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(The Raw Story)   You're an internationally renowned flautist from Canada who lovingly crafts your flutes by hand. U.S. Customs officials: These are made of wood, which makes them agricultural products and therefore must be destroyed   (rawstory.com) divider line 318
    More: Asinine, U.S. Customs, customs officer, Measuring instrument, virtuoso, Canadian citizen, disc injury, John F. Kennedy International Airport  
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14317 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Jan 2014 at 11:20 AM (38 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-01 03:36:32 PM

whiterrabbit: It does appear that the TSA agents where correct.  Agricultural products must be destroyed.....if the person who wishes to fly is a p*ssy and is too dumb to mail his precious goods.  He DID have options.   TSA is right about some things...stop the witch hunt.


Which reminds me.  Considering that they're destroying everything made of wood, she's lucky they didn't accuse her of witchcraft.
 
2014-01-01 03:52:32 PM
I'm too lazy to make a good flatulist/fart joke today.
 
2014-01-01 03:58:07 PM
It is illegal to destroy ANYTHING prior to giving notice to the property owner... that and it is illegal to just randomly destroy agricultural products to begin with,  just throwing fruits on the ground and stomping on them would release the bugs inside.   There are procedures for destruction of property and "stomping on it" is NEVER one.

If they'd stomped on a Strad there would be a massive shiatstorm.  It's an agricultural product too!
 
2014-01-01 03:58:39 PM

smerfnablin: I was outraged until I saw the "Islamic scholar" part

Btw, why saw 10 in a million instead of 1 in 100,00


Which article are you commenting on?
 
2014-01-01 04:02:04 PM

95BV5: Speaking as a former customs inspector, the wood must be sealed airtight, with paint, laquer, or varnish before importation. The purpose is to kill larvae in the wood.


Lacquer? I hardly knew her!
 
2014-01-01 04:02:31 PM

sleeps in trees: centrifugal bumblepuppy:

That pic is surprisingly accurate. At least where I lived in CO.


Really?  While Coloradans love guns, it tends to be one of the least fat states in the union.
 
2014-01-01 04:05:09 PM

edmo: So much for traveling with my guitar.

Seriously, I'm with the "These guys are assholes" crowd here and you "it's the law" types should just go back to your bedrooms and let the NSA continue filming you or whatever.


I have been told that if you think American customs officials are dicks, you should try bringing a guitar from Ireland to the UK sometime.
 
2014-01-01 04:08:10 PM

prjindigo: It is illegal to destroy ANYTHING prior to giving notice to the property owner... that and it is illegal to just randomly destroy agricultural products to begin with,  just throwing fruits on the ground and stomping on them would release the bugs inside.   There are procedures for destruction of property and "stomping on it" is NEVER one.

If they'd stomped on a Strad there would be a massive shiatstorm.  It's an agricultural product too!


Christ, do you have any idea how stupid you sound? There's just... nothing correct about what you're writing. At all.
 
2014-01-01 04:13:19 PM

g4lt: FTFA "The ney flute could be made from bamboo, is that agricultural?".  Actually, yes http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/improvement/lawn-garden/4323342 .  The thing is, right then and there the reader should realize that there's more to this story than meets the eye (that, and the story is actually a press release from the alleged victim, no axe to grind there, amirite?).  First, misrepresenting bamboo as non-agricultural raises a BIG flag: dude doesn't even know about the woods he's allegedly using, which brings us to the second part: he said they COULD be made of bamboo, not that they were, sounds a LOT like a CYA.  There are a lot of woods that WILL get destroyed at the border, regardless of what it's been carved into, by Customs, most of which are because the wood in question is either an endangered species or the wood is harvested in a horribly unsustainable method, like clearcutting rainforests


That's not the sort of agricultural that the flautist was talking about. 'Agricultural' usually means 'if we let these veggies\fruits in they'll introduce a pest'. On the rare occasion it includes wood, that's usually along the lines of firewood or something else--it doesn't include flutes, which would have been covered in varnish and left in environments where pests would quickly die. Unless it can be proven that the flutes were all made of wood that was an endangered species\harvested in a way that normally prompts destruction (and I mean all), there was no logical reason to destroy the flutes, since they posed no threat to the environment.

In other words, a lawsuit should clear this up real fast.
 
2014-01-01 04:21:07 PM

technicolor-misfit: But that doesn't make the agents in this story wrong.


They're bureaucratic apparatchiks.   They can safely be assumed to be wrong by default unless demonstrated otherwise by a preponderance of evidence.

prjindigo: There are procedures for destruction of property and "stomping on it" is NEVER one.


This.   It was purely malicious, probably motivated by the fact that the guy is of middle eastern origin.
 
2014-01-01 04:25:05 PM
Sticky Hands:

If the bamboo also has to be split in addition to being dry, then the second picture does not qualify.
Maybe that's what landed this guy's work in trouble.


