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(News.com.au)   Bishop complains Church is 'dumbing down' baptism. Oh, go soak your head   (news.com.au) divider line 77
    More: Stupid, churches, baptisms, Ali Said, bishops  
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2784 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Jan 2014 at 4:05 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-05 05:24:12 PM  

thamike: buckler: simplicimus: To answer your question, infant baptism is a measure to keep dead infant's souls from going to hell by absolving them of original sin. It's an old practice from a time of much higher infant mortality rates than currently.

So innocent babies who die unbaptized are automatically hell-bound? That sounds brutal, even for Christians.

They don't go to Hell, they wind up in the bargain bin in Purgatory, to serve as sports equipment for dead realtors.


Well, Catholics used to have Limbo for the infants. So, not heaven and not hell.
 
2014-01-05 05:30:06 PM  
It's the Anglicans. They've pretty much dumbed down everything else, already. It's not like it's a real church doing this. Anglicans have just been playing at church for decades.
 
2014-01-05 05:35:15 PM  
Nobody point how how few parents take an active stand against Satan and their offspring?  Some people still do: http://www.fark.com/comments/8082749/88477002#c88477002

Real Christians understand the importance of denying Satan and that Jesus comes to pitch brother against brother, and families against one another.
 
2014-01-05 05:37:25 PM  

Mouser: gweilo8888: Incidentally, the goal is not to "raise the child to eventually be able to answer for themselves" so much as it is to "raise the child to give the answer that's been drilled into them since childbirth". There's an important distinction here: One involves critical thinking, and the other involves rote learning or brainwashing, depending on the degree of indoctrination used.

Your issues with your parents are your problem, not mine.


I guess I made liars out of my parents.  After I was born, I was baptized in a Roman Catholic church.  Growing up, I was dragged to a non-denominational Christian church until I was almost 17.  Was placed in youth group, bible studies, summer church camps, the works.  After we moved to another state, my parents finally stopped their attempts to make me a Born Again Christian (tm).  I suppose they feel like they failed me, and their faith, at some level.  They still go to church.  I haven't gone since we moved, except for a handful of times when I've visited my parents during the holidays and was guilted into going.

The reason I rebuked my parents' attempts?  Critical thinking.
 
2014-01-05 05:41:25 PM  
How complicated can it possibly be? Pastor/Priest gives a little speech then dunks you.
 
2014-01-05 05:43:32 PM  
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2014-01-05 05:52:55 PM  
How do they actually find out if the "trial" version works?
 
2014-01-05 05:56:42 PM  

Pointy Tail of Satan: How do they actually find out if the "trial" version works?


Instance a VM and see what happens. Then see what happens on non-abstracted hardware.
 
2014-01-05 06:00:39 PM  

yet_another_wumpus: Real Christians understand [...]


Translation: I am a bigot and have no interest in a discussion among equals.  I might also be unfamiliar with the book of Matthew.
 
2014-01-05 06:08:36 PM  
I'll just leave this here

http://healthyliving.msn.com/blogs/daily-apple-blog-post?post=0a9726 86 -a8a6-4081-b020-c5c12c72cc34

I actually asked a priest about contamination in the Baptismal font and he said that as long as you are a believer, God will bless you so you won't get sick from the holy water.

Yeah, right.
 
2014-01-05 06:32:23 PM  

Mouser: No surprise, we're talking about the Anglican Church here.  They've been dumbing down Christianity since the days of Henry VIII.


At least we don't run interference for sexual predators as a sacrament, like the papists.
 
2014-01-05 06:35:08 PM  

thamike: megarian: thamike: How does one "dumb down" water boarding infants?

They get dipped in water.

You know, like a bath.

Yeah, that's what I tried to explain to my niece/goddaughter as she balefully eyed me, betrayed and brokenhearted, as the priest read the end of The Godfather screenplay.  It's a stupid f*cking practice.  I hated it, and so does everybody else who isn't in a spritz-my-forehead denomination.  And for what?  Bullsh*t.


I think it's stupid. I'm not Christian.

But it's not harmful. You're putting a baby in water for a second, FFS. They'll live.
 
2014-01-05 06:39:06 PM  

phlegmmo: No mention of the devil or sin is made in the trial version.

And that's what dumbs it down?


It's what makes Christianity inconsistent for anyone who's halfway decent at logic. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then he knew that the devil and sin would happen before he created anything. Theodicy has attempted increasingly desperate explanations for hundreds of years (Google "transworld depravity" for an example). However, at the end of the day, Christians can't make any of the explanations hold water - especially to someone who's sufficiently educated. It is easier to ignore the devil and sin.
 
