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(The Raw Story)   You're an internationally renowned flautist from Canada who lovingly crafts your flutes by hand. U.S. Customs officials: These are made of wood, which makes them agricultural products and therefore must be destroyed   (rawstory.com) divider line 318
    More: Asinine, U.S. Customs, customs officer, Measuring instrument, virtuoso, Canadian citizen, disc injury, John F. Kennedy International Airport  
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14330 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Jan 2014 at 11:20 AM (50 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



318 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-01-01 10:21:30 AM  
That's why they're called WOODwinds.I wonder what they would do about bagpipes.
 
2014-01-01 10:21:41 AM  
Barbarians at the gates.
 
2014-01-01 11:21:53 AM  
Assholes.
 
2014-01-01 11:21:59 AM  
It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.
 
2014-01-01 11:22:31 AM  
I was outraged until I saw the "Islamic scholar" part

Btw, why saw 10 in a million instead of 1 in 100,000?
 
2014-01-01 11:22:55 AM  
I'm sensing a theme in today's greenlights....
 
2014-01-01 11:23:07 AM  
Welcome to America, flautist--love it or leave it.  Customs agents are just a step above security guards
 
2014-01-01 11:24:24 AM  
So the same applies to guitars? Man, what a bunch of dicks.
 
2014-01-01 11:25:17 AM  
Sorry folks. It's the law of the land. Nothing can be done.
 
2014-01-01 11:25:18 AM  
There has to be more to this story. They don't routinely go around destroying everything made of wood.

Maybe this story was originally from the Onion or something.
 
2014-01-01 11:25:26 AM  
The TSA grabbed my skin flute once, but they let me keep it.
 
2014-01-01 11:26:37 AM  
This is not a very poplar law.
 
2014-01-01 11:26:41 AM  
Hurray for zero tolerance.

pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.


He claimed to have traveled with them many times. And really, who would think musical instruments would be grouped together with agricultural products?
 
2014-01-01 11:26:55 AM  
4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-01-01 11:26:55 AM  

symptomoftheuniverse: The TSA grabbed my skin flute once, but they let me keep it.


If they grab it three times they're playing with it.
 
2014-01-01 11:27:55 AM  
One cannot just flout the law much less make a career of it. Floutists.
 
2014-01-01 11:29:07 AM  
I read "flautist" and instantly pictured a guy that eats flautas for a living.
Now I'm craving flautas.
Thanks a farking heap, subby.
 
2014-01-01 11:30:25 AM  
A real Canadian would have said something like "Buddy, I am very disappointed in losing my flutes, eh."

If he were really mad, he may have frowned slightly.
 
2014-01-01 11:30:26 AM  
That blows.
 
2014-01-01 11:30:53 AM  

symptomoftheuniverse: The TSA grabbed my skin flute once, but they let me keep it.


Though I suspect they suggested you wash the darn thing now that they got the wrinkles out of it for you.
 
2014-01-01 11:31:19 AM  
Comment NSFW: This Sux So Big!!!Woulda typed this even were I not a musician myself (only sing, don't play anything but So Appreciate talents of those who do).
FangQ centrifugial bumblepuppy for Most Apt Cartoon just above.
 
2014-01-01 11:32:25 AM  

uncleacid: That blows.


You ain't just whistlin' Dixie
 
2014-01-01 11:35:07 AM  

Chevello: uncleacid: That blows.

You ain't just whistlin' Dixie



At Kennedy Airport in New York? Well, that would explain why they destroyed the flutes.
 
2014-01-01 11:35:25 AM  

oldernell: That's why they're called WOODwinds.I wonder what they would do about bagpipes.


You realize a saxophone is a woodwind instrument, right?

next thing you will saying that all black people look the same
 
2014-01-01 11:35:38 AM  

centrifugal bumblepuppy:


That pic is surprisingly accurate. At least where I lived in CO.
 
2014-01-01 11:36:15 AM  
Are we lining in a country with a "government of the people, by the people, and for the people" anymore? We find so much to be outraged about in our government, when are we going to affect some change? We certainly don't o it at the ballot box, we annually return 90-95% of our elected representatives to office. How, then, can we complain that our government farks us over? We practically beg them to do it.
 
2014-01-01 11:36:28 AM  

ChewbaccaJones: I read "flautist" and instantly pictured a guy that eats flautas for a living.
Now I'm craving flautas.
Thanks a farking heap, subby.


As long as they're the real thing and not glorified taquitos, I'm in.
 
2014-01-01 11:37:12 AM  
US CBP prides themselves on being assholes, even to USC's
 
2014-01-01 11:37:12 AM  
So much for traveling with my guitar.

Seriously, I'm with the "These guys are assholes" crowd here and you "it's the law" types should just go back to your bedrooms and let the NSA continue filming you or whatever.
 
2014-01-01 11:37:51 AM  

Mrbogey: Sorry folks. It's the law of the land. Nothing can be done.


Yep.  It's not like we have a method of changing laws with the times.and with experiences.  Heck, that could make a great profession.  We could have people who's job it is to write and update legislation.  We could call them. . .wait, I've got this one. . .legislators  And since they're writing the laws for us, we could select them by popular vote!


pyrotek85: Hurray for zero tolerance.

He claimed to have traveled with them many times. And really, who would think musical instruments would be grouped together with agricultural products?



So his ignorance of what is in the laws should be an excuse.  Wonder if that's ever been ruled on by the courts?
 
2014-01-01 11:37:56 AM  

K3rmy: oldernell: That's why they're called WOODwinds.I wonder what they would do about bagpipes.

You realize a saxophone is a woodwind instrument, right?

next thing you will saying that all black people look the same



Surely you can tell the men and women apart.
 
2014-01-01 11:38:15 AM  
Well, the dude is brown afterall.  His own damn fault to be flying while brown.
 
2014-01-01 11:38:38 AM  
Might have something to do with the Emerald Ash Borer. We're not even allowed to haul firewood from one county to another in most areas.
 
2014-01-01 11:39:11 AM  
Accept it, flautist fella. America is the greatest country in the world, and if you came here not realizing it's full of retards and bureaucrats that would require forms filled in triplicate and notarized before summoning an ambulance for their bleeding mother, that's your fault.
 
2014-01-01 11:40:01 AM  

The Pope of Manwich Village: This is not a very poplar law.


Not much point birching about it, though.
 
2014-01-01 11:41:13 AM  

pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.


Only 4 posts to get to the asshole apologist.
 
2014-01-01 11:41:37 AM  
FTFA "The ney flute could be made from bamboo, is that agricultural?".  Actually, yes http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/improvement/lawn-garden/4323342 .  The thing is, right then and there the reader should realize that there's more to this story than meets the eye (that, and the story is actually a press release from the alleged victim, no axe to grind there, amirite?).  First, misrepresenting bamboo as non-agricultural raises a BIG flag: dude doesn't even know about the woods he's allegedly using, which brings us to the second part: he said they COULD be made of bamboo, not that they were, sounds a LOT like a CYA.  There are a lot of woods that WILL get destroyed at the border, regardless of what it's been carved into, by Customs, most of which are because the wood in question is either an endangered species or the wood is harvested in a horribly unsustainable method, like clearcutting rainforests
 
2014-01-01 11:42:20 AM  

K3rmy: oldernell: That's why they're called WOODwinds.I wonder what they would do about bagpipes.

You realize a saxophone is a woodwind instrument, right?

next thing you will saying that all black people look the same


What's your point. So is a clarinet, silver flute, oboe etc. They are called woodwinds because originally they were made of wood. The exception is the sax but it is included because it has a reed.
 
2014-01-01 11:42:35 AM  
pueblonative:
So his ignorance of what is in the laws should be an excuse.  Wonder if that's ever been ruled on by the courts?

all right, i'll give you that one. now let's hear you defend the fact that they destroyed his priceless and harmless life's work on the spot.
 
2014-01-01 11:42:44 AM  

big pig peaches: There has to be more to this story. They don't routinely go around destroying everything made of wood.

Maybe this story was originally from the Onion or something.


It's just idiot customs agents being idiot customs agents.
 
2014-01-01 11:42:46 AM  
Screw that guy for not sticking up for himself.

Fark that - make them call a supervisor.  Create a ruckus.

If you just go "Oh Well" and give it up,,,
 
2014-01-01 11:43:11 AM  
and yet when *I'm* carrying wood during an encounter with the TSA they're all like "You tripped that alarm on purpose didn't you, pervert!  Just get on your damn plane you asshole!"
 
2014-01-01 11:43:13 AM  

g4lt: FTFA "The ney flute could be made from bamboo, is that agricultural?".  Actually, yes http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/improvement/lawn-garden/4323342 .  The thing is, right then and there the reader should realize that there's more to this story than meets the eye (that, and the story is actually a press release from the alleged victim, no axe to grind there, amirite?).  First, misrepresenting bamboo as non-agricultural raises a BIG flag: dude doesn't even know about the woods he's allegedly using, which brings us to the second part: he said they COULD be made of bamboo, not that they were, sounds a LOT like a CYA.  There are a lot of woods that WILL get destroyed at the border, regardless of what it's been carved into, by Customs, most of which are because the wood in question is either an endangered species or the wood is harvested in a horribly unsustainable method, like clearcutting rainforests


Please, Don't get in the way of the "gubm'nt is eeebil end of story" crowd with a bunch of little things like facts and evidence.
 
2014-01-01 11:43:16 AM  
Inconsolable:

malialitman.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-01-01 11:43:17 AM  
He's probably pining for the day when he still had his flutes.
 
2014-01-01 11:43:33 AM  
Meanwhile nothing in the US CBP guidelines mentions wood at all:

http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/clearing/agri_prod_inus.xml

I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?
 
2014-01-01 11:43:47 AM  

RussianPooper: pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.

Only 4 posts to get to the asshole apologist.


If there's one thing about natives of pueblos, they certainly know how to be submissive to the point of Ned Beatty.
 
2014-01-01 11:44:28 AM  

TemporarySanity: pueblonative:
So his ignorance of what is in the laws should be an excuse.  Wonder if that's ever been ruled on by the courts?

all right, i'll give you that one. now let's hear you defend the fact that they destroyed his priceless and harmless life's work on the spot.


FTA, sounds like the dude gave up without a fight.  His loss, but at least he has something to work on for the rest of his life.
 
2014-01-01 11:44:32 AM  

Rigger1955: The Pope of Manwich Village: This is not a very poplar law.

Not much point birching about it, though.


Beech, beech, beech.
 
2014-01-01 11:46:29 AM  

r1niceboy: RussianPooper: pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.

Only 4 posts to get to the asshole apologist.

If there's one thing about natives of pueblos, they certainly know how to be submissive to the point of Ned Beatty.


Here's a experiment: go to another country bringing prohibited items and try out the "I didn't know the laws" excuse while asserting your rights and screaming about the fairness of the situation.  Then come back and tell us how many turkish prison cell rapes you experienced.
 
2014-01-01 11:47:31 AM  

sleeps in trees: K3rmy: oldernell: That's why they're called WOODwinds.I wonder what they would do about bagpipes.

You realize a saxophone is a woodwind instrument, right?

next thing you will saying that all black people look the same

What's your point. So is a clarinet, silver flute, oboe etc. They are called woodwinds because originally they were made of wood. The exception is the sax but it is included because it has a reed.


Edjumacation time!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodwind_instrument
 
2014-01-01 11:47:45 AM  

pueblonative: So his ignorance of what is in the laws should be an excuse.  Wonder if that's ever been ruled on by the courts?


I agree with that in principle, but how far can you take it when we have tens of thousands of laws? Yeah, laws that are  malum in se in nature you don't have an excuse for not knowing, but most of this crap is  malum prohibitum. There's no way to know about every obscure law, or when TSA is suddenly to going to interpret the law differently on the spot.
 
2014-01-01 11:47:51 AM  
HUh huh huh, "wood."
 
2014-01-01 11:47:53 AM  
Nuttin new here, move along.
This is a long time problem, hardly the first episode.
Flautist was equally stupid or probably knew good and well what would happen.
 
2014-01-01 11:47:55 AM  

oldernell: That's why they're called WOODwinds.I wonder what they would do about bagpipes.


s2.dmcdn.net

He put up a fight granny, but clean living prevailed!
 
2014-01-01 11:48:15 AM  

redmid17: Meanwhile nothing in the US CBP guidelines mentions wood at all:

http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/clearing/agri_prod_inus.xml

I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?


Well found some stuff:

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1166

Finished, manufactured, or naturally weathered products including carvings, driftwood, furniture, picture frames, and musical instruments, and plywood are allowed into the U.S., but you need to declare them so the items can be inspected by CBP.

So it looks like they destroyed his flutes for no reason and probably violated their own rules in doing so.
 
2014-01-01 11:48:36 AM  

The Pope of Manwich Village: Rigger1955: The Pope of Manwich Village: This is not a very poplar law.

Not much point birching about it, though.

Beech, beech, beech.


He should have told customs to kiss his ash
 
2014-01-01 11:49:52 AM  
Canadians. Sheesh.

songofmypeople.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-01-01 11:51:35 AM  

edmo: So much for traveling with my guitar.

Seriously, I'm with the "These guys are assholes" crowd here and you "it's the law" types should just go back to your bedrooms and let the NSA continue filming you or whatever.


If it's a Gibson, I don't blame you.  Must suck to to know that your guitar is subject to destruction at the border because it looks really cool with the ebony.  http://www.guitarworld.com/gibson-agrees-pay-350000-penalties-loses-s e ized-imported-ebony
 
2014-01-01 11:51:55 AM  

pueblonative: r1niceboy: RussianPooper: pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.

Only 4 posts to get to the asshole apologist.

If there's one thing about natives of pueblos, they certainly know how to be submissive to the point of Ned Beatty.

Here's a experiment: go to another country bringing prohibited items and try out the "I didn't know the laws" excuse while asserting your rights and screaming about the fairness of the situation.  Then come back and tell us how many turkish prison cell rapes you experienced.


I've been to lots of countries, none of which took perverse pleasure in enforcing asinine laws. Now, please, explain the harm that a carved piece of wood could do. Please feel free to compare it to, say, a species of invasive fish.
 
2014-01-01 11:52:08 AM  

The Pope of Manwich Village: This is not a very poplar law.


Thanks, Obamboo.
 
2014-01-01 11:52:25 AM  

pueblonative: r1niceboy: RussianPooper: pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.

Only 4 posts to get to the asshole apologist.

If there's one thing about natives of pueblos, they certainly know how to be submissive to the point of Ned Beatty.

Here's a experiment: go to another country bringing prohibited items and try out the "I didn't know the laws" excuse while asserting your rights and screaming about the fairness of the situation.  Then come back and tell us how many turkish prison cell rapes you experienced.


https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1166

Finished, manufactured, or naturally weathered products including carvings, driftwood, furniture, picture frames, and musical instruments, and plywood are allowed into the U.S., but you need to declare them so the items can be inspected by CBP.

Also checked this: the USDA wood import guidelines  http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/manuals/ports/download s /miscellaneous.pdf

didn't find anything there either
 
2014-01-01 11:54:11 AM  

r1niceboy: pueblonative: r1niceboy: RussianPooper: pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.

Only 4 posts to get to the asshole apologist.

If there's one thing about natives of pueblos, they certainly know how to be submissive to the point of Ned Beatty.

Here's a experiment: go to another country bringing prohibited items and try out the "I didn't know the laws" excuse while asserting your rights and screaming about the fairness of the situation.  Then come back and tell us how many turkish prison cell rapes you experienced.

I've been to lots of countries, none of which took perverse pleasure in enforcing asinine laws. Now, please, explain the harm that a carved piece of wood could do. Please feel free to compare it to, say, a species of invasive fish.


Maybe it had been to band camp and smelled like fish
 
2014-01-01 11:54:11 AM  
images01.olx.com

Agricultural products...
 
2014-01-01 11:54:15 AM  
God Bless America in all its glorious idiocy.
 
2014-01-01 11:54:19 AM  

K3rmy: sleeps in trees: K3rmy: oldernell: That's why they're called WOODwinds.I wonder what they would do about bagpipes.

You realize a saxophone is a woodwind instrument, right?

next thing you will saying that all black people look the same

What's your point. So is a clarinet, silver flute, oboe etc. They are called woodwinds because originally they were made of wood. The exception is the sax but it is included because it has a reed.

Edjumacation time!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodwind_instrument


Actually dude, there are two schools of thought. Flutes were originally made of wood. The cork is a recent. So whatever
 
2014-01-01 11:55:47 AM  
Considering the source of the story is RawSewage, I'm sure there is more to this story.
 
2014-01-01 11:55:55 AM  
Just play the song of time backwards and go back tO 3 days before you took the flight
 
2014-01-01 11:56:00 AM  

pueblonative: r1niceboy: RussianPooper: pueblonative:

Here's a experiment: go to another country bringing prohibited items and try out the "I didn't know the laws" excuse while asserting your rights and screaming about the fairness of the situation.  Then come back and tell us how many turkish prison cell rapes you experienced.


So TSA gets to pretend the U.S. is Turkey? Seriously. You guys used to be cool.

TSA are out of control. The rest of the world knows it, most of your citizens know it, and you should probably wake up to it sparky.
 
2014-01-01 11:58:03 AM  
If we have all learned anything at all in 2013*, it is that any story someone tells on the Internet is completely true exactly as told and there is no further information that could be of any use no matter what, ever, so there.

*also 2012, 2011, 2010. But not 2009 - buncha dirty liars the lot of 'em.
 
2014-01-01 11:58:11 AM  

voodoohotdog: So TSA gets to pretend the U.S. is Turkey?


TSA != Customs.
 
2014-01-01 11:58:47 AM  

Odoriferous Queef: Considering the source of the story is RawSewage, I'm sure there is more to this story.


it's not hard to find another source y'know.

http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2013/12/outrage-at-jfk-as-cus to ms-men-smash-flutes.html
 
2014-01-01 11:59:42 AM  

redmid17: Meanwhile nothing in the US CBP guidelines mentions wood at all:

http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/clearing/agri_prod_inus.xml

I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?


You didn't look very hard....  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacey_Act_of_1900
 
2014-01-01 12:00:14 PM  

ParaHandy: US CBP prides themselves on being assholes, even to USC's


Only when the USCs are assholes to the US CBP.  I've never had a problem with them, and they've never had a problem with me.
 
2014-01-01 12:00:18 PM  
FTA: Razgui also told Lebrecht that, as a non-citizen, he was reluctant to confront U.S. Customs officials.
You don't say?
 
2014-01-01 12:00:29 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Barbarians at the gates.


static2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-01-01 12:01:37 PM  

g4lt: redmid17: Meanwhile nothing in the US CBP guidelines mentions wood at all:

http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/clearing/agri_prod_inus.xml

I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?

You didn't look very hard....  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacey_Act_of_1900


Now explain how the Lacey Act of 1900, which isn't new or unknown to me, would affect this particular "import of wood" given that none of it is alive and is actually permitted under CBP guidelines?

I'll wait.
 
2014-01-01 12:01:52 PM  

WTFDYW: Might have something to do with the Emerald Ash Borer. We're not even allowed to haul firewood from one county to another in most areas.


Quit speaking the truth here.  Most posters appear to enjoy bashing the workers as opposed to seeking the truth.
 
2014-01-01 12:02:22 PM  
img.photobucket.com

excuse me, are those flutes made out of.... wood?
 
2014-01-01 12:02:49 PM  
Shouldn't this sort of decision have been made by Customs, not the TSA?
 
2014-01-01 12:03:16 PM  

Crid: Shouldn't this sort of decision have been made by Customs, not the TSA?


It was.
 
2014-01-01 12:03:53 PM  

redmid17: Meanwhile nothing in the US CBP guidelines mentions wood at all:

http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/clearing/agri_prod_inus.xml

I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?


Possible pest contamination due to not being properly finished or fumigated.  If you don't have the paperwork to show that the wood has been treated, the wood may not be permitted into the country.
 
2014-01-01 12:05:00 PM  

Crid: Shouldn't this sort of decision have been made by Customs, not the TSA?


Customs did call it. They out-TSAed the TSA in douchebaggery.
 
2014-01-01 12:05:08 PM  
They destroy harmless flutes but give a free pass to vuvuzelas? This is an outrage!
 
2014-01-01 12:05:09 PM  
The solution to out-of-control government is more government.
 
2014-01-01 12:05:29 PM  

voodoohotdog: pueblonative: r1niceboy: RussianPooper: pueblonative:

Here's a experiment: go to another country bringing prohibited items and try out the "I didn't know the laws" excuse while asserting your rights and screaming about the fairness of the situation.  Then come back and tell us how many turkish prison cell rapes you experienced.

So TSA gets to pretend the U.S. is Turkey? Seriously. You guys used to be cool.

TSA are

USA is out of control. The rest of the world knows it, most of your citizens know it, and you should probably wake up to it sparky.

More better.
 
2014-01-01 12:06:50 PM  
It does appear that the TSA agents where correct.  Agricultural products must be destroyed.....if the person who wishes to fly is a p*ssy and is too dumb to mail his precious goods.  He DID have options.   TSA is right about some things...stop the witch hunt.
 
2014-01-01 12:07:05 PM  

r1niceboy: pueblonative: r1niceboy: RussianPooper: pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.

Only 4 posts to get to the asshole apologist.

If there's one thing about natives of pueblos, they certainly know how to be submissive to the point of Ned Beatty.

Here's a experiment: go to another country bringing prohibited items and try out the "I didn't know the laws" excuse while asserting your rights and screaming about the fairness of the situation.  Then come back and tell us how many turkish prison cell rapes you experienced.

I've been to lots of countries, none of which took perverse pleasure in enforcing asinine laws. Now, please, explain the harm that a carved piece of wood could do. Please feel free to compare it to, say, a species of invasive fish.


http://www.emeraldashborer.info/#sthash.dZwYnM8p.dpbs

http://www.ohiochapterisa.org/news/87453/
 
2014-01-01 12:07:57 PM  
 
2014-01-01 12:09:24 PM  

Brosephus: r1niceboy: pueblonative: r1niceboy: RussianPooper: pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.

Only 4 posts to get to the asshole apologist.

If there's one thing about natives of pueblos, they certainly know how to be submissive to the point of Ned Beatty.

Here's a experiment: go to another country bringing prohibited items and try out the "I didn't know the laws" excuse while asserting your rights and screaming about the fairness of the situation.  Then come back and tell us how many turkish prison cell rapes you experienced.

