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(Talking Points Memo)   Meet the original Edward Snowdens   (talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 73
    More: Interesting, FBI  
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5472 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Jan 2014 at 10:30 AM (33 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-07 08:51:11 AM
One big difference:  There was a statute of limitations for burglary, and they weren't "read in", so they are free and clear of any possible legal action against them.

Snowden, on the other hand, was "read in" and signed a document that basically nullifies any defense he might have, so barring a presidential pardon, he's going to have to worry about prosecution for the rest of his life.

Good for the Media, PA burglars, btw.  I heartily approve of their action.
 
2014-01-07 10:32:29 AM
You mean these two?

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-01-07 10:36:32 AM
This was a story on NPR today too, interesting stuff
 
2014-01-07 10:49:26 AM
White people are the funniest bunch, always have been.
 
2014-01-07 10:50:02 AM
Another big difference, these guys weren't self publicity whore dicks
 
2014-01-07 10:57:51 AM

baka-san: Another big difference, these guys weren't self publicity whore dicks


yeah snowden is a doodoohead
 
2014-01-07 10:58:42 AM

dittybopper: One big difference:  There was a statute of limitations for burglary, and they weren't "read in", so they are free and clear of any possible legal action against them.

Snowden, on the other hand, was "read in" and signed a document that basically nullifies any defense he might have, so barring a presidential pardon, he's going to have to worry about prosecution for the rest of his life.

Good for the Media, PA burglars, btw.  I heartily approve of their action.


Clarify something. Would you approve a pardon for Snowden? (I would.)
 
2014-01-07 10:59:38 AM

baka-san: Another big difference, these guys weren't self publicity whore dicks


How is that particular ad hominem germane to anything?
 
2014-01-07 11:04:29 AM

yakmans_dad: baka-san: Another big difference, these guys weren't self publicity whore dicks

How is that particular ad hominem germane to anything?


they can't attack the work he did to expose the illegal NSA spying so they have to call him names and complain that he didn't hang around the US to be possibly tortured.
 
2014-01-07 11:05:30 AM

yakmans_dad: dittybopper: One big difference:  There was a statute of limitations for burglary, and they weren't "read in", so they are free and clear of any possible legal action against them.

Snowden, on the other hand, was "read in" and signed a document that basically nullifies any defense he might have, so barring a presidential pardon, he's going to have to worry about prosecution for the rest of his life.

Good for the Media, PA burglars, btw.  I heartily approve of their action.

Clarify something. Would you approve a pardon for Snowden? (I would.)


Yes.  In fact, yes I would.

That's not to say that what he's done is 100% OK with me:  I'd have preferred that he hadn't handed over documents related to foreign signals intelligence, which is what the NSA should be focusing on almost exclusively, with very rare exceptions.

On balance though, he's done more good for the American people than harm.
 
2014-01-07 11:06:31 AM

yakmans_dad: baka-san: Another big difference, these guys weren't self publicity whore dicks

How is that particular ad hominem germane to anything?


He has dick motherfarker Tourrettes.
 
2014-01-07 11:19:12 AM
Shouldn't that be Edwards Snowden? Edwarden Snowden? Edwardi Snowdæ?
 
2014-01-07 11:19:40 AM

give me doughnuts: You mean these two?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 400x324]


seriously?
 
2014-01-07 11:19:57 AM
I'd be curious as to the %'s of the American public that think Snowden should be pardoned.  I could see it being around 50%, but I could also see it being around 10.

//Part of the 10.
 
2014-01-07 11:21:55 AM
Where are the Snowdens of yesteryear?

/DNRTFA.
 
2014-01-07 11:26:06 AM

turboke: Shouldn't that be Edwards Snowden? Edwarden Snowden? Edwardi Snowdæ?


Edwearde Snowden?

Apparently the name Edward means "watchman of wealth". Which is wonderfully ironic.

(Help him! Help him!)
 
2014-01-07 11:34:27 AM

sno man: give me doughnuts: You mean these two?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 400x324]

seriously?


Turned over lots of confidential stuff to a Communist country.
They didn't quite make it to Russia, but he did.
 
2014-01-07 11:39:04 AM

give me doughnuts: sno man: give me doughnuts: You mean these two?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 400x324]

seriously?

Turned over lots of confidential stuff to a Communist country.
They didn't quite make it to Russia, but he did.


Yea it's a shame no-one but the commies got all the info from Snowden.
 
