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(The Raw Story)   You're an internationally renowned flautist from Canada who lovingly crafts your flutes by hand. U.S. Customs officials: These are made of wood, which makes them agricultural products and therefore must be destroyed   ( rawstory.com) divider line
    More: Asinine, U.S. Customs, customs officer, Measuring instrument, virtuoso, Canadian citizen, disc injury, John F. Kennedy International Airport  
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14384 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Jan 2014 at 11:20 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-01-01 12:19:43 PM  

g4lt: redmid17: g4lt: redmid17: Meanwhile nothing in the US CBP guidelines mentions wood at all:

http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/clearing/agri_prod_inus.xml

I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?

You didn't look very hard....  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacey_Act_of_1900

Now explain how the Lacey Act of 1900, which isn't new or unknown to me, would affect this particular "import of wood" given that none of it is alive and is actually permitted under CBP guidelines?

I'll wait.

Oh, I don't know, how about the entirety of section 8204, the section that gets its own special webpage at CBP?  Just because you weren't aware of things doesn't mean they don't exist.


So how exactly was this wood illegally harvested and did the CBP even assert, let alone prove, this before they destroyed? Typically even the US government likes to give some reason before dishing out punitive measures.
 
2014-01-01 12:20:58 PM  

redmid17: Brosephus: r1niceboy: pueblonative: r1niceboy: RussianPooper: pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.

Only 4 posts to get to the asshole apologist.

If there's one thing about natives of pueblos, they certainly know how to be submissive to the point of Ned Beatty.

Here's a experiment: go to another country bringing prohibited items and try out the "I didn't know the laws" excuse while asserting your rights and screaming about the fairness of the situation.  Then come back and tell us how many turkish prison cell rapes you experienced.

I've been to lots of countries, none of which took perverse pleasure in enforcing asinine laws. Now, please, explain the harm that a carved piece of wood could do. Please feel free to compare it to, say, a species of invasive fish.

http://www.emeraldashborer.info/#sthash.dZwYnM8p.dpbs

http://www.ohiochapterisa.org/news/87453/

How exactly would it be difficult for CBP to examine carved wooden flutes for the presence of beetles? It's not as if they were being brought into the country by truck because they weighed several tons.


It's not difficult at all.  They would be visually inspected, and if one even has a hint of damage by pest, they would all be destroyed to prohibit the possibility of any pests being introduced into this country.  Likewise, if there are any indicators, such as exoskeleton that has been molted, they will be destroyed even without the presence of the pest.  After pouring several billions of dollars into fighting invasive species, the government thought it would be better to prevent them from entering as opposed to spending billions fighting them after they arrive.

Check out information on the Khapra beetle, Emerald Ash Borer, Mediterranean Fruit Fly, Gypsy Moth, and other invasive species that has cost us billions of dollars.
 
2014-01-01 12:21:24 PM  

badhatharry: Rules are rules. Just followin' the rules.


Yeah, we should all break the rules whenever we want or because we think it's dumb and know better than the people who put together the laws in the first place.  I mean it's not as if these laws aren't put together after gathering the input of interested parties and through a formalized system anyway.


/anarchy ain't freedom
//anarchy is slavery
///slashies is free
 
2014-01-01 12:21:44 PM  
Sounds like the guy was bamboozled out of his flutes.
 
2014-01-01 12:22:57 PM  

pueblonative: Voiceofreason01: pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.

bullshiat. It is perfectly legal to carry instruments made from wood in and out of the country, they are not "agricultural products", the custom officials were WRONG. What's more, you should be outraged that this kind of crap is becoming common place(and being done in your name) and Razgui should sue.

Didn't know we had a Fark Lawyer on.  Please give your bar number and the cite of the law that states this.


Here are the Border Patrol guidelines about bringing agricultural products into the country. Note how it doesn't mention dead wood that has been processed into a musical instrument.
 
2014-01-01 12:23:10 PM  

TNel: redmid17: Finished, manufactured, or naturally weathered products including carvings, driftwood, furniture, picture frames, and musical instruments, and plywood are allowed into the U.S., but you need to declare them so the items can be inspected by CBP.

So it looks like they destroyed his flutes for no reason and probably violated their own rules in doing so.


'I told them I had these instruments for many years and flew with them in and out,' he said. 'There were 11 instruments in all. They told me they were agricultural products and they had to be destroyed. There was nothing I could do. The ney flute can be made with bamboo. Is that agricultural?'
Bouzemaa was both upset and unwilling to risk a confrontation with the US authorities.  We did not press him for further particulars. He does not know what to do next. But he does appear to be the victim of state injustice. What do the lawyers among our readers think he should do?

http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2013/12/jfk-customs-destroyed -1 1-of-my-instruments.html

I bolded the important part for you, it seems like the guy never declared the items.  He then never argued so they probably assumed he didn't care much about them so they took them.

Look people I know we don't want to have to declare shiat and have people digging into our suitcases but if you don't this can happen.  I've never declared my alcohol and shiat when I come back but if they catch me they will take it and I wont sit here and biatch about people doing their job when I wasn't willing to fill out the stupid form that would allow me to just walk in with the stuff.


I got that. He should have declared them, though I admit I probably wouldn't have thought twice about wooden instruments needing to be declared, but it's still grossly overreactive. They know he's traveled with them for years and how he makes his living. If they destroyed them because he didn't declare them instead of them proving a tangible threat or Lacey Act violation, that's still completely wrong. Give him a fine and move on.
 
