If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Pro Football Talk)   Belichick: "Kickers are stupid, we should get rid of them"   (profootballtalk.nbcsports.com) divider line 134
    More: Hero, Bill Belichick, play action pass, field goal kick, XFL, touchback, placekickers, Rob Gronkowski, kickers  
•       •       •

3674 clicks; posted to Sports » on 02 Jan 2014 at 1:42 PM (50 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



134 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-01-02 01:14:37 PM  
"I personally would love to see the kicking game remain as a very integral part of the game so that the kickoffs are returned and so that extra points are not over 99 percent converted because that's not what extra points were when they were initially put into the game back 80 years ago, whatever it was," Belichick said.

I agree with him. I love special teams and they have been utterly neutered.

Also, he should check himself. He has 3 rings because of a very good clutch kicker.
 
2014-01-02 01:23:15 PM  
I have to say I'm amused by the idea of the scoring player kicking the extra point.
 
2014-01-02 01:30:09 PM  

nmrsnr: I have to say I'm amused by the idea of the scoring player kicking the extra point.


That would be awesome to watch.
 
2014-01-02 01:32:14 PM  
I agree, kickers are stupid. You know what else is? Quarterbacks. farking fancy little prima donnas throwing the ball with laser speed and accuracy. Football should be like it was in the 70s, when some lunkhead like Terry Bradshaw would launch a duck, and there was no telling where it would come down or if George Atkinson had left anyone alive to catch it when it did finally land.
 
2014-01-02 01:32:17 PM  
They need to change the rule so the most successful QBs are less successful too. Which means "what a whiner."

Just move the spot. Kickoffs from the 10, extra points from the 40. Problem solved.
 
2014-01-02 01:37:16 PM  
In the XFL, that Vince McMahon-run football league that existed for one season, there were no extra point kicks. Teams got six points for a touchdown and then ran another play from the two-yard line, and if they scored they got one extra point. The NFL actually experimented with something like that during 1968 NFL-AFL preseason games, and the World Football League had a similar rule, called the Action Point, in the 1970s. In the playoffs the XFL changed its extra point rule to allow teams to go for two or three points by moving the line of scrimmage back farther from the goal line.

I would love to see this, at both the college and pro levels.
 
2014-01-02 01:39:57 PM  
I like the flights of fancy suggested by this article.  Given a 99.6% PAT success rate, it just isn't a competitive element any more.  Bump that PAT line back.

Marcus Aurelius: nmrsnr: I have to say I'm amused by the idea of the scoring player kicking the extra point.

That would be awesome to watch.


Definitely some dudes that routinely score touchdowns that you wouldn't want to "rough."  That's for sure.
 
2014-01-02 01:40:25 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: In the XFL, that Vince McMahon-run football league that existed for one season, there were no extra point kicks. Teams got six points for a touchdown and then ran another play from the two-yard line, and if they scored they got one extra point. The NFL actually experimented with something like that during 1968 NFL-AFL preseason games, and the World Football League had a similar rule, called the Action Point, in the 1970s. In the playoffs the XFL changed its extra point rule to allow teams to go for two or three points by moving the line of scrimmage back farther from the goal line.

I would love to see this, at both the college and pro levels.


1 point for a passing score, 2 points for a rushing score for all PATs.
 
2014-01-02 01:45:21 PM  
Right, because Adam Vinatieri didn't save Belichick's ass a dozen times.
 
2014-01-02 01:46:28 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: In the XFL, that Vince McMahon-run football league that existed for one season, there were no extra point kicks. Teams got six points for a touchdown and then ran another play from the two-yard line, and if they scored they got one extra point. The NFL actually experimented with something like that during 1968 NFL-AFL preseason games, and the World Football League had a similar rule, called the Action Point, in the 1970s. In the playoffs the XFL changed its extra point rule to allow teams to go for two or three points by moving the line of scrimmage back farther from the goal line.

I would love to see this, at both the college and pro levels.


I'm in favor of giving 7 points for a touchdown, with the team then having the option to pay 1 point to go for 2.
 
rka
2014-01-02 01:46:31 PM  

factoryconnection: I like the flights of fancy suggested by this article.  Given a 99.6% PAT success rate, it just isn't a competitive element any more.  Bump that PAT line back.



DNRTFA but no. Move the line to the 1 yard line.

Doesn't change the kick materially but it makes it a much more interesting decision on whether or not to go for two.
 
2014-01-02 01:46:59 PM  
I hate Belichick as much as the next guy, but he is talking about extra points, not FGs....and i agree with him.
 
2014-01-02 01:48:25 PM  

Arkanaut: Right, because Adam Vinatieri didn't save Belichick's ass a dozen times.



Are you one of those people who tries to shame billionaires who call for meaningful economic reform too?
 
2014-01-02 01:50:05 PM  
Alex Karras (yes, Mongo from Blazing Saddles and the dad from Webster) - once said, "no football game should be won by a 110 pound immigrant."

Always makes me laugh.
 
2014-01-02 01:50:30 PM  

nmrsnr: I have to say I'm amused by the idea of the scoring player kicking the extra point.


That'll make it more random, but once receivers start practicing kicks I think everyone would regret such a move.

Just ban the holder, bringing back the drop kick.  It's tougher to execute, but with zero safety impact, and as retro as any aspect of the game.
 
2014-01-02 01:50:39 PM  

Arkanaut: Right, because Adam Vinatieri didn't save Belichick's ass a dozen times.


He had nothing bad to say about field goals.
 
2014-01-02 01:50:53 PM  
Just go triple-OT in college mode and force teams to go for two.
 
2014-01-02 01:51:46 PM  

Milk D: Alex Karras (yes, Mongo from Blazing Saddles and the dad from Webster) - once said, "no football game should be won by a 110 pound immigrant."

Always makes me laugh.


Kickers only pawn in game of football.
 
2014-01-02 01:51:57 PM  
Require the player who scored the touchdown to kick the extra point.

I would LOVE to see a huge lineman kick a field goal after recovering a fumble for a touchdown.
 
2014-01-02 01:52:42 PM  
Instead of the current uprights, replace it with a 2 foot wide pole.  You have to hit the pole.
 
2014-01-02 01:54:15 PM  

Milk D: Alex Karras (yes, Mongo from Blazing Saddles and the dad from Webster) - once said, "no football game should be won by a 110 pound immigrant."

Always makes me laugh.


