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(DFW Star-Telegram)   SWAT team launches tear gas into a house to flush out a suspect in a shooting. One burned down house later, they succeed. How Waco of them   (star-telegram.com) divider line 78
    More: Fail, Fort Worth, structure fire  
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4227 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Jan 2014 at 9:28 AM (50 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



78 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-01-06 01:57:15 AM  
static2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-01-06 08:37:38 AM  
Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?
 
2014-01-06 09:20:54 AM  

clancifer: Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?


Between the two extremes of the government CYA and conspiracy nutters, I doubt we'll ever really know the truth on that one.
 
2014-01-06 09:30:52 AM  
Anyone else read the headline and just assume they burned down the wrong house first?
 
2014-01-06 09:32:34 AM  
How the hell does Tear Gas burn down a house. I know you Americans build rather flimsy wooden houses that are easily destroyed by a wrestler on PCP, but sheesh!
 
2014-01-06 09:34:49 AM  
They fired 'burners' into a building and it caught fire. I'm shocked.
 
2014-01-06 09:35:34 AM  
blogs.ocweekly.com
 
2014-01-06 09:36:02 AM  

Fizpez: Anyone else read the headline and just assume they burned down the wrong house first?


That was my first thought as well, that or a standoff with an empty building.
 
2014-01-06 09:36:15 AM  

Smoking GNU: How the hell does Tear Gas burn down a house. I know you Americans build rather flimsy wooden houses that are easily destroyed by a wrestler on PCP, but sheeshia


the canister is hot.  It could have ignited all sorts of stuff - like a poorly-maintained gas stove. Crazy people like that often have hoarding tendencies, so there could have been oil-soaked rags for cleaning his guns, stacks of newspapers, you name it.
 
2014-01-06 09:36:29 AM  

Fizpez: Anyone else read the headline and just assume they burned down the wrong house first?


aye
 
2014-01-06 09:36:52 AM  

ultradeeg: [blogs.ocweekly.com image 480x481]


That's some good timing you've got there.
 
2014-01-06 09:37:58 AM  

FrancoFile: the canister is hot. It could have ignited all sorts of stuff - like a poorly-maintained gas stove. Crazy people like that often have hoarding tendencies, so there could have been oil-soaked rags for cleaning his guns, stacks of newspapers, you name it.


Carpet, furniture, curtains, etc.
 
2014-01-06 09:39:12 AM  

R.I.P.

                                                                                              i.imgur.com
 
2014-01-06 09:39:16 AM  
Funny how no one plans to charge the SWAT team with arson and reckless endangerment.
 
2014-01-06 09:39:47 AM  

nekom: clancifer: Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?

Between the two extremes of the government CYA and conspiracy nutters, I doubt we'll ever really know the truth on that one.


No, we know what happened. The ATF people who were trying to cover their asses got nuked by the IG investigation for the incompetence of the initial raid, but tear gas didn't start the fire (if it had, it wouldn't have spread the way it did, turning into an instant bonfire). There is absolutely no doubt that Koresh and his mighty men started the fire, using accelerants and lighting it in several places. They also shot a bunch of the less fanatical followers.

If the Feds were just trying to murder these people, why did they negotiate with them for 51 days and allow 35 of them to come out unharmed before the final raid?

From the FBI report:  At 12:07 p.m., the Davidians started simultaneous fires at three or more different locations within the compound. This was established by a team of independent arson experts; by video shot from an aircraft utilizing Forward Looking Infrared Radar (FLIR) technology; by observations of FBI agents who saw an individual appearing to light one of the fires; by statements from survivors admitting that the Davidians set the fires; and by [material redacted as required by statute). The fires rapidly engulfed the compound in flames and smoke.
 
2014-01-06 09:41:42 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Funny how no one plans to charge the SWAT team with arson and reckless endangerment.


Well, considering a gunman was arrested without injury after a standoff, and the fire department quickly put the fire out, I don't see what the problem is.
 
2014-01-06 09:42:37 AM  

generallyso: ultradeeg: [blogs.ocweekly.com image 480x481]

That's some good timing you've got there.


