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(The New York Times)   House Speaker John Boehner is skeptical of a comprehensive immigration reform, suggests a more incomprehensible one   (nytimes.com) divider line 112
    More: Unlikely, Boehner, immigration reform, The Arizona Republic  
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1131 clicks; posted to Politics » on 02 Jan 2014 at 4:02 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-02 03:37:02 PM  
There was not a single word in that entire article about actual policy substance.
 
2014-01-02 03:40:16 PM  

DamnYankees: There was not a single word in that entire article about actual policy substance.


I'm sure it's exactly the same concept as their alternative to Obamacare
 
2014-01-02 03:43:55 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: DamnYankees: There was not a single word in that entire article about actual policy substance.

I'm sure it's exactly the same concept as their alternative to Obamacare


My comment was intended more as a shot at the NYT, actually.
 
2014-01-02 03:49:46 PM  
House Speaker John Boehner is skeptical of immigration reform, halfway through his 3rd scotch.

Ftfy
Nttawwt
 
2014-01-02 03:50:40 PM  

DamnYankees: MaudlinMutantMollusk: DamnYankees: There was not a single word in that entire article about actual policy substance.

I'm sure it's exactly the same concept as their alternative to Obamacare

My comment was intended more as a shot at the NYT, actually.


I thought they'd reported all Boehner's aides would tell them

/sorry
 
2014-01-02 03:51:59 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: I thought they'd reported all Boehner's aides would tell them

/sorry


Maybe. But then the article should at least say something like "the reform passed by the Senate includes policies X, Y and Z. When asked which policies they support and which they oppose, Speaker Boehner did not comment."
 
2014-01-02 03:53:54 PM  
I really hope Boehner sticks with his apparent New Year's resolution of "Fark the Tea Party, they'll be haters no matter what." It's the first promising sign that the House can be even remotely competent in a long time.
 
2014-01-02 03:54:28 PM  
increase the number of visas for high-tech workers

Fark that.  Cancel the H1-B program altogether and offer citizenship to anyone earning an advanced degree.

H1-B visas are used to drive down American wages, and perform no other useful function.
 
2014-01-02 03:57:27 PM  

nmrsnr: I really hope Boehner sticks with his apparent New Year's resolution of "Fark the Tea Party, they'll be haters no matter what." It's the first promising sign that the House can be even remotely competent in a long time.


Maybe Boehner can spring back.
 
2014-01-02 03:58:19 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: increase the number of visas for high-tech workers

Fark that.  Cancel the H1-B program altogether and offer citizenship to anyone earning an advanced degree.

H1-B visas are used to drive down American wages, and perform no other useful function.


So if you have an advanced degree in China, your only options should be to not work in America, or become a citizen? No in between?
 
2014-01-02 04:07:10 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: increase the number of visas for high-tech workers

Fark that.  Cancel the H1-B program altogether and offer citizenship to anyone earning an advanced degree.

H1-B visas are used to drive down American wages, and perform no other useful function.


THIS!
 
2014-01-02 04:07:16 PM  

nmrsnr: I really hope Boehner sticks with his apparent New Year's resolution of "Fark the Tea Party, they'll be haters no matter what." It's the first promising sign that the House can be even remotely competent in a long time.


He was raging when he said that.
 
2014-01-02 04:08:50 PM  

DamnYankees: Marcus Aurelius: increase the number of visas for high-tech workers

Fark that.  Cancel the H1-B program altogether and offer citizenship to anyone earning an advanced degree.

H1-B visas are used to drive down American wages, and perform no other useful function.

So if you have an advanced degree in China, your only options should be to not work in America, or become a citizen? No in between?


We have tons, of high tech people in the US who can't get jobs and their jobs are getting shipped overseas every day. Their isn't a shortage at all. It's these companies don't want to pay the wages to get US employes.
 
2014-01-02 04:09:54 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: increase the number of visas for high-tech workers

Fark that.  Cancel the H1-B program altogether and offer citizenship to anyone earning an advanced degree.

H1-B visas are used to drive down American wages, and perform no other useful function.


but the wages paid are figured on some sort of U.S. federal wage chart!
and correct me if i am wrong (please) those immigrant workers are taxed but don't enjoy the benefits of taxation (infrastructure aside).
 
