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(CNN)   Big dumb jocks are really . . . big dumb jocks   (cnn.com) divider line 70
    More: Fail, collegiate sports, CNN, test scores, achievement gap, UNC-Greensboro, University of Louisville  
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2511 clicks; posted to Sports » on 07 Jan 2014 at 8:00 PM (32 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-07 07:39:28 PM
None of the "A"s in NCAA stands for Academics
 
2014-01-07 08:00:25 PM
"College textbooks are written at the ninth-grade level, so we are putting these elite athletes into classes where they can't understand the textbooks. Imagine yourself sitting in a class where nothing makes sense."

Can't.
I'm not an "athlete"
 
2014-01-07 08:04:56 PM
As a graduate student at UNC-Greensboro, Willingham researched the reading levels of 183 UNC-Chapel Hill athletes who played football or basketball from 2004 to 2012. She found that 60% read between fourth- and eighth-grade levels. Between 8% and 10% read below a third-grade level.

"So what are the classes they are going to take to get a degree here? You cannot come here with a third-, fourth- or fifth-grade education and get a degree here," she told CNN.


How farking naïve is this chick?
 
2014-01-07 08:08:55 PM
This is apparently a new thing.

Every five or six years.
 
2014-01-07 08:11:14 PM
Shocking stuff, some people are dumb. The difference with athletes is you hear about it more because they're physically gifted so they actually accomplish something.

Unlike say, the rest of the dumb population, which is as physically uncoordinated as they are stupid.
 
2014-01-07 08:13:09 PM
Because...FOOTBALL!
 
2014-01-07 08:21:03 PM
The good news is, once you get to the pro level, there's really very few functional retards left. The majority of NFL players, for instance, are an awful lot smarter than you'd probably believe.


Just...do yourself a favor and don't talk to the RBs or DBs. They really bring down the average for the whole game.

The saddest part is that you have to come face to face with the idea that, in the article, this lady was in her office and a UNC basketball player walked in unable to read or write.

Think about how much epic fail that is.

That's not one teacher.

That's not one school. Or one school board.

*The kid was already a UNC STUDENT AND A BASKETBALL TEAM MEMBER*

And this is NOT an anomaly!


He got passed up the chain by at least three, maybe as many as 6 elementary school teachers. Plus all the counselors and administrators, his family, everyone that worked at every store he bought something from.

Another one or two schools (minimum) for grades 6-12. How many teachers is that? 6 years, 8 different teachers a day, plus the one semester courses and ALL the coaches, counselors, and support staff.

Graduated! A DIPLOMA!

"Passing" entrance exams and ACTs/SATs/etc. Getting TO UNC. Living there, attending classes with HOW many professors, TAs, support staff, coaches, yada yada yada.

You're talking a couple HUNDRED of our 'best and brightest' teachers either being pants-on-head unable to do the most basic functions of their jobs (and still doing them!), or face the fact that they passed him up the chain KNOWING HE COULD NOT READ OR WRITE for someone else to deal with because reasons.

I'm still amazed I went to public schools and can form a logical thought and farking count. This country died inside a long time ago, and we're living on the cooling corpse.
 
2014-01-07 08:29:17 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: As a graduate student at UNC-Greensboro, Willingham researched the reading levels of 183 UNC-Chapel Hill athletes who played football or basketball from 2004 to 2012. She found that 60% read between fourth- and eighth-grade levels. Between 8% and 10% read below a third-grade level.

"So what are the classes they are going to take to get a degree here? You cannot come here with a third-, fourth- or fifth-grade education and get a degree here," she told CNN.

How farking naïve is this chick?


It's very, very obvious that she's suffering from acute Tarheel envy.
 
2014-01-07 08:29:36 PM

xaks: You're talking a couple HUNDRED of our 'best and brightest' teachers either being pants-on-head unable to do the most basic functions of their jobs (and still doing them!), or face the fact that they passed him up the chain KNOWING HE COULD NOT READ OR WRITE for someone else to deal with because reasons you're not allowed to flunk but a certain percentage of students, and they better be racially representative.


FTFY
 
2014-01-07 08:32:15 PM
Wow totally shocking and totally racist!
 
