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(Slate)   A child who grew up unvaccinated because of her parents' hippy lifestyle recalls how much of her youth she spent sick. She doesn't have autism now, though, so there's that   (slate.com ) divider line
    More: Stupid, autism, innate immune system, Queen Elizabeth I, youths  
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12806 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Jan 2014 at 1:00 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-06 02:19:03 PM  

dynomutt: Drop a washed pre-1965 quarter into the milk bottle. 90% Silver is anti-microbial.



Assuming for the sake of argument that the anti-microbial properties of silver are everything you claim them to be, please explain how doing this would sanitize the milk. It seems to me that the only thing you'd be guaranteed to have is a pathogen-free quarter after you've removed it from the milk. Wouldn't you have to ensure that every bacterium floating in the bottle comes into contact with the surface of the coin? How would you accomplish that?

Failing that, please admit you're trolling.
 
2014-01-06 02:23:45 PM  
Excellent article! It's a great example of looking at the results from 'the other side', which is why we developed vaccinations and other medical treatments ages ago.

Your great-grandparents probably had immune systems that were as strong as a battleship -- but all that healthy living tended to shorten their lives and as transportation devices became better and cheaper, they came in contact with more people from far away, who brought with them diseases they hadn't been exposed to.

Herbal stuff is great. It served as the primary medicines for centuries. However, it took scientists and sophisticated equipment to extract and condense the desired substances into pill form so you didn't need to drink a gallon of weak tea for a headache or eat a pound of weeds every 12 hours for bowel problems.

Pasteurization emerged for two primary reasons: food preservation and to stop the spread of disease. I guess the deaths of hundreds of thousands over the years from infected raw milk from healthy cows just isn't enough proof.

Rickets, a disease caused by the lack of Vitamin D which softens the long bones during childhood, causing a kids legs to bow like those of a career cowboys from 100 years ago, was eliminated by the government requiring D to be added to milk. Then they slapped price controls on the stuff for schools to make sure kids could get all of the healthy, calcium rich, Ricketts fighting moo juice dirt cheap.

Within a decade, Ricketts became a disease mainly talked about and probably never seen by the average parent.

No matter how rough and tough and 'natural' a lifestyle you live, there are diseases which you can get easily. Many lurk in that organic, rich soil you walk over, some of which even get into those insecticide free, organically grown, nutritious and delicious veggies you wolf down smugly.

Even most of those 'Survivorman' type shows on TV pause to warn you that some organic things need to be prepared carefully before eating. (Pull off the heads of grasshoppers to extract the guts, then roast before eating because parasites often lurk in them. Cook the krap out of that water plant that Hawaiian poi is made from because it contains an acid that turns the tuber into basically sand-like crystals. Cooking destroys the acid and softens the nutritious flesh. Don't eat the 'greens' of certain healthy veggies -- like carrots -- because they contain a weak poison. The same with the green leafs of potatoes. The original version of Eggplant was poison. Careful breeding made it a safe, tasty veggie.)

In my day, mom's had 'exposure parties', meaning if your kid caught the Measles, other Moms brought their uninfected kids over for a play date, to deliberate infect them to get the disease over with while they were young. The same with what used to be known as 'Yellow Jaundice' a mild form of Hepatitis.

Now, you get a vaccination and don't get the 'joy' of having to suffer though Measles for real.

There's nothing wrong with a healthy lifestyle -- just don't be stupid. Remember, those who were forced to actually live it 150 years ago, tended to die off more quickly. They didn't have the medications we do today.

BTW. Tetanus (Lockjaw) was a danger then. The disease locked your jaws shut and caused other painful muscle spasms. Treatment consisted of the Dr knocking out your front teeth so you could drink liquids or else you'd starve to death before the disease ran its course.

Now, you get a quick, simple vaccination, renewed every decade or so. Much more pleasant than having someone use a hammer, chisel and pliers to knock out your teeth and then having to sip broths between muscle spasms for the next couple of weeks.
 
2014-01-06 02:24:27 PM  

cirby: Voiceofreason01:
UHT does change the taste of dairy. The biggest advantage is that UHT treated milk lasts longer and doesn't need to be refrigerated.

