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3243 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Jan 2014 at 6:35 AM (32 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-06 09:56:07 AM

Public Savant: It doesn't stink, and that's the most important thing to me.

On the other hand, if you were stupid enough to start smoking, then you damn well ought to pay the piper when it comes to quitting cold turkey.

Herr Morgenstern: Can someone explain to me like I'm three why ecigs are bad for you? Aside from the obvious chemical addiction, that is?

Nicotine IS a poison. It restricts your bloodvessels, so a high concentration (such as in that E-cig fluid) will kill you or the ususpecting child if ingested.

BTW, if you wanna kill someone, then put a pack of cigarettes in water and let it sit for a few hours. Then filter the tobacco and paper from the water. Then somehow get them to drink that foul smelling water and BAM - they die from a mix of asphyxiation, heart attack and blood clots.

/RIP, you unsuspecting guppies from that high school project.


Should we notify the authorities that you are a murder, or are you just echoing back something you read on the internet and have no experience with in real life?
 
2014-01-06 09:57:46 AM

mccallcl: So require the use of child-proof caps on the bottles.

What did all the haters think people were going to do when they made smoking practically impossible? Quit cold turkey overnight and just suffer because it's what they deserve?

I think this is about punishment for "poor choices", and the anti-smokers want smokers to suffer because they lost someone to smoking and it hurt their feelings. Or they had to smell smoke and it stinks and so smokers must pay. Something like that.


There have been other options on the market for a while.  Nicotine gum and nasal sprays immediately come to mind.  Vaporizers take it a step further, allowing the user to emulate the habits they may have been doing for years.  I'm glad it's an option to help people stop smoking.

However, I'd be a lot more emphatic about the "smoker's plight" if they weren't so damn indignant about it.  Yes, you have a right to smoke.  But it's one of those selfish, disgusting, and self destructive things you can do.  So don't get upset when laws are passed to make it that much harder or expensive to continue your habit.
 
2014-01-06 09:59:39 AM

mccallcl: So require the use of child-proof caps on the bottles.


Already done.  99.9% of E-liquid bottles have childproof caps.  I never use anything but for my line of juices, and I also print clear warnings on all of the labels.  There are a few exceptions - many juice that come in glass bottles have non-childproof dropper caps. (Halo is one exception, they use childproof dropper caps.)  Some few small upstarts use non-childproof plastic caps, but they usually get called out for it in reviews, as well they should.
 
2014-01-06 10:06:03 AM

Psychopusher: Everyone else who decries them and isn't a NIMBY is doing so because they're in the pocket of one of the other two.


False. You left out people who quit smoking and know you can too. I used to smoke, but I'm not anti-smoking. My mom is allowed to smoke in my car and in my house. If someone wants to vape around me more power to them, and I'm not getting money from anyone.

I do however refuse to see e-cigarettes as anything other than shifting one bad habit for a less bad habit. Just because someone refuses to sign-off on your bullshiat isn't the same as trying to say you shouldn't be allowed to do it.
 
2014-01-06 10:07:21 AM

Elegy: Now that that's out of the way I'll freely admit that inhaling vapor all day every day is likely to have negative health effects? The question is, how much?


None at all, if we're just talking about the vapor, minus the nicotine.  Inhalation of PG vapor has been studied extensively since the 40s and no ill effects have been reported at all.  PG and VG vapor has been used in fog machines since fog machines have existed, and many hospitals pump vaporized PG through their HV/AC system because PG is an effective germicide.  (It's hygroscopic and basically desiccates germs by adhering to them.)

Add nicotine, and it becomes a mild stimulant and a vasoconstrictor, much like caffeine.
 
2014-01-06 10:10:59 AM
stopped reading after "second Hand Vapor" ...


SERIOUSLY?

Non smokers are worried about water...


static1.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-01-06 10:11:50 AM

valkore: Yes, you have a right to smoke.  But it's one of those selfish, disgusting, and self destructive things you can do.


I feel the same way about driving a car, so I'm not empathetic when people and their families get killed doing something stupid like driving to get iced cream. My empathy is not important, though, because the practical matter of people driving to get iced cream doesn't involve my feelings at all. So I am more interested in making sure that driving to get iced cream (easily more dangerous, selfish and anti-social than smoking) is not unsafe, insofar as I am interested in the safety of other people I don't know, which is to say not very.

If you think smokers are "indignant" about smoking, try stopping someone from driving and see how that goes. Usually requires the police to step in.

Psychopusher: Already done.


There's gonna have to be some regulation on this stuff, there's too much profit in making magic juice for $1.75 a bottle and selling it for $10. I imagine that eventually e-digs will have to be disposable and completely self-contained. There's no way the authorities are going to just let people DIY this stuff for much longer. For the record, I use e-cigs.
 
