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(DFW Star-Telegram)   SWAT team launches tear gas into a house to flush out a suspect in a shooting. One burned down house later, they succeed. How Waco of them   (star-telegram.com) divider line 78
    More: Fail, Fort Worth, structure fire  
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4220 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Jan 2014 at 9:28 AM (37 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-06 01:57:15 AM
static2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-01-06 08:37:38 AM
Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?
 
2014-01-06 09:20:54 AM

clancifer: Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?


Between the two extremes of the government CYA and conspiracy nutters, I doubt we'll ever really know the truth on that one.
 
2014-01-06 09:30:52 AM
Anyone else read the headline and just assume they burned down the wrong house first?
 
2014-01-06 09:32:34 AM
How the hell does Tear Gas burn down a house. I know you Americans build rather flimsy wooden houses that are easily destroyed by a wrestler on PCP, but sheesh!
 
2014-01-06 09:34:49 AM
They fired 'burners' into a building and it caught fire. I'm shocked.
 
2014-01-06 09:35:34 AM
blogs.ocweekly.com
 
2014-01-06 09:36:02 AM

Fizpez: Anyone else read the headline and just assume they burned down the wrong house first?


That was my first thought as well, that or a standoff with an empty building.
 
2014-01-06 09:36:15 AM

Smoking GNU: How the hell does Tear Gas burn down a house. I know you Americans build rather flimsy wooden houses that are easily destroyed by a wrestler on PCP, but sheeshia


the canister is hot.  It could have ignited all sorts of stuff - like a poorly-maintained gas stove. Crazy people like that often have hoarding tendencies, so there could have been oil-soaked rags for cleaning his guns, stacks of newspapers, you name it.
 
2014-01-06 09:36:29 AM

Fizpez: Anyone else read the headline and just assume they burned down the wrong house first?


aye
 
2014-01-06 09:36:52 AM

ultradeeg: [blogs.ocweekly.com image 480x481]


That's some good timing you've got there.
 
2014-01-06 09:37:58 AM

FrancoFile: the canister is hot. It could have ignited all sorts of stuff - like a poorly-maintained gas stove. Crazy people like that often have hoarding tendencies, so there could have been oil-soaked rags for cleaning his guns, stacks of newspapers, you name it.


Carpet, furniture, curtains, etc.
 
2014-01-06 09:39:12 AM

R.I.P.

                                                                                              i.imgur.com
 
2014-01-06 09:39:16 AM
Funny how no one plans to charge the SWAT team with arson and reckless endangerment.
 
2014-01-06 09:39:47 AM

nekom: clancifer: Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?

Between the two extremes of the government CYA and conspiracy nutters, I doubt we'll ever really know the truth on that one.


No, we know what happened. The ATF people who were trying to cover their asses got nuked by the IG investigation for the incompetence of the initial raid, but tear gas didn't start the fire (if it had, it wouldn't have spread the way it did, turning into an instant bonfire). There is absolutely no doubt that Koresh and his mighty men started the fire, using accelerants and lighting it in several places. They also shot a bunch of the less fanatical followers.

If the Feds were just trying to murder these people, why did they negotiate with them for 51 days and allow 35 of them to come out unharmed before the final raid?

From the FBI report:  At 12:07 p.m., the Davidians started simultaneous fires at three or more different locations within the compound. This was established by a team of independent arson experts; by video shot from an aircraft utilizing Forward Looking Infrared Radar (FLIR) technology; by observations of FBI agents who saw an individual appearing to light one of the fires; by statements from survivors admitting that the Davidians set the fires; and by [material redacted as required by statute). The fires rapidly engulfed the compound in flames and smoke.
 
2014-01-06 09:41:42 AM

Marcus Aurelius: Funny how no one plans to charge the SWAT team with arson and reckless endangerment.


Well, considering a gunman was arrested without injury after a standoff, and the fire department quickly put the fire out, I don't see what the problem is.
 