2014-01-01 12:25:31 PM  

pueblonative: badhatharry: Rules are rules. Just followin' the rules.

Yeah, we should all break the rules whenever we want or because we think it's dumb and know better than the people who put together the laws in the first place.  I mean it's not as if these laws aren't put together after gathering the input of interested parties and through a formalized system anyway.


/anarchy ain't freedom
//anarchy is slavery
///slashies is free


Yes, stupid rules need to be ignored. Who decides which rules are stupid? We, the people. Specifically, the people on my jury.
 
2014-01-01 12:26:11 PM  

redmid17: TNel: redmid17: Finished, manufactured, or naturally weathered products including carvings, driftwood, furniture, picture frames, and musical instruments, and plywood are allowed into the U.S., but you need to declare them so the items can be inspected by CBP.

So it looks like they destroyed his flutes for no reason and probably violated their own rules in doing so.


'I told them I had these instruments for many years and flew with them in and out,' he said. 'There were 11 instruments in all. They told me they were agricultural products and they had to be destroyed. There was nothing I could do. The ney flute can be made with bamboo. Is that agricultural?'
Bouzemaa was both upset and unwilling to risk a confrontation with the US authorities.  We did not press him for further particulars. He does not know what to do next. But he does appear to be the victim of state injustice. What do the lawyers among our readers think he should do?

http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2013/12/jfk-customs-destroyed -1 1-of-my-instruments.html

I bolded the important part for you, it seems like the guy never declared the items.  He then never argued so they probably assumed he didn't care much about them so they took them.

Look people I know we don't want to have to declare shiat and have people digging into our suitcases but if you don't this can happen.  I've never declared my alcohol and shiat when I come back but if they catch me they will take it and I wont sit here and biatch about people doing their job when I wasn't willing to fill out the stupid form that would allow me to just walk in with the stuff.

I got that. He should have declared them, though I admit I probably wouldn't have thought twice about wooden instruments needing to be declared, but it's still grossly overreactive. They know he's traveled with them for years and how he makes his living. If they destroyed them because he didn't declare them instead of them proving a tangible threat or Lacey Act violation ...


Nice to see you came to that conclusion after thoroughly investigating all sides  of the story as reported on in the original link.
 
2014-01-01 12:26:16 PM  
This is what happens when you leave it to high school drop outs to interpret complicated polices like those governing international travel.  I say its high time we stop this bull shiat from cointinuing, never a month goes by without some horror story of some invaluable instrument getting destroyed on these trips due to the neglectful actions of these mouth breathers.

We must stop musicians from touring.
 
2014-01-01 12:27:03 PM  

Brosephus: redmid17: Brosephus: r1niceboy: pueblonative: r1niceboy: RussianPooper: pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.

Only 4 posts to get to the asshole apologist.

If there's one thing about natives of pueblos, they certainly know how to be submissive to the point of Ned Beatty.

Here's a experiment: go to another country bringing prohibited items and try out the "I didn't know the laws" excuse while asserting your rights and screaming about the fairness of the situation.  Then come back and tell us how many turkish prison cell rapes you experienced.

I've been to lots of countries, none of which took perverse pleasure in enforcing asinine laws. Now, please, explain the harm that a carved piece of wood could do. Please feel free to compare it to, say, a species of invasive fish.

http://www.emeraldashborer.info/#sthash.dZwYnM8p.dpbs

http://www.ohiochapterisa.org/news/87453/

How exactly would it be difficult for CBP to examine carved wooden flutes for the presence of beetles? It's not as if they were being brought into the country by truck because they weighed several tons.

It's not difficult at all.  They would be visually inspected, and if one even has a hint of damage by pest, they would all be destroyed to prohibit the possibility of any pests being introduced into this country.  Likewise, if there are any indicators, such as exoskeleton that has been molted, they will be destroyed even without the presence of the pest.  After pouring several billions of dollars into fighting invasive species, the government thought it would be better to prevent them from entering as opposed to spending billions fighting them after they arrive.

Check out information on the Khapra beetle, Emerald Ash Borer, Mediterranean Fruit Fly, Gypsy Moth, and other invasive species that has cost us billions of dollars.


I don't have to read up on invasive species. I'm well aware of how pervasive they can be (asian carp, zebra mussels, pythons in south florida, et al). My point is, they'd have at least told him if they saw evidence of any of that (or should have told him).

So CBP destroyed his flutes. Possible explanations have been 1) Lacey Act violation or 2) Invasive species, but we haven't seen any proof CBP suspected or proved either. Basically we have a guy whose livelihood has been ruined because CBP had a reason but was too sickish to explain why or just sickish.

Does this strike anyone as acceptable?
 
2014-01-01 12:27:15 PM  

redmid17: g4lt: redmid17: g4lt: redmid17: Meanwhile nothing in the US CBP guidelines mentions wood at all:

http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/clearing/agri_prod_inus.xml

I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?

You didn't look very hard....  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacey_Act_of_1900

Now explain how the Lacey Act of 1900, which isn't new or unknown to me, would affect this particular "import of wood" given that none of it is alive and is actually permitted under CBP guidelines?

I'll wait.

Oh, I don't know, how about the entirety of section 8204, the section that gets its own special webpage at CBP?  Just because you weren't aware of things doesn't mean they don't exist.

So how exactly was this wood illegally harvested and did the CBP even assert, let alone prove, this before they destroyed? Typically even the US government likes to give some reason before dishing out punitive measures.