As the 250 lb son of Canadian and Greek immigrants, that's why probably why he added the weight disclaimer.
 
2014-01-02 01:56:20 PM  

Arkanaut: Right, because Adam Vinatieri didn't save Belichick's ass a dozen times.


Weirdly, Venatieri's career average on extra points (98.5%) is lower than this years league average.
 
2014-01-02 01:56:30 PM  

Milk D: Alex Karras (yes, Mongo from Blazing Saddles and the dad from Webster) - once said, "no football game should be won by a 110 pound immigrant."

Always makes me laugh.


This is the sports tab, why did you feel the need to explain who an ex-NFL player was?
 
2014-01-02 01:58:14 PM  

extras.mnginteractive.com

*Agrees whole heartedly with coach Belichick*

 
2014-01-02 01:58:21 PM  

dragonchild: That'll make it more random, but once receivers start practicing kicks I think everyone would regret such a move.


The point is more that you're not going to spend a lot of your resources training receivers to kick because it's more important that they practice their receiving. Yeah, they'll get a day or two boot camp with the special teams kicker so they have some facility with the mechanics, but they won't spend weeks practicing, their skills at receiving are more important to hone. So a position player kicking will never reach the auto-point level of professional kickers. Even if it becomes like the free-throw in basketball which has, what, a 75% success rate? It's still much different than 99.6%
 
2014-01-02 01:58:22 PM  

jaylectricity: Milk D: Alex Karras (yes, Mongo from Blazing Saddles and the dad from Webster) - once said, "no football game should be won by a 110 pound immigrant."

Always makes me laugh.

This is the sports tab, why did you feel the need to explain who an ex-NFL player was?


He was also referenced in Archer as someone Lana would fantasize with while she slept with Pam.
 
2014-01-02 01:58:48 PM  
Move kickoffs back.  And make some incentive for the team to run it out... perhaps give the kicking team a point if they can put it in the end zone.  But then you'd have to do away with the fair catch.  And then you'd have to protect the kicker from getting creamed by downfield tacklers when fielding a high kick.

Or, you could go to a longer and wider field, which makes kicks longer and the hash marks further apart and off-center.  And you might add some length to the end zones, so that there is less likelihood of a kicked ball to roll out of touch.

All of these exciting options.  If only there were some place where these ideas had been tried and tested for over a hundred years to see if they would be entertaining or not.
 
2014-01-02 01:59:47 PM  
Make the 2 point conversion a 3 point conversion.  Also, make field goals only 2 points.

Alternately, narrow the goal posts to Arena League width.
 
2014-01-02 02:01:03 PM  
Someone had a great idea of, i guess how Australian Rules Football does it (??), the kick has to be from where hte player crossed the goal line.  so that RB that taps the pylon with the ball, that's where the kicker would be angling it.  that would be cool as shiat.

and yeah, the "player who score dthe TD" has to kick, that would be tits.  spesh the defensive scores.  it;s been said already but the big d lineman kicking, that would be a hoot.  Karlos Dansby had a pcik six vs the rams, i can imagine him kicking the FG.
 
2014-01-02 02:01:40 PM  
Make TDs worth 11pts, and extra points worth -3.

Make 2 point conversions with 4 points, but keep the name '2 point conversion'

Move up kickoffs to the 50, but don't allow the use of a tee.

Make kick returners tie their shoes together.
 
2014-01-02 02:05:37 PM  

bart2puck: I hate Belichick as much as the next guy, but he is talking about extra points, not FGs....and i agree with him.


I hate Bliecheat with the white hot intensity of 100 supernovas. But I think he's right on this one.
 
2014-01-02 02:06:40 PM  
They shouldn't allow receivers to wear those sticky gloves, but QBs should be forced to wear them.
 
2014-01-02 02:06:59 PM  
Hes just mad since he got caught cheeting trying to block a field goal earlier this year.


Once a cheat always a cheat.
 
2014-01-02 02:07:55 PM  
But if the NFL got rid of extra points, then we would only have one commercial break after every touchdown, instead of two. And that hurts revenue.


I'm sure Goodell is drafting a sternly worded letter to Belichick as we speak.
 
2014-01-02 02:08:11 PM  

nmrsnr: The point is more that you're not going to spend a lot of your resources training receivers to kick because it's more important that they practice their receiving.


In terms of implementation, yeah, but it's going to wreak havoc on the economics of the game.  A receiver that scores a lot of TDs AND can kick PATs will be more desirable than an equivalent receiver with a brick for a foot.  That just sounds like a really dumb amendment to a player's legacy:  "And he can kick PATs too!"

It strikes me as an incredibly stupid way to bring unpredictability back into the game -- remove specialization from a game that is dominated by specialists.  Oh, it'll be hilarious the first few weeks when some TE clunks a PAT, but come time when the games start to matter, everyone will detest the idea -- especially when every team will still have a placekicker.  It'll change the game, but not in any way that people want to see when it's their team trying to win games.
 
2014-01-02 02:08:47 PM  

Arkanaut: Right, because Adam Vinatieri didn't save Belichick's ass a dozen times.


This.
 
2014-01-02 02:09:46 PM  

dragonchild: It strikes me as an incredibly stupid way to bring unpredictability back into the game -- remove specialization from a game that is dominated by specialists.  Oh, it'll be hilarious the first few weeks when some TE clunks a PAT, but come time when the games start to matter, everyone will detest the idea -- especially when every team will still have a placekicker.  It'll change the game, but not in any way that people want to see when it's their team trying to win games.


Think of this... down by 6 late, 3rd and goal from the 1.  You sub in your KICKER at halfback!
 
2014-01-02 02:09:54 PM  
For that matter, if you take PATs away from kickers, most teams will probably just go for 2 anyway, and it'd become another one of those archaic rules buried to all but football scholars.  Might as well just ban them entirely and make every team go for 2.
 
2014-01-02 02:10:43 PM  
Make it a change of possession play. If you score there's a kickoff, but if you fail the other team takes over where they recover (missing would count as a turnover on downs)
 
2014-01-02 02:11:46 PM  

mjohnson71: I hate Bliecheat with


Don't hurt yourself now. I think we're out of Bengay.
 
2014-01-02 02:12:54 PM  

netweavr: Make it a change of possession play. If you score there's a kickoff, but if you fail the other team takes over where they recover (missing would count as a turnover on downs)


Opposing teams would let them score as they'd get better field position on the kick off than on the recovery.
 
