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(AZCentral)   1970s: Don't let your baby eat your cocaine. 1980s: Don't let your baby eat your crack. 1990s: Don't let your baby eat your heroin. 2000s: Don't let your baby eat your pot. 2010s: Don't let your baby eat your e-cigarette's liquid nicotine   (azcentral.com) divider line 110
    More: Obvious, poison control center, cigarettes, electronic cigarettes, cocaine  
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3254 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Jan 2014 at 6:35 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-06 06:32:07 AM  
Don't forget about you needing to protect them from GMOs and vaccines.
 
2014-01-06 06:37:01 AM  
Save the world a ton of money and don't have children in the first place if you can't control yourself enough that you have to get the fix for your addiction around your children.

/Booze counts.
 
2014-01-06 06:37:07 AM  
I have issues with both the 90s and 2000s on that list.
 
2014-01-06 07:01:20 AM  
Ugh, another anti-vaping story for the news.... At least someone figured out where all this is coming from:

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/state-local-politics/194395-wh y- do-nanny-staters-hate-e-cigarettes

Looks like Big Pharma is behind it.
 
2014-01-06 07:07:09 AM  
Gee, if only there was a warning letting people know they should keep things out of the reach of children. Oh, right. They're right on the side of the farking e-cig box.

Any child deaths from this, I'm chalking up to shiatty parenting and Darwin.
 
2014-01-06 07:10:41 AM  

desertfool: Ugh, another anti-vaping story for the news.... At least someone figured out where all this is coming from:

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/state-local-politics/194395-wh y- do-nanny-staters-hate-e-cigarettes

Looks like Big Pharma is behind it.


That's a totally unbiased article you linked to.

Or maybe you're just another e-cig ninny who likes to whine.
 
2014-01-06 07:11:36 AM  
If you're not smart enough to prevent your crotch-droppings from drinking liquid nicotine, the world has a way of pointing out to you that you really have no business being a parent.
 
2014-01-06 07:11:56 AM  
For the 70s, I think it was don't let your baby eat your downers (Quaaludes and Valium were both popular). Cocaine was still pretty cost-prohibitive for most baby-factory homes.
 
2014-01-06 07:24:47 AM  

stoli n coke: Gee, if only there was a warning letting people know they should keep things out of the reach of children. Oh, right. They're right on the side of the farking e-cig box.

Any child deaths from this, I'm chalking up to shiatty parenting and Darwin.


Oh my, it does say that.  First time I read it though.  Then again if I had any kids I'd probably want to poison them anyway.  Why do they capitalize "Children & Pets"?    They said "children" twice on the warning label.  They must like children,.
 
2014-01-06 07:28:28 AM  
Incidentally, you also shouldn't let your kids take big ol' swigs of bleach, lighter fluid, drain cleaner, cough syrup, axle grease, lye, hair spray, Windex, diswashing soap, WD40, or silver polish.

Any of you parents need any other pointers?
 
2014-01-06 07:32:45 AM  

Lenny_da_Hog: For the 70s, I think it was don't let your baby eat your downers (Quaaludes and Valium were both popular). Cocaine was still pretty cost-prohibitive for most baby-factory homes.


Not only is subby clueless about what the cool kids are doing, he doesn't even know what the uncool kids are doing.
 
2014-01-06 07:35:21 AM  
Can someone explain to me like I'm three why ecigs are bad for you? Aside from the obvious chemical addiction, that is?
 
2014-01-06 07:38:24 AM  

Herr Morgenstern: Can someone explain to me like I'm three why ecigs are bad for you? Aside from the obvious chemical addiction, that is?


Because it looks like your still smoking. And we can't have that. A lot of work has gone into publicly shaming smokers, and they can't figure out a way around that stigma that involves still enjoying themselves.
 
2014-01-06 07:45:39 AM  
So if the baby eats pot, it'll eat a lot of food, drool, and stare wishfully at simple things? Who the hell could tell?
 
2014-01-06 07:48:51 AM  
Anybody got a suggestion for a nice mechanical mod in the $60 range?
 
2014-01-06 07:49:10 AM  

Herr Morgenstern: Can someone explain to me like I'm three why ecigs are bad for you? Aside from the obvious chemical addiction, that is?


Because they have to regulate every single farking thing associated with tobacco. Its the principle for them and they won't give up.
 
2014-01-06 07:51:32 AM  

stoli n coke: Incidentally, you also shouldn't let your kids take big ol' swigs of bleach, lighter fluid, drain cleaner, cough syrup, axle grease, lye, hair spray, Windex, diswashing soap, WD40, or silver polish.

Any of you parents need any other pointers?


I seen people sit 10' away from their kids, texting, and watching TV while the kids ate out the dog bowl
 
2014-01-06 07:51:45 AM  
It doesn't stink, and that's the most important thing to me.

On the other hand, if you were stupid enough to start smoking, then you damn well ought to pay the piper when it comes to quitting cold turkey.

Herr Morgenstern: Can someone explain to me like I'm three why ecigs are bad for you? Aside from the obvious chemical addiction, that is?


Nicotine IS a poison. It restricts your bloodvessels, so a high concentration (such as in that E-cig fluid) will kill you or the ususpecting child if ingested.

BTW, if you wanna kill someone, then put a pack of cigarettes in water and let it sit for a few hours. Then filter the tobacco and paper from the water. Then somehow get them to drink that foul smelling water and BAM - they die from a mix of asphyxiation, heart attack and blood clots.

/RIP, you unsuspecting guppies from that high school project.
 
2014-01-06 07:52:49 AM  

stoli n coke: Incidentally, you also shouldn't let your kids take big ol' swigs of bleach, lighter fluid, drain cleaner, cough syrup, axle grease, lye, hair spray, Windex, diswashing soap, WD40, or silver polish.

Any of you parents need any other pointers?


Yes, please.  I only trust Fark for my parenting advice.
 
2014-01-06 07:57:05 AM  

Herr Morgenstern: Can someone explain to me like I'm three why ecigs are bad for you? Aside from the obvious chemical addiction, that is?


It's because the addiction is such a pain in the ass.  Much like cigarettes, you have to make sure you always have a supply, but instead of going to 7-11 once a week, you order it online.  Yeah, it's a bit cheaper but still dings my credit card each month.    And then you have to make sure it's full and charged when you go anywhere or even don't go anywhere.  I've gpt 3 batteries charging right now.  They take forever to charge.  I wish I could get the space on my desk back that they're taking up.

But the worst thing about e-cigs is they're not actually cigarettes.  There's nothing like setting actual tobacco on fire and smoking it.  It's the shizzit and some vaporized nicotine doesn't even come close to that experience,

And the addiction is what really sucks.   When I was growing up all I heard was "smoking is bad".   Of course I ignored that, but did anyone ever once say "smoking is addictive"?  No!
 
2014-01-06 07:57:26 AM  

cherryl taggart: stoli n coke: Incidentally, you also shouldn't let your kids take big ol' swigs of bleach, lighter fluid, drain cleaner, cough syrup, axle grease, lye, hair spray, Windex, diswashing soap, WD40, or silver polish.

Any of you parents need any other pointers?

Yes, please.  I only trust Fark for my parenting advice.



Okay. If you're going to iron your kids clothes, make sure they are not wearing the piece of clothing you intend to iron.

/Actual warning label. I shudder to think of the paste eater who necessitated that warning.
 
2014-01-06 08:01:10 AM  

Herr Morgenstern: Can someone explain to me like I'm three why ecigs are bad for you? Aside from the obvious chemical addiction, that is?


They mostly arent.  Nicotine has a number of health issues related to it, but thats about it.  All the other dangers of smoking are essentially removed from the equation.
 
2014-01-06 08:04:13 AM  

stoli n coke: cherryl taggart: stoli n coke: Incidentally, you also shouldn't let your kids take big ol' swigs of bleach, lighter fluid, drain cleaner, cough syrup, axle grease, lye, hair spray, Windex, diswashing soap, WD40, or silver polish.

Any of you parents need any other pointers?

Yes, please.  I only trust Fark for my parenting advice.


Okay. If you're going to iron your kids clothes, make sure they are not wearing the piece of clothing you intend to iron.

/Actual warning label. I shudder to think of the paste eater who necessitated that warning.


The thought has crossed my mind.  I put a shirt on and a little piece of fabric had folded over the button holes all the way down my shirt.

/It was 6am and I hadn't had coffee.
 
2014-01-06 08:04:50 AM  

Herr Morgenstern: Can someone explain to me like I'm three why ecigs are bad for you? Aside from the obvious chemical addiction, that is?


Because addiction is bad!  What's in the e-cig vials is unregulated!(1)
No safety studies!(2)

1. most are marketed in Europe where there are already requirements
2. which they oppose doing.  Still, studies of the common ingredients shows that it *should* be substantially safer than real cigarettes.
 
2014-01-06 08:10:52 AM  

Public Savant: Nicotine IS a poison. It restricts your bloodvessels, so a high concentration (such as in that E-cig fluid) will kill you or the ususpecting child if ingested.

BTW, if you wanna kill someone, then put a pack of cigarettes in water and let it sit for a few hours. Then filter the tobacco and paper from the water. Then somehow get them to drink that foul smelling water and BAM - they die from a mix of asphyxiation, heart attack and blood clots.

/RIP, you unsuspecting guppies from that high school project.


Ah, this old chestnut. You are aware that since nicotine has been divorced from tobacco smoke as a delivery method, numerous medicinal uses of nicotine have been found? Everything from treating and preventing ulcerative colitis, Alzheimer's and OCD to the management of OCD.

Saying "nicotine is a poison" is almost nonsensical. EVERYTHING is a poison, taken in large enough quantities. Hundreds of children die every year of acute dihydrogen monoxide poisoning. It's proven to be more dangerous than nicotine. Where's the regulation to protect the children from this dangerous substance?
 
2014-01-06 08:13:13 AM  

Alonjar: Herr Morgenstern: Can someone explain to me like I'm three why ecigs are bad for you? Aside from the obvious chemical addiction, that is?

They mostly arent.  Nicotine has a number of health issues related to it, but thats about it.  All the other dangers of smoking are essentially removed from the equation.


Yeah, it's just the nicotine, nature's pesticide. Inhaling toxic smoke does all sorts of bad things, but nicotine is the main toxin in cigarette smoke. Nearly as many people die of strokes and heart attacks caused by smoking as die of lung disease, and nicotine is what causes the cardiovascular problems. E-cigs are just as bad as cigarettes when it comes to delivering that daily dose of heart poison.
 