2014-01-07 11:40:51 AM

give me doughnuts: sno man: give me doughnuts: You mean these two?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 400x324]

seriously?

Turned over lots of confidential stuff to a Communist country.
They didn't quite make it to Russia, but he did.


Given our history of Anything Goes (Hiroshima, Nagasaki) and the frenzied anti-Communism we sport from time to time, I think the odds that we'd have used the nukes on the Soviet Union were pretty good.  Do you see the Rosenbergs as at the least comprehensible in their motives and probably heroes?
 
2014-01-07 11:41:35 AM

sno man: give me doughnuts: sno man: give me doughnuts: You mean these two?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 400x324]

seriously?

Turned over lots of confidential stuff to a Communist country.
They didn't quite make it to Russia, but he did.

Yea it's a shame no-one but the commies got all the info from Snowden.


Yeah, I didn't hear anything about those NSA programs, or Hell, even Edward Snowden, until just now.
 
2014-01-07 11:53:58 AM

yakmans_dad: Given our history of Anything Goes (Hiroshima, Nagasaki) and the frenzied anti-Communism we sport from time to time, I think the odds that we'd have used the nukes on the Soviet Union were pretty good.  Do you see the Rosenbergs as at the least comprehensible in their motives and probably heroes?


Well, *NO*.

We bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki in retaliation for a direct military attack.  So it wasn't "Anything Goes".  We were in an actual, all-out, knock-down-drag-out war with Japan.

I think the odds that we'd have used nukes on the Soviet Union to be pretty much non-existent outside of some major provocation by Stalin.  Not that he could really do much to us at the time, but prior to the U-2 flights and later Corona satellites, we didn't know that.  I was all conjecture, supported by tourist sightings and debriefing of defectors.

We can look back and confidently predict that the Soviet Union really didn't have a response to US power up until the mid-to-late 1960's, but it took us nearly 2 decades to suss that out, and once we did, they had become a serious threat.
 
2014-01-07 11:54:15 AM
I had never heard of this until today.  I was 4 when this occurred and living less than 5 miles from Media.

Interesting to say the least.
 
2014-01-07 11:54:59 AM

sno man: give me doughnuts: sno man: give me doughnuts: You mean these two?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 400x324]

seriously?

Turned over lots of confidential stuff to a Communist country.
They didn't quite make it to Russia, but he did.

Yea it's a shame no-one but the commies got all the info from Snowden.



Relevance?

If he only wanted to be a whistle-blower, he should have just stayed in the US. Fleeing to another country just looks like an attempt at espionage for profit.
 
2014-01-07 12:02:22 PM

dittybopper: We bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki in retaliation for a direct military attack.


Are you talking about Pearl Harbor?  If you are, then no, you're wrong.  Not taking into account that it was nearly four years later, even if the US had the capability to do it in January of 1942 they wouldn't have.  The A-bombs were dropped as it was seen as the only way to end that war without massive American casualties.  Without the A-bombs the Japanese would have fought on for much longer and it would have cost tens of thousands of US casualties.
 
2014-01-07 12:12:51 PM

mjbok: dittybopper: We bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki in retaliation for a direct military attack.

Are you talking about Pearl Harbor?  If you are, then no, you're wrong.  Not taking into account that it was nearly four years later, even if the US had the capability to do it in January of 1942 they wouldn't have.  The A-bombs were dropped as it was seen as the only way to end that war without massive American casualties.  Without the A-bombs the Japanese would have fought on for much longer and it would have cost tens of thousands of US casualties.


Wait, remind me again why we entered the war against Japan?

It's not like we were going to attack Japan:  We were focused on Europe, not the Far East.  Had Japan not attacked the US, it's unlikely the atomic bomb would have even been developed in time to use in Europe, because most of those ships and men would have been in the Atlantic, and invading Europe.

As it was, the Allies defeated Germany two months prior to the first nuclear test.  Can you imagine if they industrial and economic might of the US had been focused solely on Europe?  It's likely the war would have ended in 1944, perhaps even sooner.

So honestly, the Pearl Harbor attack set into motion the not-quite 4 year long chain of events that culminated in two mushroom clouds over Japanese soil.

Oh, and I don't care how far back you go, the root cause of those clouds was Japanese imperialism.
 
2014-01-07 12:15:26 PM

yakmans_dad: give me doughnuts: sno man: give me doughnuts: You mean these two?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 400x324]

seriously?

