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(Townhall)   The Battle of the Bulge proved that we weren't winning WWII and that the Germans weren't on the run   (townhall.com) divider line 115
    More: Obvious, Battle of the Bulge, Major Victory, al-Qaeda, Iraq, Anbar Province, Anbar, Ramadi, David Limbaugh  
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2826 clicks; posted to Politics » on 06 Jan 2014 at 12:54 PM (34 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-06 01:32:13 PM

TheShavingofOccam123: trotsky: Maud Dib: Good fiction book about the Battle of the Bulge.


[jacketupload.macmillanusa.com image 403x648]

Fark you, subby, and fark you, modmins for greenlighting this crap.

The Bulge was so messed up. Hitler put all of his remaining eggs to an attack that relied on a non-existent supply system and the weather. Most scholars tend to think he shortened the Reich's time because he routed all these units West instead of East, where they should have been against the Soviets. Some even go so far as to posit that the post-war world may have changed because the Allies would have been able to take much more of Germany if the East had had the units Hitler sent to their doom in the Ardennes.

What I never understood was why the Allies would think the Germans would never repeat what they had already done twice in the 20th century--rapidly push out of the Ardennes and head West ASAP. The last time they did it was in 1939.

I understand about believing the Nazis were spent but to not cover their warm traditional path of welcome is unbelievable.


The same reason that they attempted the disaster of Market Garden.

The assumption that the Germans were broken and the Allies were simply looking to throw the KO punch.

The winter of 1944-45 was supposed to be about getting forces ready and in position to march into German against minimal resistance.

Ironically, that position was largely true after the Ardennes Offensive failed miserably on a strategic level.

Also, the Western Allies were stretched fairly thin in the fall of 1944 (long supply lines, too much territory occupied too quickly, etc). They didn't have the resources to cover the entire front, so somewhere had to be left thin. Why not the place with the greatest terrain advantage?
 
2014-01-06 01:33:43 PM

OnlyM3: Obama's been retreating on all fronts. Why not this one too?


There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq until Bush invaded.
 
2014-01-06 01:34:21 PM
It's been true since Roman times--if you want to find a German army, look in the forest.
 
2014-01-06 01:35:00 PM

macross87: "War is Hell"

- Bill Murray


Rand Paul

Fixed.
 
2014-01-06 01:36:22 PM
So I guess we need to go back to Iraq and fix the problem. Then we should cut taxes to pay for it. Because this time I'm so sure it will work. We just need to shoot more freedom.
 
2014-01-06 01:37:43 PM

Vlad_the_Inaner: thamike: [mentalfloss.com image 640x430]


If I repeatedly bash your face into this, it looks like a f*cking hot dog.  Or else.

[i.imgur.com image 366x270]

Is it a boat?


It's a Schooner.
 
2014-01-06 01:38:03 PM

TheShavingofOccam123: It's been true since Roman times--if you want to find a German army, look in the forest.


VARRO GIVE ME BACK MY OBAMACARE!
 
2014-01-06 01:38:47 PM

trotsky: TheShavingofOccam123: trotsky: Maud Dib: Good fiction book about the Battle of the Bulge.


[jacketupload.macmillanusa.com image 403x648]

Fark you, subby, and fark you, modmins for greenlighting this crap.

The Bulge was so messed up. Hitler put all of his remaining eggs to an attack that relied on a non-existent supply system and the weather. Most scholars tend to think he shortened the Reich's time because he routed all these units West instead of East, where they should have been against the Soviets. Some even go so far as to posit that the post-war world may have changed because the Allies would have been able to take much more of Germany if the East had had the units Hitler sent to their doom in the Ardennes.

What I never understood was why the Allies would think the Germans would never repeat what they had already done twice in the 20th century--rapidly push out of the Ardennes and head West ASAP. The last time they did it was in 1939.

I understand about believing the Nazis were spent but to not cover their warm traditional path of welcome is unbelievable.

Allied Intelligence knew something was up. By this point the Germans had began to adapt to the lack of the Luftwaffe by hiding their force build-ups. The Ardennes luckily had plenty of cover. Like the Chinese attack in Northern Korea in 1950, nobody at the top believed it would happen. The Germans were damn lucky and almost did what they set out to do. Guts and some balls prevented them.


Not really. The Germans stood to make huge local gains, but they weren't in any position to make any real strategic gains (such as closing Antwerp), let alone convince the West to agree to a negotiated peace. The best result of the Ardennes Offensive was likely a delayed Western invasion of Germany and more territory occupied by the Soviets.