Ahh, so you're a psychic, knowing precisely what wood was used now?  The farkingflautist won't even say what they were made of...
 
2014-01-01 12:27:32 PM  

AgentKGB: [images01.olx.com image 625x469]

Agricultural products...


www.benandsebastian.com
 
2014-01-01 12:27:47 PM  

abhorrent1: Well if he makes his own flutes, can't he just make more?


I think the Razgul lost their power to create more when the Master Flute Maker bent them to his will.
 
2014-01-01 12:28:14 PM  
The human body is made with meat. It must be destroyed.
 
2014-01-01 12:28:32 PM  

badhatharry: pueblonative: badhatharry: Rules are rules. Just followin' the rules.

Yeah, we should all break the rules whenever we want or because we think it's dumb and know better than the people who put together the laws in the first place.  I mean it's not as if these laws aren't put together after gathering the input of interested parties and through a formalized system anyway.


/anarchy ain't freedom
//anarchy is slavery
///slashies is free

Yes, stupid rules need to be ignored. Who decides which rules are stupid? We, the people. Specifically, the people on my jury.


Hate to break it to you, but usually there's this process when seating a jury called voir dire that weeds out people who are incompetent or who like to use things like jury nullification.  So no, you don't get a jury of good ol' boys who think they can decide what the law is or isn't.
 
2014-01-01 12:28:52 PM  

pueblonative: redmid17: TNel: redmid17: Finished, manufactured, or naturally weathered products including carvings, driftwood, furniture, picture frames, and musical instruments, and plywood are allowed into the U.S., but you need to declare them so the items can be inspected by CBP.

So it looks like they destroyed his flutes for no reason and probably violated their own rules in doing so.


'I told them I had these instruments for many years and flew with them in and out,' he said. 'There were 11 instruments in all. They told me they were agricultural products and they had to be destroyed. There was nothing I could do. The ney flute can be made with bamboo. Is that agricultural?'
Bouzemaa was both upset and unwilling to risk a confrontation with the US authorities.  We did not press him for further particulars. He does not know what to do next. But he does appear to be the victim of state injustice. What do the lawyers among our readers think he should do?

http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2013/12/jfk-customs-destroyed -1 1-of-my-instruments.html

I bolded the important part for you, it seems like the guy never declared the items.  He then never argued so they probably assumed he didn't care much about them so they took them.

Look people I know we don't want to have to declare shiat and have people digging into our suitcases but if you don't this can happen.  I've never declared my alcohol and shiat when I come back but if they catch me they will take it and I wont sit here and biatch about people doing their job when I wasn't willing to fill out the stupid form that would allow me to just walk in with the stuff.

I got that. He should have declared them, though I admit I probably wouldn't have thought twice about wooden instruments needing to be declared, but it's still grossly overreactive. They know he's traveled with them for years and how he makes his living. If they destroyed them because he didn't declare them instead of them proving a tangible threat or Lacey Act ...


Nice to see you sucking CBP dick because apparently you think they can't do wrong? CBP has about a million valid reasons to destroy the guy's flutes. The least they could do is explain to him why they were being destroyed.
 
2014-01-01 12:29:54 PM  

redmid17: pueblonative: redmid17: TNel: redmid17: Finished, manufactured, or naturally weathered products including carvings, driftwood, furniture, picture frames, and musical instruments, and plywood are allowed into the U.S., but you need to declare them so the items can be inspected by CBP.

So it looks like they destroyed his flutes for no reason and probably violated their own rules in doing so.


'I told them I had these instruments for many years and flew with them in and out,' he said. 'There were 11 instruments in all. They told me they were agricultural products and they had to be destroyed. There was nothing I could do. The ney flute can be made with bamboo. Is that agricultural?'
Bouzemaa was both upset and unwilling to risk a confrontation with the US authorities.  We did not press him for further particulars. He does not know what to do next. But he does appear to be the victim of state injustice. What do the lawyers among our readers think he should do?

http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2013/12/jfk-customs-destroyed -1 1-of-my-instruments.html

I bolded the important part for you, it seems like the guy never declared the items.  He then never argued so they probably assumed he didn't care much about them so they took them.

Look people I know we don't want to have to declare shiat and have people digging into our suitcases but if you don't this can happen.  I've never declared my alcohol and shiat when I come back but if they catch me they will take it and I wont sit here and biatch about people doing their job when I wasn't willing to fill out the stupid form that would allow me to just walk in with the stuff.

I got that. He should have declared them, though I admit I probably wouldn't have thought twice about wooden instruments needing to be declared, but it's still grossly overreactive. They know he's traveled with them for years and how he makes his living. If they destroyed them because he didn't declare them instead of them proving a tangible threa ...


And I'm sure he gave an accurate and honest answer and didn';t twist it around to make customs look bad.  All the same, until we hear from customs we only have half the story.
 
2014-01-01 12:30:02 PM  

pueblonative: r1niceboy: RussianPooper: pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.

Only 4 posts to get to the asshole apologist.

If there's one thing about natives of pueblos, they certainly know how to be submissive to the point of Ned Beatty.

Here's a experiment: go to another country bringing prohibited items and try out the "I didn't know the laws" excuse while asserting your rights and screaming about the fairness of the situation.  Then come back and tell us how many turkish prison cell rapes you experienced.


Like the US marine who was running around Mexico  with a shotgun he smuggled in and he claimed he had no idea it was illegal to bring a weapon into another country and everyone was all up in arms. He claimed US custom officials told him it was ok.  Geez, like US officials know the laws of other countries.

