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(The New York Times)   It's begun. Millions of Americans are getting insurance and there's nothing anyone can do about it   ( nytimes.com) divider line
    More: Spiffy  
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2698 clicks; posted to Politics » on 01 Jan 2014 at 11:19 AM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-01 07:00:26 PM  
 
2014-01-01 07:10:18 PM  

Ishidan: Bungles: Hello, I'm British.

My health insurance is :Go to hospital. Tell them your name (or don't). Get treated.

My expenses: Maybe have to pay for coffee if I'm an out-patient.

It's great.


/sorry, just had to stick it in there.

How's the dental plan?
/just had to stick that in there
//it's funny cause I'm pretty sure most Americans don't have dental insurance either...I do but it covers less than half...


Dental is the sole service that is essentially quasi privatized in the UK..... worked brilliantly! The NHS Dental is not of a scale designed for an entire population.
 
2014-01-01 07:16:18 PM  

Aquapope: flondrix: jjorsett: This applies in both directions, women get birth coverage, men get boner pills for example.

As opposed to pre-ACA, when men got boner pills but women didn't get birth coverage.  Funny how that works.

Viagra treats a physical, medical problem - ED.  Birth control doesn't.  That's the rationale, I think, behind not covering BC.  Plus, the religious right didn't think of conception as anything but a miracle, so why should you be able to.


Pregnancy causes very real health complications for women.  Controlling and spacing pregnancies is a real health need for women.  Just because there wasn't a way to do that before the 20th century doesn't make it any less of a need.  Men lived without boner pills until just recently too.

One could argue that ED is not a real medical problem either.  People don't die from lack of boners.
 
2014-01-01 07:25:50 PM  

Farnn: JolobinSmokin: Farnn: Great, people have health care, and the insurance companies are making billions off this law because they had a big hand in writing it.  And the people who actually wrote it are making millions because only they can decipher it for everyone else.  And people are forced to get coverage for more than they need/want.  Young people shouldn't need much more than catastrophic coverage with a high deductible.  Older people who generally need more health care also tend to have more money to afford higher premiums.  All these young people who have championed health care for all have gotten screwed and they don't even realize it.

Because we will never get old, right?

Way to think ahead.

My 54 year old uncle got a bronze plan for $289/ month and a $5600 ded.  No subsidy, how awful.

So the 27 year old who makes 40k a year should be helping to subsidize your uncle?  Rates should go up as you age because the amount of care you need goes up.   And you share the risk and burden with everyone else in your age group.  Young people have enough costs these days with student debt and a stagnant economy, why not allow to them to maybe save a bit for retirement because it's doubtful Social Security will be around by the time they retire.


Do you understand how insurance works? How it has ALWAYS worked? It's not as if they bank your premiums to pay for your future claims; the healthy people pay for the sick people. When (not if, cause they use statisticals) YOU get sick, the healthy will pay for you. That's why your payments now go to the woman in Minneapolis with an ectopic pregnancy (even if you are a man), or the guy in Rochester with prostate cancer (even if you're a woman).

Oh, also, your rate is based on your age as well as other issues.
/ Bet you didn't know that.
//How can people with no concept of the issues have such heart-felt opinions?
///What a shame that despite the Internet, people still go to bed stupid
 
2014-01-01 07:45:16 PM  

evilmrsock: RoyBatty:What I am saying is there seems to be little difference between a policy with a $5,000 deductible and a catastrophic policy with much lower monthly payments and a $10,000 deductible

This site tries to spell out the differences between Bronze and Catastrophic but I'm a little hazy on the Actuarial definition, which basically reading to me that the "deductible" on a Bronze isn't the harsh out of pocket limit that the "catastrophic" is and that you're thinking. But the main difference is that the Bronze plan qualifies for the up-front tax credit for 45k single earners or less, to eat those premium increases up front for people who have the cost issues with it compared to catastrophic.