2014-01-06 10:14:32 AM

drjekel_mrhyde: I seen people sit 10' away from their kids, texting, and watching TV while the kids ate out the dog bowl


There's nothing in dog food that will hurt a kid. At worst, it has an unpleasant taste.
 
2014-01-06 10:17:40 AM

mccallcl: There's gonna have to be some regulation on this stuff, there's too much profit in making magic juice for $1.75 a bottle and selling it for $10. I imagine that eventually e-digs will have to be disposable and completely self-contained. There's no way the authorities are going to just let people DIY this stuff for much longer. For the record, I use e-cigs.


Most of it is convenience though. It's perfectly legal to grow tobacco in your own backyard. It's relatively trivial to dry and process it, which can be learned by a simple visit to a tobacco museum or watching a youtube video.
 
2014-01-06 10:18:55 AM

Pangea: Psychopusher: Everyone else who decries them and isn't a NIMBY is doing so because they're in the pocket of one of the other two.

False. You left out people who quit smoking and know you can too. I used to smoke, but I'm not anti-smoking. My mom is allowed to smoke in my car and in my house. If someone wants to vape around me more power to them, and I'm not getting money from anyone.

I do however refuse to see e-cigarettes as anything other than shifting one bad habit for a less bad habit. Just because someone refuses to sign-off on your bullshiat isn't the same as trying to say you shouldn't be allowed to do it.


Point taken -- yes, the evangelical ex-smokers, I forgot about them.  "Just quit!  I did it, you can too!"  Yeah, no.  Not everyone is you -- thankfully.

And yes, to an extent E-cigs are shifting from a bad habit to a much less bad habit.  That's the point, though.  E-cigs aren't about quitting nicotine.  They're about harm reduction by quitting tobacco cigarettes.  Nobody is claiming otherwise.  (Or if they are, they've missed the point.)  Many of us have tried loads of other methods to quit and none of them worked.  Maybe we just don't have the willpower to quit.  Maybe we like nicotine but don't like smoking, yet couldn't unlink the two by any other means.  Whatever the case, vaping is an incredibly effective method of getting off of tobacco cigarettes.  It's also a significant threat to Big Pharma and the government's cash cows, and much of the controversy is manufactured.

Nicotine has been demonized for years in an effort to "denormalize" smoking by using nicotine as a convenient proxy for the stuff that's actually bad in cigarettes. (nicotine in and of itself isn't particularly bad -- no more so than caffeine -- but it's addictive and is what keeps people inhaling all the other bad crap in combusted tobacco, so it was a useful scapegoat.)  Now that we've been able to decouple nicotine in a manner that lets people maintain aspects of the habit, nicotine is still considered the big bad demon, but it's simply not true.
 
2014-01-06 10:19:13 AM

ToastTheRabbit: stopped reading after "second Hand Vapor" ...


SERIOUSLY?

Non smokers are worried about water...


[static1.wikia.nocookie.net image 850x478]


Please don't tar all non-smokers with that brush.  Not all of us are this stupid and/or corrupt.
 
2014-01-06 10:21:02 AM
2020s: Don't eat your baby. Thanks, Obama/Paul/Palin/whoever.
 
2014-01-06 10:24:25 AM

HeartBurnKid: ToastTheRabbit: stopped reading after "second Hand Vapor" ...


SERIOUSLY?

Non smokers are worried about water...


[static1.wikia.nocookie.net image 850x478]

Please don't tar all non-smokers with that brush.  Not all of us are this stupid and/or corrupt.


sorry, second hand contact can subject you to the risk of stereotypes. As a user of the vapor based nicotine delivery system... former smoker... I am a bit bitter. I recognize its not your fault though.
 
2014-01-06 10:24:30 AM
Damn, babies aint allowed to have any fun...
 
2014-01-06 10:25:25 AM

mccallcl: There's gonna have to be some regulation on this stuff, there's too much profit in making magic juice for $1.75 a bottle and selling it for $10. I imagine that eventually e-digs will have to be disposable and completely self-contained. There's no way the authorities are going to just let people DIY this stuff for much longer. For the record, I use e-cigs.


Oh, I'm sure there will be plenty of regulation.  Some of unnecessary -- governments love to over-regulate. But much of it will absolutely be necessary and welcome.  I do fear that DIY will go the way of the dodo, I have to agree with you on that point.  Those of us who got into the industry already will likely have to be licensed or at least compliant with regulations in order to have access to the supplies to continue making E-liquid, while the end user won't have general access to liquid nicotine.  (PG and VG and flavourings will be readily available, though, that's common stuff you don't need a license to handle.)

