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(24/7 Wall Street)   How do you judge which are America's favorite NBA teams? By ticket prices of course. In other news, Bucks fans should be getting paid to go to games   (247wallst.com) divider line 41
    More: Interesting, NBA, nba teams, away games, home games, TiqIQ  
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641 clicks; posted to Sports » on 07 Jan 2014 at 10:22 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



41 Comments   (+0 »)
   

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2014-01-07 11:22:37 AM  
I hope they suck their way all the way to a great draft pick.  The only chance they have in today's NBA.
 
2014-01-07 11:27:59 AM  
Werent the Warriors the most popular League Pass team at the start of the season?
 
2014-01-07 11:36:19 AM  
It actually seems harder to get really cheap tix for the Bucks on Stubhub this year than last year. Must have been fewer season ticket sales this year.

Last year for a lot of games, $30 was enough to buy four seats in the front row of the upper deck at center court. This year you're looking at over ten bucks per seat.
 
2014-01-07 12:47:48 PM  
There are a lot of headwinds facing the Bucks, both on the court and off it, in Milwaukee.

• The Bradley Center is falling apart in a lot of ways and wasn't even designed for basketball, as it was meant for an NHL hockey team that never came.  It's cramped and inadequate relative to other NBA arenas for players and fans alike.

•  The winters here are brutally cold and while there's a bar scene, it's not exactly a "nightlife" scene (more like party taverns than clubs), which is one of many reasons players don't want to come here and people don't see downtown as a destination if they're over 25.

•  It's a relatively small TV market, so there's not much exposure for players or chances for major side sponsorships.

•  The owner, former Senator and former Kohl's owner Herb Kohl, is old and kind of clueless.  Things fell right for him 15 years ago when he was able to parlay Glenn Robinson, a young Ray Allen and George Karl into a 2001 trip to the Conference Finals, but before that and since then, his ownership has been plagued by poor personnel decisions.  He gave his college a ginormous gift for a truly spectacular basketball/hockey facility, arguably better than the Bradley Center, in the Kohl Center in Madison, but seems unwilling to do the same for the Bucks.

•  Speaking of those conference finals, a questionable suspension that hurt the Bucks that year and the Kings/Lakers debacle in 2002 gave folks here the impression the NBA doesn't  want small-market teams to succeed, inasmuch as even officiating against them.  The NBA not only feels fixed, but it feels fixed against the Bucks and other small-market teams so TV revenues can stay high.  Plus, fans here are used to being Packers/Brewers fans.  We're not like other markets where we'll go to watch the stars on other teams.  We want our  team to win, with or without superstars, but that's not how the NBA is set up in this star-driven era.

•  This has only been exacerbated by star players' ability to essentially "pick" which teams they want to play for and kind of ganging up on each other, like the Heat did and Lakers tried (and failed) to do.  They aren't going to pick Milwaukee.

•  The league clearly wants the team to get a new arena to draw revenue, but there was a protracted fight to get Miller Park built here that cost some politicians their jobs and no one wants to make that fight again for what is arguably a less-popular  team (that "team" thing again that doesn't seem to be what the NBA is about).

•  The public wants the business community here to step up, but there isn't much of one left here.  Harley-Davidson is struggling.  Miller Brewing Co. is no longer Milwaukee-based.  Kohl's is here, but that's essentially your current owner.  Northwestern Mutual Life is building a new skyscraper downtown right now and probably don't want to take on much more liability at the moment.  The only other business in town that makes any money is the Potawotami tribe at their casino, but they have no reason to do risk snapping up an unpopular product.  No outside owner is going to take on the Bucks' situation out of mere charity to the city.

•  Without big business here, there also aren't the hot-shot executive types around town who can afford the high-end, club-seat ticket prices the NBA wants every team to be able to charge.  The Bradley Center doesn't even have that kind of seating, much less the paying public in the city who can afford it.

•  Then there's the  really ugly part -- Milwaukee is the nation's most segregated city.  Combine the Bucks' downturn with the league's post-Jordan identification with hip-hop culture and while Milwaukeeans aren't  overtly racist, it does seem like white people seem to only like to associate with other white-people and white-people things here, while our African-American community is in sad economic shape, lacking leadership and isolated to "its" part of town.  As a result, I think a large part of the white community here turned off to the Bucks and it's going to be a struggle to get them back.   I cringe a little at one of the arguments I hear some (white) folks here make: "Forget the NBA, let's get a hockey team!" Again, notovertlyracist, but when you take into account our segregation along with the mostly black nature of the NBA and the mostly white nature of the NHL ... I think people here don't understand how what they're saying sounds like in that context.

Take all those facts -- the lack of nightlife, no tradition of winning, the winters, the small-market with no exposure, sponsorships or appearances on national TV, the segregation with few other successful African-Americans to associate with -- and players don't want to come here.  As a result of that, and the league's bias against small-markets, and the culture, and the high-prices in a market with people who don't either have or spend a lot of money -- the team doesn't draw.  And the situation spirals downward.