"Bronze plans will have an "actuarial value" of 60 percent, meaning they will cover 60 percent of all health care costs for the average person. " "Covers 60 percent of health care costs for the average person, and specified preventive services at no cost." "actual deductibles are likely to be significantly lower because plans must cover 60 percent of health care costs for the average person."

The catastrophic plan is the $6k and change of real out-of-pocket deductible like you're thinking. I don't understand the exacts of this bronze 60% nonsense, but it doesn't seem to be on par.


Thanks, I appreciate that, and I won't argue against actuarial data, just repeat my personal experience: I either spend basically nothing during the year or spend a lifetime's of savings, and with previous insurance with either no deductibles or $2K deductibles, a $5K deductible seems unreasonable and high and doesn't justify the monthly payment (in addition to probably copays.)

I think that would be true for me regardless of my income level though I appreciate at lower income levels tax subsidy's take much of the monthly payment goes away.

I guess it just doesn't seem like much of a group plan discount compared to far better group plans I have enjoyed and used.
 
2014-01-01 07:53:27 PM  

SauronWasFramed: So we have 3 million that have signed up.

But there were 15 million that were uninsured and another 5 million that lost their policies because they didn't include free birth control (even if you are a post menopausal woman) or maternity care (for men).

In other words we are whooping it up because there are 2 million less insured.


/ if you can't afford the premiums, how will you pay the deductibles?

//  my bronze policy quote:$940 a month with a $12600 deductible. No subsidy. Not affordable


I just looked up bronze policies in my area. Since I don't know your age, income, or location, I checked a few different ages...80, 60, and 40. Here are the most and least expensive options, with no subsidies included...

Most Expensive
Bronze $10 Copay POS Plan  by CoventryOne (BronzePOS)
Monthly Premium:  $618.57 for age 80, $559.60 for age 60, $263.51 for age 40
Deductible:  $5,600 / person,$11,200 / family
Out of Pocket Max:$6,350 / person,$12,700 / family

Least Expensive
Blue Advantage Bronze 5000  by Blue Cross and Blue Shield of North Carolina (BronzePPO)
Monthly Premium:  $453.80 for age 80, $511.04 for age 60, $240.65 for age 40
Deductible:$5,000 / person,$10,000 / family
Out of Pocket Max:$6,350 / person,$12,700 / family

I checked a few other states as well. Of all those I checked, the "bottom-end" Bronze plan was cheaper than in NC, so unless you provide more info, shenanigans. The only scenario I could come up with to come close to your prices was a 42-year old married couple with three teenagers, or an old couple who are  56 and 55 years old.
 
2014-01-01 08:10:36 PM  

Fart_Machine: Which had nothing to do with the ACA but because the insurance companies decided to do so. Stop lying.


Debunking your spin isn't lying. The mandates under the law made it unprofitable for them in some markets so they left. You're like a frat boy that drives a woman into the middle of nowhere and then tell her she's "free" to walk home or she can earn a ride back to town... it's her choice.

fatassbastard: Until you provide some sort of verifiable data from an original source, you're not doing anything but bleating out FUD.

Here are two links. Yeah, yeah... biatch about the "liberal" sources... try RTFAs then get back to me.


If you bothered to read your links it'd be clear it's simply putting lipstick on a pig. It doesn't rebut the cancellations. It just spins it away that they were crappy plans (those grapes were sour anyway!) even though many people liked their plans. Why do you think the laws popularity is sinking? Propaganda? The same propganda arguments have been going on for years. It's the effects people are seeing that is why they're getting pissed.

fatassbastard: Finally, bear in mind that, at least in 2009, over a million people filed bankruptcy due to medical bills who had insurance.


I get a chuckle when people cite that study. It uses in it's consideration if any medical bills were discharged during a bankruptcy filing. So someone with $500 in medical bills went just as bankrupt from medical costs as someone with $50,000.

