Well, I'll say this: that's the first time I've heard left-wingers compared to Nazis.

really? Haven't been on fark too long, have you? EVERYONE eventually gets compared to Nazis. Bush is a Nazi, Clinton was a nazi...see that guy sitting over there? Him...yup, Nazi. My girlfriend's rabbit is a nazi rabbit.

Rabiddawg

and not for anything folks, but if you take the boys who wrote the ol' constitution years ago and put them into TODAYS circumstances, i think things would be a bit different. 1776...kinda a long time ago, things do change, i would hope at least.

No, I disagree. Our founding fathers were very wise. They were very educated men who worked and prayed to develope a more perfect governemtn of the people.

Human nature has not changed in 200 years.

Joe Horn, want to point me to a non-smoking bar? I've never seen one anywhere that it wasn't mandated by law.

The Patriot Act is so massive. Most Congressional Reps haven't even read it.

Most Congressional Reps are a lot like most Farkers, then.

Yes, indeed the Founding Fathers did know what they were talking about with respect to gun ownership. The second amendment to the constitution has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with hunting, etc. It has everything to do with not allowing the government seize personal property, ie guns, like they did during the Revolutionary War. They thought it was essential for the people to have the power to overthrow the government should they see fit. A government that is afraid of its people is a good government. You get my gist.

I hate Bush, and hope to see him out of office next January. Howver, I've got news for you. The Patriot Act wasn't written during the Bush Administration. Do you honestly believe a 1400 page document just appeared out of nowhere?

ElwoodCuse, I don't care what kind of bar you are looking for. Open your own non-smoking bar if you think its such a great idea.

DarthBrooks

But Atta wasn't terrorist when he learned to fly. See, you have to actually commit acts of terror to be a terrorist. Just like a person is just a gun owner, and not a murderer, until he/she shoots someone.

I think I'd rather get blown up by an asshat than live with all the provisions of the Patriot Act. I mean - its gotten silly - to the point where I start to admire Soviet Russia for behaving in a straight forward asshat manner that did not apologize for itself, nor make any claims about how this was for the common good.

That being said - remember everyone except 4 signed off on this. I think it came about as an act of absolute paranoia and shouldn't be blamed on anyone. But I do think it needs very badly to be reformed, and that those same people that signed the damn thing into law need to equally address it now.

Most Congressional Reps haven't even read the bills they're sponsoring. It would take a minor miracle for one of them to more than glance at the Patriot Act.

the_pgoat --
They should still be held liable, however. It's within their powers, and in fact could well be considered their responsibility, to not rubber-stamp legislation.
If in the private sector, somebody green-lighted a bad proposal without even reading it, would he be forgiven? Unless he's extremely well-connected or has previously been doing a superlative job in other ways, that seems unlikely to me.
I'm not absolving the President for backing this, but neither would I give any legislator a blank check for supporting things without bothering to look in depth at them or at least have well-chosen staff do so.

Gray_Calx
BTW : I hope all you people against the Patriot Act, are also against banning smoking in bars, and against the new handsfree cel phone regulation. Its all taking rights away... in your opinion.

i am against that kind of safety nazi crap

anyone ever do their own research about second hand smoke?
I did it's not good but it's certainly not what it's been made out to be

handsfree cel phone regs are great(sarcasm) now we need to have anyone who changes their radio station without pulling over first tied to trees and shot! they could have hit a truck full of children holding kittens for christ sake!

btw: i'm not gonna let any kid of mine wear a helmet while riding their bike. i guess social services should step in, oh great government please take care of me so i don't hurt myself

Nutzngum That's nobodies business but the Turks. Was thata purposefulThey Might be Giants reference?

"-crickets, trees rustling in the wind"

BBD,cohorts blustering unconvincingly.

Not too big a deal, but a good observation on the part of the judge. Just amend the law to differentiate between hostile and benign activities with regards to providing advice or assistance, and it should be okay.

In other news... Howard Dean wants national smart card ID. Now if you want big brother, there it is......

willywonka, don't forget my pet rat. He has declared all of the food I feed him unfit to live. Stupid nazi.

redcandy03:
you won't hear anything from them, they're in jail being held indefinitely. for no reason except the color of their skin and because their name is muhammed.

So you know them all personally? Theyre all just John Q Publics? Take off the tinfoil hat. The paranoia is becoming an issue. Please Seek help through your nearest mental health facility.

2004-01-26 03:26:40 PM Big_Bad_Dad

Oh here we go! Everyon who has had their right trampled on by the Pat Act raise your hand......