I bet this guy guy all assy with the TSA.

This reminds me of the time my brother in law in Colombia called me and said "we got two gringos in jail, come on over"  So I went to the jail and it was two Canadian college professors who had been in a whorehouse drunk and causing trouble.

Seems like the cops came and calmed the situation down and one of the Canucks thought it would be funny to jump on the cops motorcycle and take a spin around the block.

So they were arrested and thrown in the clink. In Colombia you are gringo if you ain't Colombian.

So I get there and these two guys are screaming for me to call the Canadian Embassy, because they are not American are not being treated properly.

I explain to them that they stole a motorcyle, slapped a stripper, and ran out on a tab, that it is not exactly diplomatic immunity.  The answer"It is cool dude, we are not from the US we are Canadian"

I explained that they were going to do 30 days, lose their jobs, etc, but if they could come up with 200 bucks to bribe the cops, they would be let go.  They were incensed yelling about corruption and how dare I suggest that.  But running out on a tab, slapping a whore, and stealing a cops bike was ok.

In the end I won out, but when they went back to work the next week the picture they painted was much like that of this flute tootler.
 
2014-01-01 12:30:33 PM  
Since we're only hearing the guy's side of the story, I refuse to jump up and down in outrage.

Most times I've heard of something being refused entry or declared ineligible to bring on a plane, the traveler has the option to ship it home if it means enough to them.

I really doubt they snatched the flutes out of his hand and said "they're ours now and we're going to immolate them right before your eyes as tribute to our dearest holy one, the great and benevolent Barack Hussein Obama, all peace be upon him!!!"

I'll eat my hat if he didn't have some other options that he's conveniently omitting because they'll knock all the outrage right out of his "Big Brother run amok" story.

9 times out 10 these stories go from "OUTRAGE!!!" to "Oh, well that's actually pretty reasonable." within a day or so when all the details come out. Unfortunately, 9 out of 10 people who get "OUTRAGED!!!" by these stories have an ideological axe to grind and refuse to acknowledege the new information or have short attention spans and have already moved to the next "outrage du jour."
 
2014-01-01 12:30:54 PM  

stuffy: The human body is made with meat. It must be destroyed.


Hate to break it to you, but I've been beating my meat for years and it still keeps on ticking.
 
2014-01-01 12:31:13 PM  

Fano: abhorrent1: Well if he makes his own flutes, can't he just make more?

I think the Razgul lost their power to create more when the Master Flute Maker bent them to his will.


If someone bent my flute there'd be a kink in the line after that for sure, it'd take quite an asshole to pull that off I tell you.
 
2014-01-01 12:31:17 PM  

g4lt: redmid17: g4lt: redmid17: g4lt: redmid17: Meanwhile nothing in the US CBP guidelines mentions wood at all:

http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/clearing/agri_prod_inus.xml

I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?

You didn't look very hard....  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacey_Act_of_1900

Now explain how the Lacey Act of 1900, which isn't new or unknown to me, would affect this particular "import of wood" given that none of it is alive and is actually permitted under CBP guidelines?

I'll wait.

Oh, I don't know, how about the entirety of section 8204, the section that gets its own special webpage at CBP?  Just because you weren't aware of things doesn't mean they don't exist.

So how exactly was this wood illegally harvested and did the CBP even assert, let alone prove, this before they destroyed? Typically even the US government likes to give some reason before dishing out punitive measures.

Ahh, so you're a psychic, knowing precisely what wood was used now?  The farkingflautist won't even say what they were made of...


I don't have to be a psychic. I'm expecting the government to follow some sort of method, a due process maybe, to determine whether or not these instruments violated some import law, which by CBP guidelines are to allow these kind of instruments into the country.
 
2014-01-01 12:31:39 PM  

redmid17: I don't have to read up on invasive species. I'm well aware of how pervasive they can be (asian carp, zebra mussels, pythons in south florida, et al). My point is, they'd have at least told him if they saw evidence of any of that (or should have told him).

So CBP destroyed his flutes. Possible explanations have been 1) Lacey Act violation or 2) Invasive species, but we haven't seen any proof CBP suspected or proved either. Basically we have a guy whose livelihood has been ruined because CBP had a reason but was too sickish to explain why or just sickish.

Does this strike anyone as acceptable?

 

Given this story is as one-sided as any story could possibly be, I don't see enough information to make any kind of informed opinion of the situation.  All you have is the complaint of the person.  There's no information about what actually transpired at JFK beyond what he says.  I know people who work for Customs, and they're not the kind of people who just fark with people just for giggles.  I've also lived in a part of the country that spent billions of dollars trying save pine trees that got infected by an invasive species.

For me, this is all sound and fury signifying nothing as there's not enough factual information to know what really happened.  I can't say it's acceptable or unacceptable at this point.  I do know that it's best to declare things to avoid losing them when you enter the US.
 
2014-01-01 12:31:42 PM  

redmid17: redmid17: Meanwhile nothing in the US CBP guidelines mentions wood at all:

http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/clearing/agri_prod_inus.xml

I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?

Well found some stuff:

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1166

Finished, manufactured, or naturally weathered products including carvings, driftwood, furniture, picture frames, and musical instruments, and plywood are allowed into the U.S., but you need to declare them so the items can be inspected by CBP.

So it looks like they destroyed his flutes for no reason and probably violated their own rules in doing so.