Spin all you like, people hate the implementation of this law and it's not because the GOP told them to do so.

theknuckler_33: By that definition, tens, if not hundreds, of millions of Americans lose their insurance every year when their employers negotiate the new plan year. That's a stupid definition to use in a discussion about how many people HAVE or DON'T HAVE health insurance since that is what the ACA is all about.



Haha! You're lying. That's a curious tactic for you to take. It's like you took Victory by Definition and Strawman and forced them into a civil union.
 
2014-01-01 08:11:30 PM  

Bungles: Hello, I'm British.

My health insurance is :Go to hospital. Tell them your name (or don't). Get treated.

My expenses: Maybe have to pay for coffee if I'm an out-patient.

It's great.


/sorry, just had to stick it in there.


Canadian single payer gave us Ted Cruz. No thanks.
 
2014-01-01 08:40:35 PM  

piermont: bizzwire: Farnn: JolobinSmokin: Farnn: Great, people have health care, and the insurance companies are making billions off this law because they had a big hand in writing it.  And the people who actually wrote it are making millions because only they can decipher it for everyone else.  And people are forced to get coverage for more than they need/want.  Young people shouldn't need much more than catastrophic coverage with a high deductible.  Older people who generally need more health care also tend to have more money to afford higher premiums.  All these young people who have championed health care for all have gotten screwed and they don't even realize it.

Because we will never get old, right?

Way to think ahead.

My 54 year old uncle got a bronze plan for $289/ month and a $5600 ded.  No subsidy, how awful.

So the 27 year old who makes 40k a year should be helping to subsidize your uncle?  Rates should go up as you age because the amount of care you need goes up.   And you share the risk and burden with everyone else in your age group.  Young people have enough costs these days with student debt and a stagnant economy, why not allow to them to maybe save a bit for retirement because it's doubtful Social Security will be around by the time they retire.

Do you understand how insurance works? How it has ALWAYS worked? It's not as if they bank your premiums to pay for your future claims; the healthy people pay for the sick people. When (not if, cause they use statisticals) YOU get sick, the healthy will pay for you. That's why your payments now go to the woman in Minneapolis with an ectopic pregnancy (even if you are a man), or the guy in Rochester with prostate cancer (even if you're a woman).

Oh, also, your rate is based on your age as well as other issues.
/ Bet you didn't know that.
//How can people with no concept of the issues have such heart-felt opinions?
///What a shame that despite the Internet, people still go to bed stupid


if what you say were as true as you want it to be, your health insurance premiums would be based on whether that woman in Minneapolis smokes, not whether you do. In reality, in the individual markets, your health insurance is a bet by the insurance company that you cost them less than they have to pay out for your care. Smoking, obesity, etc all contribute towards your premiums. When participating in a group policy, the insurance company is betting that the premiums of the group will exceed the cost of their care and the premiums are set at levels to make that statistically probable.


Agreed. That's what I meant when I said "your rate is based on your age and other issues," which also applies to your hypothetical woman in Minneapolis who smokes.

I think we're in agreement here.
 
2014-01-01 08:51:15 PM  

dopirt: OneBrightMonkey: SauronWasFramed: So we have 3 million that have signed up.

But there were 15 million that were uninsured and another 5 million that lost their policies because they didn't include free birth control (even if you are a post menopausal woman) or maternity care (for men).

In other words we are whooping it up because there are 2 million less insured.


/ if you can't afford the premiums, how will you pay the deductibles?

//  my bronze policy quote:$940 a month with a $12600 deductible. No subsidy. Not affordable

The Kaiser calculator (http://kff.org/interactive/subsidy-calculator/) says you can get a Silver plan for your family, which after subsidies comes to $5,700 per year. I used 60K in annual income because I don't expect anyone to post their income in a public space.

If you make more than 60K a year in MS, then you can certainly afford $470 a month (according to Kaiser) to cover two 50+ year olds and a 19 year old. 60K there is like 160K in NY.