They even upped the temps on regular pasteurization, so most "normal" non-UHT milk tastes a little burned now.



Check your label, there's "pasteurized" and then there's "ultra pasteurized". The latter's heated to a higher temperature, but held there for a shorter time.
 
2014-01-06 02:25:16 PM  

Millennium: kbronsito: We ate (organic local) meat maybe once or twice a week,

Before all the haters show up... I just wanted to point out that at least these people weren't vegans.

No, they were something even worse: locavores.


i know
we should all strive to eat from walmart
 
2014-01-06 02:25:51 PM  

Voiceofreason01: kvinesknows: Voiceofreason01: kvinesknows: LOL.  just look at all the sluts coming out of the closet to defend this woman.

1/10

/I can appreciate the desire to troll a thread like this but this is the best you could come up with? Really?

pfft... the initial post got 3 bites... :P

Fair enough but this one just made me feel bad for you....I assume that's not what you're going for?


I just want anyone to feel anything for me...
 
2014-01-06 02:31:08 PM  
So this is the first widely-published article from someone whose parents were anti-vaxxers, and predictably it's "I didn't get the shots, I got sick and it was awful." I hope more people with similar stories speak out. As she said, statistics and hard science aren't persuading anti-vaxxers, so maybe stories like hers will.
 
2014-01-06 02:34:02 PM  

InterruptingQuirk: Author


It's like someone shaved Bruce Vilanch.
 
2014-01-06 02:37:00 PM  

mediablitz: I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet: no sugar till I was 1, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, no MSG, no additives, no aspartame

There is nothing healthy about giving children rayou'reyou're


You're right about that. I grew up on a dairy farm, worked for a dairy. Before the milk comes in to be processed, it has to be tested for bacteria levels. Too much bacteria and pathogens, it gets rejected. There are lots of pathogens in raw milk.

Pasteurization came in for a reason!
 
2014-01-06 02:41:27 PM  

Mambo Bananapatch: Why Would I Read the Article: There are children who grew up for thousands of years without vaccinations and did just fine.  Overall, it's pretty clear that vaccinations are better than no vaccinations, but even when we did blatantly stupid things like bloodletting, the human race managed to survive just fine.

And Jenny McCarthy killed more kittens with her 1996 playboy spread than she killed children with her vaccinations nonsense.

Really? Do you mean that many people who saw her spread became uncontrollably aroused and had intercourse with the only handy, you know, thing -- a kitten, as it turned out -- and killed them by accident?  Because I can assure you nothing like that happened to me.


you sound new to the internet, check out the meme :)

https://www.google.com/search?q=everytime+you+masturbate+god+kills+a+ k itten&oq=every+time+you+m&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.4526j0j8&sourceid=chr ome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8">https://www.google.com/search?q=every time+you+masturbate+god+kills+a+k itten&oq=every+time+you+m&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.4526j0j8&sourceid=chr ome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8
 
2014-01-06 02:42:06 PM  

phaseolus: Assuming for the sake of argument that the anti-microbial properties of silver are everything you claim them to be, please explain how doing this would sanitize the milk. It seems to me that the only thing you'd be guaranteed to have is a pathogen-free quarter after you've removed it from the milk. Wouldn't you have to ensure that every bacterium floating in the bottle comes into contact with the surface of the coin? How would you accomplish that?


Actually, there is something to this one. It's called the oligodynamic effect, and it's why, for example, most doorknobs are made of brass (silver works better, but is more expensive). Metals like this are often used in filters for, for example, swimming pools, and the water tanks on ships and airplanes are often silvered too. That much has been documented for quite some time.

However, it is not magic. To effectively sanitize a container, your silver needs to have enough surface area, which is proportional to the size of the container and the amount of liquid in it. Unless you're willing to wait a really long time, you also need some way to circulate the liquid you're trying to sanitize. I'm not sure a silver quarter would be enough to sanitize a container of milk, and even if it were, you'd have to shake it up pretty strongly if you wanted to do it in a decent amount of time.
 