I've been to lots of countries, none of which took perverse pleasure in enforcing asinine laws. Now, please, explain the harm that a carved piece of wood could do. Please feel free to compare it to, say, a species of invasive fish.

http://www.emeraldashborer.info/#sthash.dZwYnM8p.dpbs

http://www.ohiochapterisa.org/news/87453/


How exactly would it be difficult for CBP to examine carved wooden flutes for the presence of beetles? It's not as if they were being brought into the country by truck because they weighed several tons.
 
2014-01-01 12:09:25 PM  
After the guy realized his flutes were being destroyed, did he cry out an F6 with trill and heavy vibrato?
 
2014-01-01 12:09:57 PM  
asset.soup.ioobligatory
 
2014-01-01 12:10:46 PM  
WTF is a flaut?
 
2014-01-01 12:11:02 PM  

pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.


bullshiat. It is perfectly legal to carry instruments made from wood in and out of the country, they are not "agricultural products", the custom officials were WRONG. What's more, you should be outraged that this kind of crap is becoming common place(and being done in your name) and Razgui should sue.
 
2014-01-01 12:11:06 PM  

TemporarySanity: Odoriferous Queef: Considering the source of the story is RawSewage, I'm sure there is more to this story.

it's not hard to find another source y'know.

http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2013/12/outrage-at-jfk-as-cus to ms-men-smash-flutes.html


And a very well written article including points of view of both the artist and the customs officials who destroyed these flutes. . .oh wait.
 
2014-01-01 12:11:54 PM  
Well if he makes his own flutes, can't he just make more?
 
2014-01-01 12:12:40 PM  

Voiceofreason01: pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.

bullshiat. It is perfectly legal to carry instruments made from wood in and out of the country, they are not "agricultural products", the custom officials were WRONG. What's more, you should be outraged that this kind of crap is becoming common place(and being done in your name) and Razgui should sue.


Didn't know we had a Fark Lawyer on.  Please give your bar number and the cite of the law that states this.
 
2014-01-01 12:14:02 PM  

redmid17: Finished, manufactured, or naturally weathered products including carvings, driftwood, furniture, picture frames, and musical instruments, and plywood are allowed into the U.S., but you need to declare them so the items can be inspected by CBP.

So it looks like they destroyed his flutes for no reason and probably violated their own rules in doing so.



'I told them I had these instruments for many years and flew with them in and out,' he said. 'There were 11 instruments in all. They told me they were agricultural products and they had to be destroyed. There was nothing I could do. The ney flute can be made with bamboo. Is that agricultural?'
Bouzemaa was both upset and unwilling to risk a confrontation with the US authorities.  We did not press him for further particulars. He does not know what to do next. But he does appear to be the victim of state injustice. What do the lawyers among our readers think he should do?

http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2013/12/jfk-customs-destroyed -1 1-of-my-instruments.html

I bolded the important part for you, it seems like the guy never declared the items.  He then never argued so they probably assumed he didn't care much about them so they took them.

Look people I know we don't want to have to declare shiat and have people digging into our suitcases but if you don't this can happen.  I've never declared my alcohol and shiat when I come back but if they catch me they will take it and I wont sit here and biatch about people doing their job when I wasn't willing to fill out the stupid form that would allow me to just walk in with the stuff.
 
2014-01-01 12:15:41 PM  
Bush's fault.
 
2014-01-01 12:15:41 PM  

redmid17: g4lt: redmid17: Meanwhile nothing in the US CBP guidelines mentions wood at all:

http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/clearing/agri_prod_inus.xml

I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?

You didn't look very hard....  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacey_Act_of_1900

Now explain how the Lacey Act of 1900, which isn't new or unknown to me, would affect this particular "import of wood" given that none of it is alive and is actually permitted under CBP guidelines?

I'll wait.


Oh, I don't know, how about the entirety of section 8204, the section that gets its own special webpage at CBP?  Just because you weren't aware of things doesn't mean they don't exist.
 
2014-01-01 12:17:16 PM  
Rules are rules. Just followin' the rules.
 
2014-01-01 12:19:00 PM  

oldernell: That's why they're called WOODwinds.I wonder what they would do about bagpipes.


If they're old enough, they get seized because of the ivory fittings.
 
2014-01-01 12:19:04 PM  

pueblonative: Voiceofreason01: pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.

bullshiat. It is perfectly legal to carry instruments made from wood in and out of the country, they are not "agricultural products", the custom officials were WRONG. What's more, you should be outraged that this kind of crap is becoming common place(and being done in your name) and Razgui should sue.

Didn't know we had a Fark Lawyer on.  Please give your bar number and the cite of the law that states this.


Well there is their own website...

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1166
 
2014-01-01 12:19:43 PM  

g4lt: redmid17: g4lt: redmid17: Meanwhile nothing in the US CBP guidelines mentions wood at all:

http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/clearing/agri_prod_inus.xml

I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?

You didn't look very hard....  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacey_Act_of_1900

Now explain how the Lacey Act of 1900, which isn't new or unknown to me, would affect this particular "import of wood" given that none of it is alive and is actually permitted under CBP guidelines?

I'll wait.

Oh, I don't know, how about the entirety of section 8204, the section that gets its own special webpage at CBP?  Just because you weren't aware of things doesn't mean they don't exist.


So how exactly was this wood illegally harvested and did the CBP even assert, let alone prove, this before they destroyed? Typically even the US government likes to give some reason before dishing out punitive measures.
 
2014-01-01 12:20:58 PM  

redmid17: Brosephus: r1niceboy: pueblonative: r1niceboy: RussianPooper: pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.

Only 4 posts to get to the asshole apologist.

If there's one thing about natives of pueblos, they certainly know how to be submissive to the point of Ned Beatty.

Here's a experiment: go to another country bringing prohibited items and try out the "I didn't know the laws" excuse while asserting your rights and screaming about the fairness of the situation.  Then come back and tell us how many turkish prison cell rapes you experienced.

I've been to lots of countries, none of which took perverse pleasure in enforcing asinine laws. Now, please, explain the harm that a carved piece of wood could do. Please feel free to compare it to, say, a species of invasive fish.

http://www.emeraldashborer.info/#sthash.dZwYnM8p.dpbs

http://www.ohiochapterisa.org/news/87453/

How exactly would it be difficult for CBP to examine carved wooden flutes for the presence of beetles? It's not as if they were being brought into the country by truck because they weighed several tons.


It's not difficult at all.  They would be visually inspected, and if one even has a hint of damage by pest, they would all be destroyed to prohibit the possibility of any pests being introduced into this country.  Likewise, if there are any indicators, such as exoskeleton that has been molted, they will be destroyed even without the presence of the pest.  After pouring several billions of dollars into fighting invasive species, the government thought it would be better to prevent them from entering as opposed to spending billions fighting them after they arrive.

Check out information on the Khapra beetle, Emerald Ash Borer, Mediterranean Fruit Fly, Gypsy Moth, and other invasive species that has cost us billions of dollars.
 
2014-01-01 12:21:24 PM  

badhatharry: Rules are rules. Just followin' the rules.


Yeah, we should all break the rules whenever we want or because we think it's dumb and know better than the people who put together the laws in the first place.  I mean it's not as if these laws aren't put together after gathering the input of interested parties and through a formalized system anyway.


/anarchy ain't freedom
//anarchy is slavery
///slashies is free
 
2014-01-01 12:21:44 PM  
Sounds like the guy was bamboozled out of his flutes.
 
2014-01-01 12:22:57 PM  

pueblonative: Voiceofreason01: pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.

bullshiat. It is perfectly legal to carry instruments made from wood in and out of the country, they are not "agricultural products", the custom officials were WRONG. What's more, you should be outraged that this kind of crap is becoming common place(and being done in your name) and Razgui should sue.

Didn't know we had a Fark Lawyer on.  Please give your bar number and the cite of the law that states this.


Here are the Border Patrol guidelines about bringing agricultural products into the country. Note how it doesn't mention dead wood that has been processed into a musical instrument.
 
2014-01-01 12:23:10 PM  

TNel: redmid17: Finished, manufactured, or naturally weathered products including carvings, driftwood, furniture, picture frames, and musical instruments, and plywood are allowed into the U.S., but you need to declare them so the items can be inspected by CBP.

So it looks like they destroyed his flutes for no reason and probably violated their own rules in doing so.


'I told them I had these instruments for many years and flew with them in and out,' he said. 'There were 11 instruments in all. They told me they were agricultural products and they had to be destroyed. There was nothing I could do. The ney flute can be made with bamboo. Is that agricultural?'
Bouzemaa was both upset and unwilling to risk a confrontation with the US authorities.  We did not press him for further particulars. He does not know what to do next. But he does appear to be the victim of state injustice. What do the lawyers among our readers think he should do?

http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2013/12/jfk-customs-destroyed -1 1-of-my-instruments.html

I bolded the important part for you, it seems like the guy never declared the items.  He then never argued so they probably assumed he didn't care much about them so they took them.

Look people I know we don't want to have to declare shiat and have people digging into our suitcases but if you don't this can happen.  I've never declared my alcohol and shiat when I come back but if they catch me they will take it and I wont sit here and biatch about people doing their job when I wasn't willing to fill out the stupid form that would allow me to just walk in with the stuff.


I got that. He should have declared them, though I admit I probably wouldn't have thought twice about wooden instruments needing to be declared, but it's still grossly overreactive. They know he's traveled with them for years and how he makes his living. If they destroyed them because he didn't declare them instead of them proving a tangible threat or Lacey Act violation, that's still completely wrong. Give him a fine and move on.
 
2014-01-01 12:25:31 PM  

pueblonative: badhatharry: Rules are rules. Just followin' the rules.

Yeah, we should all break the rules whenever we want or because we think it's dumb and know better than the people who put together the laws in the first place.  I mean it's not as if these laws aren't put together after gathering the input of interested parties and through a formalized system anyway.


/anarchy ain't freedom
//anarchy is slavery
///slashies is free


Yes, stupid rules need to be ignored. Who decides which rules are stupid? We, the people. Specifically, the people on my jury.
 
2014-01-01 12:26:11 PM  

redmid17: TNel: redmid17: Finished, manufactured, or naturally weathered products including carvings, driftwood, furniture, picture frames, and musical instruments, and plywood are allowed into the U.S., but you need to declare them so the items can be inspected by CBP.

So it looks like they destroyed his flutes for no reason and probably violated their own rules in doing so.


'I told them I had these instruments for many years and flew with them in and out,' he said. 'There were 11 instruments in all. They told me they were agricultural products and they had to be destroyed. There was nothing I could do. The ney flute can be made with bamboo. Is that agricultural?'
Bouzemaa was both upset and unwilling to risk a confrontation with the US authorities.  We did not press him for further particulars. He does not know what to do next. But he does appear to be the victim of state injustice. What do the lawyers among our readers think he should do?

http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2013/12/jfk-customs-destroyed -1 1-of-my-instruments.html

I bolded the important part for you, it seems like the guy never declared the items.  He then never argued so they probably assumed he didn't care much about them so they took them.

Look people I know we don't want to have to declare shiat and have people digging into our suitcases but if you don't this can happen.  I've never declared my alcohol and shiat when I come back but if they catch me they will take it and I wont sit here and biatch about people doing their job when I wasn't willing to fill out the stupid form that would allow me to just walk in with the stuff.

I got that. He should have declared them, though I admit I probably wouldn't have thought twice about wooden instruments needing to be declared, but it's still grossly overreactive. They know he's traveled with them for years and how he makes his living. If they destroyed them because he didn't declare them instead of them proving a tangible threat or Lacey Act violation ...


Nice to see you came to that conclusion after thoroughly investigating all sides  of the story as reported on in the original link.
 
2014-01-01 12:26:16 PM  
This is what happens when you leave it to high school drop outs to interpret complicated polices like those governing international travel.  I say its high time we stop this bull shiat from cointinuing, never a month goes by without some horror story of some invaluable instrument getting destroyed on these trips due to the neglectful actions of these mouth breathers.

We must stop musicians from touring.
 
2014-01-01 12:27:03 PM  

Brosephus: redmid17: Brosephus: r1niceboy: pueblonative: r1niceboy: RussianPooper: pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.

Only 4 posts to get to the asshole apologist.

If there's one thing about natives of pueblos, they certainly know how to be submissive to the point of Ned Beatty.

Here's a experiment: go to another country bringing prohibited items and try out the "I didn't know the laws" excuse while asserting your rights and screaming about the fairness of the situation.  Then come back and tell us how many turkish prison cell rapes you experienced.

I've been to lots of countries, none of which took perverse pleasure in enforcing asinine laws. Now, please, explain the harm that a carved piece of wood could do. Please feel free to compare it to, say, a species of invasive fish.

http://www.emeraldashborer.info/#sthash.dZwYnM8p.dpbs

http://www.ohiochapterisa.org/news/87453/

How exactly would it be difficult for CBP to examine carved wooden flutes for the presence of beetles? It's not as if they were being brought into the country by truck because they weighed several tons.

It's not difficult at all.  They would be visually inspected, and if one even has a hint of damage by pest, they would all be destroyed to prohibit the possibility of any pests being introduced into this country.  Likewise, if there are any indicators, such as exoskeleton that has been molted, they will be destroyed even without the presence of the pest.  After pouring several billions of dollars into fighting invasive species, the government thought it would be better to prevent them from entering as opposed to spending billions fighting them after they arrive.

Check out information on the Khapra beetle, Emerald Ash Borer, Mediterranean Fruit Fly, Gypsy Moth, and other invasive species that has cost us billions of dollars.


I don't have to read up on invasive species. I'm well aware of how pervasive they can be (asian carp, zebra mussels, pythons in south florida, et al). My point is, they'd have at least told him if they saw evidence of any of that (or should have told him).

So CBP destroyed his flutes. Possible explanations have been 1) Lacey Act violation or 2) Invasive species, but we haven't seen any proof CBP suspected or proved either. Basically we have a guy whose livelihood has been ruined because CBP had a reason but was too sickish to explain why or just sickish.

Does this strike anyone as acceptable?
 
2014-01-01 12:27:15 PM  

redmid17: g4lt: redmid17: g4lt: redmid17: Meanwhile nothing in the US CBP guidelines mentions wood at all:

http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/clearing/agri_prod_inus.xml

I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?

You didn't look very hard....  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacey_Act_of_1900

Now explain how the Lacey Act of 1900, which isn't new or unknown to me, would affect this particular "import of wood" given that none of it is alive and is actually permitted under CBP guidelines?

I'll wait.

Oh, I don't know, how about the entirety of section 8204, the section that gets its own special webpage at CBP?  Just because you weren't aware of things doesn't mean they don't exist.

So how exactly was this wood illegally harvested and did the CBP even assert, let alone prove, this before they destroyed? Typically even the US government likes to give some reason before dishing out punitive measures.


Ahh, so you're a psychic, knowing precisely what wood was used now?  The farkingflautist won't even say what they were made of...
 
2014-01-01 12:27:32 PM  

AgentKGB: [images01.olx.com image 625x469]

Agricultural products...


www.benandsebastian.com
 
2014-01-01 12:27:47 PM  

abhorrent1: Well if he makes his own flutes, can't he just make more?


I think the Razgul lost their power to create more when the Master Flute Maker bent them to his will.
 
2014-01-01 12:28:14 PM  
The human body is made with meat. It must be destroyed.
 
2014-01-01 12:28:32 PM  

badhatharry: pueblonative: badhatharry: Rules are rules. Just followin' the rules.

Yeah, we should all break the rules whenever we want or because we think it's dumb and know better than the people who put together the laws in the first place.  I mean it's not as if these laws aren't put together after gathering the input of interested parties and through a formalized system anyway.


/anarchy ain't freedom
//anarchy is slavery
///slashies is free

Yes, stupid rules need to be ignored. Who decides which rules are stupid? We, the people. Specifically, the people on my jury.


Hate to break it to you, but usually there's this process when seating a jury called voir dire that weeds out people who are incompetent or who like to use things like jury nullification.  So no, you don't get a jury of good ol' boys who think they can decide what the law is or isn't.
 
2014-01-01 12:28:52 PM  

pueblonative: redmid17: TNel: redmid17: Finished, manufactured, or naturally weathered products including carvings, driftwood, furniture, picture frames, and musical instruments, and plywood are allowed into the U.S., but you need to declare them so the items can be inspected by CBP.

So it looks like they destroyed his flutes for no reason and probably violated their own rules in doing so.


'I told them I had these instruments for many years and flew with them in and out,' he said. 'There were 11 instruments in all. They told me they were agricultural products and they had to be destroyed. There was nothing I could do. The ney flute can be made with bamboo. Is that agricultural?'
Bouzemaa was both upset and unwilling to risk a confrontation with the US authorities.  We did not press him for further particulars. He does not know what to do next. But he does appear to be the victim of state injustice. What do the lawyers among our readers think he should do?

http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2013/12/jfk-customs-destroyed -1 1-of-my-instruments.html

I bolded the important part for you, it seems like the guy never declared the items.  He then never argued so they probably assumed he didn't care much about them so they took them.

Look people I know we don't want to have to declare shiat and have people digging into our suitcases but if you don't this can happen.  I've never declared my alcohol and shiat when I come back but if they catch me they will take it and I wont sit here and biatch about people doing their job when I wasn't willing to fill out the stupid form that would allow me to just walk in with the stuff.

I got that. He should have declared them, though I admit I probably wouldn't have thought twice about wooden instruments needing to be declared, but it's still grossly overreactive. They know he's traveled with them for years and how he makes his living. If they destroyed them because he didn't declare them instead of them proving a tangible threat or Lacey Act ...


Nice to see you sucking CBP dick because apparently you think they can't do wrong? CBP has about a million valid reasons to destroy the guy's flutes. The least they could do is explain to him why they were being destroyed.
 
2014-01-01 12:29:54 PM  

redmid17: pueblonative: redmid17: TNel: redmid17: Finished, manufactured, or naturally weathered products including carvings, driftwood, furniture, picture frames, and musical instruments, and plywood are allowed into the U.S., but you need to declare them so the items can be inspected by CBP.

So it looks like they destroyed his flutes for no reason and probably violated their own rules in doing so.


'I told them I had these instruments for many years and flew with them in and out,' he said. 'There were 11 instruments in all. They told me they were agricultural products and they had to be destroyed. There was nothing I could do. The ney flute can be made with bamboo. Is that agricultural?'
Bouzemaa was both upset and unwilling to risk a confrontation with the US authorities.  We did not press him for further particulars. He does not know what to do next. But he does appear to be the victim of state injustice. What do the lawyers among our readers think he should do?

http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2013/12/jfk-customs-destroyed -1 1-of-my-instruments.html

I bolded the important part for you, it seems like the guy never declared the items.  He then never argued so they probably assumed he didn't care much about them so they took them.

Look people I know we don't want to have to declare shiat and have people digging into our suitcases but if you don't this can happen.  I've never declared my alcohol and shiat when I come back but if they catch me they will take it and I wont sit here and biatch about people doing their job when I wasn't willing to fill out the stupid form that would allow me to just walk in with the stuff.

I got that. He should have declared them, though I admit I probably wouldn't have thought twice about wooden instruments needing to be declared, but it's still grossly overreactive. They know he's traveled with them for years and how he makes his living. If they destroyed them because he didn't declare them instead of them proving a tangible threa ...


And I'm sure he gave an accurate and honest answer and didn';t twist it around to make customs look bad.  All the same, until we hear from customs we only have half the story.
 
2014-01-01 12:30:02 PM  

pueblonative: r1niceboy: RussianPooper: pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.

Only 4 posts to get to the asshole apologist.

If there's one thing about natives of pueblos, they certainly know how to be submissive to the point of Ned Beatty.

Here's a experiment: go to another country bringing prohibited items and try out the "I didn't know the laws" excuse while asserting your rights and screaming about the fairness of the situation.  Then come back and tell us how many turkish prison cell rapes you experienced.


Like the US marine who was running around Mexico  with a shotgun he smuggled in and he claimed he had no idea it was illegal to bring a weapon into another country and everyone was all up in arms. He claimed US custom officials told him it was ok.  Geez, like US officials know the laws of other countries.

I bet this guy guy all assy with the TSA.

This reminds me of the time my brother in law in Colombia called me and said "we got two gringos in jail, come on over"  So I went to the jail and it was two Canadian college professors who had been in a whorehouse drunk and causing trouble.

Seems like the cops came and calmed the situation down and one of the Canucks thought it would be funny to jump on the cops motorcycle and take a spin around the block.

So they were arrested and thrown in the clink. In Colombia you are gringo if you ain't Colombian.

So I get there and these two guys are screaming for me to call the Canadian Embassy, because they are not American are not being treated properly.

I explain to them that they stole a motorcyle, slapped a stripper, and ran out on a tab, that it is not exactly diplomatic immunity.  The answer"It is cool dude, we are not from the US we are Canadian"

I explained that they were going to do 30 days, lose their jobs, etc, but if they could come up with 200 bucks to bribe the cops, they would be let go.  They were incensed yelling about corruption and how dare I suggest that.  But running out on a tab, slapping a whore, and stealing a cops bike was ok.

In the end I won out, but when they went back to work the next week the picture they painted was much like that of this flute tootler.
 
2014-01-01 12:30:33 PM  
Since we're only hearing the guy's side of the story, I refuse to jump up and down in outrage.

Most times I've heard of something being refused entry or declared ineligible to bring on a plane, the traveler has the option to ship it home if it means enough to them.

I really doubt they snatched the flutes out of his hand and said "they're ours now and we're going to immolate them right before your eyes as tribute to our dearest holy one, the great and benevolent Barack Hussein Obama, all peace be upon him!!!"

I'll eat my hat if he didn't have some other options that he's conveniently omitting because they'll knock all the outrage right out of his "Big Brother run amok" story.

9 times out 10 these stories go from "OUTRAGE!!!" to "Oh, well that's actually pretty reasonable." within a day or so when all the details come out. Unfortunately, 9 out of 10 people who get "OUTRAGED!!!" by these stories have an ideological axe to grind and refuse to acknowledege the new information or have short attention spans and have already moved to the next "outrage du jour."
 
2014-01-01 12:30:54 PM  

stuffy: The human body is made with meat. It must be destroyed.


Hate to break it to you, but I've been beating my meat for years and it still keeps on ticking.
 
2014-01-01 12:31:13 PM  

Fano: abhorrent1: Well if he makes his own flutes, can't he just make more?

I think the Razgul lost their power to create more when the Master Flute Maker bent them to his will.