2014-01-06 08:16:22 AM  

Elegy: Public Savant: Nicotine IS a poison. It restricts your bloodvessels, so a high concentration (such as in that E-cig fluid) will kill you or the ususpecting child if ingested.

BTW, if you wanna kill someone, then put a pack of cigarettes in water and let it sit for a few hours. Then filter the tobacco and paper from the water. Then somehow get them to drink that foul smelling water and BAM - they die from a mix of asphyxiation, heart attack and blood clots.

/RIP, you unsuspecting guppies from that high school project.

Ah, this old chestnut. You are aware that since nicotine has been divorced from tobacco smoke as a delivery method, numerous medicinal uses of nicotine have been found? Everything from treating and preventing ulcerative colitis, Alzheimer's and OCD to the management of OCD.

Saying "nicotine is a poison" is almost nonsensical. EVERYTHING is a poison, taken in large enough quantities. Hundreds of children die every year of acute dihydrogen monoxide poisoning. It's proven to be more dangerous than nicotine. Where's the regulation to protect the children from this dangerous substance?


The dose makes the poison, true, but the amount of nicotine used in medical treatment is miniscule compared to the amount you get in recreational use. Shooting nicotine vapor into your lungs won't kill you in the short term, but it will greatly reduce your health in later life, and shorten your lifespan.
 
2014-01-06 08:18:50 AM  

gfid: stoli n coke: Gee, if only there was a warning letting people know they should keep things out of the reach of children. Oh, right. They're right on the side of the farking e-cig box.

Any child deaths from this, I'm chalking up to shiatty parenting and Darwin.

Oh my, it does say that.   First time I read it though.  Then again if I had any kids I'd probably want to poison them anyway.  Why do they capitalize "Children & Pets"?    They said "children" twice on the warning label.  They must like children,.


I sure hope you don't have kids.
 
2014-01-06 08:27:28 AM  
Subby forgot - "2014: Don't let your baby eat your legal pot in Colorado"
 
2014-01-06 08:28:37 AM  

Elegy: Public Savant: Nicotine IS a poison. It restricts your bloodvessels, so a high concentration (such as in that E-cig fluid) will kill you or the ususpecting child if ingested.

Saying "nicotine is a poison" is almost nonsensical. EVERYTHING is a poison, taken in large enough quantities.


Go here: http://www.durham.gov.uk/pages/Service.aspx?ServiceId=380

Press Ctrl + F. Thin type 'nicotine'.

Oh, my - it's a poison!

Also, you should make sure that you don't ingest any dihydrogen monoxide for at least a week. It would solve a few problems, I'm sure of it.
 
2014-01-06 08:30:01 AM  
Don't be a shiatty parent, timeless.
 
2014-01-06 08:35:03 AM  

stoli n coke: Incidentally, you also shouldn't let your kids take big ol' swigs of bleach, lighter fluid, drain cleaner, cough syrup, axle grease, lye, hair spray, Windex, diswashing soap, WD40, or silver polish.

Any of you parents need any other pointers?


Oh crap. BRB.

/kidding
//no kids
///'lessen you count the furry kind
 
2014-01-06 08:39:06 AM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: So if the baby eats pot, it'll eat a lot of food, drool, and stare wishfully at simple things? Who the hell could tell?


THIS.

FTA:
Ingesting e-liquid can give children a harmful or even deadly dose of nicotine. Rodgers said many cartridges contain more than 14 milligrams, enough to cause harm.
"And since children are not used to consuming nicotine, their symptoms may be more severe at lower levels," he said.
Symptoms include hyperactivity, flushing, sweating, headache, dizziness, rapid heart rate, vomiting and diarrhea. Even small amounts on a child's skin can cause irritation and a burning sensation. In very severe cases, a child's heart rate and blood pressure may drop dangerously low, resulting in a coma or even death.

 
2014-01-06 08:40:31 AM  
Farking little Bogarters.
 
2014-01-06 08:42:10 AM  

drjekel_mrhyde: I seen people sit 10' away from their kids, texting, and watching TV while the kids ate out the dog bowl


Last night at dinner: 
7 year old: I'm NOT HUNGRY!
Dad: Ea your dinner.
7 year old: I HATE IT. I'm NOT EATING IT.
Dad: Fine.
7 year old: I WANT ICECREAM!
Dad: You said you weren't hungry.
7 year old: MOM! Dad's being MEAN to me!
Mom: For heaven's sake, give him some icecream.

30 minutes later, the kid is picking his nose and eating the boogers.

Me: I though you said you weren't hungry.
 
2014-01-06 08:43:10 AM  

stoli n coke: Herr Morgenstern: Can someone explain to me like I'm three why ecigs are bad for you? Aside from the obvious chemical addiction, that is?

Because it looks like your still smoking. And we can't have that. A lot of work has gone into publicly shaming smokers, and they can't figure out a way around that stigma that involves still enjoying themselves.


I said this exact same thing to my wife yesterday...

gfid:

But the worst thing about e-cigs is they're not actually cigarettes.  There's nothing like setting actual tobacco on fire and smoking it.  It's the shizzit and some vaporized nicotine doesn't even come close to that experience,

I haven't had a cigarette in 3 days (which has not happened in 23 years) and vaping is satisfying some of that nicotine craving.  But there have been a couple times in the past two days that I've thought about trading one of my kids for a cigarette for the reasons you reference...
 
2014-01-06 08:48:37 AM  
But asbestos and paint chips with lead in them are still okay, right?

www.dougydoug.com
 
2014-01-06 08:49:47 AM  

Public Savant: Elegy: Public Savant: Nicotine IS a poison. It restricts your bloodvessels, so a high concentration (such as in that E-cig fluid) will kill you or the ususpecting child if ingested.

Saying "nicotine is a poison" is almost nonsensical. EVERYTHING is a poison, taken in large enough quantities.

Go here: http://www.durham.gov.uk/pages/Service.aspx?ServiceId=380

Press Ctrl + F. Thin type 'nicotine'.

Oh, my - it's a poison!

Also, you should make sure that you don't ingest any dihydrogen monoxide for at least a week. It would solve a few problems, I'm sure of it.


Wow. You provided me with evidence that the city of Durham, United Kingdom, has regulated nicotine as a poison and requires for you to have a valid permit to sell nicotine inside city limits.

Truly, you have proven beyond a shadow of scientific doubt that nicotine has no therapeutic benefits.

That sure taught me not to tangle with one of the foremost giants of intellectual debate currently active on the Internet. Let this be a lesson to everyone! Don't tangle with Public Savant! He'll bury you under a blizzard of peer review citations and make you look like a fool!
 
2014-01-06 08:57:38 AM  

mbillips: Elegy: Public Savant: Nicotine IS a poison. It restricts your bloodvessels, so a high concentration (such as in that E-cig fluid) will kill you or the ususpecting child if ingested.

BTW, if you wanna kill someone, then put a pack of cigarettes in water and let it sit for a few hours. Then filter the tobacco and paper from the water. Then somehow get them to drink that foul smelling water and BAM - they die from a mix of asphyxiation, heart attack and blood clots.

/RIP, you unsuspecting guppies from that high school project.

Ah, this old chestnut. You are aware that since nicotine has been divorced from tobacco smoke as a delivery method, numerous medicinal uses of nicotine have been found? Everything from treating and preventing ulcerative colitis, Alzheimer's and OCD to the management of OCD.

Saying "nicotine is a poison" is almost nonsensical. EVERYTHING is a poison, taken in large enough quantities. Hundreds of children die every year of acute dihydrogen monoxide poisoning. It's proven to be more dangerous than nicotine. Where's the regulation to protect the children from this dangerous substance?

The dose makes the poison, true, but the amount of nicotine used in medical treatment is miniscule compared to the amount you get in recreational use. Shooting nicotine vapor into your lungs won't kill you in the short term, but it will greatly reduce your health in later life, and shorten your lifespan.


Now we're talking valid debate.

Ok, so first - I doubt there are any studies that show the long term effects of just injesting (absorbing, inhaling, whatever) nicotine over a lifespan, primarily because nicotine only delivery systems haven't been around that long. Also, until ecigs came along (c. 2006) nicotine-only delivery was used exclusively for smoking cessation and not recreation.

Now that that's out of the way I'll freely admit that inhaling vapor all day every day is likely to have negative health effects? The question is, how much? As much as a lifetime of drinking coffee every day? As bad as working outside in a major metropolitian area? As bad as eating McDonald's for dinner every night of your life?
 
2014-01-06 09:14:36 AM  

Elegy: Don't tangle with Public Savant! He'll bury you under a blizzard of peer review citations and make you look like a fool!


You give me too much credit - I just picked a low hanging fruit.
 
2014-01-06 09:19:01 AM  

Elegy: Public Savant: Elegy: Public Savant: Nicotine IS a poison. It restricts your bloodvessels, so a high concentration (such as in that E-cig fluid) will kill you or the ususpecting child if ingested.

Saying "nicotine is a poison" is almost nonsensical. EVERYTHING is a poison, taken in large enough quantities.

Go here: http://www.durham.gov.uk/pages/Service.aspx?ServiceId=380

Press Ctrl + F. Thin type 'nicotine'.

Oh, my - it's a poison!

Also, you should make sure that you don't ingest any dihydrogen monoxide for at least a week. It would solve a few problems, I'm sure of it.

Wow. You provided me with evidence that the city of Durham, United Kingdom, has regulated nicotine as a poison and requires for you to have a valid permit to sell nicotine inside city limits.

Truly, you have proven beyond a shadow of scientific doubt that nicotine has no therapeutic benefits.

That sure taught me not to tangle with one of the foremost giants of intellectual debate currently active on the Internet. Let this be a lesson to everyone! Don't tangle with Public Savant! He'll bury you under a blizzard of peer review citations and make you look like a fool!


http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0446.html

It is a poison. An insecticide by the CDC's view of it.
 
2014-01-06 09:25:31 AM  

abrobi: Elegy: Public Savant: Elegy: Public Savant: Nicotine IS a poison. It restricts your bloodvessels, so a high concentration (such as in that E-cig fluid) will kill you or the ususpecting child if ingested.

Saying "nicotine is a poison" is almost nonsensical. EVERYTHING is a poison, taken in large enough quantities.

Go here: http://www.durham.gov.uk/pages/Service.aspx?ServiceId=380

Press Ctrl + F. Thin type 'nicotine'.

Oh, my - it's a poison!