Turned over lots of confidential stuff to a Communist country.
They didn't quite make it to Russia, but he did.

Given our history of Anything Goes (Hiroshima, Nagasaki) and the frenzied anti-Communism we sport from time to time, I think the odds that we'd have used the nukes on the Soviet Union were pretty good.  Do you see the Rosenbergs as at the least comprehensible in their motives and probably heroes?


I could see how someone could make that case too, they were long time communists before nationalists, and assuming they had an understanding of, and desire for Detente through a balanced level of power which would be the status quo throughout the cold war, so they/he shared the bomb info to equal the playing field.  Actually makes more sense that doing it for the money.
 
2014-01-07 12:15:32 PM

dittybopper: As it was, the Allies defeated Germany two months prior to the first nuclear test.  Can you imagine if they industrial and economic might of the US had been focused solely on Europe?  It's likely the war would have ended in 1944, perhaps even sooner.


BTW, this would have been better for us:  We'd have taken a bigger chunk of Europe out of Stalin's grasping fingers.  The Warsaw Pact wouldn't have existed.  Stupid Japanese farkin' up post-war Europe.
 
2014-01-07 12:18:25 PM

give me doughnuts: sno man: give me doughnuts: sno man: give me doughnuts: You mean these two?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 400x324]

seriously?

Turned over lots of confidential stuff to a Communist country.
They didn't quite make it to Russia, but he did.

Yea it's a shame no-one but the commies got all the info from Snowden.


Relevance?

If he only wanted to be a whistle-blower, he should have just stayed in the US. Fleeing to another country just looks like an attempt at espionage for profit.


If the US wanted to foster an environment where people like him stayed and faced the music maybe they shouldn't have tortured people in the name of national security.
 
2014-01-07 12:20:31 PM

give me doughnuts: sno man: give me doughnuts: sno man: give me doughnuts: You mean these two?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 400x324]

seriously?

Turned over lots of confidential stuff to a Communist country.
They didn't quite make it to Russia, but he did.

Yea it's a shame no-one but the commies got all the info from Snowden.


Relevance?

If he only wanted to be a whistle-blower, he should have just stayed in the US. Fleeing to another country just looks like an attempt at espionage for profit.


Yea right.  If he stayed in the U.S. he'd be in a very tiny room somewhere, and the NSA secrets would still be.  It's okay though, you would have felt safer not knowing.  Fleeing to another country was the only thing he could do, and still get the information out.
 
2014-01-07 12:26:44 PM

baka-san: Another big difference, these guys weren't self publicity whore dicks


Yeah... you seem to miss the key ingredient of being a whistleblower in the modern era: you have to go public and (important) stay public.

How could you possibly fail to understand that and still think it's ok to comment on the subject?
 
2014-01-07 12:32:41 PM

give me doughnuts: sno man: give me doughnuts: sno man: give me doughnuts: You mean these two?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 400x324]

seriously?

Turned over lots of confidential stuff to a Communist country.
They didn't quite make it to Russia, but he did.

Yea it's a shame no-one but the commies got all the info from Snowden.


Relevance?

If he only wanted to be a whistle-blower, he should have just stayed in the US. Fleeing to another country just looks like an attempt at espionage for profit.


Sweet Jebus. Why can't the Snowden bashers get this through your heads? In very recent history people like Manning, Loomis, Binney & Wiebe have 'blown whistles' some even through official legal channels. At best they've been smeared and condemned by govt and at worst they've been jailed and tortured.

So the very likely reason is Snowden doesn't want to roll the dice with our 'justice' system, get railroaded and smeared, and spend most the rest of his life being tortured in prison.

But my guess is you know this and keep puking it up because your some combo of an NSA apologist and just have some irrational dislike of him based a picture. Oh, and maybe you know this guy has the guts to actually DO something that would make you wet yourself.
 
2014-01-07 12:47:18 PM

dittybopper: yakmans_dad: Given our history of Anything Goes (Hiroshima, Nagasaki) and the frenzied anti-Communism we sport from time to time, I think the odds that we'd have used the nukes on the Soviet Union were pretty good.  Do you see the Rosenbergs as at the least comprehensible in their motives and probably heroes?

Well, *NO*.

We bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki in retaliation for a direct military attack.  So it wasn't "Anything Goes".  We were in an actual, all-out, knock-down-drag-out war with Japan.

