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(Slate)   A child who grew up unvaccinated because of her parents' hippy lifestyle recalls how much of her youth she spent sick. She doesn't have autism now, though, so there's that   (slate.com) divider line 94
    More: Stupid, autism, innate immune system, Queen Elizabeth I, youths  
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12783 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Jan 2014 at 1:00 PM (36 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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2014-01-06 01:17:01 PM
9 votes:

Why Would I Read the Article: There are children who grew up for thousands of years without vaccinations and did just fine.  Overall, it's pretty clear that vaccinations are better than no vaccinations, but even when we did blatantly stupid things like bloodletting, the human race managed to survive just fine.

And Jenny McCarthy killed more kittens with her 1996 playboy spread than she killed children with her vaccinations nonsense.  Won't anybody please think of the kittens?


No, you freakin' moron, they did not do just fine. They died like flies. Infant mortality in the 19th century was about ten times what it is now, and epidemics used to lay waste whole generations of small children. Just because the population increased doesn't mean everything was hunky dory, it just means humans breed like rabbits. Go visit a Victorian cemetery sometime, and you'll see why people before modern medicine used to refer to the world as "this veil of tears."
2014-01-06 11:57:05 AM
9 votes:
I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet: no sugar till I was 1, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, no MSG, no additives, no aspartame

There is nothing healthy about giving children raw milk.
2014-01-06 01:11:13 PM
8 votes:

stuhayes2010: mediablitz: I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet: no sugar till I was 1, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, no MSG, no additives, no aspartame

There is nothing healthy about giving children raw milk.

You should inform France and Germany where most milk is raw.  Two whole modern countries need your knowledge.


WRONG

Many cheeses are made from raw milk in France.  But the microbes that produce the cheese crowd make the environment unconducive to listeria growth.  The vast majority of milk in France is sold in shelf-stable UHT pasteurized tetra-packs.

There are only a handful of farmers in Germany who are licensed to sell raw milk.
2014-01-06 01:43:37 PM
7 votes:

mbillips: So, the UHT. Does it do less damage to the milk than heating does? Personally, I want everything I eat to be irradiated; the miniscule increase in the amount of radioactivity I'd be exposed to would be WAY offset by the lowered chance of food poisoning (plus, my lettuce wouldn't rot so fast).


??!!

There's no radiation. UHT is heated at an above-boiling temperature for just a couple of seconds (versus the regular pasteurization used here in the US, which is sub-boiling for a longer period of time)

UHT kills everything in the milk, which is why it's shelf-stable for a long time instead of needing to be stored chilled. I don't know if I'd want to drink the stuff. It's the way they do it in Europe I guess. Not popular in the US but it can be found.

Don't drink raw milk. It's full of poop bacteria, because cows poop a lot and get poop everywhere. They are disgustingly filthy animals, and they can get gruesome diseases. If you want healthy bacteria in your milk buy yogurt instead. That's why they make it.

(Source: I grew up on a dairy farm where we regularly received awards from our dairy for the high quality and low bacteria count of our milk. Despite this, we had a home pasteurizer through which all milk for the house was ran. We were never allowed to drink the raw milk. We knew where it came from.)
2014-01-06 01:17:13 PM
6 votes:

Why Would I Read the Article: There are children who grew up for thousands of years without vaccinations and did just fine.  Overall, it's pretty clear that vaccinations are better than no vaccinations, but even when we did blatantly stupid things like bloodletting, the human race managed to survive just fine.



Actually..... no they didn't do fine.   Not at all.    A hundred or two hundred years ago people had very large families of 8-12 kids and were lucky if 4 made it to 20 years old.

When various diseases cruised through a region.... people died in droves.     Especially the children.

Your post might be one of the dumbest of 2014.    And on Fark, that is saying something....
2014-01-06 01:11:09 PM
6 votes:

Why Would I Read the Article: There are children who grew up for thousands of years without vaccinations and did just fine. Overall, it's pretty clear that vaccinations are better than no vaccinations, but even when we did blatantly stupid things like bloodletting, the human race managed to survive just fine.


If by "fine" you mean 250 million people dying of measles in 150 years, sure. We did FINE.
2014-01-06 02:23:45 PM
5 votes:
Excellent article! It's a great example of looking at the results from 'the other side', which is why we developed vaccinations and other medical treatments ages ago.

Your great-grandparents probably had immune systems that were as strong as a battleship -- but all that healthy living tended to shorten their lives and as transportation devices became better and cheaper, they came in contact with more people from far away, who brought with them diseases they hadn't been exposed to.

Herbal stuff is great. It served as the primary medicines for centuries. However, it took scientists and sophisticated equipment to extract and condense the desired substances into pill form so you didn't need to drink a gallon of weak tea for a headache or eat a pound of weeds every 12 hours for bowel problems.

Pasteurization emerged for two primary reasons: food preservation and to stop the spread of disease. I guess the deaths of hundreds of thousands over the years from infected raw milk from healthy cows just isn't enough proof.

Rickets, a disease caused by the lack of Vitamin D which softens the long bones during childhood, causing a kids legs to bow like those of a career cowboys from 100 years ago, was eliminated by the government requiring D to be added to milk. Then they slapped price controls on the stuff for schools to make sure kids could get all of the healthy, calcium rich, Ricketts fighting moo juice dirt cheap.

Within a decade, Ricketts became a disease mainly talked about and probably never seen by the average parent.

No matter how rough and tough and 'natural' a lifestyle you live, there are diseases which you can get easily. Many lurk in that organic, rich soil you walk over, some of which even get into those insecticide free, organically grown, nutritious and delicious veggies you wolf down smugly.

Even most of those 'Survivorman' type shows on TV pause to warn you that some organic things need to be prepared carefully before eating. (Pull off the heads of grasshoppers to extract the guts, then roast before eating because parasites often lurk in them. Cook the krap out of that water plant that Hawaiian poi is made from because it contains an acid that turns the tuber into basically sand-like crystals. Cooking destroys the acid and softens the nutritious flesh. Don't eat the 'greens' of certain healthy veggies -- like carrots -- because they contain a weak poison. The same with the green leafs of potatoes. The original version of Eggplant was poison. Careful breeding made it a safe, tasty veggie.)

In my day, mom's had 'exposure parties', meaning if your kid caught the Measles, other Moms brought their uninfected kids over for a play date, to deliberate infect them to get the disease over with while they were young. The same with what used to be known as 'Yellow Jaundice' a mild form of Hepatitis.

Now, you get a vaccination and don't get the 'joy' of having to suffer though Measles for real.

There's nothing wrong with a healthy lifestyle -- just don't be stupid. Remember, those who were forced to actually live it 150 years ago, tended to die off more quickly. They didn't have the medications we do today.

BTW. Tetanus (Lockjaw) was a danger then. The disease locked your jaws shut and caused other painful muscle spasms. Treatment consisted of the Dr knocking out your front teeth so you could drink liquids or else you'd starve to death before the disease ran its course.

Now, you get a quick, simple vaccination, renewed every decade or so. Much more pleasant than having someone use a hammer, chisel and pliers to knock out your teeth and then having to sip broths between muscle spasms for the next couple of weeks.
2014-01-06 01:19:22 PM
4 votes:
dynomutt:

As to the vaccinations, remember the root of vacc- is "cow", and the vaccines are done to provide "herd effect" immunity.  As such, the mistake the hippies obviously made was sending the kid to public school.  They should have home-schooled the kid, too.

Half-assed hippies, if you ask me...


The reason it's called Vaccine is because the first one created was using the Cow pox virus to innoculate against small pox. Just FYI.
2014-01-06 01:14:58 PM
4 votes:

stuhayes2010: mediablitz: I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet: no sugar till I was 1, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, no MSG, no additives, no aspartame

There is nothing healthy about giving children raw milk.

You should inform France and Germany where most milk is raw.  Two whole modern countries need your knowledge.