2014-01-02 04:10:02 PM  

Corvus: We have tons, of high tech people in the US who can't get jobs and their jobs are getting shipped overseas every day. Their isn't a shortage at all. It's these companies don't want to pay the wages to get US employes.


I don't want to get into the whole idea of protectionism, but suffice is to say I don't support it as a principle, so I find this argument lacking.
 
2014-01-02 04:10:08 PM  

DamnYankees: Marcus Aurelius: increase the number of visas for high-tech workers

Fark that.  Cancel the H1-B program altogether and offer citizenship to anyone earning an advanced degree.

H1-B visas are used to drive down American wages, and perform no other useful function.

So if you have an advanced degree in China, your only options should be to not work in America, or become a citizen? No in between?


Can we can come up with an in between that doesn't put downward pressure on wages for American advanced degree holders?
 
2014-01-02 04:12:35 PM  

qorkfiend: Can we can come up with an in between that doesn't put downward pressure on wages for American advanced degree holders?


Not sure how. You either expand the labor pool or you don't.
 
2014-01-02 04:13:06 PM  
This is Boehner's way of saying "Let's hold off until after the mid terms when we can claim credit for this...
 
2014-01-02 04:13:56 PM  

shanrick: nmrsnr: I really hope Boehner sticks with his apparent New Year's resolution of "Fark the Tea Party, they'll be haters no matter what." It's the first promising sign that the House can be even remotely competent in a long time.

Maybe Boehner can spring back.


Boehner has clearly hardened in response to the rock-hard rhetoric of the Tea Party. They are both clearly frot with tension, and I wouldn't be surprised if they're soon going openly head to head.
 
2014-01-02 04:13:57 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: increase the number of visas for high-tech workers

Fark that.  Cancel the H1-B program altogether and offer citizenship to anyone earning an advanced degree.

H1-B visas are used to drive down American wages, and perform no other useful function.


As far as I can tell in my own anecdotal experience, this is exactly correct.  It is not uncommon to lay off US citizens in order to bring in foreign contractors because of the price difference.
 
2014-01-02 04:14:19 PM  

DamnYankees: qorkfiend: Can we can come up with an in between that doesn't put downward pressure on wages for American advanced degree holders?

Not sure how. You either expand the labor pool or you don't.


Why should we expand the labor pool when we don't need to?
 
2014-01-02 04:15:18 PM  

qorkfiend: DamnYankees: Marcus Aurelius: increase the number of visas for high-tech workers

Fark that.  Cancel the H1-B program altogether and offer citizenship to anyone earning an advanced degree.

H1-B visas are used to drive down American wages, and perform no other useful function.

So if you have an advanced degree in China, your only options should be to not work in America, or become a citizen? No in between?

Can we can come up with an in between that doesn't put downward pressure on wages for American advanced degree holders?


Yes, give out more work visas that aren't tied to a specific employer. H1-Bs make workers beholden to their sponsor companies. If a worker could just quit and go to another employer, there wouldn't be downward wage pressure.
 
2014-01-02 04:15:37 PM  

qorkfiend: DamnYankees: qorkfiend: Can we can come up with an in between that doesn't put downward pressure on wages for American advanced degree holders?

Not sure how. You either expand the labor pool or you don't.

Why should we expand the labor pool when we don't need to?


We don't 'need' to do a lot of things. I happen to think that bringing smart, educated people to work in this country is a pretty good idea.
 
2014-01-02 04:15:46 PM  
I'm skeptical that Boehner has the ability to lead.
 
2014-01-02 04:16:14 PM  

Wake Up Sheeple: Yes, give out more work visas that aren't tied to a specific employer. H1-Bs make workers beholden to their sponsor companies. If a worker could just quit and go to another employer, there wouldn't be downward wage pressure.


This is true, and should be done.
 
2014-01-02 04:16:58 PM  

Wake Up Sheeple: qorkfiend: DamnYankees: Marcus Aurelius: increase the number of visas for high-tech workers

Fark that.  Cancel the H1-B program altogether and offer citizenship to anyone earning an advanced degree.

H1-B visas are used to drive down American wages, and perform no other useful function.

So if you have an advanced degree in China, your only options should be to not work in America, or become a citizen? No in between?

Can we can come up with an in between that doesn't put downward pressure on wages for American advanced degree holders?

