10:01:08 AM  
I walked with the bases loaded to win a junior varsity game my sophomore year in HS. Where's my HOF plaque?

/got the win in relief, too.
 
2014-01-09 10:01:30 AM  

JusticeandIndependence: Can we talk about HOF process on the whole or just about Luis Gonzalez?

Luis was a good player but not HOF.

Glavine, Maddux, and Thomas should be in.  BUT I think the writers should either let everyone in from the steroid era or none.

Based on stats.
Bonds should be in
Sosa should be in
Clemens should be in
McGwire should be in
Piazza should be in
Palmeiro should be in
Biggio and Bagwell are debateable


Biggio and Bagwell "debatable"?  I can't trust any of your judgments if you think these two are "debatable".  Biggio (and Kent) were *easily* the best 2Bs of the past twenty years out of anyone not named Ryne Sandberg or Roberto Alomar.  And Bagwell?  The dude hit 400 homers and stole 200 bases  as a 1B.


/That being said, Luis is NOT a HoFer.
//He barely deserves consideration for the Hall of Very Good
 
2014-01-09 10:02:20 AM  

JusticeandIndependence: Gunny Highway: JusticeandIndependence: So?

Don;t act like it isnt an issue for some people.

It is.  I know that.  But it's stupid to cherry pick who they think did juice and who didn't and then vote for HOF.  My take is that they knew players were juicing at that time and rode the wave of fun that home runs and record smashing that went with it.  Now they are being very hypocritical about it.


Rather than relying just on our personal takes and memories of what pre-internet sportswriting was like, here's a pretty detailed account of what the writers knew and when (and what they did about it)

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/10261642/mlb-hall-fame-voting-st er oid-era

It's a little weird to to me to hear people yell at the writers for trying to be the morality police now because they failed as the morality police 20 years ago. Whether the writers condoned it or ignored it doesn't change what the PED users did and make it better OR worse. The players should be judged on their actions (it's up to you whether or not you think PEDs should DQ them), the players shouldn't be judged on the actions of the sportswriters.
 
2014-01-09 10:03:51 AM  

JusticeandIndependence: R.E.D DAD: JusticeandIndependence: Can we talk about HOF process on the whole or just about Luis Gonzalez?

Luis was a good player but not HOF.

Glavine, Maddux, and Thomas should be in.  BUT I think the writers should either let everyone in from the steroid era or none.

Based on stats.
Bonds should be in
Sosa should be in
Clemens should be in
McGwire should be in
Piazza should be in
Palmeiro should be in
Biggio and Bagwell are debateable

Stupid writers thinking they are doing something honorable now when they promoted these guys while they were playing.

I'm sorry, but never in any discussion concerning Biggio and the HOF should the word "debatable" be used.  He is a first ballot in every since of the word. His numbers are off the charts and they were sustained. If he had played in NY or LA he would have gone in with 97% vote.  But then let's not get started on how someone can't get 100%.

I'd debate it.  He was a great player and did it for a long time on one team.  but off the charts?

His best season was .325 with 20 HR and 88 RBI's  50 SB is an eye catcher and a great season.  His career 414 puts him 66th all time stolen bases.

He is a great player no doubt, but not a shoe in, first ballot.


His 3,060 hits should put him in immediately.  There are only 2 others that have more than 3000 and aren't in....Rose and Palmeiro.  And there are only 28 members of the 3000 hit club.  He scored 1800+ runs and had a career OBP of .363.  Hell, the guy even went an entire season without hitting into a double play.
 
2014-01-09 10:04:58 AM  

R.E.D DAD: Hell, the guy even went an entire season without hitting into a double play.


That would have required somebody else on the Astros to get on base, wouldn't it?
 
2014-01-09 10:07:31 AM  

R.E.D DAD: JusticeandIndependence: R.E.D DAD: JusticeandIndependence: Can we talk about HOF process on the whole or just about Luis Gonzalez?

Luis was a good player but not HOF.

Glavine, Maddux, and Thomas should be in.  BUT I think the writers should either let everyone in from the steroid era or none.

Based on stats.
Bonds should be in
Sosa should be in
Clemens should be in
McGwire should be in
Piazza should be in
Palmeiro should be in
Biggio and Bagwell are debateable

Stupid writers thinking they are doing something honorable now when they promoted these guys while they were playing.

I'm sorry, but never in any discussion concerning Biggio and the HOF should the word "debatable" be used.  He is a first ballot in every since of the word. His numbers are off the charts and they were sustained. If he had played in NY or LA he would have gone in with 97% vote.  But then let's not get started on how someone can't get 100%.

I'd debate it.  He was a great player and did it for a long time on one team.  but off the charts?

His best season was .325 with 20 HR and 88 RBI's  50 SB is an eye catcher and a great season.  His career 414 puts him 66th all time stolen bases.

He is a great player no doubt, but not a shoe in, first ballot.

His 3,060 hits should put him in immediately.  There are only 2 others that have more than 3000 and aren't in....Rose and Palmeiro.  And there are only 28 members of the 3000 hit club.  He scored 1800+ runs and had a career OBP of .363.  Hell, the guy even went an entire season without hitting into a double play.


I'll concede.  He's in.
 
2014-01-09 10:09:56 AM  

PabloHosehead: //He barely deserves consideration for the Hall of Very Good


I propose the Wing of Things That Happened Once.
 
2014-01-09 10:10:06 AM  

EyeballKid: R.E.D DAD: I'm sorry, but never in any discussion concerning Biggio and the HOF should the word "debatable" be used.  He is a first ballot in every since of the word. His numbers are off the charts and they were sustained.

Uh huh. Which resulted in his team winning...?


Yep, sorry, these things matter.


Nope, it's called a TEAM sport for a reason.
 
2014-01-09 10:10:17 AM  

coolio mack: I agree with you. The Hall of Fame to me has always meant either players that transformed the way the game is played or dominant players in the era they played in. Biggio was more of a numbers compiler (like Palmeiro) because he was able to play so long. He had a nice prime in the mid to late 90s and was very good for a long time. I just question the overall greatness factor. Additionally, was he that much better than Jeff Kent who only got 15% of the vote this year?


Baseball fans are evolving too, We are entering an era where half the fans at the ballpark got participation trophies just for playing ball in school. Each passing year more of these guys will be writers and the bar to get into the hall will become lower and lower.
 
2014-01-09 10:10:20 AM  

JusticeandIndependence: Can we talk about HOF process on the whole or just about Luis Gonzalez?

Luis was a good player but not HOF.

Glavine, Maddux, and Thomas should be in.  BUT I think the writers should either let everyone in from the steroid era or none.

Based on stats.
Bonds should be in
Sosa should be in
Clemens should be in
McGwire should be in
Piazza should be in
Palmeiro should be in
Biggio and Bagwell are debateable

Stupid writers thinking they are doing something honorable now when they promoted these guys while they were playing.


Pre-roids, McGuire and Sosa were average players. They don't belong. Conversely, Clemens and Bonds were HOF material before juicing and should be considered. I don't mind them having to sweat a bit, though. And let's be honest, media decides who goes in the HOF and Bonds was never the nicest guy towards the writers.

Palmeiro should be in. Roids don't help you hit the ball.

I don't think Piazza has really been tied to PEDs. He might be suspected of juicing, but I've never heard him tied directly to anything.

Biggio should be in and he will be. To come so close this year and not make would be a crime.

Bagwell... was he ever really the best player at his position during his career? I have my doubts. I have a hard time putting him in, but I wouldn't lose it if he did get in.
 
2014-01-09 10:12:25 AM  

Tiberius Gracchus: JusticeandIndependence: Gunny Highway: JusticeandIndependence: So?

Don;t act like it isnt an issue for some people.

It is.  I know that.  But it's stupid to cherry pick who they think did juice and who didn't and then vote for HOF.  My take is that they knew players were juicing at that time and rode the wave of fun that home runs and record smashing that went with it.  Now they are being very hypocritical about it.

Rather than relying just on our personal takes and memories of what pre-internet sportswriting was like, here's a pretty detailed account of what the writers knew and when (and what they did about it)

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/10261642/mlb-hall-fame-voting-st er oid-era

It's a little weird to to me to hear people yell at the writers for trying to be the morality police now because they failed as the morality police 20 years ago. Whether the writers condoned it or ignored it doesn't change what the PED users did and make it better OR worse. The players should be judged on their actions (it's up to you whether or not you think PEDs should DQ them), the players shouldn't be judged on the actions of the sportswriters.


Except that the HOF is only voted on by the Sportswriters.  I read that story before.  How about I say many of them knew and wrote how excited that Sosa and McGuire were chasing the record anyway?  Is that better?
 
2014-01-09 10:14:14 AM  

Donnchadha: Being clutch in one at-bat does not a Hall of Famer make


derpy: Slow To Return: Yea, I don't remember that hit.  Besides, wasn't Juan Gonzales on the juice?

bbbut it was teh most memorable world series ever!!1


suicide: PabloHosehead: //He barely deserves consideration for the Hall of Very Good

I propose the Wing of Things That Happened Once.


i830.photobucket.com

Ahem.

/that's Freese
//game 6
///was there
 
2014-01-09 10:14:44 AM  

desertgeek: Pre-roids, McGuire and Sosa were average players. They don't belong.


desertgeek: Palmeiro should be in. Roids don't help you hit the ball.


hmmmmmmm.........
 
2014-01-09 10:14:46 AM  
He was on as many roids as Bonds, that is why.

In before certain Farkers claim there is no way to know he was on roids even though he gained about 30 lb of muscle in an offseason.
 
2014-01-09 10:15:27 AM  

EyeballKid: R.E.D DAD: Hell, the guy even went an entire season without hitting into a double play.

That would have required somebody else on the Astros to get on base, wouldn't it?


Well played sir.
 
2014-01-09 10:16:03 AM  

JusticeandIndependence: Can we talk about HOF process on the whole or just about Luis Gonzalez?

Luis was a good player but not HOF.

Glavine, Maddux, and Thomas should be in.  BUT I think the writers should either let everyone in from the steroid era or none.

Based on stats.
Bonds should be in
Sosa should be in
Clemens should be in
McGwire should be in
Piazza should be in
Palmeiro should be in
Biggio and Bagwell are debateable

Stupid writers thinking they are doing something honorable now when they promoted these guys while they were playing.


why everyone or none? Why should Maddux and Glavine get dragged down with Bonds and Sosa and McGwire and the rest of those guys?
 
2014-01-09 10:20:55 AM  

R.E.D DAD: His 3,060 hits should put him in immediately. There are only 2 others that have more than 3000 and aren't in....Rose and Palmeiro. And there are only 28 members of the 3000 hit club. He scored 1800+ runs and had a career OBP of .363. Hell, the guy even went an entire season without hitting into a double play.


And he was a damned good catcher before he went out to 2B.
 
