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(Pro Football Talk)   Belichick: "Kickers are stupid, we should get rid of them"   (profootballtalk.nbcsports.com) divider line 134
    More: Hero, Bill Belichick, play action pass, field goal kick, XFL, touchback, placekickers, Rob Gronkowski, kickers  
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3678 clicks; posted to Sports » on 02 Jan 2014 at 1:42 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



134 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-01-02 04:12:00 PM  

Treygreen13: netweavr: How about:
 * The player must put the ball through the uprights during the course of the TD play for the extra point.

Well isn't the play over immediately when you are standing in the end zone with the ball or gone all the way to the ground with the catch? If you threw it through the goal posts before you scored the TD it's not a TD.


That would have to be amended along with "forward passing" rules (I'm randomly speculating). If you're downed in the end-zone, you only get 6. If you can get the ball through prior to being tackled, then you get the extra point. If you throw the ball threw prior to crossing the plane, then it's a touch-back and you're cut from the team.
 
2014-01-02 04:13:27 PM  

netweavr: How about:
 * The player must put the ball through the uprights during the course of the TD play for the extra point.


* The player must put the ball through the uprights during the course of the TD play for the extra point. If the ball misses and remains inside the endzone it is a fumble and if recovered by the defending team, no points are scored and a Touchback is awarded.

Let's do this.
 
2014-01-02 04:15:28 PM  
i22.photobucket.com
 
2014-01-02 04:17:11 PM  

netweavr: That would have to be amended along with "forward passing" rules (I'm randomly speculating). If you're downed in the end-zone, you only get 6. If you can get the ball through prior to being tackled, then you get the extra point. If you throw the ball threw prior to crossing the plane, then it's a touch-back and you're cut from the team.


Not cut, catapulted.
 
2014-01-02 04:17:49 PM  

jack_o_the_hills: Treygreen13: GregoryD: and now you know

Not sure the guys who come to every thread and brag about soccer really care about word etymology.

Yes, because bragging about soccer is EXACTLY what I was doing there.  Care to dazzle us with any other brilliant bits of enlightened observation from your endless pool of knowledge?

 Don't get your vagoo all sanded there Football Defender™.. I don't care for either game.


Don't know the origin, don't like the game, don't like the other game with the same name, just wanted to come dump in the thread, and you're testy about it?

legacy-cdn.smosh.com
 
2014-01-02 04:41:06 PM  

wheatpennyandaglock: 40 yards in = 3
40 -50 = 4
50 - 60= 5
60 plus = 6


now we are getting into fantasy football-type scoring with this.

I've always liked the idea of a missed XP being -5 points.  It doesn't happen often, but when it does happen, it will hurt like a biatch.  The detroit/ philly game in the snow was fun to watch because they couldn't kick at all.
 
2014-01-02 04:44:18 PM  
Make the PAT like rugby so the kicker has to kick from severe angles sometimes. While we're at it, make the players have to actually touch the ball down in the end zone. I'm sick of the players holding the ball out with their arms while their body is still out of the end zone.
 
2014-01-02 04:46:44 PM  

SlothB77: wheatpennyandaglock: 40 yards in = 3
40 -50 = 4
50 - 60= 5
60 plus = 6

now we are getting into fantasy football-type scoring with this.

I've always liked the idea of a missed XP being -5 points.  It doesn't happen often, but when it does happen, it will hurt like a biatch.  The detroit/ philly game in the snow was fun to watch because they couldn't kick at all.


Looks like this year, only 1 XP was legitimately shanked - the rest were blocked. The Vikings, of course, were the team to miss one.

I've mentioned this before, but if you ever get a chance, try to kick an XP. It's astonishingly easy (at least when nobody is trying to block it). One of my teachers in high school was a kicker in college and we'd go out to the field on free days and kick from all over the field. As long as you're even slightly athletic extra points are basically automatic. You've got to really miss the ball to not put one through.

Now, any further out and you see how the real kickers are really good. I couldn't hit a 40 yarder to save my life.
 
2014-01-02 04:58:28 PM  

redmid17: Dr Dreidel: netweavr: ilikeracecars: As Peter King once wrote, there is nothing stopping you from going for two every time. He also says there are four downs, and no one is "forcing" you to punt on 4th down. He makes some suspicious statistical claims, but I would love to see Belicheck try it.