There's a group of fans trying to get the Bucks to tank this year so they get a superstar in the draft and can build around him.  But we got Andrew Bogut with the first pick in 2005 and that didn't help us.  Even if we do get good, I'm not convinced what happened in 2001 or '02 with the Kings wouldn't happen again.

To be honest?  I'm mentally ready for the Bucks to go.  Not happy about it, but braced for it.  Perhaps as the "team to be named later" in a defacto, 45-year-long "trade" with Seattle for the Pilots/Brewers.  Not now or in the next few years, but perhaps when the lease expires, which I believe is in 2017, as I think Kohl will be gone by then.

The Bradley Center will then stay.  The leftover Bucks fans will then start making do with Marquette basketball.  Maybe an arena football team gets lured back again as the city looks for something to fill some dates in the facility.  But it's not a good enough facility to host another NBA or NHL team, and no one here is willing to build another one now.  Maybe, if major changes happen with our civic plan and some businesses start coming in, in 15 or 20 years, the conversation can start again.

But yeah, Milwaukee's not in a good spot at the moment, particularly when it comes to NBA basketball.
 
2014-01-07 12:52:27 PM  
Your favorite NBA team is the Miami Lebrons.  Because fark you, ESPN says so.
 
2014-01-07 12:55:20 PM  

Lt. Cheese Weasel: Your favorite NBA team is the Miami Lebrons.  Because fark you, ESPN says so.


Sucks someone forced you to watch ESPN. Crying about it here is unlikely to help.
 
2014-01-07 12:57:37 PM  

Pfighting Polish: I'm mentally ready for the Bucks to go.


Favorited as such.
 
2014-01-07 01:11:30 PM  

Pfighting Polish: Speaking of those conference finals, a questionable suspension that hurt the Bucks that year and the Kings/Lakers debacle in 2002 gave folks here the impression the NBA doesn't  want small-market teams to succeed, inasmuch as even officiating against them.  The NBA not only feels fixed, but it feels fixed against the Bucks and other small-market teams so TV revenues can stay high.  Plus, fans here are used to being Packers/Brewers fans.  We're not like other markets where we'll go to watch the stars on other teams.  We want our  team to win, with or without superstars, but that's not how the NBA is set up in this star-driven era.


Oklahoma City, San Antonio, and Indianapolis are now big markets, thanks NBA!
 
2014-01-07 01:14:32 PM  

MugzyBrown: Pfighting Polish: Speaking of those conference finals, a questionable suspension that hurt the Bucks that year and the Kings/Lakers debacle in 2002 gave folks here the impression the NBA doesn't  want small-market teams to succeed, inasmuch as even officiating against them.  The NBA not only feels fixed, but it feels fixed against the Bucks and other small-market teams so TV revenues can stay high.  Plus, fans here are used to being Packers/Brewers fans.  We're not like other markets where we'll go to watch the stars on other teams.  We want our  team to win, with or without superstars, but that's not how the NBA is set up in this star-driven era.

Oklahoma City, San Antonio, and Indianapolis are now big markets, thanks NBA!


It isnt worth it.  They have some other narrative to address your comment.
 
2014-01-07 01:29:46 PM  

Pfighting Polish: There are a lot of headwinds facing the Bucks, both on the court and off it, in Milwaukee.

...


tl;dr

You don't want us to give OUR money to THOSE people do you?
 
2014-01-07 01:31:09 PM  
@PfightingPolish: That's an excellent synopsis of the whole Milwaukee situation--and I can't see anywhere where you were unduly harsh, or "went easy" on some constituency. Any civic/NBA discussion of the situation, perhaps including plans for change ("gotta have a new arena," etc.) ought to start with everyone taking a minute to read through your post and nodding silently at its many truths.

+1   +1    +1    +1    +1
 
2014-01-07 01:35:10 PM  

MugzyBrown: Oklahoma City, San Antonio, and Indianapolis are now big markets, thanks NBA!


Hell, even Miami isn't a big market. It's just one where some people might want to live.
 
2014-01-07 01:46:57 PM  

pdieten: Last year for a lot of games, $30 was enough to buy four seats in the front row of the upper deck at center court. This year you're looking at over ten bucks per seat.


It's been like that with the Hawks on StubHub too, no seat cheaper than $20 anywhere in the arena, when last year $20 would get your 4 tickets in the lower bowl. I honestly don't know why the prices have skyrocketed, but I'm not amused.
 
2014-01-07 01:51:38 PM  

Tiberius Gracchus: Pfighting Polish: There are a lot of headwinds facing the Bucks, both on the court and off it, in Milwaukee.

...

tl;dr

You don't want us to give OUR money to THOSE people do you?