From your own link: "Please note that all items made from wood, feathers, or bone may also be subject to endangered species regulations. See our Q&A entitled: Endangered species, CITES, endangered wildlife, plants, exotic skins, animals https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/64/session/L2F2LzEvdGltZS 8xMzg4NTk3MTA4L3NpZC9OaTR1Z2lKbA==">Answer ID 64."

Since the article has no information on what wood species the flutes were made from, there's a possibility that this was the problem.
 
2014-01-01 12:32:04 PM  

ChewbaccaJones: I read "flautist" and instantly pictured a guy that eats flautas for a living.
Now I'm craving flautas.
Thanks a farking heap, subby.


I read it as flatus and immediately thought of Les Claypool.

/now I'm listening to Frizzle Fry.
 
2014-01-01 12:32:53 PM  
userserve-ak.last.fm
Does not approve
 
2014-01-01 12:32:56 PM  

redmid17: So CBP destroyed his flutes. Possible explanations have been 1) Lacey Act violation or 2) Invasive species, but we haven't seen any proof CBP suspected or proved either. Basically we have a guy whose livelihood has been ruined because CBP had a reason but was too sickish to explain why or just sickish.

Does this strike anyone as acceptable?


we only have half of the story. i'd reserve judgement until the other side has their say, then make the call. as it is, it seems like some parts of the story are likely missing
 
2014-01-01 12:35:00 PM  

redmid17: g4lt: redmid17: g4lt: redmid17: g4lt: redmid17: Meanwhile nothing in the US CBP guidelines mentions wood at all:

http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/clearing/agri_prod_inus.xml

I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?

You didn't look very hard....  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacey_Act_of_1900

Now explain how the Lacey Act of 1900, which isn't new or unknown to me, would affect this particular "import of wood" given that none of it is alive and is actually permitted under CBP guidelines?

I'll wait.

Oh, I don't know, how about the entirety of section 8204, the section that gets its own special webpage at CBP?  Just because you weren't aware of things doesn't mean they don't exist.

So how exactly was this wood illegally harvested and did the CBP even assert, let alone prove, this before they destroyed? Typically even the US government likes to give some reason before dishing out punitive measures.

Ahh, so you're a psychic, knowing precisely what wood was used now?  The farkingflautist won't even say what they were made of...

I don't have to be a psychic. I'm expecting the government to follow some sort of method, a due process maybe, to determine whether or not these instruments violated some import law, which by CBP guidelines are to allow these kind of instruments into the country.


...unless they're made of a wood that is banned, either for Lacey act reasons or quarantine restrictions, which is impossible to ascertain because the government can't say anything and the farkingflautist won't.  Go right ahead and have your kangaroo trial of the eeeevul Customs agents though, because, you know, straw men are menat to be burned.
 
2014-01-01 12:35:32 PM  

TNel: Look people I know we don't want to have to declare shiat and have people digging into our suitcases but if you don't this can happen. I've never declared my alcohol and shiat when I come back but if they catch me they will take it and I wont sit here and biatch about people doing their job when I wasn't willing to fill out the stupid form that would allow me to just walk in with the stuff.


Why would you not declare that the alcohol?  Hell, filling out those forms gives me something to do for 5 minutes on the flight home from Europe.
 
2014-01-01 12:36:12 PM  
http://www.boston.com/names/2013/12/31/customs-officials-destroys-flu t e-virtuoso-instruments/fBlZdUpxw3EKWOzdyyvwXM/story.html

The flute virtuoso who performs regularly with The Boston Camerata lost 13 handmade flutes over the holidays when a US Customs official at New York's JFK Airport mistook the instruments for pieces of bamboo and destroyed them. Razgui, a Canadian citizen who lives some of the time in Brockton, had flown last week from Morocco to Boston, with stops in Madrid and New York. In New York, he says, an official opened his luggage and found the 13 flutelike instruments - 11 nays and two kawalas. Razgui says he had made all of the instruments using hard-to-find reeds. "They said this is an agriculture item," said Razgui, who was not present when his bag was opened. "I fly with them in and out all the time and this is the first time there has been a problem. This is my life." When his baggage arrived in Boston, the instruments were gone. He was instead given a number to call. "They told me they were destroyed," he says. "Nobody talked to me. They said I have to write a letter to the Department of Agriculture in Washington, D.C. This is horrible. I don't know what to do. I've never written letters to people." -

Sweet. Love to see pre emptive enforcement of a regulation THAT DOESN'T APPLY. Even if it was bamboo, guess what CBP says about that:

Bamboo that is thoroughly dried and split or cut lengthwise (rendering it incapable of propagation) will be inspected upon entry and released.

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1359/~/importing-bamboo -i nto-the-us

Now I am not Nick Offerman or Bob Vila, but I imagine a carved instrument that has existed for several years would likely be thoroughly dried and cut/split, even if it weren't made out of bamboo.
 
2014-01-01 12:38:33 PM  

Snapper Carr: ChewbaccaJones: I read "flautist" and instantly pictured a guy that eats flautas for a living.Now I'm craving flautas.Thanks a farking heap, subby.

I read it as flatus and immediately thought of Les Claypool.


I read it as a flatulist from Canada and Terrance and Phillip came to my mind.
 
2014-01-01 12:38:59 PM  
For thos of you saying "he didn't even argue," here is a little more information.

Customs took them out of his bag without him being present and left a note saying his property had been confiscated, call this number. When he called the number, they told him his property had already been destroyed.

