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(Hardball Talk)   Long overdue: A team named the "Indians" uses a respectful, non-racist logo   (hardballtalk.nbcsports.com) divider line 43
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5608 clicks; posted to Sports » on 07 Jan 2014 at 8:45 AM (38 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



43 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-01-07 01:33:00 AM
nbchardballtalk.files.wordpress.com
Hey, Washington Redskins, it's not so difficult to change.
 
2014-01-07 02:16:59 AM

Principal Clarinet: [nbchardballtalk.files.wordpress.com image 480x349]
Hey, Washington Redskins, it's not so difficult to change.


To be fair, Washington D.C. has no local tribe to consult with on something like that. They were all slaughtered by white people long, long, long ago.
 
2014-01-07 02:27:27 AM

Principal Clarinet: [nbchardballtalk.files.wordpress.com image 480x349]
Hey, Washington Redskins, it's not so difficult to change.


I didn't know the Redskins logo was racist, I thought the argument was about their name. Since we're talking "Indians" and baseball logos why aren't we talking about Chief Wahoo? I know they catch some shiat for it, but proportionally, probably not enough, in my opinion Chief Wahoo is a lot worse than naming a team Redskins.
 
2014-01-07 03:15:33 AM

Principal Clarinet: [nbchardballtalk.files.wordpress.com image 480x349]
Hey, Washington Redskins, it's not so difficult to change.


How?
 
2014-01-07 05:20:17 AM
Suxwr c+sepcin'm? Spoaqin?

It's like a cat walked across the keyboard.

There, I've undone all their hard work and made it racist again.
 
2014-01-07 07:51:48 AM

Principal Clarinet: [nbchardballtalk.files.wordpress.com image 480x349]
Hey, Washington Redskins, it's not so difficult to change.


I wonder how you spell "Redskins" in that language.

/still racist.
 
2014-01-07 08:52:52 AM
But tradition!?!?!?
 
2014-01-07 08:56:01 AM
Look at that, working with people to solve a problem, what a revolutionary concept.
 
2014-01-07 08:58:52 AM

HotWingAgenda: Principal Clarinet: [nbchardballtalk.files.wordpress.com image 480x349]
Hey, Washington Redskins, it's not so difficult to change.

To be fair, Washington D.C. has no local tribe to consult with on something like that. They were all slaughtered by white people long, long, long ago.


Hasn't Snyder been sitting on the Washington Warriors trademark for over a decade?
 
2014-01-07 09:10:02 AM

ongbok: Look at that, working with people to solve a problem, what a revolutionary concept.


That would never happen in D.C. which is why the Redskins ain't gonna change!
 
2014-01-07 09:20:22 AM
Of course the Cleveland Indians, Washington Redskins and other teams with racist overtones to their Native American mascots and logos couldn't possibly do this. It'd be unthinkable. For some reason.

But change is hard.
 
2014-01-07 09:20:25 AM
 
2014-01-07 09:25:10 AM

oi43.tinypic.com


What a respectful, non-racist logo may look like.

 
2014-01-07 09:31:29 AM
It's still racist!
 
2014-01-07 09:33:20 AM

violentsalvation: Principal Clarinet: [nbchardballtalk.files.wordpress.com image 480x349]
Hey, Washington Redskins, it's not so difficult to change.

I didn't know the Redskins logo was racist, I thought the argument was about their name. Since we're talking "Indians" and baseball logos why aren't we talking about Chief Wahoo? I know they catch some shiat for it, but proportionally, probably not enough, in my opinion Chief Wahoo is a lot worse than naming a team Redskins.


I'm guessing that it's mostly because the Indians haven't made the same "never, ever gonna change" comments that Snyder has and they have been quietly and slowly using Chief Wahoo less and less.
 
2014-01-07 09:38:13 AM
Oh look a Chief Wahoo thread immediately turns into a discussion about the 'Skins.

/I wonder what Jerry thinks about this?
 