2014-01-09 10:21:04 AM  

Moosecakes: why everyone or none? Why should Maddux and Glavine get dragged down with Bonds and Sosa and McGwire and the rest of those guys?


No one should be dragged down.
 
2014-01-09 10:21:15 AM  

mikaloyd: coolio mack: I agree with you. The Hall of Fame to me has always meant either players that transformed the way the game is played or dominant players in the era they played in. Biggio was more of a numbers compiler (like Palmeiro) because he was able to play so long. He had a nice prime in the mid to late 90s and was very good for a long time. I just question the overall greatness factor. Additionally, was he that much better than Jeff Kent who only got 15% of the vote this year?

Baseball fans are evolving too, We are entering an era where half the fans at the ballpark got participation trophies just for playing ball in school. Each passing year more of these guys will be writers and the bar to get into the hall will become lower and lower.


Bullcrap. You know how hard it is to get a job as a baseball writer at an outlet that BBWAA deems worthy of membership? They have to work their butts off to get to that position.
 
2014-01-09 10:21:41 AM  
It is stupid, though... Mickey farking Mantle was on steroids. Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron were on amphetamines.

Pretty much every great player was cheating. Why are some cheaters celebrated, while others are vilified? Purity of the game my ass. If Bonds isn't going to get in, then the other past cheaters (Ruth, Mantle, Aaron, Gaylord Perry, among many others) should be kicked out.
 
2014-01-09 10:22:26 AM  

Gulper Eel: Because if he hadn't been juiced to the eyeballs that year, Rivera sends him and a couple of busted-ass bats back to the dugout.

Luis Gonzalez is Brady Anderson on a team with a better pitching staff.


I don't get what argument subby is making, he's not even a fringe player who's barely on the outside.

One memory does not make him HoF worthy.
 
2014-01-09 10:28:45 AM  
I know, right?  GENE LARKIN 4 HALL OF FAME
 
2014-01-09 10:29:48 AM  

JusticeandIndependence: Gunny Highway: JusticeandIndependence: So?

Don;t act like it isnt an issue for some people.

It is.  I know that.  But it's stupid to cherry pick who they think did juice and who didn't and then vote for HOF.  My take is that they knew players were juicing at that time and rode the wave of fun that home runs and record smashing that went with it.  Now they are being very hypocritical about it.


Sorry some were obvious and would never have gotten in or been a superstar without using, Clemens career would have been over 5-6 years earlier if he didn't use. McGuire and Sosa wouldn't even be mentioned without using and hitting all those HRs. Bonds would have gotten in with his pre steroid stats but most feel his ego farked up his chances then his sanctimonious denials when its obvious he was using pisses a lot of people off and rightly so.

Oh and whoever said it earlier, biggio is good but not even close to a first ballot HoF player, he's average in almost every way.
 
2014-01-09 10:31:26 AM  

desertgeek: Roids don't help you hit the ball.


If roids can make you stronger, and being stronger can help you get the bat around quicker, roids *will* help you hit the ball because you can wait on the pitch that much longer before committing a swing.
 
2014-01-09 10:34:06 AM  
I can't believe David Tyree isn't in the football HOF!
 
2014-01-09 10:36:30 AM  

JusticeandIndependence: desertgeek: Pre-roids, McGuire and Sosa were average players. They don't belong.

desertgeek: Palmeiro should be in. Roids don't help you hit the ball.

hmmmmmmm.........


I love people who have no idea how far steroids have come, back when East Germany was using them by the gallon they were suspected only good for strength events. Then as they tweaked them it was found they could target specific muscle groups and their reaction times which is why Ben Johnson set records since what he used targeted the fast twitch muscles in the calves. They even used steroids in the late 80s to target fast twitch eye muscles so to say they won't help you hit the ball is false.

Also with the use of HGH it basically helps regenerate the body allowing faster recovery as well as building strength, its what they're using to try and prolong active lifestyles in the elderly.
 
2014-01-09 10:37:32 AM  

JusticeandIndependence: Except that the HOF is only voted on by the Sportswriters.  I read that story before.  How about I say many of them knew and wrote how excited that Sosa and McGuire were chasing the record anyway?  Is that better?


No, but you knew that.

There's 2 issues here, whether we think they belong in the HOF, and whether sportswriters have dealt with the PED issue well. They're two different things.

As to the first, what you and I think should be based on what we think of the players and their possible use of PEDs. It doesn't matter whether Rick Reilly and Jay Marriotti got into fights over accusing Sosa of steroid use in 1998 (was that 98? or was the accusation the next year?).

As to the second, of course they haven't dealt with it well. No one did. I know I certainly didn't (I was 15 in 1998, I drank the Kool-aid, and I'll be honest my dislike of Rick Reilly began with those Sosa accusations, which I now know to have been well founded - of course RR being a total douche since then hasn't changed my opinion back). To be honest I don't think they have a way out. To go through and say "this journalist said nothing", "this journalist tried" "this journalist was just ignorant" is exactly the kind of fruitless speculation which the entire issue hinges upon, and makes even less sense when it's applied to the tertiary actors rather than the primary actors.

If you and I DID have HOF votes, we wouldn't be any better equipped to deal with the issue than the writers though. 1998 was the greatest summer of baseball in my life, the chase to 61, a Wild Card spot (after a play-in!) for my Cubs. But. McGuire admitted to cheating, and calls it cheating - Sosa sure looks like he did, but has forgotten how to speak English so we'll never know what he admits to. So what do I do with this fictional vote? These votes however have nothing to do with what was and wasn't written in the 90s, and ultimately how you or I feel about how that summer was achieved.
 
2014-01-09 10:37:37 AM  

RumsfeldsReplacement: Koji Uehara just threw a GAME WINNING STRIKEOUT to WIN THE WORLD SERIES.

I assume Subby thinks he's a Hall of Famer as well?


25.media.tumblr.com
 
2014-01-09 10:37:47 AM  

Gunderson: McGuire


desertgeek: McGuire


JusticeandIndependence: McGuire


steamingpile: McGuire


This is my reason why he shouldn't be in. Half the internet can't spell his name.
 
2014-01-09 10:39:42 AM  

Arkanaut: Worked for Bill Mazeroski.


Who was also one of the best defensive second basemen ever.

desertgeek: I don't think Piazza has really been tied to PEDs. He might be suspected of juicing, but I've never heard him tied directly to anything.


I don't even care about that with Piazza. He was average-to-mediocre behind the plate. Supposedly he called an okay game, but what's the point of all that power if you're going to let every runner on first faster than Sal Fasano just stroll into second?

Eventually he gets in because of all that offense, but overall he's a hair shy of Gibson, Bench, Berra, the Pudges, Dickey, Carter and Campanella.
 
2014-01-09 10:40:37 AM  

suicide: Gunderson: McGuire

desertgeek: McGuire

JusticeandIndependence: McGuire

steamingpile: McGuire

This is my reason why he shouldn't be in. Half the internet can't spell his name.


I got it right once.


JusticeandIndependence: McGwire should be in

 
2014-01-09 10:40:43 AM  

Go Fast Turn Left: desertgeek: Roids don't help you hit the ball.

If roids can make you stronger, and being stronger can help you get the bat around quicker, roids *will* help you hit the ball because you can wait on the pitch that much longer before committing a swing.


Plus, they turn warning track fly balls to Home Runs. Which - if my memory serves me, turns an "out" into a "hit."

/And they did helped Glenallen Hill put a ball on the roof across Waveland
 
2014-01-09 10:40:55 AM  

machoprogrammer: It is stupid, though... Mickey farking Mantle was on steroids. Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron were on amphetamines.

Pretty much every great player was cheating. Why are some cheaters celebrated, while others are vilified? Purity of the game my ass. If Bonds isn't going to get in, then the other past cheaters (Ruth, Mantle, Aaron, Gaylord Perry, among many others) should be kicked out.


You spout that bullshiat every thread this comes up and never accept how wrong you are, drugs evolved over time and the speed they had back then is not the adderal used today. It didn't focus it was used to keep people awake but it had bad side effects including jitters and eye flutters they used it to get in the game at a time when missing days for drunk/sick meant your job.

The easiest way to drive it home in today's terms would be using the most backwater shiatty meth out of Missouri and expecting the same results as using medicinal cocaine. It doesn't work the same chemically and won't get the same reactions in the human body.
 
2014-01-09 10:41:56 AM  

suicide: Half the internet can't spell

 
2014-01-09 10:42:01 AM  

suicide: Gunderson: McGuire

desertgeek: McGuire

JusticeandIndependence: McGuire

steamingpile: McGuire

This is my reason why he shouldn't be in. Half the internet can't spell his name.


Ehhhh its mobile autocorrect
 
2014-01-09 10:47:11 AM  

steamingpile: JusticeandIndependence: Gunny Highway: JusticeandIndependence: So?

Don;t act like it isnt an issue for some people.

It is.  I know that.  But it's stupid to cherry pick who they think did juice and who didn't and then vote for HOF.  My take is that they knew players were juicing at that time and rode the wave of fun that home runs and record smashing that went with it.  Now they are being very hypocritical about it.

Sorry some were obvious and would never have gotten in or been a superstar without using, Clemens career would have been over 5-6 years earlier if he didn't use. McGuire and Sosa wouldn't even be mentioned without using and hitting all those HRs. Bonds would have gotten in with his pre steroid stats but most feel his ego farked up his chances then his sanctimonious denials when its obvious he was using pisses a lot of people off and rightly so.

Oh and whoever said it earlier, biggio is good but not even close to a first ballot HoF player, he's average in almost every way.


I can assure you, a .363 lifetime OBP is well, well above average.

When only 20 guys who have played baseball have more hits than Biggio, that isn't average. If you are ranked 15 on the runs scored list, you aren't average. When only 17 guys have been on bases more often than him, that isn't average. My goodness, he hit 291 HR for a guy that was essentially a table setter.

When you start getting into top 20 all time lists for things like hits, runs scored, and being on base you aren't even close to be average. You are an all time great.
 
2014-01-09 10:48:19 AM  

steamingpile: machoprogrammer: It is stupid, though... Mickey farking Mantle was on steroids. Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron were on amphetamines.

Pretty much every great player was cheating. Why are some cheaters celebrated, while others are vilified? Purity of the game my ass. If Bonds isn't going to get in, then the other past cheaters (Ruth, Mantle, Aaron, Gaylord Perry, among many others) should be kicked out.

You spout that bullshiat every thread this comes up and never accept how wrong you are, drugs evolved over time and the speed they had back then is not the adderal used today. It didn't focus it was used to keep people awake but it had bad side effects including jitters and eye flutters they used it to get in the game at a time when missing days for drunk/sick meant your job.

