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(Slate)   A child who grew up unvaccinated because of her parents' hippy lifestyle recalls how much of her youth she spent sick. She doesn't have autism now, though, so there's that   (slate.com ) divider line
    More: Stupid, autism, innate immune system, Queen Elizabeth I, youths  
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12806 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Jan 2014 at 1:00 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-06 04:49:03 PM  

KatjaMouse: Also what parents still think it's a good idea to have "Chickenpox Parties" in lieu of of the vaccination? Do they not know how shingles develop?


They do now. Or should. But that was acceptable at the time decades ago. I had the mumps when I was 3 and dammit if my mother didn't go apeshiat with the vaccinations after that (wasn't required at the time, but encouraged). Anybody remember those 4-prong vax and still have the shoulder scar?
 
2014-01-06 04:50:48 PM  

Rik01: Excellent article! It's a great example of looking at the results from 'the other side', which is why we developed vaccinations and other medical treatments ages ago.

Your great-grandparents probably had immune systems that were as strong as a battleship -- but all that healthy living tended to shorten their lives and as transportation devices became better and cheaper, they came in contact with more people from far away, who brought with them diseases they hadn't been exposed to.

Herbal stuff is great. It served as the primary medicines for centuries. However, it took scientists and sophisticated equipment to extract and condense the desired substances into pill form so you didn't need to drink a gallon of weak tea for a headache or eat a pound of weeds every 12 hours for bowel problems.

Pasteurization emerged for two primary reasons: food preservation and to stop the spread of disease. I guess the deaths of hundreds of thousands over the years from infected raw milk from healthy cows just isn't enough proof.

Rickets, a disease caused by the lack of Vitamin D which softens the long bones during childhood, causing a kids legs to bow like those of a career cowboys from 100 years ago, was eliminated by the government requiring D to be added to milk. Then they slapped price controls on the stuff for schools to make sure kids could get all of the healthy, calcium rich, Ricketts fighting moo juice dirt cheap.

Within a decade, Ricketts became a disease mainly talked about and probably never seen by the average parent.

No matter how rough and tough and 'natural' a lifestyle you live, there are diseases which you can get easily. Many lurk in that organic, rich soil you walk over, some of which even get into those insecticide free, organically grown, nutritious and delicious veggies you wolf down smugly.

Even most of those 'Survivorman' type shows on TV pause to warn you that some organic things need to be prepared carefully before eating. (Pull off the heads of grass ...


I need a reference where people died off earlier 150 years ago. Infants died more, but most adults lived as long, or longer than we do now. Now we suffer from working so hard to keeps the kids alive. Not only that, we haven't cured anything - unless you take an inoculation, that do have side effects, you're still in the dark ages. In a way we are worse off now. 150 years ago there wasn't world wide nuclear radiation and chemicals in everything they ate. Even tobacco was all natural and although not harmless, fairly harmless. They started using chemical pesticides like DDT in the late 30's. By the 50's the correlation between smoking and cancer just fell in their laps?  What about the correlation between pesticides and cancer?

Our kid aren't healthier now, just have a better chance of living past birth.
 
2014-01-06 04:53:41 PM  

inner ted: feel free to enlighten me then
& whew
thanks for talking me off the ledge


It's what I do.

I'm not going to bother trying to enlighten you, anyone opposed to someone's personal argument is always wrong in the extreme. That's all I was pointing out.
 
2014-01-06 05:06:30 PM  

AngryPanda: inner ted: feel free to enlighten me then
& whew
thanks for talking me off the ledge

It's what I do.

I'm not going to bother trying to enlighten you, anyone opposed to someone's personal argument is always wrong in the extreme. That's all I was pointing out.


so you are poor at two things then?
 
2014-01-06 05:09:32 PM  

KatjaMouse: Also what parents still think it's a good idea to have "Chickenpox Parties" in lieu of of the vaccination? Do they not know how shingles develop?


The vaccination, or at least the early form of it, wore off after a while, leaving you vulnerable to Chicken Pox as an adult, when it's far more potent and dangerous. I think that's fixed now, but remember, chicken pox parties were essentially a form of vaccination. I went to one and had it as a kid, and I'm not that old. You get it once and you're done, except for the relatively rare cases of shingles (at the time- incidence has been increasing pretty notably in the last few decades for whatever reason*) where it flames up later in life. If you tried to avoid it and got it as an adult, it could be deadly. You can also get the chickenpox as a kid, and still get the vaccine later to prevent shingles, and since you usually get Shingles in your old age, if you get chicken pox the old fashioned way you still have 60 years to figure out whether you want to risk Shingles or get the vaccine.

Look, I'm fine going after the anti-vaxxers, but the Chicken Pox vaccine is not the one you want to hang your hat on. The old fashioned way of handling that was perfectly serviceable, and it was actually a better and safer course during the early days of the vaccine. Don't worry about the kids who got that early vaccine though- there was a follow up booster shot that went around.

*It actually had been thought by many to be attributable to the Chicken Pox vaccine, but there's been some recent research showing that the increase began before the vaccine was introduced. So now we're back to where medical science responds with a shrug and a, "damned if I know".
 
2014-01-06 05:10:47 PM  

mbillips: So, the UHT. Does it do less damage to the milk than heating does? Personally, I want everything I eat to be irradiated; the miniscule increase in the amount of radioactivity I'd be exposed to would be WAY offset by the lowered chance of food poisoning (plus, my lettuce wouldn't rot so fast).


not even miniscule, zero increase in radiation, food irradiation systems do not use the kind of radiation that leaves things radioactive.
 