2014-01-02 02:14:47 PM  
I like rule change threads.  It's like sports talk radio and everybody coming up with the trades the GM should do.

Ya know, I don't know why they don't trade Chris Johnson for Luck.  The Colts need a running game.
 
2014-01-02 02:15:15 PM  
The Flutie drop-kick was eight years ago? Time flies.
 
2014-01-02 02:15:40 PM  
"foot"ball... lmao..
 
2014-01-02 02:19:41 PM  

MugzyBrown: Ya know, I don't know why they don't trade Chris Johnson for Luck.  The Colts need a running game.


Because they need a running game, not a stumble for 3 yards and fall down game.
 
2014-01-02 02:21:31 PM  

rka: Doesn't change the kick materially but it makes it a much more interesting decision on whether or not to go for two.


I like a combination of the two.  Kick from the 10 for 1 point, play from the 1 or 2 for 2 points.

Arkanaut: Right, because Adam Vinatieri didn't save Belichick's ass a dozen times.


Trollish headline is catching many fish today.  Belichick's beef is with kicking for the extra point, since it has a 99.6% conversion rate in the NFL being no longer a competitive element.  Nothing said about FGs.

Why Would I Read the Article: But if the NFL got rid of extra points, then we would only have one commercial break after every touchdown, instead of two. And that hurts revenue.


I'm sure Goodell is drafting a sternly worded letter to Belichick as we speak.


Snark aside, this is a huge amount of money we're talking... four to six more ads per TD because of the PAT.  That has to be pushing a million dollars per game.
 
2014-01-02 02:21:44 PM  
I like the idea of having a rotating goal post during extra points.  Maybe it could even be controlled by the opposing team's defensive coordinator.
 
2014-01-02 02:23:04 PM  

Nadie_AZ: netweavr: Make it a change of possession play. If you score there's a kickoff, but if you fail the other team takes over where they recover (missing would count as a turnover on downs)

Opposing teams would let them score as they'd get better field position on the kick off than on the recovery.


Losing a lead isn't worth the field position if you trust your offense.
 
2014-01-02 02:23:55 PM  

justabitdisturbed: I like the idea of having a rotating goal post during extra points.  Maybe it could even be controlled by the opposing team's defensive coordinator.


It could be like the Globetrotters:

*Ref approaches kicker*

To score, you need to kick the ball through the uprights

*points to opposite end of the field*

Those uprights.
 
2014-01-02 02:24:45 PM  

justabitdisturbed: I like the idea of having a rotating goal post during extra points.  Maybe it could even be controlled by the opposing team's defensive coordinator.


Just throw a windmill in front of it like mini-golf.
 
2014-01-02 02:24:49 PM  

netweavr: Nadie_AZ: netweavr: Make it a change of possession play. If you score there's a kickoff, but if you fail the other team takes over where they recover (missing would count as a turnover on downs)

Opposing teams would let them score as they'd get better field position on the kick off than on the recovery.

Losing a lead isn't worth the field position if you trust your offense.


As a Bills fan, I make it a point to never trust my offense. Not yet, anyways.
 
2014-01-02 02:25:55 PM  

nmrsnr: I have to say I'm amused by the idea of the scoring player kicking the extra point.


I like it rugby style. You have to pull it out perpendicular from where you went into the end zone. Say kick it from that spot at the 20-yard line.
 
2014-01-02 02:26:48 PM  
They could do it Pros vs Joes style.

Both teams pick 1 player.  Put the ball on the 5 / defender on the goalline.  You can't run outside of the hashmarks.
 
2014-01-02 02:26:48 PM  

MugzyBrown: justabitdisturbed: I like the idea of having a rotating goal post during extra points.  Maybe it could even be controlled by the opposing team's defensive coordinator.

It could be like the Globetrotters:

*Ref approaches kicker*

To score, you need to kick the ball through the uprights

*points to opposite end of the field*

Those uprights.


Yeah, I mean, while we're on the topic of ideas that are ridiculous and never going to be implemented, why not make the goal post itself also movable?  Like, side to side and back and forth, along with the rotation?  It would be like a video game within the game; that's what the young'uns like nowadays, right?
 
2014-01-02 02:29:26 PM  

RminusQ: I like it rugby style. You have to pull it out perpendicular from where you went into the end zone. Say kick it from that spot at the 20-yard line.


Would that eliminate the other team being on the field at the time as well?  Just the kicker trying for the point? I think that's a good idea.
 
2014-01-02 02:30:07 PM  
Keep kickers, but instead of kicking, they have to strike out the opposing team's mascot.
 
2014-01-02 02:30:18 PM  
Make it a 1 pt normal
2 pt conversion

and a 60 yard kick for 3.  That would spice things up in the 4th quarter.  Fully returnable too.
 
2014-01-02 02:30:25 PM  
i don't think i would change much...

if you move it back, then you decrease the 2 point conversion attempts.  if you have an option of moving it back or going for 2, then you kill any option for a fake, you also hurt the possibility of recovering after a botched snap, which is pretty exciting to watch.

if you give an automatic 7, with an option to go 6 or 8, you also kill the fake.

maybe moving it forward one yard will encourage more 2 point conversions, but it also makes them easier, which could inflate the scores such that field goals are worth less.  it would just upset the metrics that everyone considers at the moment.  and i like field goals.  a long 50 yard field goal is very exciting to watch, but if tds are now basically worth 8, that would make field goals less attractive.

basically, i think the system works.  it's fun to watch football.
 
2014-01-02 02:32:57 PM  
They could make the kicker do their own long snap as well.
 
2014-01-02 02:33:26 PM  
Move the line to the 50 and remove the caveat that the ball must be kicked through the uprights. All the offense needs to do is make the ball pass through the uprights prior to the play ending for 1 point. 2 point conversions are still allowed.
 
2014-01-02 02:34:54 PM  
As Peter King once wrote, there is nothing stopping you from going for two every time. He also says there are four downs, and no one is "forcing" you to punt on 4th down. He makes some suspicious statistical claims, but I would love to see Belicheck try it.
 
2014-01-02 02:36:39 PM  

ilikeracecars: As Peter King once wrote, there is nothing stopping you from going for two every time. He also says there are four downs, and no one is "forcing" you to punt on 4th down. He makes some suspicious statistical claims, but I would love to see Belicheck try it.