The easiest way to drive it home in today's terms would be using the most backwater shiatty meth out of Missouri and expecting the same results as using medicinal cocaine. It doesn't work the same chemically and won't get the same reactions in the human body.


It doesn't matter that it is better and more effective now days. They still farking cheated. They used the drugs to get an edge over the competition, which makes it cheating. And you think being able to stay awake with more energy isn't going to benefit a ballplayer on the road for half the season?

For example, let's say a MLB player buys some steroids off the street. Let's say it turns out that stuff is actually just vegetable oil and he got jipped (it does happen). Is he still cheating? I say yes.
 
2014-01-09 10:50:41 AM  
Geoff Blum hit a huge homer for the White Sox in the 2005 World Series. HALL OF FAMER! this is about the stupidest headline ever.
 
2014-01-09 10:51:59 AM  

StRalphTheLiar: I can't believe David Tyree isn't in the football HOF!


He would deserve it as much as Eli.
 
2014-01-09 10:56:49 AM  

machoprogrammer: steamingpile: machoprogrammer: It is stupid, though... Mickey farking Mantle was on steroids. Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron were on amphetamines.

Pretty much every great player was cheating. Why are some cheaters celebrated, while others are vilified? Purity of the game my ass. If Bonds isn't going to get in, then the other past cheaters (Ruth, Mantle, Aaron, Gaylord Perry, among many others) should be kicked out.

You spout that bullshiat every thread this comes up and never accept how wrong you are, drugs evolved over time and the speed they had back then is not the adderal used today. It didn't focus it was used to keep people awake but it had bad side effects including jitters and eye flutters they used it to get in the game at a time when missing days for drunk/sick meant your job.

The easiest way to drive it home in today's terms would be using the most backwater shiatty meth out of Missouri and expecting the same results as using medicinal cocaine. It doesn't work the same chemically and won't get the same reactions in the human body.

It doesn't matter that it is better and more effective now days. They still farking cheated. They used the drugs to get an edge over the competition, which makes it cheating. And you think being able to stay awake with more energy isn't going to benefit a ballplayer on the road for half the season?

For example, let's say a MLB player buys some steroids off the street. Let's say it turns out that stuff is actually just vegetable oil and he got jipped (it does happen). Is he still cheating? I say yes.


You have no idea what you're talking about, if that player were to use amphetamines extensively during those days he would be out of the league since his body would break down over long periods of use. They used it as a recovery tool after too much drinking or when sick, you can't hit the ball if all your eyes see during a pitch is a ball bouncing its way to the plate. This was before free agency where teams would cut you or drop you for no reason and then they could decide to bring you back or let you whither.

F*ck and in relation to steroids as late as the 90s managers biatched about getting to bulky and farking with your swing. I remember Bobby cox biatching about Ron Gant being too large in spring training and not letting him play as much.
 
2014-01-09 10:57:04 AM  

ladodger34: mikaloyd: coolio mack: I agree with you. The Hall of Fame to me has always meant either players that transformed the way the game is played or dominant players in the era they played in. Biggio was more of a numbers compiler (like Palmeiro) because he was able to play so long. He had a nice prime in the mid to late 90s and was very good for a long time. I just question the overall greatness factor. Additionally, was he that much better than Jeff Kent who only got 15% of the vote this year?

Baseball fans are evolving too, We are entering an era where half the fans at the ballpark got participation trophies just for playing ball in school. Each passing year more of these guys will be writers and the bar to get into the hall will become lower and lower.

Bullcrap. You know how hard it is to get a job as a baseball writer at an outlet that BBWAA deems worthy of membership? They have to work their butts off to get to that position.


I think Clemens and Bonds should pool some of their ridiculous money to start a smear campaign on some the the BBWAA voters, bringing to light anything shady that they did to get their status.  I'm guessing it wouldn't take a PI long to start pulling up illegal stuff they've done. That could be fun.
 
2014-01-09 10:57:22 AM  

derpy: It doesn't help if the best years of your career were spent in Arizona


Yeah, because going to the World Series)and winning) almost immediately after the team was formed happens all of the time. Seriously, AZ sports get no respect. Often, that's well deserved(The Cardinals are usually a great example of this), but even the good players get no recognition outside of the fan base.
 
2014-01-09 10:58:05 AM  

Mikey1969: derpy: It doesn't help if the best years of your career were spent in Arizona

Yeah, because going to the World Series)and winning) almost immediately after the team was formed happens all of the time. Seriously, AZ sports get no respect. Often, that's well deserved(The Cardinals are usually a great example of this), but even the good players get no recognition outside of the fan base.


Who? What? Huh?
 
2014-01-09 11:01:29 AM  

Brother_Mouzone: Geoff Blum hit a huge homer for the White Sox in the 2005 World Series. HALL OF FAMER! this is about the stupidest headline ever.


Just to be a contrarian, I could see someone making this argument like 10 years ago when the ballot wasn't as stacked.

Maddux, Glavine, Hurt, Piazza, Biggio, Bagwell, Schilling, Moose, Raines, and Trammel were all HoF caliber candidates and that isn't even considering fringy guys like Morris, Smith, or Kent.

Let's say for arguments sake that it was only Maddux, Glavine, and Hurt that were the only worthy guys and Gonzo was the best of the also rans. I could see him pick up 2-3% of the vote in a year like that (or even more). There really was no room this year to even throw him an honorary vote.
 
2014-01-09 11:02:19 AM  

ladodger34: steamingpile: JusticeandIndependence: Gunny Highway: JusticeandIndependence: So?

Don;t act like it isnt an issue for some people.

It is.  I know that.  But it's stupid to cherry pick who they think did juice and who didn't and then vote for HOF.  My take is that they knew players were juicing at that time and rode the wave of fun that home runs and record smashing that went with it.  Now they are being very hypocritical about it.

Sorry some were obvious and would never have gotten in or been a superstar without using, Clemens career would have been over 5-6 years earlier if he didn't use. McGuire and Sosa wouldn't even be mentioned without using and hitting all those HRs. Bonds would have gotten in with his pre steroid stats but most feel his ego farked up his chances then his sanctimonious denials when its obvious he was using pisses a lot of people off and rightly so.

Oh and whoever said it earlier, biggio is good but not even close to a first ballot HoF player, he's average in almost every way.

I can assure you, a .363 lifetime OBP is well, well above average.

When only 20 guys who have played baseball have more hits than Biggio, that isn't average. If you are ranked 15 on the runs scored list, you aren't average. When only 17 guys have been on bases more often than him, that isn't average. My goodness, he hit 291 HR for a guy that was essentially a table setter.

When you start getting into top 20 all time lists for things like hits, runs scored, and being on base you aren't even close to be average. You are an all time great.


All of his stats are related to his longevity, except his obp and that mainly has to do with him always getting hit by pitches.

He was good but the earlier guy was saying he's automatic first ballot HoFer and that's just not true. And his longevity could be suspect since one of his good friends was a known user, I don't think there is much proof but he went an awful long time at a physical position without being injured.
 
2014-01-09 11:02:38 AM  

derpy: Mikey1969: derpy: It doesn't help if the best years of your career were spent in Arizona

Yeah, because going to the World Series)and winning) almost immediately after the team was formed happens all of the time. Seriously, AZ sports get no respect. Often, that's well deserved(The Cardinals are usually a great example of this), but even the good players get no recognition outside of the fan base.

Who? What? Huh?


What, you aren't badmouthing Arizona sports? Haven't followed them lately, but the Diamondbacks were hot at the beginning and deserve a little credit.
 
2014-01-09 11:03:34 AM  

Seat's Taken: ladodger34: mikaloyd: coolio mack: I agree with you. The Hall of Fame to me has always meant either players that transformed the way the game is played or dominant players in the era they played in. Biggio was more of a numbers compiler (like Palmeiro) because he was able to play so long. He had a nice prime in the mid to late 90s and was very good for a long time. I just question the overall greatness factor. Additionally, was he that much better than Jeff Kent who only got 15% of the vote this year?

Baseball fans are evolving too, We are entering an era where half the fans at the ballpark got participation trophies just for playing ball in school. Each passing year more of these guys will be writers and the bar to get into the hall will become lower and lower.

Bullcrap. You know how hard it is to get a job as a baseball writer at an outlet that BBWAA deems worthy of membership? They have to work their butts off to get to that position.

I think Clemens and Bonds should pool some of their ridiculous money to start a smear campaign on some the the BBWAA voters, bringing to light anything shady that they did to get their status.  I'm guessing it wouldn't take a PI long to start pulling up illegal stuff they've done. That could be fun.


I don't see what it would do.  Bill Conlin is still a "Member in Good Standing" despite resigning two years ago in the face of multiple allegations of child molestation.  If the BBWAA will still let him vote after that I don't see what stuff a PI could pull up that would be worse.
 
2014-01-09 11:10:34 AM  

ladodger34: Brother_Mouzone: Geoff Blum hit a huge homer for the White Sox in the 2005 World Series. HALL OF FAMER! this is about the stupidest headline ever.

Just to be a contrarian, I could see someone making this argument like 10 years ago when the ballot wasn't as stacked.

Maddux, Glavine, Hurt, Piazza, Biggio, Bagwell, Schilling, Moose, Raines, and Trammel were all HoF caliber candidates and that isn't even considering fringy guys like Morris, Smith, or Kent.

Let's say for arguments sake that it was only Maddux, Glavine, and Hurt that were the only worthy guys and Gonzo was the best of the also rans. I could see him pick up 2-3% of the vote in a year like that (or even more). There really was no room this year to even throw him an honorary vote.


I'm really worried about what's going to happen in the next few years.  The last couple of years of very few players added has lead to a stacked ballot.  There were at least 15 players on the ballot you could have made an argument for this year and next year adds Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, John Smoltz.

The BBWAA said that the average ballot contained 8.5 votes so, for the most part, the writers are filling their ballots.  There are a lot of guys who are probably deserving but who are just going to get pushed off the ballot over time.
 
2014-01-09 11:11:33 AM  

steamingpile: ladodger34: steamingpile: JusticeandIndependence: Gunny Highway: JusticeandIndependence: So?

Don;t act like it isnt an issue for some people.

It is.  I know that.  But it's stupid to cherry pick who they think did juice and who didn't and then vote for HOF.  My take is that they knew players were juicing at that time and rode the wave of fun that home runs and record smashing that went with it.  Now they are being very hypocritical about it.

Sorry some were obvious and would never have gotten in or been a superstar without using, Clemens career would have been over 5-6 years earlier if he didn't use. McGuire and Sosa wouldn't even be mentioned without using and hitting all those HRs. Bonds would have gotten in with his pre steroid stats but most feel his ego farked up his chances then his sanctimonious denials when its obvious he was using pisses a lot of people off and rightly so.

Oh and whoever said it earlier, biggio is good but not even close to a first ballot HoF player, he's average in almost every way.

