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(Slate)   A mere 150 years after getting its ass handed to it by the Union, North Carolina is finally winning a civil war--against its own teachers   (slate.com) divider line 300
    More: Dumbass, North Carolina, Common Core, language arts, student test, discretionary income  
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14160 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Jan 2014 at 11:03 AM (41 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-06 03:47:36 PM  

iheartscotch: special20: It seems that the Koch Brothers have an agenda, and they've paid Harold Brubaker quite a lot of money over the years. In recent years, Koch-allied politicians succeeded in undoing the desegregation of the Wake County school system. Do you know why they did that? It's because the Koch brothers have turned North Carolina into an experiment in extremist politics.  (link)

They really are Kochs, you know.

Sooo, the Kochs are your guys' SOROS; or something?

/ I've actually met them on several occasions. In fact; I should see them at Cheney's seekrit volcano lair for the Real Republican National Convention. Shall I pass along your concern?


Go ahead and take that wide stance in the batcave men's room for all I care.
 
2014-01-06 03:49:01 PM  

bratface: Still doesn't change what I said (see below).

They' know the salary going in (when entering college, etc) and then they biatch about it later?
Teachers have been complaining about their salaries for a 'hundred years'.
Learn to live within your means or get another job?


Ah, you're one of those people who sincerely believe that the only possible motivation for performing work is the income potential.

Good to know.
 
2014-01-06 03:53:46 PM  

Smackledorfer: I want to see him explain why he doesn't think people with graduate degrees are smarter than people who only finished 12th grade.


Maybe they were from a poor background and had to go to work to help make ends meet.

Maybe they didn't have to work for the household, but there was no way to swing it financially anyway.

I know.  Ha ha!  Stupid poor people!
 
2014-01-06 04:02:26 PM  

ikanreed: chitlenz: I deal with 1%ers a LOT. They tend to be dumb and mean, ESPECIALLY the legacy ones (inherited wealth).

Unmittigated cruelty and disdain for other people is the fastest way to get rich.  The more people you can use, the faster you can make it to the top.  Other things you think might matter: knowledge, skill, intelligence, level-headedness you only need the bare minimum to not screw yourself over.  Otherwise, it's all about how much you can take advantage of others to how rich you can get.


That does seem to be the trick.  If you can completely ignore morality to the point where it becomes a competition with other 1%ers to see who can screw the most folks?  Yeah, then you qualify.  I lost a LOT of money to one of these assholes two years ago, and it was an encounter that gave me a very keen insight into the way the wealthy do business (here's a hint:  start by never paying any of your debts until lawyers get involved, and drag your feet on anything that doesn't directly create wealth for you personally).
 
2014-01-06 04:18:12 PM  

TomD9938: Smackledorfer: I want to see him explain why he doesn't think people with graduate degrees are smarter than people who only finished 12th grade.

Maybe they were from a poor background and had to go to work to help make ends meet.

Maybe they didn't have to work for the household, but there was no way to swing it financially anyway.

I know.  Ha ha!  Stupid poor people!


You successfully named an example type that fits your narrative, but you didn't answer the question at all.

Come on, own up to or back down from your prior statement. Both are fine. You are being chickenshiat.
 
2014-01-06 04:21:16 PM  

TheSwissNavy: farkbot42: Anayalator: 1) That is half the reason I left NC for CA
2) I don't do it for the money, but why are we teachers making less than ten years ago?

Because Fark you, that's why - NC GOP

Unlike the Dems, the GOP doesnt take bribes from government unions. How much should someone with a pud BA degree get for working 9 months a year? $30,000 to start, job security for life, Cadillac benefits, retire after 30 years at half pay, wtf???


In case you missed it, NC doesn't have teacher's unions. Also, if you think teachers only work 9 months a year, you're sorely mistaken. A teacher's day begins several hours earlier than school, and ends several hours later. The other 3 months typically are spent doing continuous education work, which they have to pay for, among other things. Also, here in Ohio, anyway, that retirement fund you're talking about? It's paid for through contributions from the teachers, just like most private retirement funds are. It's not free money.
Finally, in case you didn't notice, in NC, they eliminated raises for higher degrees, which eliminates any incentive to do graduate work beyond your continuing education. Note that they also slashed funding for supplies. I can guarantee you that teachers are paying out of pocket to get the supplies they need.
 
2014-01-06 04:23:38 PM  

give me doughnuts: Ring of Fire: TheSwissNavy: farkbot42: Anayalator: 1) That is half the reason I left NC for CA
2) I don't do it for the money, but why are we teachers making less than ten years ago?

Because Fark you, that's why - NC GOP

Unlike the Dems, the GOP doesnt take bribes from government unions. How much should someone with a pud BA degree get for working 9 months a year? $30,000 to start, job security for life, Cadillac benefits, retire after 30 years at half pay, wtf???

There is no teachers union in NC so that has nothing to do with it.  Mrs. Fire has two bachelor's degrees and one masters.  She is currently in her first (and possibly last) year of teaching in the NC public school system.  She teaches classes that if a student stays in the program the full four years they will be able to become a CNA straight out of high school.  This program can give students a career with out the heavy debt of going to college.  Just a glorified over paid babysitter making 30,000 a year.  Asshole.

Teachers would love to get paid like babysitters. The going rate for a sitter around here is between $8 and $10 per hour for an evening sitter, and $25 a day for daily care.

25 kids a day, five days a week, for 36 weeks adds up to well over $100,000 even for the cheaper day-time rates. So not only are you getting your kids looked after for a bargain price, the kids are getting taught math, history, science, and a lot of other good stuff.


Yeah, but now factor in overhead.  Day care operators have to carry insurance, fee the lil brats, etc.  That eats into that hundred thousand really quickly.
 
