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(National Monitor)   Global warming means mangrove swamps are growing northward. That's right, Florida is spreading   (natmonitor.com ) divider line
    More: Florida, global warming, mangroves, ecology and evolutionary biology, salt marshes, time series, Atlantic coast, postdoctoral researcher  
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721 clicks; posted to Geek » on 02 Jan 2014 at 10:07 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-02 09:38:29 AM  
America's treasure-trail now begins in NC.
 
2014-01-02 10:20:54 AM  
Man, I just got back from Florida. Mangrove swamps are actually pretty cool. They're just so alien, with the roots snaking around and tree crabs scuttling about.
 
2014-01-02 10:21:39 AM  
I, for one, am willing to entertain the idea of Washington DC catching on fire and sinking into a swamp.
 
2014-01-02 10:28:01 AM  
Just so long as the Keys stay above water for a few more years.
 
2014-01-02 10:28:21 AM  

cgraves67: I, for one, am willing to entertain the idea of Washington DC catching on fire and sinking into a swamp.


DC was built on a swamp, wasn't it?
 
2014-01-02 10:29:04 AM  
I blame De soto for leaving a decanter of endless water somewhere in the everglades.
 
2014-01-02 10:29:07 AM  
i1.ytimg.com

Amused.
 
2014-01-02 10:31:15 AM  

cgraves67: I, for one, am willing to entertain the idea of Washington DC catching on fire and sinking into a swamp.


No, there are too many cool monuments and museums and documents there. But I wouldn't mind seeing the people in congress burn and sink into a swamp.
 
2014-01-02 10:31:43 AM  
Yes, and the National Freakout said they've become sentient beings, with the ability to creep about.

/sounds like the scientists are reaching for grant funding, just a little more?
 
2014-01-02 10:36:20 AM  

Richard C Stanford: cgraves67: I, for one, am willing to entertain the idea of Washington DC catching on fire and sinking into a swamp.

No, there are too many cool monuments and museums and documents there. But I wouldn't mind seeing the people in congress burn and sink into a swamp.


DC would look cool as Thundarr type ruins.
 
2014-01-02 10:54:09 AM  

Fano: Richard C Stanford: cgraves67: I, for one, am willing to entertain the idea of Washington DC catching on fire and sinking into a swamp.

No, there are too many cool monuments and museums and documents there. But I wouldn't mind seeing the people in congress burn and sink into a swamp.

DC would look cool as Thundarr type ruins.



Dibs on the sun-sword.
 
2014-01-02 10:55:14 AM  

SoupJohnB: /sounds like the scientists are reaching for grant funding, just a little more?


Um, they used satellite imagery recorded over decades and mapped where the swamps were.  They're getting much bigger over time.  This is despite Florida's population growing by ~120K people/year, with the associated clearing of swampland.

The swamps' growth is stronger in winters with fewer cold snaps.  They also know that specific plants native to those swamps don't survive cold snaps.  This is not a challenging experiment to run.

It doesn't require a global conspiracy to explain this.  It's also worthwhile to pay a couple of scientists to go over the satellite data and extract the rate and geographical distribution of the swamps' growth.  Helps with planning, and all.

You claim to be from Florida, so let me know if this extremely technical explanation is too complex for you.  I know it's as scary as "volcano monitoring" and other things that scare Tea Party types.
 
2014-01-02 11:19:45 AM  

mainstreet62: cgraves67: I, for one, am willing to entertain the idea of Washington DC catching on fire and sinking into a swamp.

DC was built on a swamp, wasn't it?


Yeah... Like many American cities.  Europeans were pretty stupid that way when they got to America.

/Take the "Seattle Underground" tour some time.
 
2014-01-02 11:26:45 AM  
What they found was the area's decline in the frequency of days where temperature dips below -25 degrees Farenheit


A decline of zero to zero?
 
2014-01-02 11:47:46 AM  

chimp_ninja: SoupJohnB: /sounds like the scientists are reaching for grant funding, just a little more?

Um, they used satellite imagery recorded over decades and mapped where the swamps were.  They're getting much bigger over time.  This is despite Florida's population growing by ~120K people/year, with the associated clearing of swampland.

The swamps' growth is stronger in winters with fewer cold snaps.  They also know that specific plants native to those swamps don't survive cold snaps.  This is not a challenging experiment to run.

It doesn't require a global conspiracy to explain this.  It's also worthwhile to pay a couple of scientists to go over the satellite data and extract the rate and geographical distribution of the swamps' growth.  Helps with planning, and all.