Also, anyone who charges $10 for 10ml is a little overpriced.  I suggest an MSRP of $6.99 for a 10ml bottle to those who sell my line, but it's up to them.  My profit margin is under 100%.
 
2014-01-06 10:25:58 AM

Psychopusher: nicotine in and of itself isn't particularly bad -- no more so than caffeine


Psychopusher: Nicotine unto itself isn't particularly harmful when inhaled in E-cigs, about on par in terms of addictiveness and effect on the body as caffeine.


Psychopusher: Add nicotine, and it becomes a mild stimulant and a vasoconstrictor, much like caffeine.


Okay, I think you're trying to tell us that nicotine isn't any worse to the human body than caffeine.  I haven't seen any studies comparing the two, though.  Do you have a link to one?
 
2014-01-06 10:27:02 AM

Psychopusher: I suggest an MSRP of $6.99 for a 10ml bottle to those who sell my line, but it's up to them.


Ah, okay, now I think I see why you keep comparing nicotine and caffeine.
 
2014-01-06 10:36:50 AM

HeartBurnKid: Yes, nicotine is a poison.  So are half the other things in your house.


Half?!?

Your house sounds safe.  I'd say, roughly, 80-90% of the things in my house are actively trying to kill me.  The other 10-20% are just waiting around for my carcass to drop.
 
2014-01-06 10:37:41 AM

mbillips: Alonjar: Herr Morgenstern: Can someone explain to me like I'm three why ecigs are bad for you? Aside from the obvious chemical addiction, that is?

They mostly arent.  Nicotine has a number of health issues related to it, but thats about it.  All the other dangers of smoking are essentially removed from the equation.

Yeah, it's just the nicotine, nature's pesticide. Inhaling toxic smoke does all sorts of bad things, but nicotine is the main toxin in cigarette smoke. Nearly as many people die of strokes and heart attacks caused by smoking as die of lung disease, and nicotine is what causes the cardiovascular problems. E-cigs are just as bad as cigarettes when it comes to delivering that daily dose of heart poison.


I would definitely need a citation on that one.
 
2014-01-06 10:38:08 AM

Psychopusher: Now that we've been able to decouple nicotine in a manner that lets people maintain aspects of the habit, nicotine is still considered the big bad demon, but it's simply not true.


I'm also not pushing for vaping to be illegal. I'll readily admit the nicotine was calming to my nerves when I still smoked.

It's quite obviously a push for moral puritanism that is conveniently wrapped in the "think of the children" rhetoric. People also drink alcohol, much of which is available in very tasty flavors that appeal to kids. We saw how well prohibition worked there, and as far as I know there have been no driving related accidents because people consumed too much e-cig vapor.
 
2014-01-06 10:38:40 AM
Is this the thread where people confuse nicotine with tar in cigarettes?

/goody
//Still standing over my simmering pot of tomatoes, btw.
///added peppers to up the nicotine levels.
 
2014-01-06 10:42:59 AM

Psychopusher: Some of unnecessary -- governments love to over-regulate.


In this case, I think the regulation will drive innovation to make the product more usable. I know you're in the industry, but the current delivery systems would be considered unusable if put through testing and focus groups. It's like filling your own tylenol gelcaps. I get the feeling that the e-liquid users are the test bed, because we put up with it, because it's addictive and almost anything beats smoking.
 
2014-01-06 10:46:56 AM

mccallcl: Psychopusher: Some of unnecessary -- governments love to over-regulate.

In this case, I think the regulation will drive innovation to make the product more usable. I know you're in the industry, but the current delivery systems would be considered unusable if put through testing and focus groups. It's like filling your own tylenol gelcaps. I get the feeling that the e-liquid users are the test bed, because we put up with it, because it's addictive and almost anything beats smoking.


I would like to suggest that it might be more in line with all the companies who sell proprietary blends of health supplements. The nicotine is a concentrated form of something that occurs naturally in a plant rather than some exclusive chemical compound.
 
2014-01-06 10:50:33 AM

offmymeds: But asbestos and paint chips with lead in them are still okay, right?

[www.dougydoug.com image 300x317]


No we covered this, do not buy toys from China.

Subby also forgot last years trend of letting kids eat detergent packets.  That is now a no, no.
 
2014-01-06 10:55:34 AM

mccallcl: Psychopusher: Some of unnecessary -- governments love to over-regulate.

In this case, I think the regulation will drive innovation to make the product more usable. I know you're in the industry, but the current delivery systems would be considered unusable if put through testing and focus groups. It's like filling your own tylenol gelcaps. I get the feeling that the e-liquid users are the test bed, because we put up with it, because it's addictive and almost anything beats smoking.


There are companies that sell simple kits with pre-filled disposable cartridges (for example, these guys).  That will likely become the mass market model, eventually, but I wouldn't expect the liquid ones to go away entirely.  There's always an enthusiast market.
 