2014-01-06 05:11:31 PM  
If she literally crumbled, she might also have a skin disorder.
 
2014-01-06 05:13:59 PM  

mbillips: pdieten: mbillips: So, the UHT. Does it do less damage to the milk than heating does? Personally, I want everything I eat to be irradiated; the miniscule increase in the amount of radioactivity I'd be exposed to would be WAY offset by the lowered chance of food poisoning (plus, my lettuce wouldn't rot so fast).

??!!

There's no radiation. UHT is heated at an above-boiling temperature for just a couple of seconds (versus the regular pasteurization used here in the US, which is sub-boiling for a longer period of time)

UHT kills everything in the milk, which is why it's shelf-stable for a long time instead of needing to be stored chilled. I don't know if I'd want to drink the stuff. It's the way they do it in Europe I guess. Not popular in the US but it can be found.

Don't drink raw milk. It's full of poop bacteria, because cows poop a lot and get poop everywhere. They are disgustingly filthy animals, and they can get gruesome diseases. If you want healthy bacteria in your milk buy yogurt instead. That's why they make it.

(Source: I grew up on a dairy farm where we regularly received awards from our dairy for the high quality and low bacteria count of our milk. Despite this, we had a home pasteurizer through which all milk for the house was ran. We were never allowed to drink the raw milk. We knew where it came from.)

Commercial dairy cows are filthy, constantly wading around in muck and poop, but our milk cow lived in a large, grassy field with a handful of horses, goats, pigs and beef cattle, and was brought into a milking stall with a floor covered in straw. She wasn't visibly dirty, and we always washed off her udder with hot, soapy water before we milked her. And we filtered it through cheesecloth before putting it in the fridge (mostly to get the hair out). Drinking that milk wasn't any riskier than breast feeding (people have fecal coliform bacteria all over their skin, too).

Germaphobes aren't much more rational than anti-vaxxers. You've got an immune system for a reason. Food poisoning is almost always the result of spoilage, not exposure to a few bacteria that aren't allowed to multiply. You get listeria in milk because it's very difficult to completely sterilize a milking machine, not from a microscopic fragment of cow poop.


It's very easy to sterilize a milking machine. You add a sterilization system to your milking apparatus, you run it after every session, and you sterilize the bulk tank after the milkman comes.
That aside there are many vectors via which pathogens can enter milk, of which the cow is one. This is a natural secretion of an animal, and many things that affect that animal can show up in the milk. It is well known that raw milk is full of campylobacter, e.coli and other fecal bacteria. It is really not clear to me what value there is in not putting some effort into removing that. There are less unpleasant ways of getting healthy bacteria than drinking pathogen-infected milk.
 
2014-01-06 05:21:42 PM  

meow said the dog: LAUGHTER OL I have the hatred of those who have desire for causing the disease who you might call the anti vaccinationists but let me tell you this. I do not believe this person. She is saying that she had the contraction of all of these diseases. This is the feces which has removal when impacted in the bull. She did not have these things.

The roommate of me is the bigger person who has laziness and constantly does the blaming on the disorder of the thyroid of she or of Lyme disease or fibrous my algae or the syndrome of the restful legs. Perhaps instead she should just do the exercising. The point of this is not to do the disparagement of the roommate of me because as you all know I try to see these things as the neutral person. No the point of this is to say that I believe someone did some disagnostics of the self of she. She is the anti-thesis of the Jennifer M. McCarthiasm. They both are the idiots.


Either your Google Translate or your Bill Cosby impression could use some fine tuning.
 
2014-01-06 05:30:33 PM  

meow said the dog: This is the feces which has removal when impacted in the bull.


Okay, I get it now. I lol'd.
 
2014-01-06 05:30:37 PM  

Ficoce: Even most of those 'Survivorman' type shows on TV pause to warn you that some organic things need to be prepared carefully before eating. (Pull off the heads of grass ...

I need a reference where people died off earlier 150 years ago. Infants died more, but most adults lived as long, or longer than we do now. Now we suffer from working so hard to keeps the kids alive. Not only that, we haven't cured anything - unless you take an inoculation, that do have side effects, you're still in the dark ages. In a way we are worse off now. 150 years ago there wasn't world wide nuclear radiation and chemicals in everything they ate. Even tobacco was all natural and although not harmless, fairly harmless. They started using chemical pesticides like DDT in the late 30's. By the 50's the correlation between smoking and cancer just fell in their laps? What about the correlation between pesticides and cancer?

Our kid aren't healthier now, just have a better chance of living past birth.


Nonsense

a) there are cohort morbidity studies you can find in 5 minutes of searching on the NIH.
b) there's such a thing as quality of life.
 
2014-01-06 05:35:18 PM  
I've never remotely understood the anti-vac logic.   Let's give them the benefit of the doubt here about a small possibility that the vaccine may cause some forms of Autism. (And no, I don't buy that BS 'science' of a second, this is just for the sake of the argument.)

So in that case, I'm a parent and I have to choose.  Do I take an amazingly small risk of giving my kid a difficult but not universally crippling disorder?  Or do I take the much greater risk that my kid could get any number of diseases like measles, polio, smallpox, diphtheria, et cetera?  We've forgotten it over the last couple generations, but as people referencing Victorian cemeteries upthread have pointed out, in a non-vaccinated world these diseases were not rare, they were common, and they either caused horrible things like paralysis, or they just outright killed you.