2014-01-07 09:38:54 AM
I like how FSU uses homosexuality to soften the edges of what could be perceived as a racist logo of their penis sucking Indian.
 
2014-01-07 09:40:32 AM
Doesn't matter, some caucasian Social Justice Warrior will take offense to it
 
2014-01-07 09:47:14 AM

machoprogrammer: Doesn't matter, some caucasian Social Justice Warrior will take offense to it


It's fun to take a position against the most extreme hypothetical opinion in a debate rather than the actual facts at hand.
 
2014-01-07 09:54:15 AM
We should just call every team the 'Baseball players', mandate that all 25 players play at least one full inning, and give everyone trophies at the end of each game. Also, eliminate the playoffs. It might make those players on non-playoff teams sad if they don't get to be in the playoffs, and the teams that lose in the playoffs will be sad too.
 
2014-01-07 09:55:07 AM

machoprogrammer: Doesn't matter, some caucasian Social Justice Warrior will take offense to it


Stick it to the Libs!
 
2014-01-07 09:56:58 AM

violentsalvation: in my opinion Chief Wahoo is a lot worse than naming a team Redskins.


The Cleveland Indians should just change their logo to this guy:

static.giantbomb.com
 
2014-01-07 10:05:20 AM

CipollinaFan: Oh look a Chief Wahoo thread immediately turns into a discussion about the 'Skins.

/I wonder what Jerry thinks about this?


Actually, TFA is about the Spokane Indians new logo (see picture someone posted above) and how the team collaborated with a local tribe to produce it.

The writer brought up Chief Wahoo and the Redskins at the end of the article.
 
2014-01-07 10:37:29 AM

mechgreg: violentsalvation: in my opinion Chief Wahoo is a lot worse than naming a team Redskins.

The Cleveland Indians should just change their logo to this guy:

[static.giantbomb.com image 500x500]


Not offensive enough.

media.tumblr.com
 
2014-01-07 10:40:27 AM

Lost Thought 00: machoprogrammer: Doesn't matter, some caucasian Social Justice Warrior will take offense to it

Stick it to the Libs!


You have no idea what social justice warriors are, do you?

They are the people that take offense to anything they possibly can.
 
2014-01-07 10:49:44 AM

machoprogrammer: Lost Thought 00: machoprogrammer: Doesn't matter, some caucasian Social Justice Warrior will take offense to it

Stick it to the Libs!

You have no idea what social justice warriors are, do you?

They are the people that take offense to anything they possibly can.


"They" sound an awful lot like a figment of your imagination
 
2014-01-07 10:59:02 AM
Is this where I come to see all the white people complain about perceived racism against Native Americans?
 
2014-01-07 11:00:10 AM

Lost Thought 00: machoprogrammer: Lost Thought 00: machoprogrammer: Doesn't matter, some caucasian Social Justice Warrior will take offense to it

Stick it to the Libs!

You have no idea what social justice warriors are, do you?

They are the people that take offense to anything they possibly can.

"They" sound an awful lot like a figment of your imagination


Instead of typing that response, you could've used that thing called google and typed "social justice warrior". Check out the dramatica page. They are all too real.
 
2014-01-07 11:11:31 AM
Should I be offended by someone saying I'm of Celtic dissent because the word is from the Greek word Keltoi, basically meaning barbarous savage? I'm just curious how far back we're going to take this.
 
2014-01-07 11:13:09 AM

machoprogrammer: They are all too real.


So are furries. Doesn't mean I go around being scared of them all the time.
 
2014-01-07 11:18:40 AM

Crewmannumber6: Should I be offended by someone saying I'm of Celtic dissent because the word is from the Greek word Keltoi, basically meaning barbarous savage? I'm just curious how far back we're going to take this.


Pft. Only a  Celtic Gaul would be asking this.
 
2014-01-07 11:33:50 AM

Lost Thought 00: machoprogrammer: They are all too real.

So are furries. Doesn't mean I go around being scared of them all the time.


I didn't say I was scared of them, I said they existed. You said they didn't.
 