Like minds and shiat. ;-)
 
2014-01-06 09:42:43 AM  
Amateurs. Philly cops managed to burn down an entire block by bombing the place from above, destroying 60 homes.
 
2014-01-06 09:43:02 AM  
At least they didn't shoot the dog.
 
2014-01-06 09:53:03 AM  

nekom: clancifer: Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?

Between the two extremes of the government CYA and conspiracy nutters, I doubt we'll ever really know the truth on that one.


I think the reason that the siege was so controversial was that they didn't have any real evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the Branch Davidians that would have justified the warrant and siege in the first place. Even if the fire was an accident, as it probably was, it still looks like the ATF had every intention of going in guns blazing from the very beginning. I suspect someone thought they would make their career on it by breaking up a nutter religious group.
 
2014-01-06 09:55:13 AM  

BitwiseShift: Amateurs. Philly cops managed to burn down an entire block by bombing the place from above, destroying 60 homes.


Ah, the good old days, when cops were allowed to aerially bombard a neighborhood to "get" one person.
 
2014-01-06 09:56:40 AM  

mbillips: nekom: clancifer: Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?

Between the two extremes of the government CYA and conspiracy nutters, I doubt we'll ever really know the truth on that one.

No, we know what happened. The ATF people who were trying to cover their asses got nuked by the IG investigation for the incompetence of the initial raid, but tear gas didn't start the fire (if it had, it wouldn't have spread the way it did, turning into an instant bonfire). There is absolutely no doubt that Koresh and his mighty men started the fire, using accelerants and lighting it in several places. They also shot a bunch of the less fanatical followers.

If the Feds were just trying to murder these people, why did they negotiate with them for 51 days and allow 35 of them to come out unharmed before the final raid?

From the FBI report:  At 12:07 p.m., the Davidians started simultaneous fires at three or more different locations within the compound. This was established by a team of independent arson experts; by video shot from an aircraft utilizing Forward Looking Infrared Radar (FLIR) technology; by observations of FBI agents who saw an individual appearing to light one of the fires; by statements from survivors admitting that the Davidians set the fires; and by [material redacted as required by statute). The fires rapidly engulfed the compound in flames and smoke.


This is true, but it was also foreseeable.

Well known right-wing mouthpiece PBS Frontline goes into detail about how the FBI negotiators were telling the tactical guys they were doing the exact wrong thing, treating religious zealots like they were bank robbers.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/wacotranscript.html

FBI may not have actually lit the fires, but they *WERE* told by their own people what would happen if they "not an assaulted" the place, and they chose to ignore that advice.
 
2014-01-06 09:58:36 AM  

To The Escape Zeppelin!: I think the reason that the siege was so controversial was that they didn't have any real evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the Branch Davidians that would have justified the warrant and siege in the first place. Even if the fire was an accident, as it probably was, it still looks like the ATF had every intention of going in guns blazing from the very beginning. I suspect someone thought they would make their career on it by breaking up a nutter religious group.


Breaking up and arresting, sure.  Massacring, not likely.

clancifer: Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?


See, that's a common misconception originated in an press release that had an unfortunately auto-correction.  The fire was actually started by the Korean people.
 
2014-01-06 10:02:46 AM  
How long until they send the guy a bill for putting out the fire?
 
2014-01-06 10:06:13 AM  

Fizpez: Anyone else read the headline and just assume they burned down the wrong house first?


Yep.

I mean, would anyone be surprised?
 
2014-01-06 10:11:33 AM  
vudukungfu

At least they didn't shoot the dog.


It is because the suspect was white.

/DNRTFA
 
2014-01-06 10:15:02 AM  
I remember at the time of Waco, watching it on TV, my grandfathers solution to the stand off was to build a fence around it and leave.  Good advice in hindsight.
 
2014-01-06 10:22:32 AM  
The same thing happened in an adjacent county to mine a couple of years back.  The local PD was chasing a murder suspect and thought that he was hiding out in his mother's home.  There was a "stand-off" which ended with them firing tear gas into the home which promptly set the structure ablaze and burned to the ground.  Only then did they learn that he (nor anyone else) was not in the home.  The mother had to sue the city before they agreed to pay her for the damage to the home.
 