2014-01-05 07:25:30 PM  

Mouser: Your issues with your parents are your problem, not mine.


I have no such issues with my parents. In fact, the very opposite -- my parents (while both raised somewhat religiously themselves) actively promoted my thinking for myself, with the result that I am not religious.

But you go ahead and believe what you want to, all while ignoring the crux of my point -- that baptism is not even remotely what Benevolent Misanthrope represented it to be.
 
2014-01-05 08:31:22 PM  

thamike: megarian: thamike: How does one "dumb down" water boarding infants?

They get dipped in water.

You know, like a bath.

Yeah, that's what I tried to explain to my niece/goddaughter as she balefully eyed me, betrayed and brokenhearted, as the priest read the end of The Godfather screenplay.  It's a stupid f*cking practice.  I hated it, and so does everybody else who isn't in a spritz-my-forehead denomination.  And for what?  Bullsh*t.


Actually, if the priest is doing it right, it's not supposed to be any more physically dangerous than rinsing hair. The trauma usually comes because the dumbasses never warm up the water and do it in front of a church instead of with Mommy cooing at them.

/Seriously, you'd think they'd warm the water up, it's for  babies.
 
2014-01-05 08:59:42 PM  

simplicimus: buckler: Benevolent Misanthrope: Baptism is about accepting a god and all his teaching as revealed through the church, and rejecting the Devil and all his works.  Not saying that kind of defeats the purpose.

And how well-equipped is a baby to accept that choice?

I don't know how it works with Anglicans, but for Catholics, there are three more opportunities after Baptism to re-affirm your faith. Four if you get married or join the clergy. Five if you're awake during Last Rites.


For Episcopalians, as with Catholics, this opportunity comes every Easter.when we affirm our faith.  You may also call the Nicene Creed an affirmation.
 
2014-01-05 09:31:29 PM  
Excellent work, submitter.
 
2014-01-06 12:11:24 AM  

Mouser: You're talking about the difference between adult baptism and infant baptism.  A number of Protestant sects argue that only someone who can speak for themselves can truly accept baptism, because they have to understand the questions of faith being put to them in the ceremony.  It's a reasonable argument, but one not supported by tradition.

During infant baptism the questions of faith are asked of the child's parents, who answer on behalf of the child with the expectation that they will raise the child to eventually be able to answer for themselves.  Giving parents the authority to do so dates back to the early days of the Church when men accepted baptism on behalf of themselves and their households.


buckler: So innocent babies who die unbaptized are automatically hell-bound? That sounds brutal, even for Christians.


RLDS cliff note.
Interesting enough, the Book of Mormon clearly discusses this, as well sinfulness of polygamy.  In one the last books of BofM, this topic is tackled very clearly that not only baptizing babies should not be done, but it is sinful to suggest that babies are hell bound if not baptized.  It was stated that babies are incapable of sin, incapable of making the decision, and therefore incapable making the covenant that involves baptism.  It is well known that Jesus told the apostles to suffer the children to come onto him, because why, they are perfect.  The line drawn in the timeline sand is the age of 8.  After the 8th birthday, the child may then choose to be baptized.  As infants, the RLDS do bless them during a service; no water.

/Just figured to share this view, I'm aware many views are out there on this.
 
2014-01-06 01:16:13 AM  

megarian: I think it's stupid. I'm not Christian.

But it's not harmful. You're putting a baby in water for a second, FFS. They'll live.


Yeah, it's the years of brainwashing afterwards that's the harmful bit.
 
2014-01-06 07:42:42 AM  
Christianity has been dumbed down ever since Catholicism was invented.  In the early days, people would actually get together and study the Bible.  Catholics are all about ritual and hierarchy, not independent thought.  Of course, many Evangelicals are becoming equally lazy these days and expect to be spoon-fed everything, as well.

For instance, if folks would actually read the Bible themselves, it would be pretty clear that baptism is merely a symbol of salvation.  There's nothing magical about getting splashed with (or dunked in) water.  In every single instance of baptism in the Bible, it's always applied to believing adults.  Much like a wedding ring, it's a public announcement of a choice that's already been made privately.  Hence, baptizing babies is nonsensical, because they're incapable of making that decision for themselves.

\ If you can't explain why you believe what you believe, you're doing it wrong.  Christianity isn't supposed to be a religion of brain-dead zombies, but that's what Catholicism has turned it into.
 
2014-01-06 07:54:37 AM  
So most of you are saying the Bishop might be right and that you like the cut of his Miter...
 