2014-01-06 04:26:22 PM  

praymantis: Teachers that are excellent are worth their weight in gold! I had some growing up and they really changed my life for the better. I also had some real idiots who did not like what they were doing and it was obvious to all involved, the problem was and still is we pay the moron teachers and the great teachers the same. I wish we could figure out as a country how to separate the good from the bad. Pay the great ones fire the lousy ones. So basically they should be paid like pretty much every other college educated occupation out there.


I can honestly say that after 12 years of public school and college, I only ever met 3 teachers that were worth their salary.  The rest were just doing time.. teaching the same curriculum and giving the same tests year after year.  I remember when my son had the same math teacher that his mother did... his mother actually remembered the tests and her mom was a pack rat and saved them... guess what?.. after 20 years, the teacher was giving the exact same tests.
 
2014-01-06 04:41:15 PM  

Smackledorfer: TomD9938: Smackledorfer: I want to see him explain why he doesn't think people with graduate degrees are smarter than people who only finished 12th grade.


Maybe they were from a poor background and had to go to work to help make ends meet.

Maybe they didn't have to work for the household, but there was no way to swing it financially anyway.

I know.  Ha ha!  Stupid poor people!



You successfully named an example type that fits your narrative, but you didn't answer the question at all.

Come on, own up to or back down from your prior statement. Both are fine. You are being chickenshiat.



The way you framed the question was as if I believed that all high school grads were smarter than all college grads, which is obviously a ridiculous and disingenuous premise on your part, but Ill try again.


why doesn't he think people with graduate degrees are smarter than people who only finished 12th grade


The answer is that the more intelligent hypothetical person (for whatever reason) never attended college whereas the less intelligent hypothetical did.

That doesn't make the college grad stupid, it just means the high school grads potential went unfulfilled (assuming one believes that professional fulfillment can only be obtained through a graduate degree).
 
2014-01-06 04:46:37 PM  

dwrash: I can honestly say that after 12 years of public school and college, I only ever met 3 teachers that were worth their salary.  The rest were just doing time



That's amazing.

My experience has been the exact opposite.  I can count on one hand the number of duds I had (from 1974 to 1992).

Two of them were very near retirement and were just phoning it in, while the other two that I can remember were pretty much insane.
 
2014-01-06 04:54:37 PM  

TomD9938: dwrash: I can honestly say that after 12 years of public school and college, I only ever met 3 teachers that were worth their salary.  The rest were just doing time


That's amazing.

My experience has been the exact opposite.  I can count on one hand the number of duds I had (from 1974 to 1992).

Two of them were very near retirement and were just phoning it in, while the other two that I can remember were pretty much insane.


I had some really great teachers, some really shiatty teachers, and some batshiat crazy teachers. The conclusion I now come to is that teachers are in fact people.
 
2014-01-06 05:07:47 PM  
Okay, I did some checking up on the numbers.  They seem off.

FTA:  North Carolina teachers earn nearly $10,000 less than the national average

The linked article refers to the 2012 averages, so let's do the math.   According to the NEA (an opponent to teacher pay cuts), our average salary across all 50 states, DC, and the FEA is $35,672 (take out the FEA, and it's a nice $35.5k). The average teacher pay in North Carolina ... *drumroll please* ... $30,779.  Perhaps these folks learned math in North Carolina, because I don't normally consider $5000 'nearly' $10000.  It's still less, no doubt, it's only 86% of the average, and well above the poverty line.

Also, according to the table, there's 5 that pay less; Idaho, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, South Dakota, making it 44'th, not 46'th.

Hey, I'm not disputing the main case, which is that North Carolinians are poorly educated if educated at all.  I think we can all agree with that.  - Sorry, had to take the easy shot.

How do we fix it though?  Is it really just a matter of money?  South Korea may provide an answer; they went from negligible levels of literacy and education to what is considered by many to be the best education system in the world in a few decades.  How?  Well, teachers are an elite job class, pay scales up there with doctors and lawyers, but that's only half the story.  Like doctors and lawyers, education degrees are grueling, difficult degrees to get, with a great deal of that famous asian competition to weed out those who don't excel.   So they get the cream of the crop, and as such, they demand high pay (up to 3.5x the US max pay!), and as a result of their achievement, they have a certain level of respect in their culture.

This really makes sense; it's teachers that are going to be responsible for teaching our next generations of doctors, lawyers, and everyone else - they need to be of the highest possible quality.

However, Americans do not hold their teachers to the same standards.  American teachers usually just have to meet the low bar of having a bachelor's degree, taking a certification test, and an emotional belief that they need to help the children, absent any actual ability to do so.  Heck, now a days, parents are just looking for an 8 hour day-care, and having teachers that won't bad-touch their kids is a wished-for bonus.

So, I think paying teachers what they're worth is a great idea, as long as we have teachers worth what we pay them.  Ours are, by international comparison, not worth it, and we have no systems to make them so, and many, many obstacles that will need to be overcome in order to implement them.  Can you imagine if teachers could be fired simply for being bad at their jobs, much less being less than exceptional?

Well, you get what you pay for, in more ways than one.
 
2014-01-06 05:15:19 PM  

gimmegimme: The main problem is that there are plenty of corporate profits to go around, but as the charts indicate, they're going to a very small percentage of people.  The Dow is at an all-time high.  Bonuses for higher-ups in Corporation-Americans are just fine.  That money is not trickling down; just another lie that we were told when Reagan started this whole mess.


Yeah, that's the biatch of capitalism, ain't it.

If you try to get pure equality, you get the horrors of Communism, and the economic stagnation of socialism.
If you go reasonably pure Capitalism, you get inequality (and since money is class status in America, that's a bad thing).