So seven if the autism argument was valid, I'm still vaccinating.  It would be a responsible calculated risk.
 
2014-01-06 05:42:22 PM  
Doctor told me I had the Human Papilloma virus and I said but Doctor, I've never been to Spain.
 
2014-01-06 05:57:16 PM  
Anti-vaccine nuts aren't just stupid, they're dangerously stupid.  I think all of this "natural" bullsh*t is gaining so much traction now because we have been protected from horrendous and ubiquitous diseases for so long that people have forgotten how terrible it was to have to live in fear of Polio, or worry about your kid dying of whooping cough, before we had things like vaccines and food safety.  Are we going to go back to people dying of the consumption now?  FFS.
 
2014-01-06 05:59:43 PM  

cirby: phaseolus:
Check your label, there's "pasteurized" and then there's "ultra pasteurized". The latter's heated to a higher temperature, but held there for a shorter time.

That's the problem - all of the milk I can find is "ultra." Or at least regular milk that they ran through the old process for a longer time. Yeah, they do that (there's a milk processing plant a block from my house, so I get to talk to some of the employees, who admit that pretty much every processing plant is going for longer/hotter pasteurization just in case). There's not a lot of milk producers who use 1960s-style pasteurization any more.


trader joes has good organic "pasturized" milk.  it's not labeled as "ultra".  i only know this because i make cheese and a chef recommended this brand.  expiration dates are key though.  if it's expiring in several weeks, it's probably "ultra".
 
2014-01-06 06:00:46 PM  

shirtsbyeric: Doctor told me I had the Human Papilloma virus and I said but Doctor, I've never been to Spain.


But you've been horned by a few bulls in your day
 
2014-01-06 06:04:26 PM  

DrunkWithImpotence: I've never remotely understood the anti-vac logic.   Let's give them the benefit of the doubt here about a small possibility that the vaccine may cause some forms of Autism. (And no, I don't buy that BS 'science' of a second, this is just for the sake of the argument.)

So in that case, I'm a parent and I have to choose.  Do I take an amazingly small risk of giving my kid a difficult but not universally crippling disorder?  Or do I take the much greater risk that my kid could get any number of diseases like measles, polio, smallpox, diphtheria, et cetera?  We've forgotten it over the last couple generations, but as people referencing Victorian cemeteries upthread have pointed out, in a non-vaccinated world these diseases were not rare, they were common, and they either caused horrible things like paralysis, or they just outright killed you.

So seven if the autism argument was valid, I'm still vaccinating.  It would be a responsible calculated risk.


The original claim was that it was the Thimerosal behind the rise in autism. Which was a testable hypothesis. It was tested and it flunked. And it's no longer used anyway. So the anti-vax people are really just being asshats.
 
2014-01-06 06:10:43 PM  

FrancoFile: Ficoce: Even most of those 'Survivorman' type shows on TV pause to warn you that some organic things need to be prepared carefully before eating. (Pull off the heads of grass ...

I need a reference where people died off earlier 150 years ago. Infants died more, but most adults lived as long, or longer than we do now. Now we suffer from working so hard to keeps the kids alive. Not only that, we haven't cured anything - unless you take an inoculation, that do have side effects, you're still in the dark ages. In a way we are worse off now. 150 years ago there wasn't world wide nuclear radiation and chemicals in everything they ate. Even tobacco was all natural and although not harmless, fairly harmless. They started using chemical pesticides like DDT in the late 30's. By the 50's the correlation between smoking and cancer just fell in their laps? What about the correlation between pesticides and cancer?

Our kid aren't healthier now, just have a better chance of living past birth.

Nonsense

a) there are cohort morbidity studies you can find in 5 minutes of searching on the NIH.
b) there's such a thing as quality of life.


Very true.

Life expectancy of 20 year-olds went from 40 years in 1850 to 50 years in the 1950s to 57 years recently.
 
2014-01-06 06:14:33 PM  

Ficoce: I need a reference where people died off earlier 150 years ago. Infants died more, but most adults lived as long, or longer than we do now. Now we suffer from working so hard to keeps the kids alive. Not only that, we haven't cured anything - unless you take an inoculation, that do have side effects, you're still in the dark ages. In a way we are worse off now. 150 years ago there wasn't world wide nuclear radiation and chemicals in everything they ate. Even tobacco was all natural and although not harmless, fairly harmless. They started using chemical pesticides like DDT in the late 30's. By the 50's the correlation between smoking and cancer just fell in their laps? What about the correlation between pesticides and cancer?

Our kid aren't healthier now, just have a better chance of living past birth.


I'm a longtime lurker here on Fark, but congrats on writing a post that literally took me aback with its crazy.  Wow.
 
2014-01-06 06:57:26 PM  

No Such Agency: kvinesknows: LOL.  just look at all the sluts coming out of the closet to defend this woman.

I've trolled this site for years, and you have much to learn young Padawan. Now go and meditate on this, and come back when you can seize an outraged reaction from midair with your chopsticks.