I'm going to call you a liar on that, as I seem to recall nearly all the milk I found in France was pasteurized or UHT, and while I can't speak for Germany, the first lie leads me to dis-believe you on the latter claim.
2014-01-06 01:02:48 PM
4 votes:
LAUGHTER OL I have the hatred of those who have desire for causing the disease who you might call the anti vaccinationists but let me tell you this. I do not believe this person. She is saying that she had the contraction of all of these diseases. This is the feces which has removal when impacted in the bull. She did not have these things.

The roommate of me is the bigger person who has laziness and constantly does the blaming on the disorder of the thyroid of she or of Lyme disease or fibrous my algae or the syndrome of the restful legs. Perhaps instead she should just do the exercising. The point of this is not to do the disparagement of the roommate of me because as you all know I try to see these things as the neutral person. No the point of this is to say that I believe someone did some disagnostics of the self of she. She is the anti-thesis of the Jennifer M. McCarthiasm. They both are the idiots.
2014-01-06 04:20:44 PM
3 votes:
1. Kids did not do "just fine" before vaccinations. Many never made it to adulthood. Hell, it's still a tradition in some cultures to have a huge celebration for making it your first birthday

2. "vacc-"guy: Google cowpox
2014-01-06 01:49:33 PM
3 votes:
~~It was only when I took control of those paranoid thoughts and fears about the world around me and became an objective critical thinker that I got well

^This
2014-01-06 01:48:06 PM
3 votes:

Why Would I Read the Article: There are children who grew up for thousands of years without vaccinations and did just fine.  Overall, it's pretty clear that vaccinations are better than no vaccinations, but even when we did blatantly stupid things like bloodletting, the human race managed to survive just fine.

And Jenny McCarthy killed more kittens with her 1996 playboy spread than she killed children with her vaccinations nonsense.  Won't anybody please think of the kittens?


You're either an excellent troll, or a criminally stupid human being.  Either one makes you little more than yak excrement.
2014-01-06 01:28:37 PM
3 votes:

netcentric: Why Would I Read the Article: There are children who grew up for thousands of years without vaccinations and did just fine.  Overall, it's pretty clear that vaccinations are better than no vaccinations, but even when we did blatantly stupid things like bloodletting, the human race managed to survive just fine.


Actually..... no they didn't do fine.   Not at all.    A hundred or two hundred years ago people had very large families of 8-12 kids and were lucky if 4 made it to 20 years old.

When various diseases cruised through a region.... people died in droves.     Especially the children.


This.

For the fun of it, I looked up the numbers:

In the upper-class areas Liverpool England, 1899, 136 newborns out of 1000 would die before they reached the age of one. Working class districts maintained a rate of 274 infant deaths per 1000 births, and impoverished slums had a horrifying 509 infant deaths per 1000. Even as these rates improve towards the end of the Victorian Age, infant mortality remained at over ten times the current rates in industrialized nations. Alexander Finlaison reported that one half of all children of farmers, laborers, artisans, and servants dies before reaching their fifth birthday, compared to one in eleven children of the land owning gentry. (Mitchell, Victorian Britain 142) Children suffered from multiple influenza outbreaks, diphtheria, scarlet fever, measles, whooping cough, polio, tetanus, and typhoid. Merely keeping sanitary was difficult until the later ages of piped water. This combined with the lack of vaccinations for diseases produced an extremely high infant mortality rate in all classes. (Mitchell, Daily Life 192)
2014-01-06 01:25:02 PM
3 votes:

Why Would I Read the Article: There are children who grew up for thousands of years without vaccinations and did just fine.  Overall, it's pretty clear that vaccinations are better than no vaccinations, but even when we did blatantly stupid things like bloodletting, the human race managed to survive just fine.

And Jenny McCarthy killed more kittens with her 1996 playboy spread than she killed children with her vaccinations nonsense.  Won't anybody please think of the kittens?


Well, not the entire human race. Most people died before the age of 4. For thousands of years since we developed agriculture and animal herding and started living communally, humanity's best way to survive against disease was to zerg it with the highest sustainable birth rate we could manage. The body count due to what are now considered easily preventable diseases throughout history is incredible. The reason humanity has persisted to the point that we are today is because each generation boned like crazy and somehow managed to raise a handful of offspring to sexual maturity each.
2014-01-06 01:16:32 PM
3 votes:

mediablitz: Why Would I Read the Article: There are children who grew up for thousands of years without vaccinations and did just fine. Overall, it's pretty clear that vaccinations are better than no vaccinations, but even when we did blatantly stupid things like bloodletting, the human race managed to survive just fine.

If by "fine" you mean 250 million people dying of measles in 150 years, sure. We did FINE.


Yes, but OP was specifically talking about children "who grew up".  Those millions who died don't count, since they didn't grow up.  ...but hey, other than disease causing untold death and suffering, there were no problems -- because nature is always best.
2014-01-06 01:10:39 PM
3 votes:

Why Would I Read the Article: There are children who grew up for thousands of years without vaccinations and did just fine.  Overall, it's pretty clear that vaccinations are better than no vaccinations, but even when we did blatantly stupid things like bloodletting, the human race managed to survive just fine.

And Jenny McCarthy killed more kittens with her 1996 playboy spread than she killed children with her vaccinations nonsense.  Won't anybody please think of the kittens?


Exactly! Infant mortality rate has been unchanged for thousands of years. It would be nice though to go back o the days when you just shipped your weird kid to the asylum and never spoke of it again.
2014-01-06 01:09:14 PM
3 votes:

stuhayes2010: mediablitz: I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet: no sugar till I was 1, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, no MSG, no additives, no aspartame

There is nothing healthy about giving children raw milk.

You should inform France and Germany where most milk is raw.  Two whole modern countries need your knowledge.


I don't need to inform anyone. I can just look at historical fact and the deaths and illnesses directly attributed to raw milk.

I'd add raw milk distribution regulations are so strict in Germany, only 80 farms are allowed to distribute.

Go on with your bad self though! Drink all the raw milk you want.
2014-01-06 11:50:26 PM
2 votes:
Ficoce

Link

Public health measures are credited with much of the recent increase in life expectancy. During the 20th century, the average lifespan in the United States increased by more than 30 years, of which 25 years can be attributed to advances in public health



If you read your history books, you'll note that the average lifespan increased along with medical technologies. In the past, infants accounted for much of the early deaths pretty much for poor understanding of prenatal care, the lack of proper medication for common ailments, lack of proper nutrition (breast feeding isn't sufficient if the mother herself is not properly nourished) lack of proper cleanliness and no vaccinations.

Adults fared the same. They worked hard and even if they ate well, they were susceptible to a host of diseases from the effects of that very work. As we have seen today, even regular, vigorous exercise can bring on joint damage. Repeated motions, such as bending over while working a field, can wear away the cartilage in the spine. Bone fractures not properly set would later generate pain. A shortage of calcium in a diet could lead to weak bones, being outside too long in the hot sun without protective lenses encouraged cataracts, which could not be removed and eventually caused near total blindness which caused problems for the affected in taking care of themselves.

Cataracts, BTW, have been more of a problem for centuries among the elderly than skin cancer.

People were more used to pain since anesthetics were not well developed, that actually gave them a somewhat different attitude than most would have today. That means, various minor injuries or even moderately severe ones might be ignored and left untreated. Plus, when you're used to pain, you tend to be less cautious. Working in a hazardous environment, like, say a machine shop with steam hammers, one might come to expect deafness as part of the cost of plying a trade or having a finger or two mashed off as just part of the job.

Folks now and then ate rare pork, which was infected with a parasite that thorough cooking kills, which then got into their muscles and caused terrible pain. There was no cure for it. They often drank naturally polluted water -- not realizing that the land it came from held large amounts of organic arsenic or that the lead pipes they used poisoned it. Plus, even fresh water wells, open to the air, could collect dead bugs, fungus, bird feces, rodent feces, tadpoles, rotting plant material and anything else which fell in.