So yeah, he didn't have a chance to argue with customs over it.
 
2014-01-01 12:39:02 PM  

redmid17: http://www.boston.com/names/2013/12/31/customs-officials-destroys-flu t e-virtuoso-instruments/fBlZdUpxw3EKWOzdyyvwXM/story.html

The flute virtuoso who performs regularly with The Boston Camerata lost 13 handmade flutes over the holidays when a US Customs official at New York's JFK Airport mistook the instruments for pieces of bamboo and destroyed them. Razgui, a Canadian citizen who lives some of the time in Brockton, had flown last week from Morocco to Boston, with stops in Madrid and New York. In New York, he says, an official opened his luggage and found the 13 flutelike instruments - 11 nays and two kawalas. Razgui says he had made all of the instruments using hard-to-find reeds. "They said this is an agriculture item," said Razgui, who was not present when his bag was opened. "I fly with them in and out all the time and this is the first time there has been a problem. This is my life." When his baggage arrived in Boston, the instruments were gone. He was instead given a number to call. "They told me they were destroyed," he says. "Nobody talked to me. They said I have to write a letter to the Department of Agriculture in Washington, D.C. This is horrible. I don't know what to do. I've never written letters to people." -

Sweet. Love to see pre emptive enforcement of a regulation THAT DOESN'T APPLY. Even if it was bamboo, guess what CBP says about that:

Bamboo that is thoroughly dried and split or cut lengthwise (rendering it incapable of propagation) will be inspected upon entry and released.

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1359/~/importing-bamboo -i nto-the-us

Now I am not Nick Offerman or Bob Vila, but I imagine a carved instrument that has existed for several years would likely be thoroughly dried and cut/split, even if it weren't made out of bamboo.


CBP searches bags in the presence of the passenger.  I've been there, done that, and witnessed it for myself.  If he wasn't there, then that opens up a whole new set of issues.

This is still one-sided though, so nothing changes for me.  Can't ring the rage alarm when I don't have the full story.
 
2014-01-01 12:40:17 PM  
I am disappoint. 124 posts and no I an Anderson until I post his pic?


Joe Peanut: AgentKGB: [images01.olx.com image 625x469]

Agricultural products...

[www.benandsebastian.com image 251x396]


That thing must have been hideous to wear. I have a pic of an early prosthetic leg that was all brass and leather. Those must have been agonizing to walk around in all day.
 
2014-01-01 12:40:46 PM  

pueblonative: badhatharry: pueblonative: badhatharry: Rules are rules. Just followin' the rules.

Yeah, we should all break the rules whenever we want or because we think it's dumb and know better than the people who put together the laws in the first place.  I mean it's not as if these laws aren't put together after gathering the input of interested parties and through a formalized system anyway.


/anarchy ain't freedom
//anarchy is slavery
///slashies is free

Yes, stupid rules need to be ignored. Who decides which rules are stupid? We, the people. Specifically, the people on my jury.

Hate to break it to you, but usually there's this process when seating a jury called voir dire that weeds out people who are incompetent or who like to use things like jury nullification.  So no, you don't get a jury of good ol' boys who think they can decide what the law is or isn't.


Criminal trials do weed out free thinking individuals. I am sure this guy will sue for a lot of money. We will see what the civil jury has to say about these rules.
 
2014-01-01 12:41:39 PM  

pyrotek85: pueblonative: So his ignorance of what is in the laws should be an excuse.  Wonder if that's ever been ruled on by the courts?

I agree with that in principle, but how far can you take it when we have tens of thousands of laws? Yeah, laws that are  malum in se in nature you don't have an excuse for not knowing, but most of this crap is  malum prohibitum. There's no way to know about every obscure law, or when TSA is suddenly to going to interpret the law differently on the spot.


Know how I know you are a 1L?
 
2014-01-01 12:42:07 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: TNel: Look people I know we don't want to have to declare shiat and have people digging into our suitcases but if you don't this can happen. I've never declared my alcohol and shiat when I come back but if they catch me they will take it and I wont sit here and biatch about people doing their job when I wasn't willing to fill out the stupid form that would allow me to just walk in with the stuff.

Why would you not declare that the alcohol?  Hell, filling out those forms gives me something to do for 5 minutes on the flight home from Europe.


Last time I declared something -- a 2/3 full bottle of tequila from Mexico -- it earned me a 45 minute session with CBP while they rifled through my bags.

"Why do you have a makeup kit?"
"My girlfriend and I shared a suitcase."
"Where is she?"
" Outside of the customs area because you told her she couldn't wait inside of it for me."

" Why do you have all of this beach stuff. It's 30 degrees outside with 6" of snow on the ground."
"I was coming back from Mexico."

When I don't declare things in my suitcase, I walk through customs in about 5 seconds. I'm more than happy to pay taxes on what I need to but the needless, stupid questioning and piece by piece breakdown of my luggage isn't helping anyone.
 
2014-01-01 12:42:18 PM  
"destroyed" eh?  Give it a few days and start watching ebay and the craigslist local to the airport's area, you're going to find them and you're going to find one of those mouth breathers who works at the airport is selling them.
 
2014-01-01 12:42:26 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: TNel: Look people I know we don't want to have to declare shiat and have people digging into our suitcases but if you don't this can happen. I've never declared my alcohol and shiat when I come back but if they catch me they will take it and I wont sit here and biatch about people doing their job when I wasn't willing to fill out the stupid form that would allow me to just walk in with the stuff.