Did you call the help number and get a quote from an actual human? Maybe you have bad info?

He lives in Mississippi, which has all kinds of messed up issue with insurance.

Here's an article in the Mississippi Business Journal that goes into some detail.  Aparently, Blue Cross/Blue Shield was the only insurance in Miss., and had been exercising it's pimp hand recently.  In setting up it's marketplace, Mississippi found that no insurance companies wanted to participate in 36 of her counties, it took the state agreeing to a base rate of $300/mo for a 30 yo non smoker, with a 3x multiplier for age to get Humana and Magnolia to participate. This is where his $940/mo comes from.  Next year, or the year after, Mississippians may be about to get Multi-state plan with much better premium rates.


Thanks for the article. I've been hearing quite a bit that the least populated states are seeking the most pronounced sticker shock due to lack of competition amongst providers.

Wouldn't it be one the great ironies of history if all the small states like Vermont and Mississippi pooled their residents to increase purchasing power on each's collective exchanges - a confederacy if you will.

This is exactly why each small state exchange needed to have a public option alternative. I hold out hope that such as option will start being introduced by state legislatures.
 
2014-01-01 08:54:59 PM  

piermont: if what you say were as true as you want it to be, your health insurance premiums would be based on whether that woman in Minneapolis smokes, not whether you do. In reality, in the individual markets, your health insurance is a bet by the insurance company that you cost them less than they have to pay out for your care. Smoking, obesity, etc all contribute towards your premiums. When participating in a group policy, the insurance company is betting that the premiums of the group will exceed the cost of their care and the premiums are set at levels to make that statistically probable.


Wow SkullKrusher you are having a busy day with your ALT account being in both these threads.
 
2014-01-01 08:57:29 PM  

Mrbogey: theknuckler_33: By that definition, tens, if not hundreds, of millions of Americans lose their insurance every year when their employers negotiate the new plan year. That's a stupid definition to use in a discussion about how many people HAVE or DON'T HAVE health insurance since that is what the ACA is all about.


Haha! You're lying.


About what?
 
2014-01-01 09:16:10 PM  

itsdan: SauronWasFramed: But there were 15 million that were uninsured and another 5 million that lost their policies because they didn't include free birth control (even if you are a post menopausal woman) or maternity care (for men).

And if you're a young person it covers arthritis even if you aren't likely to have it for decades, that's how insurance works. My insurance covers cancer treatment even if I don't currently have cancer. My car insurance covers accidents even if I'm not currently in an accident.


Finally I will have uterus insurance in the event I grow a uterus. Worth every penny.
 
2014-01-01 09:34:40 PM  

jigger: Finally I will have uterus insurance in the event I grow a uterus. Worth every penny.


Somewhere a woman has to pay for prostate insurance. See how pooling works?
 
2014-01-01 09:56:29 PM  

Mrbogey: Debunking your spin isn't lying. The mandates under the law made it unprofitable for them in some markets so they left.


Um no, considering that's what the Insurance Commissioner of California stated was the reason for them leaving which was why it was one state and nothing on the national level. Debunking involves showing proof not just saying "nuh uh".

Mrbogey: You're like a frat boy that drives a woman into the middle of nowhere and then tell her she's "free" to walk home or she can earn a ride back to town... it's her choice.


No, it's nothing like that but let me guess.  You were that frat boy weren't you?  Do you still drug your "dates"?
 
2014-01-01 10:11:54 PM  
img42.imageshack.usView Full Size
 
2014-01-01 10:41:35 PM  

SauronWasFramed: So we have 3 million that have signed up.

But there were 15 million that were uninsured and another 5 million that lost their policies because they didn't include free birth control (even if you are a post menopausal woman) or maternity care (for men).

In other words we are whooping it up because there are 2 million less insured.


/ if you can't afford the premiums, how will you pay the deductibles?