2007 Patriots went for it on 4th nearly every time...

Gregg Easterbrook HATES punting, and statistically (says he), going for every 4th down is a good move. I think there might be some obvious things, like only on 4th and less than 5, or only beyond your own 30 or something, but it'd be amazing if teams just stopped fielding full-time punters.

What about moving a PAT to the 15 or 20, but keeping 2-point tries on the 5?

Easterbrook and a few other stats guys I've read basically say the Expected Points (?) or whatever metric they were using tips in favor of going for it on 4th down every time it matched your criteria (4th and 5 or less, beyond your 40). They were using expected yards per point or something to gauge the improved field position. Basically any time you're at midfield at punt, you're only going to gain 20 yards. At that point it's more efficient to throw a deep pass near the endzone. Good chance you'll pin the opponent deep from an INT AND have a chance at scoring.


Yeah, I think I got Easterbrook and King mixed up for some reason. Definitely meant Easterbrook.
 
2014-01-02 04:58:44 PM  

Treygreen13: SlothB77: wheatpennyandaglock: 40 yards in = 3
40 -50 = 4
50 - 60= 5
60 plus = 6

now we are getting into fantasy football-type scoring with this.

I've always liked the idea of a missed XP being -5 points.  It doesn't happen often, but when it does happen, it will hurt like a biatch.  The detroit/ philly game in the snow was fun to watch because they couldn't kick at all.

Looks like this year, only 1 XP was legitimately shanked - the rest were blocked. The Vikings, of course, were the team to miss one.

I've mentioned this before, but if you ever get a chance, try to kick an XP. It's astonishingly easy (at least when nobody is trying to block it). One of my teachers in high school was a kicker in college and we'd go out to the field on free days and kick from all over the field. As long as you're even slightly athletic extra points are basically automatic. You've got to really miss the ball to not put one through.

Now, any further out and you see how the real kickers are really good. I couldn't hit a 40 yarder to save my life.


My brother and I played soccer. I picked it up reliably in a few hours. I don't even think anyone needed to teach my brother.

CSB: When the freshman football were deprived of their kicker on a friday because we had an away tournament that weekend, the kicker spent a practice or two with a few guys and had them almost automatic from inside 25 yards. The freshman team then failed to score any points, thus negating the practice and possibly Murphy's law.
 
2014-01-02 05:36:29 PM  

Treygreen13: It's astonishingly easy (at least when nobody is trying to block it).


Just about as easy as running for a TD when nobody's trying to tackle you.

/Also, I wanted to point out that Romo was holding on a FG attempt (though a really short one), not a PAT, so the earlier comment by the other person was even dumber than you'd given credit for
 
2014-01-02 05:40:38 PM  

IAmRight: Treygreen13: It's astonishingly easy (at least when nobody is trying to block it).

Just about as easy as running for a TD when nobody's trying to tackle you.

/Also, I wanted to point out that Romo was holding on a FG attempt (though a really short one), not a PAT, so the earlier comment by the other person was even dumber than you'd given credit for


Well anyone on the planet who isn't handicapped in some way can run in a straight line. But approaching a target being held by someone and kicking it as hard as you can takes a *little* coordination.
 
2014-01-02 05:40:42 PM  

Nadie_AZ: Also, he should check himself. He has 3 rings because of a very good clutch kicker.


You do realize, I'm sure, that the "clutch kicking" you're talking about was hitting field goals and those are NOT was the article was about, yes?

Personally, I like the idea of "whoever scores the touchdown has to make the kick" though the reality of that would be no different from eliminating the extra-point kick entirely since pretty much everyone would simply and automatically go for two.
 
2014-01-02 05:41:39 PM  
EXTRA POINT, Subby! NOT Kickers! Belichick knows he wouldn't have a single Super Bowl ring without Adam Vinatieri! >:-(
 
2014-01-02 05:45:25 PM  

Pardon Me Sultan: Nadie_AZ: Also, he should check himself. He has 3 rings because of a very good clutch kicker.

You do realize, I'm sure, that the "clutch kicking" you're talking about was hitting field goals and those are NOT was the article was about, yes?

Personally, I like the idea of "whoever scores the touchdown has to make the kick" though the reality of that would be no different from eliminating the extra-point kick entirely since pretty much everyone would simply and automatically go for two.