If someone bent my flute there'd be a kink in the line after that for sure, it'd take quite an asshole to pull that off I tell you.
 
2014-01-01 12:31:17 PM  

g4lt: redmid17: g4lt: redmid17: g4lt: redmid17: Meanwhile nothing in the US CBP guidelines mentions wood at all:

http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/clearing/agri_prod_inus.xml

I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?

You didn't look very hard....  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacey_Act_of_1900

Now explain how the Lacey Act of 1900, which isn't new or unknown to me, would affect this particular "import of wood" given that none of it is alive and is actually permitted under CBP guidelines?

I'll wait.

Oh, I don't know, how about the entirety of section 8204, the section that gets its own special webpage at CBP?  Just because you weren't aware of things doesn't mean they don't exist.

So how exactly was this wood illegally harvested and did the CBP even assert, let alone prove, this before they destroyed? Typically even the US government likes to give some reason before dishing out punitive measures.

Ahh, so you're a psychic, knowing precisely what wood was used now?  The farkingflautist won't even say what they were made of...


I don't have to be a psychic. I'm expecting the government to follow some sort of method, a due process maybe, to determine whether or not these instruments violated some import law, which by CBP guidelines are to allow these kind of instruments into the country.
 
2014-01-01 12:31:39 PM  

redmid17: I don't have to read up on invasive species. I'm well aware of how pervasive they can be (asian carp, zebra mussels, pythons in south florida, et al). My point is, they'd have at least told him if they saw evidence of any of that (or should have told him).

So CBP destroyed his flutes. Possible explanations have been 1) Lacey Act violation or 2) Invasive species, but we haven't seen any proof CBP suspected or proved either. Basically we have a guy whose livelihood has been ruined because CBP had a reason but was too sickish to explain why or just sickish.

Does this strike anyone as acceptable?

 

Given this story is as one-sided as any story could possibly be, I don't see enough information to make any kind of informed opinion of the situation.  All you have is the complaint of the person.  There's no information about what actually transpired at JFK beyond what he says.  I know people who work for Customs, and they're not the kind of people who just fark with people just for giggles.  I've also lived in a part of the country that spent billions of dollars trying save pine trees that got infected by an invasive species.

For me, this is all sound and fury signifying nothing as there's not enough factual information to know what really happened.  I can't say it's acceptable or unacceptable at this point.  I do know that it's best to declare things to avoid losing them when you enter the US.
 
2014-01-01 12:31:42 PM  

redmid17: redmid17: Meanwhile nothing in the US CBP guidelines mentions wood at all:

http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/clearing/agri_prod_inus.xml

I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?

Well found some stuff:

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1166

Finished, manufactured, or naturally weathered products including carvings, driftwood, furniture, picture frames, and musical instruments, and plywood are allowed into the U.S., but you need to declare them so the items can be inspected by CBP.

So it looks like they destroyed his flutes for no reason and probably violated their own rules in doing so.


From your own link: "Please note that all items made from wood, feathers, or bone may also be subject to endangered species regulations. See our Q&A entitled: Endangered species, CITES, endangered wildlife, plants, exotic skins, animals https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/64/session/L2F2LzEvdGltZS 8xMzg4NTk3MTA4L3NpZC9OaTR1Z2lKbA==">Answer ID 64."

Since the article has no information on what wood species the flutes were made from, there's a possibility that this was the problem.
 
2014-01-01 12:32:04 PM  

ChewbaccaJones: I read "flautist" and instantly pictured a guy that eats flautas for a living.
Now I'm craving flautas.
Thanks a farking heap, subby.


I read it as flatus and immediately thought of Les Claypool.

/now I'm listening to Frizzle Fry.
 
2014-01-01 12:32:53 PM  
userserve-ak.last.fm
Does not approve
 
2014-01-01 12:32:56 PM  

redmid17: So CBP destroyed his flutes. Possible explanations have been 1) Lacey Act violation or 2) Invasive species, but we haven't seen any proof CBP suspected or proved either. Basically we have a guy whose livelihood has been ruined because CBP had a reason but was too sickish to explain why or just sickish.

Does this strike anyone as acceptable?


we only have half of the story. i'd reserve judgement until the other side has their say, then make the call. as it is, it seems like some parts of the story are likely missing
 
2014-01-01 12:35:00 PM  

redmid17: g4lt: redmid17: g4lt: redmid17: g4lt: redmid17: Meanwhile nothing in the US CBP guidelines mentions wood at all:

http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/clearing/agri_prod_inus.xml

I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?

You didn't look very hard....  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacey_Act_of_1900

Now explain how the Lacey Act of 1900, which isn't new or unknown to me, would affect this particular "import of wood" given that none of it is alive and is actually permitted under CBP guidelines?

I'll wait.

Oh, I don't know, how about the entirety of section 8204, the section that gets its own special webpage at CBP?  Just because you weren't aware of things doesn't mean they don't exist.

So how exactly was this wood illegally harvested and did the CBP even assert, let alone prove, this before they destroyed? Typically even the US government likes to give some reason before dishing out punitive measures.

Ahh, so you're a psychic, knowing precisely what wood was used now?  The farkingflautist won't even say what they were made of...

I don't have to be a psychic. I'm expecting the government to follow some sort of method, a due process maybe, to determine whether or not these instruments violated some import law, which by CBP guidelines are to allow these kind of instruments into the country.


...unless they're made of a wood that is banned, either for Lacey act reasons or quarantine restrictions, which is impossible to ascertain because the government can't say anything and the farkingflautist won't.  Go right ahead and have your kangaroo trial of the eeeevul Customs agents though, because, you know, straw men are menat to be burned.
 
2014-01-01 12:35:32 PM  

TNel: Look people I know we don't want to have to declare shiat and have people digging into our suitcases but if you don't this can happen. I've never declared my alcohol and shiat when I come back but if they catch me they will take it and I wont sit here and biatch about people doing their job when I wasn't willing to fill out the stupid form that would allow me to just walk in with the stuff.


Why would you not declare that the alcohol?  Hell, filling out those forms gives me something to do for 5 minutes on the flight home from Europe.
 
2014-01-01 12:36:12 PM  
http://www.boston.com/names/2013/12/31/customs-officials-destroys-flu t e-virtuoso-instruments/fBlZdUpxw3EKWOzdyyvwXM/story.html

The flute virtuoso who performs regularly with The Boston Camerata lost 13 handmade flutes over the holidays when a US Customs official at New York's JFK Airport mistook the instruments for pieces of bamboo and destroyed them. Razgui, a Canadian citizen who lives some of the time in Brockton, had flown last week from Morocco to Boston, with stops in Madrid and New York. In New York, he says, an official opened his luggage and found the 13 flutelike instruments - 11 nays and two kawalas. Razgui says he had made all of the instruments using hard-to-find reeds. "They said this is an agriculture item," said Razgui, who was not present when his bag was opened. "I fly with them in and out all the time and this is the first time there has been a problem. This is my life." When his baggage arrived in Boston, the instruments were gone. He was instead given a number to call. "They told me they were destroyed," he says. "Nobody talked to me. They said I have to write a letter to the Department of Agriculture in Washington, D.C. This is horrible. I don't know what to do. I've never written letters to people." -

Sweet. Love to see pre emptive enforcement of a regulation THAT DOESN'T APPLY. Even if it was bamboo, guess what CBP says about that:

Bamboo that is thoroughly dried and split or cut lengthwise (rendering it incapable of propagation) will be inspected upon entry and released.

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1359/~/importing-bamboo -i nto-the-us

Now I am not Nick Offerman or Bob Vila, but I imagine a carved instrument that has existed for several years would likely be thoroughly dried and cut/split, even if it weren't made out of bamboo.
 
2014-01-01 12:38:33 PM  

Snapper Carr: ChewbaccaJones: I read "flautist" and instantly pictured a guy that eats flautas for a living.Now I'm craving flautas.Thanks a farking heap, subby.

I read it as flatus and immediately thought of Les Claypool.


I read it as a flatulist from Canada and Terrance and Phillip came to my mind.
 
2014-01-01 12:38:59 PM  
For thos of you saying "he didn't even argue," here is a little more information.

Customs took them out of his bag without him being present and left a note saying his property had been confiscated, call this number. When he called the number, they told him his property had already been destroyed.

So yeah, he didn't have a chance to argue with customs over it.
 
2014-01-01 12:39:02 PM  

redmid17: http://www.boston.com/names/2013/12/31/customs-officials-destroys-flu t e-virtuoso-instruments/fBlZdUpxw3EKWOzdyyvwXM/story.html

The flute virtuoso who performs regularly with The Boston Camerata lost 13 handmade flutes over the holidays when a US Customs official at New York's JFK Airport mistook the instruments for pieces of bamboo and destroyed them. Razgui, a Canadian citizen who lives some of the time in Brockton, had flown last week from Morocco to Boston, with stops in Madrid and New York. In New York, he says, an official opened his luggage and found the 13 flutelike instruments - 11 nays and two kawalas. Razgui says he had made all of the instruments using hard-to-find reeds. "They said this is an agriculture item," said Razgui, who was not present when his bag was opened. "I fly with them in and out all the time and this is the first time there has been a problem. This is my life." When his baggage arrived in Boston, the instruments were gone. He was instead given a number to call. "They told me they were destroyed," he says. "Nobody talked to me. They said I have to write a letter to the Department of Agriculture in Washington, D.C. This is horrible. I don't know what to do. I've never written letters to people." -

Sweet. Love to see pre emptive enforcement of a regulation THAT DOESN'T APPLY. Even if it was bamboo, guess what CBP says about that:

Bamboo that is thoroughly dried and split or cut lengthwise (rendering it incapable of propagation) will be inspected upon entry and released.

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1359/~/importing-bamboo -i nto-the-us

Now I am not Nick Offerman or Bob Vila, but I imagine a carved instrument that has existed for several years would likely be thoroughly dried and cut/split, even if it weren't made out of bamboo.


CBP searches bags in the presence of the passenger.  I've been there, done that, and witnessed it for myself.  If he wasn't there, then that opens up a whole new set of issues.

This is still one-sided though, so nothing changes for me.  Can't ring the rage alarm when I don't have the full story.
 
2014-01-01 12:40:17 PM  
I am disappoint. 124 posts and no I an Anderson until I post his pic?


Joe Peanut: AgentKGB: [images01.olx.com image 625x469]

Agricultural products...

[www.benandsebastian.com image 251x396]


That thing must have been hideous to wear. I have a pic of an early prosthetic leg that was all brass and leather. Those must have been agonizing to walk around in all day.
 
2014-01-01 12:40:46 PM  

pueblonative: badhatharry: pueblonative: badhatharry: Rules are rules. Just followin' the rules.

Yeah, we should all break the rules whenever we want or because we think it's dumb and know better than the people who put together the laws in the first place.  I mean it's not as if these laws aren't put together after gathering the input of interested parties and through a formalized system anyway.


/anarchy ain't freedom
//anarchy is slavery
///slashies is free

Yes, stupid rules need to be ignored. Who decides which rules are stupid? We, the people. Specifically, the people on my jury.

Hate to break it to you, but usually there's this process when seating a jury called voir dire that weeds out people who are incompetent or who like to use things like jury nullification.  So no, you don't get a jury of good ol' boys who think they can decide what the law is or isn't.


Criminal trials do weed out free thinking individuals. I am sure this guy will sue for a lot of money. We will see what the civil jury has to say about these rules.
 
2014-01-01 12:41:39 PM  

pyrotek85: pueblonative: So his ignorance of what is in the laws should be an excuse.  Wonder if that's ever been ruled on by the courts?

I agree with that in principle, but how far can you take it when we have tens of thousands of laws? Yeah, laws that are  malum in se in nature you don't have an excuse for not knowing, but most of this crap is  malum prohibitum. There's no way to know about every obscure law, or when TSA is suddenly to going to interpret the law differently on the spot.


Know how I know you are a 1L?
 
2014-01-01 12:42:07 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: TNel: Look people I know we don't want to have to declare shiat and have people digging into our suitcases but if you don't this can happen. I've never declared my alcohol and shiat when I come back but if they catch me they will take it and I wont sit here and biatch about people doing their job when I wasn't willing to fill out the stupid form that would allow me to just walk in with the stuff.

Why would you not declare that the alcohol?  Hell, filling out those forms gives me something to do for 5 minutes on the flight home from Europe.


Last time I declared something -- a 2/3 full bottle of tequila from Mexico -- it earned me a 45 minute session with CBP while they rifled through my bags.

"Why do you have a makeup kit?"
"My girlfriend and I shared a suitcase."
"Where is she?"
" Outside of the customs area because you told her she couldn't wait inside of it for me."

" Why do you have all of this beach stuff. It's 30 degrees outside with 6" of snow on the ground."
"I was coming back from Mexico."

When I don't declare things in my suitcase, I walk through customs in about 5 seconds. I'm more than happy to pay taxes on what I need to but the needless, stupid questioning and piece by piece breakdown of my luggage isn't helping anyone.
 
2014-01-01 12:42:18 PM  
"destroyed" eh?  Give it a few days and start watching ebay and the craigslist local to the airport's area, you're going to find them and you're going to find one of those mouth breathers who works at the airport is selling them.
 
2014-01-01 12:42:26 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: TNel: Look people I know we don't want to have to declare shiat and have people digging into our suitcases but if you don't this can happen. I've never declared my alcohol and shiat when I come back but if they catch me they will take it and I wont sit here and biatch about people doing their job when I wasn't willing to fill out the stupid form that would allow me to just walk in with the stuff.

Why would you not declare that the alcohol?  Hell, filling out those forms gives me something to do for 5 minutes on the flight home from Europe.


How can you not declare booze unless you have it wrapped in plastic buried in your suitcase wrapped in your dirty undies.

I round trip Colombia all the time and I declare booze, coffee, sweets, all on the little paper, and my shiat never gets searched and TSA and customs are nice as hell to me.

People who like to break the rules who then get farked with are the first ones to scream discrimination.
 
2014-01-01 12:42:35 PM  

redmid17: I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?


They're twunts?
 
2014-01-01 12:42:42 PM  

redmid17: http://www.boston.com/names/2013/12/31/customs-officials-destroys-flu t e-virtuoso-instruments/fBlZdUpxw3EKWOzdyyvwXM/story.html

The flute virtuoso who performs regularly with The Boston Camerata lost 13 handmade flutes over the holidays when a US Customs official at New York's JFK Airport mistook the instruments for pieces of bamboo and destroyed them. Razgui, a Canadian citizen who lives some of the time in Brockton, had flown last week from Morocco to Boston, with stops in Madrid and New York. In New York, he says, an official opened his luggage and found the 13 flutelike instruments - 11 nays and two kawalas. Razgui says he had made all of the instruments using hard-to-find reeds. "They said this is an agriculture item," said Razgui, who was not present when his bag was opened. "I fly with them in and out all the time and this is the first time there has been a problem. This is my life." When his baggage arrived in Boston, the instruments were gone. He was instead given a number to call. "They told me they were destroyed," he says. "Nobody talked to me. They said I have to write a letter to the Department of Agriculture in Washington, D.C. This is horrible. I don't know what to do. I've never written letters to people." -

Sweet. Love to see pre emptive enforcement of a regulation THAT DOESN'T APPLY. Even if it was bamboo, guess what CBP says about that:

Bamboo that is thoroughly dried and split or cut lengthwise (rendering it incapable of propagation) will be inspected upon entry and released.

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1359/~/importing-bamboo -i nto-the-us

Now I am not Nick Offerman or Bob Vila, but I imagine a carved instrument that has existed for several years would likely be thoroughly dried and cut/split, even if it weren't made out of bamboo.



now I'm not flutegenieer, so I may be wrong,  but I suspect that  if you split it or cut it lengthwise, it's going to let all the flutey goodness out.
 
2014-01-01 12:43:03 PM  

Brosephus: redmid17: http://www.boston.com/names/2013/12/31/customs-officials-destroys-flu t e-virtuoso-instruments/fBlZdUpxw3EKWOzdyyvwXM/story.html

The flute virtuoso who performs regularly with The Boston Camerata lost 13 handmade flutes over the holidays when a US Customs official at New York's JFK Airport mistook the instruments for pieces of bamboo and destroyed them. Razgui, a Canadian citizen who lives some of the time in Brockton, had flown last week from Morocco to Boston, with stops in Madrid and New York. In New York, he says, an official opened his luggage and found the 13 flutelike instruments - 11 nays and two kawalas. Razgui says he had made all of the instruments using hard-to-find reeds. "They said this is an agriculture item," said Razgui, who was not present when his bag was opened. "I fly with them in and out all the time and this is the first time there has been a problem. This is my life." When his baggage arrived in Boston, the instruments were gone. He was instead given a number to call. "They told me they were destroyed," he says. "Nobody talked to me. They said I have to write a letter to the Department of Agriculture in Washington, D.C. This is horrible. I don't know what to do. I've never written letters to people." -

Sweet. Love to see pre emptive enforcement of a regulation THAT DOESN'T APPLY. Even if it was bamboo, guess what CBP says about that:

Bamboo that is thoroughly dried and split or cut lengthwise (rendering it incapable of propagation) will be inspected upon entry and released.

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1359/~/importing-bamboo -i nto-the-us

Now I am not Nick Offerman or Bob Vila, but I imagine a carved instrument that has existed for several years would likely be thoroughly dried and cut/split, even if it weren't made out of bamboo.

CBP searches bags in the presence of the passenger.  I've been there, done that, and witnessed it for myself.  If he wasn't there, then that opens up a whole new set of issues.

This ...


Fair enough, the rage alarm is fun to ring though.
 
2014-01-01 12:43:14 PM  
To add to my last post, why is the guy being coy about what the flutes were made of?

If it were me, and I were launching an internet outrage party, I'd lay my farking case out like Matlock, listing each and every flute and the type of wood or bamboo that they were made from and the pertinent import laws showing that they should NOT have been subject to any sort of ban.

And yet, he's just:

"The ney flute can be made with bamboo. Is that agricultural?"

Which sounds like some high schooler's attempt to be clever. "Yeah, you saw me drinking out of a Jim Beam bottle. But, how do you KNOW it was Jim Beam? It might have been an empty Jim Beam bottle that I poured sweet tea into!"
 
2014-01-01 12:44:42 PM  

g4lt: ...unless they're made of a wood that is banned, either for Lacey act reasons or quarantine restrictions, which is impossible to ascertain because the government can't say anything and the farkingflautist won't.  Go right ahead and have your kangaroo trial of the eeeevul Customs agents though, because, you know, straw men are menat to be burned.


In redmid's defense, he's not holding a kangaroo court - he's doing a hell of a job researching import laws and trying to determine the legal logic behind customs doing this to this guy. He's also the only one that's putting in any work to find out actual facts, so props to him for that.

As you say, however, without knowing what type of wood the flutes were made of, we're just speculating. This seems to be a critical detail the flautist is unwilling to discuss - considering his flutes were handmade, there's probably a good probability that they were made out of a rare or exotic species.
 
2014-01-01 12:45:29 PM  

Sticky Hands: redmid17: http://www.boston.com/names/2013/12/31/customs-officials-destroys-flu t e-virtuoso-instruments/fBlZdUpxw3EKWOzdyyvwXM/story.html

The flute virtuoso who performs regularly with The Boston Camerata lost 13 handmade flutes over the holidays when a US Customs official at New York's JFK Airport mistook the instruments for pieces of bamboo and destroyed them. Razgui, a Canadian citizen who lives some of the time in Brockton, had flown last week from Morocco to Boston, with stops in Madrid and New York. In New York, he says, an official opened his luggage and found the 13 flutelike instruments - 11 nays and two kawalas. Razgui says he had made all of the instruments using hard-to-find reeds. "They said this is an agriculture item," said Razgui, who was not present when his bag was opened. "I fly with them in and out all the time and this is the first time there has been a problem. This is my life." When his baggage arrived in Boston, the instruments were gone. He was instead given a number to call. "They told me they were destroyed," he says. "Nobody talked to me. They said I have to write a letter to the Department of Agriculture in Washington, D.C. This is horrible. I don't know what to do. I've never written letters to people." -

Sweet. Love to see pre emptive enforcement of a regulation THAT DOESN'T APPLY. Even if it was bamboo, guess what CBP says about that:

Bamboo that is thoroughly dried and split or cut lengthwise (rendering it incapable of propagation) will be inspected upon entry and released.

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1359/~/importing-bamboo -i nto-the-us

Now I am not Nick Offerman or Bob Vila, but I imagine a carved instrument that has existed for several years would likely be thoroughly dried and cut/split, even if it weren't made out of bamboo.


now I'm not flutegenieer, so I may be wrong,  but I suspect that  if you split it or cut it lengthwise, it's going to let all the flutey goodness out.


Bamboo grows up to 3" a day. You're going to have to trim or split it to get the rough size you want to carve. Otherwise you are going to be making a gigantic flute.
 
2014-01-01 12:45:43 PM  

pueblonative: r1niceboy: RussianPooper: pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.

Only 4 posts to get to the asshole apologist.

If there's one thing about natives of pueblos, they certainly know how to be submissive to the point of Ned Beatty.

Here's a experiment: go to another country bringing prohibited items and try out the "I didn't know the laws" excuse while asserting your rights and screaming about the fairness of the situation.  Then come back and tell us how many turkish prison cell rapes you experienced.


How 'bout you check your own laws. Unless it is determined that the item is made of an endangered species, finished manufactured items are fine to bring into the states. This includes musical instruments. The only requirement is that they be declared.
 
2014-01-01 12:45:55 PM  
Leather shoes and belt?  Sorry, agricultural products.  fark you.  Move on.
 
2014-01-01 12:47:04 PM  

badhatharry: pueblonative: badhatharry: pueblonative: badhatharry: Rules are rules. Just followin' the rules.

Yeah, we should all break the rules whenever we want or because we think it's dumb and know better than the people who put together the laws in the first place.  I mean it's not as if these laws aren't put together after gathering the input of interested parties and through a formalized system anyway.


/anarchy ain't freedom
//anarchy is slavery
///slashies is free

Yes, stupid rules need to be ignored. Who decides which rules are stupid? We, the people. Specifically, the people on my jury.

Hate to break it to you, but usually there's this process when seating a jury called voir dire that weeds out people who are incompetent or who like to use things like jury nullification.  So no, you don't get a jury of good ol' boys who think they can decide what the law is or isn't.

Criminal trials do weed out free thinking individuals. I am sure this guy will sue for a lot of money. We will see what the civil jury has to say about these rules.