Yes, give out more work visas that aren't tied to a specific employer. H1-Bs make workers beholden to their sponsor companies. If a worker could just quit and go to another employer, there wouldn't be downward wage pressure.


You don't think that would make the problem worse by flooding the labor market?
 
2014-01-02 04:17:19 PM  

DamnYankees: Marcus Aurelius: increase the number of visas for high-tech workers

Fark that.  Cancel the H1-B program altogether and offer citizenship to anyone earning an advanced degree.

H1-B visas are used to drive down American wages, and perform no other useful function.

So if you have an advanced degree in China, your only options should be to not work in America, or become a citizen? No in between?


The problem with the H1-B Visa is that it requires you to have a job to stay in the country.

This gives companies extra leverage over H1-B Visa holders that they *do not have* over american workers. "Do what I want for this low pay, or else I'll fire you and since other people will know you got fired for wanting more wages, no one else in the tech areas will hire you, either."

It creates an artificial depression on wages, and allows companies to get away with WAY more crap than they could with a citizen, because if the worker complains, they can be fired and, since they won't be able to find another job, deported. It is the exact opposite of a free market.

Either they're valuable enough to become a citizen, or they're not. Perhaps there's another way to do it, but at the moment, the H1-B visa creates an artificial push-down on american wages in tech sectors.
 
2014-01-02 04:17:28 PM  

DamnYankees: qorkfiend: DamnYankees: qorkfiend: Can we can come up with an in between that doesn't put downward pressure on wages for American advanced degree holders?

Not sure how. You either expand the labor pool or you don't.

Why should we expand the labor pool when we don't need to?

We don't 'need' to do a lot of things. I happen to think that bringing smart, educated people to work in this country is a pretty good idea.


instead of providing jobs to smart educated people already in this country?
 
2014-01-02 04:17:34 PM  

DamnYankees: qorkfiend: DamnYankees: qorkfiend: Can we can come up with an in between that doesn't put downward pressure on wages for American advanced degree holders?

Not sure how. You either expand the labor pool or you don't.

Why should we expand the labor pool when we don't need to?

We don't 'need' to do a lot of things. I happen to think that bringing smart, educated people to work in this country is a pretty good idea.


It's a good idea if that is the core goal.

But experience shows that there's plenty of folks capable of doing the work in the US.  The problem is that they demand salaries that are competitive with other Americans, not competitive with other Indian / Chinese / whatever nationals.
 
2014-01-02 04:18:25 PM  
The DhimmyCraps are going to use immigration reform and the minimum wage to continue to exploit the rift in the GOP.
 
2014-01-02 04:19:04 PM  

DamnYankees: qorkfiend: Can we can come up with an in between that doesn't put downward pressure on wages for American advanced degree holders?

Not sure how. You either expand the labor pool or you don't.


Expand the labor pool at a time of highish unemployment?  I like the sound of that.
 
2014-01-02 04:19:23 PM  

qorkfiend: Wake Up Sheeple: qorkfiend: DamnYankees: Marcus Aurelius: increase the number of visas for high-tech workers

Fark that.  Cancel the H1-B program altogether and offer citizenship to anyone earning an advanced degree.

H1-B visas are used to drive down American wages, and perform no other useful function.

So if you have an advanced degree in China, your only options should be to not work in America, or become a citizen? No in between?

Can we can come up with an in between that doesn't put downward pressure on wages for American advanced degree holders?

Yes, give out more work visas that aren't tied to a specific employer. H1-Bs make workers beholden to their sponsor companies. If a worker could just quit and go to another employer, there wouldn't be downward wage pressure.

You don't think that would make the problem worse by flooding the labor market?


You wanted a middle ground. Protectionism just leads to an illegal labor market. Why not just deal with it legally and make conditions better?
 
2014-01-02 04:21:00 PM  

Felgraf: Either they're valuable enough to become a citizen, or they're not. Perhaps there's another way to do it, but at the moment, the H1-B visa creates an artificial push-down on american wages in tech sectors.


I agree with this. I support taking away the active work requirement.

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: But experience shows that there's plenty of folks capable of doing the work in the US.  The problem is that they demand salaries that are competitive with other Americans, not competitive with other Indian / Chinese / whatever nationals.