The people dwelling on the 'split AND dry' idea didn't read the paragraphs after that one in the  http://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1359/~/importing-bamboo-i n to-the-us link.  The ones that say:

"Unsplit dried bamboo canes/stakes/poles also are allowed entry into the United States after inspection: however, if the bamboo canes/stakes/poles are intended for garden or nursery use, the shipment must be fumigated (T404-d treatment extended to 24 hours) upon arrival at the U.S. port of entry.

Bamboo furniture, bamboo cloth, and other manufactured products made of bamboo do not require fumigation and will be released upon inspection."
 
2014-01-01 04:26:31 PM

phojo1946: So there must either have been some self-appointed thug here at work or there must have been something else at work to cause these particular items to be singled out


Perhaps the "something else" is the fact that the guy is an EEEVIL MOOSLIM.
 
2014-01-01 04:41:11 PM
"I don't know what to do. I've never written letters to people."

This sucks and all but stop being such a whiner. Yes, you can write a farking letter. It's not rocket surgery.
 
2014-01-01 04:48:26 PM

PsiChick: That's not the sort of agricultural that the flautist was talking about. 'Agricultural' usually means 'if we let these veggies\fruits in they'll introduce a pest'. On the rare occasion it includes wood, that's usually along the lines of firewood or something else--it doesn't include flutes, which would have been covered in varnish and left in environments where pests would quickly die. Unless it can be proven that the flutes were all made of wood that was an endangered species\harvested in a way that normally prompts destruction (and I mean all), there was no logical reason to destroy the flutes, since they posed no threat to the environment.


Except he made them. Maybe they weren't sealed with an accepted product.
 
2014-01-01 04:51:43 PM

WelldeadLink: PsiChick: That's not the sort of agricultural that the flautist was talking about. 'Agricultural' usually means 'if we let these veggies\fruits in they'll introduce a pest'. On the rare occasion it includes wood, that's usually along the lines of firewood or something else--it doesn't include flutes, which would have been covered in varnish and left in environments where pests would quickly die. Unless it can be proven that the flutes were all made of wood that was an endangered species\harvested in a way that normally prompts destruction (and I mean all), there was no logical reason to destroy the flutes, since they posed no threat to the environment.

Except he made them. Maybe they weren't sealed with an accepted product.


The only picture we've seen of them showed them sealed:

www.artsjournal.com
 
2014-01-01 04:52:05 PM

Jument: "I don't know what to do. I've never written letters to people."

This sucks and all but stop being such a whiner. Yes, you can write a farking letter. It's not rocket surgery.



A single letter is not enough. No, you will have to string them into words, sentences, paragraphs! Where will it end? We are talking about the bottom of a page here!
 
2014-01-01 04:53:46 PM

WelldeadLink: PsiChick: That's not the sort of agricultural that the flautist was talking about. 'Agricultural' usually means 'if we let these veggies\fruits in they'll introduce a pest'. On the rare occasion it includes wood, that's usually along the lines of firewood or something else--it doesn't include flutes, which would have been covered in varnish and left in environments where pests would quickly die. Unless it can be proven that the flutes were all made of wood that was an endangered species\harvested in a way that normally prompts destruction (and I mean all), there was no logical reason to destroy the flutes, since they posed no threat to the environment.

Except he made them. Maybe they weren't sealed with an accepted product.


There's a type of wood varnish that bugs and mold can  survive? Assuming he used moldy wood anyway?
 
2014-01-01 04:55:22 PM
I travel with wooden knitting needles and the TSA has never bothered me about them.

dayliliescreative.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-01-01 04:57:56 PM

FizixJunkee: I travel with wooden knitting needles and the TSA has never bothered me about them.

[dayliliescreative.files.wordpress.com image 850x461]


This was CBP not TSA. TSA has enough issues without dragging them into this thread.
 
2014-01-01 05:00:42 PM

redmid17: WelldeadLink: PsiChick: That's not the sort of agricultural that the flautist was talking about. 'Agricultural' usually means 'if we let these veggies\fruits in they'll introduce a pest'. On the rare occasion it includes wood, that's usually along the lines of firewood or something else--it doesn't include flutes, which would have been covered in varnish and left in environments where pests would quickly die. Unless it can be proven that the flutes were all made of wood that was an endangered species\harvested in a way that normally prompts destruction (and I mean all), there was no logical reason to destroy the flutes, since they posed no threat to the environment.

Except he made them. Maybe they weren't sealed with an accepted product.

The only picture we've seen of them showed them sealed:

[www.artsjournal.com image 266x198]


Well, I hate to point out the obvious, but they're hollow. We don't know if the inner area has been finished.

While I'll admit that I have absolutely no idea if that could pose a problem, do you know for a fact that it couldn't?
 
2014-01-01 05:02:06 PM
captainktainer:
"just throwing fruits on the ground and stomping on them would release the bugs inside. "

There's just... nothing correct about what you're writing. At all.