Eh, it's not really that. Today's NBA culture is maybe a bit alien to large parts of Milwaukee's culture (especially the part with enough money to spend on full-price tickets), but the people here would come out to see it if the product on the court were entertaining. It's been years since there was anything worth buzzing about on the Bradley Center floor. I don't know if much of the city would miss the team if it were gone.

That aside, tickets are tough to get when the Bulls or Heat come to town.

I would not be happy if the team left. But I'd get over it. We entertain ourselves pretty well with the Admirals.
 
2014-01-07 02:25:57 PM  

Pfighting Polish: There are a lot of headwinds facing the Bucks, both on the court and off it, in Milwaukee.

• The Bradley Center is falling apart in a lot of ways and wasn't even designed for basketball, as it was meant for an NHL hockey team that never came.  It's cramped and inadequate relative to other NBA arenas for players and fans alike.


Yep.  The sightlines are made for hockey and there's a shortage of luxury boxes.

•  The owner, former Senator and former Kohl's owner Herb Kohl, is old and kind of clueless.  Things fell right for him 15 years ago when he was able to parlay Glenn Robinson, a young Ray Allen and George Karl into a 2001 trip to the Conference Finals, but before that and since then, his ownership has been plagued by poor personnel decisions.  He gave his college a ginormous gift for a truly spectacular basketball/hockey facility, arguably better than the Bradley Center, in the Kohl Center in Madison, but seems unwilling to do the same for the Bucks.

Not probably, the Kohl Center is in every way better than the Bradley Center except that it's about 1,000 seats smaller.  Which honestly, would be fine for the Bucks anyway.

•  Then there's the  really ugly part -- Milwaukee is the nation's most segregated city.  Combine the Bucks' downturn with the league's post-Jordan identification with hip-hop culture and while Milwaukeeans aren't  overtly racist, it does seem like white people seem to only like to associate with other white-people and white-people things here, while our African-American community is in sad economic shape, lacking leadership and isolated to "its" part of town.  As a result, I think a large part of the white community here turned off to the Bucks and it's going to be a struggle to get them back.   I cringe a little at one of the arguments I hear some (white) folks here make: "Forget the NBA, let's get a hockey team!" Again, notovertlyracist, but when you take into account our segregation along with the mostly black nature of the NBA and the mostly white nature of the NHL ... I think people here don't understand how what they're saying sounds like in that context.

There are plenty of reasons to not want to support another public financing for a private stadium here in Milwaukee.  We all get reminded about it on a daily basis with 0.1% of everything we buy.  I don't necessarily want to see the Bucks leave either, but this frisking local governments to the benefit of billionaires has to stop somewhere.  Not to mention the Bucks are a flailing franchise with no direction in a league that, as you said, kind of wishes they would go away.

NHL hockey probably would be more successful here, and you could probably renovate the existing stadium to make it happen, but honestly that's not going to happen either.  In modern sports, the size of your TV market is a big determining factor of your revenue, and the Milwaukee one is pretty small.

pdieten: Eh, it's not really that. Today's NBA culture is maybe a bit alien to large parts of Milwaukee's culture (especially the part with enough money to spend on full-price tickets), but the people here would come out to see it if the product on the court were entertaining. It's been years since there was anything worth buzzing about on the Bradley Center floor. I don't know if much of the city would miss the team if it were gone.


The entire state of Wisconsin will come out to support a winning Milwaukee pro sports team, but otherwise they'll stay home.  The Bradley Center was full and lively for the "Fear the Deer" microrevival in 2010.  The Brewers ranked 7th (!) overall in attendance during the 2011 division champion season.  Both numbers fell off significantly after those franchises regressed.
 
2014-01-07 02:45:44 PM  

MugzyBrown: Oklahoma City, San Antonio, and Indianapolis are now big markets, thanks NBA!


There are a number of advantages those cities have on the Bucks, per what I put above:  Warmth (OKC & SA), better leadership (all three), cities that are growing rather than declining (all three), the support of a whole state (OKC & Indy) and a legacy of relatively recent extended success (SA & Indy).

Yes, they're smallish markets, but they're also larger markets than Milwaukee and, unlike Milwaukee, are drawing businesses and growing.  That's the biggest thing.

Also, with OKC and Indy, that "support of the whole state" thing makes a difference, too.  Indiana is basketball-crazy, while you sense Oklahoma really embraces having a major-league pro team for the first time.  On the flip side, a few of the counties surrounding Milwaukee that helped fund the Brewers' stadium tax district have preemptively -- yes, preemptively, as in before any actual plans have materialized -- passed dicta saying they won't support a new Bucks' arena.  Ouch.

Furthermore, while you may call those three "successful," only one of the three has won a title, and I'm still not convinced the Heat (er, NBA) won't figure out a way past the Pacers this year.

Tiberius Gracchus: You don't want us to give OUR money to THOSE people do you?