This just doesn't reflect reality to me. Take a look at this chart by education level. There's no unemployment problem among the highly educated.

www.bls.gov
 
2014-01-02 04:21:16 PM  

DamnYankees: But then the article should at least say something like "the reform passed by the Senate includes policies X, Y and Z. When asked which policies they support and which they oppose, Speaker Boehner did not comment."



This may be more to your liking.
 
2014-01-02 04:21:58 PM  

Saiga410: Expand the labor pool at a time of highish unemployment?  I like the sound of that.


I have no problem doing that, actually. If employment sucks, people won't immigrate. But let it be their choice.

I don't have a very strong view about this particular issue though, so I'm open to evidence that this is a bad idea.
 
2014-01-02 04:22:14 PM  

DamnYankees: qorkfiend: DamnYankees: qorkfiend: Can we can come up with an in between that doesn't put downward pressure on wages for American advanced degree holders?

Not sure how. You either expand the labor pool or you don't.

Why should we expand the labor pool when we don't need to?

We don't 'need' to do a lot of things. I happen to think that bringing smart, educated people to work in this country is a pretty good idea.


Sure, but right now we're not suffering from a severe shortage of smart, educated people ready to work in this country, and it's not like the US doesn't have a lot of things besides the H1-B program to attract smart, educated people from foreign countries. There are plenty of Americans trained and looking for work in these fields. The only reason for a business to hire via the H1-B program is because it's cheaper than hiring an American.
 
2014-01-02 04:23:19 PM  

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: DamnYankees: qorkfiend: DamnYankees: qorkfiend: Can we can come up with an in between that doesn't put downward pressure on wages for American advanced degree holders?

Not sure how. You either expand the labor pool or you don't.

Why should we expand the labor pool when we don't need to?

We don't 'need' to do a lot of things. I happen to think that bringing smart, educated people to work in this country is a pretty good idea.

It's a good idea if that is the core goal.

But experience shows that there's plenty of folks capable of doing the work in the US.  The problem is that they demand salaries that are competitive with other Americans, not competitive with other Indian / Chinese / whatever nationals.


That sound exactly like fruit/vegetable migrant workers actualy.
 
2014-01-02 04:23:52 PM  

Isitoveryet: Marcus Aurelius: increase the number of visas for high-tech workers

Fark that.  Cancel the H1-B program altogether and offer citizenship to anyone earning an advanced degree.

H1-B visas are used to drive down American wages, and perform no other useful function.

but the wages paid are figured on some sort of U.S. federal wage chart!
and correct me if i am wrong (please) those immigrant workers are taxed but don't enjoy the benefits of taxation (infrastructure aside).


They are also paid, on average, 10 percent less than an equivalent American.

If H1-B's are so damn valuable, fine.  Pay them more than an equivalent American.  I'd be OK with the program if that was the case.

It isn't.
 
2014-01-02 04:23:53 PM  

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Marcus Aurelius: increase the number of visas for high-tech workers

Fark that.  Cancel the H1-B program altogether and offer citizenship to anyone earning an advanced degree.

H1-B visas are used to drive down American wages, and perform no other useful function.

As far as I can tell in my own anecdotal experience, this is exactly correct.  It is not uncommon to lay off US citizens in order to bring in foreign contractors because of the price difference.


I was replaced by three of them once.  Yes three.  One could do the math, one could write the code, and another one was required to speak English.
 
2014-01-02 04:24:02 PM  

qorkfiend: Sure, but right now we're not suffering from a severe shortage of smart, educated people ready to work in this country


We kind of are. You can see the chart I posted above - the unemployment rate for people with graduate degrees is, like, 3%. That's really low.
 
2014-01-02 04:24:33 PM  

DamnYankees: Marcus Aurelius: increase the number of visas for high-tech workers

Fark that.  Cancel the H1-B program altogether and offer citizenship to anyone earning an advanced degree.

H1-B visas are used to drive down American wages, and perform no other useful function.

So if you have an advanced degree in China, your only options should be to not work in America, or become a citizen? No in between?


Fark the Chinese.  They're already driving down our wages enough already.
 
2014-01-02 04:26:23 PM  

DamnYankees: qorkfiend: Sure, but right now we're not suffering from a severe shortage of smart, educated people ready to work in this country

We kind of are. You can see the chart I posted above - the unemployment rate for people with graduate degrees is, like, 3%. That's really low.