2007 Patriots went for it on 4th nearly every time...
 
2014-01-02 02:38:57 PM  
Ctrl-F "Vinatieri"...  leaving satisfied.
 
2014-01-02 02:42:05 PM  
If that would hasten the process of renaming the game to "HandEgg" then I'm all for it.
 
rka
2014-01-02 02:48:50 PM  

factoryconnection: rka: Doesn't change the kick materially but it makes it a much more interesting decision on whether or not to go for two.

I like a combination of the two.  Kick from the 10 for 1 point, play from the 1 or 2 for 2 points.


Too complicated. When do you decide? How long do you have to make a decision before the refs have to spot the ball? How long do the refs have to move the ball? Do you allow defensive substitutions if the placement changes at the last moment?

Christ, coaches can barely decide when to throw a challenge flag and you want to give them this?

Put it at the 1 and be done with it. Do you have the guts to try a 1 yard play into the endzone? Yes or No?
 
2014-01-02 02:49:31 PM  
Alter the goal posts so they can be mechanically narrowed during extra points. Like you just press a button and the setting pulls the goal posts in to a set "extra point length."

/yeah, i know that's kinda dumb
 
2014-01-02 02:50:14 PM  

unyon: Move kickoffs back.  And make some incentive for the team to run it out... perhaps give the kicking team a point if they can put it in the end zone.  But then you'd have to do away with the fair catch.  And then you'd have to protect the kicker from getting creamed by downfield tacklers when fielding a high kick.

Or, you could go to a longer and wider field, which makes kicks longer and the hash marks further apart and off-center.  And you might add some length to the end zones, so that there is less likelihood of a kicked ball to roll out of touch.

All of these exciting options.  If only there were some place where these ideas had been tried and tested for over a hundred years to see if they would be entertaining or not.


That's just crazy talk. Next you suggest they get rid of a down because it's too easy to make a first down with 4 tries. Or impose limits on the number of foreign born players a team can have.
 
2014-01-02 02:50:57 PM  
They should put the goalposts upside down so you have to kick the ball through at a low trajectory.  This will increase blocks, which are always exciting.
 
2014-01-02 02:53:15 PM  

netweavr: ilikeracecars: As Peter King once wrote, there is nothing stopping you from going for two every time. He also says there are four downs, and no one is "forcing" you to punt on 4th down. He makes some suspicious statistical claims, but I would love to see Belicheck try it.

2007 Patriots went for it on 4th nearly every time...


Gregg Easterbrook HATES punting, and statistically (says he), going for every 4th down is a good move. I think there might be some obvious things, like only on 4th and less than 5, or only beyond your own 30 or something, but it'd be amazing if teams just stopped fielding full-time punters.

What about moving a PAT to the 15 or 20, but keeping 2-point tries on the 5?
 
2014-01-02 02:54:25 PM  

Arkanaut: Right, because Adam Vinatieri didn't save Belichick's ass a dozen times.


He'd have a few less Super BOwl rings without Vinatieri, that's for sure!
 
2014-01-02 02:55:05 PM  

Dr Dreidel: What about moving a PAT to the 15 or 20, but keeping 2-point tries on the 5?


Removes the surprise factor, making 2 points more difficult.
 
2014-01-02 02:58:29 PM  

rka: Too complicated. When do you decide? How long do you have to make a decision before the refs have to spot the ball? How long do the refs have to move the ball? Do you allow defensive substitutions if the placement changes at the last moment?


Offensive team/coach tells the Ball Judge where to spot the ball - long or short. Once the ball is spotted, only a time-out or start of play can change that (and usual "no back-to-back timeouts" rules apply), and the offense is "stuck" with their decision.

Give them a fresh 25-second play clock after the score to make the decision, and another 15 to line up (or vice-versa); a 40 second play clock by another name.
 
2014-01-02 03:03:31 PM  
The person kicking the point after must either
A) Have a blood alcohol level greater than .3
B) Kick in high heeled shoes while wearing lingerie.

I'm hoping some ladies will finally find their way onto some NFL squads.  Odds are we'd get kickers in drag, but its worth a shot.
 
2014-01-02 03:06:27 PM  
the "k" ball should be filled with cement.
 
2014-01-02 03:06:51 PM  

Dr Dreidel: netweavr: ilikeracecars: As Peter King once wrote, there is nothing stopping you from going for two every time. He also says there are four downs, and no one is "forcing" you to punt on 4th down. He makes some suspicious statistical claims, but I would love to see Belicheck try it.

2007 Patriots went for it on 4th nearly every time...

Gregg Easterbrook HATES punting, and statistically (says he), going for every 4th down is a good move. I think there might be some obvious things, like only on 4th and less than 5, or only beyond your own 30 or something, but it'd be amazing if teams just stopped fielding full-time punters.

What about moving a PAT to the 15 or 20, but keeping 2-point tries on the 5?


Easterbrook and a few other stats guys I've read basically say the Expected Points (?) or whatever metric they were using tips in favor of going for it on 4th down every time it matched your criteria (4th and 5 or less, beyond your 40). They were using expected yards per point or something to gauge the improved field position. Basically any time you're at midfield at punt, you're only going to gain 20 yards. At that point it's more efficient to throw a deep pass near the endzone. Good chance you'll pin the opponent deep from an INT AND have a chance at scoring.
 
2014-01-02 03:08:51 PM  

netweavr: Dr Dreidel: What about moving a PAT to the 15 or 20, but keeping 2-point tries on the 5?

Removes the surprise factor, making 2 points more difficult.


I meant keep them on the 2, but it's not like there's much surprise in the PAT at present. The only thing it removes is the ability to fake a "FG" from the 2, and I wasn't seeing much of that anyway.
 
2014-01-02 03:08:52 PM  

RminusQ: nmrsnr: I have to say I'm amused by the idea of the scoring player kicking the extra point.

I like it rugby style. You have to pull it out perpendicular from where you went into the end zone. Say kick it from that spot at the 20-yard line.


As in rugby you can let the kickers go back as far as they feel they can make the kick.  So a PAT from a TD scored in the middle of the end zone would be tried from the 2 and the farther you move laterally, the farther the kicker can away from the goalposts to get a better angle.

Rugby also uses tees, and there really isn't a rush at the kicker.  You have to stand 10 meters back but you can move forward as soon as the kicker makes a move toward the teed ball.  You could do the same with dropkicks and offensive protection.
 