You claim to be from Florida, so let me know if this extremely technical explanation is too complex for you.  I know it's as scary as "volcano monitoring" and other things that scare Tea Party types.


That was just a lame troll by me, I guess.  I'm a Science geek, and should be ashamed of myself. :)
 
2014-01-02 11:58:42 AM  
Actually, humans planted mangroves further north, which proves that mangroves are moving further north.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/01/another-conservation-success-s to ry-hijacked-by-climate-alarmists/
 
2014-01-02 12:19:59 PM  

WelldeadLink: Actually, humans planted mangroves further north, which proves that mangroves are moving further north.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/01/another-conservation-success-s to ry-hijacked-by-climate-alarmists/


You can plant all the mangroves you want, but when it gets cold, they die. It's as simple as that. That's why they disappear the more north you go in Florida. The mangrove seeds still land on the shore, just like they do a bit more south, but they can't survive so they are replaced by salt marsh.

That's science. I don't know why some people insist on clinging to tomfoolery like your link to attempt to prove a point. It only makes you look really ignorant.
 
2014-01-02 12:20:01 PM  

SoupJohnB: Yes, and the National Freakout said they've become sentient beings, with the ability to creep about.

/sounds like the scientists are reaching for grant funding, just a little more?


Yes that sweet sweet money. Lazy scientists driving around in their flashy civics and metros. Such decadent opulence.
 
2014-01-02 12:23:53 PM  

SoupJohnB: chimp_ninja: SoupJohnB: /sounds like the scientists are reaching for grant funding, just a little more?

Um, they used satellite imagery recorded over decades and mapped where the swamps were.  They're getting much bigger over time.  This is despite Florida's population growing by ~120K people/year, with the associated clearing of swampland.

The swamps' growth is stronger in winters with fewer cold snaps.  They also know that specific plants native to those swamps don't survive cold snaps.  This is not a challenging experiment to run.

It doesn't require a global conspiracy to explain this.  It's also worthwhile to pay a couple of scientists to go over the satellite data and extract the rate and geographical distribution of the swamps' growth.  Helps with planning, and all.

You claim to be from Florida, so let me know if this extremely technical explanation is too complex for you.  I know it's as scary as "volcano monitoring" and other things that scare Tea Party types.

That was just a lame troll by me, I guess.  I'm a Science geek, and should be ashamed of myself. :)


Yes, you needed more derp.  :)
 
2014-01-02 12:26:29 PM  

Confabulat: WelldeadLink: Actually, humans planted mangroves further north, which proves that mangroves are moving further north.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/01/another-conservation-success-s to ry-hijacked-by-climate-alarmists/

You can plant all the mangroves you want, but when it gets cold, they die. It's as simple as that. That's why they disappear the more north you go in Florida. The mangrove seeds still land on the shore, just like they do a bit more south, but they can't survive so they are replaced by salt marsh.

That's science. I don't know why some people insist on clinging to tomfoolery like your link to attempt to prove a point. It only makes you look really ignorant.


Well, Anthony Watts *is* one of the most ignorant climate bloggers out there, so...     yeah.

/Funny how Watts was totally behind the Mueller study right until it confirmed everything we already knew...
 
2014-01-02 12:31:41 PM  

WelldeadLink: Actually, humans planted mangroves further north, which proves that mangroves are moving further north.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/01/another-conservation-success-s to ry-hijacked-by-climate-alarmists/


---
Their introduction also suggested that the authors were more interested in proving global warming than investigating all the confounding factors that may have also affected the increase in mangroves along their study site of the Indian River Lagoon. I was immediately suspicious because land use changes due to agriculture and urbanization have severely altered Florida's hydrology and habitat and for decades disappearing mangroves have been a growing concern amongst conservationists. Nonetheless the authors claimed the spread of new mangroves were "uncorrelated with changes in mean annual temperature, mean annual precipitation, and  land use."
---
Growing up near mangroves that were later ripped out for construction in Tampa in the 60s, I remember the worry about the disappearance and related conservation of mangroves even back then.  I seriously doubt any mangrove growth in Florida hasn't been managed. In upper Tampa Bay, it had a lot to do with effluent control.

Personally, I don't have a clue whether mangroves are moving up the coast in Florida.  I do remember skating across the frost in my elementary school recess yard. Maybe it doesn't freeze any longer in Florida.
 
2014-01-02 12:31:55 PM  

YoungLochinvar: Well, Anthony Watts *is* one of the most ignorant climate bloggers out there, so...     yeah.

/Funny how Watts was totally behind the Mueller study right until it confirmed everything we already knew...