//  my bronze policy quote:$940 a month with a $12600 deductible. No subsidy. Not affordable


stop this thruthtelling immediately, sir! Don't you realize the self proclaimed experts on what is best for you and me NEED to live in an enchanted fairy tale wonderland? So take your math and expedient and accurate rejection of more people now having affordable insurance than before and cram it.
 
2014-01-01 10:44:36 PM  

Mrbogey: Always talk about the success of a failure in the ephemeral. Never allow the facts to be introduced because nothing can be defeated if kept nebulous and theoretical.


whoa. again, allow me to remind you that you are upsetting people that don't get math and think poor people are poor because rich people are rich.
 
2014-01-01 11:10:08 PM  
SauronWasFramed:
//  my bronze policy quote:$940 a month with a $12600 deductible. No subsidy. Not affordable

yeah so "No subsidy. Not affordable ", i blame you for voting for republicans in your state who decided not to chip in for your subsidy so as to poison you against obama.
 
2014-01-01 11:14:29 PM  

Mr.Tangent: Welcome to the club comrades.

From Socialist Canuckistan.


Shoes for Industry, Fellow Worker.
 
2014-01-01 11:23:06 PM  
Late to the thread, here:

Does anyone remember FOX et. al. saying that doctors were going to stop practicing because of Obamacare?

I wonder how many doctors have quit as a result of gaining more patients...
 
2014-01-01 11:27:38 PM  
Heh.

Just had a side add here on Fark for "Keeping Obamacare out of Texas."  I wonder if the makers of it are dumb enough to think that's possible or are just hoping that people who click on it are.
 
2014-01-01 11:28:10 PM  
The other is redacted, I try for perfection...

img41.imageshack.usView Full Size
 
x23
2014-01-01 11:41:25 PM  

timujin: Aquapope: Thankfully, some of us are still unable to partake of the ebil insurance because we live in states that didn't expand medicare/medicaid.  Thanks Kansas GOP for keeping me safe from affordable healthcare!

Move to a better state.



no no no. that line of reasoning only applies if you dislike abortion restrictions or bans on gay marriage. then it is easy to just pick up and move.

but if it is gun control or obamacare related... no one should EVER be forced to move and it should be fixed federally. because of... uh... states rights and furthermore therefore socialism comma.
 
x23
2014-01-01 11:42:33 PM  

tjfly: / my bronze policy quote:$940 a month with a $12600 deductible. No subsidy. Not affordable

stop this thruthtelling immediately, sir! Don't you realize the self proclaimed experts on what is best for you and me NEED to live in an enchanted fairy tale wonderland? So take your math and expedient and accurate rejection of more people now having affordable insurance than before and cram it.



someone didn't read the whole thread. i wonder who that could be. that must be embarrassing.
 
2014-01-01 11:43:09 PM  

Stoker: The other is redacted, I try for perfection...

[img41.imageshack.us image 650x497]


Which is funny, because for all the Sturm und Drang about how terrible this bill is, essentially, the insurance industry is quibbling on percentage points of profit, and risking Americans to question if we really need them at all...
 
2014-01-01 11:51:57 PM  

Stoker: The other is redacted, I try for perfection...

[img41.imageshack.us image 650x497]


You should get together with the other guy who says that insurance companies are dropping people and leaving the states because of the ACA.
 
2014-01-01 11:55:43 PM  
OneBrightMonkey:

Thanks for the article. I've been hearing quite a bit that the least populated states are seeking the most pronounced sticker shock due to lack of competition amongst providers.
Wouldn't it be one the great ironies of history if all the small states like Vermont and Mississippi pooled their residents to increase purchasing power on each's collective exchanges - a confederacy if you will.
This is exactly why each small state exchange needed to have a public option alternative. I hold out hope that such as option will start being introduced by state legislatures.

 
Vermont has already made moves in that direction.  The goal is universal health care for all residents by 2017.
 