2014-01-02 03:09:13 PM  

Arkanaut: Right, because Adam Vinatieri didn't save Belichick's ass a dozen times.



But...but...tom brady!   LOL  Maybe billy was high when he made that statement
 
2014-01-02 03:19:39 PM  
I'll bet there was one time Tony Romo wished they had eliminated extra point tries.
 
2014-01-02 03:28:41 PM  

PluckYew: As in rugby you can let the kickers go back as far as they feel they can make the kick.  So a PAT from a TD scored in the middle of the end zone would be tried from the 2 and the farther you move laterally, the farther the kicker can away from the goalposts to get a better angle.


Nah, screw that.  Make them snap from the two.  If they want a good angle, they better have a hell of a long snapper.  And give the opposing team the option to take any penalties on the ensuing kickoff, so the scoring team can't cheat themselves back.
 
2014-01-02 03:29:48 PM  
Bill "Won two superbowls only by a field goal" Belichick: "Kickers are stupid, we should get rid of them"
 
2014-01-02 03:30:22 PM  

vladimpaler: I'll bet there was one time Tony Romo wished they had eliminated extra point tries.


cdn1.tabletmag.com
IF YOU STRIKE ME DOWN
I SHALL BECOME MORE POWERFUL THAN YOU COULD POSSIBLY IMAGINE
NOW STOP MAKING THREADS NOT ABOUT ME INTO THREADS ABOUT ME OR THESE KIDS GET IT
 
2014-01-02 03:37:58 PM  

deadsanta: Arkanaut: Right, because Adam Vinatieri didn't save Belichick's ass a dozen times.

Are you one of those people who tries to shame billionaires who call for meaningful economic reform too?


Who would guess the most insightful comment in this thread would come from a user named deadsanta?
 
2014-01-02 03:47:49 PM  

netweavr: ilikeracecars: As Peter King once wrote, there is nothing stopping you from going for two every time. He also says there are four downs, and no one is "forcing" you to punt on 4th down. He makes some suspicious statistical claims, but I would love to see Belicheck try it.

2007 Patriots went for it on 4th nearly every time...


Not even close.

15/21 4th down conversions

44 Punts for 1821 yards
 
2014-01-02 03:48:53 PM  

jack_o_the_hills: "foot"ball... lmao..


sadbad: If that would hasten the process of renaming the game to "HandEgg" then I'm all for it.


Although the accepted etymology of the word football, or "foot ball", originated in reference to the action of a foot kicking a ball, this may be a false etymology. An alternative, controversial, explanation has it that the word originally referred to a variety of games in medieval Europe, which were played on foot.[6]

These sports were usually played by peasants, as opposed to the horse-riding sports more often enjoyed by aristocrats. In some cases, the word has been applied to games which involved carrying a ball and specifically banned kicking.

For example, the English writer William Hone, writing in 1825 or 1826, quotes the social commentator Sir Frederick Morton Eden, regarding a game - which Hone refers to as "Foot-Ball" - played in the parish of Scone, Perthshire: The game was this: he who at any time got the ball into his hands, run [sic] with it till overtaken by one of the opposite part; and then, if he could shake himself loose from those on the opposite side who seized him, he run on; if not, he threw the ball from him, unless it was wrested from him by the other party, but no person was allowed to kick it.[7]

-wikipedia

and now you know
 
2014-01-02 03:51:06 PM  

GregoryD: and now you know


Not sure the guys who come to every thread and brag about soccer really care about word etymology.
 
2014-01-02 03:52:08 PM  

jaylectricity: netweavr: ilikeracecars: As Peter King once wrote, there is nothing stopping you from going for two every time. He also says there are four downs, and no one is "forcing" you to punt on 4th down. He makes some suspicious statistical claims, but I would love to see Belicheck try it.

2007 Patriots went for it on 4th nearly every time...

Not even close.

15/21 4th down conversions

44 Punts for 1821 yards


Ok, so he was wrong about it being "nearly every time".

Going for it 32% of the time is still WAY more then any other team I have ever heard of in the pros.
 
2014-01-02 03:54:07 PM  

Jim from Saint Paul: jaylectricity: netweavr: ilikeracecars: As Peter King once wrote, there is nothing stopping you from going for two every time. He also says there are four downs, and no one is "forcing" you to punt on 4th down. He makes some suspicious statistical claims, but I would love to see Belicheck try it.

2007 Patriots went for it on 4th nearly every time...

Not even close.

15/21 4th down conversions

44 Punts for 1821 yards

Ok, so he was wrong about it being "nearly every time".

Going for it 32% of the time is still WAY more then any other team I have ever heard of in the pros.


They also attempted 24 FGs
 
2014-01-02 03:54:36 PM  
All they need to do is implement kicking hash marks.  Right now the hashes align with the goal posts making and kick pretty much straight on.   Put hashes to where college is or even wider.  Makes kicking more of a skill than it is now.
 
2014-01-02 03:55:56 PM  
I miss kick returns. Otherwise I'm happy with everything else about the kicking game
 
2014-01-02 03:56:01 PM  

MugzyBrown: Jim from Saint Paul: jaylectricity: netweavr: ilikeracecars: As Peter King once wrote, there is nothing stopping you from going for two every time. He also says there are four downs, and no one is "forcing" you to punt on 4th down. He makes some suspicious statistical claims, but I would love to see Belicheck try it.

2007 Patriots went for it on 4th nearly every time...

Not even close.

15/21 4th down conversions

44 Punts for 1821 yards

Ok, so he was wrong about it being "nearly every time".

Going for it 32% of the time is still WAY more then any other team I have ever heard of in the pros.

They also attempted 24 FGs


So 23% of the time.

Thanks for looking that up. I completely forgot about FGs.
 
2014-01-02 03:56:26 PM  

Jim from Saint Paul: jaylectricity: netweavr: ilikeracecars: As Peter King once wrote, there is nothing stopping you from going for two every time. He also says there are four downs, and no one is "forcing" you to punt on 4th down. He makes some suspicious statistical claims, but I would love to see Belicheck try it.

2007 Patriots went for it on 4th nearly every time...

Not even close.

15/21 4th down conversions

44 Punts for 1821 yards

Ok, so he was wrong about it being "nearly every time".

Going for it 32% of the time is still WAY more then any other team I have ever heard of in the pros.