2014-01-07 08:33:06 PM
My sister went to college and had a football player in her class This f*cker was so stupid they had to put an "L" and an "R" on his gloves so he knew which way to go on a play. Yep, full ride scholarship for this "poor inner city child" or otherwise known as the Black athlete, while my sis broke her ass working full time and taking a full class schedule. They passed him through every class. He has a college diploma but couldn't find his ass without a map and a flashlight.

/ Sis graduated at the top of her class in business and economics and has a great job with good benefits and lots of $$$ :~)

/football boy is serving 5-10 for being stupid
 
2014-01-07 08:33:23 PM
The University of Louisville has about a $500 million budget, meaning that the bball profits account for about 5% of total revenue, and is almost certainly one of the highest percentage of bball profits to revenues in the NCAA.  UNC's total revenues are about $3 billion, meaning that its bball profits are about 0.5% of total revenues.

These institutions are selling their integrity and their souls to call these illiterates their "students."  But, hey - as long as Pitino earns his $5-6 mill/yr, it's totally worth it.
 
2014-01-07 08:34:57 PM
Anyone who was a TA has met dumb athletes. And dumb non-athletes.

After one of my friends flunked one of our school's basketball stars, the team's academic advisor told the star he could find him a friendlier teacher for the next semester. The star chose my friend because he was the first teacher who had challenged the star to learn.

Lots of athletes are given poisonous advantages, and some resent the Hell out of it.
 
2014-01-07 08:35:17 PM

xaks: You're talking a couple HUNDRED of our 'best and brightest' teachers either being pants-on-head unable to do the most basic functions of their jobs (and still doing them!), or face the fact that they passed him up the chain KNOWING HE COULD NOT READ OR WRITE for someone else to deal with because reasons.


Those reasons being that he won each and every one of those schools championships, made each and every coach he played for look like Pat Riley, filled each and every school's gymnasium with paying customers and filled each and every school trophy case with hardware, photographs and memories, instilled pride in the faculties of such schools who've probably never had a superstar before, and they liked the kid because he was very nice boy and was the centerpiece of every pep rally.

Now, I'm not saying those are good reasons. I'm just trying to put things in perspective. When a guy does that much for you and your organization, attracts local business and sponsors and makes the school money, and galvanizes the student body into raw school spirit, it's hard to hold him back or penalize him because of everything he's done. You want him to succeed so you gently push him to the next guy in life, and so long as he can play good basketball, he can skate through the system.

I know it's kind of unfair, but hey: When 10,000 people show up to watch a kid do a math problem, he can command similar favors.
 
2014-01-07 08:35:24 PM
A friend of mine as a TA was pressured by the AD and his prof to pass a failing QB.  I would say that their academic integrity was violated, but it was Georgia.
 
2014-01-07 08:42:50 PM

Ishkur: xaks: You're talking a couple HUNDRED of our 'best and brightest' teachers either being pants-on-head unable to do the most basic functions of their jobs (and still doing them!), or face the fact that they passed him up the chain KNOWING HE COULD NOT READ OR WRITE for someone else to deal with because reasons.

Those reasons being that he won each and every one of those schools championships, made each and every coach he played for look like Pat Riley, filled each and every school's gymnasium with paying customers and filled each and every school trophy case with hardware, photographs and memories, instilled pride in the faculties of such schools who've probably never had a superstar before, and they liked the kid because he was very nice boy and was the centerpiece of every pep rally.

Now, I'm not saying those are good reasons. I'm just trying to put things in perspective. When a guy does that much for you and your organization, attracts local business and sponsors and makes the school money, and galvanizes the student body into raw school spirit, it's hard to hold him back or penalize him because of everything he's done. You want him to succeed so you gently push him to the next guy in life, and so long as he can play good basketball, he can skate through the system.

I know it's kind of unfair, but hey: When 10,000 people show up to watch a kid do a math problem, he can command similar favors.


Its VERY unfair, yes, I know. I'm not trying to go all "Well I am just SHOCKED" or anything.

But my point here is, don't penalize the kid...it isn't his fault he got lots of physical gifts and not many mental. But FFS, how many of them get through the system every year to fund the schools, but aren't good enough to 'go pro'? 99.9999999999999999999999999% Ish?

What do you think the 'life prospects' are of those people after the schools have shiat them out, dumb as a post with no ability and no skills, and no real way to even learn that point?

Why do you think so many of them are in jail?