I can assure you, a .363 lifetime OBP is well, well above average.

When only 20 guys who have played baseball have more hits than Biggio, that isn't average. If you are ranked 15 on the runs scored list, you aren't average. When only 17 guys have been on bases more often than him, that isn't average. My goodness, he hit 291 HR for a guy that was essentially a table setter.

When you start getting into top 20 all time lists for things like hits, runs scored, and being on base you aren't even close to be average. You are an all time great.

All of his stats are related to his longevity, except his obp and that mainly has to do with him always getting hit by pitches.

He was good but the earlier guy was saying he's automatic first ballot HoFer and that's just not true. And his longevity could be suspect since one of his good friends was a known user, I don't think there is much proof but he went an awful long time at a physical position without being injured.


Biggio was a compiler. So be it. Too often, people discount compilers. They forget that to be a compiler, you have to be good for a very long time to pile up all of those stats and there is a ton of value for teams to have a guy that puts up consistently good/great numbers for 20 years.

Holy hell, a guy with a career .363 obp for 5 years would nice to have.

Again, you start creeping into top 20 lists for getting on base and scoring runs you are pretty great and it shouldn't even be a debate.
 
2014-01-09 11:11:36 AM  

steamingpile: machoprogrammer: steamingpile: machoprogrammer: It is stupid, though... Mickey farking Mantle was on steroids. Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron were on amphetamines.

Pretty much every great player was cheating. Why are some cheaters celebrated, while others are vilified? Purity of the game my ass. If Bonds isn't going to get in, then the other past cheaters (Ruth, Mantle, Aaron, Gaylord Perry, among many others) should be kicked out.

You spout that bullshiat every thread this comes up and never accept how wrong you are, drugs evolved over time and the speed they had back then is not the adderal used today. It didn't focus it was used to keep people awake but it had bad side effects including jitters and eye flutters they used it to get in the game at a time when missing days for drunk/sick meant your job.

The easiest way to drive it home in today's terms would be using the most backwater shiatty meth out of Missouri and expecting the same results as using medicinal cocaine. It doesn't work the same chemically and won't get the same reactions in the human body.

It doesn't matter that it is better and more effective now days. They still farking cheated. They used the drugs to get an edge over the competition, which makes it cheating. And you think being able to stay awake with more energy isn't going to benefit a ballplayer on the road for half the season?

For example, let's say a MLB player buys some steroids off the street. Let's say it turns out that stuff is actually just vegetable oil and he got jipped (it does happen). Is he still cheating? I say yes.

You have no idea what you're talking about, if that player were to use amphetamines extensively during those days he would be out of the league since his body would break down over long periods of use. They used it as a recovery tool after too much drinking or when sick, you can't hit the ball if all your eyes see during a pitch is a ball bouncing its way to the plate. This was before free agency where teams would cu ...


Yeah, because McGwire's coach sure didn't let him play for being too big in the early 90s.

And they used an illegal substance to get an edge. That is cheating. Gaylord Perry used a spitball (an illegal pitch); should he be kicked out? Hell, he wrote a book about how he did it. Why are today's cheaters not allowed but past ones were? Hell, Ty Cobb was the best hitter of all time, but one of the biggest assholes, too. He even sharpened his spikes to injure guys when he slid into bases; intentionally trying to injure coworkers is certainly not cool.

The HOF isn't sacred and people have cheated or done shiatty things to get an edge for over a century. Why do we care now?
 
2014-01-09 11:24:16 AM  
ladodger34: steamingpile: ladodger34: steamingpile: JusticeandIndependence: Gunny Highway: JusticeandIndependence: So?

Biggio was a compiler. So be it. Too often, people discount compilers. They forget that to be a compiler, you have to be good for a very long time to pile up all of those stats and there is a ton of value for teams to have a guy that puts up consistently good/great numbers for 20 years.

Holy hell, a guy with a career .363 obp for 5 years would nice to have.

Again, you start creeping into top 20 lists for getting on base and scoring runs you are pretty great and it shouldn't even be a debate.



I agree with you.  It's one thing to be a compiler for 10 years and another to be a compiler for 20 years.  But it's important to remember that Biggio wasn't just a compiler.  He was a 4+ WAR player for nine straight seasons, a 5+ WAR player for five straight seasons, and put up a career high of 9.4 in 1997, which would have been good for 1st in the league in 2013 at least.
 
2014-01-09 11:25:24 AM  

Go Fast Turn Left: desertgeek: Roids don't help you hit the ball.

If roids can make you stronger, and being stronger can help you get the bat around quicker, roids *will* help you hit the ball because you can wait on the pitch that much longer before committing a swing.


You still have to hit the ball. Look at the long list of scrubs who have failed drug tests. Steroids are not magic dinger juice. They are not "inject self, hit ball 20 feet further". Blaming the steroid era on drugs instead of countless other more likely factors is stupid.
 
2014-01-09 11:27:06 AM  

Donnchadha: Being clutch in one at-bat does not a Hall of Famer make



Wish this had been the Boobies...nothing more needs to be said.
 
2014-01-09 11:30:48 AM  
Not a HoFer.
 
2014-01-09 11:35:58 AM  

Arkanaut: Worked for Bill Mazeroski.


Who was also the best fielding 2nd baseman ever. By a large margin.
 
2014-01-09 11:38:02 AM  

ElwoodCuse: Go Fast Turn Left: desertgeek: Roids don't help you hit the ball.

If roids can make you stronger, and being stronger can help you get the bat around quicker, roids *will* help you hit the ball because you can wait on the pitch that much longer before committing a swing.

You still have to hit the ball. Look at the long list of scrubs who have failed drug tests. Steroids are not magic dinger juice. They are not "inject self, hit ball 20 feet further". Blaming the steroid era on drugs instead of countless other more likely factors is stupid.


Suddenly those other factors also went away.
 
2014-01-09 11:38:48 AM  

machoprogrammer: He even sharpened his spikes to injure guys when he slid into bases; intentionally trying to injure coworkers is certainly not cool.


ontheoutsidecorner.files.wordpress.com

...who just put you on your ass with a little something near your adams-apple.

The Cobb spikes thing is apocryphal at best - and old-time ballplayers were as a rule some hard-ass bastards.
 
2014-01-09 11:41:20 AM  

rugman11: Seat's Taken:
I think Clemens and Bonds should pool some of their ridiculous money to start a smear campaign on some the the BBWAA voters, bringing to light anything shady that they did to get their status.  I'm guessing it wouldn't take a PI long to start pulling up illegal stuff they've done. That could be fun.

I don't see what it would do.  Bill Conlin is still a "Member in Good Standing" despite resigning two years ago in the face of multiple allegations of child molestation.  If the BBWAA will still let him vote after that I don't see what stuff a PI could pull up that would be worse.


Well, I made that comment without any research or knowledge regarding the voters, so your post was enlightening and makes it even more absurd that the BBWAA get to act as judge and jury for players never officially caught using steroids.  I'm not condoning cheating, I just don't understand how they can be all high and mighty with their votes on people never caught and have baseball careers that undoubtedly are HOF worthy.  One of the worst parts of the "steroid era" is the demeaning of the HOF.
 
2014-01-09 11:45:52 AM  

Donnchadha: Being clutch in one at-bat does not a Hall of Famer make


If that's all it took, Todd Pratt would be a HoFer
 
2014-01-09 11:50:28 AM  

Gulper Eel: Arkanaut: Worked for Bill Mazeroski.

Who was also one of the best defensive second basemen ever.

desertgeek: I don't think Piazza has really been tied to PEDs. He might be suspected of juicing, but I've never heard him tied directly to anything.

I don't even care about that with Piazza. He was average-to-mediocre behind the plate. Supposedly he called an okay game, but what's the point of all that power if you're going to let every runner on first faster than Sal Fasano just stroll into second?

Eventually he gets in because of all that offense, but overall he's a hair shy of Gibson, Bench, Berra, the Pudges, Dickey, Carter and Campanella.


"supposedly"? Really?

That's your argument?

He actually wasn't nearly as bad as you think, defensively.
 
2014-01-09 11:53:13 AM  
This is the Hall of Fame. That means you need to be famous to get in. And quite frankly there are only two teams that fit the bill, The Yankees and the Red Sox. If you are not a member of these two squads, you do not belong in the Hall of Fame and are probably taking a Yankee or Red Sox spot, so get out. The rest of the league is like the Washington Generals, irrelevant. Being a part of the Yankees or Red Sox, you had to endure everyone's A game while the other games had inflated stats due to the abundance of inferior talent on these other sub-worthy teams. Steroids are for cheats except for Yankees or Red Sox since they always had gruelling contests, their use was expected. The National League is nothing more than a minor league and as such should be designated AAAA. It is unfortunate when other teams eliminate the Yankees or Red Sox from their rightful place as World Series victors and I firmly believe there should be a juicing investigation of any team that eliminates them.
 
2014-01-09 11:55:15 AM  
I find Sosa's inclusion with the juicers interesting. think about it. He was never caught. never tested positive. never said he did it. yet it is just assumed he is a juicer. and I think he was too, I am not saying he wasn't. But really, he should be in the same pile as Piazza and Gonzales, where most think he did, but there is no proof.
 
2014-01-09 11:55:52 AM  

yakmans_dad: Who was also the best fielding 2nd baseman ever. By a large margin.


Gulper Eel: Who was also one of the best defensive second basemen ever.


Yeah, and it took the Veterans Committee to get him in.  The BBWAA doesn't care about fielding, they care about offense.

Omar Vizquel is one of the greatest fielding shortstops of all time, but with few notable postseason hits.  Let's see if he can make it in on the first few tries (apparently he was still playing as of 2 years ago?!?!) -- I somehow doubt it.
 
2014-01-09 11:58:08 AM  

USCLaw2010: Andruw jones hit 2 homers in his first 2 World Series at bats. Let's put him in with Maddox and Glavine


Actually, Jones should go in easily.  He's got 400 home runs and is the best defensive outfielder ever.  Actually ever.
 
2014-01-09 11:59:08 AM  

Rex_Banner: EyeballKid: R.E.D DAD: I'm sorry, but never in any discussion concerning Biggio and the HOF should the word "debatable" be used.  He is a first ballot in every since of the word. His numbers are off the charts and they were sustained.

Uh huh. Which resulted in his team winning...?


Yep, sorry, these things matter.

Ted Williams says hi


So does Ernie Banks.
 
2014-01-09 12:01:43 PM  

Arkanaut: The BBWAA doesn't care about fielding, they care about offense.

static.foxsports.com

"Oh, you!"
 
2014-01-09 12:07:42 PM  

machoprogrammer: steamingpile: machoprogrammer: steamingpile: machoprogrammer: It is stupid, though... Mickey farking Mantle was on steroids. Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron were on amphetamines.