2014-01-07 11:39:40 AM

mechgreg: violentsalvation: in my opinion Chief Wahoo is a lot worse than naming a team Redskins.

The Cleveland Indians should just change their logo to this guy:

[static.giantbomb.com image 500x500]


Nope, the NYE Mets are his favorite squadron.

meblogwritegood.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-01-07 11:51:42 AM
You have no idea what social justice warriors are, do you?

They are the people that take offense to anything they possibly can.

"They" sound an awful lot like a figment of your imaginatio



Yeah, cause there are no people like that at all. I, too, imagined the latest crusade to change the name of a sports team
 
2014-01-07 01:32:17 PM

HotWingAgenda: Principal Clarinet: [nbchardballtalk.files.wordpress.com image 480x349]
Hey, Washington Redskins, it's not so difficult to change.

To be fair, Washington D.C. has no local tribe to consult with on something like that. They were all slaughtered by white people long, long, long ago.


give the 'skins shiat for the name if you like, but I defy anyone to tell me that this a racist, non-respectful LOGO:
content.sportslogos.net

Seems awfully similiar to the one the national Championship, Indian tribe -approved Seminoles use:
www.sports-logos-screensavers.com
 
2014-01-07 01:49:20 PM
www.csectioncomics.com
 
2014-01-07 01:54:28 PM
That is one of the stupidest things I have seen and I have been on fark for awhile.
 
2014-01-07 03:30:15 PM
i284.photobucket.com
 
2014-01-07 04:16:29 PM
What a Cleveland Native American may look like, for comparison:
www.imperfectenjoyment.com
 
2014-01-07 06:36:03 PM

Slaxl: Suxwr c+sepcin'm? Spoaqin?

It's like a cat walked across the keyboard.

There, I've undone all their hard work and made it racist again.


Squamish (or, in its original mother tongue, Sḵwxwú7mesh snichim--and yes, "7" IS a letter in Squamish; it denotes a glottal stop usually rendered in other First Nations transcription schemes as an apostrophe) has a really, really, really absurd number of consonants that do not exist in English or really any other common language using Latin writing systems.  (About the only other languages that use as many if not more consonants than Salishan family languages--including Squamish--are a few Caucasian languages and two language families in Namibia spoken among Khoikhoi (indigenous peoples) who make heavy use of click consonants in their language.)

Hell, part of the reason Squamish tends to use "7" to denote a glottal stop (well, besides the orthography being invented before Unicode) is because the apostrophe was ALREADY in use--to denote glottalised consonants.  Yes, the language put a really, really serious hurt on "available diacritics to render the tons and tons of unusual consonants into a Latin orthography"; had the option been around during the days where Squamish orthography had been born on the Internet, there'd be a real case of inventing a full-on non-Latin alphabet for the language.  (As it is, though, the Latin orthography is the standard now and it'd probably be more than a bit of a pain to change over to a new "Squamish script".)

Oh, and for fun--there are actually Salishan languages that are even more problematic to transcribe in a Latin orthography (without going through a substantial portion of all five of the Latin Extended charts in Unicode) than Squamish is.  When fully half to three-fourths of the sounds in a language HAVE no good equivalents in most languages that use a Latin script...or any script at all other than maybe the Georgian alphabet...one deals with things how one can.

It also doesn't help that (historically) transcription and even transliteration of First Nations languages has been...eclectic at best.  Iroquoian languages (actually one of the easier language families to render in Latin characters--they pretty much just have nasal vowels as the primary bit of phonetic difference!) have at least three or four competing transcription and/or transliteration systems, and some of the conventions are...odd; probably the weirdest involve the use of a colon to denote glottal stops in languages of the Iroquois Confederacy proper (as those who've played Assassin's Creed 3 have discovered in running into names rendered in their original Mohawk) and the historical use of "v" to transcribe (and later, transliterate) a common nasalised schwa/mid-central vowel in Cherokee (some more modern transcription/transliteration conventions tend to render it more conventionally; of note, transcription methods for the nasalised vowels in other Iroquoian languages tend to follow more of the "add an ogonek" method of noting this, and at least SOME transliteration schemes for Cherokee use the (more standard) "tilde over a U" method; of course, Cherokee itself has its own indigenously-developed syllabary so the actual language users don't have to worry about it that much).
 