2014-01-06 10:26:28 AM  
The Feds badly underestimated the Davidians.
 
2014-01-06 10:28:38 AM  

clancifer: Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?


Yes.  Koresh had done the exact thing in an earlier incident.
 
2014-01-06 10:31:13 AM  
It seems that no one understands the proper meaning of "Special" in the SWAT acronym.
And so, they have chosen to staff it with the wrong meaning.
 
2014-01-06 10:36:57 AM  

BitwiseShift: Amateurs. Philly cops managed to burn down an entire block by bombing the place from above, destroying 60 homes.


Don't forget the killing women and children part.
 
2014-01-06 10:44:08 AM  

clancifer [TotalFark]


Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?


No. The atf finally admited to using piro gear after janet-shak-n-bake left office.

// but hey they only murdered peaceful men, women and children whose religion we disagreed with so no harm done.
 
2014-01-06 10:48:02 AM  

alabasterblack: BitwiseShift: Amateurs. Philly cops managed to burn down an entire block by bombing the place from above, destroying 60 homes.

Don't forget the killing women and children part.


It wasn't the cops' fault, the suspects were on the MOVE.


/ Try the veal
 
2014-01-06 10:52:00 AM  

clancifer: Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?


It also wasn't in Waco.
 
2014-01-06 10:52:45 AM  

ds615: It seems that no one understands the proper meaning of "Special" in the SWAT acronym.
And so, they have chosen to staff it with the wrong meaning.


img542.imageshack.us
 
2014-01-06 10:54:17 AM  

ultradeeg: [blogs.ocweekly.com image 480x481]


Add it to the Urban dictionary
Donnered (vb.)  - When police corner you in structure then set it on fire with tear gas.
 
2014-01-06 10:55:24 AM  

alabasterblack: BitwiseShift: Amateurs. Philly cops managed to burn down an entire block by bombing the place from above, destroying 60 homes.

Don't forget the killing women and children part.


At least they weren't arrested for litterin'.
 
2014-01-06 10:57:06 AM  
mbillips

If the Feds were just trying to murder these people, why did they negotiate with them for 51 days and allow 35 of them to come out unharmed before the final raid?
Because the BD's won the gunfight and the batfe thugs were allowed to retreat. If the BD's just wanted to kill government agents -as one of the ever changing claims went- they would have mopped up the thugs then and there, not allowed them to retreat.

The ATF was trying too make headlines to cover for the recent undercover video of their racist BBQ party called the "Good Ol' Boys Roundup"*. There was growing pressure to kill their funding and restructure the nazi branch of govt so they picked what they thought would be an easy target to make headlines with.


*Where ATF leaders were dispensing "joke" "Federal Ni***r Hunting Licenses", had a "Ni***r checkpoint area" and other racist materials.

*** BTW, the revelation of the batfe's nazi movement was by a "militia". Which is why the batfe began targeting those groups.
 
2014-01-06 11:04:43 AM  

flynn80: ultradeeg: [blogs.ocweekly.com image 480x481]

Add it to the Urban dictionary
Donnered (vb.)  - When police corner you in structure then set it on fire with tear gas.


generallyso: They fired 'burners' into a building and it caught fire. I'm shocked.



'Burners' is a term for 'incendiary teargas canisters'

in·cen·di·ar·y
inˈsendēˌerē/  adjective1.(of a device or attack) designed to cause fires.


I don't remember having heard any media source acknowledge this when it was going on. I lived in LA at the time. Just shock that the cabin burned.
 
2014-01-06 11:14:30 AM  

vudukungfu: At least they didn't shoot the dog.


The article doesn't say what the cops did for the first four hours of the stand off.  They may have shot two dogs, a cat and flushed his fish down the toilet.  I did hear the gerbil got away.
 
2014-01-06 11:14:34 AM  
Soon or later we're going to have to replace all those malfunctioning teargas canisters...
 
2014-01-06 11:16:22 AM  

mbillips: If the Feds were just trying to murder these people, why did they negotiate with them for 51 days and allow 35 of them to come out unharmed before the final raid?