2014-01-06 11:02:35 AM

Pangea: Psychopusher: Now that we've been able to decouple nicotine in a manner that lets people maintain aspects of the habit, nicotine is still considered the big bad demon, but it's simply not true.

I'm also not pushing for vaping to be illegal. I'll readily admit the nicotine was calming to my nerves when I still smoked.

It's quite obviously a push for moral puritanism that is conveniently wrapped in the "think of the children" rhetoric. People also drink alcohol, much of which is available in very tasty flavors that appeal to kids. We saw how well prohibition worked there, and as far as I know there have been no driving related accidents because people consumed too much e-cig vapor.


Agreed.  "Think of the children!" has been a big angle with the media for years now, because they come in various flavours and clearly children are the only ones that like things that have flavour, especially sweet flavour.  Adults hate sweets.

mccallcl: Psychopusher: Some of unnecessary -- governments love to over-regulate.

In this case, I think the regulation will drive innovation to make the product more usable.


That really depends. There are some regulations governments have tried to push that would not drive innovation, such as the 4mg limit per dosage unit some have proposed, where they consider a "dosage unit" one entire cartridge (approx. 1.2ml).  This is unworkable.  Nobody can get off cigarettes using less than 4mg/ml, and "cartridge" is not an acceptable definition of a dosage unit, since it takes the average vaper 2-3 hours to go through an entire cartridge.

I know you're in the industry, but the current delivery systems would be considered unusable if put through testing and focus groups. It's like filling your own tylenol gelcaps. I get the feeling that the e-liquid users are the test bed, because we put up with it, because it's addictive and almost anything beats smoking.

I'm not so sure.  This is a big question mark for most of us, but I'm inclined to think that liquid refill bottles will be acceptable because E-cigs aren't treated like medications or suppliments, which fall under medical regulations.  (Herbals notwithstanding.)  The FDA already tried for medical regulation and failed.  Refilling an E-cig with a bottle of E-liquid should and likely will be considered the functional equivalent of rolling your own cigarettes.
 
2014-01-06 11:16:24 AM

Psychopusher: Refilling an E-cig with a bottle of E-liquid should and likely will be considered the functional equivalent of rolling your own cigarettes.


Then what is mixing raw nicotine into VG or PG? At what point are people handling large quantities of dangerous poison in their homes without training or safety equipment? I looked into e-liquid manufacture as a home business. It's very easy to get started, but in order to do it "right" by my own personal standards, would mean several thousand in setup costs and specialized equipment: auto-pippettors, safety goggles and gloves, hairnets, eyewash stations, bottle-fillers and a manufacturing facility with a hazardous chemicals disposal contract.

I'm willing to bet most home-mixers are dumping lots of nicotine into the sewer and eyeballing their mixes. Mis-labelling and misuse by home users probably results in very inaccurate dosage. You can make changes to your device's settings that radically alter dosage. Nobody has died yet (I don't think), but eventually someone is going to get sick and will be able to pin it on their e-cig. And the guys who want to "do it right" can't compete with the home-mixers dishing out random dosages in untested packaging with potential contaminants to people whose identities and age they don't verify.

Some prime-time news magazine sending some bottles of e-liquid off to a lab and reading the results on-air would be a disaster for the industry.
 
2014-01-06 11:18:12 AM

mccallcl: Psychopusher: Refilling an E-cig with a bottle of E-liquid should and likely will be considered the functional equivalent of rolling your own cigarettes.

Then what is mixing raw nicotine into VG or PG?


Growing your own tobacco.
 
2014-01-06 11:29:49 AM
mccallcl: Some prime-time news magazine sending some bottles of e-liquid off to a lab and reading the results on-air would be a disaster for the industry.

A few of you seem next level here. This thread started out about kids having access to, and getting sick from, some liquid in their house.

Once you start talking about packaging and distributing the stuff for resale is becomes something else. You can't even package and sell cookies or iced tea on any scale without expecting to be inspected by some government body.
 
2014-01-06 11:31:06 AM

HeartBurnKid: Growing your own tobacco.


...if a tobacco leaf was deadly on contact, maybe.

I'm not shiatting on e-digs conceptually, I'm a user myself, but the reality is we are playing a dangerous game right now and we're getting away with it because no one is really watching. It's not the use of these things that needs regulation, but the manufacture certainly does.
 
2014-01-06 11:39:07 AM

mccallcl: HeartBurnKid: Growing your own tobacco.

...if a tobacco leaf was deadly on contact, maybe.

I'm not shiatting on e-digs conceptually, I'm a user myself, but the reality is we are playing a dangerous game right now and we're getting away with it because no one is really watching. It's not the use of these things that needs regulation, but the manufacture certainly does.