Same exact thing that they will say in a criminal trial.  Assuming, of course, the government doesn't get it bounced because of sovereign immunity.


Elegy: For thos of you saying "he didn't even argue," here is a little more information.

Customs took them out of his bag without him being present and left a note saying his property had been confiscated, call this number. When he called the number, they told him his property had already been destroyed.

So yeah, he didn't have a chance to argue with customs over it.


So in one article, he's saying that he got a note.  In another he says that the customs official took it out in front of him.  Hmm, seems we have an unreliable narrator here.
 
2014-01-01 12:48:16 PM  

sleeps in trees: K3rmy: oldernell: That's why they're called WOODwinds.I wonder what they would do about bagpipes.

You realize a saxophone is a woodwind instrument, right?

next thing you will saying that all black people look the same

What's your point. So is a clarinet, silver flute, oboe etc. They are called woodwinds because originally they were made of wood. The exception is the sax but it is included because it has a reed.


It's almost like it uses a wooden reed and wind to make sound
 
2014-01-01 12:49:13 PM  
JFK... that explains so much.

CSB: The day after the Northeast blackout of 2003, we were flying out of JFK. We were luckier than most, in that our flight hadn't been delayed... but there were thousands of other disgruntled travelers who had been. The lines and the crowds were just short of insane.

In the midst of all of this, we were carrying our rather dazed and confused little hamsters in clear plastic traveling carriers. When we passed through the security checkpoint, the TSA agent asked us to open the carriers (which seemed a little silly, since you could see straight through them, but whatever). He then reached in and took the time to frisk one of them. Not pet... frisk. A hamster.
 
2014-01-01 12:49:25 PM  

redmid17: I don't have to be a psychic. I'm expecting the government to follow some sort of method, a due process maybe, to determine whether or not these instruments violated some import law, which by CBP guidelines are to allow these kind of instruments into the country.



And yet, you have no way of knowing that they didn't. You have a one-sided story that's long on outrage and short on facts and details... which you are conveniently filling in with your imagination according to your own bias.
 
2014-01-01 12:51:02 PM  
So is it safe to bring a Strad into the U.S.?  They're made of wood, after all.  "Sorry, your multi-million dollar violin was an 'agricultural product', so we destroyed it."
 
2014-01-01 12:51:36 PM  

technicolor-misfit: redmid17: I don't have to be a psychic. I'm expecting the government to follow some sort of method, a due process maybe, to determine whether or not these instruments violated some import law, which by CBP guidelines are to allow these kind of instruments into the country.

And yet, you have no way of knowing that they didn't. You have a one-sided story that's long on outrage and short on facts and details... which you are conveniently filling in with your imagination according to your own bias.


The government has been given a chance to comment. They haven't. I'm haranguing them for not providing a reason. That's entirely their doing. If they had a legitimate reason, they were in the right.
 
2014-01-01 12:52:46 PM  

edmo: So much for traveling with my guitar.

Seriously, I'm with the "These guys are assholes" crowd here and you "it's the law" types should just go back to your bedrooms and let the NSA continue filming you or whatever.


If you're traveling with a guitar and not going to play a show you're a douchebag.
 
2014-01-01 12:52:56 PM  
If the standard is:  agricultural product  at a border crossing
Then what about the following:
    cotton clothing or cotton blend - hand over those clothes
    alcohol - hand over that booze
    wood sided station wagons (woodies) - from a long time ago - park your car over there
    wood insert dash boards on high end cars - park your car over there
    furniture and cabinets - hand over that guitar amp
    paper money - turn in that money
    leather wallets, shaving kits, belts and shoes - hand them over
    real hair toupees - hand over that rug
    books, note paper, letters - hand those over
    snacks, food, many animals - hand them over

Let's go completely zero tolerance and cripple the borders.
 
2014-01-01 12:52:59 PM  

NothingCanPossiblyeGoWrong: sleeps in trees: K3rmy: oldernell: That's why they're called WOODwinds.I wonder what they would do about bagpipes.

You realize a saxophone is a woodwind instrument, right?

next thing you will saying that all black people look the same

What's your point. So is a clarinet, silver flute, oboe etc. They are called woodwinds because originally they were made of wood. The exception is the sax but it is included because it has a reed.

It's almost like it uses a wooden reed and wind to make sound


See above comment.
 
2014-01-01 12:53:42 PM  

Xanadone: So is it safe to bring a Strad into the U.S.?  They're made of wood, after all.  "Sorry, your multi-million dollar violin was an 'agricultural product', so we destroyed it."


Probably.

1) Those came from Europe, so the illegal wood angle wouldn't apply
2) Violins are sealed, so I don't think beetles would go for them anyway
3) Those are expensive but common enough that even the US government would get a lot of instant backlash if they destroyed one
 
2014-01-01 12:53:51 PM  
Oh, and he also says there was "raw" material to make other flutes in the case. (I put raw in quotation to denote the fact that we don't know what state the material was in, only that it was not yet carved into an instrument.

"Boujemaa adds some specifics of the case:
What was in the case? they called Bamboo case
1)     11 nays (flutes) made by me some of them in Canada some in US
2)      material to make new nays in the case
3)      flight  AA 0095    Madrid to JFK
4)      time : 12/22/2013   (notice : on 12/23/2013)
5)      Reason :   nays from plants which is agricultural items (so l can't play nay)"


http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2014/01/my-smashed-instrument s- brought-peace-and-joy.html
 
2014-01-01 12:54:46 PM  

redmid17: Meanwhile nothing in the US CBP guidelines mentions wood at all:

http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/clearing/agri_prod_inus.xml

I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?


First off because they could.
Secondly,because this one time at Band Camp...
 
2014-01-01 12:54:57 PM  
By that logic, jeans which are made of cotton would be an agricultural product too.

Sooo...sorry folks, no pants at the airport.
 
2014-01-01 12:55:07 PM  

pueblonative: So in one article, he's saying that he got a note.  In another he says that the customs official took it out in front of him.  Hmm, seems we have an unreliable narrator here.


Or an unreliable source. Your first link says they were unable to reach the guy to talk to him about it when they wrote the story.

In the update contained at the end of your link, where they do talk to him, they give a cursory overview of the situation and it say: "We did not press him for further particulars.

Why the fark not? Isn't that what journalists do for a living?
 
2014-01-01 12:55:09 PM  

Por que tan serioso: pyrotek85: pueblonative: So his ignorance of what is in the laws should be an excuse.  Wonder if that's ever been ruled on by the courts?

I agree with that in principle, but how far can you take it when we have tens of thousands of laws? Yeah, laws that are  malum in se in nature you don't have an excuse for not knowing, but most of this crap is  malum prohibitum. There's no way to know about every obscure law, or when TSA is suddenly to going to interpret the law differently on the spot.

Know how I know you are a 1L?


A what?
 
2014-01-01 12:56:35 PM  

theflatline: How can you not declare booze unless you have it wrapped in plastic buried in your suitcase wrapped in your dirty undies.

I round trip Colombia all the time and I declare booze, coffee, sweets, all on the little paper, and my shiat never gets searched and TSA and customs are nice as hell to me.

People who like to break the rules who then get farked with are the first ones to scream discrimination.


They don't search bags unless they have to and a bottle of alcohol doesn't weigh enough to trip any warning signs so it doesn't have to be hid.  If they find it they can have it I just don't want to be pulled out as a "random" search and have them go through all my shiat all because I listed a bottle of booze.  I never been searched or had issues with the numerous times I've done it and it's not hurting anyone it's not like I'm bringing cases and selling them per bottle.

My parents brought back a retarded amount the one time and I have no idea how they got through without them batting an eye.  I mean their bags were so damn heavy because of bottles of wine, it was all for personal consumption and all but it was over the "limit".
 
2014-01-01 12:58:45 PM  

technicolor-misfit: Oh, and he also says there was "raw" material to make other flutes in the case. (I put raw in quotation to denote the fact that we don't know what state the material was in, only that it was not yet carved into an instrument.

"Boujemaa adds some specifics of the case:
What was in the case? they called Bamboo case
1)     11 nays (flutes) made by me some of them in Canada some in US
2)      material to make new nays in the case
3)      flight  AA 0095    Madrid to JFK
4)      time : 12/22/2013   (notice : on 12/23/2013)
5)      Reason :   nays from plants which is agricultural items (so l can't play nay)"


http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2014/01/my-smashed-instrument s- brought-peace-and-joy.html


Neither TFA, the linked article within TFA, nor any other source I've read said he had raw materials in the bag with him. Those should have been destroyed. The carved flutes should not have been destroyed. Got a source for that?
 
2014-01-01 12:59:01 PM  
Aren't silk, cotton, flax, and leather also agricultural products?  If so, shouldn't travelers' clothes be confiscated and destroyed at the borders?  Especially if they belong to hot chicks?
 
2014-01-01 12:59:12 PM  

AgentKGB: Agricultural products...


Good god, there are children that readthese articles
 
2014-01-01 12:59:44 PM  

technicolor-misfit: To add to my last post, why is the guy being coy about what the flutes were made of?

If it were me, and I were launching an internet outrage party, I'd lay my farking case out like Matlock, listing each and every flute and the type of wood or bamboo that they were made from and the pertinent import laws showing that they should NOT have been subject to any sort of ban.

And yet, he's just:

"The ney flute can be made with bamboo. Is that agricultural?"

Which sounds like some high schooler's attempt to be clever. "Yeah, you saw me drinking out of a Jim Beam bottle. But, how do you KNOW it was Jim Beam? It might have been an empty Jim Beam bottle that I poured sweet tea into!"


High schooler and lawyer logic are not so far apart. It is the government's job to prove their case. A cop can testify that it looked like a Jim Beam bottle. But the judge or jury is going to want to see the bottle.  If they destroyed the evidence, it is usually best for the defendant to just stfu
 
2014-01-01 01:00:03 PM  

Endive Wombat: By that logic, jeans which are made of cotton would be an agricultural product too.

Sooo...sorry folks, no pants at the airport.


www.cybergorillas.com

Not so fast...
 
2014-01-01 01:00:31 PM  

WTFDYW: Might have something to do with the Emerald Ash Borer. We're not even allowed to haul firewood from one county to another in most areas.


More likely it has to do with the Canadian-US softwood lumber dispute. If they weren't allowed in the country (or out of it) why not just allow them to be shipped elsewhere instead of seizing and destroying them? With an obvious art object there's a level of assholery about.
 
2014-01-01 01:01:03 PM  

redmid17: Bamboo grows up to 3" a day. You're going to have to trim or split it to get the rough size you want to carve. Otherwise you are going to be making a gigantic flute.


wouldn't splitting it mess up the shape, thus making it difficult or impossible to make a flute out of it.  Seems like it wood (heh!) but I really don't know.
 
2014-01-01 01:01:48 PM  
If you want to see outrage, wait until they apply this logic to hunting rifle stocks.
 
2014-01-01 01:02:16 PM  

redmid17: technicolor-misfit: redmid17: I don't have to be a psychic. I'm expecting the government to follow some sort of method, a due process maybe, to determine whether or not these instruments violated some import law, which by CBP guidelines are to allow these kind of instruments into the country.

And yet, you have no way of knowing that they didn't. You have a one-sided story that's long on outrage and short on facts and details... which you are conveniently filling in with your imagination according to your own bias.

The government has been given a chance to comment. They haven't. I'm haranguing them for not providing a reason. That's entirely their doing. If they had a legitimate reason, they were in the right.



Well, given that the story broke on New Years Eve, well after business hours, and it's been a whopping 19 hours since it was published, I can certainly see why it's reasonable to conclude that they're being evasive as a clear sign of guilt, rather than you know... it's a very busy time for them, and they probably have a lot of irons in the fire, and even in the best circumstances, something like this would generally require a fair amount of time for an organization to investigate, gather the relevant details, make an assessment of what transpired, and respond to.
 
2014-01-01 01:02:45 PM  

Fano: Endive Wombat: By that logic, jeans which are made of cotton would be an agricultural product too.

Sooo...sorry folks, no pants at the airport.

[www.cybergorillas.com image 500x447]

Not so fast...


Yup, can't fly by the seat of your pants if you got no pants.
 
2014-01-01 01:02:59 PM  

Lee451: [userserve-ak.last.fm image 500x590]
Does not approve


+1 Came here for this. Disappointed it took so long.

/snot is running down his nose
 
2014-01-01 01:03:48 PM  

machodonkeywrestler: edmo: So much for traveling with my guitar.

Seriously, I'm with the "These guys are assholes" crowd here and you "it's the law" types should just go back to your bedrooms and let the NSA continue filming you or whatever.

If you're traveling with a guitar and not going to play a show you're a douchebag.


Some people play daily for enjoyment or practice. In this day and age an iPad or video game seem more acceptable.
 
2014-01-01 01:04:00 PM  

Sticky Hands: redmid17: Bamboo grows up to 3" a day. You're going to have to trim or split it to get the rough size you want to carve. Otherwise you are going to be making a gigantic flute.

wouldn't splitting it mess up the shape, thus making it difficult or impossible to make a flute out of it.  Seems like it wood (heh!) but I really don't know.


Like I said, I'm not Nick Offerman but you'd need to trim a bamboo plant/shoot at some point unless you found a shoot that was roughly the size you want it to be.
 
2014-01-01 01:07:24 PM  

pyrotek85: Por que tan serioso: pyrotek85: pueblonative: So his ignorance of what is in the laws should be an excuse.  Wonder if that's ever been ruled on by the courts?

I agree with that in principle, but how far can you take it when we have tens of thousands of laws? Yeah, laws that are  malum in se in nature you don't have an excuse for not knowing, but most of this crap is  malum prohibitum. There's no way to know about every obscure law, or when TSA is suddenly to going to interpret the law differently on the spot.

Know how I know you are a 1L?

A what?


He's calling you a first-year law student (hence 1L) for using Latin and making what he perceives to be a bad argument.

In other words. typical dismissive Fark behavior.
 
2014-01-01 01:08:28 PM  

badhatharry: technicolor-misfit: To add to my last post, why is the guy being coy about what the flutes were made of?

If it were me, and I were launching an internet outrage party, I'd lay my farking case out like Matlock, listing each and every flute and the type of wood or bamboo that they were made from and the pertinent import laws showing that they should NOT have been subject to any sort of ban.

And yet, he's just:

"The ney flute can be made with bamboo. Is that agricultural?"

Which sounds like some high schooler's attempt to be clever. "Yeah, you saw me drinking out of a Jim Beam bottle. But, how do you KNOW it was Jim Beam? It might have been an empty Jim Beam bottle that I poured sweet tea into!"

High schooler and lawyer logic are not so far apart. It is the government's job to prove their case. A cop can testify that it looked like a Jim Beam bottle. But the judge or jury is going to want to see the bottle.  If they destroyed the evidence, it is usually best for the defendant to just stfu



Sure... but we're not in a court of law, and for me, his coyness casts a shadow of doubt on the reliability of his claims... which was my point.

If he's got nothing to hide, and is indeed in the right, why does he not lay his case out completely and clearly?

In THIS story, the customs agents are the defendants on trial for wanton and baseless destruction of personal property.
 
2014-01-01 01:12:30 PM  
That is so bizarre. Last year I flew back to the US from Indonesia with a bag packed full of local wood carvings, and the TSA didn't even ask about them.
 
2014-01-01 01:12:44 PM  

technicolor-misfit: badhatharry: technicolor-misfit: To add to my last post, why is the guy being coy about what the flutes were made of?

If it were me, and I were launching an internet outrage party, I'd lay my farking case out like Matlock, listing each and every flute and the type of wood or bamboo that they were made from and the pertinent import laws showing that they should NOT have been subject to any sort of ban.

And yet, he's just:

"The ney flute can be made with bamboo. Is that agricultural?"

Which sounds like some high schooler's attempt to be clever. "Yeah, you saw me drinking out of a Jim Beam bottle. But, how do you KNOW it was Jim Beam? It might have been an empty Jim Beam bottle that I poured sweet tea into!"

High schooler and lawyer logic are not so far apart. It is the government's job to prove their case. A cop can testify that it looked like a Jim Beam bottle. But the judge or jury is going to want to see the bottle.  If they destroyed the evidence, it is usually best for the defendant to just stfu


Sure... but we're not in a court of law, and for me, his coyness casts a shadow of doubt on the reliability of his claims... which was my point.

If he's got nothing to hide, and is indeed in the right, why does he not lay his case out completely and clearly?

In THIS story, the customs agents are the defendants on trial for wanton and baseless destruction of personal property.


They are defendants asserting an affirmative defense. They need to present evidence and they need to achieve the preponderance of evidence being in their favor to "be innocent."
 
2014-01-01 01:13:27 PM  
Typical capricious inconsistent behavior.   If we ran the stock market like we enforce our laws we would be a collapsed economy with little hope.
 
2014-01-01 01:13:51 PM  
www.roundtree7.com
can we build a bridge out of em'?
 
2014-01-01 01:13:58 PM  
Something doesn't quite pass the smell test here. Very few finished wood products are prohibited by the USDA, unless they are very specific species or from very specific countries. And CBP only enforces USDA regs with respect to agricultural products. Just because it was wooden wouldn't trigger destruction.
 
2014-01-01 01:14:13 PM  

redmid17: technicolor-misfit: Oh, and he also says there was "raw" material to make other flutes in the case. (I put raw in quotation to denote the fact that we don't know what state the material was in, only that it was not yet carved into an instrument.

"Boujemaa adds some specifics of the case:
What was in the case? they called Bamboo case
1)     11 nays (flutes) made by me some of them in Canada some in US
2)      material to make new nays in the case
3)      flight  AA 0095    Madrid to JFK
4)      time : 12/22/2013   (notice : on 12/23/2013)
5)      Reason :   nays from plants which is agricultural items (so l can't play nay)"


http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2014/01/my-smashed-instrument s- brought-peace-and-joy.html

Neither TFA, the linked article within TFA, nor any other source I've read said he had raw materials in the bag with him. Those should have been destroyed. The carved flutes should not have been destroyed. Got a source for that?


It's there in the link I posted... right there above your reply.

"The flute virtuoso Boujemaa Razgui, whose instruments were seized and destroyed by US Customs at JFK Airport, has been in touch with us again to thank Slipped Disc for its support. His English is not fluent or precise - it may, perhaps, have perplexed Customs agents - but there is no mistaking Boujemaa's sincerity or his pain when writing about his hand-crafted neys (or nays).

Here's what he writes, sharing with us a unique picture of the precious, lovingly crafted neys:

'
I have  such great memories with these nays through the past years, from culture to any moment that I remember.
Of course l will not hurt any body  with nays. They were my huge art connection with North America and Europe, through churches, synagogues (all of them in Montreal and almost all in Toronto), universities, colleges, theaters, com.centers , mosques, all kind of ceremonies , marriages, helulas , barMetzvahs, you name it.
Crossing the US in my travels, l got to educate myself, meet other people and exchange ideas.
Boujemaa adds some specifics of the case:
What was in the case? they called Bamboo case
1)     11 nays (flutes) made by me some of them in Canada some in US
2)      material to make new nays in the case
3)      flight  AA 0095    Madrid to JFK
4)      time : 12/22/2013   (notice : on 12/23/2013)
5)      Reason :   nays from plants which is agricultural items (so l can't play nay)'"


According to the site HE is the direct source for that information.

And if the instruments were packed with "raw" materials, that likely gives (at the very least) greater concern that if the raw material is contaminated by pests, then the instruments may well be contaminated by those pests too.
 
2014-01-01 01:19:02 PM  
He should have just eaten them before bringing them in...
hilahcooking.com

mmmmm, flautas...
 
2014-01-01 01:19:11 PM  

redmid17: technicolor-misfit: badhatharry: technicolor-misfit: To add to my last post, why is the guy being coy about what the flutes were made of?

If it were me, and I were launching an internet outrage party, I'd lay my farking case out like Matlock, listing each and every flute and the type of wood or bamboo that they were made from and the pertinent import laws showing that they should NOT have been subject to any sort of ban.

And yet, he's just:

"The ney flute can be made with bamboo. Is that agricultural?"

Which sounds like some high schooler's attempt to be clever. "Yeah, you saw me drinking out of a Jim Beam bottle. But, how do you KNOW it was Jim Beam? It might have been an empty Jim Beam bottle that I poured sweet tea into!"

High schooler and lawyer logic are not so far apart. It is the government's job to prove their case. A cop can testify that it looked like a Jim Beam bottle. But the judge or jury is going to want to see the bottle.  If they destroyed the evidence, it is usually best for the defendant to just stfu


Sure... but we're not in a court of law, and for me, his coyness casts a shadow of doubt on the reliability of his claims... which was my point.

If he's got nothing to hide, and is indeed in the right, why does he not lay his case out completely and clearly?

In THIS story, the customs agents are the defendants on trial for wanton and baseless destruction of personal property.

They are defendants asserting an affirmative defense. They need to present evidence and they need to achieve the preponderance of evidence being in their favor to "be innocent."



They haven't asserted ANY defense, nor been given reasonable time to respond. We have still only heard a one-sided accusation that's not long on actual details.

They should not be presumed "guilty until they prove themselves innocent."
 
2014-01-01 01:19:51 PM  

pueblonative: So in one article, he's saying that he got a note. In another he says that the customs official took it out in front of him. Hmm, seems we have an unreliable narrator here.


I don't see the phrase "in front of him" in the article you linked to. All I see is:

Boujemaa Razgui, a flute virtuoso who lives in New York and works with many US ensembles, was returning to base over the holiday when Customs officials at Kennedy Airport asked to see his instruments.
...
At JFK, the officials removed and smashed each and every one of his instruments. No reason was given.


Now, I suppose you could say that his claim of what they did (smashed the flutes) implies he was there to see it. Except that is not a quote from him.
 
2014-01-01 01:19:58 PM  
assets.sbnation.com
 
2014-01-01 01:20:59 PM  

technicolor-misfit: redmid17: technicolor-misfit: Oh, and he also says there was "raw" material to make other flutes in the case. (I put raw in quotation to denote the fact that we don't know what state the material was in, only that it was not yet carved into an instrument.

"Boujemaa adds some specifics of the case:
What was in the case? they called Bamboo case
1)     11 nays (flutes) made by me some of them in Canada some in US
2)      material to make new nays in the case
3)      flight  AA 0095    Madrid to JFK
4)      time : 12/22/2013   (notice : on 12/23/2013)
5)      Reason :   nays from plants which is agricultural items (so l can't play nay)"


http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2014/01/my-smashed-instrument s- brought-peace-and-joy.html

Neither TFA, the linked article within TFA, nor any other source I've read said he had raw materials in the bag with him. Those should have been destroyed. The carved flutes should not have been destroyed. Got a source for that?