2014-01-06 02:46:32 PM  

Astorix: mediablitz: I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet: no sugar till I was 1, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, no MSG, no additives, no aspartame

There is nothing healthy about giving children rayou'reyou're

You're right about that. I grew up on a dairy farm, worked for a dairy. Before the milk comes in to be processed, it has to be tested for bacteria levels. Too much bacteria and pathogens, it gets rejected. There are lots of pathogens in raw milk.

Pasteurization came in for a reason!


Industrial processes don't generally become common knowledge among the general public, much less than that do their inventors become household names and hailed as heroes.

That Louis Pasteur's discovery of what we call Pasteurisation did both of those things is a pretty strong testament to how much of an impact his discovery had and how dangerous the act of drinking milk was before it.

/That, and the rabies vaccine
//Pasteur was tha bawss
 
2014-01-06 02:46:36 PM  
Parents who refused to give their children vaccinations should be force-neutered.
 
2014-01-06 02:50:30 PM  
Awesome article about the move to pasteurized milk in Toronto:

http://torontoist.com/2013/11/historicist-if-its-city-dairy-its-clea n- and-pure-thats-sure/

although I suppose it could be seen more generally as an article about the value of proper government oversight.
 
2014-01-06 02:55:51 PM  

Rik01: ...
Herbal stuff is great. It served as the primary medicines for centuries. However, it took scientists and sophisticated equipment to extract and condense the desired substances into pill form so you didn't need to drink a gallon of weak tea for a headache or eat a pound of weeds every 12 hours for bowel problems....


Farking A this.

I swear this is a constant conversation I am having with mothers my wife knows (why is it always the mom?  Do Dads also have similar anti-vaxxer medi-quack desires?  Do they not speak up? Always wondered that...)

It gets really old when they say that all these medications came from plants anyway so eating the plants must be better because organic.  When I reply with exactly what you say above the reaction is usually a swift subject change.

Same with vitamins, only this goes the other direction.  I don't understand how people can think that vitamins are a bottomless fountain of healthy living.  Any more than one multivitamin a day for the vast majority of people creates nothing but expensive urine.  Nothing.  All those dietary supplements in the vast majority of cases (except like, Iron when your pregnant or other unique individual cases) do exactly jack + squat added together.

Its really infuriating how fast people will discard decades of some of the most proven and validated aspects of modern medicine because they went to some damn talk and a random guy with glasses who sounded smart said that XYZ is bad/good for you.

Read people.  For the sake of your kids, learn how to discern good/bad information and bloody read.
 
2014-01-06 02:56:02 PM  

Robo Beat: Astorix: mediablitz: I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet: no sugar till I was 1, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, no MSG, no additives, no aspartame

There is nothing healthy about giving children rayou'reyou're

You're right about that. I grew up on a dairy farm, worked for a dairy. Before the milk comes in to be processed, it has to be tested for bacteria levels. Too much bacteria and pathogens, it gets rejected. There are lots of pathogens in raw milk.

Pasteurization came in for a reason!

Industrial processes don't generally become common knowledge among the general public, much less than that do their inventors become household names and hailed as heroes.

That Louis Pasteur's discovery of what we call Pasteurisation did both of those things is a pretty strong testament to how much of an impact his discovery had and how dangerous the act of drinking milk was before it.

/That, and the rabies vaccine
//Pasteur was tha bawss



Pasteurization original application (too keep beer and wine from going bad) was even more amazing that it's eventual adoption by the milk industry.
 
2014-01-06 02:59:00 PM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: breastfed for over a year

[media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com image 634x834]


...Uh, over a year is  not that long. WHO recommends continuing breastfeeding until about age two, although children tend to self-wean when they're ready, anywhere from six months to two years old.
 
2014-01-06 03:08:41 PM  
I drew the pic for another thread... but I couldn't help but use it here.  :)

img197.imageshack.us
 
2014-01-06 03:08:54 PM  

Robo Beat: InterruptingQuirk: Author

It's like someone shaved Bruce Vilanch.


I think she looks pretty good considering how much dermal scarring she should have following her life.
 