Its a self created problem.
 
2014-01-07 08:42:54 PM
When I was at PC in the 90s I had a US History class with a priest, and God Shammgod was in the class.  Well, technically.  He showed up probably three times (though in his defense, it was basketball semester), and he literally had to withdraw from the course because he had pissed off the priest that much.

Even if the priest was a bit of a prick, seriously - how hard do you have to try as a basketball player to piss off a priest at Providence College THAT much??
 
2014-01-07 08:44:46 PM

Rapmaster2000: A friend of mine as a TA was pressured by the AD and his prof to pass a failing QB.  I would say that their academic integrity was violated, but it was Georgia.


That's funny. I have a friend who was a TA at Georgia and has the same story. Either we have the same friend or this kind of thing is fairly common there.
 
2014-01-07 08:46:49 PM
Patrick Ewing majored in wood working (de facto, if not de jure) at Georgetown.  I saw a couple of his efforts.  Junior high shop class C grade quality.
 
2014-01-07 08:47:06 PM

FriarReb98: When I was at PC in the 90s I had a US History class with a priest, and God Shammgod was in the class.  Well, technically.  He showed up probably three times (though in his defense, it was basketball semester), and he literally had to withdraw from the course because he had pissed off the priest that much.

Even if the priest was a bit of a prick, seriously - how hard do you have to try as a basketball player to piss off a priest at Providence College THAT much??


Not hard at all.  As a matter of fact, it sounds like it was the absence of effort that did it.
 
2014-01-07 08:47:53 PM

Ishkur: I know it's kind of unfair, but hey: When 10,000 people show up to watch a kid do a math problem, he can command similar favors.


How many people will be buying his software?
 
2014-01-07 08:47:57 PM

FriarReb98: When I was at PC in the 90s I had a US History class with a priest, and God Shammgod was in the class.  Well, technically.  He showed up probably three times (though in his defense, it was basketball semester), and he literally had to withdraw from the course because he had pissed off the priest that much.

Even if the priest was a bit of a prick, seriously - how hard do you have to try as a basketball player to piss off a priest at Providence College THAT much??


Did the priest's anger at God lead to some deep theological soul-searching?
 
2014-01-07 08:51:42 PM

yakmans_dad: Anyone who was a TA has met dumb athletes. And dumb non-athletes.

After one of my friends flunked one of our school's basketball stars, the team's academic advisor told the star he could find him a friendlier teacher for the next semester. The star chose my friend because he was the first teacher who had challenged the star to learn.

Lots of athletes are given poisonous advantages, and some resent the Hell out of it.



1) I took a freshman class in college that was ~80% athletes.  Some of the athletes from non-revenue sports were cool, but the football players pretty much lived up to their stereotype.  This was at the University of Illinois too (our football team went 2-9 that year and this was a good season because we broke an 18-game losing streak).  It wasn't all of the football players, but a good number of them.
2) I TA'ed a class later in college.  Luckily it was an engineering class, so no athletes, but I caught two students cheating and was strongly discouraged from doing anything about it because of the paperwork and professor's time involved-- this stuff all cuts away from doing ground-breaking research which is what pays their bills. The moral of the story: busting a cheater is a pain even when they don't run a 4.6-second 40-yard dash.
3) I've met a couple of people who've played NCAA sports and were STRONGLY discouraged from being in certain majors, because their schoolwork would be seen as a distraction from building the coach's sportsball resume-- so even when athletes WANT TO LEARN, they are forced to choose between learning and getting playing time.

I'm a huge sports fan, but my opinion of the NCAA is that we should nuke the thing and go with the Ivy League model-- no athletic scholarships for anybody.  I know that people like to draw a parallel between throwing a football and playing a tuba, but show me a marching band director who has enough clout to force his employer to compromise its principles on its core mission, and then we can talk further.
 
2014-01-07 08:53:57 PM
This is neither a surprise, nor is it a problem.  But the anecdotes are fun to read and hear.
 
2014-01-07 09:04:50 PM

Nana's Vibrator: This is neither a surprise, nor is it a problem


Seeing people type this really, really bums me out. Nothing on you, Nana, but it is why I usually have to struggle to not think about it, cause it pisses me off so much.

It *is* a problem, and a big one. I'm going to have to respectfully disafarkingree with you.