I'm not sure what you mean by THOSE people -- if that means the players, or the owners, or what.  Whatever it is, that's the kind of feeling that will cost us a pro sports team.

GrizzledVeteran: That's an excellent synopsis of the whole Milwaukee situation


Thanks, though I wish it wasn't the way it is.  I'm third-generation Milwaukee.  I want to be proud of my town and what it's doing because I'm not leaving.  I feel like a lot of what we have here is kind of broken, though.

pdieten: Today's NBA culture is maybe a bit alien to large parts of Milwaukee's culture (especially the part with enough money to spend on full-price tickets), but the people here would come out to see it if the product on the court were entertaining. It's been years since there was anything worth buzzing about on the Bradley Center floor. I don't know if much of the city would miss the team if it were gone.

That aside, tickets are tough to get when the Bulls or Heat come to town.

I would not be happy if the team left. But I'd get over it. We entertain ourselves pretty well with the Admirals.


The 2000-01 team did capture the town's attention, as kinda did the "Fear the Deer" bunch when Jennings started to get them excited.  But again, the guys that would get folks buzzing?  They don't want to come here.

I think part of the Heat thing is because D-Wade is still on the team.  He's still a God to a lot of Marquette fans.  And the Bulls just draw a lot of Bulls fans from Chicago or folks who never left the bandwagon after Jordan.

Our "entertaining ourselves pretty well with the Admirals" is kind of the problem.  It sounds like a lot of Milwaukeeans are OK with the city becoming minor-league.  I'm not, because I want to see our city be Utopian, constantly growing and doing things better than everyplace else, save the weather that we can't do anything about.  But ... we might be headed the minor-league way.
 
2014-01-07 03:08:39 PM  

Pfighting Polish: the support of a whole state (OKC & Indy)


This is most-certainly not true for Indiana.  You will find large parts of the State that support the Bulls (NW Indiana - "The Region" or the same area that are die-hard Bears fans) and even parts that support the Cavs (small part of NE Indiana).  The overall basketball craziness of the State mostly applies to the various college teams (e.g., IU, Purdue, Notre Dame, etc.).  Not too many people outside of the immediate-Indy area really cares about the Pacers with the exception of the Playoffs and/or (if/when we make) the Finals.
 
2014-01-07 03:15:52 PM  

CmndrFish: There are plenty of reasons to not want to support another public financing for a private stadium here in Milwaukee.  We all get reminded about it on a daily basis with 0.1% of everything we buy.  I don't necessarily want to see the Bucks leave either, but this frisking local governments to the benefit of billionaires has to stop somewhere.

NHL hockey probably would be more successful here, and you could probably renovate the existing stadium to make it happen, but honestly that's not going to happen either.  In modern sports, the size of your TV market is a big determining factor of your revenue, and the Milwaukee one is pretty small.

The entire state of Wisconsin will come out to support a winning Milwaukee pro sports team, but otherwise they'll stay home.  The Bradley Center was full and lively for the "Fear the Deer" microrevival in 2010.  The Brewers ranked 7th (!) overall in attendance during the 2011 division champion season.  Both numbers fell off significantly after those franchises regressed.


I was pro-Miller Park and I'd be OK with another .1 percent, but that's also partly how my philosophy is divergent from much of the rest of the area's right now.  I don't see it as "frisking local governments to the benefit of billionaires."  You yourself said you don't necessarily want to see the Bucks leave.  If they don't because of a tax, then you're getting something you want (the Bucks staying), so you see a benefit -- not a direct financial one, but one in terms of getting something you want (the Bucks staying).  If you want something, you have to pay for it, sometimes through taxes.

This area is becoming so penny-pinchy that it seems like we've decided we're willing to not have anything (decent public schools, public transit, parks, sports teams, whatever) because we don't want to spend anything.  To me, that kind of sucks.  But having those things means they have to be available to everyone, and I think that's part of the issue.  We've gotten kind of selfish.  "I don't want to pay for public transit because it costs too much for me to have my SUV.  I don't want parks because it costs too much in taxes for me and my suburban house and backyard.  I don't want a major-league team here because it costs too much for me to put my own kid in club sports."  Et cetera.  I guess I just have too much old-school Milwaukee, Zeidler-esque socialist in my blood, but I guess I wish it wasn't that way.

Could NHL hockey be successful here?  Maybe.  Perhaps even probably, with a better facility.  But again, given our city's race issues, consciously swapping the NBA for the NHL is, very indirectly, kind of punting on Milwaukee ever being anything but a black/white separate city.  Perhaps my conscious is being overly strong, but I'm not comfortable with that.

As for the fair-weather fan bit, Wisconsinites don't like to think of themselves that way, but they are.  We fool ourselves with the Packers, but the Packers have drawn for the last 20 years because, with Aaron Rodgers or Brett Favre, you always felt like they  could win.  Before those guys, the Packers were routinely blacked out when they played in Milwaukee.  Same thing with the Badgers, who were drawing dirt before Barry Alvarez turned the program around.  Have them go back to being what they were in the Don Morton days (which I'm rooting for, as a Marquette fan) and they won't draw again, either.