Also, you should make sure that you don't ingest any dihydrogen monoxide for at least a week. It would solve a few problems, I'm sure of it.

Wow. You provided me with evidence that the city of Durham, United Kingdom, has regulated nicotine as a poison and requires for you to have a valid permit to sell nicotine inside city limits.

Truly, you have proven beyond a shadow of scientific doubt that nicotine has no therapeutic benefits.

That sure taught me not to tangle with one of the foremost giants of intellectual debate currently active on the Internet. Let this be a lesson to everyone! Don't tangle with Public Savant! He'll bury you under a blizzard of peer review citations and make you look like a fool!

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0446.html

It is a poison. An insecticide by the CDC's view of it.


And?

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh /npg/npgd0262.html
 
2014-01-06 09:29:44 AM  

DisplacedTexan: abrobi: Elegy: Public Savant: Elegy: Public Savant: Nicotine IS a poison. It restricts your bloodvessels, so a high concentration (such as in that E-cig fluid) will kill you or the ususpecting child if ingested.

Saying "nicotine is a poison" is almost nonsensical. EVERYTHING is a poison, taken in large enough quantities.

Go here: http://www.durham.gov.uk/pages/Service.aspx?ServiceId=380

Press Ctrl + F. Thin type 'nicotine'.

Oh, my - it's a poison!

Also, you should make sure that you don't ingest any dihydrogen monoxide for at least a week. It would solve a few problems, I'm sure of it.

Wow. You provided me with evidence that the city of Durham, United Kingdom, has regulated nicotine as a poison and requires for you to have a valid permit to sell nicotine inside city limits.

Truly, you have proven beyond a shadow of scientific doubt that nicotine has no therapeutic benefits.

That sure taught me not to tangle with one of the foremost giants of intellectual debate currently active on the Internet. Let this be a lesson to everyone! Don't tangle with Public Savant! He'll bury you under a blizzard of peer review citations and make you look like a fool!

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0446.html

It is a poison. An insecticide by the CDC's view of it.

And?

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh /npg/npgd0262.html


Yes but you're trying to say classifying nicotine as a poison is ridiculous, and it's not.
 
2014-01-06 09:33:18 AM  

abrobi: Elegy: Public Savant: Elegy: Public Savant: Nicotine IS a poison. It restricts your bloodvessels, so a high concentration (such as in that E-cig fluid) will kill you or the ususpecting child if ingested.

Saying "nicotine is a poison" is almost nonsensical. EVERYTHING is a poison, taken in large enough quantities.

Go here: http://www.durham.gov.uk/pages/Service.aspx?ServiceId=380

Press Ctrl + F. Thin type 'nicotine'.

Oh, my - it's a poison!

Also, you should make sure that you don't ingest any dihydrogen monoxide for at least a week. It would solve a few problems, I'm sure of it.

Wow. You provided me with evidence that the city of Durham, United Kingdom, has regulated nicotine as a poison and requires for you to have a valid permit to sell nicotine inside city limits.

Truly, you have proven beyond a shadow of scientific doubt that nicotine has no therapeutic benefits.

That sure taught me not to tangle with one of the foremost giants of intellectual debate currently active on the Internet. Let this be a lesson to everyone! Don't tangle with Public Savant! He'll bury you under a blizzard of peer review citations and make you look like a fool!

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0446.html

It is a poison. An insecticide by the CDC's view of it.


You guys know this argument is completely silly, right?  Yes, nicotine is a poison.  So are half the other things in your house.
 
2014-01-06 09:39:00 AM  
So require the use of child-proof caps on the bottles.

What did all the haters think people were going to do when they made smoking practically impossible? Quit cold turkey overnight and just suffer because it's what they deserve?

I think this is about punishment for "poor choices", and the anti-smokers want smokers to suffer because they lost someone to smoking and it hurt their feelings. Or they had to smell smoke and it stinks and so smokers must pay. Something like that.
 
2014-01-06 09:39:10 AM  
Pot was the "fashionable" drug in the 00s?

That doesn't seem right.

/drtfa
 
2014-01-06 09:41:34 AM  

HeartBurnKid: abrobi: Elegy: Public Savant: Elegy: Public Savant: Nicotine IS a poison. It restricts your bloodvessels, so a high concentration (such as in that E-cig fluid) will kill you or the ususpecting child if ingested.

Saying "nicotine is a poison" is almost nonsensical. EVERYTHING is a poison, taken in large enough quantities.

Go here: http://www.durham.gov.uk/pages/Service.aspx?ServiceId=380

Press Ctrl + F. Thin type 'nicotine'.

Oh, my - it's a poison!

Also, you should make sure that you don't ingest any dihydrogen monoxide for at least a week. It would solve a few problems, I'm sure of it.

Wow. You provided me with evidence that the city of Durham, United Kingdom, has regulated nicotine as a poison and requires for you to have a valid permit to sell nicotine inside city limits.

Truly, you have proven beyond a shadow of scientific doubt that nicotine has no therapeutic benefits.

That sure taught me not to tangle with one of the foremost giants of intellectual debate currently active on the Internet. Let this be a lesson to everyone! Don't tangle with Public Savant! He'll bury you under a blizzard of peer review citations and make you look like a fool!

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0446.html

It is a poison. An insecticide by the CDC's view of it.

You guys know this argument is completely silly, right?  Yes, nicotine is a poison.  So are half the other things in your house.


I think reason just prevailed
 
2014-01-06 09:44:19 AM  

Elegy: Ah, this old chestnut. You are aware that since nicotine has been divorced from tobacco smoke as a delivery method, numerous medicinal uses of nicotine have been found? Everything from treating and preventing ulcerative colitis, Alzheimer's and OCD to the management of OCD.

Saying "nicotine is a poison" is almost nonsensical. EVERYTHING is a poison, taken in large enough quantities. Hundreds of children die every year of acute dihydrogen monoxide poisoning. It's proven to be more dangerous than nicotine. Where's the regulation to protect the children from this dangerous substance?


Dihydrogen monoxide is essential for life. An expensive habit that the body doesn't need isn't

I'm not even trying to convince people not to smoke, but the medical argument is tenuous at best. There are lots and lots of substances that are very useful medically, but that only makes them LESS appropriate for liberal application by someone addicted to the effects in an uncontrolled manner.
 
2014-01-06 09:51:46 AM  
It should be 1960s: Don't let your baby eat your pot, and 2000s: Don't let your baby eat your meth.
 
2014-01-06 09:55:11 AM  

stoli n coke: Herr Morgenstern: Can someone explain to me like I'm three why ecigs are bad for you? Aside from the obvious chemical addiction, that is?

Because it looks like your still smoking. And we can't have that. A lot of work has gone into publicly shaming smokers, and they can't figure out a way around that stigma that involves still enjoying themselves.


Nothing particularly.  It's the current bugaboo the NIMBY's like to fuss over, Big Pharma wants to scare you away from because they eat into the profits of their ineffective NRT products, and governments want to warn you away from because it eats into tobacco tax revenue.  Everyone else who decries them and isn't a NIMBY is doing so because they're in the pocket of one of the other two.

E-cig liquid contains nicotine, propylene glycol (which you already consume regularly as it's in many, many things), vegetable glycerine (which you've also consumed, often used as the base for liquid medications), and food-grade flavourings.  PG and VG vapor are about the same, and have been extensively studied since the 40s and are generally recognized as safe.  Nicotine unto itself isn't particularly harmful when inhaled in E-cigs, about on par in terms of addictiveness and effect on the body as caffeine. It's highly poisonous if you drink it though, so yeah... don't do that.  And if you're stupid enough to leave it around for your kid to get at, you shouldn't be a parent, same as if you leave bleach or cleaners or other crap within ankle-biter reach.  Any any every E-cigarette and liquid manufacturer will state that right on the label.
 
2014-01-06 09:56:07 AM  

Public Savant: It doesn't stink, and that's the most important thing to me.

On the other hand, if you were stupid enough to start smoking, then you damn well ought to pay the piper when it comes to quitting cold turkey.

Herr Morgenstern: Can someone explain to me like I'm three why ecigs are bad for you? Aside from the obvious chemical addiction, that is?

Nicotine IS a poison. It restricts your bloodvessels, so a high concentration (such as in that E-cig fluid) will kill you or the ususpecting child if ingested.

BTW, if you wanna kill someone, then put a pack of cigarettes in water and let it sit for a few hours. Then filter the tobacco and paper from the water. Then somehow get them to drink that foul smelling water and BAM - they die from a mix of asphyxiation, heart attack and blood clots.

/RIP, you unsuspecting guppies from that high school project.


Should we notify the authorities that you are a murder, or are you just echoing back something you read on the internet and have no experience with in real life?
 
2014-01-06 09:57:46 AM  

mccallcl: So require the use of child-proof caps on the bottles.

What did all the haters think people were going to do when they made smoking practically impossible? Quit cold turkey overnight and just suffer because it's what they deserve?

I think this is about punishment for "poor choices", and the anti-smokers want smokers to suffer because they lost someone to smoking and it hurt their feelings. Or they had to smell smoke and it stinks and so smokers must pay. Something like that.


There have been other options on the market for a while.  Nicotine gum and nasal sprays immediately come to mind.  Vaporizers take it a step further, allowing the user to emulate the habits they may have been doing for years.  I'm glad it's an option to help people stop smoking.

However, I'd be a lot more emphatic about the "smoker's plight" if they weren't so damn indignant about it.  Yes, you have a right to smoke.  But it's one of those selfish, disgusting, and self destructive things you can do.  So don't get upset when laws are passed to make it that much harder or expensive to continue your habit.
 
2014-01-06 09:59:39 AM  

mccallcl: So require the use of child-proof caps on the bottles.


Already done.  99.9% of E-liquid bottles have childproof caps.  I never use anything but for my line of juices, and I also print clear warnings on all of the labels.  There are a few exceptions - many juice that come in glass bottles have non-childproof dropper caps. (Halo is one exception, they use childproof dropper caps.)  Some few small upstarts use non-childproof plastic caps, but they usually get called out for it in reviews, as well they should.
 
2014-01-06 10:06:03 AM  

Psychopusher: Everyone else who decries them and isn't a NIMBY is doing so because they're in the pocket of one of the other two.


False. You left out people who quit smoking and know you can too. I used to smoke, but I'm not anti-smoking. My mom is allowed to smoke in my car and in my house. If someone wants to vape around me more power to them, and I'm not getting money from anyone.