Well his argument is one of the dumbest I've ever read. Mangrove restoration projects go on all the time; they are a protected and very valuable species.

But that doesn't explain them migrating north. You can plant mangroves all over the Panhandle of Florida and they won't grow.

It's really stunning how some people would rather cling to ignorance than learn some basic science.
 
2014-01-02 12:35:12 PM  
In other news, the naked mole rat was proclaimed "Vertebrate of the Year" by Science Magazine, for its value in cancer research.  I heard it on NPR!  Why has there not been a FARK thread about this?

/or did I miss it
 
2014-01-02 12:49:32 PM  

Confabulat: YoungLochinvar: Well, Anthony Watts *is* one of the most ignorant climate bloggers out there, so...     yeah.

/Funny how Watts was totally behind the Mueller study right until it confirmed everything we already knew...

Well his argument is one of the dumbest I've ever read. Mangrove restoration projects go on all the time; they are a protected and very valuable species.

But that doesn't explain them migrating north. You can plant mangroves all over the Panhandle of Florida and they won't grow.

It's really stunning how some people would rather cling to ignorance than learn some basic science.


When you're already convinced you're right, you'll likely not try all that hard to see if you're actually wrong, I'd guess.
 
2014-01-02 12:54:39 PM  

Confabulat: WelldeadLink: Actually, humans planted mangroves further north, which proves that mangroves are moving further north.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/01/another-conservation-success-s to ry-hijacked-by-climate-alarmists/

You can plant all the mangroves you want, but when it gets cold, they die. It's as simple as that. That's why they disappear the more north you go in Florida. The mangrove seeds still land on the shore, just like they do a bit more south, but they can't survive so they are replaced by salt marsh.

That's science. I don't know why some people insist on clinging to tomfoolery like your link to attempt to prove a point. It only makes you look really ignorant.


You can plant all the mangroves you want, but when researchers count them before they die off, should they?
 
2014-01-02 12:59:33 PM  

WelldeadLink: You can plant all the mangroves you want, but when researchers count them before they die off, should they?


Mangroves are not exactly fast-growing trees, and 30 years is a pretty acceptable time frame to interpret satellite imagery. So you're saying we should just wait till the next deep freeze, and then get to work?
 
2014-01-02 01:01:10 PM  
Isn't there some kind of ointment we could apply to stop it?
 
2014-01-02 02:14:56 PM  

Confabulat: WelldeadLink: You can plant all the mangroves you want, but when researchers count them before they die off, should they?

Mangroves are not exactly fast-growing trees, and 30 years is a pretty acceptable time frame to interpret satellite imagery. So you're saying we should just wait till the next deep freeze, and then get to work?


Should we count the alligators which were found in Wisconsin this year before the deep freeze?
 
2014-01-02 02:18:56 PM  
Those of you who want to read the actual study can find it here:
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/12/26/1315800111.full.pdf+htm l

You'll see that Indian River is indeed mentioned. Only the east coast of Florida was studied, not the panhandle, as far north as St. Augustine.
 
2014-01-02 02:20:20 PM  

WelldeadLink: Confabulat: WelldeadLink: You can plant all the mangroves you want, but when researchers count them before they die off, should they?

Mangroves are not exactly fast-growing trees, and 30 years is a pretty acceptable time frame to interpret satellite imagery. So you're saying we should just wait till the next deep freeze, and then get to work?

Should we count the alligators which were found in Wisconsin this year before the deep freeze?


Someone should use you for their PhD thesis research.  I would love to know what combination of genetics and experiences would cause someone to think that is a valid analogy.

/The fringes of bell shaped curves fascinate me.
//And you're definitely several standard deviations into derp territory.
 
2014-01-02 02:34:58 PM  

WelldeadLink: Confabulat: WelldeadLink: You can plant all the mangroves you want, but when researchers count them before they die off, should they?

Mangroves are not exactly fast-growing trees, and 30 years is a pretty acceptable time frame to interpret satellite imagery. So you're saying we should just wait till the next deep freeze, and then get to work?

Should we count the alligators which were found in Wisconsin this year before the deep freeze?


That sounds like the sort of science, you'd embrace, yes.

And I mentioned the Panhandle because of latitude, while you seem to not understand that concept very well at all.
 
2014-01-02 02:36:47 PM  

WelldeadLink: Those of you who want to read the actual study can find it here:
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/12/26/1315800111.full.pdf+htm l

You'll see that Indian River is indeed mentioned. Only the east coast of Florida was studied, not the panhandle, as far north as St. Augustine.