We don't have the income here to spend money on a team we don't think will give us enjoyment, and we're not the types that go out to games to "entertain clients."  We want to see our teams win and won't go unless we think we'll get that satisfaction.  Sad but true.
 
2014-01-07 03:19:18 PM  

IndyMBA: Pfighting Polish: the support of a whole state (OKC & Indy)

This is most-certainly not true for Indiana.  You will find large parts of the State that support the Bulls (NW Indiana - "The Region" or the same area that are die-hard Bears fans) and even parts that support the Cavs (small part of NE Indiana).  The overall basketball craziness of the State mostly applies to the various college teams (e.g., IU, Purdue, Notre Dame, etc.).  Not too many people outside of the immediate-Indy area really cares about the Pacers with the exception of the Playoffs and/or (if/when we make) the Finals.


I only visit Indiana occasionally, so OK, I'll punt on that one as a mere guess on my part.

But if you ask me which city is doing better right now between Milwaukee and Indianapolis, I'll look at what's gone on over on the east side of Indianapolis and say Indianapolis over Milwaukee every time.

It does seem like there are a few small-market teams that make a run now and then in the NBA, almost as if it happens to try and give us (false) hope.  But, like I said, until one wins a title, or doesn't get screwed out of one ... I'm still going to cast a skewed eye towards the NBA.
 
2014-01-07 03:26:27 PM  

Pfighting Polish: As for the fair-weather fan bit, Wisconsinites don't like to think of themselves that way, but they are.


I'd like to point out that EVERYONE is. It's not limited to an area. Only a few dedicated idiots love paying a ton of money to watch their team get its ass kicked every week, and they are what we know as Clevelanders. They are to be mocked and scorned, not held up as an ideal to aspire to. If you don't enjoy something, you stop doing it unless you're getting something else out of it that makes the misery bearable.

If "but I'm a REAL fan" is all it takes you, then you're sad.

/I agree with the rest of what you're saying, however. Especially about the not being willing to pay for things, but that's a most-of-the-US problem, too. Don't want to turn this into a politics thread, though.
 
2014-01-07 03:31:38 PM  

Pfighting Polish: But if you ask me which city is doing better right now between Milwaukee and Indianapolis, I'll look at what's gone on over on the east side of Indianapolis and say Indianapolis over Milwaukee every time.

It does seem like there are a few small-market teams that make a run now and then in the NBA, almost as if it happens to try and give us (false) hope. But, like I said, until one wins a title, or doesn't get screwed out of one ... I'm still going to cast a skewed eye towards the NBA.


East side of Indy vs. Milwaukee is debatable but that's a different discussion. :)

The major outlier right now in the small market discussion is San Antonio; by ALL measures they are a small market team.  They've won several championships in the last decade.  I'd like my small market team to win a championship but the Heat always seem to get the last laugh in an extended series prior to the Finals.
 
2014-01-07 03:43:17 PM  

IAmRight: 'd like to point out that EVERYONE is


The average fan does not want to spend money on a shiatty product and usually starts paying attention to a team when the stakes are high (i.e. playoffs).

Fans who look down on other fans suck the most.  Cheer loud and shut....up?  WHATEVER!
 
2014-01-07 03:44:30 PM  

IAmRight: Don't want to turn this into a politics thread, though.


This is probably the most politics I've ever talked on Fark.  But, sadly, the Bucks staying in or leaving Milwaukee is basically a political issue here, as well as a proxy on a lot of other issues in this town, as already outlined.

We've lost our PGA tournament.  We've kinda lost our Indycar race (they've come back the last couple years, but the date is no longer guaranteed).  We've lacked the proper management to hold onto an arena football team.  Talk of an MLS team has pretty much died in an area where youth & club soccer has always been ridiculously strong.  We kept our baseball team by the skin of our teeth.  We might now lose our basketball team.

Meanwhile, we're terribly segregated, we lack locally-based big business and it seems like the politicians are either on the side of "keep the few big fish we have left around by making them happy and screw the little guy" or "we want to help the little guy, but we're incompetent."

At some point, Milwaukeeans have to wonder what's going wrong.
 
2014-01-07 03:45:59 PM  

IAmRight: Pfighting Polish: As for the fair-weather fan bit, Wisconsinites don't like to think of themselves that way, but they are.

I'd like to point out that EVERYONE is. It's not limited to an area. Only a few dedicated idiots love paying a ton of money to watch their team get its ass kicked every week, and they are what we know as Clevelanders. They are to be mocked and scorned, not held up as an ideal to aspire to. If you don't enjoy something, you stop doing it unless you're getting something else out of it that makes the misery bearable.