Well, for a team that doesn't need to, yeah. Some teams (like the Browns this year who sucked) sort of have to go for it because they're losing. They went for it 31 times and punted 95 times.

5 different teams went for it on 4th down fewer than 10 times. The Broncos went for it 9 times and converted 8.
 
2014-01-02 03:57:21 PM  

DoBeDoBeDo: All they need to do is implement kicking hash marks.  Right now the hashes align with the goal posts making and kick pretty much straight on.   Put hashes to where college is or even wider.  Makes kicking more of a skill than it is now.


Kick from wherever the ball was when you were tackled. Running out of bounds at the 30 to set up the FG? Hope you're good at angles.
 
2014-01-02 03:59:12 PM  
A lot of time the Pats go for it on 4th because just taking the 3 points just runs up the score. Of course, this is lost on all the whiners.
 
2014-01-02 04:01:44 PM  
40 yards in = 3
40 -50 = 4
50 - 60= 5
60 plus = 6
 
2014-01-02 04:03:59 PM  
They could go back to the way Rugby does conversion attempts. The same player who scored the touchdown kicks, straight back from where he scored it. If that's not right down the middle, he'll probably miss. Also, Rugby players drop kick. There is no holder.
 
2014-01-02 04:05:03 PM  
How about:
 * The player must put the ball through the uprights during the course of the TD play for the extra point.
 
2014-01-02 04:09:15 PM  

netweavr: How about:
 * The player must put the ball through the uprights during the course of the TD play for the extra point.


Well isn't the play over immediately when you are standing in the end zone with the ball or gone all the way to the ground with the catch? If you threw it through the goal posts before you scored the TD it's not a TD.
 
2014-01-02 04:10:29 PM  

Treygreen13: GregoryD: and now you know

Not sure the guys who come to every thread and brag about soccer really care about word etymology.


Yes, because bragging about soccer is EXACTLY what I was doing there.  Care to dazzle us with any other brilliant bits of enlightened observation from your endless pool of knowledge?

 Don't get your vagoo all sanded there Football Defender™.. I don't care for either game.
 
2014-01-02 04:11:11 PM  
The scoring player should have to answer a series of increasingly difficult trivia questions.

If at any time you answer one wrong, your point total goes back to 6.  You can quit at any time.

Also once per game, you can poll the audience, but this may backfire on the road!
 
2014-01-02 04:12:00 PM  

Treygreen13: netweavr: How about:
 * The player must put the ball through the uprights during the course of the TD play for the extra point.

Well isn't the play over immediately when you are standing in the end zone with the ball or gone all the way to the ground with the catch? If you threw it through the goal posts before you scored the TD it's not a TD.


That would have to be amended along with "forward passing" rules (I'm randomly speculating). If you're downed in the end-zone, you only get 6. If you can get the ball through prior to being tackled, then you get the extra point. If you throw the ball threw prior to crossing the plane, then it's a touch-back and you're cut from the team.
 
2014-01-02 04:13:27 PM  

netweavr: How about:
 * The player must put the ball through the uprights during the course of the TD play for the extra point.


* The player must put the ball through the uprights during the course of the TD play for the extra point. If the ball misses and remains inside the endzone it is a fumble and if recovered by the defending team, no points are scored and a Touchback is awarded.

Let's do this.
 
2014-01-02 04:15:28 PM  
i22.photobucket.com
 
2014-01-02 04:17:11 PM  

netweavr: That would have to be amended along with "forward passing" rules (I'm randomly speculating). If you're downed in the end-zone, you only get 6. If you can get the ball through prior to being tackled, then you get the extra point. If you throw the ball threw prior to crossing the plane, then it's a touch-back and you're cut from the team.


Not cut, catapulted.
 
2014-01-02 04:17:49 PM  

jack_o_the_hills: Treygreen13: GregoryD: and now you know

Not sure the guys who come to every thread and brag about soccer really care about word etymology.

Yes, because bragging about soccer is EXACTLY what I was doing there.  Care to dazzle us with any other brilliant bits of enlightened observation from your endless pool of knowledge?

 Don't get your vagoo all sanded there Football Defender™.. I don't care for either game.


Don't know the origin, don't like the game, don't like the other game with the same name, just wanted to come dump in the thread, and you're testy about it?

legacy-cdn.smosh.com
 
2014-01-02 04:41:06 PM  

wheatpennyandaglock: 40 yards in = 3
40 -50 = 4
50 - 60= 5
60 plus = 6


now we are getting into fantasy football-type scoring with this.

I've always liked the idea of a missed XP being -5 points.  It doesn't happen often, but when it does happen, it will hurt like a biatch.  The detroit/ philly game in the snow was fun to watch because they couldn't kick at all.
 
2014-01-02 04:44:18 PM  
Make the PAT like rugby so the kicker has to kick from severe angles sometimes. While we're at it, make the players have to actually touch the ball down in the end zone. I'm sick of the players holding the ball out with their arms while their body is still out of the end zone.
 
2014-01-02 04:46:44 PM  

SlothB77: wheatpennyandaglock: 40 yards in = 3
40 -50 = 4
50 - 60= 5
60 plus = 6

now we are getting into fantasy football-type scoring with this.

I've always liked the idea of a missed XP being -5 points.  It doesn't happen often, but when it does happen, it will hurt like a biatch.  The detroit/ philly game in the snow was fun to watch because they couldn't kick at all.


Looks like this year, only 1 XP was legitimately shanked - the rest were blocked. The Vikings, of course, were the team to miss one.

I've mentioned this before, but if you ever get a chance, try to kick an XP. It's astonishingly easy (at least when nobody is trying to block it). One of my teachers in high school was a kicker in college and we'd go out to the field on free days and kick from all over the field. As long as you're even slightly athletic extra points are basically automatic. You've got to really miss the ball to not put one through.

Now, any further out and you see how the real kickers are really good. I couldn't hit a 40 yarder to save my life.
 
2014-01-02 04:58:28 PM  

redmid17: Dr Dreidel: netweavr: ilikeracecars: As Peter King once wrote, there is nothing stopping you from going for two every time. He also says there are four downs, and no one is "forcing" you to punt on 4th down. He makes some suspicious statistical claims, but I would love to see Belicheck try it.

2007 Patriots went for it on 4th nearly every time...

Gregg Easterbrook HATES punting, and statistically (says he), going for every 4th down is a good move. I think there might be some obvious things, like only on 4th and less than 5, or only beyond your own 30 or something, but it'd be amazing if teams just stopped fielding full-time punters.