2014-01-06 09:42:37 AM

generallyso: ultradeeg: [blogs.ocweekly.com image 480x481]

That's some good timing you've got there.


Like minds and shiat. ;-)
 
2014-01-06 09:42:43 AM
Amateurs. Philly cops managed to burn down an entire block by bombing the place from above, destroying 60 homes.
 
2014-01-06 09:43:02 AM
At least they didn't shoot the dog.
 
2014-01-06 09:53:03 AM

nekom: clancifer: Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?

Between the two extremes of the government CYA and conspiracy nutters, I doubt we'll ever really know the truth on that one.


I think the reason that the siege was so controversial was that they didn't have any real evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the Branch Davidians that would have justified the warrant and siege in the first place. Even if the fire was an accident, as it probably was, it still looks like the ATF had every intention of going in guns blazing from the very beginning. I suspect someone thought they would make their career on it by breaking up a nutter religious group.
 
2014-01-06 09:55:13 AM

BitwiseShift: Amateurs. Philly cops managed to burn down an entire block by bombing the place from above, destroying 60 homes.


Ah, the good old days, when cops were allowed to aerially bombard a neighborhood to "get" one person.
 
2014-01-06 09:56:40 AM

mbillips: nekom: clancifer: Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?

Between the two extremes of the government CYA and conspiracy nutters, I doubt we'll ever really know the truth on that one.

No, we know what happened. The ATF people who were trying to cover their asses got nuked by the IG investigation for the incompetence of the initial raid, but tear gas didn't start the fire (if it had, it wouldn't have spread the way it did, turning into an instant bonfire). There is absolutely no doubt that Koresh and his mighty men started the fire, using accelerants and lighting it in several places. They also shot a bunch of the less fanatical followers.

If the Feds were just trying to murder these people, why did they negotiate with them for 51 days and allow 35 of them to come out unharmed before the final raid?

From the FBI report:  At 12:07 p.m., the Davidians started simultaneous fires at three or more different locations within the compound. This was established by a team of independent arson experts; by video shot from an aircraft utilizing Forward Looking Infrared Radar (FLIR) technology; by observations of FBI agents who saw an individual appearing to light one of the fires; by statements from survivors admitting that the Davidians set the fires; and by [material redacted as required by statute). The fires rapidly engulfed the compound in flames and smoke.


This is true, but it was also foreseeable.

Well known right-wing mouthpiece PBS Frontline goes into detail about how the FBI negotiators were telling the tactical guys they were doing the exact wrong thing, treating religious zealots like they were bank robbers.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/wacotranscript.html

FBI may not have actually lit the fires, but they *WERE* told by their own people what would happen if they "not an assaulted" the place, and they chose to ignore that advice.
 
2014-01-06 09:58:36 AM

To The Escape Zeppelin!: I think the reason that the siege was so controversial was that they didn't have any real evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the Branch Davidians that would have justified the warrant and siege in the first place. Even if the fire was an accident, as it probably was, it still looks like the ATF had every intention of going in guns blazing from the very beginning. I suspect someone thought they would make their career on it by breaking up a nutter religious group.


Breaking up and arresting, sure.  Massacring, not likely.

clancifer: Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?


See, that's a common misconception originated in an press release that had an unfortunately auto-correction.  The fire was actually started by the Korean people.
 
2014-01-06 10:02:46 AM
How long until they send the guy a bill for putting out the fire?
 
2014-01-06 10:06:13 AM

Fizpez: Anyone else read the headline and just assume they burned down the wrong house first?


Yep.

I mean, would anyone be surprised?
 
2014-01-06 10:11:33 AM
vudukungfu

At least they didn't shoot the dog.


It is because the suspect was white.

/DNRTFA
 
2014-01-06 10:15:02 AM
I remember at the time of Waco, watching it on TV, my grandfathers solution to the stand off was to build a fence around it and leave.  Good advice in hindsight.
 