You bastard. I paid good money for this wine & it just shot out my nose all over my smartphone. I shall be forwarding a bill posthaste! :P
 
2014-01-06 07:02:42 PM  

Ficoce: I need a reference where people died off earlier 150 years ago. Infants died more, but most adults lived as long, or longer than we do now. Now we suffer from working so hard to keeps the kids alive. Not only that, we haven't cured anything - unless you take an inoculation, that do have side effects, you're still in the dark ages. In a way we are worse off now. 150 years ago there wasn't world wide nuclear radiation and chemicals in everything they ate. Even tobacco was all natural and although not harmless, fairly harmless. They started using chemical pesticides like DDT in the late 30's. By the 50's the correlation between smoking and cancer just fell in their laps? What about the correlation between pesticides and cancer?

Our kid aren't healthier now, just have a better chance of living past birth.


Holy crap... You aren't a bright one, are you?

Kids 150 years ago died not only more often in birth but during childhood as well. Polio, measles, mumps, etc... can be very dead, especially for children and the elderly.

And tobacco has always been bad and its cancer rate has jack squat to do with DDT and is due to the carcinogens in the smoke and tobacco.
 
2014-01-06 07:06:23 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: PsiChick: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: breastfed for over a year

[media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com image 634x834]

...Uh, over a year is  not that long. WHO recommends continuing breastfeeding until about age two, although children tend to self-wean when they're ready, anywhere from six months to two years old.

All 5 of my kids self-weaned ~15 months.


Mine was weaned at nine months. When she started on solid food, I switched to formula. But I was always of the mind that if they are old enough to ask for it? Then its time to wean them off the boob.
 
2014-01-06 07:26:19 PM  

Coach McGirk: InterruptingQuirk: PsiChick: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: breastfed for over a year

[media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com image 634x834]

...Uh, over a year is  not that long. WHO recommends continuing breastfeeding until about age two, although children tend to self-wean when they're ready, anywhere from six months to two years old.

All 5 of my kids self-weaned ~15 months.

Mine was weaned at nine months. When she started on solid food, I switched to formula. But I was always of the mind that if they are old enough to ask for it? Then its time to wean them off the boob.


It's really time when they can ask for it in writing.  With proper grammar and punctuation.
 
2014-01-06 07:48:54 PM  
I have a "friend" who is a middle-aged Catholic mother of four that is paranoid about vaccinating her kids.  She tried to get a waiver from the private school she sends her kids to, but since the Diocese will not allow unvaccinated kids to attend any private Catholic school in her area, her only choice is to home-school.   When I questioned her vaccination paranoia she responded "I have suspicions that I may have an autoimmune problem. In that case, it would of been inherited from my mother and I could of passed it on to my children. No one with an compromised immune system should receive vaccinations. " She is paranoid of vaccinations because her mother has "autoimmunce problems", when reality tells us that her mother is a depressed, suicidal, drug-abusing alcoholic.  Her husband is a massage therapist who sells all kinds of bullshiate medications on Ebay and is always whining because health insurance (and now, ACA) does not cover massage therapy, he also plays in a band and is gone far away from home a lot of the time.  She will fail her children if she elects to home school them, because she is a narcist who is always going on no-pay or low-pay "modeling shoots", complains about being tired all the time, and gets "no support from her family".  I feel really bad for all her kids.
 
2014-01-06 08:06:25 PM  

mediablitz: I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet: no sugar till I was 1, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, no MSG, no additives, no aspartame

There is nothing healthy about giving children raw milk.


Raw milk is not inherently unhealthy.  Healthy females, very strict sanitary practices, proper sealing and using before use by dates, etc. and you have milk that is healthy and, barring lactose allergies or sensitivities, just as good as pasturized.  Otherwise, bad bacteria manages to contaminate the milk at any of a dozen (that might be a slight exageration) points and it can be a very unhealthy drink.
 
2014-01-06 08:11:03 PM  

Timid Goddess: mediablitz: I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet: no sugar till I was 1, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, no MSG, no additives, no aspartame

There is nothing healthy about giving children raw milk.

Raw milk is not inherently unhealthy.  Healthy females, very strict sanitary practices, proper sealing and using before use by dates, etc. and you have milk that is healthy and, barring lactose allergies or sensitivities, just as good as pasturized.  Otherwise, bad bacteria manages to contaminate the milk at any of a dozen (that might be a slight exageration) points and it can be a very unhealthy lethal drink.


FTFY
 
2014-01-06 08:19:14 PM  
Grew up so poor my parents could not pay the money for vaccination.
 
2014-01-06 08:20:53 PM  

draypresct: FrancoFile: Ficoce: Even most of those 'Survivorman' type shows on TV pause to warn you that some organic things need to be prepared carefully before eating. (Pull off the heads of grass ...

I need a reference where people died off earlier 150 years ago. Infants died more, but most adults lived as long, or longer than we do now. Now we suffer from working so hard to keeps the kids alive. Not only that, we haven't cured anything - unless you take an inoculation, that do have side effects, you're still in the dark ages. In a way we are worse off now. 150 years ago there wasn't world wide nuclear radiation and chemicals in everything they ate. Even tobacco was all natural and although not harmless, fairly harmless. They started using chemical pesticides like DDT in the late 30's. By the 50's the correlation between smoking and cancer just fell in their laps? What about the correlation between pesticides and cancer?

Our kid aren't healthier now, just have a better chance of living past birth.

Nonsense

a) there are cohort morbidity studies you can find in 5 minutes of searching on the NIH.
b) there's such a thing as quality of life.

Very true.

Life expectancy of 20 year-olds went from 40 years in 1850 to 50 years in the 1950s to 57 years recently.


Interesting,isn't it?