Ma'am

*tips hat
 
2014-01-07 09:08:43 PM

xaks: But my point here is, don't penalize the kid...it isn't his fault he got lots of physical gifts and not many mental. But FFS, how many of them get through the system every year to fund the schools, but aren't good enough to 'go pro'? 99.9999999999999999999999999% Ish?


Well, see, here we get to the parasitical nature of it all. The school isn't out for his interests, it's out for its own interests. And if it can make money off this kid for a few years while he sinks hoops for the Varsity team, good enough for them. They don't care what happens to him after he gets out of school or if he ever makes pro (maybe a badge of pride if he does, but nothing truly residual). They just care about him while he's eligible to play highschool basketball.

I don't know how the college recruitment process works, but I must believe that UNC or whatever top NCAA school must pay the kid's high school a princely sum to get a look at him or invite him to a summer camp combine or whatever (and if multiple schools want him, sell to the highest bidder). Now, if you're an educator, would you want to ruin that deal by telling the recruiters "the kid can't read and he's dumber than a box of dirt", or would you rather keep your mouth shut, hide the transcripts and use the dough for new desks and textbooks next year? And those things help the other kids, so in effect, passing this prospect along is good for the school and good for his classmates.

It's not right. But it's what's happening.
 
2014-01-07 09:12:32 PM

2wolves: How many people will be buying his software?


None -- he had no friends or social skills and spent all his time on 4chan and got caught by the FBI trying to hack a corporate website. He's doing 15 in Club Fed.
 
2014-01-07 09:21:35 PM
I had to proof read a paper by our star point guard. He wrote it by hand...in pencil. 5 pages worth.

It took everything in me not to laugh while trying to figure it out right in front of him.

/college athlete
 
2014-01-07 09:22:10 PM

xaks: The good news is, once you get to the pro level, there's really very few functional retards left. The majority of NFL players, for instance, are an awful lot smarter than you'd probably believe.


There is a significant body of research indicating that athletes at the high school level perform better academically than non-athletes.  This research does not quite translate to the college level, but then again comparisons are more difficult (since almost everyone goes to high school, but not necessarily college).

Setting aside research, unless we believe the "mind" and body are somehow totally separate things, of course great athletes are smarter than the average bear.  Sure, they won't be book smart if they don't apply themselves (or if they get free passes) but the potential should be there.
 
2014-01-07 09:22:56 PM
balki1867 - My experience was entirely different, The athletes, most football, some basketball, a few in non revenue sports, that i met were all fine people, save one problem child (fullback). I met these folks in class, at work (Follett's) at IMPE and primarily on the IM softball fields. I can't say anyone wowed me with their keen intellect, but then I wasn't looking to be wowed. All were good people, save the one angry dude. When his very petite girlfriend went off on him after a softball game (not against my team) for being a jerk it was terrifically amusing. But one of my friends had a parent who worked with players for the English dept, so I was aware that some were not up to the challenge, though my impression was they didn't stick around long. Of course, this was back in the days when razors had only one blade, bell bottoms were hip, and Ruby Gulch had the best entertainment. I still have the onion I wore on my belt.

oopps. long reminiscence is long.
 
2014-01-07 09:24:28 PM

xaks: Nana's Vibrator: This is neither a surprise, nor is it a problem

Seeing people type this really, really bums me out. Nothing on you, Nana, but it is why I usually have to struggle to not think about it, cause it pisses me off so much.

It *is* a problem, and a big one. I'm going to have to respectfully disafarkingree with you.

Ma'am

*tips hat


I'll look past the gender confusion, it's understandable.  But whether any of these kids was ever going to read, with or without athletic talent, I think is your point of contention; and yes, that someone can get out of 4th grade - before anyone knows or cares if their athletic ability is profitable - is a colossal and perpetual failure.  I'd agree with that.

But the fact that these guys can play a sport to the best of their ability at the highest level their ability will allow...while at the same time the university can profit from it ...the way I see it, it works out just fine.  Integrity is not institutional, it's an individual sport.
 
2014-01-07 09:32:27 PM

AliceBToklasLives: There is a significant body of research indicating that athletes at the high school level perform better academically than non-athletes.