What about moving a PAT to the 15 or 20, but keeping 2-point tries on the 5?

Easterbrook and a few other stats guys I've read basically say the Expected Points (?) or whatever metric they were using tips in favor of going for it on 4th down every time it matched your criteria (4th and 5 or less, beyond your 40). They were using expected yards per point or something to gauge the improved field position. Basically any time you're at midfield at punt, you're only going to gain 20 yards. At that point it's more efficient to throw a deep pass near the endzone. Good chance you'll pin the opponent deep from an INT AND have a chance at scoring.


Yeah, I think I got Easterbrook and King mixed up for some reason. Definitely meant Easterbrook.
 
2014-01-02 04:58:44 PM  

Treygreen13: SlothB77: wheatpennyandaglock: 40 yards in = 3
40 -50 = 4
50 - 60= 5
60 plus = 6

now we are getting into fantasy football-type scoring with this.

I've always liked the idea of a missed XP being -5 points.  It doesn't happen often, but when it does happen, it will hurt like a biatch.  The detroit/ philly game in the snow was fun to watch because they couldn't kick at all.

Looks like this year, only 1 XP was legitimately shanked - the rest were blocked. The Vikings, of course, were the team to miss one.

I've mentioned this before, but if you ever get a chance, try to kick an XP. It's astonishingly easy (at least when nobody is trying to block it). One of my teachers in high school was a kicker in college and we'd go out to the field on free days and kick from all over the field. As long as you're even slightly athletic extra points are basically automatic. You've got to really miss the ball to not put one through.

Now, any further out and you see how the real kickers are really good. I couldn't hit a 40 yarder to save my life.


My brother and I played soccer. I picked it up reliably in a few hours. I don't even think anyone needed to teach my brother.

CSB: When the freshman football were deprived of their kicker on a friday because we had an away tournament that weekend, the kicker spent a practice or two with a few guys and had them almost automatic from inside 25 yards. The freshman team then failed to score any points, thus negating the practice and possibly Murphy's law.
 
2014-01-02 05:36:29 PM  

Treygreen13: It's astonishingly easy (at least when nobody is trying to block it).


Just about as easy as running for a TD when nobody's trying to tackle you.

/Also, I wanted to point out that Romo was holding on a FG attempt (though a really short one), not a PAT, so the earlier comment by the other person was even dumber than you'd given credit for
 
2014-01-02 05:40:38 PM  

IAmRight: Treygreen13: It's astonishingly easy (at least when nobody is trying to block it).

Just about as easy as running for a TD when nobody's trying to tackle you.

/Also, I wanted to point out that Romo was holding on a FG attempt (though a really short one), not a PAT, so the earlier comment by the other person was even dumber than you'd given credit for


Well anyone on the planet who isn't handicapped in some way can run in a straight line. But approaching a target being held by someone and kicking it as hard as you can takes a *little* coordination.
 
2014-01-02 05:40:42 PM  

Nadie_AZ: Also, he should check himself. He has 3 rings because of a very good clutch kicker.


You do realize, I'm sure, that the "clutch kicking" you're talking about was hitting field goals and those are NOT was the article was about, yes?

Personally, I like the idea of "whoever scores the touchdown has to make the kick" though the reality of that would be no different from eliminating the extra-point kick entirely since pretty much everyone would simply and automatically go for two.
 
2014-01-02 05:41:39 PM  
EXTRA POINT, Subby! NOT Kickers! Belichick knows he wouldn't have a single Super Bowl ring without Adam Vinatieri! >:-(
 
2014-01-02 05:45:25 PM  

Pardon Me Sultan: Nadie_AZ: Also, he should check himself. He has 3 rings because of a very good clutch kicker.

You do realize, I'm sure, that the "clutch kicking" you're talking about was hitting field goals and those are NOT was the article was about, yes?

Personally, I like the idea of "whoever scores the touchdown has to make the kick" though the reality of that would be no different from eliminating the extra-point kick entirely since pretty much everyone would simply and automatically go for two.


I dunno... there are some notable non-kickers who have kicked extra points.
www.obsessedwithsports.com
static.nfl.com
i.cdn.turner.com
Although Suh did miss.
 
2014-01-02 05:48:05 PM  

Treygreen13: Well anyone on the planet who isn't handicapped in some way can run in a straight line. But approaching a target being held by someone and kicking it as hard as you can takes a *little* coordination.


All I'm saying is that the "when nobody is trying to block it" is a HUGE part of the process, as are the snap and hold. Saying it's super easy when there's no defense or rush to get the kick off is as silly as acting as though running backs don't do anything of significance because that's super easy if there's no defense; as is completing a pass.

/my only experience trying to kick is kicking on Arena uprights. I made the first one, then botched like six in a row (the bar is higher and the uprights are half the width). It's not really "easy" to do ANYTHING with 100% accuracy, to be honest
//it's kinda silly for everyone to always go with "dammit kickers, you guys are putting in a hell of a lot of work to be consistently good...Congrats! Now we're going to eliminate part of your job (and therefore reduce your pay in all likelihood)."
 
2014-01-02 05:50:08 PM  
Subby can't read and neither can anyone who brought up Vinatieri
 
2014-01-02 06:02:08 PM  

IAmRight: All I'm saying is that the "when nobody is trying to block it" is a HUGE part of the process, as are the snap and hold. Saying it's super easy when there's no defense or rush to get the kick off is as silly as acting as though running backs don't do anything of significance because that's super easy if there's no defense; as is completing a pass.


I didn't mean to insult the ability of kickers - just to point out how easy it is to make a ball go that distance into a target that wide. The kicker has no control over the holder or line so they just have to kick it high enough that nobody can swat it down, which is easy at that distance.

Which is why there were 1,338 touchdowns this year (the vast majority of which were followed by XP attempts instead of conversion attempts) and only one extra point was missed. If there was so much stress and danger of the XP getting blocked more than 4 out of the 1000-something XPs would be blocked too.

Anyway, I don't think the XP needs to be changed.

IAmRight: /my only experience trying to kick is kicking on Arena uprights.


Well damn, no wonder! Those are tiny. I was all over the place when I did it on regular NFL-size uprights.
 