2014-01-02 12:53:57 AM  
Arachnophobe: Endometriosis and ovarian cysts aren't physical, medical problems?

Well, if you're going to get all liberal and think of women as people...
 
2014-01-02 02:00:32 AM  

Elfich: Serious Black: TV's Vinnie: FlashHarry: remember: to republicans, this is literally worse than hitler, stalin and al qaeda combined.

You forgot to add Sauron, Voldemort, and Davros as well.

I haven't been able to break out this overkill of a list in awhile...

Authoritarian Collectivist Dictator-for-life and PresiDebt BaReefer HUSSEIN Fartbama al-Chicago is more evil than the combined evil of Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, Vladmir Lenin, Josef Stalin, Josef Mengele, Vlad the Impaler, Emperor Hirohito, Ivan the Terrible, King Leopold II, Idi Amin, the Ayatollah Khomeini, Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden, Attila the Hun, Elizabeth Bathory, Irma Grese, Queen Isabella, Timothy McVeigh, James Holmes, Anders Breivik, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, the Zodiac Killer, Jeffrey Dahmer, Albert Fish, Darth Vader, Emperor Palpatine, Lord Voldemort, Sauron, Hannibal Lecter, Vito and Michael Corleone, Nurse Ratched, Joffrey Baratheon, Aerys Targaryan, Magneto, Lex Luthor, the Joker, Galactus, Thanos, Davros, the Master, Rassilon, Cthulhu, Beelzebub, and Satan all tetrated to the hyperpower of Graham's number.

Where are the Kingpin, Doctor Doom, Arioch and Torak?


Torak was a meany. I wonder what the Orb would do to Obama..
 
2014-01-02 02:01:26 AM  
Jgok:
Most Expensive
Bronze $10 Copay POS Plan  by CoventryOne (BronzePOS)


I can't be the only person misreading that acronym.
It means "point of service"?  Yeahhh, sure it does, buddy...
 
2014-01-02 11:17:45 AM  

Fart_Machine: Stoker: The other is redacted, I try for perfection...

[img41.imageshack.us image 650x497]

You should get together with the other guy who says that insurance companies are dropping people and leaving the states because of the ACA.

-=-
It's a game they play to get themselves better premiums and higher deductibles. They will win some profitable compromise in the end.
 
2014-01-02 12:09:04 PM  
Too bad Obama Care does little to actually improve the medical care in this country.  Doesn't add one doctor or nurse just more adds people into the middleman scam known insurance.
 
2014-01-02 12:43:48 PM  

flynn80: Too bad Obama Care does little to actually improve the medical care in this country.  Doesn't add one doctor or nurse just more adds people into the middleman scam known insurance.


It's too bad that just by passing a bill in congress we cannot cure cancer.

Even if we could, I suppose the Republicans would filibuster it.
 
2014-01-02 08:14:33 PM  

flynn80: Too bad Obama Care does little to actually improve the medical care in this country.  Doesn't add one doctor or nurse just more adds people into the middleman scam known insurance.


You realize that many people do not get any preventative care or followup care due to lack of insurance, right.
 
2014-01-02 08:49:12 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: flynn80: Too bad Obama Care does little to actually improve the medical care in this country.  Doesn't add one doctor or nurse just more adds people into the middleman scam known insurance.

You realize that many people do not get any preventative care or followup care due to lack of insurance, right.


I think our Beamish Poster means is that ObamaCare doesn't immediately refit the entire industry with Fallout New Vegas AutoDocs from the Big MT, and thus without those unit being crated to every hospital and doctor's office, he has NOT automated the process to cut out that pesky "middleman" of they physician with the "healing force" that those units tap into, much like Barry Allen taps into the Speed Force, and thus put us behind the Red Chinese who are using that technology, along with their Stealth Armor and insidious sleeper agents slipped into our soft drink factories. Thus, Obama is a failure, and should be immediately put down, and a general election held immediately to choose a leader who WILL approve such legislation...
 
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