Pretty much every great player was cheating. Why are some cheaters celebrated, while others are vilified? Purity of the game my ass. If Bonds isn't going to get in, then the other past cheaters (Ruth, Mantle, Aaron, Gaylord Perry, among many others) should be kicked out.

You spout that bullshiat every thread this comes up and never accept how wrong you are, drugs evolved over time and the speed they had back then is not the adderal used today. It didn't focus it was used to keep people awake but it had bad side effects including jitters and eye flutters they used it to get in the game at a time when missing days for drunk/sick meant your job.

The easiest way to drive it home in today's terms would be using the most backwater shiatty meth out of Missouri and expecting the same results as using medicinal cocaine. It doesn't work the same chemically and won't get the same reactions in the human body.

It doesn't matter that it is better and more effective now days. They still farking cheated. They used the drugs to get an edge over the competition, which makes it cheating. And you think being able to stay awake with more energy isn't going to benefit a ballplayer on the road for half the season?

For example, let's say a MLB player buys some steroids off the street. Let's say it turns out that stuff is actually just vegetable oil and he got jipped (it does happen). Is he still cheating? I say yes.

You have no idea what you're talking about, if that player were to use amphetamines extensively during those days he would be out of the league since his body would break down over long periods of use. They used it as a recovery tool after too much drinking or when sick, you can't hit the ball if all your eyes see during a pitch is a ball bouncing its way to the plate. This was before free agency where teams would cu ...

Yeah, because McGwire's coach sure didn't let him play for being too big in the early 90s.

And they used an illegal substance to get an edge. That is cheating. Gaylord Perry used a spitball (an illegal pitch); should he be kicked out? Hell, he wrote a book about how he did it. Why are today's cheaters not allowed but past ones were? Hell, Ty Cobb was the best hitter of all time, but one of the biggest assholes, too. He even sharpened his spikes to injure guys when he slid into bases; intentionally trying to injure coworkers is certainly not cool.

The HOF isn't sacred and people have cheated or done shiatty things to get an edge for over a century. Why do we care now?


Mainly because it denied others the right to take their place by lengthening their careers, people forget Clemens was done, Bonds had chronic knee issues, McGwire had back issues, Sosa was barely average to start with so taking all that into account its more glaring.

Drugs back in the old days had harsher repercussions than the regulated doses do now.

And cheating you are referring too has no comparison in the real world steroids were illegal in the real world. Comparing Cobb in the same sphere of cheating is just moronic since all the players did shiat like that to win since they got bonuses, the book wrote about him off the field has widely been shiat on as fabrications and a lot of outright lies. Old players said sure Ty was a prick in the field but he was decent off the field and helped players out if he could help them win.

You just need to quit arguing the point, you don't understand and I doubt you ever will, but I'm sure you will be pushing for robotic limbs when those get perfected as well.
 
2014-01-09 12:07:51 PM  

Arkanaut: yakmans_dad: Who was also the best fielding 2nd baseman ever. By a large margin.

Gulper Eel: Who was also one of the best defensive second basemen ever.

Yeah, and it took the Veterans Committee to get him in.  The BBWAA doesn't care about fielding, they care about offense.


Brooks Robinson batted .267 for his career and is one of a handful of players to get into the Hall on the first ballot.
 
2014-01-09 12:13:20 PM  

yakmans_dad: Arkanaut: yakmans_dad: Who was also the best fielding 2nd baseman ever. By a large margin.

Gulper Eel: Who was also one of the best defensive second basemen ever.

Yeah, and it took the Veterans Committee to get him in.  The BBWAA doesn't care about fielding, they care about offense.

Brooks Robinson batted .267 for his career and is one of a handful of players to get into the Hall on the first ballot.


I just checked. The other contender for greatest fielding 3rd baseman ever also batted .267 for his career and also made it into the Hall of Fame on his first try. Interesting, yes?
 
2014-01-09 12:19:44 PM  

BKITU: Arkanaut: The BBWAA doesn't care about fielding, they care about offense.
[static.foxsports.com image 660x320]

"Oh, you!"


And yet around the time he got voted in, ESPN was all about the home run he hit against the Dodgers to win Game 5 of the 1985 NLCS.
 
2014-01-09 12:22:40 PM  
The difference between the current batch of dopers is that it is and was expressly forbidden by the rules of baseball.  The use of performance enhancing drugs was against the written rules of baseball.  You can thank the players' union for not allowing that rule to be enforced, but it doesn't mean it didn't exist.  What Mantle and Ruth are accused of was not against the rules of baseball at the time
 
2014-01-09 12:23:59 PM  

yakmans_dad: Arkanaut: yakmans_dad: Who was also the best fielding 2nd baseman ever. By a large margin.

Gulper Eel: Who was also one of the best defensive second basemen ever.

Yeah, and it took the Veterans Committee to get him in.  The BBWAA doesn't care about fielding, they care about offense.

Brooks Robinson batted .267 for his career and is one of a handful of players to get into the Hall on the first ballot.


He also had 1357 career RBIs in a pitcher-dominated era.  It's not like he was Mario Mendoza.
 
2014-01-09 12:24:43 PM  

steamingpile: Drugs back in the old days had harsher repercussions than the regulated doses do now.


I will admit Ty Cobb was a stretch on my part.

But cheating is only OK if the drugs have worse consequences? Cheating is cheating. You think it was acceptable that the older players used amphetamines for a pick me up since they had more consequences?
 
2014-01-09 12:25:37 PM  

Arkanaut: BKITU: Arkanaut: The BBWAA doesn't care about fielding, they care about offense.
[static.foxsports.com image 660x320]

"Oh, you!"

And yet around the time he got voted in, ESPN was all about the home run he hit against the Dodgers to win Game 5 of the 1985 NLCS.


Right, but that's not what got him into the Hall. It's an interesting sidenote, but one clutch, didn't-see-it-coming-from-this-guy homer does not a HoF entry make. I promise you: if the Cards lose that series and Ozzie whiffs on that AB, he still makes the Hall first-ballot.
 
2014-01-09 12:25:48 PM  

yakmans_dad: yakmans_dad: Arkanaut: yakmans_dad: Who was also the best fielding 2nd baseman ever. By a large margin.

Gulper Eel: Who was also one of the best defensive second basemen ever.

Yeah, and it took the Veterans Committee to get him in.  The BBWAA doesn't care about fielding, they care about offense.

Brooks Robinson batted .267 for his career and is one of a handful of players to get into the Hall on the first ballot.

I just checked. The other contender for greatest fielding 3rd baseman ever also batted .267 for his career and also made it into the Hall of Fame on his first try. Interesting, yes?


Michael Jack Schmidt? Are you seriously going to argue he was a poor hitter?

Maybe it's time to leave, I don't even know who's trolling whom anymore.
 
2014-01-09 12:36:40 PM  

ElwoodCuse: You still have to hit the ball. Look at the long list of scrubs who have failed drug tests. Steroids are not magic dinger juice. They are not "inject self, hit ball 20 feet further". Blaming the steroid era on drugs instead of countless other more likely factors is stupid.


Makes me wonder why players even bother with steroids ... sounds like they're useless.
 
2014-01-09 12:40:03 PM  

Slow To Return: Makes me wonder why players even bother with steroids ... sounds like they're useless.


www.nndb.com

I know, right?

/too soon?
 
2014-01-09 12:47:35 PM  

Arkanaut: yakmans_dad: yakmans_dad: Arkanaut: yakmans_dad: Who was also the best fielding 2nd baseman ever. By a large margin.

Gulper Eel: Who was also one of the best defensive second basemen ever.

Yeah, and it took the Veterans Committee to get him in.  The BBWAA doesn't care about fielding, they care about offense.

Brooks Robinson batted .267 for his career and is one of a handful of players to get into the Hall on the first ballot.

I just checked. The other contender for greatest fielding 3rd baseman ever also batted .267 for his career and also made it into the Hall of Fame on his first try. Interesting, yes?

Michael Jack Schmidt? Are you seriously going to argue he was a poor hitter?

Maybe it's time to leave, I don't even know who's trolling whom anymore.


.257 was his career batting average. Which is all I posted. Are you insinuating that Brooks Robinson paid me to post that?
 
2014-01-09 12:48:55 PM  

Gulper Eel: The Cobb spikes thing is apocryphal at best - and old-time ballplayers were as a rule some hard-ass bastards.


That article basically consists of allegation said to be not true, acknowledgement that it was true (but the norm for that period of time), rinse repeat.
 
2014-01-09 12:54:04 PM  

JusticeandIndependence: He is a great player no doubt, but not a shoe in, first ballot.


3000 hits puts him in the hall of fame.

The end.
 
2014-01-09 12:57:02 PM  

zarberg: Slow To Return: Makes me wonder why players even bother with steroids ... sounds like they're useless.

[www.nndb.com image 216x305]

I know, right?

/too soon?


Caminiti's '96 campaign was just unreal, perhaps the best ever single season by a third baseman. Steroids might have bulked him, but they didn't give him the lightning reflexes and accuracy he had at third base. I personally witnessed him dive to spear a hot grounder down the line, spin around on his butt to face first base, and throw from a seated position to get the runner out by a more than a step. Not stand, not get on his knees. Threw from a seated position, while falling away from his target base, and the play wasn't close.

He might have been on cocaine at that point and seeing things in bullet time. He definitely could have competed at the All Drug Olympics, but it was fun as hell to watch.
 
2014-01-09 12:58:13 PM  

USCLaw2010: Andruw jones hit 2 homers in his first 2 World Series at bats. Let's put him in with Maddox and Glavine


To be fair, Andruw Jones should be in the hall of fame.

He is one of, if not the, greatest defensive center fielder to ever play the game of baseball. Throw in enough power to close the gap and you have a borderline HoFer that gets in after 10 years or so. I mean, considering there hasn't been any connection to steroids, he may get even more play.

It stinks that laziness and food pushed him out of the game once his god given natural ability started to wane because of injuries and age.
 
2014-01-09 01:02:08 PM  

bulldg4life: USCLaw2010: Andruw jones hit 2 homers in his first 2 World Series at bats. Let's put him in with Maddox and Glavine

To be fair, Andruw Jones should be in the hall of fame.

He is one of, if not the, greatest defensive center fielder to ever play the game of baseball. Throw in enough power to close the gap and you have a borderline HoFer that gets in after 10 years or so. I mean, considering there hasn't been any connection to steroids, he may get even more play.

It stinks that laziness and food pushed him out of the game once his god given natural ability started to wane because of injuries and age.


He's the greatest by a wide, wide margin.

What "damns" him is age.  Specifically, coming up early.  He came up at 19, had his first down year at 30, and limped his way to being an old fat slow 35 year old.  Add 5 years to all those numbers and he becomes respectable.  If he came up at 24, played great for a decade, slowed at 35, and finally limped into the sunset at 40, nobody would mind.
 