I do however refuse to see e-cigarettes as anything other than shifting one bad habit for a less bad habit. Just because someone refuses to sign-off on your bullshiat isn't the same as trying to say you shouldn't be allowed to do it.
 
2014-01-06 10:07:21 AM  

Elegy: Now that that's out of the way I'll freely admit that inhaling vapor all day every day is likely to have negative health effects? The question is, how much?


None at all, if we're just talking about the vapor, minus the nicotine.  Inhalation of PG vapor has been studied extensively since the 40s and no ill effects have been reported at all.  PG and VG vapor has been used in fog machines since fog machines have existed, and many hospitals pump vaporized PG through their HV/AC system because PG is an effective germicide.  (It's hygroscopic and basically desiccates germs by adhering to them.)

Add nicotine, and it becomes a mild stimulant and a vasoconstrictor, much like caffeine.
 
2014-01-06 10:10:59 AM  
stopped reading after "second Hand Vapor" ...


SERIOUSLY?

Non smokers are worried about water...


static1.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-01-06 10:11:50 AM  

valkore: Yes, you have a right to smoke.  But it's one of those selfish, disgusting, and self destructive things you can do.


I feel the same way about driving a car, so I'm not empathetic when people and their families get killed doing something stupid like driving to get iced cream. My empathy is not important, though, because the practical matter of people driving to get iced cream doesn't involve my feelings at all. So I am more interested in making sure that driving to get iced cream (easily more dangerous, selfish and anti-social than smoking) is not unsafe, insofar as I am interested in the safety of other people I don't know, which is to say not very.

If you think smokers are "indignant" about smoking, try stopping someone from driving and see how that goes. Usually requires the police to step in.

Psychopusher: Already done.


There's gonna have to be some regulation on this stuff, there's too much profit in making magic juice for $1.75 a bottle and selling it for $10. I imagine that eventually e-digs will have to be disposable and completely self-contained. There's no way the authorities are going to just let people DIY this stuff for much longer. For the record, I use e-cigs.
 
2014-01-06 10:14:32 AM  

drjekel_mrhyde: I seen people sit 10' away from their kids, texting, and watching TV while the kids ate out the dog bowl


There's nothing in dog food that will hurt a kid. At worst, it has an unpleasant taste.
 
2014-01-06 10:17:40 AM  

mccallcl: There's gonna have to be some regulation on this stuff, there's too much profit in making magic juice for $1.75 a bottle and selling it for $10. I imagine that eventually e-digs will have to be disposable and completely self-contained. There's no way the authorities are going to just let people DIY this stuff for much longer. For the record, I use e-cigs.


Most of it is convenience though. It's perfectly legal to grow tobacco in your own backyard. It's relatively trivial to dry and process it, which can be learned by a simple visit to a tobacco museum or watching a youtube video.
 
2014-01-06 10:18:55 AM  

Pangea: Psychopusher: Everyone else who decries them and isn't a NIMBY is doing so because they're in the pocket of one of the other two.

False. You left out people who quit smoking and know you can too. I used to smoke, but I'm not anti-smoking. My mom is allowed to smoke in my car and in my house. If someone wants to vape around me more power to them, and I'm not getting money from anyone.

I do however refuse to see e-cigarettes as anything other than shifting one bad habit for a less bad habit. Just because someone refuses to sign-off on your bullshiat isn't the same as trying to say you shouldn't be allowed to do it.


Point taken -- yes, the evangelical ex-smokers, I forgot about them.  "Just quit!  I did it, you can too!"  Yeah, no.  Not everyone is you -- thankfully.

And yes, to an extent E-cigs are shifting from a bad habit to a much less bad habit.  That's the point, though.  E-cigs aren't about quitting nicotine.  They're about harm reduction by quitting tobacco cigarettes.  Nobody is claiming otherwise.  (Or if they are, they've missed the point.)  Many of us have tried loads of other methods to quit and none of them worked.  Maybe we just don't have the willpower to quit.  Maybe we like nicotine but don't like smoking, yet couldn't unlink the two by any other means.  Whatever the case, vaping is an incredibly effective method of getting off of tobacco cigarettes.  It's also a significant threat to Big Pharma and the government's cash cows, and much of the controversy is manufactured.

Nicotine has been demonized for years in an effort to "denormalize" smoking by using nicotine as a convenient proxy for the stuff that's actually bad in cigarettes. (nicotine in and of itself isn't particularly bad -- no more so than caffeine -- but it's addictive and is what keeps people inhaling all the other bad crap in combusted tobacco, so it was a useful scapegoat.)  Now that we've been able to decouple nicotine in a manner that lets people maintain aspects of the habit, nicotine is still considered the big bad demon, but it's simply not true.
 
2014-01-06 10:19:13 AM  

ToastTheRabbit: stopped reading after "second Hand Vapor" ...


SERIOUSLY?

Non smokers are worried about water...


[static1.wikia.nocookie.net image 850x478]


Please don't tar all non-smokers with that brush.  Not all of us are this stupid and/or corrupt.
 
2014-01-06 10:21:02 AM  
2020s: Don't eat your baby. Thanks, Obama/Paul/Palin/whoever.
 
2014-01-06 10:24:25 AM  

HeartBurnKid: ToastTheRabbit: stopped reading after "second Hand Vapor" ...


SERIOUSLY?

Non smokers are worried about water...


[static1.wikia.nocookie.net image 850x478]

Please don't tar all non-smokers with that brush.  Not all of us are this stupid and/or corrupt.


sorry, second hand contact can subject you to the risk of stereotypes. As a user of the vapor based nicotine delivery system... former smoker... I am a bit bitter. I recognize its not your fault though.
 
2014-01-06 10:24:30 AM  
Damn, babies aint allowed to have any fun...
 
2014-01-06 10:25:25 AM  

mccallcl: There's gonna have to be some regulation on this stuff, there's too much profit in making magic juice for $1.75 a bottle and selling it for $10. I imagine that eventually e-digs will have to be disposable and completely self-contained. There's no way the authorities are going to just let people DIY this stuff for much longer. For the record, I use e-cigs.


Oh, I'm sure there will be plenty of regulation.  Some of unnecessary -- governments love to over-regulate. But much of it will absolutely be necessary and welcome.  I do fear that DIY will go the way of the dodo, I have to agree with you on that point.  Those of us who got into the industry already will likely have to be licensed or at least compliant with regulations in order to have access to the supplies to continue making E-liquid, while the end user won't have general access to liquid nicotine.  (PG and VG and flavourings will be readily available, though, that's common stuff you don't need a license to handle.)

Also, anyone who charges $10 for 10ml is a little overpriced.  I suggest an MSRP of $6.99 for a 10ml bottle to those who sell my line, but it's up to them.  My profit margin is under 100%.
 
2014-01-06 10:25:58 AM  

Psychopusher: nicotine in and of itself isn't particularly bad -- no more so than caffeine


Psychopusher: Nicotine unto itself isn't particularly harmful when inhaled in E-cigs, about on par in terms of addictiveness and effect on the body as caffeine.


Psychopusher: Add nicotine, and it becomes a mild stimulant and a vasoconstrictor, much like caffeine.


Okay, I think you're trying to tell us that nicotine isn't any worse to the human body than caffeine.  I haven't seen any studies comparing the two, though.  Do you have a link to one?
 
2014-01-06 10:27:02 AM  

Psychopusher: I suggest an MSRP of $6.99 for a 10ml bottle to those who sell my line, but it's up to them.


Ah, okay, now I think I see why you keep comparing nicotine and caffeine.
 
2014-01-06 10:36:50 AM  

HeartBurnKid: Yes, nicotine is a poison.  So are half the other things in your house.


Half?!?

Your house sounds safe.  I'd say, roughly, 80-90% of the things in my house are actively trying to kill me.  The other 10-20% are just waiting around for my carcass to drop.
 
2014-01-06 10:37:41 AM  

mbillips: Alonjar: Herr Morgenstern: Can someone explain to me like I'm three why ecigs are bad for you? Aside from the obvious chemical addiction, that is?

They mostly arent.  Nicotine has a number of health issues related to it, but thats about it.  All the other dangers of smoking are essentially removed from the equation.

Yeah, it's just the nicotine, nature's pesticide. Inhaling toxic smoke does all sorts of bad things, but nicotine is the main toxin in cigarette smoke. Nearly as many people die of strokes and heart attacks caused by smoking as die of lung disease, and nicotine is what causes the cardiovascular problems. E-cigs are just as bad as cigarettes when it comes to delivering that daily dose of heart poison.


I would definitely need a citation on that one.
 
2014-01-06 10:38:08 AM  

Psychopusher: Now that we've been able to decouple nicotine in a manner that lets people maintain aspects of the habit, nicotine is still considered the big bad demon, but it's simply not true.


I'm also not pushing for vaping to be illegal. I'll readily admit the nicotine was calming to my nerves when I still smoked.

It's quite obviously a push for moral puritanism that is conveniently wrapped in the "think of the children" rhetoric. People also drink alcohol, much of which is available in very tasty flavors that appeal to kids. We saw how well prohibition worked there, and as far as I know there have been no driving related accidents because people consumed too much e-cig vapor.
 
2014-01-06 10:38:40 AM  
Is this the thread where people confuse nicotine with tar in cigarettes?

/goody
//Still standing over my simmering pot of tomatoes, btw.
///added peppers to up the nicotine levels.
 
2014-01-06 10:42:59 AM  

Psychopusher: Some of unnecessary -- governments love to over-regulate.


In this case, I think the regulation will drive innovation to make the product more usable. I know you're in the industry, but the current delivery systems would be considered unusable if put through testing and focus groups. It's like filling your own tylenol gelcaps. I get the feeling that the e-liquid users are the test bed, because we put up with it, because it's addictive and almost anything beats smoking.
 
2014-01-06 10:46:56 AM  

mccallcl: Psychopusher: Some of unnecessary -- governments love to over-regulate.

In this case, I think the regulation will drive innovation to make the product more usable. I know you're in the industry, but the current delivery systems would be considered unusable if put through testing and focus groups. It's like filling your own tylenol gelcaps. I get the feeling that the e-liquid users are the test bed, because we put up with it, because it's addictive and almost anything beats smoking.


I would like to suggest that it might be more in line with all the companies who sell proprietary blends of health supplements. The nicotine is a concentrated form of something that occurs naturally in a plant rather than some exclusive chemical compound.
 
2014-01-06 10:50:33 AM  

offmymeds: But asbestos and paint chips with lead in them are still okay, right?

[www.dougydoug.com image 300x317]


No we covered this, do not buy toys from China.