2014-01-06 10:22:32 AM
The same thing happened in an adjacent county to mine a couple of years back.  The local PD was chasing a murder suspect and thought that he was hiding out in his mother's home.  There was a "stand-off" which ended with them firing tear gas into the home which promptly set the structure ablaze and burned to the ground.  Only then did they learn that he (nor anyone else) was not in the home.  The mother had to sue the city before they agreed to pay her for the damage to the home.
 
2014-01-06 10:26:28 AM
The Feds badly underestimated the Davidians.
 
2014-01-06 10:28:38 AM

clancifer: Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?


Yes.  Koresh had done the exact thing in an earlier incident.
 
2014-01-06 10:31:13 AM
It seems that no one understands the proper meaning of "Special" in the SWAT acronym.
And so, they have chosen to staff it with the wrong meaning.
 
2014-01-06 10:36:57 AM

BitwiseShift: Amateurs. Philly cops managed to burn down an entire block by bombing the place from above, destroying 60 homes.


Don't forget the killing women and children part.
 
2014-01-06 10:44:08 AM

clancifer [TotalFark]


Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?


No. The atf finally admited to using piro gear after janet-shak-n-bake left office.

// but hey they only murdered peaceful men, women and children whose religion we disagreed with so no harm done.
 
2014-01-06 10:48:02 AM

alabasterblack: BitwiseShift: Amateurs. Philly cops managed to burn down an entire block by bombing the place from above, destroying 60 homes.

Don't forget the killing women and children part.


It wasn't the cops' fault, the suspects were on the MOVE.


/ Try the veal
 
2014-01-06 10:52:00 AM

clancifer: Wasn't the fire in Waco started by the Koresh people?


It also wasn't in Waco.
 
2014-01-06 10:52:45 AM

ds615: It seems that no one understands the proper meaning of "Special" in the SWAT acronym.
And so, they have chosen to staff it with the wrong meaning.


img542.imageshack.us
 
2014-01-06 10:54:17 AM

ultradeeg: [blogs.ocweekly.com image 480x481]


Add it to the Urban dictionary
Donnered (vb.)  - When police corner you in structure then set it on fire with tear gas.
 
2014-01-06 10:55:24 AM

alabasterblack: BitwiseShift: Amateurs. Philly cops managed to burn down an entire block by bombing the place from above, destroying 60 homes.

Don't forget the killing women and children part.


At least they weren't arrested for litterin'.
 
2014-01-06 10:57:06 AM
mbillips

If the Feds were just trying to murder these people, why did they negotiate with them for 51 days and allow 35 of them to come out unharmed before the final raid?
Because the BD's won the gunfight and the batfe thugs were allowed to retreat. If the BD's just wanted to kill government agents -as one of the ever changing claims went- they would have mopped up the thugs then and there, not allowed them to retreat.

The ATF was trying too make headlines to cover for the recent undercover video of their racist BBQ party called the "Good Ol' Boys Roundup"*. There was growing pressure to kill their funding and restructure the nazi branch of govt so they picked what they thought would be an easy target to make headlines with.


*Where ATF leaders were dispensing "joke" "Federal Ni***r Hunting Licenses", had a "Ni***r checkpoint area" and other racist materials.

*** BTW, the revelation of the batfe's nazi movement was by a "militia". Which is why the batfe began targeting those groups.
 
2014-01-06 11:04:43 AM

flynn80: ultradeeg: [blogs.ocweekly.com image 480x481]

Add it to the Urban dictionary
Donnered (vb.)  - When police corner you in structure then set it on fire with tear gas.


generallyso: They fired 'burners' into a building and it caught fire. I'm shocked.



'Burners' is a term for 'incendiary teargas canisters'

in·cen·di·ar·y
inˈsendēˌerē/  adjective1.(of a device or attack) designed to cause fires.


I don't remember having heard any media source acknowledge this when it was going on. I lived in LA at the time. Just shock that the cabin burned.
 