I dunno... there are some notable non-kickers who have kicked extra points.
www.obsessedwithsports.com
static.nfl.com
i.cdn.turner.com
Although Suh did miss.
 
2014-01-02 05:48:05 PM  

Treygreen13: Well anyone on the planet who isn't handicapped in some way can run in a straight line. But approaching a target being held by someone and kicking it as hard as you can takes a *little* coordination.


All I'm saying is that the "when nobody is trying to block it" is a HUGE part of the process, as are the snap and hold. Saying it's super easy when there's no defense or rush to get the kick off is as silly as acting as though running backs don't do anything of significance because that's super easy if there's no defense; as is completing a pass.

/my only experience trying to kick is kicking on Arena uprights. I made the first one, then botched like six in a row (the bar is higher and the uprights are half the width). It's not really "easy" to do ANYTHING with 100% accuracy, to be honest
//it's kinda silly for everyone to always go with "dammit kickers, you guys are putting in a hell of a lot of work to be consistently good...Congrats! Now we're going to eliminate part of your job (and therefore reduce your pay in all likelihood)."
 
2014-01-02 05:50:08 PM  
Subby can't read and neither can anyone who brought up Vinatieri
 
2014-01-02 06:02:08 PM  

IAmRight: All I'm saying is that the "when nobody is trying to block it" is a HUGE part of the process, as are the snap and hold. Saying it's super easy when there's no defense or rush to get the kick off is as silly as acting as though running backs don't do anything of significance because that's super easy if there's no defense; as is completing a pass.


I didn't mean to insult the ability of kickers - just to point out how easy it is to make a ball go that distance into a target that wide. The kicker has no control over the holder or line so they just have to kick it high enough that nobody can swat it down, which is easy at that distance.

Which is why there were 1,338 touchdowns this year (the vast majority of which were followed by XP attempts instead of conversion attempts) and only one extra point was missed. If there was so much stress and danger of the XP getting blocked more than 4 out of the 1000-something XPs would be blocked too.

Anyway, I don't think the XP needs to be changed.

IAmRight: /my only experience trying to kick is kicking on Arena uprights.


Well damn, no wonder! Those are tiny. I was all over the place when I did it on regular NFL-size uprights.
 
2014-01-02 06:48:18 PM  

Treygreen13: Which is why there were 1,338 touchdowns this year (the vast majority of which were followed by XP attempts instead of conversion attempts) and only one extra point was missed. If there was so much stress and danger of the XP getting blocked more than 4 out of the 1000-something XPs would be blocked too.


Yeah, though you have to consider that not many of them are actually contested with all that much effort. I guess I'm fine with getting rid of them in theory; I just don't like the implications of, like I said, "well, you're doing your job really well so I guess we're just going to have to eliminate it." If there's some percentage where they have to be in order for people to not think of it as automatic, I'm sure they could all agree to shank a few per year.

Treygreen13: Well damn, no wonder! Those are tiny. I was all over the place when I did it on regular NFL-size uprights.


The AFL kinda has their own issues with kickers; that it's low-percentage enough a play you're better served going for it on nearly every 4th down.

I personally found the Detroit/Philly game to be clownshoes and while fun to watch, it was kind of ridiculous that it counted as an actual football game toward the season totals.
 
2014-01-02 07:05:20 PM  
Bring back the drop kick. Belichick didn't suggest replacing the extra point place kick with a drop kick, but he is the only coach in the last 70 years to have his team score with a drop kick, which is still legal under NFL rules but is almost never used (Belichick sent Doug Flutie out to drop kick an extra point eight years ago.) The drop kick, on which the ball is bounced off the ground before being kicked, is more difficult and wouldn't be as automatic as the current extra point.
====================================================

I really really think we should do this. I've been in favor of this since Flutie performed that last one (and perhaps, even before then).

Drop kicks are far more difficult (in some conditions, virtually impossible) and would make things far more interesting.

Obviously, though, we can't make it more difficult than the 2 point conversion... (Though, I guess, if it becomes far more difficult, we could just make the 2 point conversion 1 point and make the more difficult 'extra point' 2 points)
 
2014-01-02 07:14:07 PM  
Do quotation marks not mean anything anymore?
 
2014-01-02 07:17:11 PM  

jake3988: I really really think we should do this. I've been in favor of this since Flutie performed that last one (and perhaps, even before then).