If you include the ladies and the male golfers and tennis players and soccer players and all that jazz.  Had plenty of those in my honor classes in high school, but no male basketball players or baseball players and only the white quarterback for football.  The data in TFA only did basketball and football.
 
2014-01-07 09:34:06 PM
3guys1movie.com
 
2014-01-07 09:53:24 PM
One of my orthopedic surgeons played as an offense lineman in the superbowl.
 
2014-01-07 09:55:31 PM

Ishkur: xaks: But my point here is, don't penalize the kid...it isn't his fault he got lots of physical gifts and not many mental. But FFS, how many of them get through the system every year to fund the schools, but aren't good enough to 'go pro'? 99.9999999999999999999999999% Ish?

Well, see, here we get to the parasitical nature of it all. The school isn't out for his interests, it's out for its own interests. And if it can make money off this kid for a few years while he sinks hoops for the Varsity team, good enough for them. They don't care what happens to him after he gets out of school or if he ever makes pro (maybe a badge of pride if he does, but nothing truly residual). They just care about him while he's eligible to play highschool basketball.

I don't know how the college recruitment process works, but I must believe that UNC or whatever top NCAA school must pay the kid's high school a princely sum to get a look at him or invite him to a summer camp combine or whatever (and if multiple schools want him, sell to the highest bidder). Now, if you're an educator, would you want to ruin that deal by telling the recruiters "the kid can't read and he's dumber than a box of dirt", or would you rather keep your mouth shut, hide the transcripts and use the dough for new desks and textbooks next year? And those things help the other kids, so in effect, passing this prospect along is good for the school and good for his classmates.

It's not right. But it's what's happening.


That's not actually how it works. The school gets nothing more from the scouts than (sometimes) the price of a ticket.
 
2014-01-07 10:00:15 PM
The school system in general in the US is a mess, it's not just athletes.  A lot of kids are socially promoted or are able to get through school and graduate without learning what would be considered basic concepts by a lot of people.  With some of these kids as long as they continue to show up to school and don't cause problems their teachers pass them because it's good for the school to have kids move on and the kids, teachers, administration and taxpayers don't like the idea of 21 year old high school juniors taking remedial English for the 4th time.
The other thing to keep in mind with this is that with people who have either a severe learning disability or a subject where they just can not grasp it is that those people find ways to get through life without people knowing.  Obviously everyone on this site can read but there are a lot of people out there who are functionally illiterate and they find ways to get by; either they'll "read it later," find a way to get someone to do their work for them (this helps if they are good at sports or good looking) or they look for a way to survive without needing to read.  This is an extreme example but it's possible for people to get through school and a good portion of their life without anyone around them realizing that the person is illiterate; it's not like they wear a T-shirt saying "If you can read this please tell me what it says."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Demers
 
2014-01-07 10:01:41 PM
Could we just lay the "student athlete" fiction to rest and pay them for the services they offer?
 
2014-01-07 10:03:39 PM

Nana's Vibrator: But the fact that these guys can play a sport to the best of their ability at the highest level their ability will allow...while at the same time the university can profit from it ...the way I see it, it works out just fine.  Integrity is not institutional, it's an individual sport.


That is the entirety of the point, sir.

The integrity of the institution is supposed to be that of learning. Is has become one of profits and fame.

Therein lies the problem. Return the purpose of the institution to learning and preparing people to be productive, successful and worthwhile to civilization and you remove most of the problems. Of course, Nick Saban can't make ...what, 8 million a year?...and earn the school how many million a year in profits....if that were to happen.

Not picking on that school, he's just the douchewad that popped into my head first.

Imagine ... money farks things up when people get used to having it and making it! RepublicanFirst world  problems.
 
2014-01-07 10:04:28 PM
www.washingtonmonthly.com
 
2014-01-07 10:21:33 PM

MNMarkPW: That's not actually how it works. The school gets nothing more from the scouts than (sometimes) the price of a ticket.


Oh. Well. I have no idea what the school could get out of it then, other than pride.
 
2014-01-07 10:29:39 PM

MNMarkPW: That's not actually how it works. The school gets nothing more from the scouts than (sometimes) the price of a ticket.


Right.  And the athletes get nothing but a scholarship to University, either.
 
2014-01-07 10:31:26 PM

Ishkur: MNMarkPW: That's not actually how it works. The school gets nothing more from the scouts than (sometimes) the price of a ticket.