Because they're as bad at siege warfare as everything else?

There really has to be laws against using tear gas canisters like that indoors. We can put a robot on farking Mars but we can't make a non-incendiary gas canister? I call bull and or shiat.
 
2014-01-06 11:19:53 AM  

doglover: mbillips: If the Feds were just trying to murder these people, why did they negotiate with them for 51 days and allow 35 of them to come out unharmed before the final raid?

Because they're as bad at siege warfare as everything else?

There really has to be laws against using tear gas canisters like that indoors. We can put a robot on farking Mars but we can't make a non-incendiary gas canister? I call bull and or shiat.


Didn't they use a tank to pump tear gas into the building because they couldn't get close enough to use canisters?
 
2014-01-06 11:35:30 AM  
To The Escape Zeppelin!:
I think the reason that the siege was so controversial was that they didn't have any real evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the Branch Davidians that would have justified the warrant and siege in the first place. Even if the fire was an accident, as it probably was, it still looks like the ATF had every intention of going in guns blazing from the very beginning. I suspect someone thought they would make their career on it by breaking up a nutter religious group.

It was definitely heavy handed in my opinion.  They wanted him on weapons charges if I remember correctly, but with numerous women and children in there they probably should have applied a lighter touch.  Maybe the cult started the fire, maybe they didn't, there is so much out there on it, much of it crap, it's tough to wade through.  It's definitely one for the "mistakes were made" file in any case.
 
2014-01-06 11:37:16 AM  

nekom: They wanted him on weapons charges if I remember correctly, but with numerous women and children in there they probably should have applied a lighter touch.



That 'was' a lighter touch.  At Ruby Ridge, they just shot the women and children themselves.
 
2014-01-06 11:51:47 AM  

HeadLever: nekom: They wanted him on weapons charges if I remember correctly, but with numerous women and children in there they probably should have applied a lighter touch.


That 'was' a lighter touch.  At Ruby Ridge, they just shot the women and children themselves.


They also could have picked him up on his daily jog waaaaaaaaay before that stand off happened.  But they waited for him to go back inside.  Also his weapons werent illegal.

Not to say that David Koresh wasnt a lunatic but the way the feds handles it was equally insane.
 
2014-01-06 12:01:21 PM  

lack of warmth: doglover: mbillips: If the Feds were just trying to murder these people, why did they negotiate with them for 51 days and allow 35 of them to come out unharmed before the final raid?

Because they're as bad at siege warfare as everything else?

There really has to be laws against using tear gas canisters like that indoors. We can put a robot on farking Mars but we can't make a non-incendiary gas canister? I call bull and or shiat.

Didn't they use a tank to pump tear gas into the building because they couldn't get close enough to use canisters?


Yea, you should see that sucker at night!
Like the dragon's breath shells.
Oh, did that start a fire? My bad.
 
2014-01-06 12:02:20 PM  

scroufus: They also could have picked him up on his daily jog waaaaaaaaay before that stand off happened.  But they waited for him to go back inside.  Also his weapons werent illegal.

Not to say that David Koresh wasnt a lunatic but the way the feds handles it was equally insane.


Pretty much.  Weaver's only crime was pretty much telling the feds to go screw themselves when they asked him to be an inside informant.
 
2014-01-06 12:05:49 PM  
Amateurs.

lawanddisorder.org

/hot
//like an Osage Ave BBQ
 
2014-01-06 12:05:51 PM  
Gee, won't it be nice when the drones get green lighted.
None of this dangerous SWAT manned assault xhit.
"Pinpoint" or is it "surgical", no, maybe it was DEATH FROM ABOVE.
'Cause I saw that work so well 45 years ago.
And I hear/see they are so much better than a Cobra.
 
2014-01-06 12:07:09 PM  

HeadLever: scroufus: They also could have picked him up on his daily jog waaaaaaaaay before that stand off happened.  But they waited for him to go back inside.  Also his weapons werent illegal.

Not to say that David Koresh wasnt a lunatic but the way the feds handles it was equally insane.