Yeah, a lot of people died of disease, too much coal smoke, etc, but if they took care of themselves they lasted awhile.

George Washington assumed room temperature when he was 67. Thomas Jefferson 83, John Adams 90, Thomas Edison 84, Benjamin Franklin 84.

These guys weren't health nuts. They smoked and drank, ate red meat with lard based gravy all the time. Why didn't they die when they were 50? It's hard to think that they were healthier back then, because we've been programmed to blame lifestyle choices for short life expectancy, when it's really just the man made environment around us. Look at how many nuclear bomb tests have been conducted. Look at the pesticides and chemicals thrown into the environment at about the same time. You would think that these would have been looked at when correlating cancer back in the 50's - but no, it was smoking. There's hardly any fish left in the Pacific that don't have trace radiation levels from the reactor meltdown - but it's more popular to blame second smoke? And I'm the one spewing crazy talk? Wish medicine would develop a critical thinking pill, but they don't want to.
 
2014-01-06 08:59:29 PM  

Ficoce: draypresct: FrancoFile: Ficoce: Even most of those 'Survivorman' type shows on TV pause to warn you that some organic things need to be prepared carefully before eating. (Pull off the heads of grass ...

I need a reference where people died off earlier 150 years ago. Infants died more, but most adults lived as long, or longer than we do now. Now we suffer from working so hard to keeps the kids alive. Not only that, we haven't cured anything - unless you take an inoculation, that do have side effects, you're still in the dark ages. In a way we are worse off now. 150 years ago there wasn't world wide nuclear radiation and chemicals in everything they ate. Even tobacco was all natural and although not harmless, fairly harmless. They started using chemical pesticides like DDT in the late 30's. By the 50's the correlation between smoking and cancer just fell in their laps? What about the correlation between pesticides and cancer?

Our kid aren't healthier now, just have a better chance of living past birth.

Nonsense

a) there are cohort morbidity studies you can find in 5 minutes of searching on the NIH.
b) there's such a thing as quality of life.

Very true.

Life expectancy of 20 year-olds went from 40 years in 1850 to 50 years in the 1950s to 57 years recently.

Interesting,isn't it?

Yeah, a lot of people died of disease, too much coal smoke, etc, but if they took care of themselves they lasted awhile.

George Washington assumed room temperature when he was 67. Thomas Jefferson 83, John Adams 90, Thomas Edison 84, Benjamin Franklin 84.

These guys weren't health nuts. They smoked and drank, ate red meat with lard based gravy all the time. Why didn't they die when they were 50? It's hard to think that they were healthier back then, because we've been programmed to blame lifestyle choices for short life expectancy, when it's really just the man made environment around us. Look at how many nuclear bomb tests have been conducted. Look at the pesticides and chemicals thr ...


Seriously, you're insane.  We just quoted statistics that disproved your point, and you went right on past without blinking.

Those people you listed were wealthy and had the absolute best medical care available at the time.

85% of the average radiation dose comes from natural sources.  Almost all of the rest comes from medical X-rays.
 
2014-01-06 09:02:30 PM  

Ficoce: Interesting,isn't it?


More people live longer than ever before in our horrible, polluted modern world, chemical infested, radiation-leaking modern world. Could we do better? Hell yes.

Was there a golden age? Is medicine all lies? No, you're farking crazy.
 
2014-01-06 09:08:25 PM  

FrancoFile: Ficoce: draypresct: FrancoFile: Ficoce:

Like I said, we are now better at keeping kids alive past birth.


http://www.livescience.com/10569-human-lifespans-constant-2-000-year s. html
 
2014-01-06 09:11:47 PM  

Ficoce: George Washington assumed room temperature when he was 67. Thomas Jefferson 83, John Adams 90, Thomas Edison 84, Benjamin Franklin 84.


1) Yes, it was POSSIBLE to live that long.  It just didn't happen often.
2) You're picking people (ignoring Tom Edison, who is late 1800's, which was basically modern and doesn't count towards your point) who are:
a) upper-class (ie: No hard labor for you, and better/more food).
b) got famous in their 30's, 40's, 50's (or in the case of Mr. Franklin, his 70's).

There's a massive selection bias there.  You're picking people who weren't dead of disease at (forty-)five, weren't sickly all their lives, and weren't (as) exposed to the nastiness that was killing people.

/Mind you, it turns out that (from a starting point of our current diets) fat/protein are really good for you, carbs are bad, and the only people who know less than our current doctors are the 'crats in charge of government health policy, but we're a LOT better than we were.
//Among other things, they fixed my eyes.  Couldn't do that 40 years ago, much less 200.
 
2014-01-06 09:18:53 PM  

Ficoce: FrancoFile: Ficoce: draypresct: FrancoFile: Ficoce:

Like I said, we are now better at keeping kids alive past birth.

http://www.livescience.com/10569-human-lifespans-constant-2-000-year s. html


That article proves nothing.

The oldest a human being got in antiquity was 70 or 80 or 90.
And the oldest a human being gets today is 70 or 80 or 90.
But the proportion of human beings who live to that age is higher now than ever.

You're as bad as the late, lamented QA.
 
2014-01-06 09:27:09 PM  

Ficoce: FrancoFile: Ficoce: draypresct: FrancoFile: Ficoce:

Like I said, we are now better at keeping kids alive past birth.

http://www.livescience.com/10569-human-lifespans-constant-2-000-year s. html


You never got science or statistics, did you?
 