Mind you, I'm on the side of pure-ish capitalism for much the same reasons as this guy:  http://www.denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2003/01/ViciousandVirtuousCircl e s.shtml Capitalism sucks, but at the end of a century, if you don't give a shiat about your poorest 20% or so beyond "You will not starve to death", your capitalist societies are just straight up richer than the socialist ones.  Yeah, the entire Industrial Revolution sucked ass for everyone but the capitalists from start to finish, but compare 1900 to 1750 (Hint: The French Revolution was caused by a MalthusianFamine that got coupled with government interference in the form of a price ceiling.  Can you imagine a Malthusian Famine today?  Especially if we let Monsanto and friends be evil and figure out a bunch of really cool ways to ?) and holy crap.

So Socialism is promising to be really awesome, and the entire time, it's producing higher unemployment and lower growth.

Or today, the BIG thing is that we're getting rid of manufacturing jobs and replacing them with robots and computers.  And that's wiping out entire industries.  And yet, the world of today is UNRECOGNIZABLE 30 years ago.  And a bunch of people are getting super-super-rich by either funding it's creation, or actually creating it, and I don't care.  And when we finish the 2nd Industrial Revolution, we'll have gotten another couple of orders of magnitude gain.

And part of it is that I'm a software engineer.  It's probably the most unequal industry in all of history and NO ONE CARES.  Because there's a (mostly accurate) perception that:

a) No one will starve.  We're too valuable.
b) Anyone can, with some very cheap tools and some free time, write a program that everyone loves, get some VC funding and, with some luck and lots of effort, get rich.
c) The playing field is relatively flat.
d) Riding the backs of network effect and economies of scale requires that there be 1 or 2 massive winners and 999 failures, and on a societal level, this is a good thing.
e) There's a MASSIVE productivity factor.  Bill Gates is rich because he sold 8 kazillion copies of Windows because he understood d).  And Bill Gates is worth 100000x what I'll ever be because he is 100000x as productive as me, had a bunch of bright ideas that he was able to execute on, a little bit sociopathic, and much more willing to work 80 hour weeks than me.  And when people are trying to tell me that Kiesha should not be poor, my honest response is "Fark Kiesha.  As long as she doesn't starve to death, I honestly do not give a shiat about her.".  So everyone else is talking about the income gap, and meanwhile, I'm trying to figure out ways to get the productivity of the McD's worker to be 100x what it is.


/This article is probably the best description of the problems of capitalism and socialism:  If France Gets Its Way, 38 Million People Will Die.  On the one hand, capitalism says: "Why should I hand out all this free medicine?".  On the other hand, Socialism make other people say: "Why should I spend billions of dollars trying to make medicine?  Because I want to get paid at some point for the literally billions of dollars I spent trying this thing out".  So while Socialism is a better idea right now, capitalism is a better idea for the next couple of centuries.
//And how the less-Socialist UK is now projected to be the biggest economy in Europe by 2030, despite being literally 70% of Germany's GDP right now.  Think about that.  A 50% rate increase in 20 years.
///And the dumped fridges:  http://www.denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2002/08/TheendoftheEU.shtml
 
2014-01-06 05:16:06 PM  

TomD9938: Smackledorfer: TomD9938: Smackledorfer: I want to see him explain why he doesn't think people with graduate degrees are smarter than people who only finished 12th grade.


Maybe they were from a poor background and had to go to work to help make ends meet.

Maybe they didn't have to work for the household, but there was no way to swing it financially anyway.

I know.  Ha ha!  Stupid poor people!


You successfully named an example type that fits your narrative, but you didn't answer the question at all.

Come on, own up to or back down from your prior statement. Both are fine. You are being chickenshiat.


The way you framed the question was as if I believed that all high school grads were smarter than all college grads, which is obviously a ridiculous and disingenuous premise on your part, but Ill try again.


why doesn't he think people with graduate degrees are smarter than people who only finished 12th grade


The answer is that the more intelligent hypothetical person (for whatever reason) never attended college whereas the less intelligent hypothetical did.

That doesn't make the college grad stupid, it just means the high school grads potential went unfulfilled (assuming one believes that professional fulfillment can only be obtained through a graduate degree).


Not all, average.

Language and logic are hard for you I guess.

If saying Xes are Y means an absolute, then you must go through life frustrated at all the 'idiots' who say things like "apples are red". Ha, they didn't know some are green lol!
 
2014-01-06 05:18:18 PM  
Should also add to that that Socialism does a lot of things that are good like 'Education, Transportation, patching the holes around the edges'.  There's a reason that I use the phrase 'reasonably-pure capitalism'.  Pure Capitalism SUCKS.

/Also, 'For all, By all'.  No, I'm not handing you more free money.  On the other hand, I will build a road (and possibly fund a bus system if there's a decent plan for making it 2/3rds as fast as driving) to let you get to work.  Because that's one big project that helps everybody.
 
2014-01-06 05:25:06 PM  

Smackledorfer: Language and logic are hard for you I guess.

If saying Xes are Y means an absolute, then you must go through life frustrated at all the 'idiots' who say things like "apples are red". Ha, they didn't know some are green lol!



Whatever works for you, Chico.

/ enjoy your mountain top
 
2014-01-06 05:29:22 PM  
Wow, an article about how teachers have it tough hey actually ARE getting the short end of the stick. This is actual trouble, unlike say the needed reforms by Scott Walker in Wisconsin.

If I were king I'd reverse every change except the tenure abolition. That's unnecessary protectionism.
 
2014-01-06 05:30:45 PM  

gimmegimme: One thing is for sure...smart people vote Democrat and the welfare queen states vote Republican.

[jsphfrtz.files.wordpress.com image 850x510]

[www.payscale.com image 625x536]


Yep, here are some of those smart people who didn't vote Republican here:

focusonthelittlethings.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-01-06 05:35:25 PM  

Smackledorfer: The only meaningful thought you conveyed is that you don't think they are underpaid.


That's not what i said at all.


skozlaw: I have no idea what point you think you just made.