Pretty much.  Weaver's only crime was pretty much telling the feds to go screw themselves when they asked him to be an inside informant.


Idiot! Always the same answer as when someone asks if you are a god.
 
2014-01-06 12:08:31 PM  

vudukungfu: At least they didn't shoot the dog.


Did they stomp on the bird?
'Suppose after the fire, it would have been excessive.
 
2014-01-06 12:09:34 PM  
Jesus...whatever happened to simply staking out the house, listening to his phone conversations, and grabbing the suspect when he leaves to go get groceries and beer? I guess old-fashioned police work which respects the rights and property of suspects just isn't as fun as pretending you're a green beret going in and clearing suspected terrorist compounds in Fallujah by kicking in skulls, burning down houses, and shooting dogs.

Cops are now worse than the criminals and terrorists.
 
2014-01-06 12:15:25 PM  

gretzkyscores: Jesus...whatever happened to simply staking out the house, listening to his phone conversations, and grabbing the suspect when he leaves to go get groceries and beer? I guess old-fashioned police work which respects the rights and property of suspects just isn't as fun as pretending you're a green beret going in and clearing suspected terrorist compounds in Fallujah by kicking in skulls, burning down houses, and shooting dogs.

Cops are now worse than the criminals and terrorists.


I think it's a "use it or lose it" sentiment that drives it.  Can't justify all those expensive toys if you don't put them to use.  It's a sad state of affairs, but the police are not on our side.  Some of that is changing now that it's hard not to be on video, but it's still absurd what they can get away with.

Cops show up at the wrong house with a search warrant, bust in the door, kill the family dog and "Oops, wrong house.  LOL.  Nothing you can do about it though."
 
2014-01-06 12:16:53 PM  

gretzkyscores: Jesus...whatever happened to simply staking out the house, listening to his phone conversations, and grabbing the suspect when he leaves to go get groceries and beer? I guess old-fashioned police work which respects the rights and property of suspects just isn't as fun as pretending you're a green beret going in and clearing suspected terrorist compounds in Fallujah by kicking in skulls, burning down houses, and shooting dogs.

Cops are now worse than the criminals and terrorists.


When you have militarized hammers on duty, you get nailed.
 
2014-01-06 12:26:26 PM  

nekom: Cops show up at the wrong house with a search warrant, bust in the door, kill the family dog and "Oops, wrong house. LOL. Nothing you can do about it though."


Not even likely to get the "oops, wrong hosue" out of the cops as that's sort of a confession of administrative and/or tactical error on their part. They usually just say something like "we executed a valid search warrant and the officers responsible are on (paid) leave during the investigation" then they simply wait for the public to forget about it, which normally takes about a day.
 
2014-01-06 12:31:13 PM  
gretzkyscores:
Not even likely to get the "oops, wrong hosue" out of the cops as that's sort of a confession of administrative and/or tactical error on their part. They usually just say something like "we executed a valid search warrant and the officers responsible are on (paid) leave during the investigation" then they simply wait for the public to forget about it, which normally takes about a day.

Makes me wonder how in the hell we got to this point.  It's not like this everywhere.  I have a very good friend in Sweden who does not understand my aversion to police at all.  It's different there.  Police in other countries are friendly and helpful.  In other parts of the world, they're cautious.  Hell not long ago police in Iceland shot and killed a man and it made the news as it was the first time that had ever happened, or at least the first time since modern record keeping or whatever.  Between the war on drugs(TM) and the militarization of police, you just can't trust them here AT ALL.  I don't like that one bit, it's wrong.  Shouldn't be the case, and yet here we are.
 
2014-01-06 12:36:37 PM  

OnlyM3: clancifer [TotalFark]


Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?


No. The atf finally admited to using piro gear after janet-shak-n-bake left office.

// but hey they only murdered peaceful men, women and children whose religion we disagreed with so no harm done.


Got a citation for that?

/Yeah right, look who I'm asking...
 
2014-01-06 12:42:45 PM  

glmorrs1: OnlyM3: clancifer [TotalFark]


Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?


No. The atf finally admited to using piro gear after janet-shak-n-bake left office.