2014-01-06 03:09:09 PM  

Wicked Chinchilla: Its really infuriating how fast people will discard decades of some of the most proven and validated aspects of modern medicine because they went to some damn talk and a random guy with glasses who sounded smart said that XYZ is bad/good for you.


It's mostly for a sense of control.
The doctor gives your kid shots.
The USDA requires Vitamin D in the milk.
The school decides what they eat for lunch.
But by God, I'm going to make sure they get Lydia Pinkham's Vegetable Nostrum!!
 
2014-01-06 03:09:46 PM  

PsiChick: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: breastfed for over a year

[media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com image 634x834]

...Uh, over a year is  not that long. WHO recommends continuing breastfeeding until about age two, although children tend to self-wean when they're ready, anywhere from six months to two years old.


All 5 of my kids self-weaned ~15 months.
 
2014-01-06 03:11:28 PM  

chairmenmeow47: Mambo Bananapatch: Why Would I Read the Article: There are children who grew up for thousands of years without vaccinations and did just fine.  Overall, it's pretty clear that vaccinations are better than no vaccinations, but even when we did blatantly stupid things like bloodletting, the human race managed to survive just fine.

And Jenny McCarthy killed more kittens with her 1996 playboy spread than she killed children with her vaccinations nonsense.

Really? Do you mean that many people who saw her spread became uncontrollably aroused and had intercourse with the only handy, you know, thing -- a kitten, as it turned out -- and killed them by accident?  Because I can assure you nothing like that happened to me.

you sound new to the internet, check out the meme :)

https://www.google.com/search?q=everytime+you+masturbate+god+kills+a+ k itten&oq=every+time+you+m&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.4526j0j8&sourceid=chr ome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8">https://www.google.com/search?q=every time+you+masturbate+god+kills+a+k itten&oq=every+time+you+m&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.4526j0j8&sourceid=chr ome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8


Wow! So...really, it's kind of like what I was talking about. Sort of.
 
2014-01-06 03:13:34 PM  

Astorix: You're right about that. I grew up on a dairy farm, worked for a dairy. Before the milk comes in to be processed, it has to be tested for bacteria levels. Too much bacteria and pathogens, it gets rejected. There are lots of pathogens in raw milk.

Pasteurization came in for a reason!


blah blah blah.  Another shill for Big Pastuer.  Needlessly killing innocent bacteria to line your pockets!
 
2014-01-06 03:14:33 PM  
Bravo subby. Made me chuckle.
 
2014-01-06 03:15:27 PM  

yakmans_dad: It isn't only hippies who are anti-vax. [ex-hippie here. kids,self, and wife were vaccinated for anything. Even mopery.]   In fact, hippiness doesn't have anything to do with the attitude.

It's paranoia.  Which, iirc, is an equal opportunity, pan-politics, condition.


Around here there are two groups firmly in the anti-vax camp: wealthy white yuppies (check out the terrifyingly low vax rates in Marin County) and fundie types. Our son's nannyshare partner is in the first group, so I'm going to need to kick him out of my house when our new baby comes.
 
2014-01-06 03:31:04 PM  
I wasn't even allowed pop; even my fresh juice was watered down to protect my teeth, and I would've killed for white, shop-bought bread in my lunchbox once in a while and biscuits instead of fruit, like all the other kids.
We ate (organic local) meat maybe once or twice a week, and my mother and father cooked everything from scratch-I have yet to taste a Findus crispy pancake, and oven chips ("fries," to Americans) were reserved for those nights when Mum and Dad had friends over and we got a "treat."

As healthy as my lifestyle seemed, I contracted measles, mumps, rubella, a type of viral meningitis, scarlatina, whooping cough, yearly tonsillitis, and chickenpox. In my 20s I got precancerous HPV


So at least she got all the cock she wanted so there's that.
 
2014-01-06 03:38:20 PM  
Time for my fave site!

http://thanatos.net/

Look at all those little kids, sound asleep in their coffins.

It's a Victorian post-mortem photography site. This might be the only picture of the child, so it was 'the last look'. Kids were made up to look like they were asleep. A few were posed with their eyes open, so they'd look alert and awake.

And you know what killed most of them? Measles, diptheria, whooping cough...the same things we vaccinate for today.
 