2014-01-06 09:56:19 PM  

LavenderWolf: Millennium: dynomutt: Bullshiat. Raw milk is a living food.

Chock full of that ever important and wholesome élan vital, amirite?

Pasteurized milk is just cow piss.

Actually, if we wanted to be really accurate, it would be cow sweat.

No, it's milk, heated and cooled. FYI all the fluid in milk comes from blood plasma, so, if you drink any milk at all you're drinking blood.


Milk is produced by modified sweat glands.  So, I guess you could use the same reasoning to argue that mammals sweat blood.
 
2014-01-06 10:00:20 PM  

meow said the dog: LAUGHTER OL I have the hatred of those who have desire for causing the disease who you might call the anti vaccinationists but let me tell you this. I do not believe this person. She is saying that she had the contraction of all of these diseases. This is the feces which has removal when impacted in the bull. She did not have these things.

The roommate of me is the bigger person who has laziness and constantly does the blaming on the disorder of the thyroid of she or of Lyme disease or fibrous my algae or the syndrome of the restful legs. Perhaps instead she should just do the exercising. The point of this is not to do the disparagement of the roommate of me because as you all know I try to see these things as the neutral person. No the point of this is to say that I believe someone did some disagnostics of the self of she. She is the anti-thesis of the Jennifer M. McCarthiasm. They both are the idiots.


I was tired all the time for no reason. I exercised as much as I could muster up the energy to, but it didn't help. I usually slept at least ten hours a night.

Then I was diagnosed with severe periodic limb movement disorder after a sleep study.

Its normal to move a little when you sleep. But if you move more than four time an hour, you have this condition. It destroys sleep quality and makes you tired all the time.

I moved over sixty times an hour during the course of my sleep study.

I suffered from this undiagnosed condition for years. I wasn't farking lazy, despite what some people thought of me.

Eat shiat.
 
2014-01-06 10:03:06 PM  
And yes, I'm under treatment for my sleep disorder now. Heavy duty muscle relaxers.

/no, you can't have any.
 
2014-01-06 10:05:06 PM  
I was fully vaccinated and still spent much of my childhood sick. Your move.
 
2014-01-06 10:06:45 PM  

FrancoFile: Ficoce: draypresct: FrancoFile: Ficoce: I need a reference where people died off earlier 150 years ago.
...
Life expectancy of 20 year-olds went from 40 years in 1850 to 50 years in the 1950s to 57 years recently.

Interesting,isn't it?

Yeah, a lot of people died of disease, too much coal smoke, etc, but if they took care of themselves they lasted awhile.

George Washington assumed room temperature when he was 67. Thomas Jefferson 83, John Adams 90, Thomas Edison 84, Benjamin Franklin 84.

These guys weren't health nuts. They smoked and drank, ate red meat with lard based gravy all the time. Why didn't they die when they were 50? It's hard to think that they were healthier back then, because we've been programmed to blame lifestyle choices for short life expectancy, when it's really just the man made environment around us. Look at how many nuclear bomb tests have been conducted. Look at the pesticides and chemicals thr ...

Seriously, you're insane. We just quoted statistics that disproved your point, and you went right on past without blinking.

Those people you listed were wealthy and had the absolute best medical care available at the time.

85% of the average radiation dose comes from natural sources. Almost all of the rest comes from medical X-rays.



Thanks, FrancoFile. When I read Ficoce's response, I thought I'd somehow failed to communicate that adults (starting at age 20) live on average nearly 1.5 times longer than they did 150 years ago. It's not just a change in infant mortality.

By the way, I agree the wealthy had several advantages, including medical care. Simply having a constant supply of reasonably good-quality food means:
 - You don't have to eat something questionable just because the alternative is not having enough energy to work.
 - Your body has the resources to fight off that TB infection.
 - You don't have to work in high-risk environments.
 - etc.

I think the lifespan gap is closing, though. While the wealthy had child mortality rates of only 1/11 (v. 1/2 for the poor), the infant mortality rates for the rich and poor currently are much, much closer (in absolute terms; perhaps not as a proportion).
 
2014-01-06 10:10:00 PM  

untaken_name: I was fully vaccinated and still spent much of my childhood sick. Your move.


With what?
 
2014-01-06 10:21:08 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: Timid Goddess: mediablitz: I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet: no sugar till I was 1, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, no MSG, no additives, no aspartame

There is nothing healthy about giving children raw milk.

Raw milk is not inherently unhealthy.  Healthy females, very strict sanitary practices, proper sealing and using before use by dates, etc. and you have milk that is healthy and, barring lactose allergies or sensitivities, just as good as pasturized.  Otherwise, bad bacteria manages to contaminate the milk at any of a dozen (that might be a slight exageration) points and it can be a very unhealthy lethal drink.

FTFY


You must admit that potentially lethal can be considered very unhealthy.
 
2014-01-06 11:26:42 PM  
Those choosing not to vaccinate aren't just endangering their own children's lives, but the lives of the immunocompromised who can't get the shots or don't respond to them. (Such as the elderly, those with cancer, the very young, ect.) I have a primary immune deficiency, and do not respond to the shots. I rely on herd immunity to keep me safe. I've already nearly died from a whooping cough outbreak when I was 13 due to people not vaccinating their children.  
 
You can choose not to vaccinate-but YOU and only YOU are responsible for those lives lost in the resulting outbreaks. Those lives are on your head. Actions have consequences. You have to live with those consequences-including any resulting criminal charges. Because if I die from a preventable disease that can be traced back to your unvaccinated little snowflake, be prepared to have manslaughter charges brought against you by my remaining family.
 