It's there in the link I posted... right there above your reply.

"The flute virtuoso Boujemaa Razgui, whose instruments were seized and destroyed by US Customs at JFK Airport, has been in touch with us again to thank Slipped Disc for its support. His English is not fluent or precise - it may, perhaps, have perplexed Customs agents - but there is no mistaking Boujemaa's sincerity or his pain when writing about his hand-crafted neys (or nays).

Here's what he writes, sharing with us a unique picture of the precious, lovingly crafted neys:

'
I have  such great memories with these nays through the past years, from culture to any moment that I remember.
Of course l will not hurt any body  with nays. They were my huge art connection with North America and Europe, through churches, synagogues (all of them in Montreal and almost all in Toronto), universities, colleges, theaters, com.centers , mosques, all kind of ceremonies , marriages, helulas , barMetzvahs, you name it.
Crossing the US in my travels, l got to educa ...


Well they were definitely right to destroy the raw material. The picture in your link shows sealed wood as far as I can tell, so I doubt any pests would go after them. Wouldn't CBP need to destroy the rest of the contents of the suitcase if there was a suspected bug infestation though?
 
2014-01-01 01:22:50 PM  

technicolor-misfit: redmid17: technicolor-misfit: badhatharry: technicolor-misfit: To add to my last post, why is the guy being coy about what the flutes were made of?

If it were me, and I were launching an internet outrage party, I'd lay my farking case out like Matlock, listing each and every flute and the type of wood or bamboo that they were made from and the pertinent import laws showing that they should NOT have been subject to any sort of ban.

And yet, he's just:

"The ney flute can be made with bamboo. Is that agricultural?"

Which sounds like some high schooler's attempt to be clever. "Yeah, you saw me drinking out of a Jim Beam bottle. But, how do you KNOW it was Jim Beam? It might have been an empty Jim Beam bottle that I poured sweet tea into!"

High schooler and lawyer logic are not so far apart. It is the government's job to prove their case. A cop can testify that it looked like a Jim Beam bottle. But the judge or jury is going to want to see the bottle.  If they destroyed the evidence, it is usually best for the defendant to just stfu


Sure... but we're not in a court of law, and for me, his coyness casts a shadow of doubt on the reliability of his claims... which was my point.

If he's got nothing to hide, and is indeed in the right, why does he not lay his case out completely and clearly?

In THIS story, the customs agents are the defendants on trial for wanton and baseless destruction of personal property.

They are defendants asserting an affirmative defense. They need to present evidence and they need to achieve the preponderance of evidence being in their favor to "be innocent."


They haven't asserted ANY defense, nor been given reasonable time to respond. We have still only heard a one-sided accusation that's not long on actual details.

They should not be presumed "guilty until they prove themselves innocent."


They've already admitted to destroying the flutes. Now it's just a matter of determining whether or not it was justified, hence the affirmative defense.
 
2014-01-01 01:23:24 PM  

Paul Baumer: [asset.soup.io image 500x495]obligatory


Obligatory?

Never saw it, but that is awesome.
 
2014-01-01 01:23:50 PM  

technicolor-misfit:
9 times out 10 these stories go from "OUTRAGE!!!" to "Oh, well that's actually pretty reasonable." within a day or so when all the details come out. Unfortunately, 9 out of 10 people who get "OUTRAGED!!!" by these stories have an ideological axe to grind and refuse to acknowledege the new information or have short attention spans and have already moved to the next "outrage du jour."


Fox News and Daily Mail playbook that is, right there.
 
2014-01-01 01:25:21 PM  

redmid17: Sticky Hands: redmid17: Bamboo grows up to 3" a day. You're going to have to trim or split it to get the rough size you want to carve. Otherwise you are going to be making a gigantic flute.

wouldn't splitting it mess up the shape, thus making it difficult or impossible to make a flute out of it.  Seems like it wood (heh!) but I really don't know.

Like I said, I'm not Nick Offerman but you'd need to trim a bamboo plant/shoot at some point unless you found a shoot that was roughly the size you want it to be.



 When I think of "split" I'm thinking of something like this:
 www.guaduabamboo.com

while a flute looks something like this:
image.rakuten.co.jp


If the bamboo also has to be split in addition to being dry, then the second picture does not qualify.
Maybe that's what landed this guy's work in trouble.

Borders can be nasty though, I remember a bit from some import/export training where the trainer talked about having to pay a $90,000 fine to the Canadian government on some piece of equipment that they had LOANED to Canada for the Olympics because of some paperwork mistake. I don't remember if they managed to get the equipment back.
 
2014-01-01 01:25:31 PM  

some_beer_drinker: [www.roundtree7.com image 800x441]
can we build a bridge out of em'?


*shakes fist
 
2014-01-01 01:26:12 PM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: pyrotek85: Por que tan serioso: pyrotek85: pueblonative: So his ignorance of what is in the laws should be an excuse.  Wonder if that's ever been ruled on by the courts?

I agree with that in principle, but how far can you take it when we have tens of thousands of laws? Yeah, laws that are  malum in se in nature you don't have an excuse for not knowing, but most of this crap is  malum prohibitum. There's no way to know about every obscure law, or when TSA is suddenly to going to interpret the law differently on the spot.

Know how I know you are a 1L?

A what?

He's calling you a first-year law student (hence 1L) for using Latin and making what he perceives to be a bad argument.

In other words. typical dismissive Fark behavior.


Oh, I'm not lol, and I hope I'm not coming off off as one. I think those two phrases are pretty basic principles of law that anyone should be familiar with though, and it helps illustrate my point that it's not realistic for people to know every arbitrary law under the sun. And again, even if you did, they can still reinterpret them at will. Then when you complain, people on the internet will say that you should have known better.

I don't know if the guy was in the wrong or not, but if it was an honest mistake like not declaring or something, then I don't think they should be heavy handed about it. They don't think he's a drug smuggler.
 
2014-01-01 01:27:27 PM  
Wood is an agricultural product.  What's so hard to understand about that?  Just because it's been processed into a finished item it doesn't cease to be an agricultural product.  Just like when cotton is processed into clothing, it's still an agricultural product.  Or at least that's the justification they used last week when I flew into Boston last week and they took my pants away from me.
 
2014-01-01 01:35:32 PM  

edmo: So much for traveling with my guitar.

Seriously, I'm with the "These guys are assholes" crowd here and you "it's the law" types should just go back to your bedrooms and let the NSA continue filming you or whatever.


Laws are generally dreamed up by overpaid, tiny-minded bureaucrats, who never have to actually be in the situations where their precious laws inconvenience them.

An example is those speed bumps that the municipal seat-warmers insist on installing in parking lots. There's zero evidence these are effective in reducing injuries (Just speak to paramedics how they hate driving their ambulances over these things!).

And those officials that enforce these sorts of rules generally know the rules are asinine, but they happily throw judgement to the wind when they enforce them, because, hey, it's so fulfilling just to harass people!
 
2014-01-01 01:37:47 PM  

redmid17: Well they were definitely right to destroy the raw material. The picture in your link shows sealed wood as far as I can tell, so I doubt any pests would go after them. Wouldn't CBP need to destroy the rest of the contents of the suitcase if there was a suspected bug infestation though?



I would think so. But, I don't know enough about it to know what should be destroyed and what shouldn't be destroyed in regard to any of it.

I don't know what the law is, what the flutes where made of, what the "raw" material was or exactly how "raw" it was, whether any of it (instruments or material) was rare or endangered. I don't know what pests may have posed a danger, what sort of danger they pose, or what the likelihood is that any of those possible pests might infest what materials or to what degree, nor how difficult it is to conclusively rule out the presence of such pests.

In short, I can't make a determination regarding the justifiability of the actions of the customs agents because I am an untrained, uninformed layman who lacks the necessary expertise to offer an informed opinion with any semblance of knowing what the hell I'm talking about, and neither so is everyone else in this thread.
 
2014-01-01 01:38:09 PM  

redmid17: Brosephus: redmid17: Brosephus: r1niceboy: pueblonative: r1niceboy: RussianPooper: pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.

Only 4 posts to get to the asshole apologist.

If there's one thing about natives of pueblos, they certainly know how to be submissive to the point of Ned Beatty.

Here's a experiment: go to another country bringing prohibited items and try out the "I didn't know the laws" excuse while asserting your rights and screaming about the fairness of the situation.  Then come back and tell us how many turkish prison cell rapes you experienced.

I've been to lots of countries, none of which took perverse pleasure in enforcing asinine laws. Now, please, explain the harm that a carved piece of wood could do. Please feel free to compare it to, say, a species of invasive fish.

http://www.emeraldashborer.info/#sthash.dZwYnM8p.dpbs

http://www.ohiochapterisa.org/news/87453/

How exactly would it be difficult for CBP to examine carved wooden flutes for the presence of beetles? It's not as if they were being brought into the country by truck because they weighed several tons.

It's not difficult at all.  They would be visually inspected, and if one even has a hint of damage by pest, they would all be destroyed to prohibit the possibility of any pests being introduced into this country.  Likewise, if there are any indicators, such as exoskeleton that has been molted, they will be destroyed even without the presence of the pest.  After pouring several billions of dollars into fighting invasive species, the government thought it would be better to prevent them from entering as opposed to spending billions fighting them after they arrive.

Check out information on the Khapra beetle, Emerald Ash Borer, Mediterranean Fruit Fly, Gypsy Moth, and other invasive species that has cost us billions of dollars.

I don't have to read up on invasive species. I'm well aware of how pervasive they can be (asian carp, zebra mussels, pythons in south florida, et al). My point is, they'd have at least told him if they saw evidence of any of that (or should have told him).

So CBP destroyed his flutes. Possible explanations have been 1) Lacey Act violation or 2) Invasive species, but we haven't seen any proof CBP suspected or proved either. Basically we have a guy whose livelihood has been ruined because CBP had a reason but was too sickish to explain why or just sickish.

Does this strike anyone as acceptable?


So, just because the evidence isn't presented in these 2 highly biased articles, you assume it doesn't exist?
 
2014-01-01 01:38:24 PM  
content6.flixster.com
 
2014-01-01 01:39:16 PM  
technicolor-mistitand neither so is everyone else in this thread 

FTFM.
 
2014-01-01 01:40:45 PM  

machodonkeywrestler: redmid17: Brosephus: redmid17: Brosephus: r1niceboy: pueblonative: r1niceboy: RussianPooper: pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.

Only 4 posts to get to the asshole apologist.

If there's one thing about natives of pueblos, they certainly know how to be submissive to the point of Ned Beatty.

Here's a experiment: go to another country bringing prohibited items and try out the "I didn't know the laws" excuse while asserting your rights and screaming about the fairness of the situation.  Then come back and tell us how many turkish prison cell rapes you experienced.

I've been to lots of countries, none of which took perverse pleasure in enforcing asinine laws. Now, please, explain the harm that a carved piece of wood could do. Please feel free to compare it to, say, a species of invasive fish.

http://www.emeraldashborer.info/#sthash.dZwYnM8p.dpbs

http://www.ohiochapterisa.org/news/87453/

How exactly would it be difficult for CBP to examine carved wooden flutes for the presence of beetles? It's not as if they were being brought into the country by truck because they weighed several tons.

It's not difficult at all.  They would be visually inspected, and if one even has a hint of damage by pest, they would all be destroyed to prohibit the possibility of any pests being introduced into this country.  Likewise, if there are any indicators, such as exoskeleton that has been molted, they will be destroyed even without the presence of the pest.  After pouring several billions of dollars into fighting invasive species, the government thought it would be better to prevent them from entering as opposed to spending billions fighting them after they arrive.

Check out information on the Khapra beetle, Emerald Ash Borer, Mediterranean Fruit Fly, Gypsy Moth, and other invasive species that has cost us billions of dollars.

I don't have to read up on invasive species. I'm well aware of how pervasive they can be (asian carp, zeb ...


The Boston Globe article was highly, highly biased, let me tell you. The CBP told him "We broke your shiat. Call the Department of Agriculture."
 
2014-01-01 01:43:59 PM  

redmid17: Sticky Hands: redmid17: http://www.boston.com/names/2013/12/31/customs-officials-destroys-flu t e-virtuoso-instruments/fBlZdUpxw3EKWOzdyyvwXM/story.html

The flute virtuoso who performs regularly with The Boston Camerata lost 13 handmade flutes over the holidays when a US Customs official at New York's JFK Airport mistook the instruments for pieces of bamboo and destroyed them. Razgui, a Canadian citizen who lives some of the time in Brockton, had flown last week from Morocco to Boston, with stops in Madrid and New York. In New York, he says, an official opened his luggage and found the 13 flutelike instruments - 11 nays and two kawalas. Razgui says he had made all of the instruments using hard-to-find reeds. "They said this is an agriculture item," said Razgui, who was not present when his bag was opened. "I fly with them in and out all the time and this is the first time there has been a problem. This is my life." When his baggage arrived in Boston, the instruments were gone. He was instead given a number to call. "They told me they were destroyed," he says. "Nobody talked to me. They said I have to write a letter to the Department of Agriculture in Washington, D.C. This is horrible. I don't know what to do. I've never written letters to people." -

Sweet. Love to see pre emptive enforcement of a regulation THAT DOESN'T APPLY. Even if it was bamboo, guess what CBP says about that:

Bamboo that is thoroughly dried and split or cut lengthwise (rendering it incapable of propagation) will be inspected upon entry and released.

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1359/~/importing-bamboo -i nto-the-us

Now I am not Nick Offerman or Bob Vila, but I imagine a carved instrument that has existed for several years would likely be thoroughly dried and cut/split, even if it weren't made out of bamboo.


now I'm not flutegenieer, so I may be wrong,  but I suspect that  if you split it or cut it lengthwise, it's going to let all the flutey goodness out.

Bamboo grows up to 3" a day. You're going to have to trim or split it to get the rough size you want to carve. Otherwise you are going to be making a gigantic flute.


Swing and a miss.
 
2014-01-01 01:46:36 PM  
So we have to worry about imported wood products.
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-01-01 01:46:39 PM  

machodonkeywrestler: redmid17: Sticky Hands: redmid17: http://www.boston.com/names/2013/12/31/customs-officials-destroys-flu t e-virtuoso-instruments/fBlZdUpxw3EKWOzdyyvwXM/story.html

The flute virtuoso who performs regularly with The Boston Camerata lost 13 handmade flutes over the holidays when a US Customs official at New York's JFK Airport mistook the instruments for pieces of bamboo and destroyed them. Razgui, a Canadian citizen who lives some of the time in Brockton, had flown last week from Morocco to Boston, with stops in Madrid and New York. In New York, he says, an official opened his luggage and found the 13 flutelike instruments - 11 nays and two kawalas. Razgui says he had made all of the instruments using hard-to-find reeds. "They said this is an agriculture item," said Razgui, who was not present when his bag was opened. "I fly with them in and out all the time and this is the first time there has been a problem. This is my life." When his baggage arrived in Boston, the instruments were gone. He was instead given a number to call. "They told me they were destroyed," he says. "Nobody talked to me. They said I have to write a letter to the Department of Agriculture in Washington, D.C. This is horrible. I don't know what to do. I've never written letters to people." -

Sweet. Love to see pre emptive enforcement of a regulation THAT DOESN'T APPLY. Even if it was bamboo, guess what CBP says about that:

Bamboo that is thoroughly dried and split or cut lengthwise (rendering it incapable of propagation) will be inspected upon entry and released.

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1359/~/importing-bamboo -i nto-the-us

Now I am not Nick Offerman or Bob Vila, but I imagine a carved instrument that has existed for several years would likely be thoroughly dried and cut/split, even if it weren't made out of bamboo.


now I'm not flutegenieer, so I may be wrong,  but I suspect that  if you split it or cut it lengthwise, it's going to let all the flutey goodness out.

Bambo ...


Please explain if I'm wrong. I've carved a few things, never a music instrument. Generally when I want to carve something I make sure the source material is roughly of the same size, maybe slightly larger. If I have a 3' piece of bamboo for a 12" flute, I am going to cut a good size chunk of it off before I start carving.
 
2014-01-01 01:48:38 PM  

alexjoss: Welcome to America, flautist--love it or leave it.  Customs agents are just a step above security guards


Actually in my experience, I'm pretty sure that US border patrol agents actually failed the mall security IQ test.

/almost worth hiring a lawyer when crossing the border to put these asshats in their place
 
2014-01-01 01:48:47 PM  

Day_Old_Dutchie: edmo: So much for traveling with my guitar.

Seriously, I'm with the "These guys are assholes" crowd here and you "it's the law" types should just go back to your bedrooms and let the NSA continue filming you or whatever.

Laws are generally dreamed up by overpaid, tiny-minded bureaucrats, who never have to actually be in the situations where their precious laws inconvenience them.

An example is those speed bumps that the municipal seat-warmers insist on installing in parking lots. There's zero evidence these are effective in reducing injuries (Just speak to paramedics how they hate driving their ambulances over these things!).

And those officials that enforce these sorts of rules generally know the rules are asinine, but they happily throw judgement to the wind when they enforce them, because, hey, it's so fulfilling just to harass people!


Unlike  Day_Old_Dutchie, whose expertise in the area of pest infestion and the legal framework surrounding agricultural importation is the stuff of legend... spoken of far and wide, by men, women, and children alike.

"Oh, that  Day_Old_Dutchie" they say, "if you want to know something about invasive species, or the necessary precautions needed to prevent them, he's your fella for sure!!! There ain't nobody in this whole country, east to west, or anywheres in between, what knows more about these issues and the laws that surround them!

He's like a walking 100% completely unabridged encyclopedia devoted solely to agricultural infestation... and a living, breathing legal library of U.S. customs policies and import laws! Whatever he says about such topics, boy, you can take it to the bank!!!"
 
2014-01-01 01:53:24 PM  

big pig peaches: There has to be more to this story. They don't routinely go around destroying everything made of wood.

Maybe this story was originally from the Onion or something.


Disclaimer:  I conduct agriculture quarantine inspections at a different major airport.

I'd like to know more.  The quarantine manuals on wood (http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/manuals/ports/downloa ds /miscellaneous.pdf starts at pg 3-135 but the relevant parts are on pgs 3-136 and 3-137) show that handicrafts are to be inspected and released if no pests are found.  If no pests were found and the wood already carved into flutes, they should have been let go.

/Quarantine inspection manuals are on USDA's public website.
 
2014-01-01 01:53:55 PM  
Interesting article about how these flutes are made:
http://www.umbc.edu/eol/tmq/tamer/
It looks like they are made out of reed plants, not hardwood.
 
2014-01-01 01:54:42 PM  
"Now I am not Nick Offerman or Bob Vila, but I imagine a carved instrument that has existed for several years would likely be thoroughly dried and cut/split, even if it weren't made out of bamboo."


I have no idea... But, I do know that being roughly 8 years old and spending all of that time outdoors in all manner of weather conditions did not prevent the adirondack chair I built from becoming completely infested by Wood-Boring Beetles.
 
2014-01-01 01:56:20 PM  
Guess US customs should confiscate every wooden baseball bat in professional sports. The wood comes from Canada.

Don't forget the furniture or building supplies.

Just pile it all up in Detroit and light it. I'll watch from Windsor as usual.
 
2014-01-01 01:57:24 PM  
Let's face it. This is a simple case of malicious compliance. The rules are there for a reason and this idiot either chose to maliciously enforce rules that clearly did not apply, or legitimately could not mentally distinguish between processed end products and raw materials.

As an amateur wood turner, I would hate to think that a piece of wood that I had spent hours turning into a piece of art had been destroyed by some idiot in a bureaucratic stupor. But border agents and TSA are not selected for being Harvard Valedictorians, are they?
 
2014-01-01 01:58:43 PM  

technicolor-misfit: "Now I am not Nick Offerman or Bob Vila, but I imagine a carved instrument that has existed for several years would likely be thoroughly dried and cut/split, even if it weren't made out of bamboo."


I have no idea... But, I do know that being roughly 8 years old and spending all of that time outdoors in all manner of weather conditions did not prevent the adirondack chair I built from becoming completely infested by Wood-Boring Beetles.


Even if you sealed the chair, you're comparing rotten grapes to raisins. An outdoor chair is hardly like a flute kept in good care and not exposed to the elements.
 
2014-01-01 02:01:00 PM  
These guys should take a class on nature and the city. EVERYTHING is made from nature. The computer you are using has plastics made from oil, which is a natural resources.
 
2014-01-01 02:04:08 PM  

redmid17: technicolor-misfit: "Now I am not Nick Offerman or Bob Vila, but I imagine a carved instrument that has existed for several years would likely be thoroughly dried and cut/split, even if it weren't made out of bamboo."


I have no idea... But, I do know that being roughly 8 years old and spending all of that time outdoors in all manner of weather conditions did not prevent the adirondack chair I built from becoming completely infested by Wood-Boring Beetles.

Even if you sealed the chair, you're comparing rotten grapes to raisins. An outdoor chair is hardly like a flute kept in good care and not exposed to the elements.



But, it does negate the idea that seems to be floating through this thread that just because something is cut and "dead" that it is no longer a potential danger for infestation.

No one else in this thread has any more expertise than I do on the threat posed by pest infestation nor the level of scrutiny required to eliminate it, and they are armchair quarterbacking the people who do.

I'm not saying that anyone is necessarily wrong. The customs agents may well have been overzealous and completely, but give everyone's lack of ACTUAL knowledge (as opposed to "pulled from my ass" theorizing and assumption-making) they might be a little more humble about their utterly uninformed opinions.
 
2014-01-01 02:05:18 PM  

technicolor-misfit: Since we're only hearing the guy's side of the story, I refuse to jump up and down in outrage.

Most times I've heard of something being refused entry or declared ineligible to bring on a plane, the traveler has the option to ship it home if it means enough to them.

I really doubt they snatched the flutes out of his hand and said "they're ours now and we're going to immolate them right before your eyes as tribute to our dearest holy one, the great and benevolent Barack Hussein Obama, all peace be upon him!!!"

I'll eat my hat if he didn't have some other options that he's conveniently omitting because they'll knock all the outrage right out of his "Big Brother run amok" story.

9 times out 10 these stories go from "OUTRAGE!!!" to "Oh, well that's actually pretty reasonable." within a day or so when all the details come out. Unfortunately, 9 out of 10 people who get "OUTRAGED!!!" by these stories have an ideological axe to grind and refuse to acknowledege the new information or have short attention spans and have already moved to the next "outrage du jour."