2014-01-06 03:39:14 PM  

OscarTamerz: So at least she got all the cock she wanted so there's that.


You're too late for the slut-shaming troll, Kvineknows beat you to it, but if it's any consolation yours was less obvious.
 
2014-01-06 03:39:33 PM  
Dear most of the people who like "all-natural" stuff and therapies like acupuncture because you think they did such great things for Chinese people 2500 years ago:

The life expectancy when acupuncture was at its height was several decades shorter than it is now.  If goji berries and coffee enemas and goji berry and coffee enemas were better than Western medicine, these people in the past would not have died so early.

Duh.
 
2014-01-06 03:40:02 PM  

dynomutt: Bullshiat.  Raw milk is a living food.  Pasteurized milk is just cow piss


The "living" bit is the crux of the problem, when there is a problem. A freshly-laid pile of shiat is "living". as well, but I wouldn't eat it.
 
2014-01-06 03:43:06 PM  
All the anti vaxxer parents oddly enough had all their shots and grew up healthy, they just decided they would be "better" people if they raised kids as if they were in the middle ages.
 
2014-01-06 03:46:34 PM  
Ultra high temperature pasteurized milk is heated to a temperature that will start caramelizing the sugars which is why is has a slightly sweeter taste and darker color.  I personally don't like the taste of it because I grew up on standard pasteurization.

Minerals are not destroyed by pasteurization.  Most of the vitamins in the milk are pretty heat stable, and the beneficial enzymes that the raw milk people think they're getting are destroyed in your stomach.  Also cow enzymes and horomones won't work in humans because we don't have the correct substrates or receptors for them.  It kills me how many people do not understand these basic tenants of science.
 
2014-01-06 03:51:54 PM  
Drink up raw milkers.

I'm certain the cow it came from didn't have tuberculosis.

That farmer was obviously a doctor, who tested the cow for disease in his laboratory before giving it to you.


Smokers, you should increase your intake by 3 packs a day.
 

E-Cigs, try not to think that the nicotine came from bulk insecticide being re purposed because the synthetic became cheaper. It's regulated and tested not to kill you, and certainly not motivated by profit and people who don't care about your health. Smoke as much as you can. You should really switch to real cigarettes.

Don't get vaccinated.

Organic usually doesn't mean it was recently covered in feces, sometimes human. But that's OK because it is traditional oriental farming.
 
2014-01-06 03:52:30 PM  

dynomutt: DNRTFA

Bullshiat.  Raw milk is a living food.  Pasteurized milk is just cow piss.

The trick to avoiding Listeria etc. in raw milk, is to

1. Understand where you're sourcing the raw milk from and their practices.  No shiat, Sherlock.
2. Drop a washed pre-1965 quarter into the milk bottle.  90% Silver is anti-microbial.

As to the vaccinations, remember the root of vacc- is "cow", and the vaccines are done to provide "herd effect" immunity.  As such, the mistake the hippies obviously made was sending the kid to public school.  They should have home-schooled the kid, too.

Half-assed hippies, if you ask me...


Unless you somehow are having every drop of that milk coming into contact with that quarter, that isn't going to do anything.
 
2014-01-06 03:59:18 PM  
This woman's story is a good counter to the people who seem to think that as long as you "live healthy," you don't need vaccines. All the healthy eating in the world isn't going to prevent an infection.

cowgirl toffee: I drew the pic for another thread... but I couldn't help but use it here.  :)

[img197.imageshack.us image 601x473]


Don't worry, MS Paint wears off after a few weeks.
 
2014-01-06 04:04:07 PM  

blondski: Ultra high temperature pasteurized milk is heated to a temperature that will start caramelizing the sugars which is why is has a slightly sweeter taste and darker color.  I personally don't like the taste of it because I grew up on standard pasteurization.

Minerals are not destroyed by pasteurization.  Most of the vitamins in the milk are pretty heat stable, and the beneficial enzymes that the raw milk people think they're getting are destroyed in your stomach.  Also cow enzymes and horomones won't work in humans because we don't have the correct substrates or receptors for them.  It kills me how many people do not understand these basic tenants of science.