Really ? not a single thing ?
 
2014-01-01 05:07:16 PM

technicolor-misfit: redmid17: WelldeadLink: PsiChick: That's not the sort of agricultural that the flautist was talking about. 'Agricultural' usually means 'if we let these veggies\fruits in they'll introduce a pest'. On the rare occasion it includes wood, that's usually along the lines of firewood or something else--it doesn't include flutes, which would have been covered in varnish and left in environments where pests would quickly die. Unless it can be proven that the flutes were all made of wood that was an endangered species\harvested in a way that normally prompts destruction (and I mean all), there was no logical reason to destroy the flutes, since they posed no threat to the environment.

Except he made them. Maybe they weren't sealed with an accepted product.

The only picture we've seen of them showed them sealed:

[www.artsjournal.com image 266x198]

Well, I hate to point out the obvious, but they're hollow. We don't know if the inner area has been finished.

While I'll admit that I have absolutely no idea if that could pose a problem, do you know for a fact that it couldn't?


Not 100% but I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing versus the CBP not bothering to check or just destroying them.
 
2014-01-01 05:09:52 PM

Slartibartfaster: captainktainer:
"just throwing fruits on the ground and stomping on them would release the bugs inside. "

There's just... nothing correct about what you're writing. At all.

Really ? not a single thing ?



I think the grammar is correct.
 
2014-01-01 05:19:18 PM
graphics8.nytimes.com
I'm assuming the yanks are still a bit pissed over this, eh.

`Ya burn our prezeedunt's house - we burn some Canuck fella's flutes!'
 
2014-01-01 05:23:54 PM

oldfarthenry: [graphics8.nytimes.com image 583x240]
I'm assuming the yanks are still a bit pissed over this, eh.

`Ya burn our prezeedunt's house - we burn some Canuck fella's flutes!'


Why would Americans be pissed off at the Canadians for what the British did?
 
2014-01-01 05:32:56 PM

redmid17: oldfarthenry: [graphics8.nytimes.com image 583x240]
I'm assuming the yanks are still a bit pissed over this, eh.

`Ya burn our prezeedunt's house - we burn some Canuck fella's flutes!'

Why would Americans be pissed off at the Canadians for what the British did?


Um, because those British peeps settled Canuckitsan.
You don't actually believe white folk sprung up from North American soil like pumpkins, right? That Mormon dude with the magic hat was a little "off".
 
2014-01-01 05:38:45 PM

oldfarthenry: redmid17: oldfarthenry: [graphics8.nytimes.com image 583x240]
I'm assuming the yanks are still a bit pissed over this, eh.

`Ya burn our prezeedunt's house - we burn some Canuck fella's flutes!'

Why would Americans be pissed off at the Canadians for what the British did?

Um, because those British peeps settled Canuckitsan.
You don't actually believe white folk sprung up from North American soil like pumpkins, right? That Mormon dude with the magic hat was a little "off".


British regulars burnt the White House. By and large they weren't the same people who settled in Canada.
 
2014-01-01 05:43:49 PM

redmid17: oldfarthenry: redmid17: oldfarthenry: [graphics8.nytimes.com image 583x240]
I'm assuming the yanks are still a bit pissed over this, eh.

`Ya burn our prezeedunt's house - we burn some Canuck fella's flutes!'

Why would Americans be pissed off at the Canadians for what the British did?

Um, because those British peeps settled Canuckitsan.
You don't actually believe white folk sprung up from North American soil like pumpkins, right? That Mormon dude with the magic hat was a little "off".

British regulars burnt the White House. By and large they weren't the same people who settled in Canada.


I'm sorry but you're going to have to back this statement up with some census data. Y'all tend to bullsh*t a lot of your "history" down there - you know, like single-handedly winning both WWI & II via showing up in the final seconds.
 
2014-01-01 05:49:36 PM

oldfarthenry: redmid17: oldfarthenry: redmid17: oldfarthenry: [graphics8.nytimes.com image 583x240]
I'm assuming the yanks are still a bit pissed over this, eh.

`Ya burn our prezeedunt's house - we burn some Canuck fella's flutes!'

Why would Americans be pissed off at the Canadians for what the British did?

Um, because those British peeps settled Canuckitsan.
You don't actually believe white folk sprung up from North American soil like pumpkins, right? That Mormon dude with the magic hat was a little "off".

British regulars burnt the White House. By and large they weren't the same people who settled in Canada.

I'm sorry but you're going to have to back this statement up with some census data. Y'all tend to bullsh*t a lot of your "history" down there - you know, like single-handedly winning both WWI & II via showing up in the final seconds.


www.google.com
data-cke-eol="1">
 
2014-01-01 05:52:16 PM

redmid17: Not 100% but I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing versus the CBP not bothering to check or just destroying them.