Could do like, again, the AFL, and give extra points for drop kicks (drop kick PATs are worth 2; drop-kick FGs are worth 4).

Of every variant of gridiron football, the NFL chooses the worst option in use and uses it.
 
2014-01-02 07:18:04 PM  

jake3988: Bring back the drop kick. Belichick didn't suggest replacing the extra point place kick with a drop kick, but he is the only coach in the last 70 years to have his team score with a drop kick, which is still legal under NFL rules but is almost never used (Belichick sent Doug Flutie out to drop kick an extra point eight years ago.) The drop kick, on which the ball is bounced off the ground before being kicked, is more difficult and wouldn't be as automatic as the current extra point.
====================================================



I know this is a wicked cool story bro...but I was at that game.
 
2014-01-02 07:26:38 PM  
I love the author and armchair QB's in this thread saying they 'agree with Bellicheck"....

really?!??  you agree with arguably the smartest man in the whole game... way to go out on a limb.
 
2014-01-02 07:39:04 PM  
Force the 2 point conversion (or 1 point conversion). Non-standardized rules, create more problems then they solve.

Keep it simple stupid.
 
2014-01-02 07:59:00 PM  

pute kisses like a man: i don't think i would change much...

if you move it back, then you decrease the 2 point conversion attempts.  if you have an option of moving it back or going for 2, then you kill any option for a fake, you also hurt the possibility of recovering after a botched snap, which is pretty exciting to watch.

if you give an automatic 7, with an option to go 6 or 8, you also kill the fake.

maybe moving it forward one yard will encourage more 2 point conversions, but it also makes them easier, which could inflate the scores such that field goals are worth less.  it would just upset the metrics that everyone considers at the moment.  and i like field goals.  a long 50 yard field goal is very exciting to watch, but if tds are now basically worth 8, that would make field goals less attractive.

basically, i think the system works.  it's fun to watch football.


Aaaaand the total number of teams that faked the point after this year,   zero zip zilch nada none
 
2014-01-02 08:05:13 PM  

T.rex: I love the author and armchair QB's in this thread saying they 'agree with Bellicheck"....

really?!??  you agree with arguably the smartest man in the whole game... way to go out on a limb.


Yeah, but did you notice how all of them said that so they could say they don't like Belichick?

"Hey, I'm no idiot, but I'd like to express my displeasure with the head coach of a team that routinely beats my team and is always playing games I wish my team was playing."
 
2014-01-02 08:35:00 PM  

T.rex: I love the author and armchair QB's in this thread saying they 'agree with Bellicheck"....

really?!??  you agree with arguably the smartest man in the whole game... way to go out on a limb.


It sounds like you don't love it at all.
 
2014-01-02 08:56:52 PM  

Treygreen13: T.rex: I love the author and armchair QB's in this thread saying they 'agree with Bellicheck"....

really?!??  you agree with arguably the smartest man in the whole game... way to go out on a limb.

It sounds like you don't love it at all.


He loves feeling superior to somebody.
 
2014-01-02 10:13:40 PM  
The player scoring the TD having to do the kicking is great.

I mean, if your OL recovers on a fumble in the endzone, that's basically a garbage TD that you got lucky on.  If you DT gets a sack fumble recovery TD, that's basically a bonus TD anyway.

Maybe part of the pregame warmups would have every player on the 52 man roster get in a long line and kick an extra point, like a layout drill in basketball.  Maybe they can invent a kicking machine so this can all happen rapid fire in the most exciting 2 minutes in sports.
 
2014-01-02 11:08:53 PM  

The_Sponge:


Glad I started the Belichick "let's party"meme.
 
2014-01-03 11:10:47 AM  

netweavr: Dr Dreidel: What about moving a PAT to the 15 or 20, but keeping 2-point tries on the 5?

Removes the surprise factor, making 2 points more difficult.


Teams don't really run surprise 2-point conversions.
 
2014-01-03 01:00:00 PM  
I would say get rid of the extra point. No PAT or conversion.

Why?

Then 2 FG = TD. While you are removing one of the kicker's jobs, you then make FG more valuable.
 
2014-01-03 06:10:05 PM  

Publikwerks: I would say get rid of the extra point. No PAT or conversion.

Why?

Then 2 FG = TD. While you are removing one of the kicker's jobs, you then make FG more valuable.


Congrats, you've just made the problem worse!
 
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