Place the outhouse in the wrong site and that bucket of crystal clear, cool, refreshing well water could be teaming with fecal bacteria. You didn't have to place it within 100 feet of the well either, just upstream of the underground water flow.

Familiar with copper pans? Cool, aren't they? Well cooking in copper consistently can give you too much copper in your blood. That's why many were 'tinned' with a layer of tin in the inside. The same with cast iron.

Homes equipped with fireplaces and wood burning stoves tended to be sooty, meaning you got to breath in more of it than you think.

With cleansers still in their infancy, even washing cloths in boiling water would not kill all bacteria transferred to them through blood or waste. Plus, the soaps didn't do that great of a job. Prior to the invention of sanitary napkins, ladies wore a complex harness which held a strip of cloth between their legs. That cloth was dropped in a bucket usually in some private place, then later washed and reused.

Baby diapers -- same thing and you know how much babies like to poop! Your basic antibacterial bleach was not that common decades ago. Just hot water and simple, basic lye soap.

Without immunizations, as populations started living closer and closer together, they spread diseases more easily among themselves. Sewage and garbage disposal was often primitive at best, with the former often being dumped in the nearest river -- which also happened to provide drinking water for the community.

Fifty years ago, no one realized that burning hundreds of worn out tires in dumps put gobs of poisons in the local air, which could then settle down over local crops, to be washed into local soils, absorbed by vegetables and meat animals and then consumed by the locals themselves.

Need I mention lead paint? How about the old practice of taking used motor oil in the hot, dry summer months and using it on dirt roads to 'settle the dust'? Did you know the early cars often did not have an oil pan or pump? They used an 'automatic oiler'. Octopus-like, it sat atop the engine, with tubes running down to all of the areas needing lubrication. You filled it with oil, probably a quart, adjusted the many little valves, and it dripped oil on those areas.

The excess dripped right on out onto the dirt roads. That oil didn't just go away either. It spread out and got into things.

Basically, folks just didn't know the harm, didn't have the education to understand the implications nor the technology to discover it all. Like asbestos was considered the best fireproofing around and safe. They even made floor tiles of it and exterior tiles/shingles as siding. No one realized that adding lead to gasoline as an anti-knock compound would poison hundreds of thousands of people in the long run, even those without gas engines.

I've seen a host of regulations and changes affecting the food, medications, clothing and working environments in the time I've been alive. I've heard of diseases my folks actually saw, but never seen myself nor actually knew of anyone who had caught one.

I recall popular tin toys, flat sheets which were bent by your Dad into the shape of brightly painted buildings -- like gas stations -- with edges razor sharp. I got cut playing with them. They're banned now. Enriched and specially prepared baby foods cut down dramatically on early infant deaths.

Lead solder has been banned from plumbing. Lead pellets have been banned for use in duck hunting and other forms of hunting requiring the use of shotguns. Paregoric -- a wonderful, soothing liquid medication easily available off the drug store counter, has been banned. It was basically liquid opium. I used to have a toy when I was about 10 that melted lead and poured it into steel molds to make 'tin' soldiers. Burned the krap out of myself a lot. It's banned for obvious reasons.

Better foods, better medications, better environments, labor saving devices, better education, better transportation and even better water treatment, all have contributed to extending the average length of life for us.

If your Dad is still alive and was in WW2 (well, maybe your Grandpa) ask him about the STD treatment for soldiers, which actually didn't do much but was painful as heck because they injected it right up your 'P'-hole. Now, you get a shot or take a pill that works.
2014-01-06 09:11:47 PM
2 votes:

Ficoce: George Washington assumed room temperature when he was 67. Thomas Jefferson 83, John Adams 90, Thomas Edison 84, Benjamin Franklin 84.


1) Yes, it was POSSIBLE to live that long.  It just didn't happen often.
2) You're picking people (ignoring Tom Edison, who is late 1800's, which was basically modern and doesn't count towards your point) who are:
a) upper-class (ie: No hard labor for you, and better/more food).
b) got famous in their 30's, 40's, 50's (or in the case of Mr. Franklin, his 70's).

There's a massive selection bias there.  You're picking people who weren't dead of disease at (forty-)five, weren't sickly all their lives, and weren't (as) exposed to the nastiness that was killing people.

/Mind you, it turns out that (from a starting point of our current diets) fat/protein are really good for you, carbs are bad, and the only people who know less than our current doctors are the 'crats in charge of government health policy, but we're a LOT better than we were.
//Among other things, they fixed my eyes.  Couldn't do that 40 years ago, much less 200.
2014-01-06 06:04:26 PM
2 votes:

DrunkWithImpotence: I've never remotely understood the anti-vac logic.   Let's give them the benefit of the doubt here about a small possibility that the vaccine may cause some forms of Autism. (And no, I don't buy that BS 'science' of a second, this is just for the sake of the argument.)

So in that case, I'm a parent and I have to choose.  Do I take an amazingly small risk of giving my kid a difficult but not universally crippling disorder?  Or do I take the much greater risk that my kid could get any number of diseases like measles, polio, smallpox, diphtheria, et cetera?  We've forgotten it over the last couple generations, but as people referencing Victorian cemeteries upthread have pointed out, in a non-vaccinated world these diseases were not rare, they were common, and they either caused horrible things like paralysis, or they just outright killed you.

So seven if the autism argument was valid, I'm still vaccinating.  It would be a responsible calculated risk.


The original claim was that it was the Thimerosal behind the rise in autism. Which was a testable hypothesis. It was tested and it flunked. And it's no longer used anyway. So the anti-vax people are really just being asshats.
2014-01-06 05:57:16 PM
2 votes:
Anti-vaccine nuts aren't just stupid, they're dangerously stupid.  I think all of this "natural" bullsh*t is gaining so much traction now because we have been protected from horrendous and ubiquitous diseases for so long that people have forgotten how terrible it was to have to live in fear of Polio, or worry about your kid dying of whooping cough, before we had things like vaccines and food safety.  Are we going to go back to people dying of the consumption now?  FFS.
2014-01-06 05:10:47 PM
2 votes:

mbillips: So, the UHT. Does it do less damage to the milk than heating does? Personally, I want everything I eat to be irradiated; the miniscule increase in the amount of radioactivity I'd be exposed to would be WAY offset by the lowered chance of food poisoning (plus, my lettuce wouldn't rot so fast).


not even miniscule, zero increase in radiation, food irradiation systems do not use the kind of radiation that leaves things radioactive.
2014-01-06 04:34:53 PM
2 votes:

stuhayes2010: mediablitz: I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet: no sugar till I was 1, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, no MSG, no additives, no aspartame

There is nothing healthy about giving children raw milk.

You should inform France and Germany where most milk is raw.  Two whole modern countries need your knowledge.


Having shopped for and consumed a lot of milk in Germany, I can safely say your statement is crap.
2014-01-06 04:12:39 PM
2 votes:

mbillips: They died like flies. Infant mortality in the 19th century was about ten times what it is now, and epidemics used to lay waste whole generations of small children.


Because few children lived to adulthood, children tended to be treated poorly until the last couple of centuries. They were a bother and they weren't worth investing time in until nearly grown. They were banned from hospitals both because they were carriers and they weren't worth the effort.
2014-01-06 03:46:34 PM
2 votes:
Ultra high temperature pasteurized milk is heated to a temperature that will start caramelizing the sugars which is why is has a slightly sweeter taste and darker color.  I personally don't like the taste of it because I grew up on standard pasteurization.