You've never dealt with border security, have you? If you have been fortunate not to deal with an asshat (they probably exist), try taking a bus across and back. Because you are on a bus, they feel that they can treat you as a second class citizen.
 
2014-01-01 02:06:16 PM  
technicolor-misfit - "The customs agents may well have been overzealous and completely farked up,but given everyone's..."
 
2014-01-01 02:06:54 PM  
You're an internationally renowned flautist

Ok, it's bad enough the guy had his work destroyed, why feel the need to point out that he passes gas?  However, something tells me his "flutes" had a carburetor.
 
2014-01-01 02:08:04 PM  

redmid17: machodonkeywrestler: redmid17: Sticky Hands: redmid17: http://www.boston.com/names/2013/12/31/customs-officials-destroys-flu t e-virtuoso-instruments/fBlZdUpxw3EKWOzdyyvwXM/story.html

The flute virtuoso who performs regularly with The Boston Camerata lost 13 handmade flutes over the holidays when a US Customs official at New York's JFK Airport mistook the instruments for pieces of bamboo and destroyed them. Razgui, a Canadian citizen who lives some of the time in Brockton, had flown last week from Morocco to Boston, with stops in Madrid and New York. In New York, he says, an official opened his luggage and found the 13 flutelike instruments - 11 nays and two kawalas. Razgui says he had made all of the instruments using hard-to-find reeds. "They said this is an agriculture item," said Razgui, who was not present when his bag was opened. "I fly with them in and out all the time and this is the first time there has been a problem. This is my life." When his baggage arrived in Boston, the instruments were gone. He was instead given a number to call. "They told me they were destroyed," he says. "Nobody talked to me. They said I have to write a letter to the Department of Agriculture in Washington, D.C. This is horrible. I don't know what to do. I've never written letters to people." -

Sweet. Love to see pre emptive enforcement of a regulation THAT DOESN'T APPLY. Even if it was bamboo, guess what CBP says about that:

Bamboo that is thoroughly dried and split or cut lengthwise (rendering it incapable of propagation) will be inspected upon entry and released.

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1359/~/importing-bamboo -i nto-the-us

Now I am not Nick Offerman or Bob Vila, but I imagine a carved instrument that has existed for several years would likely be thoroughly dried and cut/split, even if it weren't made out of bamboo.


now I'm not flutegenieer, so I may be wrong,  but I suspect that  if you split it or cut it lengthwise, it's going to let all the flutey goodness out.

Bambo ...

Please explain if I'm wrong. I've carved a few things, never a music instrument. Generally when I want to carve something I make sure the source material is roughly of the same size, maybe slightly larger. If I have a 3' piece of bamboo for a 12" flute, I am going to cut a good size chunk of it off before I start carving.


You're wrong. The grain of bamboo runs lengthwise so by cutting with the grain. You no longer have a circular hollow piece of would. If you really have carved anything, you shouldn't need this explained to you.
 
2014-01-01 02:08:39 PM  

Electrify: You've never dealt with border security, have you? If you have been fortunate not to deal with an asshat (they probably exist), try taking a bus across and back. Because you are on a bus, they feel that they can treat you as a second class citizen.


I sympathize.

But that doesn't make the agents in this story wrong.

It's like saying "you've never been mugged by a black guy, have you?"
 
2014-01-01 02:09:02 PM  

smerfnablin: I was outraged until I saw the "Islamic scholar" part

Btw, why saw 10 in a million instead of 1 in 100,000?


Thread.  Wrong.
 
2014-01-01 02:09:34 PM  

pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.


Or rule out coming to Worst Germany in the first place. At least the Gestapo had snappy uniforms and weren't fat and stupid.
 
2014-01-01 02:10:00 PM  
There's got to me more to this story.
Even Australia with probably the strictest restrictions on foodstuffs and agricultural items allows people to pay a storage fee where your items are held in quarantine and returned to you as you board a plane departing Australia again.  Sounds as if this guy was as stupid as the lack-of-any-common-sense custom agent he encountered.
 
2014-01-01 02:13:23 PM  

Thallone1: But border agents and TSA are not selected for being Harvard Valedictorians, are they?


Most are fine. Some are petty assholes. This smells like someone pissed off at having to work New Year's Eve and looking to take it out on travelers.
 
2014-01-01 02:13:55 PM  

HindiDiscoMonster: machodonkeywrestler: You're wrong. The grain of bamboo runs lengthwise so by cutting with the grain. You no longer have a circular hollow piece of would wood. If you really have carved anything, you shouldn't need this explained to you.

/FTFY


Thanks. Saw as soon as I posted.
 
2014-01-01 02:20:44 PM  

technicolor-misfit: Electrify: You've never dealt with border security, have you? If you have been fortunate not to deal with an asshat (they probably exist), try taking a bus across and back. Because you are on a bus, they feel that they can treat you as a second class citizen.

I sympathize.

But that doesn't make the agents in this story wrong.

It's like saying "you've never been mugged by a black guy, have you?"


Fair enough. Just don't be too surprised if we are in fact getting the full story.

/saw them give a Chinese guy who barely spoke English a hard time because he brought some cooking knives with him...
//...packed away underneath in the stowaway luggage, where they could not hurt anyone
 
2014-01-01 02:21:06 PM  
they are for goat!
 
2014-01-01 02:25:02 PM  

machodonkeywrestler: redmid17: machodonkeywrestler: redmid17: Sticky Hands: redmid17: http://www.boston.com/names/2013/12/31/customs-officials-destroys-flu t e-virtuoso-instruments/fBlZdUpxw3EKWOzdyyvwXM/story.html

The flute virtuoso who performs regularly with The Boston Camerata lost 13 handmade flutes over the holidays when a US Customs official at New York's JFK Airport mistook the instruments for pieces of bamboo and destroyed them. Razgui, a Canadian citizen who lives some of the time in Brockton, had flown last week from Morocco to Boston, with stops in Madrid and New York. In New York, he says, an official opened his luggage and found the 13 flutelike instruments - 11 nays and two kawalas. Razgui says he had made all of the instruments using hard-to-find reeds. "They said this is an agriculture item," said Razgui, who was not present when his bag was opened. "I fly with them in and out all the time and this is the first time there has been a problem. This is my life." When his baggage arrived in Boston, the instruments were gone. He was instead given a number to call. "They told me they were destroyed," he says. "Nobody talked to me. They said I have to write a letter to the Department of Agriculture in Washington, D.C. This is horrible. I don't know what to do. I've never written letters to people." -

Sweet. Love to see pre emptive enforcement of a regulation THAT DOESN'T APPLY. Even if it was bamboo, guess what CBP says about that:

Bamboo that is thoroughly dried and split or cut lengthwise (rendering it incapable of propagation) will be inspected upon entry and released.

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1359/~/importing-bamboo -i nto-the-us

Now I am not Nick Offerman or Bob Vila, but I imagine a carved instrument that has existed for several years would likely be thoroughly dried and cut/split, even if it weren't made out of bamboo.


now I'm not flutegenieer, so I may be wrong,  but I suspect that  if you split it or cut it lengthwise, it's going to let all ...


So how exactly does one trim  bamboo to length? At a certain point you need to go against the grain. You don't want to split wood, so you try to not to do it wherever possible, but you're going to be trimming, carving, or cutting against the grain at some point.
 
2014-01-01 02:25:13 PM  

RussianPooper: pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.

Only 4 posts to get to the asshole apologist.


How dare there be more than one side to a story!
 
2014-01-01 02:35:35 PM  
Going along with this line of thought, does that mean that a violin or guitar, being made of wood, must also be destroyed?  Just curious as if one goes along with the position that something made of an agricultural product must not be brought over the border, then cotton clothes would also be prohibited and must be destroyed as well as the wood dash appointments in your Cadillac, etc.  So there must either have been some self-appointed thug here at work or there must have been something else at work to cause these particular items to be singled out.  There must be more to this than meets the eye.
 
2014-01-01 02:42:42 PM  
mangocop:Disclaimer:  I conduct agriculture quarantine inspections at a different major airport.

I'd like to know more.  The quarantine manuals on wood (http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/manuals/ports/downloa ds /miscellaneous.pdf starts at pg 3-135 but the relevant parts are on pgs 3-136 and 3-137) show that handicrafts are to be inspected and released if no pests are found.  If no pests were found and the wood already carved into flutes, they should have been let go.


[bagpipe joke.jpg]
 
2014-01-01 02:43:27 PM  
I am inconsolably outraged by this 168-word article lacking in basic details! No further information will quell this outrage!
 
2014-01-01 02:44:14 PM  
The border guys are assholes when it comes to plants. They won't even let a plant/tree that sits on the side of the road across the border. Like there is some magical force field keeping the plant from spreading 2 feet.
 
2014-01-01 02:44:54 PM  

redmid17: Meanwhile nothing in the US CBP guidelines mentions wood at all:

http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/clearing/agri_prod_inus.xml

I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?


Speaking as a former customs inspector, the wood must be sealed airtight, with paint, laquer, or varnish before importation. The purpose is to kill larvae in the wood.
 
2014-01-01 02:47:14 PM  
you know that stuff they use to print money on.... agricultural product...

OK  well, not Canada,  they use plastic...  guess they saw this one coming...   :)

/or maybe not...
 
2014-01-01 02:48:34 PM  

machodonkeywrestler: redmid17: machodonkeywrestler: redmid17: Sticky Hands: redmid17: http://www.boston.com/names/2013/12/31/customs-officials-destroys-flu t e-virtuoso-instruments/fBlZdUpxw3EKWOzdyyvwXM/story.html

The flute virtuoso who performs regularly with The Boston Camerata lost 13 handmade flutes over the holidays when a US Customs official at New York's JFK Airport mistook the instruments for pieces of bamboo and destroyed them. Razgui, a Canadian citizen who lives some of the time in Brockton, had flown last week from Morocco to Boston, with stops in Madrid and New York. In New York, he says, an official opened his luggage and found the 13 flutelike instruments - 11 nays and two kawalas. Razgui says he had made all of the instruments using hard-to-find reeds. "They said this is an agriculture item," said Razgui, who was not present when his bag was opened. "I fly with them in and out all the time and this is the first time there has been a problem. This is my life." When his baggage arrived in Boston, the instruments were gone. He was instead given a number to call. "They told me they were destroyed," he says. "Nobody talked to me. They said I have to write a letter to the Department of Agriculture in Washington, D.C. This is horrible. I don't know what to do. I've never written letters to people." -

Sweet. Love to see pre emptive enforcement of a regulation THAT DOESN'T APPLY. Even if it was bamboo, guess what CBP says about that:

Bamboo that is thoroughly dried and split or cut lengthwise (rendering it incapable of propagation) will be inspected upon entry and released.

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1359/~/importing-bamboo -i nto-the-us

Now I am not Nick Offerman or Bob Vila, but I imagine a carved instrument that has existed for several years would likely be thoroughly dried and cut/split, even if it weren't made out of bamboo.


now I'm not flutegenieer, so I may be wrong,  but I suspect that  if you split it or cut it lengthwise, it's going to let all ...


Because someone who carves maple or oak knows everything about bamboo right? They are quite different and while the structure may seem obvious, not everyone has had their hands on raw bamboo. Some people only experience bamboo flooring or cutting boards and they are laminated into blocks. Those blocks could be carved much like a normal chunk of wood.
 
2014-01-01 02:49:46 PM  

95BV5: redmid17: Meanwhile nothing in the US CBP guidelines mentions wood at all:

http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/clearing/agri_prod_inus.xml

I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?

Speaking as a former customs inspector, the wood must be sealed airtight, with paint, laquer, or varnish before importation. The purpose is to kill larvae in the wood.


Would radiation and evidence of the wood being sterilized also work?
 
2014-01-01 02:55:54 PM  
Did they use the large scales to determine it weighed the same as a duck
 
2014-01-01 02:56:42 PM  

Oldiron_79: Did they use the large scales to determine it weighed the same as a duck


They could have just seen if the flutes floated. No need for the scales.
 
2014-01-01 02:58:51 PM  

pueblonative: r1niceboy: RussianPooper: pueblonative: It's almost as if you have to consult customs laws when you travel abroad.

Only 4 posts to get to the asshole apologist.

If there's one thing about natives of pueblos, they certainly know how to be submissive to the point of Ned Beatty.

Here's a experiment: go to another country bringing prohibited items and try out the "I didn't know the laws" excuse while asserting your rights and screaming about the fairness of the situation.  Then come back and tell us how many turkish prison cell rapes you experienced.


So have you ever been inside a Turkish prison
 
2014-01-01 03:05:15 PM  

Joe Peanut: AgentKGB: [images01.olx.com image 625x469]

Agricultural products...


That's an AK-47
 
2014-01-01 03:06:42 PM  

Electrify: technicolor-misfit: Electrify: You've never dealt with border security, have you? If you have been fortunate not to deal with an asshat (they probably exist), try taking a bus across and back. Because you are on a bus, they feel that they can treat you as a second class citizen.

I sympathize.

But that doesn't make the agents in this story wrong.

It's like saying "you've never been mugged by a black guy, have you?"

Fair enough. Just don't be too surprised if we are in fact getting the full story.

/saw them give a Chinese guy who barely spoke English a hard time because he brought some cooking knives with him...
//...packed away underneath in the stowaway luggage, where they could not hurt anyone



I'm not ruling it out. I've dealt with bad bureaucrats myself. I literally have no opinion on whether this was justified. I'm not saying what they did was right. I don't know what they did or why. I'm just saying that we don't know, and all of this conjecture has about as much realistic basis as middle schoolers talking about the inner-workings of the flux capacitor, or 50 year old oddballs theorizing about whether or not El Chupacabra is a carnivore or an omnivore.  

Also, I'm just very aware that a lot of things that seem arbitrary or capricious to laymen, often have a very reasonable explanation which just happens to be rooted in something they're unaware of or don't understand.

It's like a "police shut down children's lemonade stand!!!" story I saw where everyone was shiatting themselves with rage about jackbooted thugs terrorizing these poor children for the sake of strengthening the police state.

Well, turns out the "children's" lemonade stand was:

a.) set up right outside the gates of a fairground in which a huge car show was taking place and which was filled with licensed concession vendors (the organizers' rent the fairgrounds, the concessions vendors rent the right to set up at the show)
b.) was stocked with a couple hundred dollars worth of beverages, snacks, and candies in wholesale packaging

So, what you actually had was some asshole who tried to glom on to someone else's efforts and investment for his own profit without contributing, and who thought he could get away with it by using his kids as human shields which he hoped would prevent him from being busted.

Everyone was so jacked up on their outrage and their certainty that the story was exactly as they assumed according to their preconceived notions, that they didn't even bother to consider the possibility that MAYBE the little movie playing in their head wasn't actually documentary footage.
 
2014-01-01 03:11:51 PM  

ReverendJynxed: machodonkeywrestler: redmid17: machodonkeywrestler: redmid17: Sticky Hands: redmid17: http://www.boston.com/names/2013/12/31/customs-officials-destroys-flu t e-virtuoso-instruments/fBlZdUpxw3EKWOzdyyvwXM/story.html

The flute virtuoso who performs regularly with The Boston Camerata lost 13 handmade flutes over the holidays when a US Customs official at New York's JFK Airport mistook the instruments for pieces of bamboo and destroyed them. Razgui, a Canadian citizen who lives some of the time in Brockton, had flown last week from Morocco to Boston, with stops in Madrid and New York. In New York, he says, an official opened his luggage and found the 13 flutelike instruments - 11 nays and two kawalas. Razgui says he had made all of the instruments using hard-to-find reeds. "They said this is an agriculture item," said Razgui, who was not present when his bag was opened. "I fly with them in and out all the time and this is the first time there has been a problem. This is my life." When his baggage arrived in Boston, the instruments were gone. He was instead given a number to call. "They told me they were destroyed," he says. "Nobody talked to me. They said I have to write a letter to the Department of Agriculture in Washington, D.C. This is horrible. I don't know what to do. I've never written letters to people." -

Sweet. Love to see pre emptive enforcement of a regulation THAT DOESN'T APPLY. Even if it was bamboo, guess what CBP says about that:

Bamboo that is thoroughly dried and split or cut lengthwise (rendering it incapable of propagation) will be inspected upon entry and released.

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1359/~/importing-bamboo -i nto-the-us

Now I am not Nick Offerman or Bob Vila, but I imagine a carved instrument that has existed for several years would likely be thoroughly dried and cut/split, even if it weren't made out of bamboo.


now I'm not flutegenieer, so I may be wrong,  but I suspect that  if you split it or cut it lengthwise, i ...


This more or less illustrates my point. This guy is walking through how to make a bamboo flute and clearly cut across the grain...to size the bamboo properly, which was the entire reason I cited in the first place.

http://jpdery.com/S-flute.html

i.imgur.com
 
2014-01-01 03:19:06 PM  
While I feel sorry for the guy for loosing his flutes , he should have checked the US Customs website to see if there would be any issues with his wooden flutes and if it seemed their might be , he should have emailed them to see what could be done to legally bring them in the country.

The law is the law and in this case its for a good reason.
 
2014-01-01 03:21:45 PM  

aleks14: God Bless America in all its glorious idiocy.



I think the US should declare EVERY PERSON and EVERYTHING from Canada as an agricultural product and BAN ALL OF IT!!


Cheap bastards.   fark Canada.
 
2014-01-01 03:31:02 PM  
See that's the regulation they use as a pretext because you start blowing those love craftian flutes and this guy starts showing up.
img.fark.net
 
2014-01-01 03:35:21 PM  

phamwaa: ChewbaccaJones: I read "flautist" and instantly pictured a guy that eats flautas for a living.
Now I'm craving flautas.
Thanks a farking heap, subby.

As long as they're the real thing and not glorified taquitos, I'm in.


Yes.
+ guac
 
2014-01-01 03:36:32 PM  

whiterrabbit: It does appear that the TSA agents where correct.  Agricultural products must be destroyed.....if the person who wishes to fly is a p*ssy and is too dumb to mail his precious goods.  He DID have options.   TSA is right about some things...stop the witch hunt.


Which reminds me.  Considering that they're destroying everything made of wood, she's lucky they didn't accuse her of witchcraft.
 
2014-01-01 03:52:32 PM  
I'm too lazy to make a good flatulist/fart joke today.
 
2014-01-01 03:58:07 PM  
It is illegal to destroy ANYTHING prior to giving notice to the property owner... that and it is illegal to just randomly destroy agricultural products to begin with,  just throwing fruits on the ground and stomping on them would release the bugs inside.   There are procedures for destruction of property and "stomping on it" is NEVER one.

If they'd stomped on a Strad there would be a massive shiatstorm.  It's an agricultural product too!
 
2014-01-01 03:58:39 PM  

smerfnablin: I was outraged until I saw the "Islamic scholar" part

Btw, why saw 10 in a million instead of 1 in 100,00


Which article are you commenting on?
 
2014-01-01 04:02:04 PM  

95BV5: Speaking as a former customs inspector, the wood must be sealed airtight, with paint, laquer, or varnish before importation. The purpose is to kill larvae in the wood.


Lacquer? I hardly knew her!
 
2014-01-01 04:02:31 PM  

sleeps in trees: centrifugal bumblepuppy:

That pic is surprisingly accurate. At least where I lived in CO.


Really?  While Coloradans love guns, it tends to be one of the least fat states in the union.
 
2014-01-01 04:05:09 PM  

edmo: So much for traveling with my guitar.

Seriously, I'm with the "These guys are assholes" crowd here and you "it's the law" types should just go back to your bedrooms and let the NSA continue filming you or whatever.


I have been told that if you think American customs officials are dicks, you should try bringing a guitar from Ireland to the UK sometime.
 
2014-01-01 04:08:10 PM  

prjindigo: It is illegal to destroy ANYTHING prior to giving notice to the property owner... that and it is illegal to just randomly destroy agricultural products to begin with,  just throwing fruits on the ground and stomping on them would release the bugs inside.   There are procedures for destruction of property and "stomping on it" is NEVER one.

If they'd stomped on a Strad there would be a massive shiatstorm.  It's an agricultural product too!


Christ, do you have any idea how stupid you sound? There's just... nothing correct about what you're writing. At all.
 
2014-01-01 04:13:19 PM  

g4lt: FTFA "The ney flute could be made from bamboo, is that agricultural?".  Actually, yes http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/improvement/lawn-garden/4323342 .  The thing is, right then and there the reader should realize that there's more to this story than meets the eye (that, and the story is actually a press release from the alleged victim, no axe to grind there, amirite?).  First, misrepresenting bamboo as non-agricultural raises a BIG flag: dude doesn't even know about the woods he's allegedly using, which brings us to the second part: he said they COULD be made of bamboo, not that they were, sounds a LOT like a CYA.  There are a lot of woods that WILL get destroyed at the border, regardless of what it's been carved into, by Customs, most of which are because the wood in question is either an endangered species or the wood is harvested in a horribly unsustainable method, like clearcutting rainforests


That's not the sort of agricultural that the flautist was talking about. 'Agricultural' usually means 'if we let these veggies\fruits in they'll introduce a pest'. On the rare occasion it includes wood, that's usually along the lines of firewood or something else--it doesn't include flutes, which would have been covered in varnish and left in environments where pests would quickly die. Unless it can be proven that the flutes were all made of wood that was an endangered species\harvested in a way that normally prompts destruction (and I mean all), there was no logical reason to destroy the flutes, since they posed no threat to the environment.

In other words, a lawsuit should clear this up real fast.
 
2014-01-01 04:21:07 PM  

technicolor-misfit: But that doesn't make the agents in this story wrong.


They're bureaucratic apparatchiks.   They can safely be assumed to be wrong by default unless demonstrated otherwise by a preponderance of evidence.

prjindigo: There are procedures for destruction of property and "stomping on it" is NEVER one.


This.   It was purely malicious, probably motivated by the fact that the guy is of middle eastern origin.
 
2014-01-01 04:25:05 PM  
Sticky Hands:

If the bamboo also has to be split in addition to being dry, then the second picture does not qualify.
Maybe that's what landed this guy's work in trouble.


The people dwelling on the 'split AND dry' idea didn't read the paragraphs after that one in the  http://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1359/~/importing-bamboo-i n to-the-us link.  The ones that say:

"Unsplit dried bamboo canes/stakes/poles also are allowed entry into the United States after inspection: however, if the bamboo canes/stakes/poles are intended for garden or nursery use, the shipment must be fumigated (T404-d treatment extended to 24 hours) upon arrival at the U.S. port of entry.