Subby also forgot last years trend of letting kids eat detergent packets.  That is now a no, no.
 
2014-01-06 10:55:34 AM  

mccallcl: Psychopusher: Some of unnecessary -- governments love to over-regulate.

In this case, I think the regulation will drive innovation to make the product more usable. I know you're in the industry, but the current delivery systems would be considered unusable if put through testing and focus groups. It's like filling your own tylenol gelcaps. I get the feeling that the e-liquid users are the test bed, because we put up with it, because it's addictive and almost anything beats smoking.


There are companies that sell simple kits with pre-filled disposable cartridges (for example, these guys).  That will likely become the mass market model, eventually, but I wouldn't expect the liquid ones to go away entirely.  There's always an enthusiast market.
 
2014-01-06 11:02:35 AM  

Pangea: Psychopusher: Now that we've been able to decouple nicotine in a manner that lets people maintain aspects of the habit, nicotine is still considered the big bad demon, but it's simply not true.

I'm also not pushing for vaping to be illegal. I'll readily admit the nicotine was calming to my nerves when I still smoked.

It's quite obviously a push for moral puritanism that is conveniently wrapped in the "think of the children" rhetoric. People also drink alcohol, much of which is available in very tasty flavors that appeal to kids. We saw how well prohibition worked there, and as far as I know there have been no driving related accidents because people consumed too much e-cig vapor.


Agreed.  "Think of the children!" has been a big angle with the media for years now, because they come in various flavours and clearly children are the only ones that like things that have flavour, especially sweet flavour.  Adults hate sweets.

mccallcl: Psychopusher: Some of unnecessary -- governments love to over-regulate.

In this case, I think the regulation will drive innovation to make the product more usable.


That really depends. There are some regulations governments have tried to push that would not drive innovation, such as the 4mg limit per dosage unit some have proposed, where they consider a "dosage unit" one entire cartridge (approx. 1.2ml).  This is unworkable.  Nobody can get off cigarettes using less than 4mg/ml, and "cartridge" is not an acceptable definition of a dosage unit, since it takes the average vaper 2-3 hours to go through an entire cartridge.

I know you're in the industry, but the current delivery systems would be considered unusable if put through testing and focus groups. It's like filling your own tylenol gelcaps. I get the feeling that the e-liquid users are the test bed, because we put up with it, because it's addictive and almost anything beats smoking.

I'm not so sure.  This is a big question mark for most of us, but I'm inclined to think that liquid refill bottles will be acceptable because E-cigs aren't treated like medications or suppliments, which fall under medical regulations.  (Herbals notwithstanding.)  The FDA already tried for medical regulation and failed.  Refilling an E-cig with a bottle of E-liquid should and likely will be considered the functional equivalent of rolling your own cigarettes.
 
2014-01-06 11:16:24 AM  

Psychopusher: Refilling an E-cig with a bottle of E-liquid should and likely will be considered the functional equivalent of rolling your own cigarettes.


Then what is mixing raw nicotine into VG or PG? At what point are people handling large quantities of dangerous poison in their homes without training or safety equipment? I looked into e-liquid manufacture as a home business. It's very easy to get started, but in order to do it "right" by my own personal standards, would mean several thousand in setup costs and specialized equipment: auto-pippettors, safety goggles and gloves, hairnets, eyewash stations, bottle-fillers and a manufacturing facility with a hazardous chemicals disposal contract.

I'm willing to bet most home-mixers are dumping lots of nicotine into the sewer and eyeballing their mixes. Mis-labelling and misuse by home users probably results in very inaccurate dosage. You can make changes to your device's settings that radically alter dosage. Nobody has died yet (I don't think), but eventually someone is going to get sick and will be able to pin it on their e-cig. And the guys who want to "do it right" can't compete with the home-mixers dishing out random dosages in untested packaging with potential contaminants to people whose identities and age they don't verify.

Some prime-time news magazine sending some bottles of e-liquid off to a lab and reading the results on-air would be a disaster for the industry.
 
2014-01-06 11:18:12 AM  

mccallcl: Psychopusher: Refilling an E-cig with a bottle of E-liquid should and likely will be considered the functional equivalent of rolling your own cigarettes.

Then what is mixing raw nicotine into VG or PG?


Growing your own tobacco.
 
2014-01-06 11:29:49 AM  
mccallcl: Some prime-time news magazine sending some bottles of e-liquid off to a lab and reading the results on-air would be a disaster for the industry.

A few of you seem next level here. This thread started out about kids having access to, and getting sick from, some liquid in their house.

Once you start talking about packaging and distributing the stuff for resale is becomes something else. You can't even package and sell cookies or iced tea on any scale without expecting to be inspected by some government body.
 
2014-01-06 11:31:06 AM  

HeartBurnKid: Growing your own tobacco.


...if a tobacco leaf was deadly on contact, maybe.

I'm not shiatting on e-digs conceptually, I'm a user myself, but the reality is we are playing a dangerous game right now and we're getting away with it because no one is really watching. It's not the use of these things that needs regulation, but the manufacture certainly does.
 
2014-01-06 11:39:07 AM  

mccallcl: HeartBurnKid: Growing your own tobacco.

...if a tobacco leaf was deadly on contact, maybe.

I'm not shiatting on e-digs conceptually, I'm a user myself, but the reality is we are playing a dangerous game right now and we're getting away with it because no one is really watching. It's not the use of these things that needs regulation, but the manufacture certainly does.


I guess it is a good thing the e-cig liquid isn't deadly on contact either.
 
2014-01-06 11:39:15 AM  

Pangea: This thread started out about kids having access to, and getting sick from, some liquid in their house.


Which is a natural consequence of poor labeling and lack of regulation to make the caps child-proof and limiting dosage and bottle size to a certain percentage. 23mg is more dangerous than 14mg. A 6 oz bottle of e-liquid is more dangerous than a 30ml one. And any bottle of e-liquid is more dangerous than a pre-made disposable e-cig.

This will all sort itself out eventually, but I'd prefer to have sensible regulation without a health and safety scare that results in a panic ban while we "sort it out" (meaning, big tobacco will be granted control of the industry). Is there even an industry association of e-liquid mixers to self-enforce some standards and quality controls?
 
2014-01-06 11:40:02 AM  

chozo13: I guess it is a good thing the e-cig liquid isn't deadly on contact either.


Pure nicotine is, which is what we were comparing to growing your own tobacco.
 
2014-01-06 11:43:12 AM  
I got serious about quitting smoking 2 days ago. I went from 30 cigarettes a day to 8 in one day, with the help of vaping. I've smoked for the last 30 years. If I can cut back that drastically, that quickly, with something cheaper than cigarettes without as much tar and various poisons, I'd encourage anyone trying to quit to try it.

The patches and nasal stuff and gum and pills don't address a significant part of the habit, which is the rituals involved in smoking. This does.

In addition, the liquid you buy can be adjusted downward as you go. Meaning right now I'm using 12mg nicotine. But in a few weeks I can cut that to 6. And for the last month I can go to 0 to taper off and eventually quit even the ritual. So far so good.

Seriously, the overwrought fears of e-cigs and vaporizers is stupid. It's not regulated? Woopty shiat. Cigarettes are and they're filled with tar and dozens of chemicals and poisons. What exactly are THOSE regulations preventing....?
 
2014-01-06 11:45:27 AM  

mccallcl: HeartBurnKid: Growing your own tobacco.

...if a tobacco leaf was deadly on contact, maybe.

I'm not shiatting on e-digs conceptually, I'm a user myself, but the reality is we are playing a dangerous game right now and we're getting away with it because no one is really watching. It's not the use of these things that needs regulation, but the manufacture certainly does.


So how many people have died as a result of nicotine spills in the process of home brewing e-cig juice? If it's such a clear and present danger, then you must have some statistical evidence, right?
 
2014-01-06 11:49:04 AM  

mccallcl: Psychopusher: Refilling an E-cig with a bottle of E-liquid should and likely will be considered the functional equivalent of rolling your own cigarettes.

Then what is mixing raw nicotine into VG or PG?


Probably a no-no under any regulations that eventually pass.  At least not without registering as a licensed manufacturing facility and passing a health and safety inspection.

At what point are people handling large quantities of dangerous poison in their homes without training or safety equipment?

You mean like unclogging drains with corrosive chemicals or cleaning countertops with harsh cleansers or washing clothes with poisonous bleach or refilling their car's antifreeze reservoir or.........

I looked into e-liquid manufacture as a home business. It's very easy to get started, but in order to do it "right" by my own personal standards, would mean several thousand in setup costs and specialized equipment: auto-pippettors, safety goggles and gloves, hairnets, eyewash stations, bottle-fillers and a manufacturing facility with a hazardous chemicals disposal contract.

For the most part yes, that's exactly what it takes if you want to do it right.  I'd argue about the auto-pipettors, that's overkill, but safety equipment (goggles, gloves, booties, hair nets, eye wash stations, fume hood) and cleanliness considerations (HEPA filtration on intake an exhaust for the fume hood, hand sanitizer, chemical waste disposal protocols, etc.) and other random unnecessary-but-helpful bits (heated magnetic stirring plate, eg.) are required if you want to be ready for whatever regulations are to come down the pipe.

Yeah, right now just about anyone can get into the game without "doing it right" but those will be clamped down on once regulations pass -- and that's a good thing for the consumer.

I'm willing to bet most home-mixers are dumping lots of nicotine into the sewer and eyeballing their mixes. Mis-labelling and misuse by home users probably results in very inaccurate dosage. You can make changes to your device's settings that radically alter dosage. Nobody has died yet (I don't think), but eventually someone is going to get sick and will be able to pin it on their e-cig. And the guys who want to "do it right" can't compete with the home-mixers dishing out random dosages in untested packaging with potential contaminants to people whose identities and age they don't verify.

Some prime-time news magazine sending some bottles of e-liquid off to a lab and reading the results on-air would be a disaster for the industry.


I doubt that.  Most of us who are actually in the industry with a brand selling commercially go to great lengths to ensure accuracy and cleanliness. I'm sure there are some "bathtub mixers" out there selling privately to individuals, but those of us who have established a brand and are banking on the public's trust do everything we can to ensure that what we do is up to snuff.  It's in our own best interest to do so, and is in the best interest of the industry as a whole, which we all want to support and see thrive.
 
2014-01-06 11:50:50 AM  

Horrorshow: The patches and nasal stuff and gum and pills don't address a significant part of the habit, which is the rituals involved in smoking. This does.