We don't know if he sealed them with modern methods. We do know he was making replicas of old instruments, so maybe he was only covering them with oil or other historically-accurate treatments.
 
2014-01-01 05:54:57 PM

WelldeadLink: redmid17: Not 100% but I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing versus the CBP not bothering to check or just destroying them.

We don't know if he sealed them with modern methods. We do know he was making replicas of old instruments, so maybe he was only covering them with oil or other historically-accurate treatments.


Bolded the relevant part for you. Someone who is traveling internationally with wooden instruments stowed in unsealed compartments is probably going to make them as durably as possible.
 
2014-01-01 06:08:08 PM

redmid17: WelldeadLink: redmid17: Not 100% but I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing versus the CBP not bothering to check or just destroying them.

We don't know if he sealed them with modern methods. We do know he was making replicas of old instruments, so maybe he was only covering them with oil or other historically-accurate treatments.

Bolded the relevant part for you. Someone who is traveling internationally with wooden instruments stowed in unsealed compartments is probably going to make them as durably as possible.



That is a tremendous assumption. I won't take issue with:

"I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing."

That's your opinion. Fine. I give it 50/50. I don't know enough about such flutes or their construction to form any conclusions, but that last bit is just a bridge way too damn far. You have no idea what he is "probably" going to do.

You have no idea how various finishings affect durability, tonality, or historical authenticity... and certainly not what preferences this man has or the trade-offs he will make.

Furthermore, according to his own account, the flutes were in a hard bamboo-ish case:

"Boujemaa adds some specifics of the case:

What was in the case? they called Bamboo case
1)     11 nays (flutes) made by me some of them in Canada some in US
2)      material to make new nays in the case
3)      flight  AA 0095    Madrid to JFK
4)      time : 12/22/2013   (notice : on 12/23/2013)
5)      Reason :   nays from plants which is agricultural items (so l can't play nay)"



If they were in a hard case, durability of the flutes is a much lower consideration.
 
2014-01-01 06:20:23 PM
I find it difficult to get enraged about this after reading that he made all 11 flutes himself, that they weren't ancient heirlooms worth millions.
 
2014-01-01 06:45:29 PM

ReverendJynxed: 95BV5: redmid17: Meanwhile nothing in the US CBP guidelines mentions wood at all:

http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/clearing/agri_prod_inus.xml

I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?

Speaking as a former customs inspector, the wood must be sealed airtight, with paint, laquer, or varnish before importation. The purpose is to kill larvae in the wood.

Would radiation and evidence of the wood being sterilized also work?


Evidence that an item had been prepped that way would be nearly impossible to confirm, unlike self-evident sealant. This becomes particularly important for *re-importation* of wooden art and associated materials. Think wood carvings, canvas frames, etc.
 
2014-01-01 06:58:59 PM
counterpoint: I drove from the US to Canada with beef jerky from a grocery store in the car once.  Canadians took it.  Even though they sell the same brand in their grocery stores, made in the same factory in the US.

Rules are rules, and sometimes they suck.
 
2014-01-01 07:03:52 PM

technicolor-misfit: redmid17: WelldeadLink: redmid17: Not 100% but I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing versus the CBP not bothering to check or just destroying them.

We don't know if he sealed them with modern methods. We do know he was making replicas of old instruments, so maybe he was only covering them with oil or other historically-accurate treatments.

Bolded the relevant part for you. Someone who is traveling internationally with wooden instruments stowed in unsealed compartments is probably going to make them as durably as possible.


That is a tremendous assumption. I won't take issue with:

"I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing."

That's your opinion. Fine. I give it 50/50. I don't know enough about such flutes or their construction to form any conclusions, but that last bit is just a bridge way too damn far. You have no idea what he is "probably" going to do.

You have no idea how various finishings affect durability, tonality, or historical authenticity... and certainly not what preferences this man has or the trade-offs he will make.

Furthermore, according to his own account, the flutes were in a hard bamboo-ish case:

"Boujemaa adds some specifics of the case:

What was in the case? they called Bamboo case
1)     11 nays (flutes) made by me some of them in Canada some in US
2)      material to make new nays in the case
3)      flight  AA 0095    Madrid to JFK
4)      time : 12/22/2013   (notice : on 12/23/2013)
5)      Reason :   nays from plants which is agricultural items (so l can't play nay)"


If they were in a hard case, durability of the flutes is a much lower consideration.


True if they were in a hard case, temperature and humidity could do nothing to affect them since the hard case is vacuum sealed.

If you want to defend the CPB to death, by all means do so. I just think it more than strains credulity that this man has carried those exact or similar instruments across dozens of borders probably hundreds of times and this was the only time it mattered. The man has performed pretty much everywhere in western Europe, is a Canadian citizen, and has a residence visa in the US. Given how often he travels it would have been noticed by now.
 