2014-01-06 11:37:02 PM  

Beatlefreak: be prepared to have manslaughter charges brought against you by my remaining family.


You...you have only a vague idea of how the legal system works, don't you?
 
2014-01-06 11:50:26 PM  
Ficoce

Link

Public health measures are credited with much of the recent increase in life expectancy. During the 20th century, the average lifespan in the United States increased by more than 30 years, of which 25 years can be attributed to advances in public health



If you read your history books, you'll note that the average lifespan increased along with medical technologies. In the past, infants accounted for much of the early deaths pretty much for poor understanding of prenatal care, the lack of proper medication for common ailments, lack of proper nutrition (breast feeding isn't sufficient if the mother herself is not properly nourished) lack of proper cleanliness and no vaccinations.

Adults fared the same. They worked hard and even if they ate well, they were susceptible to a host of diseases from the effects of that very work. As we have seen today, even regular, vigorous exercise can bring on joint damage. Repeated motions, such as bending over while working a field, can wear away the cartilage in the spine. Bone fractures not properly set would later generate pain. A shortage of calcium in a diet could lead to weak bones, being outside too long in the hot sun without protective lenses encouraged cataracts, which could not be removed and eventually caused near total blindness which caused problems for the affected in taking care of themselves.

Cataracts, BTW, have been more of a problem for centuries among the elderly than skin cancer.

People were more used to pain since anesthetics were not well developed, that actually gave them a somewhat different attitude than most would have today. That means, various minor injuries or even moderately severe ones might be ignored and left untreated. Plus, when you're used to pain, you tend to be less cautious. Working in a hazardous environment, like, say a machine shop with steam hammers, one might come to expect deafness as part of the cost of plying a trade or having a finger or two mashed off as just part of the job.

Folks now and then ate rare pork, which was infected with a parasite that thorough cooking kills, which then got into their muscles and caused terrible pain. There was no cure for it. They often drank naturally polluted water -- not realizing that the land it came from held large amounts of organic arsenic or that the lead pipes they used poisoned it. Plus, even fresh water wells, open to the air, could collect dead bugs, fungus, bird feces, rodent feces, tadpoles, rotting plant material and anything else which fell in.

Place the outhouse in the wrong site and that bucket of crystal clear, cool, refreshing well water could be teaming with fecal bacteria. You didn't have to place it within 100 feet of the well either, just upstream of the underground water flow.

Familiar with copper pans? Cool, aren't they? Well cooking in copper consistently can give you too much copper in your blood. That's why many were 'tinned' with a layer of tin in the inside. The same with cast iron.

Homes equipped with fireplaces and wood burning stoves tended to be sooty, meaning you got to breath in more of it than you think.

With cleansers still in their infancy, even washing cloths in boiling water would not kill all bacteria transferred to them through blood or waste. Plus, the soaps didn't do that great of a job. Prior to the invention of sanitary napkins, ladies wore a complex harness which held a strip of cloth between their legs. That cloth was dropped in a bucket usually in some private place, then later washed and reused.

Baby diapers -- same thing and you know how much babies like to poop! Your basic antibacterial bleach was not that common decades ago. Just hot water and simple, basic lye soap.

Without immunizations, as populations started living closer and closer together, they spread diseases more easily among themselves. Sewage and garbage disposal was often primitive at best, with the former often being dumped in the nearest river -- which also happened to provide drinking water for the community.

Fifty years ago, no one realized that burning hundreds of worn out tires in dumps put gobs of poisons in the local air, which could then settle down over local crops, to be washed into local soils, absorbed by vegetables and meat animals and then consumed by the locals themselves.

Need I mention lead paint? How about the old practice of taking used motor oil in the hot, dry summer months and using it on dirt roads to 'settle the dust'? Did you know the early cars often did not have an oil pan or pump? They used an 'automatic oiler'. Octopus-like, it sat atop the engine, with tubes running down to all of the areas needing lubrication. You filled it with oil, probably a quart, adjusted the many little valves, and it dripped oil on those areas.

The excess dripped right on out onto the dirt roads. That oil didn't just go away either. It spread out and got into things.

Basically, folks just didn't know the harm, didn't have the education to understand the implications nor the technology to discover it all. Like asbestos was considered the best fireproofing around and safe. They even made floor tiles of it and exterior tiles/shingles as siding. No one realized that adding lead to gasoline as an anti-knock compound would poison hundreds of thousands of people in the long run, even those without gas engines.

I've seen a host of regulations and changes affecting the food, medications, clothing and working environments in the time I've been alive. I've heard of diseases my folks actually saw, but never seen myself nor actually knew of anyone who had caught one.

I recall popular tin toys, flat sheets which were bent by your Dad into the shape of brightly painted buildings -- like gas stations -- with edges razor sharp. I got cut playing with them. They're banned now. Enriched and specially prepared baby foods cut down dramatically on early infant deaths.

Lead solder has been banned from plumbing. Lead pellets have been banned for use in duck hunting and other forms of hunting requiring the use of shotguns. Paregoric -- a wonderful, soothing liquid medication easily available off the drug store counter, has been banned. It was basically liquid opium. I used to have a toy when I was about 10 that melted lead and poured it into steel molds to make 'tin' soldiers. Burned the krap out of myself a lot. It's banned for obvious reasons.