Minerals are not destroyed by pasteurization.  Most of the vitamins in the milk are pretty heat stable, and the beneficial enzymes that the raw milk people think they're getting are destroyed in your stomach.  Also cow enzymes and horomones won't work in humans because we don't have the correct substrates or receptors for them.  It kills me how many people do not understand these basic tenants of science.
2014-01-06 03:40:02 PM
2 votes:

dynomutt: Bullshiat.  Raw milk is a living food.  Pasteurized milk is just cow piss


The "living" bit is the crux of the problem, when there is a problem. A freshly-laid pile of shiat is "living". as well, but I wouldn't eat it.
2014-01-06 03:38:20 PM
2 votes:
Time for my fave site!

http://thanatos.net/

Look at all those little kids, sound asleep in their coffins.

It's a Victorian post-mortem photography site. This might be the only picture of the child, so it was 'the last look'. Kids were made up to look like they were asleep. A few were posed with their eyes open, so they'd look alert and awake.

And you know what killed most of them? Measles, diptheria, whooping cough...the same things we vaccinate for today.
2014-01-06 02:55:51 PM
2 votes:

Rik01: ...
Herbal stuff is great. It served as the primary medicines for centuries. However, it took scientists and sophisticated equipment to extract and condense the desired substances into pill form so you didn't need to drink a gallon of weak tea for a headache or eat a pound of weeds every 12 hours for bowel problems....


Farking A this.

I swear this is a constant conversation I am having with mothers my wife knows (why is it always the mom?  Do Dads also have similar anti-vaxxer medi-quack desires?  Do they not speak up? Always wondered that...)

It gets really old when they say that all these medications came from plants anyway so eating the plants must be better because organic.  When I reply with exactly what you say above the reaction is usually a swift subject change.

Same with vitamins, only this goes the other direction.  I don't understand how people can think that vitamins are a bottomless fountain of healthy living.  Any more than one multivitamin a day for the vast majority of people creates nothing but expensive urine.  Nothing.  All those dietary supplements in the vast majority of cases (except like, Iron when your pregnant or other unique individual cases) do exactly jack + squat added together.

Its really infuriating how fast people will discard decades of some of the most proven and validated aspects of modern medicine because they went to some damn talk and a random guy with glasses who sounded smart said that XYZ is bad/good for you.

Read people.  For the sake of your kids, learn how to discern good/bad information and bloody read.
2014-01-06 02:50:30 PM
2 votes:
Awesome article about the move to pasteurized milk in Toronto:

http://torontoist.com/2013/11/historicist-if-its-city-dairy-its-clea n- and-pure-thats-sure/

although I suppose it could be seen more generally as an article about the value of proper government oversight.
2014-01-06 02:31:08 PM
2 votes:
So this is the first widely-published article from someone whose parents were anti-vaxxers, and predictably it's "I didn't get the shots, I got sick and it was awful." I hope more people with similar stories speak out. As she said, statistics and hard science aren't persuading anti-vaxxers, so maybe stories like hers will.
2014-01-06 01:49:37 PM
2 votes:

dynomutt: Bullshiat. Raw milk is a living food.


Chock full of that ever important and wholesome élan vital, amirite?

Pasteurized milk is just cow piss.

Actually, if we wanted to be really accurate, it would be cow sweat.
2014-01-06 01:34:58 PM
2 votes:

mbillips: So, the UHT. Does it do less damage to the milk than heating does? Personally, I want everything I eat to be irradiated; the miniscule increase in the amount of radioactivity I'd be exposed to would be WAY offset by the lowered chance of food poisoning (plus, my lettuce wouldn't rot so fast).


UHT stands for Ultra High Temperature processing, so.. your question doesn't really make sense. Irradiated is cool, but being too "Clean" could leave your immune system a bit vulnerable if done for too long/from childhood.
2014-01-06 01:24:34 PM
2 votes:

Why Would I Read the Article: There are children who grew up for thousands of years without __________ and did just fine.


clean water
seat belts
modern hygiene
working sewer systems
basic dental care
basic neo-natal care
basic nutrition

You're right. In fact, you're right no matter which of those things we substitute into your original comment.

Of course, that's not really the point since we're worried about those kid's 5-6 brothers and sisters that died before the age of 5 of now-preventable illness.

Some of us have this wild notion that maybe the goal of our modern society ought to be set just a little higher than making sure at least one offspring per family reaches child-bearing age. We're crazy assholes like that, you know.
2014-01-06 01:23:19 PM
2 votes:

kvinesknows: and even with all that nurturing by her loving parents... she is still a  slut.

in her 20s.. two kids under 7 AND catches HPV?

close your farkin legs.


Jealous? BTW, nearly everyone who has ever had sex is infected with HPV. Most of us are asymptomatic, but you generally catch it first time out of the box (so to speak).
2014-01-06 01:18:21 PM
2 votes:

Why Would I Read the Article: There are children who grew up for thousands of years without vaccinations and did just fine. Overall, it's pretty clear that vaccinations are better than no vaccinations, but even when we did blatantly stupid things like bloodletting, the human race managed to survive just fine.


With women being baby factories, having to pump out a ton of them because many would die.
2014-01-06 01:17:27 PM
2 votes:
Oh man... antivax, raw milk, veganism and now RLS...

i48.photobucket.com
2014-01-06 01:12:54 PM
2 votes:

mediablitz: I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet: no sugar till I was 1, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, no MSG, no additives, no aspartame

There is nothing healthy about giving children raw milk.


There's nothing unhealthy about it, as long as you get it straight from a hand-milked cow that sees the vet regularly, refrigerate it immediately, and drink it within a week (or buy it from someone who does all that). Pasteurization is required because of the way commercially produced milk is gathered, transported and stored. Bad germs lurk in milking machines, not in a tin bucket that you wash in hot water and detergent before every use.

/Grew up on raw milk because we had a milk cow.
//Pasteurization is generally a good idea, but it destroys some vitamins, minerals and beneficial bacteria in the milk.
///Would never buy raw milk from strangers.
2014-01-06 01:06:04 PM
2 votes:
MstD, I keep reading you comments, but they make no sense to me.
2014-01-06 12:16:41 PM
2 votes:
We ate (organic local) meat maybe once or twice a week,

Before all the haters show up... I just wanted to point out that at least these people weren't vegans.
2014-01-07 02:35:58 PM
1 votes:
The following video gives one of the best arguments with regards to vaccinations:
b.vimeocdn.com
2014-01-07 02:34:11 PM
1 votes:

untaken_name: The FDA permits the presence of up to 20,000 bacteria /ml and 10 E.coli/ml in milk after the pasteurization process has been completed. That means pasteurization is not perfect.


It doesn't mean that at all. Pasteurization is not sterilization so the goal is not, has never been and never will be the complete elimination of living microorganisms from the product. You would be hard-pressed to have made a less accurate statement.

untaken_name: http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/10/5/03-0484_article.htm


External contamination from improper handling has absolutely nothing to do with pasteurization.

untaken_name: http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2013/05/wa-dairy-recalls-improperly-pa st eurized-products/


Improper application of the process has nothing to do with pasteurization. If the process was not completed correctly, pasteurization did not occur in the first place.

untaken_name: Here is a list of pasteurized milk food illness outbreaks


From "realrawmilkfacts.com" no less. How.... truthy.

No matter, the CDC maintains its own data which is easily accessible. I'll just assume your source isn't a bunch of unrepentant liars and simply collected and re-presented THAT data and use it directly instead.

All incidences of outbreak involving pasteurized milk for which a cause was found were the result of either improper handling or storage by a shipper, producer, processor or consumer or the result of incorrect application of the pasteurization process.

There has literally never been an outbreak of illness involving a properly processed, shipped, stored and prepared milk product. Ever. In all of eternity.

You should really be embarrassed for being so transparently dishonest, though I seriously doubt you're capable of feeling shame.
2014-01-07 12:22:42 PM
1 votes:

untaken_name: The FDA permits the presence of up to 20,000 bacteria /ml and 10  E.coli/ml in milk after the pasteurization process has been completed. That means pasteurization is not perfect. Of course, I'm sure you'll insult the FDA for not agreeing with you, too.