Like the Spring Offensive in 1918, they could win battles and take land, but they weren't going anywhere that would win them the war.
 
2014-01-06 01:39:34 PM
Gee, it's almost like Republicans shouldn't have lied us into getting entangled in a completely unnecessary war in Iraq in the first place.
 
2014-01-06 01:41:09 PM
The funny thing is that I bet a lot of GOP morons would try to argue, with a straight face, that the ACA is a bigger policy blunder than the Bush Administration's Iraq war.
 
2014-01-06 01:42:10 PM

flondrix: OnlyM3: Obama's been retreating on all fronts. Why not this one too?

There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq until Bush invaded.


Yep. Militants will sneak in the minute the stable, though evil, guy in charge is deposed.
 
2014-01-06 01:44:48 PM

Chummer45: The funny thing is that I bet a lot of GOP morons would try to argue, with a straight face, that the ACA is a bigger policy blunder than the Bush Administration's Iraq war.


While saying that Obama doesn't get credit for getting out of Iraq because it was Bush's plan and it is entirely Obama's fault for the rise in violence since then. While screaming "b-b-b-but Bush" every time anyone points out how his policies had an impact beyound November 4, 2008.
 
2014-01-06 01:45:32 PM

trotsky: Jesus Christ, these people. Bush and his band of merry morons entered into the country with absolutely no plans for the termination of the conflict. Even the goddamn JCS and most of the top brass had zero idea on how to end it, or for that matter how to fight it. That's why 5,000 American lost their lives: because the Bush Administration and the top commanders had no idea what they were going to encounter and absolutely no plans to end the farking war.

I really do think these people are morons of the highest caliber.


Actually, it's worse than that.  They drew up the plans back during the FIRST Gulf War, Cheney and Rumsfield.  They successfully predicted then how many troops they would need to occupy Iraq, what they would need to secure, the problems with sectarian violence, and the need to preserve the Iraqi army.  Then they ignored all of that when they finally had the chance to invade 10 years later.
 
2014-01-06 01:48:14 PM

thamike: If I repeatedly bash your face into this, it looks like a f*cking hot dog.  Or else.


It's actually a bunch of ripples in the background..  Seriously.  I've always been good at seeing these pictures.
 
2014-01-06 01:50:17 PM
Hey, there's a civil war in Iraq. Did Sen. McCain and Sen. Graham not get the memo?
 
2014-01-06 01:50:45 PM
TheShavingofOccam123
That isn't to say Obama pushed to keep troops there; he did.

I'm going to go ahead and predict that this will be the 'official' Democratic Party response (meaning, the one pushed by all the Very Serious People in the party leadership)- not that this is the Republicans' fault and everything the anti-war people said would happen is happening, but that Obama DID try to keep the troops in Iraq.


Superjew
Not sending the whole gang to the Hague on Jan 21st 2008 was the biggest mistake of the Obama Presidency.

People keep calling these kinds of things "mistakes" instead of recognizing that they are successes.
 
2014-01-06 01:50:53 PM

Satanic_Hamster: trotsky: Jesus Christ, these people. Bush and his band of merry morons entered into the country with absolutely no plans for the termination of the conflict. Even the goddamn JCS and most of the top brass had zero idea on how to end it, or for that matter how to fight it. That's why 5,000 American lost their lives: because the Bush Administration and the top commanders had no idea what they were going to encounter and absolutely no plans to end the farking war.

I really do think these people are morons of the highest caliber.

Actually, it's worse than that.  They drew up the plans back during the FIRST Gulf War, Cheney and Rumsfield.  They successfully predicted then how many troops they would need to occupy Iraq, what they would need to secure, the problems with sectarian violence, and the need to preserve the Iraqi army.  Then they ignored all of that when they finally had the chance to invade 10 years later.


It's way worse than that. Remember Dick Cheney was involved in the first Iraq War.

"Now you can say, well, you should have gone to Baghdad and gotten Saddam. I don't think so. I think if we had done that we would have been bogged down there for a very long period of time with the real possibility we might not have succeeded. "
 
2014-01-06 01:51:52 PM

Phil McKraken: Satanic_Hamster: trotsky: Jesus Christ, these people. Bush and his band of merry morons entered into the country with absolutely no plans for the termination of the conflict. Even the goddamn JCS and most of the top brass had zero idea on how to end it, or for that matter how to fight it. That's why 5,000 American lost their lives: because the Bush Administration and the top commanders had no idea what they were going to encounter and absolutely no plans to end the farking war.

I really do think these people are morons of the highest caliber.