Why would you not declare that the alcohol?  Hell, filling out those forms gives me something to do for 5 minutes on the flight home from Europe.


How can you not declare booze unless you have it wrapped in plastic buried in your suitcase wrapped in your dirty undies.

I round trip Colombia all the time and I declare booze, coffee, sweets, all on the little paper, and my shiat never gets searched and TSA and customs are nice as hell to me.

People who like to break the rules who then get farked with are the first ones to scream discrimination.
 
2014-01-01 12:42:35 PM  

redmid17: I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?


They're twunts?
 
2014-01-01 12:42:42 PM  

redmid17: http://www.boston.com/names/2013/12/31/customs-officials-destroys-flu t e-virtuoso-instruments/fBlZdUpxw3EKWOzdyyvwXM/story.html

The flute virtuoso who performs regularly with The Boston Camerata lost 13 handmade flutes over the holidays when a US Customs official at New York's JFK Airport mistook the instruments for pieces of bamboo and destroyed them. Razgui, a Canadian citizen who lives some of the time in Brockton, had flown last week from Morocco to Boston, with stops in Madrid and New York. In New York, he says, an official opened his luggage and found the 13 flutelike instruments - 11 nays and two kawalas. Razgui says he had made all of the instruments using hard-to-find reeds. "They said this is an agriculture item," said Razgui, who was not present when his bag was opened. "I fly with them in and out all the time and this is the first time there has been a problem. This is my life." When his baggage arrived in Boston, the instruments were gone. He was instead given a number to call. "They told me they were destroyed," he says. "Nobody talked to me. They said I have to write a letter to the Department of Agriculture in Washington, D.C. This is horrible. I don't know what to do. I've never written letters to people." -

Sweet. Love to see pre emptive enforcement of a regulation THAT DOESN'T APPLY. Even if it was bamboo, guess what CBP says about that:

Bamboo that is thoroughly dried and split or cut lengthwise (rendering it incapable of propagation) will be inspected upon entry and released.

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1359/~/importing-bamboo -i nto-the-us

Now I am not Nick Offerman or Bob Vila, but I imagine a carved instrument that has existed for several years would likely be thoroughly dried and cut/split, even if it weren't made out of bamboo.



now I'm not flutegenieer, so I may be wrong,  but I suspect that  if you split it or cut it lengthwise, it's going to let all the flutey goodness out.
 
2014-01-01 12:43:03 PM  

Brosephus: redmid17: http://www.boston.com/names/2013/12/31/customs-officials-destroys-flu t e-virtuoso-instruments/fBlZdUpxw3EKWOzdyyvwXM/story.html

The flute virtuoso who performs regularly with The Boston Camerata lost 13 handmade flutes over the holidays when a US Customs official at New York's JFK Airport mistook the instruments for pieces of bamboo and destroyed them. Razgui, a Canadian citizen who lives some of the time in Brockton, had flown last week from Morocco to Boston, with stops in Madrid and New York. In New York, he says, an official opened his luggage and found the 13 flutelike instruments - 11 nays and two kawalas. Razgui says he had made all of the instruments using hard-to-find reeds. "They said this is an agriculture item," said Razgui, who was not present when his bag was opened. "I fly with them in and out all the time and this is the first time there has been a problem. This is my life." When his baggage arrived in Boston, the instruments were gone. He was instead given a number to call. "They told me they were destroyed," he says. "Nobody talked to me. They said I have to write a letter to the Department of Agriculture in Washington, D.C. This is horrible. I don't know what to do. I've never written letters to people." -

Sweet. Love to see pre emptive enforcement of a regulation THAT DOESN'T APPLY. Even if it was bamboo, guess what CBP says about that:

Bamboo that is thoroughly dried and split or cut lengthwise (rendering it incapable of propagation) will be inspected upon entry and released.

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1359/~/importing-bamboo -i nto-the-us

Now I am not Nick Offerman or Bob Vila, but I imagine a carved instrument that has existed for several years would likely be thoroughly dried and cut/split, even if it weren't made out of bamboo.

CBP searches bags in the presence of the passenger.  I've been there, done that, and witnessed it for myself.  If he wasn't there, then that opens up a whole new set of issues.

This ...


Fair enough, the rage alarm is fun to ring though.
 
2014-01-01 12:43:14 PM  
To add to my last post, why is the guy being coy about what the flutes were made of?

If it were me, and I were launching an internet outrage party, I'd lay my farking case out like Matlock, listing each and every flute and the type of wood or bamboo that they were made from and the pertinent import laws showing that they should NOT have been subject to any sort of ban.

And yet, he's just:

"The ney flute can be made with bamboo. Is that agricultural?"

Which sounds like some high schooler's attempt to be clever. "Yeah, you saw me drinking out of a Jim Beam bottle. But, how do you KNOW it was Jim Beam? It might have been an empty Jim Beam bottle that I poured sweet tea into!"
 
2014-01-01 12:44:42 PM  

g4lt: ...unless they're made of a wood that is banned, either for Lacey act reasons or quarantine restrictions, which is impossible to ascertain because the government can't say anything and the farkingflautist won't.  Go right ahead and have your kangaroo trial of the eeeevul Customs agents though, because, you know, straw men are menat to be burned.


In redmid's defense, he's not holding a kangaroo court - he's doing a hell of a job researching import laws and trying to determine the legal logic behind customs doing this to this guy. He's also the only one that's putting in any work to find out actual facts, so props to him for that.