They also allow a certain percentage of bug parts, dirt, stones, and whatnot. Doesn't mean that those things are actually there. The FDA sets allowable levels for all sorts of things that they think are safe.

untaken_name: Here is a list of pasteurized milk food illness outbreaks:  http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/PDFs/pasteurized-dairy-outbreak-table . pdf


So all of 9 outbreaks for liquid milk "sold as pasteurized", (meaning many of those cases could be cases where things were improperly pasteurized), over more than a decade. 9 batches. The US drank 6 billion gallons of milk in 2011 (probably more recent numbers, but that one popped up quickly) which was at the time, a record per capita low (less people eating breakfasts at home these days). And you found all of 9 outbreaks in 12 years. Do you realize just how amazingly GOOD a percentage that is?

Of course nothing is absolutely perfect. But pasteurization is near to it. It's unquestionably one of the most effective food treatments we have.
2014-01-07 08:03:36 AM
1 votes:

Why Would I Read the Article: There are children who grew up for thousands of years without vaccinations and did just fine.


You do realize that until the 20th century infant mortality rates were sky high and most people born died before they reached age 12. If you made it past your 5th birthday you had pretty good odds of making it to your mid 60s but your chances of getting through the first few years of your life were pretty slim.

Go take a walk in an old grave yard and look at the family plots from the 19th century. You'll see a lot of graves simply marked "baby boy" or "baby girl" because it was seen as inviting misfortune to name your child before its first year because the odds were against it. You will see married couples who had half a dozen children who died before they had one who made it past its fifth year.
2014-01-07 12:17:47 AM
1 votes:
Something tells me people didn't finish the article because of all the comments. She finishes saying her mother was stupid and vaccinating children is important, because all those preventable illnesses she had as a child is something she doesn't want her children to have.

/Stupid tag should be replaced by hero tag.
// Jenny Mccarthy can suck it.
2014-01-06 11:26:42 PM
1 votes:
Those choosing not to vaccinate aren't just endangering their own children's lives, but the lives of the immunocompromised who can't get the shots or don't respond to them. (Such as the elderly, those with cancer, the very young, ect.) I have a primary immune deficiency, and do not respond to the shots. I rely on herd immunity to keep me safe. I've already nearly died from a whooping cough outbreak when I was 13 due to people not vaccinating their children.  
 
You can choose not to vaccinate-but YOU and only YOU are responsible for those lives lost in the resulting outbreaks. Those lives are on your head. Actions have consequences. You have to live with those consequences-including any resulting criminal charges. Because if I die from a preventable disease that can be traced back to your unvaccinated little snowflake, be prepared to have manslaughter charges brought against you by my remaining family.
2014-01-06 09:56:19 PM
1 votes:

LavenderWolf: Millennium: dynomutt: Bullshiat. Raw milk is a living food.

Chock full of that ever important and wholesome élan vital, amirite?

Pasteurized milk is just cow piss.

Actually, if we wanted to be really accurate, it would be cow sweat.

No, it's milk, heated and cooled. FYI all the fluid in milk comes from blood plasma, so, if you drink any milk at all you're drinking blood.


Milk is produced by modified sweat glands.  So, I guess you could use the same reasoning to argue that mammals sweat blood.
2014-01-06 09:27:09 PM
1 votes:

Ficoce: FrancoFile: Ficoce: draypresct: FrancoFile: Ficoce:

Like I said, we are now better at keeping kids alive past birth.

http://www.livescience.com/10569-human-lifespans-constant-2-000-year s. html


You never got science or statistics, did you?
2014-01-06 09:18:53 PM
1 votes:

Ficoce: FrancoFile: Ficoce: draypresct: FrancoFile: Ficoce:

Like I said, we are now better at keeping kids alive past birth.

http://www.livescience.com/10569-human-lifespans-constant-2-000-year s. html


That article proves nothing.

The oldest a human being got in antiquity was 70 or 80 or 90.
And the oldest a human being gets today is 70 or 80 or 90.
But the proportion of human beings who live to that age is higher now than ever.

You're as bad as the late, lamented QA.
2014-01-06 09:02:30 PM
1 votes:

Ficoce: Interesting,isn't it?


More people live longer than ever before in our horrible, polluted modern world, chemical infested, radiation-leaking modern world. Could we do better? Hell yes.

Was there a golden age? Is medicine all lies? No, you're farking crazy.
2014-01-06 08:59:29 PM
1 votes:

Ficoce: draypresct: FrancoFile: Ficoce: Even most of those 'Survivorman' type shows on TV pause to warn you that some organic things need to be prepared carefully before eating. (Pull off the heads of grass ...

I need a reference where people died off earlier 150 years ago. Infants died more, but most adults lived as long, or longer than we do now. Now we suffer from working so hard to keeps the kids alive. Not only that, we haven't cured anything - unless you take an inoculation, that do have side effects, you're still in the dark ages. In a way we are worse off now. 150 years ago there wasn't world wide nuclear radiation and chemicals in everything they ate. Even tobacco was all natural and although not harmless, fairly harmless. They started using chemical pesticides like DDT in the late 30's. By the 50's the correlation between smoking and cancer just fell in their laps? What about the correlation between pesticides and cancer?

Our kid aren't healthier now, just have a better chance of living past birth.

Nonsense

a) there are cohort morbidity studies you can find in 5 minutes of searching on the NIH.
b) there's such a thing as quality of life.

Very true.

Life expectancy of 20 year-olds went from 40 years in 1850 to 50 years in the 1950s to 57 years recently.

Interesting,isn't it?

Yeah, a lot of people died of disease, too much coal smoke, etc, but if they took care of themselves they lasted awhile.

George Washington assumed room temperature when he was 67. Thomas Jefferson 83, John Adams 90, Thomas Edison 84, Benjamin Franklin 84.

These guys weren't health nuts. They smoked and drank, ate red meat with lard based gravy all the time. Why didn't they die when they were 50? It's hard to think that they were healthier back then, because we've been programmed to blame lifestyle choices for short life expectancy, when it's really just the man made environment around us. Look at how many nuclear bomb tests have been conducted. Look at the pesticides and chemicals thr ...


Seriously, you're insane.  We just quoted statistics that disproved your point, and you went right on past without blinking.

Those people you listed were wealthy and had the absolute best medical care available at the time.

85% of the average radiation dose comes from natural sources.  Almost all of the rest comes from medical X-rays.
2014-01-06 07:48:54 PM
1 votes:
I have a "friend" who is a middle-aged Catholic mother of four that is paranoid about vaccinating her kids.  She tried to get a waiver from the private school she sends her kids to, but since the Diocese will not allow unvaccinated kids to attend any private Catholic school in her area, her only choice is to home-school.   When I questioned her vaccination paranoia she responded "I have suspicions that I may have an autoimmune problem. In that case, it would of been inherited from my mother and I could of passed it on to my children. No one with an compromised immune system should receive vaccinations. " She is paranoid of vaccinations because her mother has "autoimmunce problems", when reality tells us that her mother is a depressed, suicidal, drug-abusing alcoholic.  Her husband is a massage therapist who sells all kinds of bullshiate medications on Ebay and is always whining because health insurance (and now, ACA) does not cover massage therapy, he also plays in a band and is gone far away from home a lot of the time.  She will fail her children if she elects to home school them, because she is a narcist who is always going on no-pay or low-pay "modeling shoots", complains about being tired all the time, and gets "no support from her family".  I feel really bad for all her kids.
2014-01-06 07:02:42 PM
1 votes:

Ficoce: I need a reference where people died off earlier 150 years ago. Infants died more, but most adults lived as long, or longer than we do now. Now we suffer from working so hard to keeps the kids alive. Not only that, we haven't cured anything - unless you take an inoculation, that do have side effects, you're still in the dark ages. In a way we are worse off now. 150 years ago there wasn't world wide nuclear radiation and chemicals in everything they ate. Even tobacco was all natural and although not harmless, fairly harmless. They started using chemical pesticides like DDT in the late 30's. By the 50's the correlation between smoking and cancer just fell in their laps? What about the correlation between pesticides and cancer?