That doesn't really break it down by fields, though. And they sure as shiat aren't bringing over History PhD's on an H1-B.
 
2014-01-02 04:26:25 PM  
From TFA:  Representative Paul D. Ryan of Wisconsin, the chief House negotiator on the budget compromise, is expected to play a large, if behind-the-scenes, role.

Well, we're boned.
 
2014-01-02 04:27:57 PM  

Felgraf: That doesn't really break it down by fields, though. And they sure as shiat aren't bringing over History PhD's on an H1-B.


Maybe, but in the absence of contradictory evidence, I go with the data I have.
 
2014-01-02 04:29:06 PM  

DamnYankees: qorkfiend: Sure, but right now we're not suffering from a severe shortage of smart, educated people ready to work in this country

We kind of are. You can see the chart I posted above - the unemployment rate for people with graduate degrees is, like, 3%. That's really low.

 
2014-01-02 04:36:07 PM  

DamnYankees: qorkfiend: Sure, but right now we're not suffering from a severe shortage of smart, educated people ready to work in this country

We kind of are. You can see the chart I posted above - the unemployment rate for people with graduate degrees is, like, 3%. That's really low.


But as someone in the tech fields, I want as much of a negotiating footing against my employer over wages and benefits that I can muster.  H1Bs decrease that no matter what the unemployment rate for that sector is so therefor they must not be expanded at the least, preferably decreased.
 
2014-01-02 04:36:32 PM  
Marcus Aurelius:

Fark the Chinese U.S. companies that go overseas for cheap labor.  They're already driving down our wages enough already.

fix that for everyone!
 
2014-01-02 04:39:11 PM  
The Republicans are now between a rock and a hard place. In order to avoid being primaried by the Tea Party, they have to demonstrate their conservative bona fides. On the other hand, in order to get elected, they have to appeal the Independents, which is to say, political moderates, so they will have to actually accomplish something legislatively in the next few months, or at least be able to pretend they did. Similarly, they have to be ready to push their way to the front of the anti-ACA bandwagon if things go wrong while simultaneously being poised to claim they supported something like Romneycare all along should the program be running smoothly at election time. It is an extremely delicate balancing act that not all will be able to carry off, especially if they tend to cry easily and drink to excess. A certain percentage of them are assured re-election (assuming they can get through the primary process) due to gerrymandering and those are the ones will see go full bore Tea Party. The others will have to pursue a more nuanced approach, since the last thing they want to do is actually make the government work like it's supposed to, as that would benefit the Democrats. I know it sucks to have to work for the good of the country as a whole rather than just your own party and the select group of plutocrats it fellates, but Republicans like Boehner are going to have to do something like that if they hope to hold on to the House or take the Senate.
 
2014-01-02 04:41:02 PM  

DamnYankees: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: But experience shows that there's plenty of folks capable of doing the work in the US. The problem is that they demand salaries that are competitive with other Americans, not competitive with other Indian / Chinese / whatever nationals.

This just doesn't reflect reality to me. Take a look at this chart by education level. There's no unemployment problem among the highly educated.

[www.bls.gov image 720x385]


I didn't say that the folks laid off wouldn't be able to (necessarily) get new jobs, simply that I've seen quite a few times companies clear out their American workers and bring in foreign contractors on the IT side.  None of those situations had a shortage of American workers to fill empty positions, they simply figured out which Americans they didn't want to pay anymore, and brought in foreign contractors.  Now, if those workers were overpaid by industry standards, the company could easily have replaced them with more junior new hires or even American contractors, but they didn't.  Why?  Because the price differential is so great that they can get two foreign contractors for the price of one (even easier if they actually contract with one of the large outsourcing companies, then they don't even have to personally manage the H1-B process on a per-employee basis; they leave the heavy lifting to the outsourcing organization).
 
2014-01-02 04:43:31 PM  

Saiga410: But as someone in the tech fields, I want as much of a negotiating footing against my employer over wages and benefits that I can muster.  H1Bs decrease that no matter what the unemployment rate for that sector is so therefor they must not be expanded at the least, preferably decreased.


Well sure. We all want everything we can get. I understand that. But its a balancing of interests.
 
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