2014-01-01 07:05:18 PM

PsiChick: g4lt: FTFA "The ney flute could be made from bamboo, is that agricultural?".  Actually, yes http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/improvement/lawn-garden/4323342 .  The thing is, right then and there the reader should realize that there's more to this story than meets the eye (that, and the story is actually a press release from the alleged victim, no axe to grind there, amirite?).  First, misrepresenting bamboo as non-agricultural raises a BIG flag: dude doesn't even know about the woods he's allegedly using, which brings us to the second part: he said they COULD be made of bamboo, not that they were, sounds a LOT like a CYA.  There are a lot of woods that WILL get destroyed at the border, regardless of what it's been carved into, by Customs, most of which are because the wood in question is either an endangered species or the wood is harvested in a horribly unsustainable method, like clearcutting rainforests

That's not the sort of agricultural that the flautist was talking about. 'Agricultural' usually means 'if we let these veggies\fruits in they'll introduce a pest'. On the rare occasion it includes wood, that's usually along the lines of firewood or something else--it doesn't include flutes, which would have been covered in varnish and left in environments where pests would quickly die. Unless it can be proven that the flutes were all made of wood that was an endangered species\harvested in a way that normally prompts destruction (and I mean all), there was no logical reason to destroy the flutes, since they posed no threat to the environment.

In other words, a lawsuit should clear this up real fast.


He also said he had "material to make nays", that is, unfinished wood.  You were saying?
 
2014-01-01 07:06:07 PM
Couldn't they have just baked the flutes to kill off any bugs or mailed them back to somewhere with fewer retards in attendance?
 
2014-01-01 07:07:28 PM

g4lt: PsiChick: g4lt: FTFA "The ney flute could be made from bamboo, is that agricultural?".  Actually, yes http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/improvement/lawn-garden/4323342 .  The thing is, right then and there the reader should realize that there's more to this story than meets the eye (that, and the story is actually a press release from the alleged victim, no axe to grind there, amirite?).  First, misrepresenting bamboo as non-agricultural raises a BIG flag: dude doesn't even know about the woods he's allegedly using, which brings us to the second part: he said they COULD be made of bamboo, not that they were, sounds a LOT like a CYA.  There are a lot of woods that WILL get destroyed at the border, regardless of what it's been carved into, by Customs, most of which are because the wood in question is either an endangered species or the wood is harvested in a horribly unsustainable method, like clearcutting rainforests

That's not the sort of agricultural that the flautist was talking about. 'Agricultural' usually means 'if we let these veggies\fruits in they'll introduce a pest'. On the rare occasion it includes wood, that's usually along the lines of firewood or something else--it doesn't include flutes, which would have been covered in varnish and left in environments where pests would quickly die. Unless it can be proven that the flutes were all made of wood that was an endangered species\harvested in a way that normally prompts destruction (and I mean all), there was no logical reason to destroy the flutes, since they posed no threat to the environment.

In other words, a lawsuit should clear this up real fast.

He also said he had "material to make nays", that is, unfinished wood.  You were saying?


How does that affect the finished flutes.
 
2014-01-01 07:09:31 PM

redmid17: technicolor-misfit: redmid17: WelldeadLink: redmid17: Not 100% but I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing versus the CBP not bothering to check or just destroying them.

We don't know if he sealed them with modern methods. We do know he was making replicas of old instruments, so maybe he was only covering them with oil or other historically-accurate treatments.

Bolded the relevant part for you. Someone who is traveling internationally with wooden instruments stowed in unsealed compartments is probably going to make them as durably as possible.


That is a tremendous assumption. I won't take issue with:

"I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing."

That's your opinion. Fine. I give it 50/50. I don't know enough about such flutes or their construction to form any conclusions, but that last bit is just a bridge way too damn far. You have no idea what he is "probably" going to do.

You have no idea how various finishings affect durability, tonality, or historical authenticity... and certainly not what preferences this man has or the trade-offs he will make.

Furthermore, according to his own account, the flutes were in a hard bamboo-ish case:

"Boujemaa adds some specifics of the case:

What was in the case? they called Bamboo case
1)     11 nays (flutes) made by me some of them in Canada some in US
2)      material to make new nays in the case
3)      flight  AA 0095    Madrid to JFK
4)      time : 12/22/2013   (notice : on 12/23/2013)
5)      Reason :   nays from plants which is agricultural items (so l can't play nay)"


If they were in a hard case, durability of the flutes is a much lower consideration.

True if they were in a hard case, temperature and humidity could do nothing to affect them since the hard case is vacuum sealed.

If you want to defend the CPB to death, by all means do so. I just think it more than strains credu ...


The "material to make new nays (sic)" part kind of makes your sealed part a complete falsehood, no?  Last time I heard, you finish AFTER you actually carve, hence why it's called FINISHing and not starting.
 