And yes the Indian River is mentioned. The dimwit that is trying to debunk the study is saying "well lots of things have changed in Florida concerning land use." At no point does he direct anything about the Indian River Basin over the past 30 years. Mangroves have been a protected species that long, you know. Even the DOT can't rip them up.
 
2014-01-02 02:38:12 PM  
This is how ignorant people try to debunk science. They stream together words that appear to make sense, and internet crusaders like <b>WelldeadLink</b> parrot them, because they know nothing about the actual topic at hand but it makes them feel better about their worldview if they aren't challenged to learn.
 
2014-01-02 03:13:39 PM  

Pants full of macaroni!!: [i1.ytimg.com image 480x360]

Amused.


Oh dammit. Beat me to it, but it's awesome.
 
2014-01-02 03:15:22 PM  
Mangroves are not very tasty, so I am not sure what anyone is going to do with them up north.
 
2014-01-02 03:47:45 PM  
This is one of the worst excuses for science I have ever seen. I grew up in North Florida during the 60's and 70's and there were black mangrove as far north as Jacksonville.

The mere fact that the study mentions the Indian River Lagoon is actually pretty damning in itself. There were over 40,000 acres of mangrove habitat destroyed before 1970, those same wetlands were restored by 1990. Coincidentally the vast amount of mangrove expansion is in the restored wetlands.

The study is junk because its data begins immediately after the destruction of 75% of the mangrove habitat in Indian River Lagoon and then purports to establish that lack of freezing temperatures caused the mangrove expansion back into its natural habitat after the wetlands were restored. Nevermind the study conveniently ignores the entire west coast of Florida as well as the panhandle, where there are black mangrove populations that have been thriving for hundreds of years.
 
2014-01-02 03:49:20 PM  
Solution: invent infertile womangrove swamps to lessen the life expectancy of mangrove swamps.
 
2014-01-02 03:55:14 PM  

Confabulat: This is how ignorant people try to debunk science. They stream together words that appear to make sense, and internet crusaders like <b>WelldeadLink</b> parrot them, because they know nothing about the actual topic at hand but it makes them feel better about their worldview if they aren't challenged to learn.


Ignorant people accept studies as fact without examining the facts themselves. This study is junk because it purports to claim that 40,000 acres of mangrove reforestation was the result of fewer cold days, when it can be shown to be a direct result of the restoration of 40,000 acres of reclaimed wetlands. interestingly enough, all of the mangrove "expansion" was in areas where mangrove had been for centuries and were only absent due to destruction of habitat.
 
2014-01-02 03:56:39 PM  
Global Warming is both killing and and growing the Mangroves?

Global Warming the cause and solution to all our problems.

http://wwf.panda.org/about_our_earth/blue_planet/coasts/mangroves/man g rove_threats
 
2014-01-02 04:15:25 PM  

unreasonable ass: Confabulat: This is how ignorant people try to debunk science. They stream together words that appear to make sense, and internet crusaders like <b>WelldeadLink</b> parrot them, because they know nothing about the actual topic at hand but it makes them feel better about their worldview if they aren't challenged to learn.

Ignorant people accept studies as fact without examining the facts themselves. This study is junk because it purports to claim that 40,000 acres of mangrove reforestation was the result of fewer cold days, when it can be shown to be a direct result of the restoration of 40,000 acres of reclaimed wetlands. interestingly enough, all of the mangrove "expansion" was in areas where mangrove had been for centuries and were only absent due to destruction of habitat.


You're claiming we restored  40,000 acres of mangroves in 20 years? Wow, damn! We are amazing!

No one denies that black mangroves can reach into the Panhandle and Jacksonville. Do you know how mangroves spread? Their seedpods float. They are everywhere. Their limit to spread is almost entirely based on climate, unless you're saying there's been no suitable mangrove habitat on the East Coast for 30 years, which is ridiculous.

And your anecdotal evidence is embarrassing to listen to. I have a degree in environmental science from USF, I used to be an environmental scientist for HDR, I grew up all over Florida, and I was a DOT inspector for environmental issues for years, but I'd never pull that bullshiat out unless some dumbass whines "But I grew up in Florida in the 70s!" like that means anything to anyone in 2014.
 
2014-01-02 04:17:40 PM  
It's always some idiot who thinks the scientists didn't think of the stuff he did, while they not only thought about it, they assumed their readers were smart enough to not have to have it explained to them.
 