// but hey they only murdered peaceful men, women and children whose religion we disagreed with so no harm done.

Got a citation for that?

/Yeah right, look who I'm asking...


The stonewall of lying about "tear gas" is still in play.
Fascist are correct when they testify that "tear gas" does not start fires, they lie when "it is safe" comes up.
THE PROPELLANT that produces the GS gas is flaming hell. Fascists know this.
Canisters are called "burners" for a reason.
 
2014-01-06 12:43:29 PM  
yea, CS
 
2014-01-06 12:47:25 PM  

nekom: gretzkyscores:
Not even likely to get the "oops, wrong hosue" out of the cops as that's sort of a confession of administrative and/or tactical error on their part. They usually just say something like "we executed a valid search warrant and the officers responsible are on (paid) leave during the investigation" then they simply wait for the public to forget about it, which normally takes about a day.

Makes me wonder how in the hell we got to this point.  It's not like this everywhere.  I have a very good friend in Sweden who does not understand my aversion to police at all.  It's different there.  Police in other countries are friendly and helpful.  In other parts of the world, they're cautious.  Hell not long ago police in Iceland shot and killed a man and it made the news as it was the first time that had ever happened, or at least the first time since modern record keeping or whatever.  Between the war on drugs(TM) and the militarization of police, you just can't trust them here AT ALL.  I don't like that one bit, it's wrong.  Shouldn't be the case, and yet here we are.


It started in the 60s & 70s:
"Fark the pigs!" protest everything mentality
Stupid public housing 'urban renewal' projects
White flight

Then escalated in the 80s when the crack gang-wars were going on.
 
2014-01-06 12:49:13 PM  

nekom: Makes me wonder how in the hell we got to this point.


If you had been paying attention, you were warned nearly two decades ago about this:

http://www.davekopel.com/Waco/LawRev/CanSoldiersBePeaceOfficers.htm
 
2014-01-06 12:52:58 PM  

dittybopper: nekom: Makes me wonder how in the hell we got to this point.

If you had been paying attention, you were warned nearly two decades ago about this:

http://www.davekopel.com/Waco/LawRev/CanSoldiersBePeaceOfficers.htm


IMHO, the Turning Point was the election of Kennedy.
Our keepers decided that no longer could the American Public be trusted. And then they had to clean up that mess.
There has been no serious contest since. Every new boss, same as the old boss. And GOP/DFL Divide and Conquer keeps costs down.
 
2014-01-06 12:59:47 PM  

Uncle Pooky: clancifer: Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?

It also wasn't in Waco.


It's not commonly referred to as being in Waco?  Was/is there another city ever mentioned regarding this event?

/douche
 
2014-01-06 01:05:38 PM  

snocone: dittybopper: nekom: Makes me wonder how in the hell we got to this point.

If you had been paying attention, you were warned nearly two decades ago about this:

http://www.davekopel.com/Waco/LawRev/CanSoldiersBePeaceOfficers.htm

IMHO, the Turning Point was the election of Kennedy.
Our keepers decided that no longer could the American Public be trusted. And then they had to clean up that mess.
There has been no serious contest since. Every new boss, same as the old boss. And GOP/DFL Divide and Conquer keeps costs down.


The trend started earlier than the mid-1990's, of course, but it was noticeable enough by then to cause enough concern that it was being commented on publicly.

You don't notice the tide rising until it laps at your toes.
 
2014-01-06 01:23:54 PM  

dittybopper: snocone: dittybopper: nekom: Makes me wonder how in the hell we got to this point.

If you had been paying attention, you were warned nearly two decades ago about this:

http://www.davekopel.com/Waco/LawRev/CanSoldiersBePeaceOfficers.htm

IMHO, the Turning Point was the election of Kennedy.
Our keepers decided that no longer could the American Public be trusted. And then they had to clean up that mess.
There has been no serious contest since. Every new boss, same as the old boss. And GOP/DFL Divide and Conquer keeps costs down.

The trend started earlier than the mid-1990's, of course, but it was noticeable enough by then to cause enough concern that it was being commented on publicly.

You don't notice the tide rising until it laps at your toes.