I guess it is a good thing the e-cig liquid isn't deadly on contact either.
 
2014-01-06 11:39:15 AM

Pangea: This thread started out about kids having access to, and getting sick from, some liquid in their house.


Which is a natural consequence of poor labeling and lack of regulation to make the caps child-proof and limiting dosage and bottle size to a certain percentage. 23mg is more dangerous than 14mg. A 6 oz bottle of e-liquid is more dangerous than a 30ml one. And any bottle of e-liquid is more dangerous than a pre-made disposable e-cig.

This will all sort itself out eventually, but I'd prefer to have sensible regulation without a health and safety scare that results in a panic ban while we "sort it out" (meaning, big tobacco will be granted control of the industry). Is there even an industry association of e-liquid mixers to self-enforce some standards and quality controls?
 
2014-01-06 11:40:02 AM

chozo13: I guess it is a good thing the e-cig liquid isn't deadly on contact either.


Pure nicotine is, which is what we were comparing to growing your own tobacco.
 
2014-01-06 11:43:12 AM
I got serious about quitting smoking 2 days ago. I went from 30 cigarettes a day to 8 in one day, with the help of vaping. I've smoked for the last 30 years. If I can cut back that drastically, that quickly, with something cheaper than cigarettes without as much tar and various poisons, I'd encourage anyone trying to quit to try it.

The patches and nasal stuff and gum and pills don't address a significant part of the habit, which is the rituals involved in smoking. This does.

In addition, the liquid you buy can be adjusted downward as you go. Meaning right now I'm using 12mg nicotine. But in a few weeks I can cut that to 6. And for the last month I can go to 0 to taper off and eventually quit even the ritual. So far so good.

Seriously, the overwrought fears of e-cigs and vaporizers is stupid. It's not regulated? Woopty shiat. Cigarettes are and they're filled with tar and dozens of chemicals and poisons. What exactly are THOSE regulations preventing....?
 
2014-01-06 11:45:27 AM

mccallcl: HeartBurnKid: Growing your own tobacco.

...if a tobacco leaf was deadly on contact, maybe.

I'm not shiatting on e-digs conceptually, I'm a user myself, but the reality is we are playing a dangerous game right now and we're getting away with it because no one is really watching. It's not the use of these things that needs regulation, but the manufacture certainly does.


So how many people have died as a result of nicotine spills in the process of home brewing e-cig juice? If it's such a clear and present danger, then you must have some statistical evidence, right?
 
2014-01-06 11:49:04 AM

mccallcl: Psychopusher: Refilling an E-cig with a bottle of E-liquid should and likely will be considered the functional equivalent of rolling your own cigarettes.

Then what is mixing raw nicotine into VG or PG?


Probably a no-no under any regulations that eventually pass.  At least not without registering as a licensed manufacturing facility and passing a health and safety inspection.

At what point are people handling large quantities of dangerous poison in their homes without training or safety equipment?

You mean like unclogging drains with corrosive chemicals or cleaning countertops with harsh cleansers or washing clothes with poisonous bleach or refilling their car's antifreeze reservoir or.........

I looked into e-liquid manufacture as a home business. It's very easy to get started, but in order to do it "right" by my own personal standards, would mean several thousand in setup costs and specialized equipment: auto-pippettors, safety goggles and gloves, hairnets, eyewash stations, bottle-fillers and a manufacturing facility with a hazardous chemicals disposal contract.

For the most part yes, that's exactly what it takes if you want to do it right.  I'd argue about the auto-pipettors, that's overkill, but safety equipment (goggles, gloves, booties, hair nets, eye wash stations, fume hood) and cleanliness considerations (HEPA filtration on intake an exhaust for the fume hood, hand sanitizer, chemical waste disposal protocols, etc.) and other random unnecessary-but-helpful bits (heated magnetic stirring plate, eg.) are required if you want to be ready for whatever regulations are to come down the pipe.

Yeah, right now just about anyone can get into the game without "doing it right" but those will be clamped down on once regulations pass -- and that's a good thing for the consumer.

I'm willing to bet most home-mixers are dumping lots of nicotine into the sewer and eyeballing their mixes. Mis-labelling and misuse by home users probably results in very inaccurate dosage. You can make changes to your device's settings that radically alter dosage. Nobody has died yet (I don't think), but eventually someone is going to get sick and will be able to pin it on their e-cig. And the guys who want to "do it right" can't compete with the home-mixers dishing out random dosages in untested packaging with potential contaminants to people whose identities and age they don't verify.

Some prime-time news magazine sending some bottles of e-liquid off to a lab and reading the results on-air would be a disaster for the industry.