I don't want to be labeled as an activist ex-smoker, I merely want to offer my input related to my success quitting. The key for me was to break the ritual, more than the nicotine. I went on the patch and whenever I got a craving I relied on the fact that the patch was providing the nicotine I thought I wanted.

The psychological connection between a behavior followed by an immediate result reinforced the behavior for me. That's why vaping, nasal spray, or even the gum wouldn't work for me. Having a craving? Pop a piece of gum and get the result. I became dependent on whatever thing gave me the result.

The patch separated the weaning off nicotine from the oral-fixation and immediate response to an activity. Good luck in quitting.
 
2014-01-06 11:52:38 AM  

Pangea: The patch separated the weaning off nicotine from the oral-fixation and immediate response to an activity. Good luck in quitting.


No snark either. I mean if you want to quit, then good luck.
 
2014-01-06 11:54:34 AM  

mccallcl: chozo13: I guess it is a good thing the e-cig liquid isn't deadly on contact either.

Pure nicotine is, which is what we were comparing to growing your own tobacco.


Nobody mixes E-liquid from pure nicotine.  That's flatly idiotic.  Those of us who use high strength nicotine compound it down to easier-to-work-with strengths.  Most E-liquid manufacturers work with 100mg/ml in their day-to-day mixing.  I work with 200mg myself, compounded from pure, but compounding from pure absolutely requires a fume hood (ideally, a glovebox to be absolutely sure) and all safety protocols to be observed (gloves, eyewear, hair net, booties, smock, mask), because even the fumes from pure nic can make you ill.

Every commercial E-liquid maker knows this.
 
2014-01-06 12:03:46 PM  

HeartBurnKid: mccallcl: HeartBurnKid: Growing your own tobacco.

...if a tobacco leaf was deadly on contact, maybe.

I'm not shiatting on e-digs conceptually, I'm a user myself, but the reality is we are playing a dangerous game right now and we're getting away with it because no one is really watching. It's not the use of these things that needs regulation, but the manufacture certainly does.

So how many people have died as a result of nicotine spills in the process of home brewing e-cig juice? If it's such a clear and present danger, then you must have some statistical evidence, right?


How many people have died falling out of hot air balloons? Do I have to prove to you that being way high up off the ground is dangerous before you agree that operators of hot-air balloons should be regulated and their use should be controlled?

There was a time before any astronauts died going into space, but we all knew it was dangerous. 40mg of nicotine is lethal for adults and as little as 1mg for children. You're arguing against the regulation of a toxic substance for producers, just so you know, not the storage or use by consumers. Stumping for business interests over consumer safety is an interesting choice.
 
2014-01-06 12:16:07 PM  

Psychopusher: mccallcl: Psychopusher: Refilling an E-cig with a bottle of E-liquid should and likely will be considered the functional equivalent of rolling your own cigarettes.

Then what is mixing raw nicotine into VG or PG?

Probably a no-no under any regulations that eventually pass.  At least not without registering as a licensed manufacturing facility and passing a health and safety inspection.

At what point are people handling large quantities of dangerous poison in their homes without training or safety equipment?

You mean like unclogging drains with corrosive chemicals or cleaning countertops with harsh cleansers or washing clothes with poisonous bleach or refilling their car's antifreeze reservoir or.........

I looked into e-liquid manufacture as a home business. It's very easy to get started, but in order to do it "right" by my own personal standards, would mean several thousand in setup costs and specialized equipment: auto-pippettors, safety goggles and gloves, hairnets, eyewash stations, bottle-fillers and a manufacturing facility with a hazardous chemicals disposal contract.

For the most part yes, that's exactly what it takes if you want to do it right.  I'd argue about the auto-pipettors, that's overkill, but safety equipment (goggles, gloves, booties, hair nets, eye wash stations, fume hood) and cleanliness considerations (HEPA filtration on intake an exhaust for the fume hood, hand sanitizer, chemical waste disposal protocols, etc.) and other random unnecessary-but-helpful bits (heated magnetic stirring plate, eg.) are required if you want to be ready for whatever regulations are to come down the pipe.

Yeah, right now just about anyone can get into the game without "doing it right" but those will be clamped down on once regulations pass -- and that's a good thing for the consumer.

I'm willing to bet most home-mixers are dumping lots of nicotine into the sewer and eyeballing their mixes. Mis-labelling and misuse by home users probably results in very inaccurate dosage. You can make changes to your device's settings that radically alter dosage. Nobody has died yet (I don't think), but eventually someone is going to get sick and will be able to pin it on their e-cig. And the guys who want to "do it right" can't compete with the home-mixers dishing out random dosages in untested packaging with potential contaminants to people whose identities and age they don't verify.

Some prime-time news magazine sending some bottles of e-liquid off to a lab and reading the results on-air would be a disaster for the industry.

I doubt that.  Most of us who are actually in the industry with a brand selling commercially go to great lengths to ensure accuracy and cleanliness. I'm sure there are some "bathtub mixers" out there selling privately to individuals, but those of us who have established a brand and are banking on the public's trust do everything we can to ensure that what we do is up to snuff.  It's in our own best interest to do so, and is in the best interest of the industry as a whole, which we all want to support and see thrive.


We've heard this one before: protecting consumer safety is in the interest of business, so don't worry, they have our backs and will self-regulate. The consequences could be dire: you'd have to choose a new domain name and relabel all your existing stock.

Autopippetors are $500 and they're "overkill" when making a product human beings are ingesting? Wow.

What makes your business any different from the "bathtub" mixers? Do you have hazardous materials books? Do you have proper disposal of waste in specialized containers? Are your employees trained on what to do in case of contamination? Do you conduct lab inspections of finished product to ensure proper dosage?

Or is it the absence of an actual bathtub?

Consumers using home cleaning and auto care products is not a reasonable comparison, since the volume is so much lower. It would be more like jiffy lube pouring spilled oil into the toilet. Besides, we don't go after consumers to violate their privacy inspecting their use of products in their homes. We go after business distributing those products. Owning and operating a business is not like cleaning your countertops. You're expected to take measures to ensure you're not distributing poison to people or dumping it into the water supply.
 
2014-01-06 12:34:01 PM  

Pangea: Horrorshow: The patches and nasal stuff and gum and pills don't address a significant part of the habit, which is the rituals involved in smoking. This does.

I don't want to be labeled as an activist ex-smoker, I merely want to offer my input related to my success quitting. The key for me was to break the ritual, more than the nicotine. I went on the patch and whenever I got a craving I relied on the fact that the patch was providing the nicotine I thought I wanted.

The psychological connection between a behavior followed by an immediate result reinforced the behavior for me. That's why vaping, nasal spray, or even the gum wouldn't work for me. Having a craving? Pop a piece of gum and get the result. I became dependent on whatever thing gave me the result.

The patch separated the weaning off nicotine from the oral-fixation and immediate response to an activity. Good luck in quitting.


No worries and no offense. I've tried all the other methods over the last 30 years. Not saying it'll work for everyone, but I've had more success in two days with vaping than with any other attempt. Of course it's only day 2.... :)
 
2014-01-06 12:54:41 PM  

Horrorshow: No worries and no offense. I've tried all the other methods over the last 30 years. Not saying it'll work for everyone, but I've had more success in two days with vaping than with any other attempt. Of course it's only day 2.... :)


Just wanted to say best of luck! Just wait until your sense of taste and smell come back around week 4....

/3 months no cigarettes and counting
//pack a day 12 year habit
 
2014-01-06 12:57:36 PM  

Horrorshow: Pangea: Horrorshow: The patches and nasal stuff and gum and pills don't address a significant part of the habit, which is the rituals involved in smoking. This does.

I don't want to be labeled as an activist ex-smoker, I merely want to offer my input related to my success quitting. The key for me was to break the ritual, more than the nicotine. I went on the patch and whenever I got a craving I relied on the fact that the patch was providing the nicotine I thought I wanted.

The psychological connection between a behavior followed by an immediate result reinforced the behavior for me. That's why vaping, nasal spray, or even the gum wouldn't work for me. Having a craving? Pop a piece of gum and get the result. I became dependent on whatever thing gave me the result.

The patch separated the weaning off nicotine from the oral-fixation and immediate response to an activity. Good luck in quitting.

No worries and no offense. I've tried all the other methods over the last 30 years. Not saying it'll work for everyone, but I've had more success in two days with vaping than with any other attempt. Of course it's only day 2.... :)


Good luck, sir!  I finished my last pack of Marlboro Reds on Friday evening and have had nothing except for the eGo-CTwist (18mg) since then.  I've never made it a full day without at least 1 cigarette in previous attempts so this is the first time I've actually thought that MAYBE there's a chance to eliminate a 23 year bad habit.

At this point, I'm not worried about the fact that I'm REPLACING one habit with another.  This one's cheaper...and less offensive to my wife and kids...and some of the juices are rather tasty...and I haven't killed anyone yet.
 
2014-01-06 01:15:56 PM  
Hipster problem
 
2014-01-06 01:19:18 PM  
1970s: Don't let your baby eat your cocaine. 1980s: Don't let your baby eat your crack. 1990s: Don't let your baby eat your heroin. 2000s: Don't let your baby eat your pot. 2010s: Don't let your baby eat your e-cigarette's liquid nicotine


1978: Don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys
 
2014-01-06 01:22:44 PM  

Psychopusher: mccallcl: So require the use of child-proof caps on the bottles.

Already done.  99.9% of E-liquid bottles have childproof caps.  I never use anything but for my line of juices, and I also print clear warnings on all of the labels.  There are a few exceptions - many juice that come in glass bottles have non-childproof dropper caps. (Halo is one exception, they use childproof dropper caps.)  Some few small upstarts use non-childproof plastic caps, but they usually get called out for it in reviews, as well they should.


The problem with this is that 'child proof caps' typically aren't.  When I was little mom's primary way of opening 'child proof' caps was to hand it to me.  I'd typically get them open faster than she could, much less arthritic elderly could.

mccallcl: Some prime-time news magazine sending some bottles of e-liquid off to a lab and reading the results on-air would be a disaster for the industry.


They've done it.  The listing of ingredients found has generally been innocent enough that it's a non-news story.

mccallcl: Autopippetors are $500 and they're "overkill" when making a product human beings are ingesting? Wow.


Do you use an autopippetor when you're cooking dinner?  That's 'making a product human beings are ingesting'.
As for 'choosing a new domain name': 1.  It takes time to build enough brand recognition to have enough sales to be profitable, 2.  This stuff tends to follow you, especially when the types who smoke ecigs tend to frequent ecig forums.