Tenets. Or perhaps that's a subtroll.
 
2014-01-06 04:04:48 PM  

hstein3: ...

Don't worry, MS Paint wears off after a few weeks.


Yep... but then comes the cold sweats and withdraw.. O_o
 
2014-01-06 04:12:39 PM  

mbillips: They died like flies. Infant mortality in the 19th century was about ten times what it is now, and epidemics used to lay waste whole generations of small children.


Because few children lived to adulthood, children tended to be treated poorly until the last couple of centuries. They were a bother and they weren't worth investing time in until nearly grown. They were banned from hospitals both because they were carriers and they weren't worth the effort.
 
2014-01-06 04:14:03 PM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: "The roommate of me"?  Is English your second language, or are you a bot?


She's the Best in the World
 
2014-01-06 04:14:16 PM  
There's nothing unhealthy about it, as long as you get it straight from a hand-milked cow that sees the vet regularly, refrigerate it immediately, and drink it within a week (or buy it from someone who does all that). Pasteurization is required because of the way commercially produced milk is gathered, transported and stored. Bad germs lurk in milking machines, not in a tin bucket that you wash in hot water and detergent before every use.

They can do all that, and kids still have horrible problems with it, like total kidney failure. In WA/OR last year there were a bunch of kids that got whacked by raw milk. The producers did all that and more.

<shrug>

Not worth it, IMO. But if you're willing to live with giving your kids a lifetime of problems for little to no benefit, go for it.
 
2014-01-06 04:20:44 PM  
1. Kids did not do "just fine" before vaccinations. Many never made it to adulthood. Hell, it's still a tradition in some cultures to have a huge celebration for making it your first birthday

2. "vacc-"guy: Google cowpox
 
2014-01-06 04:28:40 PM  
As already posted way up the thread; go visit a Victorian era cemetery sometime. See how many kids under the age of 4 or 5 are buried. LOTS of them. I know because I have ancestors buried in some and others on homesteaded lands 200 years ago that I've visited. In lieu of a newspaper obit, often I would see the cause of death chiseled into the headstones. Diptheria....measles...fever.... In some cases around the world, bodies were put in mass graves and burned, although I don't know of anyone I'm related to over history as having been subject to that.

People had tons of children to keep the family lines going and for farm help. Or future Union soldiers. Or a myriad of other reasons. The anti-vax folks drive me up the wall. Case in point; at an old family cemetery in Nor CA, there's a couple relatives of mine that both died within days of each other at 2 years old from diptheria in the 1870s. Tuberculosis and pertussis was pretty rampant at the time there too. Now I'm not going to blame the AV-ers directly, as they'll just be victims, but for whatever reason those childhood diseases are still swirling around. And guess who gets sick? They do. In fact one documented case of a child with whooping cough that sent a small panic around was a friend of my GF who is very vocal anti-vaxxer. That kid missed half of the school year due to various illnesses. And that damn woman is STILL against vaccines (the school has since kicked the kid out due to not having a vaccination record).

Not only does vaccination help insure that your kid lives if they contract something or another, it helps with other diseases that come about from things such as injuries from farm and building equipment or various wars or just doing basic life operations. Animal bites and stings is another entry method. Poorly cooked or raw food. That's something relatives from centuries past have had to deal with. I have a cousin that almost didn't make it from a rattlesnake bite 30 years ago. Having a vaccine ready at a rural clinic (the county sheriff had to deliver it from another hospital) kept him breathing as it was a 2 hour drive to the closest clinic. Just another example from personal experiences.

If you want to have a more agrarian, simplistic lifestyle, have at it if that makes you happy and healthy. We can all strive to be healthier or at least learn to moderate. But as another poster said: don't be stupid. And I'll add to that, don't get in my face and argue with me about it either. That's also unhealthy.  If your unvaccinated child gets another sick because of your choice, then you deserve what's coming to you from that pissed off parent.
 
2014-01-06 04:30:18 PM  
phaseolus:
Check your label, there's "pasteurized" and then there's "ultra pasteurized". The latter's heated to a higher temperature, but held there for a shorter time.