I doubt that.  Most of us who are actually in the industry with a brand selling commercially go to great lengths to ensure accuracy and cleanliness. I'm sure there are some "bathtub mixers" out there selling privately to individuals, but those of us who have established a brand and are banking on the public's trust do everything we can to ensure that what we do is up to snuff.  It's in our own best interest to do so, and is in the best interest of the industry as a whole, which we all want to support and see thrive.
 
2014-01-06 11:50:50 AM

Horrorshow: The patches and nasal stuff and gum and pills don't address a significant part of the habit, which is the rituals involved in smoking. This does.


I don't want to be labeled as an activist ex-smoker, I merely want to offer my input related to my success quitting. The key for me was to break the ritual, more than the nicotine. I went on the patch and whenever I got a craving I relied on the fact that the patch was providing the nicotine I thought I wanted.

The psychological connection between a behavior followed by an immediate result reinforced the behavior for me. That's why vaping, nasal spray, or even the gum wouldn't work for me. Having a craving? Pop a piece of gum and get the result. I became dependent on whatever thing gave me the result.

The patch separated the weaning off nicotine from the oral-fixation and immediate response to an activity. Good luck in quitting.
 
2014-01-06 11:52:38 AM

Pangea: The patch separated the weaning off nicotine from the oral-fixation and immediate response to an activity. Good luck in quitting.


No snark either. I mean if you want to quit, then good luck.
 
2014-01-06 11:54:34 AM

mccallcl: chozo13: I guess it is a good thing the e-cig liquid isn't deadly on contact either.

Pure nicotine is, which is what we were comparing to growing your own tobacco.


Nobody mixes E-liquid from pure nicotine.  That's flatly idiotic.  Those of us who use high strength nicotine compound it down to easier-to-work-with strengths.  Most E-liquid manufacturers work with 100mg/ml in their day-to-day mixing.  I work with 200mg myself, compounded from pure, but compounding from pure absolutely requires a fume hood (ideally, a glovebox to be absolutely sure) and all safety protocols to be observed (gloves, eyewear, hair net, booties, smock, mask), because even the fumes from pure nic can make you ill.

Every commercial E-liquid maker knows this.
 
2014-01-06 12:03:46 PM

HeartBurnKid: mccallcl: HeartBurnKid: Growing your own tobacco.

...if a tobacco leaf was deadly on contact, maybe.

I'm not shiatting on e-digs conceptually, I'm a user myself, but the reality is we are playing a dangerous game right now and we're getting away with it because no one is really watching. It's not the use of these things that needs regulation, but the manufacture certainly does.

So how many people have died as a result of nicotine spills in the process of home brewing e-cig juice? If it's such a clear and present danger, then you must have some statistical evidence, right?


How many people have died falling out of hot air balloons? Do I have to prove to you that being way high up off the ground is dangerous before you agree that operators of hot-air balloons should be regulated and their use should be controlled?

There was a time before any astronauts died going into space, but we all knew it was dangerous. 40mg of nicotine is lethal for adults and as little as 1mg for children. You're arguing against the regulation of a toxic substance for producers, just so you know, not the storage or use by consumers. Stumping for business interests over consumer safety is an interesting choice.
 
2014-01-06 12:16:07 PM

Psychopusher: mccallcl: Psychopusher: Refilling an E-cig with a bottle of E-liquid should and likely will be considered the functional equivalent of rolling your own cigarettes.

Then what is mixing raw nicotine into VG or PG?

Probably a no-no under any regulations that eventually pass.  At least not without registering as a licensed manufacturing facility and passing a health and safety inspection.

At what point are people handling large quantities of dangerous poison in their homes without training or safety equipment?

You mean like unclogging drains with corrosive chemicals or cleaning countertops with harsh cleansers or washing clothes with poisonous bleach or refilling their car's antifreeze reservoir or.........

I looked into e-liquid manufacture as a home business. It's very easy to get started, but in order to do it "right" by my own personal standards, would mean several thousand in setup costs and specialized equipment: auto-pippettors, safety goggles and gloves, hairnets, eyewash stations, bottle-fillers and a manufacturing facility with a hazardous chemicals disposal contract.

For the most part yes, that's exactly what it takes if you want to do it right.  I'd argue about the auto-pipettors, that's overkill, but safety equipment (goggles, gloves, booties, hair nets, eye wash stations, fume hood) and cleanliness considerations (HEPA filtration on intake an exhaust for the fume hood, hand sanitizer, chemical waste disposal protocols, etc.) and other random unnecessary-but-helpful bits (heated magnetic stirring plate, eg.) are required if you want to be ready for whatever regulations are to come down the pipe.

Yeah, right now just about anyone can get into the game without "doing it right" but those will be clamped down on once regulations pass -- and that's a good thing for the consumer.