What makes your business any different from the "bathtub" mixers? Do you have hazardous materials books? Do you have proper disposal of waste in specialized containers? Are your employees trained on what to do in case of contamination? Do you conduct lab inspections of finished product to ensure proper dosage?

1.  Does he need 'hazmat books'?  Isn't he handling precisely ONE potentially poisonous chemical?  MSDS sheets are a standard requirement, but we're probably talking about 1 thin binder.
2.  Specialized containers for waste - again, does he actually need it?  Propylene glycol isn't going to hurt the sewer system short of dumping bathtubs of it down the drain, and I imagine the goal is to NOT dump nicotine that he has to pay for anywhere other than the product.  Remember he's compounding, not running a chemistry lab; if he's doing it right the biggest waste chemicals will be cleaning agents, and most of those are drain friendly.  A contaminated nicotine batch should be containable within the same container it came in.
3.  If he's that small, maybe he doesn't have employees.  Though if he cares about his product & customers the answer would be simple - don't use or sell contaminated product.
4.  Periodic inspections are still a good idea.
 
2014-01-06 01:50:13 PM  
Jeez. Not this thread again. I'm starting to think FARK is marketing e-cigs, or that some of the mods have e-cig stores peppered around the country and are trying to use FARK to promote their bullshiat oral fixation addiction replacement.

We get it. You need to suck on something. Why not just get yourself a pacifier and be done with it?
 
2014-01-06 02:02:11 PM  
There is some sort of common theme to all of those but I can't quite put my finger on it.
 
2014-01-06 02:03:19 PM  

mccallcl: HeartBurnKid: mccallcl: HeartBurnKid: Growing your own tobacco.

...if a tobacco leaf was deadly on contact, maybe.

I'm not shiatting on e-digs conceptually, I'm a user myself, but the reality is we are playing a dangerous game right now and we're getting away with it because no one is really watching. It's not the use of these things that needs regulation, but the manufacture certainly does.

So how many people have died as a result of nicotine spills in the process of home brewing e-cig juice? If it's such a clear and present danger, then you must have some statistical evidence, right?

How many people have died falling out of hot air balloons? Do I have to prove to you that being way high up off the ground is dangerous before you agree that operators of hot-air balloons should be regulated and their use should be controlled?

There was a time before any astronauts died going into space, but we all knew it was dangerous. 40mg of nicotine is lethal for adults and as little as 1mg for children. You're arguing against the regulation of a toxic substance for producers, just so you know, not the storage or use by consumers. Stumping for business interests over consumer safety is an interesting choice.


I take it the answer is "no", then? Despite all the people home brewing the stuff, and it being "deadly to the touch", you can't give me anything?

I shouldn't be surprised, I suppose, since you seem to think my arguing for home brewers to have the ability to mix their own juice is somehow an argument in favor of Big Business. It's pretty clear you aren't bothering to read much on this topic, including anything I write.
 
2014-01-06 02:55:43 PM  

Firethorn: They've done it.  The listing of ingredients found has generally been innocent enough that it's a non-news story.


Have they tested for nicotine content and compared it against the label on the bottle? There is no way I'm believing the dosage is accurate to 1%, unless the mix is done in a chemical manufacturing setup with automated measuring tools. I'd bet a paycheck that if you buy 1000 bottles from reputable mixers, you're going to find many are way off. Especially if you buy at retail locations that mix-to-order.

Firethorn: Do you use an autopippetor when you're cooking dinner?  That's 'making a product human beings are ingesting'.


Don't be ridiculous, I am not mixing 1ml of poisonous nicotine into 30ml of liquid, hundreds of times a day and selling the results to people. (I understand there's other manufacturing process to do it in bulk, but they come with their own problems. Replace "auto-pippetor" with auto-mixer or other standardized chemical handling equipment).

Firethorn: Does he need 'hazmat books'?  Isn't he handling precisely ONE potentially poisonous chemical?  MSDS sheets are a standard requirement


OK, so he does, but it's a thin binder? Well if it's only a thin binder, better not to bother I guess.

Firethorn: if he's doing it right


If he's doing it right, then he's inspecting and noticing that huge batches come out farked up and need to be disposed of. I went through all this in my research. If you mix in the bottle, the amounts are so small that you need specialized equipment, but don't have to worry about disposal since you mix just-in-time. Throw the fark-ups or overstock into the garbage and cringe. If you mix large quantities, you're going to end up with a gallon or two of unusable product every now and again, so you have to worry about disposal. Or you could just dump it down the drain and shrug, like an asshole. Which is what I would bet all of these manufacturers are doing, unless they were already set up to manufacture something else.

Every manufacturing business throws away some percentage of what they make as mistakes. "Don't make mistakes" is a platitude, not a responsible policy for waste management.

Firethorn: Though if he cares about his product & customers the answer would be simple - don't use or sell contaminated product.


Platitudes again. Dude  is not doing lab inspections, so all of this is one huge shrugfest. Inspecting the product would necessitate many of the proper precautions, but nobody even knows what they're selling to people so everything seems fine. So your customer gets a little buzz or the liquid tastes "weird", so what, right? No news is good news.

Stretch this to the scale of millions of users using several times each day, and someone is gonna get sick eventually from PG stored on the floor where rats can get into it, or some other manufacturing foul-up or tampering and the tobacco lobby is going to capitalize and then party's over.

The bottles aren't even tamper-proof. We expect more from a bottle of saline solution or rubbing alcohol. Ever handle a bunch of plastic stuff you get from China? By the end of the day, your hands are filthy. That's going into peoples' bodies if you don't rinse the bottles. The list goes on and on, the profit margins are huge and the work can be done artisinally and domestically because there are no regulations in place and the product is not tested for contaminants or accuracy.

Sorry to be a Debbie Downer, but this is serious business.

HeartBurnKid: I suppose, since you seem to think my arguing for home brewers to have the ability to mix their own juice


I did misunderstand you then. I don't care what people do in their own homes, as long as they are not labeling and selling products for human internal consumption that by necessity contains some amount of toxin without taking the necessary precautions to ensure that their manufacturing process is accurate and safe, for their customers, employees and the environment.
 
2014-01-06 03:24:20 PM  

mccallcl: Have they tested for nicotine content and compared it against the label on the bottle? There is no way I'm believing the dosage is accurate to 1%, unless the mix is done in a chemical manufacturing setup with automated measuring tools. I'd bet a paycheck that if you buy 1000 bottles from reputable mixers, you're going to find many are way off. Especially if you buy at retail locations that mix-to-order.


Make up your mind; accuracy within 1% is a different standard than 'way off'.  In my mind while 'way off' varies you're generally going to have to be at least double digit percentages off - not 1%.  Roughly speaking, 1% can often be within rounding.

Don't be ridiculous, I am not mixing 1ml of poisonous nicotine into 30ml of liquid, hundreds of times a day and selling the results to people. (I understand there's other manufacturing process to do it in bulk, but they come with their own problems. Replace "auto-pippetor" with auto-mixer or other standardized chemical handling equipment).

If I'm doing it hundreds of times a day I'd probably be getting the machine simply as a labor saving measure.  Let's see, $15 per bottle(google search on prices; midline, keep in mind it's 'boutique' so higher than average price), 'obscene' profits of $10 per bottle - 16-32 bottles a day to make a living wage, not hundreds.

OK, so he does, but it's a thin binder? Well if it's only a thin binder, better not to bother I guess.

The difference between a thin binder filled with the relevant MSDS sheets and 'safety books' is several orders of magnitude.  OF COURSE you bother to have the relevant safety documentation, but there's a big difference between needing books and books of them, and a few sheets.

mccallcl: Stretch this to the scale of millions of users using several times each day, and someone is gonna get sick eventually from PG stored on the floor where rats can get into it, or some other manufacturing foul-up or tampering and the tobacco lobby is going to capitalize and then party's over.


Why would rats get into PG?  Is there something about it I don't know?

mccallcl: The bottles aren't even tamper-proof. We expect more from a bottle of saline solution or rubbing alcohol. Ever handle a bunch of plastic stuff you get from China? By the end of the day, your hands are filthy. That's going into peoples' bodies if you don't rinse the bottles. The list goes on and on, the profit margins are huge and the work can be done artisinally and domestically because there are no regulations in place and the product is not tested for contaminants or accuracy.


Tamper proof containers are mostly for product that is either a theft risk or there's fear of adulteration due to being on store shelves and what not.  Something coming from a private manufacturer delivered by mail doesn't share the same concerns.

Or do you mean child-resistant packaging?  In which case you're back to my experience as a child - mom handing me that stuff to get it open quicker than she could.

Or you could just dump it down the drain and shrug, like an asshole. Which is what I would bet all of these manufacturers are doing, unless they were already set up to manufacture something else.

Hmm...  Do you have any evidence that the nicotine/PG would harm the sewer system?  By the way I think that once you move past 'Boutique' you need to take more complicated steps.
 
2014-01-06 05:14:28 PM  

DisplacedTexan: Horrorshow: Pangea: Horrorshow: The patches and nasal stuff and gum and pills don't address a significant part of the habit, which is the rituals involved in smoking. This does.

I don't want to be labeled as an activist ex-smoker, I merely want to offer my input related to my success quitting. The key for me was to break the ritual, more than the nicotine. I went on the patch and whenever I got a craving I relied on the fact that the patch was providing the nicotine I thought I wanted.

The psychological connection between a behavior followed by an immediate result reinforced the behavior for me. That's why vaping, nasal spray, or even the gum wouldn't work for me. Having a craving? Pop a piece of gum and get the result. I became dependent on whatever thing gave me the result.

The patch separated the weaning off nicotine from the oral-fixation and immediate response to an activity. Good luck in quitting.

No worries and no offense. I've tried all the other methods over the last 30 years. Not saying it'll work for everyone, but I've had more success in two days with vaping than with any other attempt. Of course it's only day 2.... :)

Good luck, sir!  I finished my last pack of Marlboro Reds on Friday evening and have had nothing except for the eGo-CTwist (18mg) since then.  I've never made it a full day without at least 1 cigarette in previous attempts so this is the first time I've actually thought that MAYBE there's a chance to eliminate a 23 year bad habit.

At this point, I'm not worried about the fact that I'm REPLACING one habit with another.  This one's cheaper...and less offensive to my wife and kids...and some of the juices are rather tasty...and I haven't killed anyone yet.