That's not the point. The point is that there was POTENTIAL (caps, bold, making it easy to see) for abuse.
I'm sure that all the paleocons would have cheered wildly had Clinton proposed and pushed through a PATRIOT Act after the 1993 al-Qaeda bombing of the WTC.

You may now continue with your predictable self-righteous whining about liberals and Democrats.

How has the Patriot Act made anyone safer? It is a waste of time. Time to repeal it and impeach Bush for not defending the Constitution.

caiteach

So what if it was probably written during the previous admistration. It was pushed when it was most likly to pass. That would not have been during the 90's. Focus on when it was PASSED.

Wow, what a day... First John Asshat alludes to 'evil' sciences (although, oddly, he didn't mention 'good nothink' or 'blissful ignorance') and now THIS happens... Maybe I can get some icing on my cake and have Wes Clark take NH by storm tomorrow...

Someone said:
The Patriot Act is so massive. Most Congressional Reps haven't even read it.

The Patriot Act mostly refers to other laws and chages definitions of these laws and words within them. It doesn't really read like (ie:) a person suspected of this...yada yada yada.." It's more like "Whereas Section A-4565 of the 1976 Hot Dog act now refers herein to Section 45 b7 of the Ketchup Act, where in 'Suspect" is now defined...blah blah blah..." Most people couldn't understand the farkin' thing and you need to have a copy of pretty much every law ever written with you as you read it.

Sorry about the hot dog refernces. i missed lunch.

"correction... Bush is a tax-CUT and spend liberal. He leaves out the tax part, and just sticks to spending. "

He is, defacto, TAXING my children and their children. Its easier that way because they can't vote.

Bush is the biggest Liberal this nation has seen since FDR. And the Conservatives love him.

Nothing like a "feel-good" conservative to destroy a nation.

caiteach


I hate Bush, and hope to see him out of office next January. Howver, I've got news for you. The Patriot Act wasn't written during the Bush Administration. Do you honestly believe a 1400 page document just appeared out of nowhere?

Do you think eight people work for the government? My wife used to work for the FCC, and they cranked out 2200-page regulation updates every month. Of course, they had a staff of several dozen cut-n-pasters on the job.

Stop believing the world is like "The West Wing" - real government doesn't work like that.

Chelsea Clinton ...

I'm not trying anything numbnuts, I agree with the judge's decision.

If you're saying banning smoking in bars is not taking a right away then you're a dumbass. Its like prohibition, you have no right to drink, its been around for so long I take it for granted, and therefore perceive it as a right I have lost.

Its cool tho, I live in a tabacco state... so I'm set.

This grossly named act past in haste
should be leveled, laid to waste
And then let calmer minds decide
How best to stem the terror's tide
But as it stands it stands as heinous
Treason's tract from Ashcroft's anus
Some would have us hem and haw
Accept that Fear is now the Law.

Imagine that you conservative lizards.

Big_bad_dad
Here's an article for you and it's from your favourite news source.
A Justice Department investigation into more than 1,000 recent claims of civil rights and civil liberties violations under the anti-terrorism USA Patriot Act (search) concluded that 34 were credible, according to a report released Monday

robertbrasco

waitaminute: It is funny that you praise your senator for doing something that was not popular but was right. I say that because that is what George Bush did when he went to war with Iraq. As far as the Patriot act goes, it doesn't bother me. The only people who should be mad about it are the people doing things they are not supposed to be doing. Like being a terrorist. Or helping terrorists.

Well, first, I disagree that invading Iraq was the right thing to do. (And note that when talking about my Senator, I said he did "the right thing by me". It may not have been right in your opinion, but enough people thought it was to give him his fifth consecutive seat in the Senate.) I think that invading Iraq was presumptuous, ill advised, counter-productive and off track in the overall "War on Terror".

Secondly, I find your attitude towards the Patriot Act immature, selfish and poorly thought out. The concept of "...people doing things they are not supposed to..." is not yours to make or approve. They will not ask your advice or consent. The Patriot Act is a system with few if any checks and balances, and allows for little oversite.

You mention that people shouldn't be terrorists or support terrorists. But the provisions of the Patriot Act leave too much room for interpretation. If my neighbor borrows some laundry supplies, there is no reason to suspect that he will use it to make Napalm and use it on the Presidential motorcade. But if he does, I have supported a terrorist and could be prosecuted under the Patriot Act. If the owner of the restaurant where I bought lunch today suicide bombs a school bus tomorrow, I supported his terrorism monetarily by buying Kung Pow chicken from him. Without me, he wouldn't have been able to buy explosives. This is allowed as "supporting terrorism" as the act is now worded.