Our kid aren't healthier now, just have a better chance of living past birth.


Holy crap... You aren't a bright one, are you?

Kids 150 years ago died not only more often in birth but during childhood as well. Polio, measles, mumps, etc... can be very dead, especially for children and the elderly.

And tobacco has always been bad and its cancer rate has jack squat to do with DDT and is due to the carcinogens in the smoke and tobacco.
2014-01-06 06:14:33 PM
1 votes:

Ficoce: I need a reference where people died off earlier 150 years ago. Infants died more, but most adults lived as long, or longer than we do now. Now we suffer from working so hard to keeps the kids alive. Not only that, we haven't cured anything - unless you take an inoculation, that do have side effects, you're still in the dark ages. In a way we are worse off now. 150 years ago there wasn't world wide nuclear radiation and chemicals in everything they ate. Even tobacco was all natural and although not harmless, fairly harmless. They started using chemical pesticides like DDT in the late 30's. By the 50's the correlation between smoking and cancer just fell in their laps? What about the correlation between pesticides and cancer?

Our kid aren't healthier now, just have a better chance of living past birth.


I'm a longtime lurker here on Fark, but congrats on writing a post that literally took me aback with its crazy.  Wow.
2014-01-06 05:35:18 PM
1 votes:
I've never remotely understood the anti-vac logic.   Let's give them the benefit of the doubt here about a small possibility that the vaccine may cause some forms of Autism. (And no, I don't buy that BS 'science' of a second, this is just for the sake of the argument.)

So in that case, I'm a parent and I have to choose.  Do I take an amazingly small risk of giving my kid a difficult but not universally crippling disorder?  Or do I take the much greater risk that my kid could get any number of diseases like measles, polio, smallpox, diphtheria, et cetera?  We've forgotten it over the last couple generations, but as people referencing Victorian cemeteries upthread have pointed out, in a non-vaccinated world these diseases were not rare, they were common, and they either caused horrible things like paralysis, or they just outright killed you.

So seven if the autism argument was valid, I'm still vaccinating.  It would be a responsible calculated risk.
2014-01-06 05:13:59 PM
1 votes:

mbillips: pdieten: mbillips: So, the UHT. Does it do less damage to the milk than heating does? Personally, I want everything I eat to be irradiated; the miniscule increase in the amount of radioactivity I'd be exposed to would be WAY offset by the lowered chance of food poisoning (plus, my lettuce wouldn't rot so fast).

??!!

There's no radiation. UHT is heated at an above-boiling temperature for just a couple of seconds (versus the regular pasteurization used here in the US, which is sub-boiling for a longer period of time)

UHT kills everything in the milk, which is why it's shelf-stable for a long time instead of needing to be stored chilled. I don't know if I'd want to drink the stuff. It's the way they do it in Europe I guess. Not popular in the US but it can be found.

Don't drink raw milk. It's full of poop bacteria, because cows poop a lot and get poop everywhere. They are disgustingly filthy animals, and they can get gruesome diseases. If you want healthy bacteria in your milk buy yogurt instead. That's why they make it.

(Source: I grew up on a dairy farm where we regularly received awards from our dairy for the high quality and low bacteria count of our milk. Despite this, we had a home pasteurizer through which all milk for the house was ran. We were never allowed to drink the raw milk. We knew where it came from.)

Commercial dairy cows are filthy, constantly wading around in muck and poop, but our milk cow lived in a large, grassy field with a handful of horses, goats, pigs and beef cattle, and was brought into a milking stall with a floor covered in straw. She wasn't visibly dirty, and we always washed off her udder with hot, soapy water before we milked her. And we filtered it through cheesecloth before putting it in the fridge (mostly to get the hair out). Drinking that milk wasn't any riskier than breast feeding (people have fecal coliform bacteria all over their skin, too).

Germaphobes aren't much more rational than anti-vaxxers. You've got an immune system for a reason. Food poisoning is almost always the result of spoilage, not exposure to a few bacteria that aren't allowed to multiply. You get listeria in milk because it's very difficult to completely sterilize a milking machine, not from a microscopic fragment of cow poop.


It's very easy to sterilize a milking machine. You add a sterilization system to your milking apparatus, you run it after every session, and you sterilize the bulk tank after the milkman comes.
That aside there are many vectors via which pathogens can enter milk, of which the cow is one. This is a natural secretion of an animal, and many things that affect that animal can show up in the milk. It is well known that raw milk is full of campylobacter, e.coli and other fecal bacteria. It is really not clear to me what value there is in not putting some effort into removing that. There are less unpleasant ways of getting healthy bacteria than drinking pathogen-infected milk.
2014-01-06 05:09:32 PM
1 votes:

KatjaMouse: Also what parents still think it's a good idea to have "Chickenpox Parties" in lieu of of the vaccination? Do they not know how shingles develop?


The vaccination, or at least the early form of it, wore off after a while, leaving you vulnerable to Chicken Pox as an adult, when it's far more potent and dangerous. I think that's fixed now, but remember, chicken pox parties were essentially a form of vaccination. I went to one and had it as a kid, and I'm not that old. You get it once and you're done, except for the relatively rare cases of shingles (at the time- incidence has been increasing pretty notably in the last few decades for whatever reason*) where it flames up later in life. If you tried to avoid it and got it as an adult, it could be deadly. You can also get the chickenpox as a kid, and still get the vaccine later to prevent shingles, and since you usually get Shingles in your old age, if you get chicken pox the old fashioned way you still have 60 years to figure out whether you want to risk Shingles or get the vaccine.

Look, I'm fine going after the anti-vaxxers, but the Chicken Pox vaccine is not the one you want to hang your hat on. The old fashioned way of handling that was perfectly serviceable, and it was actually a better and safer course during the early days of the vaccine. Don't worry about the kids who got that early vaccine though- there was a follow up booster shot that went around.

*It actually had been thought by many to be attributable to the Chicken Pox vaccine, but there's been some recent research showing that the increase began before the vaccine was introduced. So now we're back to where medical science responds with a shrug and a, "damned if I know".
2014-01-06 04:38:22 PM
1 votes:
Also what parents still think it's a good idea to have "Chickenpox Parties" in lieu of of the vaccination? Do they not know how shingles develop?
2014-01-06 04:34:28 PM
1 votes:
Give it a decade. Polio will make a come back this side of the Atlantic and we'll all be saying "I told ya so" from our iron lungs.

But I'm glad this woman is getting her kids vacced up.
2014-01-06 04:28:40 PM
1 votes:
As already posted way up the thread; go visit a Victorian era cemetery sometime. See how many kids under the age of 4 or 5 are buried. LOTS of them. I know because I have ancestors buried in some and others on homesteaded lands 200 years ago that I've visited. In lieu of a newspaper obit, often I would see the cause of death chiseled into the headstones. Diptheria....measles...fever.... In some cases around the world, bodies were put in mass graves and burned, although I don't know of anyone I'm related to over history as having been subject to that.

People had tons of children to keep the family lines going and for farm help. Or future Union soldiers. Or a myriad of other reasons. The anti-vax folks drive me up the wall. Case in point; at an old family cemetery in Nor CA, there's a couple relatives of mine that both died within days of each other at 2 years old from diptheria in the 1870s. Tuberculosis and pertussis was pretty rampant at the time there too. Now I'm not going to blame the AV-ers directly, as they'll just be victims, but for whatever reason those childhood diseases are still swirling around. And guess who gets sick? They do. In fact one documented case of a child with whooping cough that sent a small panic around was a friend of my GF who is very vocal anti-vaxxer. That kid missed half of the school year due to various illnesses. And that damn woman is STILL against vaccines (the school has since kicked the kid out due to not having a vaccination record).