That's the problem - all of the milk I can find is "ultra." Or at least regular milk that they ran through the old process for a longer time. Yeah, they do that (there's a milk processing plant a block from my house, so I get to talk to some of the employees, who admit that pretty much every processing plant is going for longer/hotter pasteurization just in case). There's not a lot of milk producers who use 1960s-style pasteurization any more.
 
2014-01-06 04:33:09 PM  

inner ted: Millennium: kbronsito: We ate (organic local) meat maybe once or twice a week,

Before all the haters show up... I just wanted to point out that at least these people weren't vegans.

No, they were something even worse: locavores.

i know
we should all strive to eat from walmart


Yeah, that's what he's saying. Calm down.
 
2014-01-06 04:34:28 PM  
Give it a decade. Polio will make a come back this side of the Atlantic and we'll all be saying "I told ya so" from our iron lungs.

But I'm glad this woman is getting her kids vacced up.
 
2014-01-06 04:34:53 PM  

stuhayes2010: mediablitz: I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet: no sugar till I was 1, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, no MSG, no additives, no aspartame

There is nothing healthy about giving children raw milk.

You should inform France and Germany where most milk is raw.  Two whole modern countries need your knowledge.


Having shopped for and consumed a lot of milk in Germany, I can safely say your statement is crap.
 
2014-01-06 04:35:01 PM  
I picked up chickenpox and mumps just before there were vaccines widely available and to this day the mumps in particular caused me the most intense physical pain I have ever experienced. I thought my neck was going to split open and grow gills.

Besides, kids pick up every disease in creation without our help, so the least we can do is head off the easily-preventable ones.
 
2014-01-06 04:38:22 PM  
Also what parents still think it's a good idea to have "Chickenpox Parties" in lieu of of the vaccination? Do they not know how shingles develop?
 
2014-01-06 04:40:18 PM  

Gulper Eel: I picked up chickenpox and mumps just before there were vaccines widely available and to this day the mumps in particular caused me the most intense physical pain I have ever experienced. I thought my neck was going to split open and grow gills.

Besides, kids pick up every disease in creation without our help, so the least we can do is head off the easily-preventable ones.


Christ, in the decade-plus I worked with kids, I think I've been exposed to just about every virus known to man, with maybe the exception of ebola. I've developed a cast-iron immune system.
 
2014-01-06 04:42:23 PM  

Millennium: phaseolus: Assuming for the sake of argument that the anti-microbial properties of silver are everything you claim them to be, please explain how doing this would sanitize the milk. It seems to me that the only thing you'd be guaranteed to have is a pathogen-free quarter after you've removed it from the milk. Wouldn't you have to ensure that every bacterium floating in the bottle comes into contact with the surface of the coin? How would you accomplish that?

Actually, there is something to this one. It's called the oligodynamic effect, and it's why, for example, most doorknobs are made of brass (silver works better, but is more expensive). Metals like this are often used in filters for, for example, swimming pools, and the water tanks on ships and airplanes are often silvered too. That much has been documented for quite some time.

However, it is not magic. To effectively sanitize a container, your silver needs to have enough surface area, which is proportional to the size of the container and the amount of liquid in it. Unless you're willing to wait a really long time, you also need some way to circulate the liquid you're trying to sanitize. I'm not sure a silver quarter would be enough to sanitize a container of milk, and even if it were, you'd have to shake it up pretty strongly if you wanted to do it in a decent amount of time.


You could make a fine mesh filter out of silver and use that. Make it a few layers, woven fairly tight, and you'd have lots of surface area and a pretty slow flow. It would be a good bit more trouble than many other methods, but it would be a practical way to do metal ion sanitation for raw milk.
 
2014-01-06 04:48:42 PM  

AngryPanda: inner ted: Millennium: kbronsito: We ate (organic local) meat maybe once or twice a week,

Before all the haters show up... I just wanted to point out that at least these people weren't vegans.

No, they were something even worse: locavores.

i know
we should all strive to eat from walmart

Yeah, that's what he's saying. Calm down.


feel free to enlighten me then
& whew
thanks for talking me off the ledge
 
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