As you say, however, without knowing what type of wood the flutes were made of, we're just speculating. This seems to be a critical detail the flautist is unwilling to discuss - considering his flutes were handmade, there's probably a good probability that they were made out of a rare or exotic species.
 
2014-01-01 12:45:29 PM  

Sticky Hands: redmid17: http://www.boston.com/names/2013/12/31/customs-officials-destroys-flu t e-virtuoso-instruments/fBlZdUpxw3EKWOzdyyvwXM/story.html

The flute virtuoso who performs regularly with The Boston Camerata lost 13 handmade flutes over the holidays when a US Customs official at New York's JFK Airport mistook the instruments for pieces of bamboo and destroyed them. Razgui, a Canadian citizen who lives some of the time in Brockton, had flown last week from Morocco to Boston, with stops in Madrid and New York. In New York, he says, an official opened his luggage and found the 13 flutelike instruments - 11 nays and two kawalas. Razgui says he had made all of the instruments using hard-to-find reeds. "They said this is an agriculture item," said Razgui, who was not present when his bag was opened. "I fly with them in and out all the time and this is the first time there has been a problem. This is my life." When his baggage arrived in Boston, the instruments were gone. He was instead given a number to call. "They told me they were destroyed," he says. "Nobody talked to me. They said I have to write a letter to the Department of Agriculture in Washington, D.C. This is horrible. I don't know what to do. I've never written letters to people." -

Sweet. Love to see pre emptive enforcement of a regulation THAT DOESN'T APPLY. Even if it was bamboo, guess what CBP says about that:

Bamboo that is thoroughly dried and split or cut lengthwise (rendering it incapable of propagation) will be inspected upon entry and released.

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1359/~/importing-bamboo -i nto-the-us

Now I am not Nick Offerman or Bob Vila, but I imagine a carved instrument that has existed for several years would likely be thoroughly dried and cut/split, even if it weren't made out of bamboo.


now I'm not flutegenieer, so I may be wrong,  but I suspect that  if you split it or cut it lengthwise, it's going to let all the flutey goodness out.


Bamboo grows up to 3" a day. You're going to have to trim or split it to get the rough size you want to carve. Otherwise you are going to be making a gigantic flute.
 
2014-01-01 12:45:43 PM  

pueblonative: r1niceboy: RussianPooper: pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.

Only 4 posts to get to the asshole apologist.

If there's one thing about natives of pueblos, they certainly know how to be submissive to the point of Ned Beatty.

Here's a experiment: go to another country bringing prohibited items and try out the "I didn't know the laws" excuse while asserting your rights and screaming about the fairness of the situation.  Then come back and tell us how many turkish prison cell rapes you experienced.


How 'bout you check your own laws. Unless it is determined that the item is made of an endangered species, finished manufactured items are fine to bring into the states. This includes musical instruments. The only requirement is that they be declared.
 
2014-01-01 12:45:55 PM  
Leather shoes and belt?  Sorry, agricultural products.  fark you.  Move on.
 
2014-01-01 12:47:04 PM  

badhatharry: pueblonative: badhatharry: pueblonative: badhatharry: Rules are rules. Just followin' the rules.

Yeah, we should all break the rules whenever we want or because we think it's dumb and know better than the people who put together the laws in the first place.  I mean it's not as if these laws aren't put together after gathering the input of interested parties and through a formalized system anyway.


/anarchy ain't freedom
//anarchy is slavery
///slashies is free

Yes, stupid rules need to be ignored. Who decides which rules are stupid? We, the people. Specifically, the people on my jury.

Hate to break it to you, but usually there's this process when seating a jury called voir dire that weeds out people who are incompetent or who like to use things like jury nullification.  So no, you don't get a jury of good ol' boys who think they can decide what the law is or isn't.

Criminal trials do weed out free thinking individuals. I am sure this guy will sue for a lot of money. We will see what the civil jury has to say about these rules.


Same exact thing that they will say in a criminal trial.  Assuming, of course, the government doesn't get it bounced because of sovereign immunity.


Elegy: For thos of you saying "he didn't even argue," here is a little more information.

Customs took them out of his bag without him being present and left a note saying his property had been confiscated, call this number. When he called the number, they told him his property had already been destroyed.

So yeah, he didn't have a chance to argue with customs over it.


So in one article, he's saying that he got a note.  In another he says that the customs official took it out in front of him.  Hmm, seems we have an unreliable narrator here.
 
2014-01-01 12:48:16 PM  

sleeps in trees: K3rmy: oldernell: That's why they're called WOODwinds.I wonder what they would do about bagpipes.

You realize a saxophone is a woodwind instrument, right?

next thing you will saying that all black people look the same

What's your point. So is a clarinet, silver flute, oboe etc. They are called woodwinds because originally they were made of wood. The exception is the sax but it is included because it has a reed.


It's almost like it uses a wooden reed and wind to make sound
 
2014-01-01 12:49:13 PM  
JFK... that explains so much.

CSB: The day after the Northeast blackout of 2003, we were flying out of JFK. We were luckier than most, in that our flight hadn't been delayed... but there were thousands of other disgruntled travelers who had been. The lines and the crowds were just short of insane.

In the midst of all of this, we were carrying our rather dazed and confused little hamsters in clear plastic traveling carriers. When we passed through the security checkpoint, the TSA agent asked us to open the carriers (which seemed a little silly, since you could see straight through them, but whatever). He then reached in and took the time to frisk one of them. Not pet... frisk. A hamster.
 
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