2014-01-06 08:40:09 AM  

PsiChick: thamike: megarian: thamike: How does one "dumb down" water boarding infants?

They get dipped in water.

You know, like a bath.

Yeah, that's what I tried to explain to my niece/goddaughter as she balefully eyed me, betrayed and brokenhearted, as the priest read the end of The Godfather screenplay.  It's a stupid f*cking practice.  I hated it, and so does everybody else who isn't in a spritz-my-forehead denomination.  And for what?  Bullsh*t.

Actually, if the priest is doing it right, it's not supposed to be any more physically dangerous than rinsing hair. The trauma usually comes because the dumbasses never warm up the water and do it in front of a church instead of with Mommy cooing at them.

/Seriously, you'd think they'd warm the water up, it's for  babies.


I'm sure there are many fine tuning tips to make this pleasant, but you guys need to understand that, to my mind, there is no way to fine tune something so arbitrarily absurd.

1. Hey, what's with the outfit?
2.  What are you yelling about?
3.  What the--Hey!  I was holding that kid. What are you-"
4. Is that a cauldron?  WTF?
5. Oh, sorry now I know where you're going with this.  For a second, I thought you people were psychopathic medieval nincompoops.  By all means carry on dunking the baby so it doesn't burn for eternity in a boiling roil of carcasses and flies.
 
2014-01-06 08:40:50 AM  

megarian: I think it's stupid. I'm not Christian.

But it's not harmful. You're putting a baby in water for a second, FFS. They'll live.


This is the internet.  It was made for hyperbole.
 
2014-01-06 09:32:32 AM  
I also heard that some witchdoctors accept using hair extensions rather than natural hair in their voodoo dolls. What is the world coming to?
 
2014-01-06 02:18:20 PM  

thamike: I'm sure there are many fine tuning tips to make this pleasant, but you guys need to understand that, to my mind, there is no way to fine tune something so arbitrarily absurd.

1. Hey, what's with the outfit?
2.  What are you yelling about?
3.  What the--Hey!  I was holding that kid. What are you-"
4. Is that a cauldron?  WTF?
5. Oh, sorry now I know where you're going with this.  For a second, I thought you people were psychopathic medieval nincompoops.  By all means carry on dunking the baby so it doesn't burn for eternity in a boiling roil of carcasses and flies.


Well, yes, but at the end of the day, whether or not you believe, the question is whether or not it's hurting anyone. If they're not, who the hell cares?

/Plus, babies and water are generally a good mix, believe it or not
//They just need Mommy holding them and nice  warm water
 
2014-01-06 02:51:35 PM  

Yamaneko2: simplicimus: buckler: Benevolent Misanthrope: Baptism is about accepting a god and all his teaching as revealed through the church, and rejecting the Devil and all his works.  Not saying that kind of defeats the purpose.

And how well-equipped is a baby to accept that choice?

I don't know how it works with Anglicans, but for Catholics, there are three more opportunities after Baptism to re-affirm your faith. Four if you get married or join the clergy. Five if you're awake during Last Rites.

For Episcopalians, as with Catholics, this opportunity comes every Easter.when we affirm our faith.  You may also call the Nicene Creed an affirmation.


Do Anglicans/ Episcopalians do Confirmation?  That's the other huge sacrament where you affirm your faith, and in most Catholic cultures you are in your teens by the time you get to it, so you can answer for yourself, before a bishop, who then does a similar sort of anointing except that instead of water he uses special blessed oil (chrism).
 
2014-01-06 08:04:41 PM  

DrunkWithImpotence: Yamaneko2: simplicimus: buckler: Benevolent Misanthrope: Baptism is about accepting a god and all his teaching as revealed through the church, and rejecting the Devil and all his works.  Not saying that kind of defeats the purpose.

And how well-equipped is a baby to accept that choice?

I don't know how it works with Anglicans, but for Catholics, there are three more opportunities after Baptism to re-affirm your faith. Four if you get married or join the clergy. Five if you're awake during Last Rites.

For Episcopalians, as with Catholics, this opportunity comes every Easter.when we affirm our faith.  You may also call the Nicene Creed an affirmation.

Do Anglicans/ Episcopalians do Confirmation?  That's the other huge sacrament where you affirm your faith, and in most Catholic cultures you are in your teens by the time you get to it, so you can answer for yourself, before a bishop, who then does a similar sort of anointing except that instead of water he uses special blessed oil (chrism).


Yes. It used to be required for communion. Now it's optional but encouraged.
 
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