2014-01-01 07:13:38 PM

g4lt: PsiChick: g4lt: FTFA "The ney flute could be made from bamboo, is that agricultural?".  Actually, yes http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/improvement/lawn-garden/4323342 .  The thing is, right then and there the reader should realize that there's more to this story than meets the eye (that, and the story is actually a press release from the alleged victim, no axe to grind there, amirite?).  First, misrepresenting bamboo as non-agricultural raises a BIG flag: dude doesn't even know about the woods he's allegedly using, which brings us to the second part: he said they COULD be made of bamboo, not that they were, sounds a LOT like a CYA.  There are a lot of woods that WILL get destroyed at the border, regardless of what it's been carved into, by Customs, most of which are because the wood in question is either an endangered species or the wood is harvested in a horribly unsustainable method, like clearcutting rainforests

That's not the sort of agricultural that the flautist was talking about. 'Agricultural' usually means 'if we let these veggies\fruits in they'll introduce a pest'. On the rare occasion it includes wood, that's usually along the lines of firewood or something else--it doesn't include flutes, which would have been covered in varnish and left in environments where pests would quickly die. Unless it can be proven that the flutes were all made of wood that was an endangered species\harvested in a way that normally prompts destruction (and I mean all), there was no logical reason to destroy the flutes, since they posed no threat to the environment.

In other words, a lawsuit should clear this up real fast.

He also said he had "material to make nays", that is, unfinished wood.  You were saying?


As redmid pointed out--and that has what to do with the price of tea in China again?
 
2014-01-01 07:13:55 PM

g4lt: redmid17: technicolor-misfit: redmid17: WelldeadLink: redmid17: Not 100% but I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing versus the CBP not bothering to check or just destroying them.

We don't know if he sealed them with modern methods. We do know he was making replicas of old instruments, so maybe he was only covering them with oil or other historically-accurate treatments.

Bolded the relevant part for you. Someone who is traveling internationally with wooden instruments stowed in unsealed compartments is probably going to make them as durably as possible.


That is a tremendous assumption. I won't take issue with:

"I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing."

That's your opinion. Fine. I give it 50/50. I don't know enough about such flutes or their construction to form any conclusions, but that last bit is just a bridge way too damn far. You have no idea what he is "probably" going to do.

You have no idea how various finishings affect durability, tonality, or historical authenticity... and certainly not what preferences this man has or the trade-offs he will make.

Furthermore, according to his own account, the flutes were in a hard bamboo-ish case:

"Boujemaa adds some specifics of the case:

What was in the case? they called Bamboo case
1)     11 nays (flutes) made by me some of them in Canada some in US
2)      material to make new nays in the case
3)      flight  AA 0095    Madrid to JFK
4)      time : 12/22/2013   (notice : on 12/23/2013)
5)      Reason :   nays from plants which is agricultural items (so l can't play nay)"


If they were in a hard case, durability of the flutes is a much lower consideration.

True if they were in a hard case, temperature and humidity could do nothing to affect them since the hard case is vacuum sealed.

If you want to defend the CPB to death, by all means do so. I just think it more than str ...


There were flutes, which were sealed, and there were raw materials, which should have been inspected and kept or inspected and destroyed.  These are two separate things. I'll see if that sinks in. Highlighting the post I was responding to:

What was in the case? they called Bamboo case
1)     11 nays (flutes) made by me some of them in Canada some in US  --->   THESE WERE SEALED
2)      material to make new nays in the case
  ----> NOT SEALED
 
2014-01-01 07:17:21 PM

redmid17: g4lt: PsiChick: g4lt: FTFA "The ney flute could be made from bamboo, is that agricultural?".  Actually, yes http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/improvement/lawn-garden/4323342 .  The thing is, right then and there the reader should realize that there's more to this story than meets the eye (that, and the story is actually a press release from the alleged victim, no axe to grind there, amirite?).  First, misrepresenting bamboo as non-agricultural raises a BIG flag: dude doesn't even know about the woods he's allegedly using, which brings us to the second part: he said they COULD be made of bamboo, not that they were, sounds a LOT like a CYA.  There are a lot of woods that WILL get destroyed at the border, regardless of what it's been carved into, by Customs, most of which are because the wood in question is either an endangered species or the wood is harvested in a horribly unsustainable method, like clearcutting rainforests

That's not the sort of agricultural that the flautist was talking about. 'Agricultural' usually means 'if we let these veggies\fruits in they'll introduce a pest'. On the rare occasion it includes wood, that's usually along the lines of firewood or something else--it doesn't include flutes, which would have been covered in varnish and left in environments where pests would quickly die. Unless it can be proven that the flutes were all made of wood that was an endangered species\harvested in a way that normally prompts destruction (and I mean all), there was no logical reason to destroy the flutes, since they posed no threat to the environment.

In other words, a lawsuit should clear this up real fast.

He also said he had "material to make nays", that is, unfinished wood.  You were saying?