Oh. Well. I have no idea what the school could get out of it then, other than pride.


Booster money and alumni money.

PROTIP: Harvard's 'endowment fund' is 30 billion dollars. Your grads donate, and they donate more if they have involved or fun memories with a good sports program.

No, really. Billion with a B.

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list-college /a rticles/2013/10/01/universities-with-the-largest-financial-endowments- colleges-with-the-largest-financial-endowments

Take a look at that list and think about how many have BIG money NCAA sport programs

It isn't a co-inky-dink
 
2014-01-07 10:37:54 PM

Ishkur: Well, see, here we get to the parasitical nature of it all. The school isn't out for his interests, it's out for its own interests. And if it can make money off this kid for a few years while he sinks hoops for the Varsity team, good enough for them. They don't care what happens to him after he gets out of school or if he ever makes pro (maybe a badge of pride if he does, but nothing truly residual). They just care about him while he's eligible to play highschool basketball.


Same with every organization ever. And most people, to be honest.
 
2014-01-07 10:38:17 PM

dookdookdook: [www.washingtonmonthly.com image 430x249]


In an odd way he's right, NCAA is just a farm league, why disguise it as college when everyone knows that's not what it is. Just give them a salary and end this "scholarship" BS.
 
2014-01-07 10:41:00 PM

Reverend J: NCAA is just a farm league


Not for 99.9% of student-athletes. You're aware that the NCAA governs dozens of sports across several divisions, right?
 
2014-01-07 10:45:30 PM

balki1867: .
3) I've met a couple of people who've played NCAA sports and were STRONGLY discouraged from being in certain majors, because their schoolwork would be seen as a distraction from building the coach's sportsball resume-- so even when athletes WANT TO LEARN, they are forced to choose between learning and getting playing time.



Saw that once when I was an RA in the dorms at U-Maryland. One of my football players was an aerospace major his first semester. By Christmas he'd been switched to "general studies" or some such and didn't seem that happy with it himself.

The academic cover-ups and over-lookings starts back in high school, so I wonder if they could make some progress at that level (since it's not AS big a $$ business outside of say Texas football).  I was a writing tutor at my Catholic HS and got assigned some athletes.  One basketball player was asked to do the easiest assignment ever - write some questions that you would ask senior citizens on a visit to a home. Question 1: "what city and state where you was born at".  Explaining what was wrong with that sentence took nearly an hour and I'm still pretty sure he didn't get it by the end... yet we supposedly had admissions testing and grading standards to get in there.
 
2014-01-07 10:54:18 PM
Soon, she'd meet a student-athlete who couldn't read multisyllabic words. She had to teach him to sound out Wis-con-sin, as kids do in elementary school.


Wi skahn sin fool. She will make that boy look dumber than he already is
 
2014-01-07 11:10:28 PM

EnormousGreenRageMonster: Saw that once when I was an RA in the dorms at U-Maryland. One of my football players was an aerospace major his first semester. By Christmas he'd been switched to "general studies" or some such and didn't seem that happy with it himself.


The saddest part is that I know one person who had this experience on a CLUB hockey team.  The team was pretty good, but that alone should tell you that none of these kids had the NHL (or even minor league hockey) in their future.  Still the coach thought he had some potential to coach at the NCAA level and he didn't want some stupid college kid messing it up with his learning and what-not.

My friend (very smartly) quit the team and double-majored in CS and Econ.
 
2014-01-07 11:53:40 PM

bronyaur1: The University of Louisville has about a $500 million budget, meaning that the bball profits account for about 5% of total revenue, and is almost certainly one of the highest percentage of bball profits to revenues in the NCAA.  UNC's total revenues are about $3 billion, meaning that its bball profits are about 0.5% of total revenues.

These institutions are selling their integrity and their souls to call these illiterates their "students."  But, hey - as long as Pitino earns his $5-6 mill/yr, it's totally worth it.


Even at bball schools like ul and Kentucky they get more returns from the football program than bball. And when schools have football programs they see alumni donations go up and when programs were dropped donations dropped off a cliff so they felt pressured to not only have a team but a competitive one.
 
2014-01-07 11:56:19 PM
You can tell who's dumb by the shiat they write on Twitter.
/Yes that includes the Auburn mom
 
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