2014-01-02 06:48:18 PM  

Treygreen13: Which is why there were 1,338 touchdowns this year (the vast majority of which were followed by XP attempts instead of conversion attempts) and only one extra point was missed. If there was so much stress and danger of the XP getting blocked more than 4 out of the 1000-something XPs would be blocked too.


Yeah, though you have to consider that not many of them are actually contested with all that much effort. I guess I'm fine with getting rid of them in theory; I just don't like the implications of, like I said, "well, you're doing your job really well so I guess we're just going to have to eliminate it." If there's some percentage where they have to be in order for people to not think of it as automatic, I'm sure they could all agree to shank a few per year.

Treygreen13: Well damn, no wonder! Those are tiny. I was all over the place when I did it on regular NFL-size uprights.


The AFL kinda has their own issues with kickers; that it's low-percentage enough a play you're better served going for it on nearly every 4th down.

I personally found the Detroit/Philly game to be clownshoes and while fun to watch, it was kind of ridiculous that it counted as an actual football game toward the season totals.
 
2014-01-02 07:05:20 PM  
Bring back the drop kick. Belichick didn't suggest replacing the extra point place kick with a drop kick, but he is the only coach in the last 70 years to have his team score with a drop kick, which is still legal under NFL rules but is almost never used (Belichick sent Doug Flutie out to drop kick an extra point eight years ago.) The drop kick, on which the ball is bounced off the ground before being kicked, is more difficult and wouldn't be as automatic as the current extra point.
====================================================

I really really think we should do this. I've been in favor of this since Flutie performed that last one (and perhaps, even before then).

Drop kicks are far more difficult (in some conditions, virtually impossible) and would make things far more interesting.

Obviously, though, we can't make it more difficult than the 2 point conversion... (Though, I guess, if it becomes far more difficult, we could just make the 2 point conversion 1 point and make the more difficult 'extra point' 2 points)
 
2014-01-02 07:14:07 PM  
Do quotation marks not mean anything anymore?
 
2014-01-02 07:17:11 PM  

jake3988: I really really think we should do this. I've been in favor of this since Flutie performed that last one (and perhaps, even before then).


Could do like, again, the AFL, and give extra points for drop kicks (drop kick PATs are worth 2; drop-kick FGs are worth 4).

Of every variant of gridiron football, the NFL chooses the worst option in use and uses it.
 
2014-01-02 07:18:04 PM  

jake3988: Bring back the drop kick. Belichick didn't suggest replacing the extra point place kick with a drop kick, but he is the only coach in the last 70 years to have his team score with a drop kick, which is still legal under NFL rules but is almost never used (Belichick sent Doug Flutie out to drop kick an extra point eight years ago.) The drop kick, on which the ball is bounced off the ground before being kicked, is more difficult and wouldn't be as automatic as the current extra point.
====================================================



I know this is a wicked cool story bro...but I was at that game.
 
2014-01-02 07:26:38 PM  
I love the author and armchair QB's in this thread saying they 'agree with Bellicheck"....

really?!??  you agree with arguably the smartest man in the whole game... way to go out on a limb.
 
2014-01-02 07:39:04 PM  
Force the 2 point conversion (or 1 point conversion). Non-standardized rules, create more problems then they solve.

Keep it simple stupid.
 
2014-01-02 07:59:00 PM  

pute kisses like a man: i don't think i would change much...

if you move it back, then you decrease the 2 point conversion attempts.  if you have an option of moving it back or going for 2, then you kill any option for a fake, you also hurt the possibility of recovering after a botched snap, which is pretty exciting to watch.

if you give an automatic 7, with an option to go 6 or 8, you also kill the fake.

maybe moving it forward one yard will encourage more 2 point conversions, but it also makes them easier, which could inflate the scores such that field goals are worth less.  it would just upset the metrics that everyone considers at the moment.  and i like field goals.  a long 50 yard field goal is very exciting to watch, but if tds are now basically worth 8, that would make field goals less attractive.

basically, i think the system works.  it's fun to watch football.


Aaaaand the total number of teams that faked the point after this year,   zero zip zilch nada none
 
2014-01-02 08:05:13 PM  

T.rex: I love the author and armchair QB's in this thread saying they 'agree with Bellicheck"....

really?!??  you agree with arguably the smartest man in the whole game... way to go out on a limb.


Yeah, but did you notice how all of them said that so they could say they don't like Belichick?

"Hey, I'm no idiot, but I'd like to express my displeasure with the head coach of a team that routinely beats my team and is always playing games I wish my team was playing."
 
2014-01-02 08:35:00 PM  

T.rex: I love the author and armchair QB's in this thread saying they 'agree with Bellicheck"....

really?!??  you agree with arguably the smartest man in the whole game... way to go out on a limb.


It sounds like you don't love it at all.
 
2014-01-02 08:56:52 PM  

Treygreen13: T.rex: I love the author and armchair QB's in this thread saying they 'agree with Bellicheck"....

really?!??  you agree with arguably the smartest man in the whole game... way to go out on a limb.

It sounds like you don't love it at all.


He loves feeling superior to somebody.
 
2014-01-02 10:13:40 PM  
The player scoring the TD having to do the kicking is great.

I mean, if your OL recovers on a fumble in the endzone, that's basically a garbage TD that you got lucky on.  If you DT gets a sack fumble recovery TD, that's basically a bonus TD anyway.

Maybe part of the pregame warmups would have every player on the 52 man roster get in a long line and kick an extra point, like a layout drill in basketball.  Maybe they can invent a kicking machine so this can all happen rapid fire in the most exciting 2 minutes in sports.
 
2014-01-02 11:08:53 PM  

The_Sponge:


Glad I started the Belichick "let's party"meme.
 
2014-01-03 11:10:47 AM  

netweavr: Dr Dreidel: What about moving a PAT to the 15 or 20, but keeping 2-point tries on the 5?

Removes the surprise factor, making 2 points more difficult.


Teams don't really run surprise 2-point conversions.
 
2014-01-03 01:00:00 PM  
I would say get rid of the extra point. No PAT or conversion.

Why?

Then 2 FG = TD. While you are removing one of the kicker's jobs, you then make FG more valuable.
 
2014-01-03 06:10:05 PM  

Publikwerks: I would say get rid of the extra point. No PAT or conversion.

Why?

Then 2 FG = TD. While you are removing one of the kicker's jobs, you then make FG more valuable.


Congrats, you've just made the problem worse!
 
Displayed 134 of 134 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter





In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report