I think the odds that we'd have used nukes on the Soviet Union to be pretty much non-existent outside of some major provocation by Stalin.  Not that he could really do much to us at the time, but prior to the U-2 flights and later Corona satellites, we didn't know that.  I was all conjecture, supported by tourist sightings and debriefing of defectors.

We can look back and confidently predict that the Soviet Union really didn't have a response to US power up until the mid-to-late 1960's, but it took us nearly 2 decades to suss that out, and once we did, they had become a serious threat.


the irony is the US didn't have the means to back up our position.  if the Russians called our bluff anytime before 58, well, it was game over.  the US nearly started a pre-emptive  nuclear war against the USSR in the early 1950's.  Eisenhower didn't get sucked into it (luckily).  the Russian response to "Castle Bravo" - and the fact it was dropped from a plane, that woke the US up.  the US dropped bombs on Japan to let everyone know (ie the Soviets) thatwe had the tech to move war from multiple theaters to a single offensive strike.  big, consuming, and lethal for all.
 
2014-01-07 12:50:02 PM
dittybopper:

Wait, remind me again why we entered the war against Japan?

rubber, oil, land for imperialism.
 
2014-01-07 12:56:16 PM

dittybopper: dittybopper: As it was, the Allies defeated Germany two months prior to the first nuclear test.  Can you imagine if they industrial and economic might of the US had been focused solely on Europe?  It's likely the war would have ended in 1944, perhaps even sooner.

BTW, this would have been better for us:  We'd have taken a bigger chunk of Europe out of Stalin's grasping fingers.  The Warsaw Pact wouldn't have existed.  Stupid Japanese farkin' up post-war Europe.


the US entered the war when Germany declared war on the US in response the the US declaring war on Japan.  had the Japanese not attacked the US imperial holding of Hawaii, would the US have entered the war in Europe???  the US and Japan had spent the better part of 2 decades sink ships of each other's flag.   island hopping was happening for a reason, why did the US want those islands in the Pacific?
 
2014-01-07 12:57:19 PM

mjbok: dittybopper: We bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki in retaliation for a direct military attack.

Are you talking about Pearl Harbor?



He can't be.  It was the Germans who bombed Pearl Harbor.
 
2014-01-07 12:58:58 PM

gshepnyc: baka-san: Another big difference, these guys weren't self publicity whore dicks

Yeah... you seem to miss the key ingredient of being a whistleblower in the modern era: you have to go public and (important) stay public.

How could you possibly fail to understand that and still think it's ok to comment on the subject?


no you don't.  there are many was, even within the system, to expose perceived wrong doings.  Snowden gets no pardon from me, the fact we know his name is justification enough to not grant one.  the foreign sigint material is his death sentence in my book.  he should never have been given the access he had - so many failures of systems - thank you American people (and yes we are to blame).
 
2014-01-07 01:10:39 PM

sno man: give me doughnuts: sno man: give me doughnuts: sno man: give me doughnuts: You mean these two?

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 400x324]

seriously?

Turned over lots of confidential stuff to a Communist country.
They didn't quite make it to Russia, but he did.

Yea it's a shame no-one but the commies got all the info from Snowden.


Relevance?

If he only wanted to be a whistle-blower, he should have just stayed in the US. Fleeing to another country just looks like an attempt at espionage for profit.

Yea right.  If he stayed in the U.S. he'd be in a very tiny room somewhere, and the NSA secrets would still be.  It's okay though, you would have felt safer not knowing.  Fleeing to another country was the only thing he could do, and still get the information out.


It's like you've never even heard of the Internet.
 
2014-01-07 01:13:54 PM

asciibaron: no you don't.  there are many was, even within the system, to expose perceived wrong doings.


That's easy to say from the comfort of your mom's basement but the guy out there actually exposing the illegal activity did it the way he did it and it worked to get a national dialogue going about the subject.
 
2014-01-07 01:14:31 PM

give me doughnuts: It's like you've never even heard of the Internet.


Oh, I forgot, he could have just put it all on his facebook wall, or uploaded it to the cloud.  That would have worked for sure, you got me there.
 
2014-01-07 01:15:55 PM

Headso: asciibaron: no you don't.  there are many was, even within the system, to expose perceived wrong doings.

That's easy to say from the comfort of your mom's basement but the guy out there actually exposing the illegal activity did it the way he did it and it worked to get a national dialogue going about the subject.


ditty and i know something you don't.  there might be others here that also know.  do you know how i know that you don't know what i know you don't know?
 