There was a tsunami back at a place called Kent State, 1978.
There was a "police action" for the Black Panthers and SLA set the Nannys on fire.
 
2014-01-06 01:37:05 PM  
snocone:
There was a tsunami back at a place called Kent State, 1978.

That was actually the national guard though, wasn't it?  Not saying it wasn't a jacked up situation though.

I get that we absolutely do need SWAT teams for some things.  All nations have them.  Even England, where your average cop on the beat doesn't have so much as a pistol, they do have SWAT teams.  It would be right and proper to send armed SWAT teams in to a hostage situation, terrorist with a bomb, etc.  Going after a suspect known to be armed that has fired on police?  Have at it, I do understand that the police have to protect themselves.  But to serve a search warrant for nonviolent drug offenses, or (yes I HAVE heard instances of this) even unpaid fines?  That's patently absurd.  Sending a tank in to search for a relatively harmless plant someone is suspected of growing?  Sheer lunacy.  And that's part of the reason they'll get no cooperation from me unless it's a real crime.  I witnessed a murder?  Yes, I will tell police what I saw.  Want info on a drug dealing neighbor?  Fark you, go try solving crimes against persons or property.

Now as to the guy in TFA, well he did allegedly shoot someone so it's not entirely unwarranted to bring a tactical response.
 
2014-01-06 01:48:40 PM  
Nothing flushes people out of a house faster than fire. I'd say mission accomplished.
 
2014-01-06 01:50:18 PM  

nekom: snocone:
There was a tsunami back at a place called Kent State, 1978.

That was actually the national guard though, wasn't it?  Not saying it wasn't a jacked up situation though.

I get that we absolutely do need SWAT teams for some things.  All nations have them.  Even England, where your average cop on the beat doesn't have so much as a pistol, they do have SWAT teams.  It would be right and proper to send armed SWAT teams in to a hostage situation, terrorist with a bomb, etc.  Going after a suspect known to be armed that has fired on police?  Have at it, I do understand that the police have to protect themselves.  But to serve a search warrant for nonviolent drug offenses, or (yes I HAVE heard instances of this) even unpaid fines?  That's patently absurd.  Sending a tank in to search for a relatively harmless plant someone is suspected of growing?  Sheer lunacy.  And that's part of the reason they'll get no cooperation from me unless it's a real crime.  I witnessed a murder?  Yes, I will tell police what I saw.  Want info on a drug dealing neighbor?  Fark you, go try solving crimes against persons or property.

Now as to the guy in TFA, well he did allegedly shoot someone so it's not entirely unwarranted to bring a tactical response.


We have far, far, *FAR* too many SWAT-type teams.  How many places actually need them?  Maybe a single unit of 20 or 30 guys for a major city like NYC or LA.  Maybe each state has one composed of their state troopers, again, 20 or 30 guys to cover an entire state.

That should be perfectly adequate.

I mean, my mostly rural NY county sheriff's department has a farkin' MRAP, for Christ's sake.  And there is no reason they need such a thing.  Barney Fife in a farkin' tank.  And they justify it because "We live in the North Country, it's very common for people to have high-powered hunting rifles.".
 
2014-01-06 02:00:51 PM  

Fizpez: Anyone else read the headline and just assume they burned down the wrong house first?


Yup.

TFA says "the house he was in." They haven't't identified the owner of the home.
 
2014-01-06 02:03:55 PM  
We come in peace (shoot to kill)
 
2014-01-06 02:14:36 PM  
dittybopper:
We have far, far, *FAR* too many SWAT-type teams.  How many places actually need them?  Maybe a single unit of 20 or 30 guys for a major city like NYC or LA.  Maybe each state has one composed of their state troopers, again, 20 or 30 guys to cover an entire state.

That should be perfectly adequate.

I mean, my mostly rural NY county sheriff's department has a farkin' MRAP, for Christ's sake.  And there is no reason they need such a thing.  Barney Fife in a farkin' tank.  And they justify it because "We live in the North Country, it's very common for people to have high-powered hunting rifles.".


Couple that with "Well, we have it so we must use it" and that's why so many dogs get killed at the wrong house while serving a petty warrant.