If "but I'm a REAL fan" is all it takes you, then you're sad.

/I agree with the rest of what you're saying, however. Especially about the not being willing to pay for things, but that's a most-of-the-US problem, too. Don't want to turn this into a politics thread, though.


Let's just say that now isn't a good time for the Bucks to be asking for anything from the community. The Brewers and Packers were always above-the-fold news, even in their down times. NBA basketball has just never been higher than #3 in the average sports fan's mindset around here. If it ever was, I don't remember it.

If the team were successful and we weren't living in such a violently anti-tax era, the city would probably be more willing to play ball to get a new arena built. In the world of 2014, with a bad team playing in a city that's having a crisis of confidence, it's going to be very difficult.
 
2014-01-07 03:51:51 PM  

Pfighting Polish: I was pro-Miller Park and I'd be OK with another .1 percent, but that's also partly how my philosophy is divergent from much of the rest of the area's right now.  I don't see it as "frisking local governments to the benefit of billionaires."  You yourself said you don't necessarily want to see the Bucks leave.  If they don't because of a tax, then you're getting something you want (the Bucks staying), so you see a benefit -- not a direct financial one, but one in terms of getting something you want (the Bucks staying).  If you want something, you have to pay for it, sometimes through taxes.

This area is becoming so penny-pinchy that it seems like we've decided we're willing to not have anything (decent public schools, public transit, parks, sports teams, whatever) because we don't want to spend anything.  To me, that kind of sucks.  But having those things means they have to be available to everyone, and I think that's part of the issue.  We've gotten kind of selfish.  "I don't want to pay for public transit because it costs too much for me to have my SUV.  I don't want parks because it costs too much in taxes for me and my suburban house and backyard.  I don't want a major-league team here because it costs too much for me to put my own kid in club sports."  Et cetera.  I guess I just have too much old-school Milwaukee, Zeidler-esque socialist in my blood, but I guess I wish it wasn't that way.


You're really preaching to the choir more than you think on this one.  Let me just put it to you this way, I live in Riverwest, comrade.

In my case, I'm against public funding for sports stadia because of the opportunity cost.  We should be looking to get dedicated funding for the on-the-brink transit system through sales taxes, not keep the Bucks here for questionable economic benefit.  Or stop the cuts to the parks system.  Or to reform the way we fund public schools.  Take your pick, there are many, MANY more pressing issues in hand in this metropolitan area, and yes I say metropolitan area, because way too often the suburban counties try to have their cake and decide not to pay for it too.

We're all in this together, even though everybody from their little fiefdom (and this isn't a slight just at the suburbs, the black community here in Milwaukee has been a major opponent of regional integration as well) sticks their head in the sand and pretends like the problems "over there" don't effect them.

I'm secretly hoping the failings of the Walker county (and state) administrations force a wakeup call among the leaders around here, because between the dire fiscal straits of the county and the drop of state support to all forms of municipal government, we're on a crash course with a brick wall.  Many nice things that we take for granted are in serious danger, and it'll soon be gut check time.
 
2014-01-07 03:59:02 PM  

pdieten: Let's just say that now isn't a good time for the Bucks to be asking for anything from the community. The Brewers and Packers were always above-the-fold news, even in their down times. NBA basketball has just never been higher than #3 in the average sports fan's mindset around here. If it ever was, I don't remember it.

If the team were successful and we weren't living in such a violently anti-tax era, the city would probably be more willing to play ball to get a new arena built. In the world of 2014, with a bad team playing in a city that's having a crisis of confidence, it's going to be very difficult.


Yup.

I think it's fair to say the Bucks and basketball were the biggest sports thing in town in the 70's.  You had Kareem & The Big 'O' doing their thing and you also had some great Marquette teams, too.  The Brewers were still paying the price for the Braves breaking the town's heart and the Packers fell into Devine-era misery.  The Bucks kept it going into the 80's, with Moncrief, Cummings, Sikma and Nelson, as the Packers remained miserable, though the Brewers got folks' attention back with The Triumphant Trio.

That was 35 years ago, though.  Basically two generations.  And the NBA was a whole lot different then.  A little more ... I dunno, "fair."

"Crisis of confidence."  Yup, that's Milwaukee right now.  We'll see how the new tower developments along the lakefront help.  Hopefully they will.
 
2014-01-07 04:03:03 PM  

Pfighting Polish: We've lacked the proper management to hold onto an arena football team.


I know. I work for the version of it that moved. =)

Gunny Highway: The average fan does not want to spend money on a shiatty product and usually starts paying attention to a team when the stakes are high (i.e. playoffs).


Exactly. BIRGing, baby! (And CORFing)

/basking in reflected glory, cutting off reflected failure in case you didn't have a sports marketing class
 
2014-01-07 04:04:37 PM  

Pfighting Polish: That was 35 years ago, though.  Basically two generations.  And the NBA was a whole lot different then.  A little more ... I dunno, "fair."