2014-01-06 11:14:30 AM

vudukungfu: At least they didn't shoot the dog.


The article doesn't say what the cops did for the first four hours of the stand off.  They may have shot two dogs, a cat and flushed his fish down the toilet.  I did hear the gerbil got away.
 
2014-01-06 11:14:34 AM
Soon or later we're going to have to replace all those malfunctioning teargas canisters...
 
2014-01-06 11:16:22 AM

mbillips: If the Feds were just trying to murder these people, why did they negotiate with them for 51 days and allow 35 of them to come out unharmed before the final raid?


Because they're as bad at siege warfare as everything else?

There really has to be laws against using tear gas canisters like that indoors. We can put a robot on farking Mars but we can't make a non-incendiary gas canister? I call bull and or shiat.
 
2014-01-06 11:19:53 AM

doglover: mbillips: If the Feds were just trying to murder these people, why did they negotiate with them for 51 days and allow 35 of them to come out unharmed before the final raid?

Because they're as bad at siege warfare as everything else?

There really has to be laws against using tear gas canisters like that indoors. We can put a robot on farking Mars but we can't make a non-incendiary gas canister? I call bull and or shiat.


Didn't they use a tank to pump tear gas into the building because they couldn't get close enough to use canisters?
 
2014-01-06 11:35:30 AM
To The Escape Zeppelin!:
I think the reason that the siege was so controversial was that they didn't have any real evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the Branch Davidians that would have justified the warrant and siege in the first place. Even if the fire was an accident, as it probably was, it still looks like the ATF had every intention of going in guns blazing from the very beginning. I suspect someone thought they would make their career on it by breaking up a nutter religious group.

It was definitely heavy handed in my opinion.  They wanted him on weapons charges if I remember correctly, but with numerous women and children in there they probably should have applied a lighter touch.  Maybe the cult started the fire, maybe they didn't, there is so much out there on it, much of it crap, it's tough to wade through.  It's definitely one for the "mistakes were made" file in any case.
 
2014-01-06 11:37:16 AM

nekom: They wanted him on weapons charges if I remember correctly, but with numerous women and children in there they probably should have applied a lighter touch.



That 'was' a lighter touch.  At Ruby Ridge, they just shot the women and children themselves.
 
2014-01-06 11:51:47 AM

HeadLever: nekom: They wanted him on weapons charges if I remember correctly, but with numerous women and children in there they probably should have applied a lighter touch.


That 'was' a lighter touch.  At Ruby Ridge, they just shot the women and children themselves.


They also could have picked him up on his daily jog waaaaaaaaay before that stand off happened.  But they waited for him to go back inside.  Also his weapons werent illegal.

Not to say that David Koresh wasnt a lunatic but the way the feds handles it was equally insane.
 
2014-01-06 12:01:21 PM

lack of warmth: doglover: mbillips: If the Feds were just trying to murder these people, why did they negotiate with them for 51 days and allow 35 of them to come out unharmed before the final raid?

Because they're as bad at siege warfare as everything else?

There really has to be laws against using tear gas canisters like that indoors. We can put a robot on farking Mars but we can't make a non-incendiary gas canister? I call bull and or shiat.

Didn't they use a tank to pump tear gas into the building because they couldn't get close enough to use canisters?


Yea, you should see that sucker at night!
Like the dragon's breath shells.
Oh, did that start a fire? My bad.
 
2014-01-06 12:02:20 PM

scroufus: They also could have picked him up on his daily jog waaaaaaaaay before that stand off happened.  But they waited for him to go back inside.  Also his weapons werent illegal.

Not to say that David Koresh wasnt a lunatic but the way the feds handles it was equally insane.


Pretty much.  Weaver's only crime was pretty much telling the feds to go screw themselves when they asked him to be an inside informant.
 
2014-01-06 12:05:49 PM
Amateurs.

lawanddisorder.org

/hot
//like an Osage Ave BBQ
 
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