Not only does vaccination help insure that your kid lives if they contract something or another, it helps with other diseases that come about from things such as injuries from farm and building equipment or various wars or just doing basic life operations. Animal bites and stings is another entry method. Poorly cooked or raw food. That's something relatives from centuries past have had to deal with. I have a cousin that almost didn't make it from a rattlesnake bite 30 years ago. Having a vaccine ready at a rural clinic (the county sheriff had to deliver it from another hospital) kept him breathing as it was a 2 hour drive to the closest clinic. Just another example from personal experiences.

If you want to have a more agrarian, simplistic lifestyle, have at it if that makes you happy and healthy. We can all strive to be healthier or at least learn to moderate. But as another poster said: don't be stupid. And I'll add to that, don't get in my face and argue with me about it either. That's also unhealthy.  If your unvaccinated child gets another sick because of your choice, then you deserve what's coming to you from that pissed off parent.
2014-01-06 04:14:16 PM
1 votes:
There's nothing unhealthy about it, as long as you get it straight from a hand-milked cow that sees the vet regularly, refrigerate it immediately, and drink it within a week (or buy it from someone who does all that). Pasteurization is required because of the way commercially produced milk is gathered, transported and stored. Bad germs lurk in milking machines, not in a tin bucket that you wash in hot water and detergent before every use.

They can do all that, and kids still have horrible problems with it, like total kidney failure. In WA/OR last year there were a bunch of kids that got whacked by raw milk. The producers did all that and more.

<shrug>

Not worth it, IMO. But if you're willing to live with giving your kids a lifetime of problems for little to no benefit, go for it.
2014-01-06 03:51:54 PM
1 votes:
Drink up raw milkers.

I'm certain the cow it came from didn't have tuberculosis.

That farmer was obviously a doctor, who tested the cow for disease in his laboratory before giving it to you.


Smokers, you should increase your intake by 3 packs a day.
 

E-Cigs, try not to think that the nicotine came from bulk insecticide being re purposed because the synthetic became cheaper. It's regulated and tested not to kill you, and certainly not motivated by profit and people who don't care about your health. Smoke as much as you can. You should really switch to real cigarettes.

Don't get vaccinated.

Organic usually doesn't mean it was recently covered in feces, sometimes human. But that's OK because it is traditional oriental farming.
2014-01-06 03:43:06 PM
1 votes:
All the anti vaxxer parents oddly enough had all their shots and grew up healthy, they just decided they would be "better" people if they raised kids as if they were in the middle ages.
2014-01-06 02:59:00 PM
1 votes:

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: breastfed for over a year

[media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com image 634x834]


...Uh, over a year is  not that long. WHO recommends continuing breastfeeding until about age two, although children tend to self-wean when they're ready, anywhere from six months to two years old.
2014-01-06 02:46:32 PM
1 votes:

Astorix: mediablitz: I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet: no sugar till I was 1, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, no MSG, no additives, no aspartame

There is nothing healthy about giving children rayou'reyou're

You're right about that. I grew up on a dairy farm, worked for a dairy. Before the milk comes in to be processed, it has to be tested for bacteria levels. Too much bacteria and pathogens, it gets rejected. There are lots of pathogens in raw milk.

Pasteurization came in for a reason!


Industrial processes don't generally become common knowledge among the general public, much less than that do their inventors become household names and hailed as heroes.

That Louis Pasteur's discovery of what we call Pasteurisation did both of those things is a pretty strong testament to how much of an impact his discovery had and how dangerous the act of drinking milk was before it.

/That, and the rabies vaccine
//Pasteur was tha bawss
2014-01-06 02:42:06 PM
1 votes:

phaseolus: Assuming for the sake of argument that the anti-microbial properties of silver are everything you claim them to be, please explain how doing this would sanitize the milk. It seems to me that the only thing you'd be guaranteed to have is a pathogen-free quarter after you've removed it from the milk. Wouldn't you have to ensure that every bacterium floating in the bottle comes into contact with the surface of the coin? How would you accomplish that?


Actually, there is something to this one. It's called the oligodynamic effect, and it's why, for example, most doorknobs are made of brass (silver works better, but is more expensive). Metals like this are often used in filters for, for example, swimming pools, and the water tanks on ships and airplanes are often silvered too. That much has been documented for quite some time.

However, it is not magic. To effectively sanitize a container, your silver needs to have enough surface area, which is proportional to the size of the container and the amount of liquid in it. Unless you're willing to wait a really long time, you also need some way to circulate the liquid you're trying to sanitize. I'm not sure a silver quarter would be enough to sanitize a container of milk, and even if it were, you'd have to shake it up pretty strongly if you wanted to do it in a decent amount of time.
2014-01-06 02:41:27 PM
1 votes:

Mambo Bananapatch: Why Would I Read the Article: There are children who grew up for thousands of years without vaccinations and did just fine.  Overall, it's pretty clear that vaccinations are better than no vaccinations, but even when we did blatantly stupid things like bloodletting, the human race managed to survive just fine.

And Jenny McCarthy killed more kittens with her 1996 playboy spread than she killed children with her vaccinations nonsense.

Really? Do you mean that many people who saw her spread became uncontrollably aroused and had intercourse with the only handy, you know, thing -- a kitten, as it turned out -- and killed them by accident?  Because I can assure you nothing like that happened to me.


you sound new to the internet, check out the meme :)

https://www.google.com/search?q=everytime+you+masturbate+god+kills+a+ k itten&oq=every+time+you+m&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.4526j0j8&sourceid=chr ome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8">https://www.google.com/search?q=every time+you+masturbate+god+kills+a+k itten&oq=every+time+you+m&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.4526j0j8&sourceid=chr ome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8
2014-01-06 02:19:03 PM
1 votes:

dynomutt: Drop a washed pre-1965 quarter into the milk bottle. 90% Silver is anti-microbial.



Assuming for the sake of argument that the anti-microbial properties of silver are everything you claim them to be, please explain how doing this would sanitize the milk. It seems to me that the only thing you'd be guaranteed to have is a pathogen-free quarter after you've removed it from the milk. Wouldn't you have to ensure that every bacterium floating in the bottle comes into contact with the surface of the coin? How would you accomplish that?

Failing that, please admit you're trolling.
2014-01-06 02:09:21 PM
1 votes:
mbillips:  people before modern medicine used to refer to the world as "this veil of tears."

Vale.   Vale of tears.
2014-01-06 01:59:43 PM
1 votes:

The Envoy: mediablitz: I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet: no sugar till I was 1, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, no MSG, no additives, no aspartame

There is nothing healthy about giving children raw milk.

THIS.  My wife is friends with a couple who give their little boy raw milk and also, get this, raw liver.  farking new-age tossers, the pair of them.


Raw liver.

Your wife's friends are going to be burying their child if they keep that up.
2014-01-06 01:56:40 PM
1 votes:

rustypouch: Most liquid mild in France sold in grocery stores is UHT pasteurized, sitting at room temperature in tetra paks (or the European equivalent).


Uh, the European equivalent of Tetra Pak is... Tetra Pak.

Swedish company.
2014-01-06 01:49:34 PM
1 votes:

Why Would I Read the Article: There are children who grew up for thousands of years without vaccinations and did just fine.  Overall, it's pretty clear that vaccinations are better than no vaccinations, but even when we did blatantly stupid things like bloodletting, the human race managed to survive just fine.

And Jenny McCarthy killed more kittens with her 1996 playboy spread than she killed children with her vaccinations nonsense.  Won't anybody please think of the kittens?


Its not about the survival of the human race its about it thriving.
2014-01-06 01:40:09 PM
1 votes:

Why Would I Read the Article: There are children who grew up for thousands of years without vaccinations and did just fine.  Overall, it's pretty clear that vaccinations are better than no vaccinations, but even when we did blatantly stupid things like bloodletting, the human race managed to survive just fine.