A little more..."nearly bankrupt and flying by the seat of its pants and having teams nearly miss games due to poor transportation."
 
2014-01-07 04:06:32 PM  

IAmRight: Exactly. BIRGing, baby! (And CORFing)

/basking in reflected glory, cutting off reflected failure in case you didn't have a sports marketing class


I dont know what that means but I am glad there are acronyms that represent what I was trying to say!
 
2014-01-07 04:09:52 PM  

CmndrFish: You're really preaching to the choir more than you think on this one.


I feel your pain, bud.  If I wasn't simply a born-and-raised sports addict, I'd probably be with you, but I have this addiction I have to feed, which is why I'm pro-Bucks.  Thing is, I'm pro-tax for all those other things, too.  I very much understand where you're coming from, though, and, crazy as it sounds, I do get why folks might not want to support the Bucks.  Heck, see my Boobies.

I live in Greenfield, now, but was raised in the suburbs (lived in New Berlin, school in Brookfield).  My Mom was originally a south-sider (Pulaski High) and my Dad was a north-sider (worked hard to pay his way through MUHS).  Dad commuted to the north side of the city during the day where he managed an office that helped try to find work for the low-income unemployed.  My parents went to UWM, as did I (not together, obviously.)

Given how we kind of had a sense of all sides of the tracks, I really wish we'd see ourselves as a Milwaukee-area region with a common opponent of all things Chicago rather than in-fighting between suburbs and city, white and black, Repubilcan and Democrat, etc. But, that's not how it is right now.  It's not pretty and the result is we're just losing out on a lot of things rather than getting anywhere.
 
2014-01-07 04:13:32 PM  

Gunny Highway: I dont know what that means but I am glad there are acronyms that represent what I was trying to say!


Yup, one of my professors did a whole big research thing on it. Unfortunately all I really got out of it was that those things are very real - you have to work hard to get people to identify with some other aspect of the team when it sucks.

That's why WSU had its "Undefeated Fan" campaign a few years ago. I mean, yeah, it gets made fun of by people who see what you're doing, but you really don't have much of a choice. And if you work with sports fans you'll realize that it's almost impossible to underestimate the average person's media/marketing savvy.

/I really liked that campaign - "our teams totally suck, but by not quitting on them, you're showing that you can't be defeated." A good way to get people to BIRF (bask in reflected failure), which is very difficult, except again, in Cleveland.
 
2014-01-07 04:14:43 PM  

Pfighting Polish: Heck, see my Boobies.


Great work, filter.

/maybe if they ran pro-tax ads on boobs, more people would be inclined to vote for them
 
2014-01-07 04:14:51 PM  

IAmRight: I know. I work for the version of it that moved. =)


I worked one game for the last iteration of the Mustangs in a fairly visible off-the-field sports-marketing role that will remain unspecified.  They were dying on the vine.

I think Milwaukee's been burned one too many times by arena football for it to be successful here for a while (original Mustangs, the spectacular failure that was the non-AFL Bonecrushers and the Iron/second Mustangs).  It will take something like the Bucks leaving for fans to become desperate enough here for winter entertainment to make AFL football work again.  But, could happen.
 
2014-01-07 04:16:17 PM  

IAmRight: Pfighting Polish: Heck, see my Boobies.

Great work, filter.

/maybe if they ran pro-tax ads on boobs, more people would be inclined to vote for them


People would gladly pay a tax not to see my boobies.  I'm no more than an A-cup at best.  Even for moobs, not great.
 
2014-01-07 04:18:49 PM  

Pfighting Polish: I'm not sure what you mean by THOSE people -- if that means the players, or the owners, or what.  Whatever it is, that's the kind of feeling that will cost us a pro sports team.


I meant it as an all inclusive - flexible statement, speaking both to the political/cultural and the athletic discussion. It ranges from "don't give my money to those (rich athletes/billionaire owners)" to the "I can't believe this guy next to me at the bar just they 'only want to support a white sport.'" Both very real attitudes you were spot on about.

Of course the major problem is Milwaukee still hasn't adjusted to the collapse of the manufacturing industries, suburban flight, etc. I personally can't imagine leaving to live in Waukesha or 'Tosa - but apparently everyone else in the area can. Then again, the lady Gracchus works in 'Tosa and commutes from Milwaukee every day, so I guess we're just backwards from the larger Wisconsin milieu. It's so weird driving around downtown proper - there's nobody there, ever, weekday or weekend, work hours or after work hours. I can't figure out where people are all the damn time! (hiding in their offices and then racing back to Waukesha I guess).
 
2014-01-07 04:19:04 PM  

Pfighting Polish: I think Milwaukee's been burned one too many times by arena football for it to be successful here for a while (original Mustangs, the spectacular failure that was the non-AFL Bonecrushers and the Iron/second Mustangs).  It will take something like the Bucks leaving for fans to become desperate enough here for winter entertainment to make AFL football work again.