Bamboo furniture, bamboo cloth, and other manufactured products made of bamboo do not require fumigation and will be released upon inspection."
 
2014-01-01 04:26:31 PM  

phojo1946: So there must either have been some self-appointed thug here at work or there must have been something else at work to cause these particular items to be singled out


Perhaps the "something else" is the fact that the guy is an EEEVIL MOOSLIM.
 
2014-01-01 04:41:11 PM  
"I don't know what to do. I've never written letters to people."

This sucks and all but stop being such a whiner. Yes, you can write a farking letter. It's not rocket surgery.
 
2014-01-01 04:48:26 PM  

PsiChick: That's not the sort of agricultural that the flautist was talking about. 'Agricultural' usually means 'if we let these veggies\fruits in they'll introduce a pest'. On the rare occasion it includes wood, that's usually along the lines of firewood or something else--it doesn't include flutes, which would have been covered in varnish and left in environments where pests would quickly die. Unless it can be proven that the flutes were all made of wood that was an endangered species\harvested in a way that normally prompts destruction (and I mean all), there was no logical reason to destroy the flutes, since they posed no threat to the environment.


Except he made them. Maybe they weren't sealed with an accepted product.
 
2014-01-01 04:51:43 PM  

WelldeadLink: PsiChick: That's not the sort of agricultural that the flautist was talking about. 'Agricultural' usually means 'if we let these veggies\fruits in they'll introduce a pest'. On the rare occasion it includes wood, that's usually along the lines of firewood or something else--it doesn't include flutes, which would have been covered in varnish and left in environments where pests would quickly die. Unless it can be proven that the flutes were all made of wood that was an endangered species\harvested in a way that normally prompts destruction (and I mean all), there was no logical reason to destroy the flutes, since they posed no threat to the environment.

Except he made them. Maybe they weren't sealed with an accepted product.


The only picture we've seen of them showed them sealed:

www.artsjournal.com
 
2014-01-01 04:52:05 PM  

Jument: "I don't know what to do. I've never written letters to people."

This sucks and all but stop being such a whiner. Yes, you can write a farking letter. It's not rocket surgery.



A single letter is not enough. No, you will have to string them into words, sentences, paragraphs! Where will it end? We are talking about the bottom of a page here!
 
2014-01-01 04:53:46 PM  

WelldeadLink: PsiChick: That's not the sort of agricultural that the flautist was talking about. 'Agricultural' usually means 'if we let these veggies\fruits in they'll introduce a pest'. On the rare occasion it includes wood, that's usually along the lines of firewood or something else--it doesn't include flutes, which would have been covered in varnish and left in environments where pests would quickly die. Unless it can be proven that the flutes were all made of wood that was an endangered species\harvested in a way that normally prompts destruction (and I mean all), there was no logical reason to destroy the flutes, since they posed no threat to the environment.

Except he made them. Maybe they weren't sealed with an accepted product.


There's a type of wood varnish that bugs and mold can  survive? Assuming he used moldy wood anyway?
 
2014-01-01 04:55:22 PM  
I travel with wooden knitting needles and the TSA has never bothered me about them.

dayliliescreative.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-01-01 04:57:56 PM  

FizixJunkee: I travel with wooden knitting needles and the TSA has never bothered me about them.

[dayliliescreative.files.wordpress.com image 850x461]


This was CBP not TSA. TSA has enough issues without dragging them into this thread.
 
2014-01-01 05:00:42 PM  

redmid17: WelldeadLink: PsiChick: That's not the sort of agricultural that the flautist was talking about. 'Agricultural' usually means 'if we let these veggies\fruits in they'll introduce a pest'. On the rare occasion it includes wood, that's usually along the lines of firewood or something else--it doesn't include flutes, which would have been covered in varnish and left in environments where pests would quickly die. Unless it can be proven that the flutes were all made of wood that was an endangered species\harvested in a way that normally prompts destruction (and I mean all), there was no logical reason to destroy the flutes, since they posed no threat to the environment.

Except he made them. Maybe they weren't sealed with an accepted product.

The only picture we've seen of them showed them sealed:

[www.artsjournal.com image 266x198]


Well, I hate to point out the obvious, but they're hollow. We don't know if the inner area has been finished.

While I'll admit that I have absolutely no idea if that could pose a problem, do you know for a fact that it couldn't?
 
2014-01-01 05:02:06 PM  
captainktainer:
"just throwing fruits on the ground and stomping on them would release the bugs inside. "

There's just... nothing correct about what you're writing. At all.


Really ? not a single thing ?
 
2014-01-01 05:07:16 PM  

technicolor-misfit: redmid17: WelldeadLink: PsiChick: That's not the sort of agricultural that the flautist was talking about. 'Agricultural' usually means 'if we let these veggies\fruits in they'll introduce a pest'. On the rare occasion it includes wood, that's usually along the lines of firewood or something else--it doesn't include flutes, which would have been covered in varnish and left in environments where pests would quickly die. Unless it can be proven that the flutes were all made of wood that was an endangered species\harvested in a way that normally prompts destruction (and I mean all), there was no logical reason to destroy the flutes, since they posed no threat to the environment.

Except he made them. Maybe they weren't sealed with an accepted product.

The only picture we've seen of them showed them sealed:

[www.artsjournal.com image 266x198]

Well, I hate to point out the obvious, but they're hollow. We don't know if the inner area has been finished.

While I'll admit that I have absolutely no idea if that could pose a problem, do you know for a fact that it couldn't?


Not 100% but I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing versus the CBP not bothering to check or just destroying them.
 
2014-01-01 05:09:52 PM  

Slartibartfaster: captainktainer:
"just throwing fruits on the ground and stomping on them would release the bugs inside. "

There's just... nothing correct about what you're writing. At all.

Really ? not a single thing ?



I think the grammar is correct.
 
2014-01-01 05:19:18 PM  
graphics8.nytimes.com
I'm assuming the yanks are still a bit pissed over this, eh.

`Ya burn our prezeedunt's house - we burn some Canuck fella's flutes!'
 
2014-01-01 05:23:54 PM  

oldfarthenry: [graphics8.nytimes.com image 583x240]
I'm assuming the yanks are still a bit pissed over this, eh.

`Ya burn our prezeedunt's house - we burn some Canuck fella's flutes!'


Why would Americans be pissed off at the Canadians for what the British did?
 
2014-01-01 05:32:56 PM  

redmid17: oldfarthenry: [graphics8.nytimes.com image 583x240]
I'm assuming the yanks are still a bit pissed over this, eh.

`Ya burn our prezeedunt's house - we burn some Canuck fella's flutes!'

Why would Americans be pissed off at the Canadians for what the British did?


Um, because those British peeps settled Canuckitsan.
You don't actually believe white folk sprung up from North American soil like pumpkins, right? That Mormon dude with the magic hat was a little "off".
 
2014-01-01 05:38:45 PM  

oldfarthenry: redmid17: oldfarthenry: [graphics8.nytimes.com image 583x240]
I'm assuming the yanks are still a bit pissed over this, eh.

`Ya burn our prezeedunt's house - we burn some Canuck fella's flutes!'

Why would Americans be pissed off at the Canadians for what the British did?

Um, because those British peeps settled Canuckitsan.
You don't actually believe white folk sprung up from North American soil like pumpkins, right? That Mormon dude with the magic hat was a little "off".


British regulars burnt the White House. By and large they weren't the same people who settled in Canada.
 
2014-01-01 05:43:49 PM  

redmid17: oldfarthenry: redmid17: oldfarthenry: [graphics8.nytimes.com image 583x240]
I'm assuming the yanks are still a bit pissed over this, eh.

`Ya burn our prezeedunt's house - we burn some Canuck fella's flutes!'

Why would Americans be pissed off at the Canadians for what the British did?

Um, because those British peeps settled Canuckitsan.
You don't actually believe white folk sprung up from North American soil like pumpkins, right? That Mormon dude with the magic hat was a little "off".

British regulars burnt the White House. By and large they weren't the same people who settled in Canada.


I'm sorry but you're going to have to back this statement up with some census data. Y'all tend to bullsh*t a lot of your "history" down there - you know, like single-handedly winning both WWI & II via showing up in the final seconds.
 
2014-01-01 05:49:36 PM  

oldfarthenry: redmid17: oldfarthenry: redmid17: oldfarthenry: [graphics8.nytimes.com image 583x240]
I'm assuming the yanks are still a bit pissed over this, eh.

`Ya burn our prezeedunt's house - we burn some Canuck fella's flutes!'

Why would Americans be pissed off at the Canadians for what the British did?

Um, because those British peeps settled Canuckitsan.
You don't actually believe white folk sprung up from North American soil like pumpkins, right? That Mormon dude with the magic hat was a little "off".

British regulars burnt the White House. By and large they weren't the same people who settled in Canada.

I'm sorry but you're going to have to back this statement up with some census data. Y'all tend to bullsh*t a lot of your "history" down there - you know, like single-handedly winning both WWI & II via showing up in the final seconds.


www.google.com
data-cke-eol="1">
 
2014-01-01 05:52:16 PM  

redmid17: Not 100% but I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing versus the CBP not bothering to check or just destroying them.


We don't know if he sealed them with modern methods. We do know he was making replicas of old instruments, so maybe he was only covering them with oil or other historically-accurate treatments.
 
2014-01-01 05:54:57 PM  

WelldeadLink: redmid17: Not 100% but I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing versus the CBP not bothering to check or just destroying them.

We don't know if he sealed them with modern methods. We do know he was making replicas of old instruments, so maybe he was only covering them with oil or other historically-accurate treatments.


Bolded the relevant part for you. Someone who is traveling internationally with wooden instruments stowed in unsealed compartments is probably going to make them as durably as possible.
 
2014-01-01 06:08:08 PM  

redmid17: WelldeadLink: redmid17: Not 100% but I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing versus the CBP not bothering to check or just destroying them.

We don't know if he sealed them with modern methods. We do know he was making replicas of old instruments, so maybe he was only covering them with oil or other historically-accurate treatments.

Bolded the relevant part for you. Someone who is traveling internationally with wooden instruments stowed in unsealed compartments is probably going to make them as durably as possible.



That is a tremendous assumption. I won't take issue with:

"I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing."

That's your opinion. Fine. I give it 50/50. I don't know enough about such flutes or their construction to form any conclusions, but that last bit is just a bridge way too damn far. You have no idea what he is "probably" going to do.

You have no idea how various finishings affect durability, tonality, or historical authenticity... and certainly not what preferences this man has or the trade-offs he will make.

Furthermore, according to his own account, the flutes were in a hard bamboo-ish case:

"Boujemaa adds some specifics of the case:

What was in the case? they called Bamboo case
1)     11 nays (flutes) made by me some of them in Canada some in US
2)      material to make new nays in the case
3)      flight  AA 0095    Madrid to JFK
4)      time : 12/22/2013   (notice : on 12/23/2013)
5)      Reason :   nays from plants which is agricultural items (so l can't play nay)"



If they were in a hard case, durability of the flutes is a much lower consideration.
 
2014-01-01 06:20:23 PM  
I find it difficult to get enraged about this after reading that he made all 11 flutes himself, that they weren't ancient heirlooms worth millions.
 
2014-01-01 06:45:29 PM  

ReverendJynxed: 95BV5: redmid17: Meanwhile nothing in the US CBP guidelines mentions wood at all:

http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/clearing/agri_prod_inus.xml

I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?

Speaking as a former customs inspector, the wood must be sealed airtight, with paint, laquer, or varnish before importation. The purpose is to kill larvae in the wood.

Would radiation and evidence of the wood being sterilized also work?


Evidence that an item had been prepped that way would be nearly impossible to confirm, unlike self-evident sealant. This becomes particularly important for *re-importation* of wooden art and associated materials. Think wood carvings, canvas frames, etc.
 
2014-01-01 06:58:59 PM  
counterpoint: I drove from the US to Canada with beef jerky from a grocery store in the car once.  Canadians took it.  Even though they sell the same brand in their grocery stores, made in the same factory in the US.

Rules are rules, and sometimes they suck.
 
2014-01-01 07:03:52 PM  

technicolor-misfit: redmid17: WelldeadLink: redmid17: Not 100% but I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing versus the CBP not bothering to check or just destroying them.

We don't know if he sealed them with modern methods. We do know he was making replicas of old instruments, so maybe he was only covering them with oil or other historically-accurate treatments.

Bolded the relevant part for you. Someone who is traveling internationally with wooden instruments stowed in unsealed compartments is probably going to make them as durably as possible.


That is a tremendous assumption. I won't take issue with:

"I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing."

That's your opinion. Fine. I give it 50/50. I don't know enough about such flutes or their construction to form any conclusions, but that last bit is just a bridge way too damn far. You have no idea what he is "probably" going to do.

You have no idea how various finishings affect durability, tonality, or historical authenticity... and certainly not what preferences this man has or the trade-offs he will make.

Furthermore, according to his own account, the flutes were in a hard bamboo-ish case:

"Boujemaa adds some specifics of the case:

What was in the case? they called Bamboo case
1)     11 nays (flutes) made by me some of them in Canada some in US
2)      material to make new nays in the case
3)      flight  AA 0095    Madrid to JFK
4)      time : 12/22/2013   (notice : on 12/23/2013)
5)      Reason :   nays from plants which is agricultural items (so l can't play nay)"


If they were in a hard case, durability of the flutes is a much lower consideration.


True if they were in a hard case, temperature and humidity could do nothing to affect them since the hard case is vacuum sealed.

If you want to defend the CPB to death, by all means do so. I just think it more than strains credulity that this man has carried those exact or similar instruments across dozens of borders probably hundreds of times and this was the only time it mattered. The man has performed pretty much everywhere in western Europe, is a Canadian citizen, and has a residence visa in the US. Given how often he travels it would have been noticed by now.
 
2014-01-01 07:05:18 PM  

PsiChick: g4lt: FTFA "The ney flute could be made from bamboo, is that agricultural?".  Actually, yes http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/improvement/lawn-garden/4323342 .  The thing is, right then and there the reader should realize that there's more to this story than meets the eye (that, and the story is actually a press release from the alleged victim, no axe to grind there, amirite?).  First, misrepresenting bamboo as non-agricultural raises a BIG flag: dude doesn't even know about the woods he's allegedly using, which brings us to the second part: he said they COULD be made of bamboo, not that they were, sounds a LOT like a CYA.  There are a lot of woods that WILL get destroyed at the border, regardless of what it's been carved into, by Customs, most of which are because the wood in question is either an endangered species or the wood is harvested in a horribly unsustainable method, like clearcutting rainforests

That's not the sort of agricultural that the flautist was talking about. 'Agricultural' usually means 'if we let these veggies\fruits in they'll introduce a pest'. On the rare occasion it includes wood, that's usually along the lines of firewood or something else--it doesn't include flutes, which would have been covered in varnish and left in environments where pests would quickly die. Unless it can be proven that the flutes were all made of wood that was an endangered species\harvested in a way that normally prompts destruction (and I mean all), there was no logical reason to destroy the flutes, since they posed no threat to the environment.

In other words, a lawsuit should clear this up real fast.


He also said he had "material to make nays", that is, unfinished wood.  You were saying?
 
2014-01-01 07:06:07 PM  
Couldn't they have just baked the flutes to kill off any bugs or mailed them back to somewhere with fewer retards in attendance?
 
2014-01-01 07:07:28 PM  

g4lt: PsiChick: g4lt: FTFA "The ney flute could be made from bamboo, is that agricultural?".  Actually, yes http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/improvement/lawn-garden/4323342 .  The thing is, right then and there the reader should realize that there's more to this story than meets the eye (that, and the story is actually a press release from the alleged victim, no axe to grind there, amirite?).  First, misrepresenting bamboo as non-agricultural raises a BIG flag: dude doesn't even know about the woods he's allegedly using, which brings us to the second part: he said they COULD be made of bamboo, not that they were, sounds a LOT like a CYA.  There are a lot of woods that WILL get destroyed at the border, regardless of what it's been carved into, by Customs, most of which are because the wood in question is either an endangered species or the wood is harvested in a horribly unsustainable method, like clearcutting rainforests

That's not the sort of agricultural that the flautist was talking about. 'Agricultural' usually means 'if we let these veggies\fruits in they'll introduce a pest'. On the rare occasion it includes wood, that's usually along the lines of firewood or something else--it doesn't include flutes, which would have been covered in varnish and left in environments where pests would quickly die. Unless it can be proven that the flutes were all made of wood that was an endangered species\harvested in a way that normally prompts destruction (and I mean all), there was no logical reason to destroy the flutes, since they posed no threat to the environment.

In other words, a lawsuit should clear this up real fast.

He also said he had "material to make nays", that is, unfinished wood.  You were saying?


How does that affect the finished flutes.
 
2014-01-01 07:09:31 PM  

redmid17: technicolor-misfit: redmid17: WelldeadLink: redmid17: Not 100% but I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing versus the CBP not bothering to check or just destroying them.

We don't know if he sealed them with modern methods. We do know he was making replicas of old instruments, so maybe he was only covering them with oil or other historically-accurate treatments.

Bolded the relevant part for you. Someone who is traveling internationally with wooden instruments stowed in unsealed compartments is probably going to make them as durably as possible.


That is a tremendous assumption. I won't take issue with:

"I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing."

That's your opinion. Fine. I give it 50/50. I don't know enough about such flutes or their construction to form any conclusions, but that last bit is just a bridge way too damn far. You have no idea what he is "probably" going to do.

You have no idea how various finishings affect durability, tonality, or historical authenticity... and certainly not what preferences this man has or the trade-offs he will make.

Furthermore, according to his own account, the flutes were in a hard bamboo-ish case:

"Boujemaa adds some specifics of the case:

What was in the case? they called Bamboo case
1)     11 nays (flutes) made by me some of them in Canada some in US
2)      material to make new nays in the case
3)      flight  AA 0095    Madrid to JFK
4)      time : 12/22/2013   (notice : on 12/23/2013)
5)      Reason :   nays from plants which is agricultural items (so l can't play nay)"


If they were in a hard case, durability of the flutes is a much lower consideration.

True if they were in a hard case, temperature and humidity could do nothing to affect them since the hard case is vacuum sealed.

If you want to defend the CPB to death, by all means do so. I just think it more than strains credu ...


The "material to make new nays (sic)" part kind of makes your sealed part a complete falsehood, no?  Last time I heard, you finish AFTER you actually carve, hence why it's called FINISHing and not starting.
 
2014-01-01 07:13:38 PM  

g4lt: PsiChick: g4lt: FTFA "The ney flute could be made from bamboo, is that agricultural?".  Actually, yes http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/improvement/lawn-garden/4323342 .  The thing is, right then and there the reader should realize that there's more to this story than meets the eye (that, and the story is actually a press release from the alleged victim, no axe to grind there, amirite?).  First, misrepresenting bamboo as non-agricultural raises a BIG flag: dude doesn't even know about the woods he's allegedly using, which brings us to the second part: he said they COULD be made of bamboo, not that they were, sounds a LOT like a CYA.  There are a lot of woods that WILL get destroyed at the border, regardless of what it's been carved into, by Customs, most of which are because the wood in question is either an endangered species or the wood is harvested in a horribly unsustainable method, like clearcutting rainforests

That's not the sort of agricultural that the flautist was talking about. 'Agricultural' usually means 'if we let these veggies\fruits in they'll introduce a pest'. On the rare occasion it includes wood, that's usually along the lines of firewood or something else--it doesn't include flutes, which would have been covered in varnish and left in environments where pests would quickly die. Unless it can be proven that the flutes were all made of wood that was an endangered species\harvested in a way that normally prompts destruction (and I mean all), there was no logical reason to destroy the flutes, since they posed no threat to the environment.

In other words, a lawsuit should clear this up real fast.

He also said he had "material to make nays", that is, unfinished wood.  You were saying?


As redmid pointed out--and that has what to do with the price of tea in China again?
 
2014-01-01 07:13:55 PM  

g4lt: redmid17: technicolor-misfit: redmid17: WelldeadLink: redmid17: Not 100% but I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing versus the CBP not bothering to check or just destroying them.

We don't know if he sealed them with modern methods. We do know he was making replicas of old instruments, so maybe he was only covering them with oil or other historically-accurate treatments.

Bolded the relevant part for you. Someone who is traveling internationally with wooden instruments stowed in unsealed compartments is probably going to make them as durably as possible.


That is a tremendous assumption. I won't take issue with:

"I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing."

That's your opinion. Fine. I give it 50/50. I don't know enough about such flutes or their construction to form any conclusions, but that last bit is just a bridge way too damn far. You have no idea what he is "probably" going to do.

You have no idea how various finishings affect durability, tonality, or historical authenticity... and certainly not what preferences this man has or the trade-offs he will make.

Furthermore, according to his own account, the flutes were in a hard bamboo-ish case:

"Boujemaa adds some specifics of the case:

What was in the case? they called Bamboo case
1)     11 nays (flutes) made by me some of them in Canada some in US
2)      material to make new nays in the case
3)      flight  AA 0095    Madrid to JFK
4)      time : 12/22/2013   (notice : on 12/23/2013)
5)      Reason :   nays from plants which is agricultural items (so l can't play nay)"


If they were in a hard case, durability of the flutes is a much lower consideration.

True if they were in a hard case, temperature and humidity could do nothing to affect them since the hard case is vacuum sealed.

If you want to defend the CPB to death, by all means do so. I just think it more than str ...


There were flutes, which were sealed, and there were raw materials, which should have been inspected and kept or inspected and destroyed.  These are two separate things. I'll see if that sinks in. Highlighting the post I was responding to:

What was in the case? they called Bamboo case
1)     11 nays (flutes) made by me some of them in Canada some in US  --->   THESE WERE SEALED
2)      material to make new nays in the case
  ----> NOT SEALED
 
2014-01-01 07:17:21 PM  

redmid17: g4lt: PsiChick: g4lt: FTFA "The ney flute could be made from bamboo, is that agricultural?".  Actually, yes http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/improvement/lawn-garden/4323342 .  The thing is, right then and there the reader should realize that there's more to this story than meets the eye (that, and the story is actually a press release from the alleged victim, no axe to grind there, amirite?).  First, misrepresenting bamboo as non-agricultural raises a BIG flag: dude doesn't even know about the woods he's allegedly using, which brings us to the second part: he said they COULD be made of bamboo, not that they were, sounds a LOT like a CYA.  There are a lot of woods that WILL get destroyed at the border, regardless of what it's been carved into, by Customs, most of which are because the wood in question is either an endangered species or the wood is harvested in a horribly unsustainable method, like clearcutting rainforests

That's not the sort of agricultural that the flautist was talking about. 'Agricultural' usually means 'if we let these veggies\fruits in they'll introduce a pest'. On the rare occasion it includes wood, that's usually along the lines of firewood or something else--it doesn't include flutes, which would have been covered in varnish and left in environments where pests would quickly die. Unless it can be proven that the flutes were all made of wood that was an endangered species\harvested in a way that normally prompts destruction (and I mean all), there was no logical reason to destroy the flutes, since they posed no threat to the environment.