2014-01-09 01:11:50 PM  

UNC_Samurai: People voted for:

Jacque Jones
Kenny Rogers
Armando Benitez
J.T. Snow
Hideo Nomo

Hell, Moises freaking Alou got SIX VOTES!!!

But about 15 people did not vote for Greg Maddux.

And people are upset at LeBatard for letting Deadspin readers vote (I admit, I'm still a reader and I voted, the two lowest vote-getters I voted for were Lee Smith and Edgar Martinez)???

/I invoked Moises Alou, where's our relevant Farker?


Well, it's the Baseball Hall of Fame, not the MLB Hall of Fame(ignoring the election criteria for the moment).  I think that Nomo gets an exception to his middling overall career for his impact on the game as it regards to Japanese(and Korean) players coming over and being successful
 
2014-01-09 01:14:01 PM  

BKITU: Caminiti's '96 campaign was just unreal, perhaps the best ever single season by a third baseman.


Dude...come on.
Offensive Stats ---slash-----obp/slg----ops+----extra
Caminiti 96: 326/40/130----408/621----174----99 SO, 11 steals, 37 doubles

Jones 99:    319/45/110----441/633----169----94 SO, 25 steals, 45 doubles

Defensive Stats
Caminiti: .954 with 20 errors
Jones: .950 with 17 errors

A switch freaking hitter.

I don't even know if I would say that Chipper Jones' 1999 was the best single season by a third baseman ever, but it is as good or better than Caminiti's 1996. Hell, Chipper Jones' 1996 wasn't that far off from Caminiti's 1996...
 
2014-01-09 01:14:16 PM  

bulldg4life: USCLaw2010: Andruw jones hit 2 homers in his first 2 World Series at bats. Let's put him in with Maddox and Glavine

To be fair, Andruw Jones should be in the hall of fame.

He is one of, if not the, greatest defensive center fielder to ever play the game of baseball. Throw in enough power to close the gap and you have a borderline HoFer that gets in after 10 years or so. I mean, considering there hasn't been any connection to steroids, he may get even more play.

It stinks that laziness and food pushed him out of the game once his god given natural ability started to wane because of injuries and age.


I'm really interested in seeing how Jones does when he gets on the ballot. He absolutely SHOULD go in, but I kinda feel like he'll go 15 years without making it.
 
2014-01-09 01:21:03 PM  

Rex_Banner: I'm really interested in seeing how Jones does when he gets on the ballot. He absolutely SHOULD go in, but I kinda feel like he'll go 15 years without making it.


Yeah, I just don't know.

Out of the game by 35 with a stupidly ridiculous drop off between 29 and 31. I mean, holy crap. It's like he sold his soul to the devil for 10 great years and then the devil said "pay up, motherf*cker" in August of 2007. I don't think he has the offensive dominance over his first decade to get people to look past the horrid last half dozen years.

If he could've sustained his career averages until 33, then he could've had 500 homers plus his defense and probably snuck in.
 
2014-01-09 01:22:35 PM  

Rex_Banner: I'm really interested in seeing how Jones does when he gets on the ballot. He absolutely SHOULD go in, but I kinda feel like he'll go 15 years without making it.


4 times he led the league in defensive WAR, and once came in 2nd. 6 times he lead the league in Total Zone runs.

Add to that he was a decent home run hitter and a decent base swiper ... he  should be in, but yeah, he might not make it in because of how he faded at the end.
 
2014-01-09 01:24:38 PM  

Rex_Banner: bulldg4life: USCLaw2010: Andruw jones hit 2 homers in his first 2 World Series at bats. Let's put him in with Maddox and Glavine

To be fair, Andruw Jones should be in the hall of fame.

He is one of, if not the, greatest defensive center fielder to ever play the game of baseball. Throw in enough power to close the gap and you have a borderline HoFer that gets in after 10 years or so. I mean, considering there hasn't been any connection to steroids, he may get even more play.

It stinks that laziness and food pushed him out of the game once his god given natural ability started to wane because of injuries and age.

I'm really interested in seeing how Jones does when he gets on the ballot. He absolutely SHOULD go in, but I kinda feel like he'll go 15 years without making it.


Eh, Jones was very good, but I don't know about HoF.  Jim Edmonds was a better hitter and you can make easy arguments about the quality of his defense up against Jones.

Then again, Jim Rice is apparently a hall of famer, so stranger things have happened.  Meanwhile, Don Mattingly is not in the hall of fame and not even getting close.
 
2014-01-09 01:25:59 PM  

JusticeandIndependence: R.E.D DAD: JusticeandIndependence: Can we talk about HOF process on the whole or just about Luis Gonzalez?

Luis was a good player but not HOF.

Glavine, Maddux, and Thomas should be in.  BUT I think the writers should either let everyone in from the steroid era or none.

Based on stats.
Bonds should be in
Sosa should be in
Clemens should be in
McGwire should be in
Piazza should be in
Palmeiro should be in
Biggio and Bagwell are debateable

Stupid writers thinking they are doing something honorable now when they promoted these guys while they were playing.

I'm sorry, but never in any discussion concerning Biggio and the HOF should the word "debatable" be used.  He is a first ballot in every since of the word. His numbers are off the charts and they were sustained. If he had played in NY or LA he would have gone in with 97% vote.  But then let's not get started on how someone can't get 100%.

I'd debate it.  He was a great player and did it for a long time on one team.  but off the charts?

His best season was .325 with 20 HR and 88 RBI's  50 SB is an eye catcher and a great season.  His career 414 puts him 66th all time stolen bases.

He is a great player no doubt, but not a shoe in, first ballot.


THIS. He was always a very good, but never dominate player. He had an awesome 1997-1998, he made a few All Star appearances, had a few Silver Slugger awards, but he was never really in the conversation for MVP, and never won a batting title even though he had about 3000 hits.
 
2014-01-09 01:29:37 PM  

H31N0US: Donnchadha: Being clutch in one at-bat does not a Hall of Famer make

Yep. And if that changes, I nominate Aaron Boone for the HoF. At least he hit it out, not a dinker over the head of an infielder who was playing too tight.


One at bat? Then Bucky "Farking" Dent.
 
2014-01-09 01:33:34 PM  

Munchausen's Proxy: The difference between the current batch of dopers is that it is and was expressly forbidden by the rules of baseball.  The use of performance enhancing drugs was against the written rules of baseball.  You can thank the players' union for not allowing that rule to be enforced, but it doesn't mean it didn't exist.  What Mantle and Ruth are accused of was not against the rules of baseball at the time


Fine, blame the union. But aside from the toothless memo that Vincent sent out in '91, steroids weren't specifically banned. It wasn't until much more recently ('05) that players were tested and punished for PED use.

Prior to that, PEDs were treated the same as coke or weed.
 
2014-01-09 01:38:54 PM  

bhcompy: Rex_Banner: bulldg4life: USCLaw2010: Andruw jones hit 2 homers in his first 2 World Series at bats. Let's put him in with Maddox and Glavine

To be fair, Andruw Jones should be in the hall of fame.

He is one of, if not the, greatest defensive center fielder to ever play the game of baseball. Throw in enough power to close the gap and you have a borderline HoFer that gets in after 10 years or so. I mean, considering there hasn't been any connection to steroids, he may get even more play.

It stinks that laziness and food pushed him out of the game once his god given natural ability started to wane because of injuries and age.

I'm really interested in seeing how Jones does when he gets on the ballot. He absolutely SHOULD go in, but I kinda feel like he'll go 15 years without making it.

Eh, Jones was very good, but I don't know about HoF.  Jim Edmonds was a better hitter and you can make easy arguments about the quality of his defense up against Jones.

Then again, Jim Rice is apparently a hall of famer, so stranger things have happened.  Meanwhile, Don Mattingly is not in the hall of fame and not even getting close.


No you can't.  Every advanced metric has Jones light years ahead of every other outfielder, ever.

Edmonds made a bunch of diving catches.

You can make a decent case for Edmonds being in the Hall in his own right, although he's another guy who gets punished for walking too much (turn a third of his roughly 1000 walks into at bats and he reaches 2000 hits, for example).

But defensively, there isn't any comparison.

dWAR (which can kinda suck) has Jones at 24.1 and Edmonds at 5.9.  No other outfielder is anywhere near Jones on that list.

Fangraphs lists Jones at 3rd all time in Total Zone at 220 (that's third among all players, and it's a list dominated by infielders).  Edmonds is at 90.  This is a weird one, since Barry Bonds is 6th, and that's weird.

Fangraphs also has some other advanced fielding metrics, but these only measure from 2002 on. This cuts out 5 of Jones' best defensive seasons, and a 31 game first year as well.

Using that, Jones is 3rd in UZR/150, and 3rd in their comprehensive defense stat.  The next outfielder is Aaron Rowand (huh) at 23rd, with a comprehensive defense stat of about half of Jones's.  And this is cutting out 5+ great years from Jones.  Edmonds isn't anywhere near this list, but cutting off nearly a decade of his career is harsh.

Jones is way, way, way, way, way better than Edmonds defensively.
 
2014-01-09 01:50:37 PM  
All those great diving catches that Jim Edmunds made? Andruw Jones also caught those balls. He just got there a couple steps quicker and either camped out under them or caught them on the run
 
2014-01-09 01:54:20 PM  

Dafatone: bulldg4life: USCLaw2010: Andruw jones hit 2 homers in his first 2 World Series at bats. Let's put him in with Maddox and Glavine

To be fair, Andruw Jones should be in the hall of fame.

He is one of, if not the, greatest defensive center fielder to ever play the game of baseball. Throw in enough power to close the gap and you have a borderline HoFer that gets in after 10 years or so. I mean, considering there hasn't been any connection to steroids, he may get even more play.

It stinks that laziness and food pushed him out of the game once his god given natural ability started to wane because of injuries and age.

He's the greatest by a wide, wide margin.

What "damns" him is age.  Specifically, coming up early.  He came up at 19, had his first down year at 30, and limped his way to being an old fat slow 35 year old.  Add 5 years to all those numbers and he becomes respectable.  If he came up at 24, played great for a decade, slowed at 35, and finally limped into the sunset at 40, nobody would mind he'd be Frank Thomas.


Not quite, but Frank Thomas's Career Average WAR - 3.87, Andruw Jones's Career Average WAR - 3.69
 
2014-01-09 01:54:25 PM  

Rex_Banner: All those great diving catches that Jim Edmunds made? Andruw Jones also caught those balls. He just got there a couple steps quicker and either camped out under them or caught them on the run


This is precisely why Jeter is not nearly as good defensively as every layman thinks. All those amazing dives, and catch-and-spin throws? Even an average shortstop makes that as a routine play.

Jeter turned routine plays into highlight reel dives and stops.
 