I'm not surprised.

------------

Ranking 47th doesn't mean they are underpaid or overpaid.  As i pointed out, we could jack up the salary of every teacher in America, and they would still be ranked 47th.

Until we create a new branch of Farknomics, it is impossible to have a fair system in which teachers somewhere aren't 47th in salary in the country.   But please, feel free to try.
 
2014-01-06 05:40:00 PM  

Anayalator: 1) That is half the reason I left NC for CA
2) I don't do it for the money, but why are we teachers making less than ten years ago?


I left NC for CA for other reasons, but a HS friend of mine went into teaching and left CA for NC about 8 years ago after getting his Masters. According to him, at the time NC was throwing money at people to live and teach in NC (wasn't one of the programs called Life-n-Learn, TeachNC or something?). His pay has been stagnant and having a Masters in Education apparently isn't turning into the later dollars as was so heavily promoted. I'll have to ask if he plans to stay or move along. He loves living in NC but the teacher's issues are certainly making a lot of folks uneasy or downright pissed off.
 
2014-01-06 05:52:41 PM  

peterthx: gimmegimme: One thing is for sure...smart people vote Democrat and the welfare queen states vote Republican.

[jsphfrtz.files.wordpress.com image 850x510]

[www.payscale.com image 625x536]

Yep, here are some of those smart people who didn't vote Republican here:

[focusonthelittlethings.files.wordpress.com image 599x401]


Way to choose two people to represent a whole group instead of using statistics.  Life must be easy for you...I just hope you're not an accountant.
 
2014-01-06 06:15:53 PM  

ColonelSandurz: Getting a kick out of the experts on here. Live in NC, Wake County. Mrs. Sandurz is a teacher in Wake county.
A few Facts that might make a difference. Since the article seemed to get it wrong. The masters degree pay was not taken away, it was grandfathered. New masters degree's will not get the stipend. Wake County starts at $35,189. This is with a  bachelors degree. No certification.
http://www.wcpss.net/careers/salary-schedules/teachers/a.html

The fact that NC has been a Dem run state since forever and most of these changes happened under a dem governor isn't getting a lot of talk. eh. go figure.
/Hope that helps
//Grabs popcorn
///slashies come in threes?


Take a closer look at the chart.  Notice how for the first 6 years of the teacher's career (Years 0 through 5 on the chart) their salary is stuck at $35,189.00; the state salary schedule for teachers is provided here in pdf format (Notice the salary for the first six years is $30,800 with no pay raises).  Wake is one of the counties that has a state supplement (of nearly $4400) due to the high cost of living compared to other counties.

Many of the 'capitalists' on this thread support the concept of a 'free market'. The issue facing North Carolina in regards to teacher pay is that any teacher in our state can simply walk across the border to a neighboring state and get an appoximate $10K increase in salary.  This is causing our best, brightest, and youngest teachers to leave our state.  In fact, over the past 5 years - the top 5% of our college graduates with education degrees have nearly all left teaching in North Carolina. In order to compete in the 'free market' North Carolina needs to raise our teaching salaries to attract the best and brightest employees - similar to companies in the private sector.
 
2014-01-06 06:22:10 PM  

gblive: ColonelSandurz: Getting a kick out of the experts on here. Live in NC, Wake County. Mrs. Sandurz is a teacher in Wake county.
A few Facts that might make a difference. Since the article seemed to get it wrong. The masters degree pay was not taken away, it was grandfathered. New masters degree's will not get the stipend. Wake County starts at $35,189. This is with a  bachelors degree. No certification.
http://www.wcpss.net/careers/salary-schedules/teachers/a.html

The fact that NC has been a Dem run state since forever and most of these changes happened under a dem governor isn't getting a lot of talk. eh. go figure.
/Hope that helps
//Grabs popcorn
///slashies come in threes?

Take a closer look at the chart.  Notice how for the first 6 years of the teacher's career (Years 0 through 5 on the chart) their salary is stuck at $35,189.00; the state salary schedule for teachers is provided here in pdf format (Notice the salary for the first six years is $30,800 with no pay raises).  Wake is one of the counties that has a state supplement (of nearly $4400) due to the high cost of living compared to other counties.

Many of the 'capitalists' on this thread support the concept of a 'free market'. The issue facing North Carolina in regards to teacher pay is that any teacher in our state can simply walk across the border to a neighboring state and get an appoximate $10K increase in salary.  This is causing our best, brightest, and youngest teachers to leave our state.  In fact, over the past 5 years - the top 5% of our college graduates with education degrees have nearly all left teaching in North Carolina. In order to compete in the 'free market' North Carolina needs to raise our teaching salaries to attract the best and brightest employees - similar to companies in the private sector.


What?!?!?!  Free market forces are decreasing the quality of education in North Carolina?  But...the free market fixes everything.
 
2014-01-06 06:23:42 PM  

Deathfrogg: bratface: Still doesn't change what I said (see below).

They' know the salary going in (when entering college, etc) and then they biatch about it later?
Teachers have been complaining about their salaries for a 'hundred years'.
Learn to live within your means or get another job?

Ah, you're one of those people who sincerely believe that the only possible motivation for performing work is the income potential.

Good to know.


That is not what I said.  Teachers know the salary going in and still biatch about it. Teachers are definitely worth more than they are paid. My problem is when they moan about how they are not getting paid more! In that case find another job!

Think about the people that make the least money, they generally do the 'nasty' work (janitors, care workers, etc.) I have great respect for those people.
 
2014-01-06 06:35:53 PM  

gimmegimme: What?!?!?!  Free market forces are decreasing the quality of education in North Carolina?  But...the free market fixes everything.


No.   The free market says that people will, on an individual basis, make the best decisions they can based on the imperfect information available to them and their own biases.  And that the combination of these decisions will do a fairly good job of creating the most optimal solution.