Actually, it's worse than that.  They drew up the plans back during the FIRST Gulf War, Cheney and Rumsfield.  They successfully predicted then how many troops they would need to occupy Iraq, what they would need to secure, the problems with sectarian violence, and the need to preserve the Iraqi army.  Then they ignored all of that when they finally had the chance to invade 10 years later.

It's way worse than that. Remember Dick Cheney was involved in the first Iraq War.

"Now you can say, well, you should have gone to Baghdad and gotten Saddam. I don't think so. I think if we had done that we would have been bogged down there for a very long period of time with the real possibility we might not have succeeded. "


I'll work on my reading comprehension, Satanic_Hamster.
 
2014-01-06 02:23:19 PM
www.regjans.com
 
2014-01-06 02:26:41 PM
It was the Bush administration that made the agreement with the Iraq government to withdraw American forces from Iraq by the end of 2011. Fallujah is Iraq's problem now and they're not asking for help. Do these Townhall people want another invasion of Iraq? Was Obama supposed to renege on the withdrawal agreement. The fact that Al Qaeda has a strong presence in Iraq shows why we should have left Saddam Hussein alone in the first place.
 
2014-01-06 02:28:53 PM

oryx: It was the Bush administration that made the agreement with the Iraq government to withdraw American forces from Iraq by the end of 2011. Fallujah is Iraq's problem now and they're not asking for help. Do these Townhall people want another invasion of Iraq? Was Obama supposed to renege on the withdrawal agreement. The fact that Al Qaeda has a strong presence in Iraq shows why we should have left Saddam Hussein alone in the first place.


Townhall wants boots on the ground so that they can be against the Democratic President sending troops into Iraq and then they can point hout how BSABVR.
 
2014-01-06 02:33:09 PM

Fart_Machine: Clownhall rooting for Al Qaeda?


Enemy of my enemy is my friend, right?
 
2014-01-06 02:40:13 PM
Just remember when it comes to Iraqi and Afghanistan:

cdn.head-fi.org
 
2014-01-06 02:41:53 PM
As a patriotic American, I could care less which group of Muslims owns Fallujah. I'm just grateful that no more of my fellow Americans are being killed and crippled over there. We never should have gone in the first place, the job was poorly planned and botched and now it is over.

Therefore it follows that I think any politician or writer making a fuss about this should just stop, because what they are actually advocating is killing more Americans.
 
2014-01-06 02:44:53 PM

coeyagi: RyogaM: Remember when Republicans said Obama didn't deserve any credit for withdrawing from Iraq because he was just following the agreement for withdraw that Bush made?  I guess that Surge wasn't as successful as you all thought it was, huh?

Get bent, Republicans.

Gas Prices Up:  Obama.
Gas Prices Down:  But but but presidents don't affect gas prices!

SSDI - same sh*t different issue


We Get Out of Iraq: Thanks Obama for getting us out!
We Get Out of Iraq, and Al Qaeda has a Big Win There: It was Bush's deal!

Same game goes both ways.
 
2014-01-06 02:51:38 PM

EWreckedSean: coeyagi: RyogaM: Remember when Republicans said Obama didn't deserve any credit for withdrawing from Iraq because he was just following the agreement for withdraw that Bush made?  I guess that Surge wasn't as successful as you all thought it was, huh?

Get bent, Republicans.

Gas Prices Up:  Obama.
Gas Prices Down:  But but but presidents don't affect gas prices!

SSDI - same sh*t different issue

We Get Out of Iraq: Thanks Obama for getting us out!
We Get Out of Iraq, and Al Qaeda has a Big Win There: It was Bush's deal!

Same game goes both ways.


Your mind: Where this is true.
Reality: Where this is potato.

varmitydog: As a patriotic American, I could care less which group of Muslims owns Fallujah. I'm just grateful that no more of my fellow Americans are being killed and crippled over there. We never should have gone in the first place, the job was poorly planned and botched and now it is over.

Therefore it follows that I think any politician or writer making a fuss about this should just stop, because what they are actually advocating is killing more Americans.


^This^
 
2014-01-06 02:55:10 PM

joonyer: Your mind: Where this is true.
Reality: Where this is potato.


I love partisan people. They actually convince themselves that it is all the other guy.
 
2014-01-06 02:59:43 PM

EWreckedSean: coeyagi: RyogaM: Remember when Republicans said Obama didn't deserve any credit for withdrawing from Iraq because he was just following the agreement for withdraw that Bush made?  I guess that Surge wasn't as successful as you all thought it was, huh?