I'm willing to bet most home-mixers are dumping lots of nicotine into the sewer and eyeballing their mixes. Mis-labelling and misuse by home users probably results in very inaccurate dosage. You can make changes to your device's settings that radically alter dosage. Nobody has died yet (I don't think), but eventually someone is going to get sick and will be able to pin it on their e-cig. And the guys who want to "do it right" can't compete with the home-mixers dishing out random dosages in untested packaging with potential contaminants to people whose identities and age they don't verify.

Some prime-time news magazine sending some bottles of e-liquid off to a lab and reading the results on-air would be a disaster for the industry.

I doubt that.  Most of us who are actually in the industry with a brand selling commercially go to great lengths to ensure accuracy and cleanliness. I'm sure there are some "bathtub mixers" out there selling privately to individuals, but those of us who have established a brand and are banking on the public's trust do everything we can to ensure that what we do is up to snuff.  It's in our own best interest to do so, and is in the best interest of the industry as a whole, which we all want to support and see thrive.


We've heard this one before: protecting consumer safety is in the interest of business, so don't worry, they have our backs and will self-regulate. The consequences could be dire: you'd have to choose a new domain name and relabel all your existing stock.

Autopippetors are $500 and they're "overkill" when making a product human beings are ingesting? Wow.

What makes your business any different from the "bathtub" mixers? Do you have hazardous materials books? Do you have proper disposal of waste in specialized containers? Are your employees trained on what to do in case of contamination? Do you conduct lab inspections of finished product to ensure proper dosage?

Or is it the absence of an actual bathtub?

Consumers using home cleaning and auto care products is not a reasonable comparison, since the volume is so much lower. It would be more like jiffy lube pouring spilled oil into the toilet. Besides, we don't go after consumers to violate their privacy inspecting their use of products in their homes. We go after business distributing those products. Owning and operating a business is not like cleaning your countertops. You're expected to take measures to ensure you're not distributing poison to people or dumping it into the water supply.
 
2014-01-06 12:34:01 PM

Pangea: Horrorshow: The patches and nasal stuff and gum and pills don't address a significant part of the habit, which is the rituals involved in smoking. This does.

I don't want to be labeled as an activist ex-smoker, I merely want to offer my input related to my success quitting. The key for me was to break the ritual, more than the nicotine. I went on the patch and whenever I got a craving I relied on the fact that the patch was providing the nicotine I thought I wanted.

The psychological connection between a behavior followed by an immediate result reinforced the behavior for me. That's why vaping, nasal spray, or even the gum wouldn't work for me. Having a craving? Pop a piece of gum and get the result. I became dependent on whatever thing gave me the result.

The patch separated the weaning off nicotine from the oral-fixation and immediate response to an activity. Good luck in quitting.


No worries and no offense. I've tried all the other methods over the last 30 years. Not saying it'll work for everyone, but I've had more success in two days with vaping than with any other attempt. Of course it's only day 2.... :)
 
2014-01-06 12:54:41 PM

Horrorshow: No worries and no offense. I've tried all the other methods over the last 30 years. Not saying it'll work for everyone, but I've had more success in two days with vaping than with any other attempt. Of course it's only day 2.... :)


Just wanted to say best of luck! Just wait until your sense of taste and smell come back around week 4....

/3 months no cigarettes and counting
//pack a day 12 year habit
 
2014-01-06 12:57:36 PM

Horrorshow: Pangea: Horrorshow: The patches and nasal stuff and gum and pills don't address a significant part of the habit, which is the rituals involved in smoking. This does.

I don't want to be labeled as an activist ex-smoker, I merely want to offer my input related to my success quitting. The key for me was to break the ritual, more than the nicotine. I went on the patch and whenever I got a craving I relied on the fact that the patch was providing the nicotine I thought I wanted.

The psychological connection between a behavior followed by an immediate result reinforced the behavior for me. That's why vaping, nasal spray, or even the gum wouldn't work for me. Having a craving? Pop a piece of gum and get the result. I became dependent on whatever thing gave me the result.

The patch separated the weaning off nicotine from the oral-fixation and immediate response to an activity. Good luck in quitting.

No worries and no offense. I've tried all the other methods over the last 30 years. Not saying it'll work for everyone, but I've had more success in two days with vaping than with any other attempt. Of course it's only day 2.... :)


Good luck, sir!  I finished my last pack of Marlboro Reds on Friday evening and have had nothing except for the eGo-CTwist (18mg) since then.  I've never made it a full day without at least 1 cigarette in previous attempts so this is the first time I've actually thought that MAYBE there's a chance to eliminate a 23 year bad habit.