Former pack-a-day smoker for 25 years. I've tried patches (irritated my skin too much) and gum (yuck). I've been vaping for 2 months without touching another cigarette. I started at 18mg, now I am down to 12. Love my Ego-T. First time something really is helping me quit for good.
 
2014-01-06 05:16:57 PM  

Firethorn: Make up your mind; accuracy within 1% is a different standard than 'way off'.  In my mind


So right there we can spot a logic problem: my mind is not your mind. Also, it's possible for something to be way off and also off by more than 1%, they are not mutually exclusive. But I'll entertain it: +- 1% is way off for dosage of a chemical with mood-altering effects that has a relatively low threshold for overdose or toxicity. It would be unacceptable for any manufacturing operation, and any such product off by that much would likely be destroyed if found.

But of course, all of this is strictly academic because you'd have to test the product and no one is doing that. If you aren't testing the product there's no way to know that you don't occasionally send out a bottle of pure nicotine or rat piss. Has an association of mixers been set up to fund an independent lab to test samples? Of course not, because the mixers are greedy and don't really care about quality, just like every business since the beginning of time which is why there are regulatory bodies.

Firethorn: If I'm doing it hundreds of times a day I'd probably be getting the machine simply as a labor saving measure.


No one cares what you would hypothetically do if you felt it suited you. If you're mixing by eyeball and filling the bottles by eyeball you should be out of business, or you should have the professional pride never to go into business.

Firethorn: Tamper proof containers are mostly for product that is either a theft risk or there's fear of adulteration due to being on store shelves and what not.


Tamper-proof containers are industry-standard for almost any product consumed by human beings. It's a marginal increased cost and it's silly to argue about.

Firethorn: Or do you mean child-resistant packaging?


Yes, I also mean child-resistant packaging. And warning labels. And disclaimers about frequent use. All of that professional junk. Pennies per unit.

Firethorn: By the way I think that once you move past 'Boutique' you need to take more complicated steps.


I bet the complicated step of forming a limited liability corporation to protect the proprietor from lawsuits was a no-brainer. So, which standards are important and what levels of quality assurance are meaningful and useful? Whichever ones you coincidentally feel like doing or make economic sense?

Well great. That means the product needs to be tested and inspected to at least make sure you're selling what you say you're selling and it's not poisonous. I don't care if you make five bottles, if you don't do this you are a greedy piece of shiat, same as any other snake oil salesman.

Firethorn: Do you have any evidence that the nicotine/PG would harm the sewer system?


http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/hwtr/pharmaceuticals/pages/nicotine.h tm l

On nicotine:

Manage as a dangerous waste at a RCRA-permitted facility.  It is a violation of the  Dangerous Waste Regulations to dispose of these pharmaceuticals in the sewer, sharps container, or a regulated medical waste container.
Under the  Dangerous Waste Regulations, accumulating more than 2.2 pounds of any P-listed waste, including nicotine, will make you a large quantity generator.  See the regulations for more information: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=173-303 Chapter 173-303 WAC.

Out of curiosity, what's your angle here? Do you make e-liquids? Just an anti-regulation freak? Bored idiot?
 
2014-01-06 06:40:32 PM  

mccallcl: So I am more interested in making sure that driving to get iced cream (easily more dangerous, selfish and anti-social than smoking)


You could quibble with the CDCs methodology, but you would have to massage their numbers by over an order of magnitude to align with your world view:

U.S. Deaths per year from driving accidents: 42,000 (includes alcohol-related)
U.S. Deaths per year from smoking: 440,000 (includes second hand smoke)
U.S. Deaths per year from second hand smoke: 49,000

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0908129.html
http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effect s/ tobacco_related_mortality/

I would also say that sharing food is much more social than smoking tobacco, but that's a subjective opinion. One could theoretically come up with a way to measure that, but I don't have the data.
 
2014-01-06 07:39:08 PM  

LindenFark: mccallcl: So I am more interested in making sure that driving to get iced cream (easily more dangerous, selfish and anti-social than smoking)

You could quibble with the CDCs methodology, but you would have to massage their numbers by over an order of magnitude to align with your world view:

U.S. Deaths per year from driving accidents: 42,000 (includes alcohol-related)
U.S. Deaths per year from smoking: 440,000 (includes second hand smoke)
U.S. Deaths per year from second hand smoke: 49,000

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0908129.html
http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effect s/ tobacco_related_mortality/

I would also say that sharing food is much more social than smoking tobacco, but that's a subjective opinion. One could theoretically come up with a way to measure that, but I don't have the data.


I said more dangerous not more deadly. 3,000,000 injured per year in car accidents:

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811552.pdf

Sorry you misunderstood thanks for the research though, good attempt.
 
2014-01-06 07:54:26 PM  

mccallcl: LindenFark: mccallcl: So I am more interested in making sure that driving to get iced cream (easily more dangerous, selfish and anti-social than smoking)

You could quibble with the CDCs methodology, but you would have to massage their numbers by over an order of magnitude to align with your world view:

U.S. Deaths per year from driving accidents: 42,000 (includes alcohol-related)
U.S. Deaths per year from smoking: 440,000 (includes second hand smoke)
U.S. Deaths per year from second hand smoke: 49,000

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0908129.html
http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effect s/ tobacco_related_mortality/

I would also say that sharing food is much more social than smoking tobacco, but that's a subjective opinion. One could theoretically come up with a way to measure that, but I don't have the data.

I said more dangerous not more deadly. 3,000,000 injured per year in car accidents:

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811552.pdf

Sorry you misunderstood thanks for the research though, good attempt.


First, you're rounding 2.2 million up to 3 million. Second, the data are not useful unless you have comparable stats on smoking injuries that are not fatalities.
 
2014-01-07 11:39:45 AM  

mccallcl: But I'll entertain it: +- 1% is way off for dosage of a chemical with mood-altering effects that has a relatively low threshold for overdose or toxicity.


Like alcohol?  I'm sure the major companies are incredibly close, but there's a lot of craft brewers out there today.  How about the tobacco people already smoke itself?  Between cigarettes, pipes, chewing tobacco, and all the other variations of extracting the nicotine from tobacco in order to get you dosage I'm SURE that doses vary more.  Either nicotine isn't that crazy of a poison or people have some sort of regulation method to control dosage.  If anything I'd think that vaporizers would allow more close control than sucking on a cigarette.

As such, I'm going to toss in my standard libertarian spiel:  Before we go expanding the government, how about you SHOW that lack of regulation is causing actual harm, as opposed to supporting regulating something that MIGHT cause harm?  Most of the regulations passed in the old days were in response to very real problems.

Tamper-proof containers are industry-standard for almost any product consumed by human beings. It's a marginal increased cost and it's silly to argue about.

The vast majority of products I consume do not come in any sort of tamper proof container.

Yes, I also mean child-resistant packaging. And warning labels. And disclaimers about frequent use. All of that professional junk. Pennies per unit.

As I pointed out earlier, I believe that 'child resistant packaging' is generally worthless.  I'll repeat: As a child mom would hand me the 'child-proof' stuff to open.  I'd get it open faster than a competent adult could, much less an arthritic one.  I'm fine with warning labels, though I wonder about the effectiveness of 'disclaimers about frequent use' seeing as how ecigs have insufficient testing yet to draft appropriate warning labels and most people are transitioning from cigarettes(much more dangerous) to them.

I bet the complicated step of forming a limited liability corporation to protect the proprietor from lawsuits was a no-brainer. So, which standards are important and what levels of quality assurance are meaningful and useful? Whichever ones you coincidentally feel like doing or make economic sense?

Easy enough - standards that are  designed to address real problems causing real harm, not potential problems that haven't been proven to cause harm that exceeds the average thresholds - Stuff like red meat, alcohol, regular tobacco, etc...

Of course, a limited liability corporation is less useful for a small business operator than you might think.  Because he's also doing the work they can still come after his assets that aren't in the corp.

mccallcl: Out of curiosity, what's your angle here? Do you make e-liquids? Just an anti-regulation freak? Bored idiot?


The libertarian comment above probably already answered your question.  Anti-regulation freak if it wasn't clear enough.  BTW, I don't use nicotine in any form(or drink for that matter), lost a grandmother to smoking(long cancer that metastasized to the brain).  From what I've seen e-cigs/vaporizers are likely not harmless, but much safer than cigarettes.  As such I'd rather go after the cigarettes.

Of course, I also campaign for legalizing 'most' drugs, including manufacturing and distribution channels, regulating them somewhere between tobacco, alcohol, and medical drugs.  IE it had better be of the stated strength and cut with safe materials.  I'll note that I support 'random' consumers lab testing products coming out of various manufacturers at different times.

All this is in pursuit balancing personal freedom with harm mitigation, as opposed to harm prevention, a much more expensive standard.  I honestly believe that we'd be better off with legal drugs which would defund the gangs to a large extent and help counter initiatives to expand police powers in response to the failing drug war.
 
2014-01-07 11:55:11 AM  

mccallcl: Manage as a dangerous waste at a RCRA-permitted facility. It is a violation of the Dangerous Waste Regulations to dispose of these pharmaceuticals in the sewer, sharps container, or a regulated medical waste container.
Under the Dangerous Waste Regulations, accumulating more than 2.2 pounds of any P-listed waste, including nicotine, will make you a large quantity generator. See the regulations for more information: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=173-303 Chapter 173-303 WAC.


Sorry, missed this earlier.  I reviewed the link you mentioned, it concerns hospitals, which will probably generate more than 2.2 pounds of waste nicotine products a month, much less 'P-listed waste'.  Washington state considers any site that produces less than 2.2 pounds of "Acutely Hazardous Waste" a month to be a small quantity generator and the rules on them are pretty lax.  I found the part about triple rinsing products to render them non-hazardous(dispose in trash as opposed to hazardous materials container), but banning dumping in sewers funny.

For example, reading through the site the Hospital is required to treat many products as hazardous waste that would simply end up in the trash for a home user - and a lot of the products are used more at home than in a hospital.  Nicotine patches, for example.

Thus my Boutique standard - If the business is so small that it's a full time job or less for only a single person, no employees, and doesn't really take up more than one room of a house, the standards are lower than if it's big enough to move outside the home and/or hire more people.
 
2014-01-07 01:04:25 PM  

stoli n coke: Incidentally, you also shouldn't let your kids take big ol' swigs of bleach, lighter fluid, drain cleaner, cough syrup, axle grease, lye, hair spray, Windex, diswashing soap, WD40, or silver polish.


Uh ... have you ever tried swigging axle grease?
 
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