How does that affect the finished flutes.


If the unfinished wood was the reason they got destroyed by Customs, everything in the shipment was subject to destruction.  Pests tend to hatch out of infested products and hide in finished products.  Again, we have NFI what the actual reason was, because Customs can't talk, and the farkingflautist changes his story like a chameleon changes colors: I was almost happier when he was not saying anything, then at least there was some small chance it was a misunderstanding and not the almost certain chance that he's crying wolf.
 
2014-01-01 07:19:33 PM

redmid17: g4lt: redmid17: technicolor-misfit: redmid17: WelldeadLink: redmid17: Not 100% but I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing versus the CBP not bothering to check or just destroying them.

We don't know if he sealed them with modern methods. We do know he was making replicas of old instruments, so maybe he was only covering them with oil or other historically-accurate treatments.

Bolded the relevant part for you. Someone who is traveling internationally with wooden instruments stowed in unsealed compartments is probably going to make them as durably as possible.


That is a tremendous assumption. I won't take issue with:

"I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing."

That's your opinion. Fine. I give it 50/50. I don't know enough about such flutes or their construction to form any conclusions, but that last bit is just a bridge way too damn far. You have no idea what he is "probably" going to do.

You have no idea how various finishings affect durability, tonality, or historical authenticity... and certainly not what preferences this man has or the trade-offs he will make.

Furthermore, according to his own account, the flutes were in a hard bamboo-ish case:

"Boujemaa adds some specifics of the case:

What was in the case? they called Bamboo case
1)     11 nays (flutes) made by me some of them in Canada some in US
2)      material to make new nays in the case
3)      flight  AA 0095    Madrid to JFK
4)      time : 12/22/2013   (notice : on 12/23/2013)
5)      Reason :   nays from plants which is agricultural items (so l can't play nay)"


If they were in a hard case, durability of the flutes is a much lower consideration.

True if they were in a hard case, temperature and humidity could do nothing to affect them since the hard case is vacuum sealed.

If you want to defend the CPB to death, by all means do so. I just think it more th ...


Misattribution FTL, Alex.
 
2014-01-01 07:23:21 PM
g4lt: If the unfinished wood was the reason they got destroyed by Customs, everything in the shipment was subject to destruction.  Pests tend to hatch out of infested products and hide in finished products.  Again, we have NFI what the actual reason was, because Customs can't talk, and the farkingflautist changes his story like a chameleon changes colors: I was almost happier when he was not saying anything, then at least there was some small chance it was a misunderstanding and not the almost certain chance that he's crying wolf.

If everything was subject to destruction, they did a pretty shiatty job because the rest of his luggage wasn't destroyed and sealed wood and plastics have no need to be destroyed, just sterilized/fumigated. Besides that's not what their own import guidelines say.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/manuals/ports/downloa ds /miscellaneous.pdf
 
2014-01-01 07:28:25 PM

redmid17: g4lt: If the unfinished wood was the reason they got destroyed by Customs, everything in the shipment was subject to destruction.  Pests tend to hatch out of infested products and hide in finished products.  Again, we have NFI what the actual reason was, because Customs can't talk, and the farkingflautist changes his story like a chameleon changes colors: I was almost happier when he was not saying anything, then at least there was some small chance it was a misunderstanding and not the almost certain chance that he's crying wolf.

If everything was subject to destruction, they did a pretty shiatty job because the rest of his luggage wasn't destroyed and sealed wood and plastics have no need to be destroyed, just sterilized/fumigated. Besides that's not what their own import guidelines say.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/manuals/ports/downloa ds /miscellaneous.pdf


Wasn't that "the only law that could possibly have any bearing" upthread, even though the Lacey Act clearly had some bearing on destroyed wood objects?  Yeah, credibility 0 on that URL  How about you find the actual law they used this time?  Or better yet, quit speculating on what COULD have been the law when you've clearly been proven to have NFI.
 
2014-01-01 07:32:24 PM

g4lt: redmid17: g4lt: If the unfinished wood was the reason they got destroyed by Customs, everything in the shipment was subject to destruction.  Pests tend to hatch out of infested products and hide in finished products.  Again, we have NFI what the actual reason was, because Customs can't talk, and the farkingflautist changes his story like a chameleon changes colors: I was almost happier when he was not saying anything, then at least there was some small chance it was a misunderstanding and not the almost certain chance that he's crying wolf.

If everything was subject to destruction, they did a pretty shiatty job because the rest of his luggage wasn't destroyed and sealed wood and plastics have no need to be destroyed, just sterilized/fumigated. Besides that's not what their own import guidelines say.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/manuals/ports/downloa ds /miscellaneous.pdf

Wasn't that "the only law that could possibly have any bearing" upthread, even though the Lacey Act clearly had some bearing on destroyed wood objects?  Yeah, credibility 0 on that URL  How about you find the actual law they used this time?  Or better yet, quit speculating on what COULD have been the law when you've clearly been proven to have NFI.