That is why the patriot act is dangerous: not for what it says, but it doesn't say. Not for what it disallows, but what it allows in it's place.

Most Congressional Reps haven't even read the bills they're sponsoring. It would take a minor miracle for one of them to more than glance at the Patriot Act.

I completely agree - and let this be a warning to everyone to FIRE the asshats that do this on a regular basis - especially with something like THIS.

dividedsky

That was the best part of Bush's state of the union... "Key parts of the Patriot Act are set to expire next year "


Haha, did anyone else find it funny that as soon as he finished that sentence, all of the Liberals and most of the Democrats stood up and clapped?

The Patriot Act wasn't written during the Bush Administration. Do you honestly believe a 1400 page document just appeared out of nowhere?

Ashcroft
Armitage
Cheney
Perle
Wolfowitz

...and a few others. It was started before Bush came to power, but it was certainly written by current members of the administration.

...ever seen how DC works? 1400 pages is nothing.

Anybody have a list or summary of how the Patriot Act has stood up (or will stand up) in court?

There's so much anger and bitterness over the law, but I want to know how the courts see it. I mean, if the Supreme Court says it's constitutional by a 9-0 margin, then I know it's probably an ok law.

ChairmanKaga

no arguement that they weren't wise. personally, my hat's off to them, because they did have the foresight to know that gov't is a living thing. it needs to grow and change with the times. we have much more rights now than at any point in the us history. i get the whole privacy issue, but if they is a potential for things to be stopped, i say go get 'em. the reason you don't hear about a lot of the things stopped is because we can't go out and just tell people how exactly we are getting people (yes, we are btw) or when either... nat'l security IS at risk here. its a touchy subject, but something had to change after the 11th. perosnally, i would have been happy if something would have been done after '93, but thats a whole 'nother issue

scooby111 I think the founding forefathers had absolutely no interest in empowering the average farkers with enough weaponry to overthrow the government. They were elitist men, our founders. They were contemptuous of the people's ability to do much--like vote, for example--much less govern themselves. I believe the 2nd amendment has more to do with personal self defense and hunting.

re: No, I don't think Madison, Jefferson & co. envisioned protection of traitors. They did however try to protect everyone, and they understood that in order to do that, you have to protect some of the baddies as well. That's one of the the prices of freedom: in order to protect everyone's rights, you have to protect EVERYONE'S rights. Simple, I know. Also difficult to orchestrate, because no one wants to see the baddies protected, and it's so easy to point out when it happens, and it's easy to incite peoples' anger about that..but the fact that a bad guy abused the common right doesn't mean that we all have to forfeit that right. It means we have to legislate, investigate, and prosecute more effectively.

/rant off.


ChairmanKaga
see above. The government ain't gonna be stopped if it ever decides to kill us..no matter how many M-16s we have. They knew that then as well as they know it now. The very idea of a democratic government turning on the people at large is ludicrous, anyway. They might turn against a certain group..the fags, the towel heads, the japs. Let them start shooting them however, and you'd quickly have no army..they'd desert. Well, I hope they would. Even if they didn't...what are the people gonna do? Shoot down bombs with AK-47s?

Kill 3000 people and scream "I HAVE RIGHTS DAMNIT!"

ok... it is a little vague.. but ya know, if they strike down the Patriot Act... the dems will never get anything through congress cause itll all be piggy-backed by Patriot Act amendments...

the only people that fear the Patriot Act are people that have something to hide.

Frankly, I would be disappointed if a political discussion on Fark did NOT turn into a flamewar.

Patriot Act?!

What the hell is patriotic about it?!

Of all the parts in the Patriot act that folks have biatched about, this is not one of them...

A federal judge has declared unconstitutional a portion of the USA Patriot Act that bars giving expert advice or assistance to groups designated foreign terrorist organizations.

So I guess it's now OK to send your support-- and dollars-- to Al-Qaida.

Can we get a CA Federal Judge tag?

Lars:
..."Floods, fire, frost or frippery?!?"

unexplained bacon

"handsfree cel phone regs are great(sarcasm) now we need to have anyone who changes their radio station without pulling over first tied to trees and shot! they could have hit a truck full of children holding kittens for christ sake!"

I don't know how you stand politically, and I don't really care, because I couldn't have put it better myself. Thank you.

Thank God, now they need to take out that part that lets prisoners be held for up to six months without pressing charges...

Or maybe I just heard that somewhere.

I hope I just heard that somewhere, because a bill like that does not need to exist inside the United States of America.