So if you can make more money elsewhere (given cost of living (And NC is cheap in part because they only pay teachers $30K/year), family issues, etc), people will leave.

/Among other things, a centrally planned economy tends to run down one way of doing something really, really hard, while the dirty capitalists are trying all the ways that were sane enough to get funding and hoping that one of them works.  And every time that the centrally planned economy is wrong (or slow to adapt to a changing answer), the capitalists run ahead.
 
2014-01-06 06:53:31 PM  

Descartes: Smackledorfer: The only meaningful thought you conveyed is that you don't think they are underpaid.

That's not what i said at all.


skozlaw: I have no idea what point you think you just made.

I'm not surprised.

------------

Ranking 47th doesn't mean they are underpaid or overpaid.  As i pointed out, we could jack up the salary of every teacher in America, and they would still be ranked 47th.

Until we create a new branch of Farknomics, it is impossible to have a fair system in which teachers somewhere aren't 47th in salary in the country.   But please, feel free to try.


You compared a 75% lower pay with a 1.03/1.04% lower pay.

That was stupid.
 
2014-01-06 06:56:24 PM  

gimmegimme: Way to choose two people to represent a whole group instead of using statistics.  Life must be easy for you...I just hope you're not an accountant.


Yeah, like the same "statistics" that say red states take more federal money than they give...inferring that it's public assistance...yet it's really things like National Park and Federal Land upkeep and costs, military bases, defense spending, etc. Your "voter education" graph is more of the same generalized bullshiat.
 
2014-01-06 07:07:55 PM  

peterthx: gimmegimme: Way to choose two people to represent a whole group instead of using statistics.  Life must be easy for you...I just hope you're not an accountant.

Yeah, like the same "statistics" that say red states take more federal money than they give...inferring that it's public assistance...yet it's really things like National Park and Federal Land upkeep and costs, military bases, defense spending, etc. Your "voter education" graph is more of the same generalized bullshiat.


I am also tired of seeing let than truthful propaganda about red states taking more federal money than they give.  It is tragic when the majority of people can not even be truthful with the facts anymore. Let's look at the actual data.

Let's eliminate military base spending, farm subsidies, and other non-welfare federal spending from the accounting. The red states do not really want the military bases that were forced on them. These bases take up large tracts of land that are useful for other economic purposes and require local money spent on policing & other services because they tend to be high crime / low income areas. Let's put a large military base in NYC or Boston - and bulldoze all the existing homes. The displaced residents can survive on the 80%+ of large farm subsidies that are sent to the owners of corporate farms who reside in blue states (but is seen as red state money for some reason).

Let's focus on federal welfare spending--defined here as childhood nutrition programs, food stamp programs, WIC benefits, TANF benefits, and other similar benefits.

This article from USA Today "New Yorkers lead pack in government benefits" compiled data showing which states had the highest per capita expenditures for every type of government-provided benefit and blue states top the list and red states made up most of the bottom 10.

Top 10 - Most dependent on government aid
1 New York
2 West Virginia
3 Rhode Island
4 Maine
5 Pennsylvania
6 Massachusetts
7 Vermont
8 Kentucky
9 Michigan
10 Connecticut

Bottom 10 - Least dependent on government aid
41 South Dakota
42 Nebraska
43 Wyoming
44 Idaho
45 Georgia
46 Texas
47 Nevada
48 Virginia
49 Colorado
50 Utah
 
2014-01-06 07:11:42 PM  

Descartes: Ranking 47th doesn't mean they are underpaid or overpaid. As i pointed out, we could jack up the salary of every teacher in America, and they would still be ranked 47th.

Until we create a new branch of Farknomics, it is impossible to have a fair system in which teachers somewhere aren't 47th in salary in the country. But please, feel free to try.


So what? The point of the comment was that they're falling farther because pay isn't remaining competitive. More importantly, the rate of decline is considerable. Your comment really addresses none of the concerns the bit you quoted raises and has absolutely nothing to do with the content of the article more generally.

I suspect you didn't need to be told any of that, though. I suspect you're not being intentionally ignorant, just dishonest, so I don't have any great expectations for your follow-up.
 
2014-01-06 07:15:25 PM  

bratface: Deathfrogg: bratface: Still doesn't change what I said (see below).

They' know the salary going in (when entering college, etc) and then they biatch about it later?
Teachers have been complaining about their salaries for a 'hundred years'.
Learn to live within your means or get another job?

Ah, you're one of those people who sincerely believe that the only possible motivation for performing work is the income potential.

Good to know.

That is not what I said.   Teachers know the salary going in and still biatch about it. Teachers are definitely worth more than they are paid. My problem is when they moan about how they are not getting paid more! In that case find another job!

Think about the people that make the least money, they generally do the 'nasty' work (janitors, care workers, etc.) I have great respect for those people.


So do hedge-fund managers, bank presidents, real estate moguls, retail chain CEOs, Fast-Food chain CEOs and Oil Company CEOs. The people who make 8 and 9 figures who pay anywhere from zero to 7% of their "earnings" in taxes. There are several people in this country who are well into the 8 figure range who pay no taxes at all. Most of their money is made overseas, and they appear to keep it overseas but somehow always manage to afford that $100 million yacht and the antique Ferrari collection and the 7 or 10 $20 million houses. They're allowed to spend it anywhere they want, and have the ability to avoid sales taxes and property taxes altogether. Meanwhile, the poor slob who has to get up at 4 am to drive for an hour to clean their offices or run their machines pays up to 30%, when State level taxes are included and they get almost no real breaks at the Federal level. Even the mortgage interest deduction is gone. A man living in Texas or New York can buy a $50,000,000 private cruise ship with funds kept in a bank in Lichtenstein or Monaco, and then berth it in Mexico or the Bahamas and pay no domestic taxes at all on it. Meanwhile, he buys his fuel at the wholesale level, and staffs it with Phillipino or Caribbean crew.