Quit huffing dude. The Lacey Act covers endangered plants and animals. I already talked about this, but you apparently can't or won't read. I didn't say there was "only one law." That's a figment of your imagination.

So CBP destroyed his flutes. Possible explanations have been 1) Lacey Act violation or 2) Invasive species, but we haven't seen any proof CBP suspected or proved either. Basically we have a guy whose livelihood has been ruined because CBP had a reason but was too sickish to explain why or just sickish.
 
2014-01-01 07:41:28 PM
Are you all PROUD of yourselves? Is this the America that WAS the greatest country on the planet? (No, and no again.)
 
2014-01-01 08:51:51 PM

redmid17: g4lt: redmid17: g4lt: If the unfinished wood was the reason they got destroyed by Customs, everything in the shipment was subject to destruction.  Pests tend to hatch out of infested products and hide in finished products.  Again, we have NFI what the actual reason was, because Customs can't talk, and the farkingflautist changes his story like a chameleon changes colors: I was almost happier when he was not saying anything, then at least there was some small chance it was a misunderstanding and not the almost certain chance that he's crying wolf.

If everything was subject to destruction, they did a pretty shiatty job because the rest of his luggage wasn't destroyed and sealed wood and plastics have no need to be destroyed, just sterilized/fumigated. Besides that's not what their own import guidelines say.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/manuals/ports/downloa ds /miscellaneous.pdf

Wasn't that "the only law that could possibly have any bearing" upthread, even though the Lacey Act clearly had some bearing on destroyed wood objects?  Yeah, credibility 0 on that URL  How about you find the actual law they used this time?  Or better yet, quit speculating on what COULD have been the law when you've clearly been proven to have NFI.

Quit huffing dude. The Lacey Act covers endangered plants and animals. I already talked about this, but you apparently can't or won't read. I didn't say there was "only one law." That's a figment of your imagination.

So CBP destroyed his flutes. Possible explanations have been 1) Lacey Act violation or 2) Invasive species, but we haven't seen any proof CBP suspected or proved either. Basically we have a guy whose livelihood has been ruined because CBP had a reason but was too sickish to explain why or just sickish.


http://www.fark.com/comments/8082378/88466471#c88466471 Ahh, right, you said there was NO law at first, then you said you could only one, then you admitted to the lacey act thing, telling us you knew all about it, ad nauseam.  Any more surprises?  Strawmen now quake in fear around you and your pyromaniac ways
 
2014-01-01 09:00:23 PM

g4lt: redmid17: g4lt: redmid17: g4lt: If the unfinished wood was the reason they got destroyed by Customs, everything in the shipment was subject to destruction.  Pests tend to hatch out of infested products and hide in finished products.  Again, we have NFI what the actual reason was, because Customs can't talk, and the farkingflautist changes his story like a chameleon changes colors: I was almost happier when he was not saying anything, then at least there was some small chance it was a misunderstanding and not the almost certain chance that he's crying wolf.

If everything was subject to destruction, they did a pretty shiatty job because the rest of his luggage wasn't destroyed and sealed wood and plastics have no need to be destroyed, just sterilized/fumigated. Besides that's not what their own import guidelines say.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/manuals/ports/downloa ds /miscellaneous.pdf

Wasn't that "the only law that could possibly have any bearing" upthread, even though the Lacey Act clearly had some bearing on destroyed wood objects?  Yeah, credibility 0 on that URL  How about you find the actual law they used this time?  Or better yet, quit speculating on what COULD have been the law when you've clearly been proven to have NFI.

Quit huffing dude. The Lacey Act covers endangered plants and animals. I already talked about this, but you apparently can't or won't read. I didn't say there was "only one law." That's a figment of your imagination.

So CBP destroyed his flutes. Possible explanations have been 1) Lacey Act violation or 2) Invasive species, but we haven't seen any proof CBP suspected or proved either. Basically we have a guy whose livelihood has been ruined because CBP had a reason but was too sickish to explain why or just sickish.

http://www.fark.com/comments/8082378/88466471#c88466471 Ahh, right, you said there was NO law at first, then you said you could only one, then you admitted to the lacey act thing, telling us you knew all ...


No I didn't say there was no law. I said it didn't look like it was mentioned in the guidelines. Let's see what that comment said:

Meanwhile nothing in the US CBP guidelines mentions wood at all:  http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/clearing/agri_prod_inus.xml

I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?


You can run a CTRL+F on that comment if you want. I don't think you are going to find the word "law" or any definitive statement, and I even followed it up with a query from anyone who might know more. I knew what the Lacey Act is and know invasive species are prohibited. Self-crafted instruments that have crossed dozens of borders probably hundreds of times before seizure wouldn't seem to fall under those particular tracks would they?
 
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