2014-01-02 04:28:33 PM  
Jordy Verrill - does NOT approve of this.  http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0015393/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_17
 
2014-01-02 04:37:39 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2014-01-02 04:44:08 PM  

Confabulat: unreasonable ass: Confabulat: This is how ignorant people try to debunk science. They stream together words that appear to make sense, and internet crusaders like <b>WelldeadLink</b> parrot them, because they know nothing about the actual topic at hand but it makes them feel better about their worldview if they aren't challenged to learn.

Ignorant people accept studies as fact without examining the facts themselves. This study is junk because it purports to claim that 40,000 acres of mangrove reforestation was the result of fewer cold days, when it can be shown to be a direct result of the restoration of 40,000 acres of reclaimed wetlands. interestingly enough, all of the mangrove "expansion" was in areas where mangrove had been for centuries and were only absent due to destruction of habitat.

You're claiming we restored  40,000 acres of mangroves in 20 years? Wow, damn! We are amazing!

No one denies that black mangroves can reach into the Panhandle and Jacksonville. Do you know how mangroves spread? Their seedpods float. They are everywhere. Their limit to spread is almost entirely based on climate, unless you're saying there's been no suitable mangrove habitat on the East Coast for 30 years, which is ridiculous.

And your anecdotal evidence is embarrassing to listen to. I have a degree in environmental science from USF, I used to be an environmental scientist for HDR, I grew up all over Florida, and I was a DOT inspector for environmental issues for years, but I'd never pull that bullshiat out unless some dumbass whines "But I grew up in Florida in the 70s!" like that means anything to anyone in 2014.


No, I am claiming that 40,000 acres in one habitat locale were destroyed in the 50's and 60's and that by 1990, the dikes had been removed and extensive re-population efforts have been taken in the subsequent years .. which coincidentally continue on a regular basis, only now the re-establishment of mangrove is directly mostly to the more difficult areas deemed "high wave areas".

Also, it isn't anecdotal evidence that mangrove, specifically black mangrove, exist and thrive in north Florida and the panhandle and have for years, and while my first hand experience might be easily dismissed as such, the underlying data cannot.

Remember that the plural of anecdote is data.
 
2014-01-02 04:49:12 PM  

unreasonable ass: Also, it isn't anecdotal evidence that mangrove, specifically black mangrove, exist and thrive in north Florida and the panhandle and have for years, and while my first hand experience might be easily dismissed as such, the underlying data cannot.


It's also not hidden from the scientific literature. Only you are saying that black mangroves are some secret up there. Look in any book about mangroves and it's right there.

None of this refutes the study at all, and I wonder why you even tried to bring it up. Again, the scientists know more than you. Cause they read the books already.
 
2014-01-02 04:55:52 PM  
I swear, some of you guys should get into science! You know how to do their jobs WAY better than they do! Why aren't you doing it?

Oh right, cause you would either just read a website or brag about your childhood in the 1970s. That's all you need!
 
2014-01-02 04:59:29 PM  
Oh and if you want anecdotal evidence, as I've lived in Florida for 40 years, you better believe winters have been much warmer in the past 15 years than they ever were when I was a kid.

But that's bullshiat science so only a dumbass would even try to point that out.
 
2014-01-02 05:06:21 PM  

mainstreet62: Solution: invent infertile womangrove swamps to lessen the life expectancy of mangrove swamps.


Deny them your essence, Mangrove. Have you any idea what the homosexuals are doing to the groundwater?
 
2014-01-02 05:26:02 PM  

Confabulat: Oh and if you want anecdotal evidence, as I've lived in Florida for 40 years, you better believe winters have been much warmer in the past 15 years than they ever were when I was a kid.

But that's bullshiat science so only a dumbass would even try to point that out.


Here, try this: What was the growing season for all plants in the lower 48 states of America in 1960. Compare that to the growing season of all plants in the lower 48 states of America in 2013.  Notice the growing season has lengthened in almost every area of the 48 states, and declare that this is the result of global warming.  Success!! You have amazingly done over all 48 states what this study did for a much smaller part of that land mass.

What is the difference here?  Someone got to justify studying the recovery of mangrove AND he managed to attach it to something that is popular enough to award him additional funds for further study!  In other words, this isn't a significant finding, in my humble opinion.  Perhaps the next study will be for the manatee, and how they're spreading and expected in the Schuylkill River by 2020. It's meaningless outside a very small community and is only news because someone with an agenda made it news -- in my opinion.
 
2014-01-02 05:37:26 PM  
wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com
What warming?  You see that massive pile of bullshiat that can't even hindcast vs the satellite and balloon data?    2011 was the same temp at 1976 on balloon readings.  WHERE'S THE farkING WARMING NOW, biatchES?
 
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