2014-01-07 07:25:30 PM

Slaxl: Suxwr c+sepcin'm? Spoaqin?


This actually uses a weird orthography even for Squamish (almost like a mix of proper Squamish orthography AND IPA or old "Americanist" orthography that was used in pre-IPA days to render sounds in the language).

In the more usual orthography it'd be rendered more like "Spoaqin Suxw Ch'lhsep'tsin7m" (no, it doesn't help much--it works, assuming you speak Squamish, and I can see why they'd use Americanist orthography, but let's just say Salishan languages as a whole don't play well at all with Western orthography).

It also doesn't help that Salishan languages as a whole are rather infamous for both having long-arse strings of consonants (sometimes entire WORDS made of nothing BUT consonants; Nuxálk is pretty infamous for this, having a word in its language comprised of thirteen separate and distinct consonants with nary a vowel to be seen) AND being rather fast and loose with the entire concept of "syllable" as a result of aforementioned long-arse strands of consonants (often glottalised) that would make your average brave thlIngan warrior run in abject terror.

A best attempt to note what the above might sound like--and keep in mind I am mangling the original Squamish horribly-- for Farkers:

"Spo-a-qeen" (with a throatier "q" sound) "Soo(sound like the sound usually rendered in Scottish as "ch" and what actually sounds like "about to cough up a phlegm-gem"...now make the phlegm-gem sound whilst pursing your lips to make a "wh" sound and you basically have it)" "(really really farking empathetic "tshh")-hl-se(say "p" whilst attempting to spit furiously)-tsin-'m"

(Have I mentioned that Latin orthography is really, really horrible at trying to render some of the sounds in Salishan languages yet?)
 
2014-01-07 08:37:08 PM

Great Porn Dragon: Slaxl: Suxwr c+sepcin'm? Spoaqin?

It's like a cat walked across the keyboard.

There, I've undone all their hard work and made it racist again.

Squamish (or, in its original mother tongue, Sḵwxwú7mesh snichim--and yes, "7" IS a letter in Squamish; it denotes a glottal stop usually rendered in other First Nations transcription schemes as an apostrophe) has a really, really, really absurd number of consonants that do not exist in English or really any other common language using Latin writing systems.  (About the only other languages that use as many if not more consonants than Salishan family languages--including Squamish--are a few Caucasian languages and two language families in Namibia spoken among Khoikhoi (indigenous peoples) who make heavy use of click consonants in their language.)

Hell, part of the reason Squamish tends to use "7" to denote a glottal stop (well, besides the orthography being invented before Unicode) is because the apostrophe was ALREADY in use--to denote glottalised consonants.  Yes, the language put a really, really serious hurt on "available diacritics to render the tons and tons of unusual consonants into a Latin orthography"; had the option been around during the days where Squamish orthography had been born on the Internet, there'd be a real case of inventing a full-on non-Latin alphabet for the language.  (As it is, though, the Latin orthography is the standard now and it'd probably be more than a bit of a pain to change over to a new "Squamish script".)

Oh, and for fun--there are actually Salishan languages that are even more problematic to transcribe in a Latin orthography (without going through a substantial portion of all five of the Latin Extended charts in Unicode) than Squamish is.  When fully half to three-fourths of the sounds in a language HAVE no good equivalents in most languages that use a Latin script...or any script at all other than maybe the Georgian alphabet...one deals with things how one can.

It also doesn't hel ...


So when will they sponsor a 43-man Squamish team?
 
2014-01-08 03:33:41 AM
If I recall, native Americans were not on the winning end of much of anything. Why would any sports team want to be associated with losing?
 
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