2014-01-07 01:19:50 PM

sno man: give me doughnuts: It's like you've never even heard of the Internet.

Oh, I forgot, he could have just put it all on his facebook wall, or uploaded it to the cloud.  That would have worked for sure, you got me there.


or he could have simply exposed the out of mission stuff that was illegally targeting US citizens and left the foreign sigint stuff alone.  he did this for fame and for his ego, not for the American people.  the info grab is proof that he wanted to make a huge splash.  he is a coward in my eyes.  a hero doesn't do things for personal gain (and yes, he is getting personal gain from his actions).
 
2014-01-07 01:21:11 PM

asciibaron: Headso: asciibaron: no you don't.  there are many was, even within the system, to expose perceived wrong doings.

That's easy to say from the comfort of your mom's basement but the guy out there actually exposing the illegal activity did it the way he did it and it worked to get a national dialogue going about the subject.

ditty and i know something you don't.  there might be others here that also know.  do you know how i know that you don't know what i know you don't know?


by that post it looks like you know you got nothin
 
2014-01-07 01:23:05 PM
as for dialogue about it... this info isn't new, it was exposed in 2006 - others exposed the same illegal activity - where is that debate?
 
2014-01-07 01:32:36 PM
it's not new but yet the national dialogue over spying and the court cases that stemmed from that debate happened after Snowden exposed it. Maybe it needed controversy where people like you are on one side and people like me are on the other for it to be interesting enough for the media to cover it. But for whatever reason it took his actions to actually get it going.
 
2014-01-07 01:35:00 PM

asciibaron: sno man: give me doughnuts: It's like you've never even heard of the Internet.

Oh, I forgot, he could have just put it all on his facebook wall, or uploaded it to the cloud.  That would have worked for sure, you got me there.

or he could have simply exposed the out of mission stuff that was illegally targeting US citizens and left the foreign sigint stuff alone.  he did this for fame and for his ego, not for the American people.  the info grab is proof that he wanted to make a huge splash.  he is a coward in my eyes.  a hero doesn't do things for personal gain (and yes, he is getting personal gain from his actions).


Other than most of the foreign stuff was also illegal.  You are of course untitled to your opinion, but I can't imagine some schmo tossing his entire life in the chipper for the glory of having blown a whistle, and besides, did you see the girlfriend he left behind?  There is no person gain leaving her behind.
 
2014-01-07 01:36:29 PM

asciibaron: sno man: give me doughnuts: It's like you've never even heard of the Internet.

Oh, I forgot, he could have just put it all on his facebook wall, or uploaded it to the cloud.  That would have worked for sure, you got me there.

or he could have simply exposed the out of mission stuff that was illegally targeting US citizens and left the foreign sigint stuff alone.  he did this for fame and for his ego, not for the American people.  the info grab is proof that he wanted to make a huge splash.  he is a coward in my eyes.  a hero doesn't do things for personal gain (and yes, he is getting personal gain from his actions).


I see that you've never been to Russia.
 
2014-01-07 01:37:21 PM

sno man: You are of course untitled to your opinion


I hope you have copyrighted that expression.
 
2014-01-07 01:39:05 PM

yakmans_dad: sno man: You are of course untitled to your opinion

I hope you have copyrighted that expression.


ha... getting on that right now.
 
2014-01-07 01:40:12 PM

asciibaron: the US entered the war when Germany declared war on the US in response the the US declaring war on Japan.  had the Japanese not attacked the US imperial holding of Hawaii, would the US have entered the war in Europe???  the US and Japan had spent the better part of 2 decades sink ships of each other's flag.   island hopping was happening for a reason, why did the US want those islands in the Pacific?


Yes.

We were in an undeclared shooting war with Germany prior to December 7th, 1941:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Reuben_James_(DD-245)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Kearny_(DD-432)#Kearny_incident

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Niblack_(DD-424)#Service_in_the_At lantic.2C_1940.E2.80.9343

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USCGC_Northland_(WPG-49)

We were actively escorting British convoys, and shooting at and being shot at, by German u-boats.

I'd consider that being at war, even if it was undeclared.

It was only a matter of time before an incident happened.   For example, the battleship USS Texas narrowly escaped being sunk by U-203 on June 20th, 1941.  It was basically just luck in that the U-203 couldn't get into position to shoot that saved the Texas.
 
2014-01-07 01:41:21 PM
Government really really hates it when you expose there illegal activity.
 
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