And Jenny McCarthy killed more kittens with her 1996 playboy spread than she killed children with her vaccinations nonsense.  Won't anybody please think of the kittens?


1/10

The bloodletting comment was a dead giveaway.
2014-01-06 01:39:07 PM
1 votes:

mbillips: Jealous? BTW, nearly everyone who has ever had sex is infected with HPV. Most of us are asymptomatic, but you generally catch it first time out of the box (so to speak).


The vaccine is only suggested for youngsters, so the older folk can't get vaccinated to prevent it.
2014-01-06 01:39:05 PM
1 votes:

The Voice of Doom: As a German: "LOL WUT?"
I would be very surprised to find milk which hasn't been pasteurized in our grocery stores


LAUGHTER OL how does one who is the speaker of the German language say owned because stuhayes2010 just had this occurrence!
2014-01-06 01:33:38 PM
1 votes:
I'd like to see the argument between a "raw milk" nut and a "drinking milk is unnatural" nut.

There's nothing I'm more grateful for than living in an age and country where we have good drugs, effective vaccines, and plentiful safe food. Also having a job that provides excellent healthcare since I can't rely on being able to just go to a doctor because "socialism and terrorists" or something.
2014-01-06 01:33:16 PM
1 votes:
I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet:no sugar till I was 1, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, ...

Annnnndd I nearly stopped reading there.  If you were drinking raw milk you were NOT on an incredibly healthy diet.

stuhayes2010: mediablitz: I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet: no sugar till I was 1, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, no MSG, no additives, no aspartame

There is nothing healthy about giving children raw milk.

You should inform France and Germany where most milk is raw.  Two whole modern countries need your knowledge.


Guys, keep in mind stu here also believes wifi networks cause cancer.  He's either insane or a troll.
2014-01-06 01:32:12 PM
1 votes:

kvinesknows: AND catches HPV


Approximately 1/4 of the U.S. population has some form of HPV at any given point in time and approximately 3/4 of all sexually active people will contract one type of HPV or another at least once in their life.

As for the kids, interesting judgement. In her 20s with two kids under 7 could easily mean she had twins at 23. Or two children starting at 21 or 22. Certainly not unusual by historical standards by any stretch of the imagination and not unusual even by modern, later-child-birthing standards.

Your smug sense of superiority is supported exclusively by your ignorance. How utterly pathetic.
2014-01-06 01:31:45 PM
1 votes:
stuhayes2010

You should inform France and Germany where most milk is raw. Two whole modern countries need your knowledge.


As a German: "LOL WUT?"
I would be very surprised to find milk which hasn't been pasteurized in our grocery stores

The only raw milk I might have ever gotten was when the farmer next to my parent's vacation cottage still had milk cows - think 30-40 yards from parents' front door to the neighbor's stable door, so we got our fresh milk by leaving an empty milk bottle with a coin next to their milking machine and then strolling over in the evening when we couldn't hear the humming of the machine anymore.
2014-01-06 01:25:38 PM
1 votes:

kvinesknows: and even with all that nurturing by her loving parents... she is still a  slut.

in her 20s.. two kids under 7 AND catches HPV?

close your farkin legs.


About 75%+ Americans will be infected by HPV at some point in their lives*. Perhaps you're just frigid?

*For most people it's A-symptomatic however.
2014-01-06 01:25:27 PM
1 votes:
This thread reads like a letter from a Nigerian Prince.
2014-01-06 01:21:42 PM
1 votes:

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: meow said the dog: LAUGHTER OL I have the hatred of those who have desire for causing the disease who you might call the anti vaccinationists but let me tell you this. I do not believe this person. She is saying that she had the contraction of all of these diseases. This is the feces which has removal when impacted in the bull. She did not have these things.

The roommate of me is the bigger person who has laziness and constantly does the blaming on the disorder of the thyroid of she or of Lyme disease or fibrous my algae or the syndrome of the restful legs. Perhaps instead she should just do the exercising. The point of this is not to do the disparagement of the roommate of me because as you all know I try to see these things as the neutral person. No the point of this is to say that I believe someone did some disagnostics of the self of she. She is the anti-thesis of the Jennifer M. McCarthiasm. They both are the idiots.

"The roommate of me"?  Is English your second language, or are you a bot?


You object to the language of a meow said the dog post, and that's the part that stuck out? That's actually grammatical, if awkward.
2014-01-06 01:21:32 PM
1 votes:
As healthy as my lifestyle seemed, I contracted measles, mumps, rubella, a type of viral meningitis, scarlatina, whooping cough, yearly tonsillitis, and chickenpox.


Ouch.
2014-01-06 01:18:02 PM
1 votes:

stuhayes2010: mediablitz: I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet: no sugar till I was 1, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, no MSG, no additives, no aspartame

There is nothing healthy about giving children raw milk.

You should inform France and Germany where most milk is raw.  Two whole modern countries need your knowledge.


I take it you've never been there.

Most liquid mild in France sold in grocery stores is UHT pasteurized, sitting at room temperature in tetra paks (or the European equivalent).

But to the topic of TFA... fark anti-vaxxers.
2014-01-06 01:17:58 PM
1 votes:

kbronsito: We ate (organic local) meat maybe once or twice a week,

Before all the haters show up... I just wanted to point out that at least these people weren't vegans.


No, they were something even worse: locavores.
2014-01-06 01:14:25 PM
1 votes:

jshine: kbronsito: Before all the haters show up... I just wanted to point out that at least these people weren't vegans.

Why are you hating on vegans?


This. Vegans taste fine if you cook them right.
2014-01-06 01:10:58 PM
1 votes:
DNRTFA

Bullshiat.  Raw milk is a living food.  Pasteurized milk is just cow piss.

The trick to avoiding Listeria etc. in raw milk, is to

1. Understand where you're sourcing the raw milk from and their practices.  No shiat, Sherlock.
2. Drop a washed pre-1965 quarter into the milk bottle.  90% Silver is anti-microbial.

As to the vaccinations, remember the root of vacc- is "cow", and the vaccines are done to provide "herd effect" immunity.  As such, the mistake the hippies obviously made was sending the kid to public school.  They should have home-schooled the kid, too.

Half-assed hippies, if you ask me...
2014-01-06 01:10:12 PM
1 votes:
I am the '70s child of a health nut. My mother used homeopathy, aromatherapy, osteopathy; we took daily supplements of vitamin C, echinacea, cod liver oil.

Fixed.
2014-01-06 01:09:43 PM
1 votes:
She fails to make a compelling or even interesting case. I wish they had a stupid, whiny coont vaccine.
2014-01-06 01:09:01 PM
1 votes:
Once again, meow said the dog proves herself to be the smartest person on Fark.
2014-01-06 01:05:00 PM
1 votes:

mediablitz: I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet: no sugar till I was 1, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, no MSG, no additives, no aspartame

There is nothing healthy about giving children raw milk.


That one is actively unhealthy.  Some of the others (no sugar until 1, extensive breastfeeding, organic meat) are healthy.  Some don't matter (avoiding aspartame and MSG, growing your own vegetables).
2014-01-06 01:04:01 PM
1 votes:
There are children who grew up for thousands of years without vaccinations and did just fine.  Overall, it's pretty clear that vaccinations are better than no vaccinations, but even when we did blatantly stupid things like bloodletting, the human race managed to survive just fine.

And Jenny McCarthy killed more kittens with her 1996 playboy spread than she killed children with her vaccinations nonsense.  Won't anybody please think of the kittens?
2014-01-06 01:03:14 PM
1 votes:
She does have autism, and all this is taking place in her mind.
2014-01-06 11:54:37 AM
1 votes:
So you're saying avoiding MSG and sugar has fark-all to do with viruses and shiat? No way.
 
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