2014-01-09 01:56:54 PM  

ladodger34: Munchausen's Proxy: The difference between the current batch of dopers is that it is and was expressly forbidden by the rules of baseball.  The use of performance enhancing drugs was against the written rules of baseball.  You can thank the players' union for not allowing that rule to be enforced, but it doesn't mean it didn't exist.  What Mantle and Ruth are accused of was not against the rules of baseball at the time

Fine, blame the union. But aside from the toothless memo that Vincent sent out in '91, steroids weren't specifically banned. It wasn't until much more recently ('05) that players were tested and punished for PED use.

Prior to that, PEDs were treated the same as coke or weed.


First, how can you not blame the union?  They refused to allow its enforcement.  Second, the memorandum was the rule and one that Bud Selig later reissued.  Just because they were not tested does not mean it was legal at that time.  From the time of Vincent's memorandum on the topic, they were illegal in MLB
 
2014-01-09 02:01:19 PM  

Munchausen's Proxy: First, how can you not blame the union?  They refused to allow its enforcement.  Second, the memorandum was the rule and one that Bud Selig later reissued.  Just because they were not tested does not mean it was legal at that time.  From the time of Vincent's memorandum on the topic, they were illegal in MLB


It's been said before that MLB gave tacit approval to PEDs by not enforcing/addressing the issue because of the massive surge in popularity the home run race between McGwire and Sosa brought to the game.
 
2014-01-09 02:08:31 PM  

zarberg: Rex_Banner: All those great diving catches that Jim Edmunds made? Andruw Jones also caught those balls. He just got there a couple steps quicker and either camped out under them or caught them on the run

This is precisely why Jeter is not nearly as good defensively as every layman thinks. All those amazing dives, and catch-and-spin throws? Even an average shortstop makes that as a routine play.

Jeter turned routine plays into highlight reel dives and stops.


Not quite... Jeter has to hustle to make those plays, his range is just smaller than the average SS so he has no choice.

Edmumnds sometimes would get a late jump, but more often than not he would circle around and time a dive.  He was completely physically capable of making those plays look standard, he just refused to.
 
2014-01-09 02:16:32 PM  

zarberg: Rex_Banner: All those great diving catches that Jim Edmunds made? Andruw Jones also caught those balls. He just got there a couple steps quicker and either camped out under them or caught them on the run

This is precisely why Jeter is not nearly as good defensively as every layman thinks. All those amazing dives, and catch-and-spin throws? Even an average shortstop makes that as a routine play.

Jeter turned routine plays into highlight reel dives and stops.


How dare you. Derek Jeter has 5 Gold Gloves. And they ALWAYS give that award to the right guy.
 
2014-01-09 02:18:47 PM  

Munchausen's Proxy: ladodger34: Munchausen's Proxy: The difference between the current batch of dopers is that it is and was expressly forbidden by the rules of baseball.  The use of performance enhancing drugs was against the written rules of baseball.  You can thank the players' union for not allowing that rule to be enforced, but it doesn't mean it didn't exist.  What Mantle and Ruth are accused of was not against the rules of baseball at the time

Fine, blame the union. But aside from the toothless memo that Vincent sent out in '91, steroids weren't specifically banned. It wasn't until much more recently ('05) that players were tested and punished for PED use.

Prior to that, PEDs were treated the same as coke or weed.

First, how can you not blame the union?  They refused to allow its enforcement.  Second, the memorandum was the rule and one that Bud Selig later reissued.  Just because they were not tested does not mean it was legal at that time.  From the time of Vincent's memorandum on the topic, they were illegal in MLB


No, many many people have said that Vincent's memo was basically meaningless especially since any drug testing issues were subject to Collective Bargaining. Fay's memo was essentially a CYA move.

Until '05, steroids/peds were treated the same as other illegal drugs. Unless you got caught by the law (Steve Howe, Strawberry, Gooden) baseball looked the other way.
 
2014-01-09 02:32:13 PM  
Let them all 'roid out... enhance the players with cybernetics. Breed players with custom genetics.

Embrace the future - Baseball, basketball, football (not Hockey, those guys already play at an insane physical level anyway) - let's see how far a human being can be pushed. Let them sign waivers and let the games begin!!

img2u.info
 
2014-01-09 02:32:25 PM  

zarberg: Munchausen's Proxy: First, how can you not blame the union?  They refused to allow its enforcement.  Second, the memorandum was the rule and one that Bud Selig later reissued.  Just because they were not tested does not mean it was legal at that time.  From the time of Vincent's memorandum on the topic, they were illegal in MLB

It's been said before that MLB gave tacit approval to PEDs by not enforcing/addressing the issue because of the massive surge in popularity the home run race between McGwire and Sosa brought to the game.


Let's be real, there is no one single guilty party here.  The league knew this was going on and didn't want to do anything about it because it put butts in seats and eyes on screens and they weren't willing to risk decreasing their viewership numbers.  The writers knew this was going on and were unwilling to condemn it because record setting players are exciting and it gives them something to write about.  The players' union was fully aware that this stuff was going on and refused to allow testing because the players wanted to lengthen their careers and salaries
 
2014-01-09 02:45:14 PM  

flak attack: zarberg: Munchausen's Proxy: First, how can you not blame the union?  They refused to allow its enforcement.  Second, the memorandum was the rule and one that Bud Selig later reissued.  Just because they were not tested does not mean it was legal at that time.  From the time of Vincent's memorandum on the topic, they were illegal in MLB

It's been said before that MLB gave tacit approval to PEDs by not enforcing/addressing the issue because of the massive surge in popularity the home run race between McGwire and Sosa brought to the game.

Let's be real, there is no one single guilty party here.  The league knew this was going on and didn't want to do anything about it because it put butts in seats and eyes on screens and they weren't willing to risk decreasing their viewership numbers.  The writers knew this was going on and were unwilling to condemn it because record setting players are exciting and it gives them something to write about.  The players' union was fully aware that this stuff was going on and refused to allow testing because the players wanted to lengthen their careers and salaries


Excellent points. I never meant to place the blame on MLB specifically, only that they gave unofficial approval by not saying anything because juicing = more fans and more money for them.
 
2014-01-09 02:58:13 PM  

Cubs300: I walked with the bases loaded to win a junior varsity game my sophomore year in HS. Where's my HOF plaque?

/got the win in relief, too.


static1.wikia.nocookie.net

cool story Al.
 
2014-01-09 03:24:58 PM  

machoprogrammer: steamingpile: Drugs back in the old days had harsher repercussions than the regulated doses do now.

I will admit Ty Cobb was a stretch on my part.

But cheating is only OK if the drugs have worse consequences? Cheating is cheating. You think it was acceptable that the older players used amphetamines for a pick me up since they had more consequences?


What I'm saying is that greenies did nothing for you other than make you stand upright, most players that wanted laser focus and enhanced energy did coke.

Pharmacology has progressed leaps and bounds where it was just 20 years ago so 40-45 years ago would be considered the dark ages. Hell even a lot of bodybuilders didn't do a lot of steroids until the mid-late 70s because it was imperfect and would fark you up more for competitions than help. But when they perfected it you can see a noticeable difference in muscle mass and definition, the guys who were champions back them would barely be in the top 10 now.

Also what everyone is failing to mention is most of what they were taking wasn't illegal, steroids are illegal now and they were breaking numerous laws to obtain it.
 
2014-01-09 03:37:34 PM  

USCLaw2010: Andruw jones hit 2 homers in his first 2 World Series at bats. Let's put him in with Maddox and Glavine


Actually, he will probably be in one day.
 
2014-01-09 03:40:04 PM  

coolio mack: The Hall of Fame to me has always meant either players that transformed the way the game is played or dominant players in the era they played in.


Good, so let's just take out pretty much every non-first baseman infielder in the Hall of Fame. Got it. It makes perfect sense!
 
2014-01-09 03:42:29 PM  
Oh, and I'll just say this:

IF POSITION MATTERS*, CRAIG BIGGIO AND EDGAR MARTINEZ DESERVE TO BE IN THE HALL OF FAME

*and it apparently does, because everyone has made Mariano Rivera a first-ballot lock when he leaves, and he has a job that's not even CLOSE to being as important to the outcome of a game as a designated hitter or second baseman
 
2014-01-09 03:51:36 PM  

desertgeek: Pre-roids, McGuire and Sosa were average players.


Sosa, yes. McGwire was an injury case who had the most home runs during a season throughout the 1980s (as a rookie), so I mean at one point he was definitely far beyond average... of course, by the time the mid 90s came around, he was a liability before he found his magic sauce.

desertgeek: Palmeiro should be in. Roids don't help you hit the ball.


I mean using the Clemens/Bonds reasoning, I guess. But steroids do help you hit the ball, as well as extend careers by, sometimes, five years or more.
 
2014-01-09 03:55:04 PM  

puffy999: I mean using the Clemens/Bonds reasoning, I guess. But steroids do help you hit the ball, as well as extend careers by, sometimes, five years or more.


That argument is one that actually works in one of the suspected juicer's favors ... if Piazza was juicing, why did he suffer the same early-to-mid-30's breakdown that most players suffer? He was a regular on the DL for the last half of his career, shouldn't steroids have helped that?
 
2014-01-09 04:01:50 PM  

zarberg: puffy999: I mean using the Clemens/Bonds reasoning, I guess. But steroids do help you hit the ball, as well as extend careers by, sometimes, five years or more.

That argument is one that actually works in one of the suspected juicer's favors ... if Piazza was juicing, why did he suffer the same early-to-mid-30's breakdown that most players suffer? He was a regular on the DL for the last half of his career, shouldn't steroids have helped that?


Piazza is pretty low on the list of suspected juicers, though.  He's as likely a juicer as Griffey
 
2014-01-09 04:04:45 PM  

BKITU: Caminiti's '96 campaign was just unreal, perhaps the best ever single season by a third baseman. Steroids might have bulked him, but they didn't give him the lightning reflexes and accuracy he had at third base.


First, people who take steroids probably aren't against taking other substances (legal, prescription, or illicit). It's funny, I originally missed your cocaine comment, because I was going to suggest that...

Second, not all PEDs are "steroids" necessarily, and one can improve quickness/burst while enhancing muscle mass.

Dafatone: He's the greatest by a wide, wide margin.


Never discussed: he is one of the great defensive CFs who benefited from the easiest ballpark layout ever conceived for an outfielder, in an area with relatively little wind, and did so behind some decent pitching. Imagine him playing in Candlestick (wind) or Fenway/olde-tyme-style parks... not that he WOULDN'T have been a superstar defensive player, just that his defensive WAR and range wouldn't have been quite so spectacular.
 
2014-01-09 04:13:52 PM  

desertgeek: Pre-roids, McGuire and Sosa were average players. They don't belong.


What?  McGwire was an All-Star 8 or 9 times (not to mention Rooke of the Year) before he started to juice.  He helped the A's to 3 World Series appearances in 3 years.  Are you sure about that?