In other words, a lawsuit should clear this up real fast.

He also said he had "material to make nays", that is, unfinished wood.  You were saying?

How does that affect the finished flutes.


If the unfinished wood was the reason they got destroyed by Customs, everything in the shipment was subject to destruction.  Pests tend to hatch out of infested products and hide in finished products.  Again, we have NFI what the actual reason was, because Customs can't talk, and the farkingflautist changes his story like a chameleon changes colors: I was almost happier when he was not saying anything, then at least there was some small chance it was a misunderstanding and not the almost certain chance that he's crying wolf.
 
2014-01-01 07:19:33 PM  

redmid17: g4lt: redmid17: technicolor-misfit: redmid17: WelldeadLink: redmid17: Not 100% but I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing versus the CBP not bothering to check or just destroying them.

We don't know if he sealed them with modern methods. We do know he was making replicas of old instruments, so maybe he was only covering them with oil or other historically-accurate treatments.

Bolded the relevant part for you. Someone who is traveling internationally with wooden instruments stowed in unsealed compartments is probably going to make them as durably as possible.


That is a tremendous assumption. I won't take issue with:

"I think it's far more likely that someone who carves and plays flutes for a living did seal the entire thing."

That's your opinion. Fine. I give it 50/50. I don't know enough about such flutes or their construction to form any conclusions, but that last bit is just a bridge way too damn far. You have no idea what he is "probably" going to do.

You have no idea how various finishings affect durability, tonality, or historical authenticity... and certainly not what preferences this man has or the trade-offs he will make.

Furthermore, according to his own account, the flutes were in a hard bamboo-ish case:

"Boujemaa adds some specifics of the case:

What was in the case? they called Bamboo case
1)     11 nays (flutes) made by me some of them in Canada some in US
2)      material to make new nays in the case
3)      flight  AA 0095    Madrid to JFK
4)      time : 12/22/2013   (notice : on 12/23/2013)
5)      Reason :   nays from plants which is agricultural items (so l can't play nay)"


If they were in a hard case, durability of the flutes is a much lower consideration.

True if they were in a hard case, temperature and humidity could do nothing to affect them since the hard case is vacuum sealed.

If you want to defend the CPB to death, by all means do so. I just think it more th ...


Misattribution FTL, Alex.
 
2014-01-01 07:23:21 PM  
g4lt: If the unfinished wood was the reason they got destroyed by Customs, everything in the shipment was subject to destruction.  Pests tend to hatch out of infested products and hide in finished products.  Again, we have NFI what the actual reason was, because Customs can't talk, and the farkingflautist changes his story like a chameleon changes colors: I was almost happier when he was not saying anything, then at least there was some small chance it was a misunderstanding and not the almost certain chance that he's crying wolf.

If everything was subject to destruction, they did a pretty shiatty job because the rest of his luggage wasn't destroyed and sealed wood and plastics have no need to be destroyed, just sterilized/fumigated. Besides that's not what their own import guidelines say.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/manuals/ports/downloa ds /miscellaneous.pdf
 
2014-01-01 07:28:25 PM  

redmid17: g4lt: If the unfinished wood was the reason they got destroyed by Customs, everything in the shipment was subject to destruction.  Pests tend to hatch out of infested products and hide in finished products.  Again, we have NFI what the actual reason was, because Customs can't talk, and the farkingflautist changes his story like a chameleon changes colors: I was almost happier when he was not saying anything, then at least there was some small chance it was a misunderstanding and not the almost certain chance that he's crying wolf.

If everything was subject to destruction, they did a pretty shiatty job because the rest of his luggage wasn't destroyed and sealed wood and plastics have no need to be destroyed, just sterilized/fumigated. Besides that's not what their own import guidelines say.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/manuals/ports/downloa ds /miscellaneous.pdf


Wasn't that "the only law that could possibly have any bearing" upthread, even though the Lacey Act clearly had some bearing on destroyed wood objects?  Yeah, credibility 0 on that URL  How about you find the actual law they used this time?  Or better yet, quit speculating on what COULD have been the law when you've clearly been proven to have NFI.
 
2014-01-01 07:32:24 PM  

g4lt: redmid17: g4lt: If the unfinished wood was the reason they got destroyed by Customs, everything in the shipment was subject to destruction.  Pests tend to hatch out of infested products and hide in finished products.  Again, we have NFI what the actual reason was, because Customs can't talk, and the farkingflautist changes his story like a chameleon changes colors: I was almost happier when he was not saying anything, then at least there was some small chance it was a misunderstanding and not the almost certain chance that he's crying wolf.

If everything was subject to destruction, they did a pretty shiatty job because the rest of his luggage wasn't destroyed and sealed wood and plastics have no need to be destroyed, just sterilized/fumigated. Besides that's not what their own import guidelines say.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/manuals/ports/downloa ds /miscellaneous.pdf

Wasn't that "the only law that could possibly have any bearing" upthread, even though the Lacey Act clearly had some bearing on destroyed wood objects?  Yeah, credibility 0 on that URL  How about you find the actual law they used this time?  Or better yet, quit speculating on what COULD have been the law when you've clearly been proven to have NFI.


Quit huffing dude. The Lacey Act covers endangered plants and animals. I already talked about this, but you apparently can't or won't read. I didn't say there was "only one law." That's a figment of your imagination.

So CBP destroyed his flutes. Possible explanations have been 1) Lacey Act violation or 2) Invasive species, but we haven't seen any proof CBP suspected or proved either. Basically we have a guy whose livelihood has been ruined because CBP had a reason but was too sickish to explain why or just sickish.
 
2014-01-01 07:41:28 PM  
Are you all PROUD of yourselves? Is this the America that WAS the greatest country on the planet? (No, and no again.)
 
2014-01-01 08:51:51 PM  

redmid17: g4lt: redmid17: g4lt: If the unfinished wood was the reason they got destroyed by Customs, everything in the shipment was subject to destruction.  Pests tend to hatch out of infested products and hide in finished products.  Again, we have NFI what the actual reason was, because Customs can't talk, and the farkingflautist changes his story like a chameleon changes colors: I was almost happier when he was not saying anything, then at least there was some small chance it was a misunderstanding and not the almost certain chance that he's crying wolf.

If everything was subject to destruction, they did a pretty shiatty job because the rest of his luggage wasn't destroyed and sealed wood and plastics have no need to be destroyed, just sterilized/fumigated. Besides that's not what their own import guidelines say.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/manuals/ports/downloa ds /miscellaneous.pdf

Wasn't that "the only law that could possibly have any bearing" upthread, even though the Lacey Act clearly had some bearing on destroyed wood objects?  Yeah, credibility 0 on that URL  How about you find the actual law they used this time?  Or better yet, quit speculating on what COULD have been the law when you've clearly been proven to have NFI.

Quit huffing dude. The Lacey Act covers endangered plants and animals. I already talked about this, but you apparently can't or won't read. I didn't say there was "only one law." That's a figment of your imagination.

So CBP destroyed his flutes. Possible explanations have been 1) Lacey Act violation or 2) Invasive species, but we haven't seen any proof CBP suspected or proved either. Basically we have a guy whose livelihood has been ruined because CBP had a reason but was too sickish to explain why or just sickish.


http://www.fark.com/comments/8082378/88466471#c88466471 Ahh, right, you said there was NO law at first, then you said you could only one, then you admitted to the lacey act thing, telling us you knew all about it, ad nauseam.  Any more surprises?  Strawmen now quake in fear around you and your pyromaniac ways
 
2014-01-01 09:00:23 PM  

g4lt: redmid17: g4lt: redmid17: g4lt: If the unfinished wood was the reason they got destroyed by Customs, everything in the shipment was subject to destruction.  Pests tend to hatch out of infested products and hide in finished products.  Again, we have NFI what the actual reason was, because Customs can't talk, and the farkingflautist changes his story like a chameleon changes colors: I was almost happier when he was not saying anything, then at least there was some small chance it was a misunderstanding and not the almost certain chance that he's crying wolf.

If everything was subject to destruction, they did a pretty shiatty job because the rest of his luggage wasn't destroyed and sealed wood and plastics have no need to be destroyed, just sterilized/fumigated. Besides that's not what their own import guidelines say.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/plants/manuals/ports/downloa ds /miscellaneous.pdf

Wasn't that "the only law that could possibly have any bearing" upthread, even though the Lacey Act clearly had some bearing on destroyed wood objects?  Yeah, credibility 0 on that URL  How about you find the actual law they used this time?  Or better yet, quit speculating on what COULD have been the law when you've clearly been proven to have NFI.

Quit huffing dude. The Lacey Act covers endangered plants and animals. I already talked about this, but you apparently can't or won't read. I didn't say there was "only one law." That's a figment of your imagination.

So CBP destroyed his flutes. Possible explanations have been 1) Lacey Act violation or 2) Invasive species, but we haven't seen any proof CBP suspected or proved either. Basically we have a guy whose livelihood has been ruined because CBP had a reason but was too sickish to explain why or just sickish.

http://www.fark.com/comments/8082378/88466471#c88466471 Ahh, right, you said there was NO law at first, then you said you could only one, then you admitted to the lacey act thing, telling us you knew all ...


No I didn't say there was no law. I said it didn't look like it was mentioned in the guidelines. Let's see what that comment said:

Meanwhile nothing in the US CBP guidelines mentions wood at all:  http://cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/clearing/agri_prod_inus.xml

I suppose it could be under "other biological material" but that would is completely dead and maybe sealed. Anyone got a particular reason why CBP would destroy these?


You can run a CTRL+F on that comment if you want. I don't think you are going to find the word "law" or any definitive statement, and I even followed it up with a query from anyone who might know more. I knew what the Lacey Act is and know invasive species are prohibited. Self-crafted instruments that have crossed dozens of borders probably hundreds of times before seizure wouldn't seem to fall under those particular tracks would they?
 
2014-01-01 09:11:09 PM  
You know, I originally read the thread title as "Internationally renowned flatulist"...  I'm still a bit disappointed.
 
2014-01-01 10:00:43 PM  
So, instruments are usually insured.
As sticks or as valued instruments?

Dude, you are getting an upgrade!
 
2014-01-02 12:37:37 AM  
Seriously, this is beyond stupid.  A flute, as a finished wood object, has no threat to US agriculture.  These customs idiots have also seized antique guitars, violins, and other stringed instruments because they had, or might have had, the wood species which were used for the last 500 years to build these instruments.

When the US Customs Service focuses on musicians, they are allowing themselves to be diverted from actual problems.

Hint:  The US Citizen bringing his decades-old flute or guitar back into the country, ISN'T A farkING SECURITY THREAT YOU IDIOTS.
 
2014-01-02 01:38:45 AM  

djh0101010: Seriously, this is beyond stupid.  A flute, as a finished wood object, has no threat to US agriculture.  These customs idiots have also seized antique guitars, violins, and other stringed instruments because they had, or might have had, the wood species which were used for the last 500 years to build these instruments.

When the US Customs Service focuses on musicians, they are allowing themselves to be diverted from actual problems.

Hint:  The US Citizen bringing his decades-old flute or guitar back into the country, ISN'T A farkING SECURITY THREAT YOU IDIOTS.


They lookin for drugs.
 
2014-01-02 01:39:14 AM  
Sue, sue lots.

Generally when it comes to wood carvings you just have to pay for customs to fumigate them (if there is a risk). Seems like a case of stupid and zero tolerance combining.  They had no rights to destroy his art.
 
2014-01-02 02:47:08 AM  

AgentKGB: [images01.olx.com image 625x469]

Agricultural products...


media-2.web.britannica.com

This too.
 
2014-01-02 03:02:55 AM  

serial_crusher: counterpoint: I drove from the US to Canada with beef jerky from a grocery store in the car once. Canadians took it. Even though they sell the same brand in their grocery stores, made in the same factory in the US.


countercounterpoint: My Mexican friends tell me that customs officers are always confiscating 'treats' that they like. Just ask yourself what kind of person would work as a customs officer. The answer is a lazy scumbag who can manage to show up to work on time and reasonably sober.

I'll back that up by saying this. If you weren't lazy, you'd improve yourself and be able to get a better job. Scumbag. Think it through, you're a US CBP agent and you find 6 oz of coke in a 50 year old Mexican housekeepers stuff. You know a drug gang is forcing her to be a mule. And that if you don't overlook it, she's going to jail for ten years and the drug gang will kill one of her relatives or maybe kidnaps and sell her daughter into prostitution. You think you could deal with that and be happy? A decent person couldn't.
 
2014-01-02 03:59:44 AM  

gibbon1: You think you could deal with that and be happy? A decent person couldn't.


Fortunately for CBP, TSA, etc, right-wing authoritarianism and blind submission to authority are commonplace personality traits.   Not to mention that most people seem to have an innate tendency to abuse authority.
 
2014-01-02 11:30:56 AM  

gibbon1: serial_crusher: counterpoint: I drove from the US to Canada with beef jerky from a grocery store in the car once. Canadians took it. Even though they sell the same brand in their grocery stores, made in the same factory in the US.

countercounterpoint: My Mexican friends tell me that customs officers are always confiscating 'treats' that they like. Just ask yourself what kind of person would work as a customs officer. The answer is a lazy scumbag who can manage to show up to work on time and reasonably sober.

I'll back that up by saying this. If you weren't lazy, you'd improve yourself and be able to get a better job. Scumbag. Think it through, you're a US CBP agent and you find 6 oz of coke in a 50 year old Mexican housekeepers stuff. You know a drug gang is forcing her to be a mule. And that if you don't overlook it, she's going to jail for ten years and the drug gang will kill one of her relatives or maybe kidnaps and sell her daughter into prostitution. You think you could deal with that and be happy? A decent person couldn't.


Ahh, and the cure for all you see is,,,
Just make it "Us vs. Them" and all is bootstrappy happy happy happy.
People are so farking easy to manipulate, ask any 1%er.
 
2014-01-02 02:36:00 PM  

Odoriferous Queef: voodoohotdog: So TSA gets to pretend the U.S. is Turkey?

TSA != Customs.


They effectively are when they steal things from your luggage without repercussions.
 
2014-01-02 03:23:38 PM  

snocone: gibbon1: serial_crusher: counterpoint: I drove from the US to Canada with beef jerky from a grocery store in the car once. Canadians took it. Even though they sell the same brand in their grocery stores, made in the same factory in the US.

countercounterpoint: My Mexican friends tell me that customs officers are always confiscating 'treats' that they like. Just ask yourself what kind of person would work as a customs officer. The answer is a lazy scumbag who can manage to show up to work on time and reasonably sober.

I'll back that up by saying this. If you weren't lazy, you'd improve yourself and be able to get a better job. Scumbag. Think it through, you're a US CBP agent and you find 6 oz of coke in a 50 year old Mexican housekeepers stuff. You know a drug gang is forcing her to be a mule. And that if you don't overlook it, she's going to jail for ten years and the drug gang will kill one of her relatives or maybe kidnaps and sell her daughter into prostitution. You think you could deal with that and be happy? A decent person couldn't.

Ahh, and the cure for all you see is,,,
Just make it "Us vs. Them" and all is bootstrappy happy happy happy.
People are so farking easy to manipulate, ask any 1%er.


Machiavelle was being sarcastic, alas he also showed us how bastards can keep control no matter how bastardly they are.  Black/White, Men/Women. Straight/Gay, Citizens/Foreigners, Us/Them, Rich/Poor.  Tao people, TAO!
 
2014-01-02 03:28:48 PM  

g4lt: FTFA "The ney flute could be made from bamboo, is that agricultural?".  Actually, yes http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/improvement/lawn-garden/4323342 .  The thing is, right then and there the reader should realize that there's more to this story than meets the eye (that, and the story is actually a press release from the alleged victim, no axe to grind there, amirite?).  First, misrepresenting bamboo as non-agricultural raises a BIG flag: dude doesn't even know about the woods he's allegedly using, which brings us to the second part: he said they COULD be made of bamboo, not that they were, sounds a LOT like a CYA.  There are a lot of woods that WILL get destroyed at the border, regardless of what it's been carved into, by Customs, most of which are because the wood in question is either an endangered species or the wood is harvested in a horribly unsustainable method, like clearcutting rainforests

So? destroy the wood without getting more background information about the items. BRILLIANT !

 
2014-01-02 04:01:30 PM  

Langdon_777: snocone: gibbon1: serial_crusher: counterpoint: I drove from the US to Canada with beef jerky from a grocery store in the car once. Canadians took it. Even though they sell the same brand in their grocery stores, made in the same factory in the US.

countercounterpoint: My Mexican friends tell me that customs officers are always confiscating 'treats' that they like. Just ask yourself what kind of person would work as a customs officer. The answer is a lazy scumbag who can manage to show up to work on time and reasonably sober.

I'll back that up by saying this. If you weren't lazy, you'd improve yourself and be able to get a better job. Scumbag. Think it through, you're a US CBP agent and you find 6 oz of coke in a 50 year old Mexican housekeepers stuff. You know a drug gang is forcing her to be a mule. And that if you don't overlook it, she's going to jail for ten years and the drug gang will kill one of her relatives or maybe kidnaps and sell her daughter into prostitution. You think you could deal with that and be happy? A decent person couldn't.

Ahh, and the cure for all you see is,,,
Just make it "Us vs. Them" and all is bootstrappy happy happy happy.
People are so farking easy to manipulate, ask any 1%er.

Machiavelle was being sarcastic, alas he also showed us how bastards can keep control no matter how bastardly they are.  Black/White, Men/Women. Straight/Gay, Citizens/Foreigners, Us/Them, Rich/Poor.  Tao people, TAO!


Always amazed me that the hottest girls always went for the "bad" guys.
Same same, GI??
 
2014-01-02 04:03:38 PM  

onzmadi: g4lt: FTFA "The ney flute could be made from bamboo, is that agricultural?".  Actually, yes http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/improvement/lawn-garden/4323342 .  The thing is, right then and there the reader should realize that there's more to this story than meets the eye (that, and the story is actually a press release from the alleged victim, no axe to grind there, amirite?).  First, misrepresenting bamboo as non-agricultural raises a BIG flag: dude doesn't even know about the woods he's allegedly using, which brings us to the second part: he said they COULD be made of bamboo, not that they were, sounds a LOT like a CYA.  There are a lot of woods that WILL get destroyed at the border, regardless of what it's been carved into, by Customs, most of which are because the wood in question is either an endangered species or the wood is harvested in a horribly unsustainable method, like clearcutting rainforests

So? destroy the wood without getting more background information about the items. BRILLIANT !


What you should be realizing about is that YOU are just water and meat.
Of, and a revenue source, not to forget that.
 
2014-01-02 06:07:55 PM  

jedikinkoid: JFK... that explains so much.

CSB: The day after the Northeast blackout of 2003, we were flying out of JFK. We were luckier than most, in that our flight hadn't been delayed... but there were thousands of other disgruntled travelers who had been. The lines and the crowds were just short of insane.

In the midst of all of this, we were carrying our rather dazed and confused little hamsters in clear plastic traveling carriers. When we passed through the security checkpoint, the TSA agent asked us to open the carriers (which seemed a little silly, since you could see straight through them, but whatever). He then reached in and took the time to frisk one of them. Not pet... frisk. A hamster.


The agent was obviously part of Team Guinea Pig, and knew that hamsters are evil little shiats that would gladly strap on a suicide vest to start some carnage at the checkpoint.
 
2014-01-02 06:47:38 PM  
The customs official is being paid by any number of americas enemies  to publicly and  deliberately do vile things in the name of their state sanctioned authority for the sole purpose of disgracing the american government and people on an international stage. He is one of many many people who are loyal to silver who are doing the same things.
Stay tuned for the first episode of Rich Kids of Beverly Hills
 
2014-01-02 06:58:14 PM  

lohphat: They effectively are when they steal things from your luggage without repercussions.


Difference between customs and the TSA is customs steals your sh*t in your face.

snocone: Always amazed me that the hottest girls always went for the "bad" guys.


There are two basic strategies. Pro-social and anti-social. Pro-social involves gaining status by developing a social network you can call in to have your back. The other is being a dick with a hair trigger so that no one farks with you. Smart women go for the former, dumb chicks go for the latter. And smart women know being over attractive is a liability.
 
2014-01-02 11:31:06 PM  

PsiChick: g4lt: PsiChick: g4lt: FTFA "The ney flute could be made from bamboo, is that agricultural?".  Actually, yes http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/improvement/lawn-garden/4323342 .  The thing is, right then and there the reader should realize that there's more to this story than meets the eye (that, and the story is actually a press release from the alleged victim, no axe to grind there, amirite?).  First, misrepresenting bamboo as non-agricultural raises a BIG flag: dude doesn't even know about the woods he's allegedly using, which brings us to the second part: he said they COULD be made of bamboo, not that they were, sounds a LOT like a CYA.  There are a lot of woods that WILL get destroyed at the border, regardless of what it's been carved into, by Customs, most of which are because the wood in question is either an endangered species or the wood is harvested in a horribly unsustainable method, like clearcutting rainforests

That's not the sort of agricultural that the flautist was talking about. 'Agricultural' usually means 'if we let these veggies\fruits in they'll introduce a pest'. On the rare occasion it includes wood, that's usually along the lines of firewood or something else--it doesn't include flutes, which would have been covered in varnish and left in environments where pests would quickly die. Unless it can be proven that the flutes were all made of wood that was an endangered species\harvested in a way that normally prompts destruction (and I mean all), there was no logical reason to destroy the flutes, since they posed no threat to the environment.

In other words, a lawsuit should clear this up real fast.

He also said he had "material to make nays", that is, unfinished wood.  You were saying?

As redmid pointed out--and that has what to do with the price of tea in China again?



It's *China*, not Tchina...... there *IS* no 'T' in China. What do you think they are, Russians???
/hates it when the smart gurl shows up, makes us guys looks dum.
 
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