At this point, I'm not worried about the fact that I'm REPLACING one habit with another.  This one's cheaper...and less offensive to my wife and kids...and some of the juices are rather tasty...and I haven't killed anyone yet.
 
2014-01-06 01:15:56 PM
Hipster problem
 
2014-01-06 01:19:18 PM
1970s: Don't let your baby eat your cocaine. 1980s: Don't let your baby eat your crack. 1990s: Don't let your baby eat your heroin. 2000s: Don't let your baby eat your pot. 2010s: Don't let your baby eat your e-cigarette's liquid nicotine


1978: Don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys
 
2014-01-06 01:22:44 PM

Psychopusher: mccallcl: So require the use of child-proof caps on the bottles.

Already done.  99.9% of E-liquid bottles have childproof caps.  I never use anything but for my line of juices, and I also print clear warnings on all of the labels.  There are a few exceptions - many juice that come in glass bottles have non-childproof dropper caps. (Halo is one exception, they use childproof dropper caps.)  Some few small upstarts use non-childproof plastic caps, but they usually get called out for it in reviews, as well they should.


The problem with this is that 'child proof caps' typically aren't.  When I was little mom's primary way of opening 'child proof' caps was to hand it to me.  I'd typically get them open faster than she could, much less arthritic elderly could.

mccallcl: Some prime-time news magazine sending some bottles of e-liquid off to a lab and reading the results on-air would be a disaster for the industry.


They've done it.  The listing of ingredients found has generally been innocent enough that it's a non-news story.

mccallcl: Autopippetors are $500 and they're "overkill" when making a product human beings are ingesting? Wow.


Do you use an autopippetor when you're cooking dinner?  That's 'making a product human beings are ingesting'.
As for 'choosing a new domain name': 1.  It takes time to build enough brand recognition to have enough sales to be profitable, 2.  This stuff tends to follow you, especially when the types who smoke ecigs tend to frequent ecig forums.

What makes your business any different from the "bathtub" mixers? Do you have hazardous materials books? Do you have proper disposal of waste in specialized containers? Are your employees trained on what to do in case of contamination? Do you conduct lab inspections of finished product to ensure proper dosage?

1.  Does he need 'hazmat books'?  Isn't he handling precisely ONE potentially poisonous chemical?  MSDS sheets are a standard requirement, but we're probably talking about 1 thin binder.
2.  Specialized containers for waste - again, does he actually need it?  Propylene glycol isn't going to hurt the sewer system short of dumping bathtubs of it down the drain, and I imagine the goal is to NOT dump nicotine that he has to pay for anywhere other than the product.  Remember he's compounding, not running a chemistry lab; if he's doing it right the biggest waste chemicals will be cleaning agents, and most of those are drain friendly.  A contaminated nicotine batch should be containable within the same container it came in.
3.  If he's that small, maybe he doesn't have employees.  Though if he cares about his product & customers the answer would be simple - don't use or sell contaminated product.
4.  Periodic inspections are still a good idea.
 
2014-01-06 01:50:13 PM
Jeez. Not this thread again. I'm starting to think FARK is marketing e-cigs, or that some of the mods have e-cig stores peppered around the country and are trying to use FARK to promote their bullshiat oral fixation addiction replacement.

We get it. You need to suck on something. Why not just get yourself a pacifier and be done with it?
 
2014-01-06 02:02:11 PM
There is some sort of common theme to all of those but I can't quite put my finger on it.
 
2014-01-06 02:03:19 PM

mccallcl: HeartBurnKid: mccallcl: HeartBurnKid: Growing your own tobacco.

...if a tobacco leaf was deadly on contact, maybe.

I'm not shiatting on e-digs conceptually, I'm a user myself, but the reality is we are playing a dangerous game right now and we're getting away with it because no one is really watching. It's not the use of these things that needs regulation, but the manufacture certainly does.

So how many people have died as a result of nicotine spills in the process of home brewing e-cig juice? If it's such a clear and present danger, then you must have some statistical evidence, right?

How many people have died falling out of hot air balloons? Do I have to prove to you that being way high up off the ground is dangerous before you agree that operators of hot-air balloons should be regulated and their use should be controlled?

There was a time before any astronauts died going into space, but we all knew it was dangerous. 40mg of nicotine is lethal for adults and as little as 1mg for children. You're arguing against the regulation of a toxic substance for producers, just so you know, not the storage or use by consumers. Stumping for business interests over consumer safety is an interesting choice.


I take it the answer is "no", then? Despite all the people home brewing the stuff, and it being "deadly to the touch", you can't give me anything?

I shouldn't be surprised, I suppose, since you seem to think my arguing for home brewers to have the ability to mix their own juice is somehow an argument in favor of Big Business. It's pretty clear you aren't bothering to read much on this topic, including anything I write.
 
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