Not saying he deserves to be HoF now, but he had a pretty good chance before he went boneheaded with juicing.
 
2014-01-09 04:15:32 PM  

bhcompy: Piazza is pretty low on the list of suspected juicers, though. He's as likely a juicer as Griffey


Oh, no, I'd be much, much, MUCH more likely to suspect Piazza than Griffey. And I don't necessarily suspect Piazza.

If only Griffey had not played on concrete during his prime... he may very well have had the home run record and the career that he deserved to finish with.

Oh, and pursuant to my Andruw Jones argument, people don't realize how tough it is on your body to play a good portion of your career on what is, effectively, concrete with a carpet on top. Griffey's fielding seemed to start to drop even before he went to Cincy and became one of the walking wounded.
And, no, he's NOT comparable to Jones on defense... I'm just using that as an example for anyone who were to suggest that a domed cookie-cutter park (or the old Kauffman Stadium turf) would be a better defensive environment than a grassy field. Your range for a few games would probably improve, but over the course of a season/career it may be worse for defensive ratings than playing in a windy park with a grass field.
 
2014-01-09 04:30:07 PM  

R.E.D DAD: JusticeandIndependence: R.E.D DAD: JusticeandIndependence: Can we talk about HOF process on the whole or just about Luis Gonzalez?

Luis was a good player but not HOF.

Glavine, Maddux, and Thomas should be in.  BUT I think the writers should either let everyone in from the steroid era or none.

Based on stats.
Bonds should be in
Sosa should be in
Clemens should be in
McGwire should be in
Piazza should be in
Palmeiro should be in
Biggio and Bagwell are debateable

Stupid writers thinking they are doing something honorable now when they promoted these guys while they were playing.

I'm sorry, but never in any discussion concerning Biggio and the HOF should the word "debatable" be used.  He is a first ballot in every since of the word. His numbers are off the charts and they were sustained. If he had played in NY or LA he would have gone in with 97% vote.  But then let's not get started on how someone can't get 100%.

I'd debate it.  He was a great player and did it for a long time on one team.  but off the charts?

His best season was .325 with 20 HR and 88 RBI's  50 SB is an eye catcher and a great season.  His career 414 puts him 66th all time stolen bases.

He is a great player no doubt, but not a shoe in, first ballot.

His 3,060 hits should put him in immediately.  There are only 2 others that have more than 3000 and aren't in....Rose and Palmeiro.  And there are only 28 members of the 3000 hit club.  He scored 1800+ runs and had a career OBP of .363.  Hell, the guy even went an entire season without hitting into a double play.


I don't think 3,000 hits makes him "automatic". The only reason he got to 3,000 hits is because he played for a mediocre (in 2006, and terrible (in 2007) baseball team who didn't need to replace a guy who was among the worse hitting Second Basemen in his final 2 seasons (.249BA, .296OBP, .669 OPS).

It makes no sense to say a guy is automatic because he played terrible baseball in the final part of his career. I do agree that if he played in NY that he'd be a bigger name, and a HOFer. But the hanging on at the end of a career to make a arbitrary barrier seems pointless. I don't think Harold Baines was a Hall Of Famer, and I don't think if stayed healthy for an extra season would have made him a hall of famer, even if he got the 150 hits needed to make 3,000.
 
2014-01-09 04:30:23 PM  

bhcompy: zarberg: puffy999: I mean using the Clemens/Bonds reasoning, I guess. But steroids do help you hit the ball, as well as extend careers by, sometimes, five years or more.

That argument is one that actually works in one of the suspected juicer's favors ... if Piazza was juicing, why did he suffer the same early-to-mid-30's breakdown that most players suffer? He was a regular on the DL for the last half of his career, shouldn't steroids have helped that?

Piazza is pretty low on the list of suspected juicers, though.  He's as likely a juicer as Griffey


I disagree. Piazza had terrible bacne, "test bloat" face and went from being drafted as a gift to his grandpa to being all time greatest hitting catcher ever. It isn't that hard to get drafted in the MLB draft, so he had to be not very good when he was drafted.
 
2014-01-09 04:31:13 PM  
And for what it's worth, Randy Johnson had better be somewhere above Glavine's voting percentage next year.
 
2014-01-09 05:24:58 PM  

machoprogrammer: bhcompy: zarberg: puffy999: I mean using the Clemens/Bonds reasoning, I guess. But steroids do help you hit the ball, as well as extend careers by, sometimes, five years or more.

That argument is one that actually works in one of the suspected juicer's favors ... if Piazza was juicing, why did he suffer the same early-to-mid-30's breakdown that most players suffer? He was a regular on the DL for the last half of his career, shouldn't steroids have helped that?

Piazza is pretty low on the list of suspected juicers, though.  He's as likely a juicer as Griffey

I disagree. Piazza had terrible bacne, "test bloat" face and went from being drafted as a gift to his grandpa to being all time greatest hitting catcher ever. It isn't that hard to get drafted in the MLB draft, so he had to be not very good when he was drafted.


As an Italian, I can tell you terrible bacne continues into adulthood and beyond regardless of steroid use
 
2014-01-09 06:43:35 PM  
Is subby also crying about Gene Tenace not being in the Hall of Fame?
 
2014-01-09 07:38:41 PM  
Kirk Gibson would like to have a word with you subby.
 
2014-01-09 08:10:45 PM  

The Banana Thug: What?  McGwire was an All-Star 8 or 9 times (not to mention Rooke of the Year) before he started to juice.  He helped the A's to 3 World Series appearances in 3 years.  Are you sure about that?

Not saying he deserves to be HoF now, but he had a pretty good chance before he went boneheaded with juicing.


You wrote this entire statement with the mindset that he didn't start juicing until halfway through the 1997 season or something.

He admitted to using steroids starting as early as 89/90 and it wouldn't shock me if you just go ahead and assume his entire career as being aided by steroids.
 
2014-01-09 09:16:43 PM  

bhcompy: zarberg: puffy999: I mean using the Clemens/Bonds reasoning, I guess. But steroids do help you hit the ball, as well as extend careers by, sometimes, five years or more.

That argument is one that actually works in one of the suspected juicer's favors ... if Piazza was juicing, why did he suffer the same early-to-mid-30's breakdown that most players suffer? He was a regular on the DL for the last half of his career, shouldn't steroids have helped that?

Piazza is pretty low on the list of suspected juicers, though.  He's as likely a juicer as Griffey


Not even close, piazza most likely used a little but I'm not sure he was bonds/McGwire/Sosa level of juicing.

But Griffey didn't use at all, he was the same composition most of his career and steroids are used for injury recovery like bonds/Clemens used them for.
 
2014-01-09 09:18:32 PM  

bulldg4life: The Banana Thug: What?  McGwire was an All-Star 8 or 9 times (not to mention Rooke of the Year) before he started to juice.  He helped the A's to 3 World Series appearances in 3 years.  Are you sure about that?

Not saying he deserves to be HoF now, but he had a pretty good chance before he went boneheaded with juicing.

You wrote this entire statement with the mindset that he didn't start juicing until halfway through the 1997 season or something.

He admitted to using steroids starting as early as 89/90 and it wouldn't shock me if you just go ahead and assume his entire career as being aided by steroids.


Yeah him and canseco were using in the early 90s at the latest.
 
2014-01-09 09:35:31 PM  

steamingpile: But Griffey didn't use at all, he was the same composition most of his career and steroids are used for injury recovery like bonds/Clemens used them for.


Yeah, and Griffey was never injured so that settles that.
 
2014-01-09 11:25:09 PM  

FuManchu7: Luis Gonzales?  No.

If you are a Diamondback fan, don't worry.  I think Randy Johnson is up next year and will probably be a first ballot HOF'er.


He's stated if he's voted in he would go in as a Mariner.  So, yeah...
 
2014-01-10 12:17:52 AM  

H31N0US: Donnchadha: Being clutch in one at-bat does not a Hall of Famer make

Yep. And if that changes, I nominate Aaron Boone for the HoF. At least he hit it out, not a dinker over the head of an infielder who was playing too tight.


And I guess that puts David Freese in too
 
2014-01-10 01:39:23 AM  
If Frank Thomas is a Hall of Famer (which he is, and deserves to be) then Jeff Bagwell is a Hall of Famer, too, and then some.  And this doesn't have anything to do with the two of them being born on the same day and winning an MVP in the same year.

Big Hurt:  301/521/1704 in 2322 games, 974 OPS, 156 OPS+

Bagpipes: 297/449/1529 in 2150 games, 948 OPS, 149 OPS+, and was also forced to wear a fielder's glove (and occasionally knew which hand to place it on)

Frank Thomas and Jeff Bagwell are the exact same player, with the only exception being that Thomas had a few extra end-of-career years that were denied to Bagwell because of Bag's arthritis.


Craig Biggio will make it (74.8% this year) and deserves to.  But the fact that Bagwell *lost* voting percentage this year (59.6% in 2013 vs. 54.3% this year) is a complete joke.

/yes, I am an Astros fan
 
2014-01-10 01:44:11 AM  

JusticeandIndependence: Can we talk about HOF process on the whole or just about Luis Gonzalez?

Luis was a good player but not HOF.

Glavine, Maddux, and Thomas should be in.  BUT I think the writers should either let everyone in from the steroid era or none.

Based on stats.
Bonds should be in
Sosa should be in
Clemens should be in
McGwire should be in
Piazza should be in
Palmeiro should be in
Biggio and Bagwell are debateable

Stupid writers thinking they are doing something honorable now when they promoted these guys while they were playing.


I think what's happened is, the stronger your connection, the more it costs you. I think there are generally three tiers:

*Guys with whisper campaigns but little more (Piazza, Bagwell) get damaged to the point where they'll have to wait a bit, but they should still get in before all that long.
*Guys with strong connections but no actual failed test (Bonds, Clemens, McGwire) get heavily damaged and will likely be waiting into old age, but the door might- MIGHT- not be completely shut.
*Guys with an actual failed test (Palmeiro, Manny Ramirez in a couple years)? Forget it. You want in the Hall, buy a ticket.
 
2014-01-10 01:48:12 AM  

Fade2black: FuManchu7: Luis Gonzales?  No.

If you are a Diamondback fan, don't worry.  I think Randy Johnson is up next year and will probably be a first ballot HOF'er.

He's stated if he's voted in he would go in as a Mariner.  So, yeah...


I believe it's still the case that players don't get to choose which team they are affiliated with on their HOF plaque.  So, while Johnson might very well be depicted as a Mariner, there's also a non-zero chance that his plaque will show him with the hat of the team for which he won a World Series.
 
2014-01-10 08:43:31 AM  

JSam21: And I guess that puts David Freese in too


Nelson Cruz should be the one to induct Freese.
 
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