You don't see too many people forcing their wages down below the basic cost of living. They're the folks telling people to eat less food, buy their cars and clothes used and paying off Congressmen to maintain those exemptions for themselves. Theres a reason why the various conservative "think tanks" and professional lobbying companies are floating in hundreds of millions of dollars.

I don't know any teachers or education unions (or any Union) that can afford a $200,000 retainer and $5,000 an hour for lobbyist fees. Plus expenses of course. Those manila envelopes stuck to the underside of the restaurant tables don't stuff themselves with money.

Look up "Leadership PACs." It is legalized, privately funded expense accounts for Senators, House Members and State Legislators and Governors as well as Federal and State Judges, no regulations on them whatsoever. The recipients can spend the money however they wish and they aren't even legally allowed to reveal who is depositing money into them. They aren't even required to pay taxes on the money.

Such an expense account system was one of the major reasons why Richard Nixon was going to be impeached. He just didn't hide the money well enough. He'd been a corrupt bastard since before he was first elected to Congress.

We need to go back to the taxes we had under Kennedy. Maybe then we could afford basic maintenance for the Republic, of which the public education system plays a major role.
 
2014-01-06 07:17:27 PM  

gblive: This article from USA Today "New Yorkers lead pack in government benefits" compiled data showing which states had the highest per capita expenditures for every type of government-provided benefit and blue states top the list and red states made up most of the bottom 10.


FYourFA:
"The benefits include what people receive for Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, veterans' programs, college scholarships and many other government programs."

Earned benefits, and paid-for insurance, in other words. And lumped into that number, the STATE's payments for Medicare.
Again, FYourFA:
"New York spent $2,903 per person on Medicaid in 2010 - a third more than any other state. The U.S. average is $1,364."

For more fun, look up Texas and Social Security.
 
2014-01-06 07:36:37 PM  

A mere 150 years after getting its ass handed to it by the Union, North Carolina is finally winning a civil war--against its own teachers



mbillips: I'm amazed Georgia has escaped the worst of the ALEC-sponsored nonsense when it comes to education. North Carolina went full retard once they got a Republican majority, but Georgia hasn't changed THAT much. Probably because the old-time Georgia Republicans were country-clubbers, not teabaggers, and a lot of the "Republicans" in the legislature are Dixiecrat party-switchers who are fairly populist (as long as black people don't get anything). North Carolina, I assume, has enough carpet-bagger libertarians to join up with the church ladies and seg academy types, and defund public education in the names of Ayn Rand, George Wallace and Jeebus.


I believe you are thinking of Ohio, the only state that soundly rejected the 2011 advance. Kasich pulled every single stop out to ensure its passage, but acknowledged(after the result) that it was something that Ohioans did not want. Unlike Wisconsin, Michigan, or Indiana, the state is doing quite well for telling ALEC to pound sand.

Could you explain why those country-clubbers in Georgia think that an "economic development" department's only job is to take companies from other states (especially mine)? They aren't small government when they think that it's OK to use $60 million of federal money to land a cash-register company. The same would also apply to other Southern states that practice the same thing (which is about all of them).


As for North Carolina, they're same state that made every teacher a permatemp for the sake of killing tenure. It wasn't enough to be a Southern state, but that they had to be that much further than the states that ALEC took. About the only thing that will fix that mess down there is the second coming of William T. Sherman to the entire South.
 
2014-01-06 08:07:37 PM  

Chach: Wow, an article about how teachers have it tough hey actually ARE getting the short end of the stick. This is actual trouble, unlike say the needed reforms by Scott Walker in Wisconsin.


Ohio would like to have a word with you about the "necessity" of needed reforms.  They didn't pass here and the state is still solvent.

If I were king I'd reverse every change except the tenure abolition. That's unnecessary protectionism.

Unfortunately the tenure abolition has made them into a permatemp culture.  Given the political groups that have now taken control of North Carolina, it should show its necessity.
 
2014-01-06 10:17:23 PM  

special20: iheartscotch: special20: It seems that the Koch Brothers have an agenda, and they've paid Harold Brubaker quite a lot of money over the years. In recent years, Koch-allied politicians succeeded in undoing the desegregation of the Wake County school system. Do you know why they did that? It's because the Koch brothers have turned North Carolina into an experiment in extremist politics.  (link)

They really are Kochs, you know.

Sooo, the Kochs are your guys' SOROS; or something?

/ I've actually met them on several occasions. In fact; I should see them at Cheney's seekrit volcano lair for the Real Republican National Convention. Shall I pass along your concern?

Go ahead and take that wide stance in the batcave men's room for all I care.


Please, that kind of stuff is reserved for airport restrooms. I'd have figured that you'd know that. We do, normally, have underpaid janitor fights; two janitors enter, one janitor leaves...

/ We're not ALL cartoon villains, with black suits, black top hats, monocles and goatees. And we're really not behind everything bad in the world; give the dems some credit.
 
2014-01-07 12:43:31 AM  
What happened is as follows:

1) North Carolina was a great place to live
2) People up north, who farked their own place up beyond repair, saw that the grass looked a whole lot greener down in North Carolina
3) These farkwads moved down to North Carolina
4) They then proceeded to do everything in their power to turn North Carolina into exactly the same farked up piece of shiat place to live as they JUST CAME FROM

The only reason Florida is the most farked up place in the South is that there isn't anywhere further south the Yankee assholes can go.
 
2014-01-07 12:59:20 AM  

The My Little Pony Killer: People_are_Idiots: Tenure only encourages mediocrity and bad teaching.

Some of the best, most creative teachers I've ever had have been the tenured ones. Try again.