Yeah, and coming back, then changing your name a year after you get back was not optimal. Also, it won't matter, since AFL season is March-August, so not really in the winter timeframe.

/too bad more people didn't go see the Iron; they were a damn good team
//and I worked for the team that beat them in the playoffs (well, as an intern) and won the title that year =D
 
2014-01-07 04:25:44 PM  

Tiberius Gracchus: Pfighting Polish: I'm not sure what you mean by THOSE people -- if that means the players, or the owners, or what.  Whatever it is, that's the kind of feeling that will cost us a pro sports team.

I meant it as an all inclusive - flexible statement, speaking both to the political/cultural and the athletic discussion. It ranges from "don't give my money to those (rich athletes/billionaire owners)" to the "I can't believe this guy next to me at the bar just they 'only want to support a white sport.'" Both very real attitudes you were spot on about.

Of course the major problem is Milwaukee still hasn't adjusted to the collapse of the manufacturing industries, suburban flight, etc. I personally can't imagine leaving to live in Waukesha or 'Tosa - but apparently everyone else in the area can. Then again, the lady Gracchus works in 'Tosa and commutes from Milwaukee every day, so I guess we're just backwards from the larger Wisconsin milieu. It's so weird driving around downtown proper - there's nobody there, ever, weekday or weekend, work hours or after work hours. I can't figure out where people are all the damn time! (hiding in their offices and then racing back to Waukesha I guess).


I drive way up to Mequon every day for work.  We are out there.  In many ways, I feel like we (civic-minded Milwaukeeans) are slowly waking up to eachothers' existence.  :P
 
2014-01-07 04:26:00 PM  

IAmRight: /too bad more people didn't go see the Iron; they were a damn good team


The original Mustangs in the 90's drew like crazy, despite never being all that good.

It was silly how they folded, though, and I think the city always felt a little betrayed that the ownership group and our TWO arenas sitting across the street from each other (the Bucks' old building, formerly the MECCA Arena, has been renovated and still stands across the street from the BC) couldn't somehow figure out how to get SOMETHING together to keep the team going, given how well the citizenry came out to watch them.

Then, when the Bonecrushers were a well-publicized failure and the AFL as a whole had its issues ... I think that burst the bubble.
 
2014-01-07 04:31:21 PM  

CmndrFish: I drive way up to Mequon every day for work.  We are out there.  In many ways, I feel like we (civic-minded Milwaukeeans) are slowly waking up to eachothers' existence.  :P


You were already in my list as a favorite, Commander!  I can't favorite you any more!

But yeah.  Hopefully we recapture a little of that old spirit at some point.  We've had it at points in our history.  Under Hoan and Zeidler.  When the Braves came.  Anytime Mayor Meyer sang "Ein Prosit."  We can have it again.  I think there's a want for it from (some of) the people.  You see it in small spurts, when we gather for World Cup matches at The Nomad or when the Brewers give us something to cheer about like in 2011.

It'll come around.  The people & potential are here.  Someone just needs to come along and decide to invest in it.  It might take another decade or two, though.
 
2014-01-07 06:30:50 PM  

IAmRight: MugzyBrown: Oklahoma City, San Antonio, and Indianapolis are now big markets, thanks NBA!

Hell, even Miami isn't a big market. It's just one where some people might want to live.


Maybe it's just me, but it seems like everyone has a different cutoff for "small markets" and there are some cases where the bigger city is more likely to be considered a smaller market.  For example, more people will call the Seattle Mariners a small market team than call the St. Louis Cardinals a small market team even though the Seattle metropolitan area has 50% more people.  Are "small market teams" and "big market teams" just misnomers for popular and unpopular teams, respectively?  Are the big markets just LA, Chicago, Dallas, and the Boston-DC corridor?

IAmRight: I'd like to point out that EVERYONE is. It's not limited to an area. Only a few dedicated idiots love paying a ton of money to watch their team get its ass kicked every week, and they are what we know as Clevelanders. They are to be mocked and scorned, not held up as an ideal to aspire to. If you don't enjoy something, you stop doing it unless you're getting something else out of it that makes the misery bearable.


(Offer not valid for the Cleveland Indians)
 
2014-01-07 07:08:43 PM  

llortcM_yllort: Are "small market teams" and "big market teams" just misnomers for popular and unpopular teams, respectively?


A small-market team is a team that doesn't win and a big-market team is a team that wins.

When a small-market team wins, then it no longer counts as one.

At least that's how most of the arguments tend to go.

Miami's 16th. Indianapolis is 25th. Milwaukee's 35th. San Antonio's 37th. OKC's 45th. New Orleans is 53rd.

But those are the only three below Milwaukee in the NBA that I see, and they're all warmer and SA has big tax benefits plus they're a better organization.
 
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