Our township has exactly ONE police car, so we don't have any SWAT.  No idea what the county sheriff has but I'm guessing they don't because sheriffs here basically just do process serving and prisoner transportation.  I would guess the PA state police have plenty though.
 
2014-01-06 02:33:18 PM  
That's why I have 4 ove-gloves strategically stored by different doors/windows.

Don't ask why I know they work.
 
2014-01-06 03:42:48 PM  
glmorrs1
2014-01-06 12:36:37 PM


OnlyM3: clancifer [TotalFark]


Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?


No. The atf finally admited to using piro gear after janet-shak-n-bake left office.

// but hey they only murdered peaceful men, women and children whose religion we disagreed with so no harm done.

Got a citation for that?

Choose your source:
FBI admits use of incendiary grenades at Waco
Officials of the FBI and Justice Department admitted Wednesday that tear gas grenades with potentially incendiary effect were used in the final assault on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas six years ago. The fire that erupted in the compound killed 80 members of the religious sect.

The admission marked an abrupt reversal after more than six years of adamant claims by officials from Attorney General Janet Reno on down that nothing done by the FBI and other federal agencies involved in the Waco siege could have caused the fire.


Reno Admits Credibility Loss In Waco Case
...Attorney General Janet Reno said today that her credibility has been damaged by new disclosures of the use of pyrotechnic tear-gas canisters on the final day of the 1993 Government standoff with the Branch Davidian.

...prompted by the disclosure this week of Government inventories listing weapons used in the assault, F.B.I. officials acknowledged on Wednesday that some pyrotechnic canisters were used...


After six years of denials, the FBI's admission that it used munitions capable of starting a fire clearly caught Justice Department officials off guard...

Annnd other lies:
Federal officials have always maintained that federal agents never fired their guns, but a newly discovered videotape of the siege shot by the Texas Department of Public Safety contains footage that some experts say appears to show machine gun fire being directed at the compound from an FBI helicopter on the morning of April 19.



Officials initially insisted that only non-incendiary powder was pumped into the compound, but later admitted that pyrotechnic devices were also used in the assault.

The FBI yesterday reversed a six-year-old position that it never used munitions capable of sparking the blaze that ended a standoff with the Branch Davidian sect near Waco, Tex., and left 76 people dead.

The acknowledgment that FBI agents fired "a very limited number" of potentially incendiary....

"potentially incendiary" Like a "little bit pregnant"

/Yeah right, look who I'm asking...
Yes, you're asking the guy with facts on his side who oncea gain proves you are both ignorant and wrong.
Google too difficult for you?
 
2014-01-06 05:59:32 PM  

snocone: gretzkyscores: Jesus...whatever happened to simply staking out the house, listening to his phone conversations, and grabbing the suspect when he leaves to go get groceries and beer? I guess old-fashioned police work which respects the rights and property of suspects just isn't as fun as pretending you're a green beret going in and clearing suspected terrorist compounds in Fallujah by kicking in skulls, burning down houses, and shooting dogs.


It is a lazy tactic. Once they have a warrant for your arrest they can take evidence in your residence that is "in plain sight" or in common places. If they hook you up outside of the residence, they fear someone will destroy the evidence before the search warrant is served/acquired. National Association of Police Chiefs actually pushing for arrests outside of the home, traffic stops, etc... but departments would rather pretend they're military operatives.Police academies still stress the siege mentality and polarize new cadets to feel it is an "us vs them" mentality... with them being unable to defend themselves.
 
2014-01-06 07:22:29 PM  

Smoking GNU: How the hell does Tear Gas burn down a house. I know you Americans build rather flimsy wooden houses that are easily destroyed by a wrestler on PCP, but sheesh!


----- CS gas. Flammable. Just like Waco.
 
2014-01-07 07:21:16 AM  

thehobbes: Police academies still stress the siege mentality and polarize new cadets to feel it is an "us vs them" mentality... with them being unable to defend themselves.


That's a very, very dangerous attitude for the police to have.  Because unless something very, very radical happens, if "them" decides they've had enough, it will go very, very badly for the "us".
 
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