The best, most creative teachers wouldn't have to worry BECAUSE their ability to teach the kids would reflect in better performance and smarter kids. It's the ones that slap a score and move on to the football game that would be worried.

/some of my best teachers were not tenured.
//a few that were tenured were in no danger even if they weren't.
///"Jock" teachers simply suck and treat the classroom as a friggin' party hour.
 
2014-01-07 01:06:55 AM  

UNC_Samurai: People_are_Idiots: Bendal: Teachers have been especially targeted by the legislature; tenure has been removed, forcing every teacher into a 1, 2 or 3 year contract that is evaluated on how well they and their school do performance wise.

Good idea. If you're a good teacher, and hold standards, you'd not worry on being fired for performance. Tenure only encourages mediocrity and bad teaching. I will say, they do need a pay raise.

Do you know what "tenure" meant in North Carolina public school education? It meant you were guaranteed a hearing on why the district was firing you. It's not the university-style tenure you're thinking of. This does nothing but make teachers more fearful for their jobs (and make it easier to get rid of older teachers).


Obviously you've seen Mr Holland's Opus (one of the best movies on a music teacher, and almost parallel to what happened to my band director). If a school wants to get rid of you, they will find a reason.

gimmegimme: People_are_Idiots: Bendal: Teachers have been especially targeted by the legislature; tenure has been removed, forcing every teacher into a 1, 2 or 3 year contract that is evaluated on how well they and their school do performance wise.

Good idea. If you're a good teacher, and hold standards, you'd not worry on being fired for performance. Tenure only encourages mediocrity and bad teaching. I will say, they do need a pay raise.

Define "performance."  Define "good."  Define "standards."


Performance:

1. a musical, dramatic, or other entertainment presented before an audience.
2. the act of performing a ceremony, play, piece of music, etc.
3. the execution or accomplishment of work, acts, feats, etc.
4. a particular action, deed, or proceeding.
5. an action or proceeding of an unusual or spectacular kind: His temper tantrum was quite a performance.

Good:

1. morally excellent; virtuous; righteous; pious: a good man.
2. satisfactory in quality, quantity, or degree: a good teacher; good health.
3. of high quality; excellent.
4. right; proper; fit: It is good that you are here. His credentials are good.
5. well-behaved: a good child.

Standards:
  1. something considered by an authority or by general consent as a basis of comparison; an approved model.
2. an object that is regarded as the usual or most common size or form of its kind: We stock the deluxe models as well as the standards.
3. a rule or principle that is used as a basis for judgment: They tried to establish standards for a new philosophical approach.
4. an average or normal requirement, quality, quantity, level, grade, etc.: His work this week hasn't been up to his usual standard.
5. standards, those morals, ethics, habits, etc., established by authority, custom, or an individual as acceptable: He tried to live up to his father's standards.


 /seriously, you could have looked in a dictionary.... :)
 
2014-01-07 01:23:44 AM  

fanbladesaresharp: Anayalator: 1) That is half the reason I left NC for CA
2) I don't do it for the money, but why are we teachers making less than ten years ago?

I left NC for CA for other reasons, but a HS friend of mine went into teaching and left CA for NC about 8 years ago after getting his Masters. According to him, at the time NC was throwing money at people to live and teach in NC (wasn't one of the programs called Life-n-Learn, TeachNC or something?). His pay has been stagnant and having a Masters in Education apparently isn't turning into the later dollars as was so heavily promoted. I'll have to ask if he plans to stay or move along. He loves living in NC but the teacher's issues are certainly making a lot of folks uneasy or downright pissed off.


The education system there is a mess. What I should have stated more clearly is that I fled the school system for the sake of my children, not my career or paycheck.
 
2014-01-07 01:33:28 AM  

TOSViolation: What happened is as follows:

1) North Carolina was a great place to live
2) People up north, who farked their own place up beyond repair, saw that the grass looked a whole lot greener down in North Carolina
3) These farkwads moved down to North Carolina
4) They then proceeded to do everything in their power to turn North Carolina into exactly the same farked up piece of shiat place to live as they JUST CAME FROM

The only reason Florida is the most farked up place in the South is that there isn't anywhere further south the Yankee assholes can go.

 
2014-01-07 01:35:16 AM  

TOSViolation: What happened is as follows:

1) North Carolina was a great place to live
2) People up north, who farked their own place up beyond repair, saw that the grass looked a whole lot greener down in North Carolina
3) These farkwads moved down to North Carolina
4) They then proceeded to do everything in their power to turn North Carolina into exactly the same farked up piece of shiat place to live as they JUST CAME FROM

The only reason Florida is the most farked up place in the South is that there isn't anywhere further south the Yankee assholes can go.


Goddamnit. Farked up my previous post. This is what it should have been.

farm5.staticflickr.com
 
2014-01-07 08:28:13 AM  

TOSViolation: What happened is as follows:

1) North Carolina was a great place to live
2) People up north, who farked their own place up beyond repair, saw that the grass looked a whole lot greener down in North Carolina
3) These farkwads moved down to North Carolina
4) They then proceeded to do everything in their power to turn North Carolina into exactly the same farked up piece of shiat place to live as they JUST CAME FROM

The only reason Florida is the most farked up place in the South is that there isn't anywhere further south the Yankee assholes can go.


Hard to make this case when the majority in the areas that the Yankees moved to (around Raleigh and Charlotte) voted Democratic and not Republican.  The Democrats were in power for over 100 years in North Carolina (until 2010 in the legislature and 2012 in the governor's mansion). This is well before the Yankees starting showing up in the 1960s in RTP. The primary reason the Democrats were voted out of office is that the crowd was so corrupt that the citizens of our state could no longer put up with them - over 30 Democratic state politicans were indicted and locked up in federal prison in the last decade - Black, Phipps, etc. It is difficult to make the case that "Yankees" voted the recent Republican crowd into state offices when he majority of the votes came from rural areas with minimal Yankess.
 