Get bent, Republicans.

Gas Prices Up:  Obama.
Gas Prices Down:  But but but presidents don't affect gas prices!

SSDI - same sh*t different issue

We Get Out of Iraq: Thanks Obama for getting us out!
We Get Out of Iraq, and Al Qaeda has a Big Win There: It was Bush's deal!

Same game goes both ways.


This is kinda a retarded statement, ace.

Bush got us into this mess.  Bush signed the deal to get us out and Obama kept the deal.
Only in your ravenous, craven, rabid mind do us libs give Obama sole credit for getting us out of Iraq.
But no one can argue who got us the f*ck in.  Regardless of who gets the credit for getting us out, we all know who is ultimately to blame for this happening - the asshole who lied us into war in the first place.
 
2014-01-06 03:01:28 PM

EWreckedSean: We Get Out of Iraq: Thanks Obama for getting us out!
We Get Out of Iraq, and Al Qaeda has a Big Win There: It was Bush's deal!

Same game goes both ways.


It goes one way.

Bush:  We're invading Iraq, dismantling the Baath party government, and dissolving the army!
People:  If we do that, we'll be stuck in the middle of a civil war that we have no business in!
Bush:  Nope!
Reality:  Yep!
Bush:  OK, we'll get out.
Obama:  We'll get out.
Republicans:  Slow going?  What gives?
Reality:  He's following the timeline.
Obama:  OK, we're out.
Republicans: Look what you got us out of!  We told you this would happen!
Everyone else: ???
Republicans: Nyeh!

So shove it.
 
2014-01-06 03:17:50 PM
Also, we could have won Vietnam if the government would just let the troops win.  Sure, we dropped more tonnage of bombs on Vietnam than all the nations in WWII dropped on each other combined, but we just weren't doing it enough.  Surely, if we had killed every single human in Vietnam then they would have no choice but to surrender.

Suck it, libs.
 
2014-01-06 03:27:14 PM
Stupid unnecessary wars cause problems that last decades down the line.  World doesn't reboot on change of administration in the U.S.  Idiot neoconservatives want to cause more problems.
 
2014-01-06 03:34:10 PM
i1.kym-cdn.com
 
2014-01-06 03:40:24 PM

RyogaM: Remember when Republicans said Obama didn't deserve any credit for withdrawing from Iraq because he was just following the agreement for withdraw that Bush made?  I guess that Surge wasn't as successful as you all thought it was, huh?

Get bent, Republicans.


Those are oldfacts, these are goodfacts, they never like realfacts.
 
2014-01-06 03:40:35 PM

flondrix: OnlyM3: Obama's been retreating on all fronts. Why not this one too?

There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq until Bush invaded.


The enormous stupidity of this statement killed my cat.
 
2014-01-06 03:49:14 PM

Lt. Cheese Weasel: flondrix: OnlyM3: Obama's been retreating on all fronts. Why not this one too?

There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq until Bush invaded.

The enormous stupidity of this statement killed my cat.


Your cat sounds like an asshole.
 
2014-01-06 03:56:41 PM

bronyaur1: Fine situation you set up there, neoconservatards.  YOU farkING OWN THIS.


Wasn't Obama criticized by the GOP that his plan to pull out of Iraq was really just continuing Bush's time table and he deserved none of the credit? I guess blame doesn't work the same way.

It would be interesting to know how many of the Al Qaeda fighters holding Fallujah are veterans from the rebellion in Syria.
 
2014-01-06 04:02:57 PM

TheShavingofOccam123: trotsky: Maud Dib: Good fiction book about the Battle of the Bulge.


[jacketupload.macmillanusa.com image 403x648]

Fark you, subby, and fark you, modmins for greenlighting this crap.

The Bulge was so messed up. Hitler put all of his remaining eggs to an attack that relied on a non-existent supply system and the weather. Most scholars tend to think he shortened the Reich's time because he routed all these units West instead of East, where they should have been against the Soviets. Some even go so far as to posit that the post-war world may have changed because the Allies would have been able to take much more of Germany if the East had had the units Hitler sent to their doom in the Ardennes.

What I never understood was why the Allies would think the Germans would never repeat what they had already done twice in the 20th century--rapidly push out of the Ardennes and head West ASAP. The last time they did it was in 1939.

I understand about believing the Nazis were spent but to not cover their warm traditional path of welcome is unbelievable.


War is chaos. Allied supply lines in December 1944 were overextended to the point of breaking. And what Hitler did in 1940 had a very good chance of success against a demoralized enemy who had not yet learned the lessons of armored warfare.