Better foods, better medications, better environments, labor saving devices, better education, better transportation and even better water treatment, all have contributed to extending the average length of life for us.

If your Dad is still alive and was in WW2 (well, maybe your Grandpa) ask him about the STD treatment for soldiers, which actually didn't do much but was painful as heck because they injected it right up your 'P'-hole. Now, you get a shot or take a pill that works.
 
2014-01-07 12:04:20 AM  

Timid Goddess: LavenderWolf: Millennium: dynomutt: Bullshiat. Raw milk is a living food.

Chock full of that ever important and wholesome élan vital, amirite?

Pasteurized milk is just cow piss.

Actually, if we wanted to be really accurate, it would be cow sweat.

No, it's milk, heated and cooled. FYI all the fluid in milk comes from blood plasma, so, if you drink any milk at all you're drinking blood.

Milk is produced by modified sweat glands.  So, I guess you could use the same reasoning to argue that mammals sweat blood.


Pretty much all fluid produced by mammals comes from blood really.
 
2014-01-07 12:17:47 AM  
Something tells me people didn't finish the article because of all the comments. She finishes saying her mother was stupid and vaccinating children is important, because all those preventable illnesses she had as a child is something she doesn't want her children to have.

/Stupid tag should be replaced by hero tag.
// Jenny Mccarthy can suck it.
 
2014-01-07 12:52:16 AM  

mediablitz: I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet: no sugar till I was 1, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, no MSG, no additives, no aspartame

There is nothing healthy about giving children raw milk.


Tell that to my dad who can't drink all the growth hormones, etc that wind up in milk due to all the stuff put in cows to make them have more meat etc.  Gluten may cause ER visits.  But his allergies cause 4 hour stopovers in restrooms off the interstate while owners scream and pull their hair while praying he'll stop polluting the air and toilet soon.

Dressing- hah.  He's back to mayonnaise which was the sole dressing for the longest time.  At that he has to spend it at a place with 100 percent natural foods. If the label says "natural flavors" voila, he'll get sick if he eats it.  "natural" are flavorings made to taste like they're natural.  If it doesn't say specifically where the flavor comes from, it's not 100 percent natural.

He has to pre-make meals at home for any road trips he takes.  Most of them in the modified van he saved up for so he could have a refrigerator and kitchen. About the only restaurant that won't hurt him is Cracker Barrel. And he's ticked at them now.

Preservatives are in the same category.  If there is one out there that won't hurt him, he hasn't found it.

Hell, he thought he finally found a brand of Olive Oil he could eat.  Then the FDA ordered the company to put preservatives in it or be fined.  And Olive Oil is a preservative. He didn't find out until he had to spend 2 nights in a hotel because his stomach wouldn't let him get on the road.
 
2014-01-07 01:37:59 AM  

cwolf20: mediablitz: I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet: no sugar till I was 1, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, no MSG, no additives, no aspartame

There is nothing healthy about giving children raw milk.

Tell that to my dad who can't drink all the growth hormones, etc that wind up in milk due to all the stuff put in cows to make them have more meat etc.  Gluten may cause ER visits.  But his allergies cause 4 hour stopovers in restrooms off the interstate while owners scream and pull their hair while praying he'll stop polluting the air and toilet soon.

Dressing- hah.  He's back to mayonnaise which was the sole dressing for the longest time.  At that he has to spend it at a place with 100 percent natural foods. If the label says "natural flavors" voila, he'll get sick if he eats it.  "natural" are flavorings made to taste like they're natural.  If it doesn't say specifically where the flavor comes from, it's not 100 percent natural.

He has to pre-make meals at home for any road trips he takes.  Most of them in the modified van he saved up for so he could have a refrigerator and kitchen. About the only restaurant that won't hurt him is Cracker Barrel. And he's ticked at them now.

Preservatives are in the same category.  If there is one out there that won't hurt him, he hasn't found it.

Hell, he thought he finally found a brand of Olive Oil he could eat.  Then the FDA ordered the company to put preservatives in it or be fined.  And Olive Oil is a preservative. He didn't find out until he had to spend 2 nights in a hotel because his stomach wouldn't let him get on the road.


Sounds like he needs to get his intestinal flora checked...
 
2014-01-07 02:59:32 AM  

MeanJean: untaken_name: I was fully vaccinated and still spent much of my childhood sick. Your move.

With what?


Diseases. I'm not a chick; I didn't keep a journal.
 
2014-01-07 03:23:41 AM  

FrancoFile: Coach McGirk: InterruptingQuirk: PsiChick: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: breastfed for over a year

[media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com image 634x834]

...Uh, over a year is  not that long. WHO recommends continuing breastfeeding until about age two, although children tend to self-wean when they're ready, anywhere from six months to two years old.

All 5 of my kids self-weaned ~15 months.

Mine was weaned at nine months. When she started on solid food, I switched to formula. But I was always of the mind that if they are old enough to ask for it? Then its time to wean them off the boob.

It's really time when they can ask for it in writing.  With proper grammar and punctuation.


Really?  This argument again?
It's time to wean when mom and baby are both ready.

It's hard enough to be a nursing mother, trying to do the absolute best for a tiny baby in a world filled with conflicting information WITHOUT having to deal with nasty, uninformed, unwelcome attitudes.

My baby, my milk, my business.

Now if I ask you for advice, please, advise to the best of your ability without judging. 

Otherwise, shut up.
 
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