2014-01-07 09:26:43 AM  

dwrash: PunGent: dwrash: They should blame the teachers unions, school boards and other politicians that for decades agreed to contracts with unfunded liabilities.  All the funding has become due now and taxpayers cannot/will not pay up.  It's a shame our kids have to pay the ultimate price for this... but it was inevitable.

All contracts must be FULLY FUNDED NOW instead of later.

Couldn't be bothered to read the article, could ya?

Why do you think the salaries were frozen in the first place?


STILL couldn't be bothered to read the article I see.

Your knee seems to be jerking.
 
2014-01-07 10:32:01 AM  

iheartscotch: special20: iheartscotch: special20: It seems that the Koch Brothers have an agenda, and they've paid Harold Brubaker quite a lot of money over the years. In recent years, Koch-allied politicians succeeded in undoing the desegregation of the Wake County school system. Do you know why they did that? It's because the Koch brothers have turned North Carolina into an experiment in extremist politics.  (link)

They really are Kochs, you know.

Sooo, the Kochs are your guys' SOROS; or something?

/ I've actually met them on several occasions. In fact; I should see them at Cheney's seekrit volcano lair for the Real Republican National Convention. Shall I pass along your concern?

Go ahead and take that wide stance in the batcave men's room for all I care.

Please, that kind of stuff is reserved for airport restrooms. I'd have figured that you'd know that. We do, normally, have underpaid janitor fights; two janitors enter, one janitor leaves...

/ We're not ALL cartoon villains, with black suits, black top hats, monocles and goatees. And we're really not behind everything bad in the world; give the dems some credit.


As if. I'm sure as you hit the Add Comment button you were adjusting your monocle and once you reread what you posted you twisted the end of your curly, yet pencil thin mustache. When dems do that, it's just being thoughtful and has a benevolent meaning, of course... although it's tricky for most dems afford the top-shelf mustache wax and designer monocle because they are too poor... so they don't often get that opportunity. Stupid janitors...
 
2014-01-07 11:46:10 AM  

gimmegimme: Onkel Buck: gimmegimme: Turbo Cojones: Anayalator: 1) That is half the reason I left NC for CA
2) I don't do it for the money, but why are we teachers making less than ten years ago?

Isn't everyone? Serious

Nope.

[assets.motherjones.com image 631x346]

Can we assume the top 1% are probably pretty educated in order to make all that money? So according to the other charts on this thread most of the 1%er's must vote democrat and therefore are the evil ones.

You're making a lot of assumptions without providing much evidence.


I guess you missed all the farking charts the were posted
 
2014-01-07 12:04:19 PM  

Onkel Buck: gimmegimme: Onkel Buck: gimmegimme: Turbo Cojones: Anayalator: 1) That is half the reason I left NC for CA
2) I don't do it for the money, but why are we teachers making less than ten years ago?

Isn't everyone? Serious

Nope.

[assets.motherjones.com image 631x346]

Can we assume the top 1% are probably pretty educated in order to make all that money? So according to the other charts on this thread most of the 1%er's must vote democrat and therefore are the evil ones.

You're making a lot of assumptions without providing much evidence.

I guess you missed all the farking charts the were posted


None of the charts correlate intelligence with education.
 
2014-01-07 12:10:26 PM  

gimmegimme: Onkel Buck: gimmegimme: Onkel Buck: gimmegimme: Turbo Cojones: Anayalator: 1) That is half the reason I left NC for CA
2) I don't do it for the money, but why are we teachers making less than ten years ago?

Isn't everyone? Serious

Nope.

[assets.motherjones.com image 631x346]

Can we assume the top 1% are probably pretty educated in order to make all that money? So according to the other charts on this thread most of the 1%er's must vote democrat and therefore are the evil ones.

You're making a lot of assumptions without providing much evidence.

I guess you missed all the farking charts the were posted

None of the charts correlate intelligence with education.


Not true: It nails the tunnel vision of MBAs and physicians cold.
/That liberal arts so-and-so Bloom called it accurately, oh, so many years ago.
 
2014-01-07 12:40:03 PM  

meyerkev: /Why can't there be a traditionally liberal party that combines Republican ideals on the role and place of government with regards to the people with mildly Democratic social policies?  Because I'd vote for them every day of the week and twice on Sundays.


Werd
 
2014-01-07 12:49:03 PM  

umad: The My Little Pony Killer: People_are_Idiots: Tenure only encourages mediocrity and bad teaching.

Some of the best, most creative teachers I've ever had have been the tenured ones. Try again.

Yet they weren't good enough at their jobs to teach you that anecdotes aren't data.



Please point to the data you provide to illustrate your claim. An anecdote is more useful than pure speculation.
 
2014-01-07 01:03:59 PM  

TOSViolation: What happened is as follows:

1) North Carolina was a great place to live
2) People up north, who farked their own place up beyond repair, saw that the grass looked a whole lot greener down in North Carolina
3) These farkwads moved down to North Carolina
4) They then proceeded to do everything in their power to turn North Carolina into exactly the same farked up piece of shiat place to live as they JUST CAME FROM

The only reason Florida is the most farked up place in the South is that there isn't anywhere further south the Yankee assholes can go.


Yeah, I don't think it's the Yankee transplants who are gutting NC's education system.
 
2014-01-07 01:16:30 PM  

Ambitwistor: Yeah, I don't think it's the Yankee transplants who are gutting NC's education system.


We're all Godless and most of us were educated in good public school systems paid for by a thriving middle class.

Most of those things don't apply down here, but I don't have any kids so I'm happy to watch it all burn.

When affluent people move to counties with a better education system I'll live in their houses for reduced rent.

Then I plan on dying before it gets too terrible here. That's a gamble I'm willing to take.
 
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