What he did in 1944 was just straight-up crazy. It's hard to predict crazy. And if the weather hadn't kept the Mustangs grounded, the Germans would have barely gotten off the starting line.
 
2014-01-06 04:06:09 PM

Lt. Cheese Weasel: flondrix: OnlyM3: Obama's been retreating on all fronts. Why not this one too?

There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq until Bush invaded.

The enormous stupidity of this statement killed my cat.


Your cat dies from being bludgeoned by reality?  What a pussy.
 
2014-01-06 04:08:15 PM

coeyagi: Lt. Cheese Weasel: flondrix: OnlyM3: Obama's been retreating on all fronts. Why not this one too?

There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq until Bush invaded.

The enormous stupidity of this statement killed my cat.

Your cat dies from being bludgeoned by reality?  What a pussy.


I read that as "bludgeoned by realty."

i.huffpost.com
 
2014-01-06 04:15:42 PM
If only there was a ruthless dictator in charge that could keep these guys in check.
 
2014-01-06 04:17:15 PM
The beginning of the end for Hitler was when his expeditionary force failed to return the Arc of the Covenant from the sands of North Africa.  I seen this movie about that and some archaeologists, so it must be true.
 
2014-01-06 04:21:43 PM

EWreckedSean: joonyer: Your mind: Where this is true.
Reality: Where this is potato.

I love partisan people. They actually convince themselves that it is all the other guy.


You want more fighting?  Then get your sorry ass to a recruitment center and sign it up for service.  Put your goddamn money where your mouth is, Mr. Armchair General.  Otherwise, STFU.
 
2014-01-06 04:22:06 PM
I don't understand the analogy subby..
 
2014-01-06 04:40:57 PM

dennysgod: If only there was a ruthless dictator in charge that could keep these guys in check.


That was also willing to sell us oil for pennies on the dollar if we left him alone.
 
2014-01-06 05:04:16 PM

EWreckedSean: coeyagi: RyogaM: Remember when Republicans said Obama didn't deserve any credit for withdrawing from Iraq because he was just following the agreement for withdraw that Bush made?  I guess that Surge wasn't as successful as you all thought it was, huh?

Get bent, Republicans.

Gas Prices Up:  Obama.
Gas Prices Down:  But but but presidents don't affect gas prices!

SSDI - same sh*t different issue

We Get Out of Iraq: Thanks Obama for getting us out!
We Get Out of Iraq, and Al Qaeda has a Big Win There: It was Bush's deal!

Same game goes both ways.


BSABSVR?  From you?  I';M SHOCKED, I TELL YOU~! SHOCKED~!
 
2014-01-06 05:11:11 PM

mizchief: bronyaur1: Fine situation you set up there, neoconservatards.  YOU farkING OWN THIS.

Wasn't Obama criticized by the GOP that his plan to pull out of Iraq was really just continuing Bush's time table and he deserved none of the credit? I guess blame doesn't work the same way.

It would be interesting to know how many of the Al Qaeda fighters holding Fallujah are veterans from the rebellion in Syria.


Veterans of the Psychic Wars?
 
2014-01-06 05:35:21 PM

Mangoose: I like screaming into the wind.

Does anyone else like screaming into the wind?


I like farting in nunneries, personally, and then blaming it on the Holy Spirit.

/oh, naughty, naughty Zoot!
 
2014-01-06 08:56:37 PM
Truth of the matter, the Germans simply lucked out by being defeated as early as they were, and the Battle of the Bulge helped that happen.

Remember, Roosevelt and Churchill had made Germany their first priority, with Stalin happily agreeing since he was bearing the brunt of the dying. With that in mind, also remember (or learn if you didn't know) that the US atomic bombs were originally destined to be dropped on German heads.

Since it became obvious at the start of 1945 that the Nazis were spent, focus shifted to the Japanese, who still needed to be invaded, let alone defeated.
 
2014-01-06 09:02:31 PM
www.historyplace.com

"The enemy was on the ropes ... but we threw in the towel."
 
2014-01-06 09:19:40 PM

trotsky: flondrix: OnlyM3: Obama's been retreating on all fronts. Why not this one too?

There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq until Bush invaded.

Yep. Militants will sneak in the minute the stable, though evil, guy in charge is deposed.


I wonder if anyone even realizes that the al-Qaeda that's in Iraq right now has barely a nodding acquaintance with bin Laden's al-Qaeda. All they did was borrow the name. Bin Laden's al-Qaeda died with him.
 
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